On Amazon the release date of bts is july 10th, but on the bts info center it says the 22nd or 23rd? Which is it?

I saw this too, and I'd like to know which it is. Is it possible that people ordering off of Amazon would receive the game sooner?

Is it possible that people ordering off of Amazon would receive the game sooner?
No.

Most sites put up dates earlier than games actually come out so people pre-order from there and they get money.

Amazon seems to always put release dates about a fortnight ahead of schedule.

Isn't that fraud?

Isn't that fraud?
Is there any legal precedent to say it is? It would need someone to take the big boys on to make such a precedent and it's unlikely that anyone would IMHO.

I would say that taking money on the promise to deliver a product at a certain date, knowing that you can'y actually deliver it until a much later date would be fraud.

However, iirc, for preorders, Amazon doesn't charge your credit card until they ship the product. So although sneaky, it's not fraud. You can always cancel your preorder once you realise their date is wrong. Also, they almost certainly have a disclaimer that dates can change, or could be wrong, etc.

If they take your money as soon as you preorder, and they are lying about the date (i.e. not just wrong, but actually lying) then it'd be fraud.

I'm not an absolute authority on the matter though.

If they take your money as soon as you preorder, and they are lying about the date (i.e. not just wrong, but actually lying) then it'd be fraud.
That's the issue though; who can prove that they're lying and not simply mistaken? You could say they're mistaken a lot - there are other forums for other products where they state that Amazon was mistaken with the date - but until there's a legal ruling made, that's all it is - a mistake.

Lying vs. mistaken... sounds familiar...

Amazon's got Clintonisms!

I would say that taking money on the promise to deliver a product at a certain date, knowing that you can'y actually deliver it until a much later date would be fraud.

However, iirc, for preorders, Amazon doesn't charge your credit card until they ship the product. So although sneaky, it's not fraud. You can always cancel your preorder once you realise their date is wrong. Also, they almost certainly have a disclaimer that dates can change, or could be wrong, etc.

If they take your money as soon as you preorder, and they are lying about the date (i.e. not just wrong, but actually lying) then it'd be fraud.

I'm not an absolute authority on the matter though.
If this is a conscious choice by them, then yes, it could fall under anti-consumer-abuse legislation, at least in the EU (I know the US legislation is much more lax on this). What they are essentially doing is enticing people to buy from them by posting a date on which they will never ship - essentially because of that an uninformed consumer would go to amazon and then another site, see that amazon's date is earlier and order from amazon - even though in practice there will be no difference in delivery.

So yes, it is consumer fraud.

That's the issue though; who can prove that they're lying and not simply mistaken? You could say they're mistaken a lot - there are other forums for other products where they state that Amazon was mistaken with the date - but until there's a legal ruling made, that's all it is - a mistake.
Well, if there is a pattern of this behaviour and not a single isolated incident, it would be relatively easy to prove they are doing this on purpose, at least enough to get them fined for consumer abuse (it would probably be harder to prove this in a criminal court, where the standard of proof is higher).

If this is a conscious choice by them, then yes, it could fall under anti-consumer-abuse legislation, at least in the EU (I know the US legislation is much more lax on this). What they are essentially doing is enticing people to buy from them by posting a date on which they will never ship - essentially because of that an uninformed consumer would go to amazon and then another site, see that amazon's date is earlier and order from amazon - even though in practice there will be no difference in delivery.

So yes, it is consumer fraud.

What part of "you can cancel up until shipment" are you not getting? You're getting all in a bunch over something that is completely non-binding. You are not billed, and can cancel the order right up until it ships.

Nothing lost. Not a day, not a dime.

What part of "you can cancel up until shipment" are you not getting? You're getting all in a bunch over something that is completely non-binding. You are not billed, and can cancel the order right up until it ships.

Nothing lost. Not a day, not a dime.

Well Technically you are losing a number of days as you are promised that you will get the game on a certian date when they know that they won't have that game to you on that day so however long a delay it is, is the amount of days of playing that game you are losing out on.

Well Technically you are losing a number of days as you are promised that you will get the game on a certian date when they know that they won't have that game to you on that day so however long a delay it is, is the amount of days of playing that game you are losing out on.

Legally, you would have to show a financial loss to win anything through the courts. In my case this could be shown to be a financial GAIN benefiting me (two additional weeks of productivity before Civ takes over my life again). :lol: :eek:

Well Technically you are losing a number of days as you are promised that you will get the game on a certian date when they know that they won't have that game to you on that day so however long a delay it is, is the amount of days of playing that game you are losing out on.

Im still mad my Axe body spray doesn't cause strange beautiful women to jump on me in public.

Amazon gets its dates from the publisher. If the publisher changes the date but doesn't alert Amazon, the date doesn't get changed on the item on Amazon. And Amazon is not going to go out of its way to verify every date for every impending item on its site.

Im still mad my Axe body spray doesn't cause strange beautiful women to jump on me in public.Strange, it works for me.

Well, in any case, I'm going to pre-order on Amazon. As long as it gets here when it's supposed to (not their date), it'll be fine.

I've already pre-ordered on Amazon, if I get the game early I might get ahead on Tech!!

At my local Walmart supercenter (yeah I know.....) they have a sign/poster/cardboardthingy out that says the 23rd. (as in a sign sent to them from firaxis marketing)

Well Technically you are losing a number of days as you are promised that you will get the game on a certian date when they know that they won't have that game to you on that day so however long a delay it is, is the amount of days of playing that game you are losing out on.

I mean you're not "losing a day" in that you wouldn't have gotten it sooner using any other method. It's just a non-binding agreement, with no money changing hands, that if they have the game on that day, they'll send it to you. If not, well, that's no different than if you hadn't ordered it at all.

To call that fraud is just someone looking way too hard to complain about something.

I lost a tank to a spearman yesterday, now THAT'S something to complain about.

It sets a bad precedent, Helfy. It's not right when companies consistently get away with misrepresenting their products even if "no one gets hurt."

What part of "you can cancel up until shipment" are you not getting? You're getting all in a bunch over something that is completely non-binding. You are not billed, and can cancel the order right up until it ships.

Nothing lost. Not a day, not a dime.

As Martinus said, laws in Europe are different from the US, everyone you should know by now. I personally don't give a damn that I can cancel the order, it shouldn't be there in the first place. Also, in the EU anyone selling a product is responsible for the price listed, its conditions and the general terms with which the product is offered/sold. So yes, it would be Amazon's duty to verify the effective release date. I doubt you can sue them for fraud, since as you rightfully say they don't take your money beforehand, but this kind of smart marketing is very much frowned upon, and the least and most likely thing that can happen to Amazon is that the Consumer Associations make a lot of noise about that and Amazon gets a lot of negative advertising, which I don't think is convenient for them if you consider there's plenty alternatives out there.

As Martinus said, laws in Europe are different from the US, everyone you should know by now. I personally don't give a damn that I can cancel the order, it shouldn't be there in the first place. Also, in the EU anyone selling a product is responsible for the price listed, its conditions and the general terms with which the product is offered/sold. So yes, it would be Amazon's duty to verify the effective release date. I doubt you can sue them for fraud, since as you rightfully say they don't take your money beforehand, but this kind of smart marketing is very much frowned upon, and the least and most likely thing that can happen to Amazon is that the Consumer Associations make a lot of noise about that and Amazon gets a lot of negative advertising, which I don't think is convenient for them if you consider there's plenty alternatives out there.

I just got an email yesterday, two days after the 2nd, from Amazon saying the release date has been updated by the manufacturer. Really not seeing the big deal here.