View Full Version : A guide to Stability.


Harrier
Jun 17, 2007, 05:36 PM
EDIT.

The fourth and final part is now posted on the second page, post number 33.
Enjoy.


STABILITY in Rhyes and Fall of Civilization..

What is stability?

Stability plays a very important role in RFC. Nearly everthing you do effects the stability of your civilization.

- The number of cities you build, there location and the buildings you construct.
- The mood of your citizens.
- The technologies you research.
- The civics and religions you adopt.
- Your economy, taking into account the population, agriculture, Industry and financial aspects.
- Your relations and contacts with other civs.
- The wars you fight.

Plus many other factors.

What impact does this have on the game?

Well a very big one.

You can not play RFC like regular Civ or Warlords. If you do you will soon be seeing you empire collapsing around your feet and your citizens clamouring to join other civilizations.

So what can we do about it?

Well if we know what factors effect stability we can plan our gameplay accordingly. The thing to remember though is that stability improvements occur overtime - not instantaneously. So do not wait until you have stability problems before acting, as you probably will be to late.

What is my stability when I start a new game?

There are three levels of gameplay. When you start a new game the stability value is set as follows:

Viceroy = Solid.
Monarch = Stable.
Emperor = Shaky.

How is stability calculated?

This is the complicated bit.

The game uses two methods to calculate stability, which when added together give your actual total stability.

These two methods are base stability and stability.

Base stability is calculated every turn on certain factors and is the main indicator of your actual stability. This value is not accumulated but is added to the permanent values each turn. The reason for this is that you can change your actions and thus cancel or reverse a previous effect.

Some base stability factors are calculated every 3 turns - so as not to slow down game play.

Stability adds some permanent modifiers, triggered once as certain events happen. These values are applied only once and are accumulated.

Each calculation (of which there are many) can produce either a zero or positive or negative value depending upon what you are doing.

Total stability is what you see in the game. This total stability is the sum of base stability and stability.

So at the start of each turn we have a total stability value which can be either positive or negative.


What is our total stability and where is it shown?


As these values are not displayed in the game, I shall refrain from using numbers where possible. But there are three ranges for positive values and three ranges for negative values.

Positive values are displayed as: Very solid, Solid and Stable.
Negative values are displayed as: Shaky, Unstable and Collapsing.

This stability is displayed in two ways.

On the main screen in the score list, next to each civ you will see one of three icons

(o) (in a bowl) represents: . .Very solid and Solid.

_o_ (flat surface) represents: Stable and Shaky.

o
( ) (on top of an upturned bowl) represents: Unstable and Collapsing.

Do not worry, the actual icons look much better.

http://img102.imageshack.us/img102/1592/examplegd4.png



Press F2 or click on the '$' Icon to enter the renamed Interior Advisor Screen (was Financial Advisor).

http://img102.imageshack.us/img102/9458/advisorxh3.png

Near the bottom of the screen you will see the Stabilty level which will have one of the following descriptions :

Very solid, Solid, Stable, Shaky, Unstable or Collapsing.

Under the description are five categories:

Cities, Civics, Economy, Expansion and Foreign.

Each category has a star rating from one to five. The stars show the stability of your civilization under each category. So at a glance you can see what part of your empire needs attention.

Each rating roughly equates to:

***** = Very solid,

**** = Solid

*** = Stable or Shaky

** = Unstable

* = Collapsing

Because some categories have lots more factors influencing stability than others it is not safe to assume that 3 stars in one category equates to the same numeric stability values as the other 3 star entries. THEY DO NOT.

So now we know what our stability rating is and what parts of our civilization are causing it.

So what can happen?

Well, you or the AI can lose a city or cities or all of your empire (except for one city if the human player).

Stable or above civs are safe. (Note: Not sure what happens when a new Civ is born - e.g. France German etc.)

Shaky civs are only at risk of losing cities when new or resurrecting civs spawn.

Unstable civs are in danger of secessions. From time to time, unhappy cities will declare independence.

Collapsing civs risk to end up in civil war. When this happens, the AI collapses and it is split into independent states and barbarians. Neighbouring civs can absorb some cities.

The human player retains one city, usually the capital, from which he can take the others back.

There is a warning before secessions and resurrection of civs.


What can we do?

The next thing is, what do we do about it.

Well that is for the future.

I intend to put together notes covering each category plus any other general factors I come across. They wont be to detailed (we do not want spoilers ruining the game) and I shall try to refrain from using numbers - just pluses and minuses. Because Rhye is bound to change values as he ruthlessly tracks down human exploits and lays traps for the unwary player.

Credits will be given to any existing posts I use as I use them.

Guess I should credit Rhye at this point.

PS. Please comment and correct any errors I have made and I will update the post accordingly.

Harrier
Jun 17, 2007, 05:37 PM
Here is Part 2. Includes changes in v197.5 and c1.475W.

Where I explain some more of the mechanics of stability before looking at what WE have to do in gameplay terms.

Stability Calculations

When is stability calculated?

Note: When showing stability changes
+/- equals a positive or negative value between 1 and 9.
++/-- a value greater than 9.

Permanent Stability

When you start a new game the permanent stability value is set as follows:

Viceroy = Solid.
Monarch = Stable.
Emperor = Shaky.

This can be increased or decreased every turn depending upon events that have taken place:

GNP changes +/- (see Demographics screen)
high combat loss -
Anarchy -
Cities built,occupied, traded,razed or lost +/-
Granting Independence - (BtS only)
Tech just researched (see below)* +/-
Certain Buildings built +
Palace moved --
Wonders built +
Projects built (not SS parts) +
Religion founded -
Corporation founded - (BtS only)
At war with rival religous civ. -


Every so often in the game the permanent stability value is checked and adjusted if too high or too low. This is to stop the runaway or dommino effect. Not just for you, but the AI also.

* Every new Tech has a + or - stability value based on its historical effect on society.

Basically the '+' techs are those that were historically beneficial in some way: Religion, Rule of Law, Education, Entertainment, Commerce, Production and Food provision amongst others.

The '-' Techs are those that historically had some negative effects on society: military units, new forms of government or polluting Industrial features etc.

So bee-lining for all the military techs and ignoring other techs, will give you long term problems.

Incase anyone notices later - these tech adjustments do not effect the categories shown in the F2 screen.


Base Stability

This is calculated in two parts - somethings every turn, others every three turns.

Calculated every turn are:

Great Depression --
Techs researched and Civics being used --
Number of cities -/--
Current combat results -/+ or --/++ (depending on all the battles)
Anarchy --
Golden Age ++


Some additional calculates are performed every third turn:

Every defensive pact ++
Every open border +
Unstable neighbour when your stable -
Having a vassal +/++
Historic Civ Size** (see below) --
Civics selected ++/-- (most are +/-)
Citizens moods --
Foreign Culture -
Economics, Industry, Agriculture and Population ++/--
Happiness ++
Number of civ contacts +/- (NEW)


** There are also checks based on historic expansion. So a civ that never became large in real life will get penalties if it expands to much. Also a civ that was historicaly large will get penalties if it does not expand enough.

At the end of all these calculations, permanent and base stability are added together and if your not stable a check is made to see if any cities are lost.

So we now know how stability is calculated. A lot of things as you can see. So do not expect to master stability quickly.


The stability categories.

We will now look at the 5 stability categories and which of the above actions effects each. Then we will get to the important bit - what can we do to change stability.

Press F2 or click on the '$' Icon to enter the renamed Interior Advisor Screen (was Financial Advisor).

Under the stability description are five categories:

Cities, Civics, Economy, Expansion and Foreign.

Each category has a star rating from one to five. The stars show the stability of your civilization under each category. So at a glance you can see what part of your empire needs attention.

So what effects each category?

Let us look at each in turn. Using the events listed above.

Note: a P indicates permanent change.

Cities

Citizens moods --
Foreign Culture -
Happiness ++
Certain Buildings built + P
Palace moved -- P
Wonders built + P
Projects built (not SS parts) + P
Religion founded - P
Corporation founded - P (BtS only)
At war with rival religous civ. - P


Civics

Civics selected ++/-- (most are +/-)
Techs researched and Civics being used --
Anarchy - P/ --



Economy

Economics, Industry, Agriculture and Population ++/--
GNP changes +/- P
Great Depression --
Techs researched and Civics being used --
Golden Age ++

Expansion

Historic Civ Size --
Number of cities -/--
Current combat results -/+ or --/++ (depending on all the battles)
Cities built,occupied, traded,razed or lost +/- P
Granting Independence - P (BtS only)


Foreign

Every defensive pact ++
Every open border +
Unstable neighbour when your stable -
Having a vassal +/++
high combat loss - P
Cities traded +/- P
Number of civ contacts +/-
Granting Independence - P (BtS only)



Note: If an event is listed twice, it does not mean it has been calculated twice in the total stability value. It is just that its effects are represented in more than one category.

Well; now that we know most, if not all the stability factors and what they change. We can start to consider what we have to do ingame.

That will be the subject of my next post.

Harrier.

P.S. I realize some of you are not interested in the mechanics of stability and just want to know what to do to counter it. So it won't be to long now.

Though understanding the mechanics, rather than just following a pre-written set of actions, like understanding Civ4 concepts, can only help improve gameplay. Besides, writing this helps me understand it.

Well Rhye, I only hope I have understood what you have written and explained it properly.

Harrier
Jun 17, 2007, 05:38 PM
Here is the third part - this just deals with Civics. A rewrite of other peoples posts with no numbers. I will cover the other categories at a later date. Need to play the latest version now. ;)
.................................................. ....................................
Civics

Civics play an important role in the stability of your empire: most of them can cause positive or negative modifiers depending on certain conditions.

Some combinations of civics and events are particularly dangerous, as they may trigger negative modifiers that last more than one turn, such as the Great Depression, a post-communist crisis, or a troubled transition to democracy. All three of them are big hits to your stability.

Fortunately, there’s a brand new civic column “Expansion” that only affects stability. So, you and the AI have a chance to plan the strengthening of the empire by choosing an appropriate civic.

The main areas that effect stability are:
Note: P refers to permanent modifiers.

Civics selected ++/-- (most are +/-)
Anarchy - P/ --
Techs researched and Civics being used --

Lets look at each in turn. Remember + is a value from 1 to 9, ++ 10 or more.

Civics selected ++/-- (most are +/-)

In this section we shall look at each civic category and its civic choices. I have also included techs researched.

The categories are: Government, Legal, Labor, Economy, Religion and Expansion.


Government

Despotism

If stability is Collapsing (and below mid range for collapsing) you get a boost, which may move you to just below Unstable ++

Combined with civic Bureaucracy -
If you have the tech Democracy -
If you have the tech democracy, and switch to universal suffrage, you suffer for a number of turns. --

Hereditary Rule

If stability is Collapsing, caps it just below Unstable ++
Combined with civic Vassalage +

If you have the tech Democracy -
If you have the tech democracy, and switch to universal suffrage, you suffer for a number of turns. --

Representation

If stability Solid (and in top half of range) +
Combined with civic Bureaucracy +
Less than 3 cities (+ per city, capped) +

More than 3 cities (- per city, capped) -
If you have the tech Democracy -

Police State

If stability is Collapsing (and below mid range for collapsing) you get a boost, which may move you to Unstable ++
Combined with civic Nationhood ++
For every 5 cities + (capped at 50 cities) ++
Combined with civic State Property +
If stability is less than solid and you have a jail the city gets extra stability +

If you have the tech Democracy -
Combined with civic Free Speech --
If you have the tech democracy, and switch to universal suffrage, you suffer for a number of turns. --

Universal Suffrage

If stability Very Solid (and in bottom quarter of the range for Very Solid) ++
If you have the tech Democracy (no penalty) equivelant to +

Combined with civic Barbarism -
If you have the tech democracy, and switch from despotism, hereditary rule, or police state you suffer for a number of turns. --

Government Notes.

Switching from representation to universal suffrage causes no penalty. If you had enough time and assuming you are stable enough. You could avoid the penalty by switching from one of the despotic civics to representation and then to universal suffrage when you are able to switch again.

Hereditary Rule and Vassalage during the middle age is a good combination. +
But they give no bonus in any other era.


Legal

Barbarism

Combined with civic Universal Suffrage -
If you have the tech Liberalism -

Vassalage

Combined with civic Hereditary Rule +
Select in Medieval era +

Select outside Medieval era -
Combined with civic State Property -
If you have the tech Liberalism -

Bureaucracy

Combined with civic Representation +
5 or less cities +

6 or more cities (- per city, capped) -
Combined with civic Despotism -
If you have the tech Liberalism -

Nationhood

Combined with civic Police State ++
Combined with civic Mercantilism +
For each civ you are at war with +

Combined with civic Pacifism --
If you have the tech Liberalism -

Free Speech

If you have the tech Liberalism (no penalty) equivelant to +
Combined with civic Police State --

Legal Notes.

Hereditary Rule and Vassalage during the middle age is a good combination. +
But they give no bonus in any other era.


Labor

Tribalism

If you have the tech Democracy -

Slavery

If you have the tech Bronze Working, until you get the tech Constitution +

If you have the tech Democracy -

Serfdom

If you have the tech Democracy -

Caste System

Combined with civic State Property -
If you have the tech Democracy -

Emancipation

Combined with civic Free Religion +

Combined with civic Theocracy -
If you have the tech Democracy (no penalty) equivelant to +

Labor Notes.


Economy

Decentralization

If you have the tech Economics -

Mercantilism

Combined with civic Nationhood +

Free Market

Free market has the possibility of getting a great depression, --
(This happens if you have excessive production over commerce.)

State Property

Combined with civic Police State +

Combined with civic Caste System -
Combined with civic Vassalage -
If you have the tech communism and switch from state property, you suffer for a number of turns. --

Environmentalism

No effects on stability.

Economy Notes.


]Religion

Paganism

No effects on stability.

Organized Religion

With a state religion, every other religion in the city results in a penalty for that city. -

Theocracy

Combined with civic Emancipation -
With a state religion, every other religion in the city results in a penalty for that city. -

Pacifism

Combined with civic Nationhood --

Free Religion

Combined with civic Emancipation +

]Religion Notes.


Expansion

This is a brand new civic column that only affects stability.

Subjugation

No effects on stability.

Viceroyalty

For every Vassal Civ* +

Resettlement

For every city built 15 or more tiles from the Capitol. +

Occupation

On capturing a city. +
If at war no penalty for occupied cities due to citizens anger, religion or foreign culture. Equivalent to +/++

Commonwealth

No penalty from low imports/exports. Equivalent to +
No penalty from low economy/population ratios. Equivalent to +

Expansion Notes.

The commonwealth civic prevents new negative modifiers. It doesn't eraze the existing ones.

.............................

Anarchy - P/ --

When you change civics you get a period of anarchy (except when you have the Unique Power to prevent it).

Your permanent stability is effected by anarchy. -

During the period of anarchy your stability takes large drop. --

Anarchy Notes

If your stability is UNSTABLE the period of anarchy will drop you into the COLLAPSING range.
Having a golden age raises stability, so changing civics in a golden age may prevent this.

BtS only. There is no anarchy when changing civics or religion in a golden age.



.................................................

Techs researched and Civics being used --

These are also covered in the "Civics" section above.

Every new Tech has a + or - stability value based on its historical effect on society.

Basically the '+' techs are those that were historically beneficial in some way: Religion, Rule of Law, Education, Entertainment, Commerce, Production and Food provision amongst others.

The '-' Techs are those that historically had some negative effects on society: military units, new forms of government or polluting Industrial features etc.

Some techs have additional effects:

Democracy unless you switch to Universal Suffrage and Emancipation. -
Democracy and switching to Universal Suffrage from Despotism, Hereditary Rule or Police State -- (for a number of turns).
Liberalism unless you switch to Free Speech. -
Bronze Working (before Constitution is researched) and using civic Slavery. +
Economics and using civic Decentralization -
Communism and switching from State Property to a different civic -- (for a number of turns).

.....................................

Credits.

Shadow Lord, Wolfigor for their guides, Whitefire for his posts explaining things, and of course Rhye. :)

I used details from posts made by these guys - thanks.


Note final part is post 33 on page 2.

Edungeon
Jun 17, 2007, 05:54 PM
Good Idea, since a lot of people have problems deling with Stability. Just one suggestion: more screenshots! they are good for the eye and don't scary a player that is going to read a guide with a lot lines and no pictures :).

Oh, if you want i can take the ss... o/

Rhye
Jun 17, 2007, 06:03 PM
Keep up the great job! This will end up in the pedia once completed.
I think you should help yourself grabbing info from the current incomplete page
http://wikirhye.wikidot.com/stability
and then replace it with numberless descriptions

Harrier
Jun 17, 2007, 06:35 PM
Good Idea, since a lot of people have problems deling with Stability. Just one suggestion: more screenshots! they are good for the eye and don't scary a player that is going to read a guide with a lot lines and no pictures :).

Oh, if you want i can take the ss... o/

If you can do that it would be great.

I am busy trying to figure out how it all works at the moment, plus how to explain it without being to complicated.

I have lots of scribbled noted plus copies of others posts.

If you can post some screenshots I will try to add them to the post. Never done that before but I guess it is not rocket science. :)

Edungeon
Jun 17, 2007, 07:54 PM
well, here something that i got in a couple of minutes:

The Advisor: http://img102.imageshack.us/img102/9458/advisorxh3.png
http://img102.imageshack.us/img102/9458/advisorxh3.png

And an example of the icons: http://img102.imageshack.us/img102/1592/examplegd4.png

http://img102.imageshack.us/img102/1592/examplegd4.png

Harrier
Jun 19, 2007, 06:39 PM
Part 2 added to the second post.

DUH !?! :lol:

Well Rhye beat me to it, a new update. :goodjob:

This thread does not YET include any possible changes Rhye has made in the new version.

Rhye
Jun 19, 2007, 06:56 PM
Harrier, you did a great job.
In Foreign category you wrote
Cities built,occupied, traded,razed or lost +/-
but actually is
Cities traded +/-

In the new version the only important change is (speaking in this guide's terms):
Number of contacts +/-
checked every 3 turns and in the Foreign category.

More the contacts, more the penalty.
It was added to help East Asian civs, who having less contacts, tend to develop less trade and get a lower Economy rating.

Edungeon
Jun 19, 2007, 07:00 PM
I didn't know about stability in techs! good to know!

Keep up the good work! :goodjob:

Rhye
Jun 19, 2007, 07:20 PM
And tech is +/- depending on its historical effect on society - not a matter or military/civilian

blackheart
Jun 19, 2007, 10:27 PM
What exactly are the historic civ sizes for each civ? Like, as Mongolians, do I become dangerously unstable once I enter Europe or India? It seems to me that if you step outside of historical norms at all (such as American conquering Germany) your civilization will descend into civil war, even when you're winning the war and have a massive military and otherwise.

Could there be an option to disable stability factors in our game or maybe have the chance to tune it down given that it isn't very well documented ingame?

Whitefire
Jun 19, 2007, 11:39 PM
What exactly are the historic civ sizes for each civ? Like, as Mongolians, do I become dangerously unstable once I enter Europe or India? It seems to me that if you step outside of historical norms at all (such as American conquering Germany) your civilization will descend into civil war, even when you're winning the war and have a massive military and otherwise.

America has regions in Europe that it can occupy. I would have already put together a map for this, but Rhye told me not to. Besides, there's no oil in Europe and, if you take land there, you'll be choked by the culture of 4-5 other civs. Best stay out of that quagmire.

Could there be an option to disable stability factors in our game or maybe have the chance to tune it down given that it isn't very well documented ingame?

Play on Viceroy.

blackheart
Jun 20, 2007, 12:35 AM
America has regions in Europe that it can occupy. I would have already put together a map for this, but Rhye told me not to. Besides, there's no oil in Europe and, if you take land there, you'll be choked by the culture of 4-5 other civs. Best stay out of that quagmire.

Thanks for your opinions, but I don't have a choice with Germany finishing up spaceship components. Regardless, we should know where the invisible line is so we don't cross it and have our empires crumble. And don't presume to tell me how to play my game.

Play on Viceroy.

Then then AI is tremendously more .

I feel that all of these invisible boundaries and modifiers regarding "historic" civ sizes really hampers our games. After all history isn't perfectly simulated and many points in history hang on a thread. For example, what would Turkey have been like if they won at Manzikert, or if the Union lost at Antietam, or if China won the battle of Talon River, etc etc? I see why historic civ sizes are emulated, but they're rather pointless if we are to play our own game and chart our own course in history. At least make it so they don't cause our empires to collapse once we've extended past the historic civ size.

Whitefire
Jun 20, 2007, 01:22 AM
I see why historic civ sizes are emulated, but they're rather pointless if we are to play our own game and chart our own course in history. At least make it so they don't cause our empires to collapse once we've extended past the historic civ size.

Why are you blaming historical boundaries when you don't know where they lie? Regardless, Rhye has explicitly stated that he does not want insanely large empires that control 1/3 or more of the land except for rare cases.

Thanks for your opinions, but I don't have a choice with Germany finishing up spaceship components.

Build ICBMs, nuke the Krauts, bribe an AI into declaring war.

LuKo
Jun 20, 2007, 04:40 AM
I think that Rhye should change economy system- economy should benefit great empires and only stability and long borders should "fight" with it.

Harrier
Jun 20, 2007, 06:55 AM
Regardless, we should know where the invisible line is so we don't cross it and have our empires crumble.

If you knew what and where the boundries were - there would be no point in having them. As most players would exploit this information, while the AI would still be penalised. Remember it effects both human and AI civs.

After all history isn't perfectly simulated and many points in history hang on a thread.

Thats the point of the game many points in history do hang on a thread. And we now have a chance to try and change it.

Considering the whole design and programming team consists of ONE person - Rhye. I think he has done a brilliant job of trying to simulate history. Apparently, so does Firaxis - hence its' inclussion in BTS.

I feel that all of these invisible boundaries and modifiers regarding "historic" civ sizes really hampers our games.

This mod is a game based on the simulation of history. Hence the name "Rhye's and FALL of Civilization".

That is also why we have the Historic Victory conditions in addition to the standard ones.

If you go for the standard ones (except conquest - this option should really be removed from the Victory screen.) you just have to play the game differently from normal Civ4. No more bulldozing all the other civs into submission.

It is not a mod that just uses an Earth map, with extra units, extra techs, extra buildings etc and some gameplay additions so you can try and conquer the entire world.

There are plenty of those available and some are very good.

With this game if you want to go for Domination, I am sure it can be achieved. You just have to take your time. Build up your stability, expand a little stopping when you become Shaky. Rebuild your stability and expand again etc.

Choosing the right civs to begin with also helps.

The Q-Meister
Jun 20, 2007, 11:16 PM
Very good advice and info on the Stability Question. Keep up the good work.

As I stated in other threads though, for me, more advice on the civics (beyond the obvious mismatches like Police State/Free Speech) it would be greatly appreciated as that is the only aspect of Stability I really am confused about. In the post-medieval eras my Civic rating on the stability screen crashes to 1 star almost the entire game despite having my overall stability at times being stable or even solid.

So any increased attention on those pesky civics, particularly in the later eras, would be very helpful for me and I'm sure others as well.

Riker
Jun 21, 2007, 03:56 AM
It seems that you lose stability when razing cities. And, playing as the mongols, I'm razing a lot (still not understanding how to make their up work, though...)

blackheart
Jun 21, 2007, 10:50 AM
Why are you blaming historical boundaries when you don't know where they lie? Regardless, Rhye has explicitly stated that he does not want insanely large empires that control 1/3 or more of the land except for rare cases.

Because it doesn't make sense to my why I can't conquer outside of my historical norms.

Build ICBMs, nuke the Krauts, bribe an AI into declaring war.

Since you keep insisting on telling me how to play my game, let me spell it out for you: nukes are banned, Germans are too powerful for anyone to go to war with, etc.

blackheart
Jun 21, 2007, 10:54 AM
If you knew what and where the boundries were - there would be no point in having them. As most players would exploit this information, while the AI would still be penalised. Remember it effects both human and AI civs.

Yet AIs seem to know where my undefended workers and workboats are, and when I move units and there are weaknesses in my defense? Yes, exploitation is part of the game on both parts. There should at least be some sort of indicator so I know that if I take a certain city my civilization will be thrown into chaos. The stars don't do a good enough job of telling me that I should stop a certain action.

Thats the point of the game many points in history do hang on a thread. And we now have a chance to try and change it.

Doesn't seem like it when I can't invade another civ without going unstable.

Considering the whole design and programming team consists of ONE person - Rhye. I think he has done a brilliant job of trying to simulate history. Apparently, so does Firaxis - hence its' inclussion in BTS.

Truth. No argument there.

This mod is a game based on the simulation of history. Hence the name "Rhye's and FALL of Civilization".

Choosing the right civs to begin with also helps.

This is my point, I don't get why my civilization would FALL when I'm the strongest, most cultured, etc. after conquering a weaker civ.

Whitefire
Jun 21, 2007, 11:21 AM
Since you keep insisting on telling me how to play my game, let me spell it out for you: nukes are banned, Germans are too powerful for anyone to go to war with, etc.

Heh, I'm not telling you how to play, I'm pointing out there are other options to solve your problem besides "I have to take land". Since you apparently don't care what other people think, I'll stop responding to your posts.

blackheart
Jun 21, 2007, 11:24 AM
Heh, I'm not telling you how to play, I'm pointing out there are other options to solve your problem besides "I have to take land". Since you apparently don't care what other people think, I'll stop responding to your posts.

You're rehashing material to me that I already know and have tried. I wouldn't have posted my frustration if there were other options to solve my dilemma.

Rhye
Jun 21, 2007, 05:54 PM
fyi, there is no "invisible line that if you cross it you're dead". You lose stability while you overexpand very gradually and with a certain margin of tolerance.
Consider the AI has no kind of stability bonus: how can they perform so good? In many cases a European civ different from Spain takes on all Mexico or Peru (which are not supposed to be their land), but still remains stable

ifj.fekete
Jun 22, 2007, 12:47 AM
Question: China, 4 cities, 1st in culture, 1st in gnp, within hystorical borders - no foreigners within these borders, high income, slavery + basic civics.

Stability: everything has 3 stars, except economy (???) which only has 2. Economy shaky since a while (don't know why). Changing civics with one turn of anarchy turned 3 of my 4 cities into independent cities.

1. Could someone tell me why have I lost my cities?
2.1. Why is my economy unstable? I have high income, a few turns ago I discovered calendar, so I doubled my income in recent turns, but on the other hand I had some fall in my production (the '-' in the production was lower than the '+' in my income). Is it possible that my economy is unstable due to these changes?
2.2. What should I do to avoid such situations?
2.3. Could it be that I will be confronted with the same problem when my cities will start to produce culture or science?

The Q-Meister
Jun 23, 2007, 01:57 PM
Someone mentioned that a highly specialist economy also hurts stability. Maybe you should look into that.

tommybabs
Jun 23, 2007, 06:13 PM
I just tried playing India on the 1.475 version. Had 2/3 objectives completed, had about 400 gold and 13-15 gpt, even runnning at 100% science. For some reason my economy was shaky, then I actually lost all my cities apart from Dehli! Have I missed something on how the stability on the economy works? The rest of my stability indicators were 3 stars, apart from civics (4 stars).

LuKo
Jun 24, 2007, 01:50 AM
Someone mentioned that a highly specialist economy also hurts stability. Maybe you should look into that.

I thought that Rhye already fixed it.

Pilotis
Jun 24, 2007, 02:22 AM
"That will be the subject of my next post"

Whitefire......Any chance soon.....?

ifj.fekete
Jun 25, 2007, 12:44 AM
I tried to avoid specialists, tried to balance the gold and hammer production growth (to avoid drops) while improving constantly and at the 100. turn my economy only had two stars. After that (realizing that my original strategy won't work) I had many many specialists. And my economy remained 2 stars for a 200 turns (I ended my game at that stage). It made no difference to me if using or avoiding high number of specialists.

Harrier
Jun 25, 2007, 07:22 PM
This is posted on the first page - third post down.

It only covers the civics part of stability. A rewrite of the notes posted by Shadow Lord and Wolfigor but with no numbers - as these do change.

To use the guide.

If you are thinking of changing to a particular civic or are wondering why your stability, is bad look at the relevent civics.

The guide shows the good and bad aspects of running that civic.

Enjoy.

Rhye
Jun 26, 2007, 03:24 AM
Great, I think you should all thank Harrier for this. Me too...I'll probably use this guide the day I start playing :crazyeye:

Anyway, I've added the page to the wiki! (and I changed/moved a few paragraphs too).
So please from now on update the wiki too, or mark your changes here so that I can export them.

Harrier
Jul 02, 2007, 08:24 AM
Cities Category

These are checked for each city:

Citizens moods --
Foreign Culture -
Happiness ++
Buildings +/-- P
Religion - P

..................................

Citizens moods --

In the city screen, mouse over the unhappy faces to see the citizens moods:

Angry population. -
A city religion is the same as your opponents state religion during war. -
Hurry (whipping) Anger. -
Anger from lack of military units in the city. -
War weariness anger. -

These city penalties aren't applied directly, they are accumulated for each city. Each city is checked until a cap is reached -
A total value for all cities is also capped. --

Note: The above does not apply if you are at war and have occupied the city and you are running the Occupation civic.

.............................

Foreign Culture -

If there is foreign culture in the city:

Your culture is zero. -

You have culture and any foreign culture that exceeds about 15% of your culture -
You have culture and the civic nationhood, any foreign culture that exceeds about 5% of your culture -

Note: The check on their culture is relative to yours, NOT to the total.

Example: You have 16% culture in a city. CivA has 80% total culture and CivB has 4% total culture.

Both trigger a penalty because:

CivA has 500% of your culture.
CivB has 25% of your culture.

The percentage is lower for nationhood because of the nationalistic feelings that trigger unrest.

........................

Happiness ++

Average happiness from all cities +/-

If your approval rate (from the demographics page) is more than 70, you get a bonus, if less than 60 you get a penalty.

..............................

Buildings +/-- P

Building a courthouse. +
Building a jail. +
Building a jail while running the civic police state. +
Building a wonder. +
Building a great project (other than spaceship parts) +
Building another palace. ++

Corporation founded - (BtS only)

Moving the original palace. --

..........................

Religion -

If you are using theocracy or organized religion, each religion other than the state religion in a city results in a penalty. -

Founding a religion. - P

If a religion which isn't your state religion spreads to a city and you are at war with a civ whose state religion is that religion. - P

......................................

Economy Category

The economy rating, regardless of the type of economy you create, is heavily influenced by growth. The more GNP and production grows, the more stability improves. When you stop or shrink, it decreases.

Economics, Agriculture and Population ++/--
GNP changes +/- P
Great Depression --
Techs researched and Civics being used --
Golden Age ++

.................................................. ...................

Economics, Agriculture and Population ++/--

Amount of food per population. +/-
The more people you have relative to agriculture the worse the penalty.

Amount of gold (Economy) per population. +/-
The more people you have relative to gold the worse the penalty.

Running the Commonwealth civic, No penalty from low gold per population. Equivalent to +.

Imports/Exports are your trade with other nations:

High level of imports/exports. +/++
Low level imports/exports. -
No imports/exports. -

Running the Commonwealth civic, No penalty from low imports/exports. Equivalent to +.

Note. Economy is the GNP(gold) on the demographs page.

..............................................

Adjusted GNP changes +/- P

The GNP (Gross National Product) in Civ4 just deals with the commerce side of the game. In RFC commerce, industry and agriculture are taken into account. Each is given a weighting added together then the average value calculated. This is the GNP used for stability purposes. It is checked every 3 turns and capped.

if the GNP drops. -
Any GNP loss greater than 20 will get the same penalty.

if the GNP rises above a preset value. +
Any GNP gain greater than 35 will get the same bonus.

Note: To balance the gameplay, GNP has to rise above a preset value before gaining any stability bonuses. To avoid these permanent penalties - you need to keep your GNP growing.

.................................

Great Depression --

Running the civic free market can cause a Great Depression in certain situations.

A Great Depression is triggered when industrial output is far greater than your economy and your GNP is increasing. It also takes into account the population size. So the larger the population the larger the differance can be before a depression is triggered.

Example:
If a differance of 10 triggered a depression with a population of 1 million. You would need a difference of 20 for 2 million population, but only 5 differance for 1/2 million population. Remember you must be running the free market civic.

A Great Depression can not occur during a golden age.

Suffering a Great Depression. -- (for a number of turns)

You have open borders with a civ suffering from a great depression. --
(that turn only) The penalty is only applied for the first civ and only if you are not in a Great Depression.

After a number of turns you can break out of a great depression, if the industrial difference decreases and your GNP has not increased, or you have switched away from the free market civic.

.................................................. ...............

Techs researched and Civics being used --

If you have researched the tech communism and switch from state property, you suffer a penalty for a number of turns. --

............................

Golden Age ++

Having a Golden Age. ++

Note: A Great Depression can not occur during a golden age.

BtS only. There is no anarchy when changing civics or religion in a golden age.



....................................

Expansion Category

You can expand your empire either peacefully, by building cities on unclaimed land or by force of arms. But becareful expand to quickly and you will pay the price.

The stability modifiers effecting expansion are:

Historic Civ Size --
Number of cities -/--
Cities built,occupied, traded,razed or lost +/- P
Current combat results -/+ or --/++ (all the battles this turn)

There is also a brand new civic column Expansion, that only affects stability. A few other civics effect expansion too. So you have a chance to plan the strengthening of your empire by choosing the appropriate civics.

............................

Historic Civ Size

There are checks based on historic expansion. So a civ that never became large in real life will get penalties if it expands to much. Also a civ that was historicaly large will get penalties if it does not expand enough.

It works by counting:

- how many other civ's cities are in your core area.
- how many plots you have outside of the area of historical maximum expansion (colonies included).

These values are used in some formulas to add a negative base modifier to expansion. It balances out the (usually positive) modifiers you get founding and conquering cities.

An important part of keeping stability is taking care not to over-expand. If you try to do a large fast land-grab conquest, or a settler spam, you'll find yourself with an empire larger than your government is capable of handling. You don't want to expand too fast, but you don't want other civs to grab all the good land either, so it's important to find a good balance.

Note: This does not stop civ's expanding outside their historic areas - you just have to plan your expansion carefully taking into account your stability. If you are Shakey or worse you are liable to lose some of those cities to sessesion or a civ re-spawning.

If you want a big empire choose a civ that did: Russia, America, Germany, France, Spain, England, China,...

............................

Number of cities

The number of cities you own effects your stability rating. The bigger your empire the more unstable it becomes. There is no penalty for the first 7 cities. After that, every additional city has a negative stability impact. This initially only cancels out the bonus for building cities and only becomes a real penalty when you get near 20 cities.

The thing to be careful about is that the stability penalty per city increases when certain limits are reached. These limits are approximately every 10 cities.

Examples of the stability effect that the number of cities have are:

7 cities = no impact.
10 cities = - small impact.
15 cities = - the total effect is equivalent to half a stability level drop.
20 cities = -- the total effect is equivalent to one stability level drop.
25 cities = -- the total effect is equivalent to two stability level drops.
30 cities = -- the total effect is equivalent to three stability level drops.
35 cities = -- the total effect is equivalent to four stability level drops.
40 cities = -- the total effect is equivalent to six stability level drops.

The above example just shows the total effect of a lot of cities. It is calculated on the actual number of cities you have.

There is also a research penalty for giga empires. This way there won’t be one leader with 30+ cities and far far ahead in technology.

Some Civics are linked to the number of cities.

Representation: Less than 3 cities (+ per city, capped) +
Representation: More than 3 cities (- per city, capped) -
Bureaucracy: 5 or less cities +
Bureaucracy: 6 or more cities (- per city, capped) -
Bureaucracy and Representation combined +
Police State: For every 5 cities + (capped at 50 cities) ++

Note: these civics do not effect the Expansion category.

................................................

Cities built,occupied, traded,razed or lost P

These are permanent modifiers:

For every city you build +
With Resettlement civic, for every city built 15 or more tiles from the Capitol. +
For every city acquired through trade, congress or conquest. +
With Occupation civic on capturing and not razing a city. +
On aquiring a Capitol city. +

For every city lost through a civ birth or reserrection. -

When you lose a city other than through civ birth or reserrection, you get two penalties/bonuses. One based on the number of cities and one on the way it was lost.

If less than 15 cities: (the fewer cities, the higher the penalty) -
With a smaller empire the loss of a city is more traumatic to the people.

If more than 15 cities you get a bonus (the more cities the higher the bonus) +/++
The bonus reflects the fact that larger empires are more difficult to control and losing cities is not so traumatic to the population. Some may not even know where that city was located. Also fewer cities over time make administration easier.

The above is then adjusted by:

For every city lost through trade, or conquest. -
If city is razed. -
Granting Independence - (BtS only)

Losing the capitol. --

Note: When you capture a city, you might find that much of the impact on your stability comes from having lots of unhappiness due to citizens anger, religion or foreign culture - except when running the Occupation civic.

........................................

Current combat results

Every victory gives a bonus and every loss twice that as a penalty. These are added together for each turn. The total which is capped, effects the Expansion category. To many losses and your expansion capability is lowered.

Total combat Victory/losses. ++/-- (half is added to next turn)

If the total is more 4 points +/-, it is halfed and carried over to the next turn. So losing a lot of units will effect stability for a number of turns. No more mass suicide attacks to take that hill city. Well not if you want to remain stable.

Note: The foreign category also suffers a small permanent penalty due to high combat losses.

.............................

Foreign Category

This covers everything regarding foreign affairs..... mainly diplomatic agreements, plus other less important factors.

Defensive pacts ++
Open borders +
Unstable neighbour when your stable -
Having a vassal -/+
Number of civ contacts +/-
high combat loss - P
Cities traded +/- P

.................................

Defensive pacts ++

Every defensive pact signed. ++

...........................

Open borders +

Every Open Border agreement. +

.................................................. ..........

Unstable neighbour when your stable -

If a neighboring civ's stability is unstable or collapsing and yours is stable or better. -

This penalty will only be applied once regardless of how many neighboring civs are unstable.

............................

Having a vassal -/+

For each vassal the civ has. +/-
The value depends on the Vassal's stability.

The civic viceroyalty gives a bonus for every vassal. +

..............................................

Number of civ contacts +/-

When you have gained a high number of contacts, with other civs you start to incur a penalty. -
This penalty increases as the number of contacts increase.

Note: This helps East Asian civs, who having less contacts, tend to develop less trade and get a lower Economy rating.

Remember having Embassies allows you to maintain contact. Otherwise over time you will lose contacts with other civs.

..................................

high combat loss - P

Suffering just above negative combat stability this turn. You suffer a small permanent penalty. -

This will happen even if you have lost fewer units than the enemy. Your troops losses are valued twice that of the enemy. So if you kill 8 enemy units, but lose 6 of your own. This is considered high combat loss.

Note: The Expansion category suffers a greater temporary penalty due to combat losses.

............................

Cities traded - P

If the city is traded away. -
Granting Independence - (BtS only)

Final Note.

Some penalties or bonuses may seem to be odd choices to the human player. The thing to remember is that some are there to help the AI civs in the game. So that you can play a more realistic and enjoyable game.

Harrier
Jul 02, 2007, 08:51 AM
The above post no. 33 is the fourth and final part of my guide to stability.

It covers the four remaining categories shown in the F2 screen.

Remenber;

+/- indicates a value less than 10.
++/-- indicates a value greater than 10.
p is a permanent modifier.

It is all new content and follows on from the previous three posts at the start of this thread.

I will leave it to Rhye to update the Wiki. As this will give him the opportunity to correct any false assumptions and remove anything he may consider a spoiler. Although I have tried to avoid doing that.

Well enjoy reading it and I hope it does not confuse you to much. :) ;)


Harrier.

Whitefire
Jul 02, 2007, 09:25 AM
The threshold is lower for nationhood because of the nationalistic feelings.

Should read "Higher" not "Lower".

The Q-Meister
Jul 02, 2007, 10:04 AM
For me at least, the stability rating has become much more sensible to me with the latest version of the game, especially with civics; I'm now seeing 4 star civics regularly and I stay constant at 3 stars most of the game. Still don't know how to get to 5 stars for civics but I'll accept this as being a big improvement than before when I constantly was getting 1 and 2 stars.

Thanks for the advice here though, it is helpful and I will try to remember as much as I can as I continue to play this great mod.

Harrier
Jul 02, 2007, 11:29 AM
Should read "Higher" not "Lower".


See what youy mean. :)

Meant to write percentage.

Rhye
Jul 05, 2007, 04:11 AM
last part added to the wiki

Barak
Jul 05, 2007, 07:53 AM
How does one increase GNP? My economy has 1 star as India in the mid 18th Century. I have an economy that is in the green per turn. I am trading all my extra resources for whatever is available. I run Mercantilism with HR as I have not researched Representation or Democracy.

Based on the guide, increasing my GNP is necessary, but how do I do it?

Whitefire
Jul 05, 2007, 10:00 AM
The Economy rating is based on growth, not size or strength of the economy. This means you need to increase the amount of food/hammers/commerce generated every turn, over several stability checks. The easiest way is to run Free Market. Your commerce will shoot through the roof and increase your economy score. Also, settling a Specialist instead of bulbing it will likewise increase your economy rating.

Also, once you get Democracy you can switch to Emancipation and begin cottaging farms. This will cause a temporary decrease in your economy score, but will improve it over time. Since it takes 50+ turns for the cottages to fully mature, your economy will consistently grow at a slow burn for many years, keeping your Economy rating up.

Harrier
Jul 27, 2007, 08:01 AM
Beyond the Sword and stability.

The only change to stability in BtS is:

Founding a corporation in a city gives a small negative penalty to permanent stability. -

There is no anarchy when changing civics or religion during a golden age.


I have updated the Wiki stability guide to include these additions.

Whitefire
Jul 27, 2007, 09:56 AM
You'll also want to note that letting a city go independent in the F1 screen counts as losing a city.

Harrier
Jul 27, 2007, 11:31 AM
You'll also want to note that letting a city go independent in the F1 screen counts as losing a city.



Done.

10 char.

kendric
Jul 28, 2007, 08:19 AM
Is it expected to get the new civ taking over one of your city things happen when your empire is rated at stable?

The Q-Meister
Jul 31, 2007, 10:56 AM
Yea stability doesn't matter in those situations; if a new civ emerges and your cities are in its "core area" they will be flipped, or ask to be flipped..

Grotius
Jul 31, 2007, 01:08 PM
Great mod! One question about stability and techs. I gather there's no in-game info on which techs might cost us stability? I don't mind this -- I kinda like having to figure things out for myself -- but I want to be sure.

Sergiodx
Sep 05, 2012, 08:31 PM
I'm translating this guide to stability to brazilian portuguese. If someone wants to post it, a help would be apreciated, since I don't know how to do it.

Harrier
Sep 08, 2012, 07:20 PM
I'm translating this guide to stability to brazilian portuguese. If someone wants to post it, a help would be apreciated, since I don't know how to do it.

I wrote this guide over 5 years ago. Since then, the mod has changed a lot. I have not followed the recent changes, so I do not know how relevant the guide is now. I do not think it will be.

So, before taking a lot of time translating it - ask current players/posters how relevant it is (good or bad). Thanks for your interest. :)

skyclad
Sep 09, 2012, 07:26 AM
Most of it sounds like what I read elsewhere - but it might also have been outdated. Some things are false or contradictory at least, so be wary (representation causes a negative after 3 or 6 cities? and golden age does not eliminate anarchy anymore, but maybe it removes the penalty for having been in anarchy.)