Hi, I have a few questions about magic. The game seems to take forever to gain the experiences needed to fully test all the spells, so I’ll pose some questions to the FfH community to hopefully answer some of my questions about magic spells

How does the game mechanics work with the free magic promotions from having duplicate nodes?
I understand that having two death nodes means that your adepts will get skeletons. But the adepts can’t have level 2 spells so I guess having 3 of a node type doesn’t achieve anything when training adepts.

But how does it work when going into higher levels, mage, arc mage, conjurer, summoner etc.
Do they also get free promotions from extra nodes? How does it calculate it when upgrading?
Is it important to have 3 of a node type at the stage of training the initial adept, or at the stage of upgrading? Is there any advantage for having 4+ of one node type?

It takes forever for them to gain experience, and the extra experience needed for each level increases,
So the free magic promotions make a huge difference at higher levels.
So if you want a high level caster with combat5, extention2 etc then I guess you need to get all the nodes before you start building them.

How do people upgrade their initial nodes? Manna 3 of one type? Or 2 manna of two types?
Naturally you’ll get more nodes over time through conquest, which will happen before your arcane units get to summoner/arc mage etc.

Do people specialize in one magic type, getting divine, summoners, and arcmages on that type before they look at other magic types due do gaining extra nodes from conquest?

Are there any other ways of getting free promotions that drastically cut down the levels needed?
The high level spells sound interesting but it takes forever to get arc mages, summoners etc.

I know the sheaim units level faster, but it seems a bit limiting to limit all games to one race, there should be some wonder that also adds an extra exp generation rate to arcane units.

When is the best time to go for flesh grafting? What units do you combine? Two arc mages for lots of spells? Or an arc mage and a strong unit for more defense?

I guess that means you’d need three nodes of one type for offence spells, then three body nodes in the late game for grafting, and then three death nodes for the lich. And then three law nodes if you want those grafted unyielding order units to keep peace in all the cities (unyielding order could be nasty on calabim civ). That’s a lot of nodes you need to capture!
what about recycling nodes? First have three of one type of node and teach all the level 3 spells you need of that type, then change the nodes to three of another type. By saving promotions and recycling nodes, could you possibly get all level 3 spells from all planes?

Do you start with the battle elements [fire etc], and then build body/law/death nodes later in the game when you get closer to reaching level 3 spell casters?

which spheres are best to go for? Which spheres have the best spells?
Do you always go for the manna provided in the palace so you only need 2 more? Or ignore what the palace produces and go for the element you like most?

Do people normally simultaneously go down the summoner, sorcerer and divine research path? Is it better to max out one? It’s pointless to be able to have the posiblility to upgrade units to arc mages when you still need to wait a many many turns for a unit to become experienced enough to use it.

On a side note, I also feel a bit disappointed when I have waited a long time to get some nice fancy magic spells, and then go traveling only to find archers and axe men for resistance. The AI doesn’t seem to advance it’s defenses much throughout the game. So the only test for the high level casters is in taking down some high level barbarian hero. The AI should also cast spells back.

Thanks for answering all the questions.

How does the game mechanics work with the free magic promotions from having duplicate nodes?

1 mana = you can choose that sphere of magic as a promotion for your arcane spellcasters.
2 manas = you get a free promotion of level 1 in that sphere of magic for your newly trained adepts.
3 manas = you get a free promotion of level 2 in that sphere of magic for your newly trained adepts.

Note that to use the level 2 promotion, hence to cast level 2 spells, the spellcasters need to have the channelling 2 promotion, which is awarded only to the base units upgrades and to some special units, like UUs or heroes etc. So in short an Adept with Death II can only cast summon skeleton, but upon being promoted to Mage he will be able to cast contagion without further promotions.

Do they also get free promotions from extra nodes? How does it calculate it when upgrading?
Is it important to have 3 of a node type at the stage of training the initial adept, or at the stage of upgrading? Is there any advantage for having 4+ of one node type?

See answer number 1. It is important to have a certain amount of mana (up to 3) at the moment of unit creation, not at the upgrade.

It takes forever for them to gain experience, and the extra experience needed for each level increases,
So the free magic promotions make a huge difference at higher levels.
So if you want a high level caster with combat5, extention2 etc then I guess you need to get all the nodes before you start building them.

Arcane spellcasters gain experience with time, even without fighting. So an early adept can have enough xp to be effective even if you don't own many manas. Also note that if you build them early you can feed them with goblins. Two tips:
1- higher levels gain experience with time faster than lower levels. So be sure to upgrade ASAP.
2- give combat promotions to future summoners (with one or max 2 spheres of magic, they should be enough, unless you get more than these for free), disregard them for future mages and give them as many spheres of magic as possible, instead.

How do people upgrade their initial nodes? Manna 3 of one type? Or 2 manna of two types?
Naturally you’ll get more nodes over time through conquest, which will happen before your arcane units get to summoner/arc mage etc.

I never make 2 nodes the same. The advantages to have different manas are better than those of having more of the same, IMO. But I haven't played with affinity, although I doubt it would make me change my mind. Of course it can happen that I get more of one mana of the same type, for example starting as the dwarves (1 earth mana in the palace) and founding Runes of Kilmorph and building the holy wonder (another earth mana for free).

Do people specialize in one magic type, getting divine, summoners, and arcmages on that type before they look at other magic types due do gaining extra nodes from conquest?

Divine spellcasters don't take into account manas you posses. Their schools of magic depends on their religion and you can't add more or change them.
As for arcane spellcasters, I prefer diversity, one adept will be promoted for certain tasks, another one with others etc. At higher levels mages tend to be equal since they will get pretty much all spheres of magic I am allowed to give them. Summoners will be more specialized instead.

Are there any other ways of getting free promotions that drastically cut down the levels needed?
The high level spells sound interesting but it takes forever to get arc mages, summoners etc.

weaken enemies and finish them off with mages / summoners. It's faster, but it has its risks...

I know the sheaim units level faster, but it seems a bit limiting to limit all games to one race, there should be some wonder that also adds an extra exp generation rate to arcane units.

Nope, that is the Arcane trait (didn't you read its description ?). Any leader with that trait will have its arcane spellcasters gain experience with time faster.

When is the best time to go for flesh grafting? What units do you combine? Two arc mages for lots of spells? Or an arc mage and a strong unit for more defense?

I personally never do it because I find it unnecessarily overpowered. I'd just scrap this spell and invent a new one... so I'll let someone else answer this question.

what about recycling nodes? First have three of one type of node and teach all the level 3 spells you need of that type, then change the nodes to three of another type. By saving promotions and recycling nodes, could you possibly get all level 3 spells from all planes?

Eheh, you can't change nodes unless they are not in the previous owned territory anymore. So you should willingly loose a city and then take it back in order to change a node. Another possibility comes with the Ashen Veil religion. In that case you can build an infernal beast (beast of agares) which will provoke unrest in your city and hence cause your borders to shrink and "reset" the node.

Do you start with the battle elements [fire etc], and then build body/law/death nodes later in the game when you get closer to reaching level 3 spell casters?

Depends on the civ. Civs have predetermined starting mana. So if you don't have fire, and you don't have nodes or techs to build them... you can't start with fire :) I generally make a water node as soon as I can though, to turn off Acheron's fires and to terraform deserts.

which spheres are best to go for? Which spheres have the best spells?

This has so many variables to consider... depends on map, civ, strategy, pretty much everything. Use the search function there have been discussions about this in the past.

Do you always go for the manna provided in the palace so you only need 2 more? Or ignore what the palace produces and go for the element you like most?

Like I said I prefer diversity and never build a node of a mana type I already have. And not always you can build nodes, so you might be forced to stick with your civ's mana.

Do people normally simultaneously go down the summoner, sorcerer and divine research path? Is it better to max out one? It’s pointless to be able to have the posiblility to upgrade units to arc mages when you still need to wait a many many turns for a unit to become experienced enough to use it.

Yeah, simultaneously is better.

Do people specialize in one magic type, getting divine, summoners, and arcmages on that type before they look at other magic types due do gaining extra nodes from conquest?

I've never intentionally duplicated nodes, always leaving my options open for the towers, although there have been some changes in 0.22 that might entice me to change that strategy, particularly if I'm playing a summoning heavy Civ.


Are there any other ways of getting free promotions that drastically cut down the levels needed?
The high level spells sound interesting but it takes forever to get arc mages, summoners etc.

The Amurites hero, Govannon, can train units to cast Haste, Raise Skeleton, Dance of Blades, and Escape, which can give an Adept a boost in achieving high level spells in any of these schools.

The Amurite building, the Cave of Ancestors, gives extra starting xp to Adepts based on the number of nodes you have.

The Command Post (buildable by Organized leaders or sacrificing a Great General) also increases the xp of all units built in a city.

Several civics (Theocracy, Conquest, Apprenticeship) increase the xp of all units built in a city, although Theocracy requires that the city have the state religion.

Savants (Ashen Veil disciple unit) can be upgraded into Mages, and disciple units can begin with gobs of xp if you have a few levels of the Altar of Luonnotar. Also, if you have a Spiritual leader, Savants begin with Mobility as well. However, until the Savant upgrades to a Mage, they are somewhat limited in useful promotions. (The combat sphere is much more useful to Conjurers. I'm not sure why Savants don't upgrade into Conjurers anyway, given the Ashen Veil's favor of summoning.)

The Grigori adventures gain 1 xp every turn and make excellent archmages. However, you may also consider giving them (and other arcane heroes) the combat promotions so that they can get access to Twincast.

When is the best time to go for flesh grafting? What units do you combine? Two arc mages for lots of spells? Or an arc mage and a strong unit for more defense?

I've only fleshgrafted casters when playing the Amurites, as it is relatively easy to replace casters, so I can replace any "city" archmages (Law III, Spirit II, Mind II) I graft with more Archmages.

which spheres are best to go for? Which spheres have the best spells?

Water is nice for terraforming deserts and putting out fires in addition to having some decent spells. (Try using Spring on an Oasis tile. Tsunami can be used to terraform or destroy enemy cities. A mage on a freshwater lake is relatively safe, even in enemy territory. Djinni begin with a sphere of magic or two, and if you're patient, you can gain access to Loyalty, Courage, and Enchanted Blade this way. The same is true of the Imp.)

Fire is obviously useful and is still the most powerful sphere. It needs to be nerfed a bit or the other spheres should be improved to bring them in line.

Mind, Law, and Spirit are good for peaceful civs. Life is essential for keeping Hell at bay and sanctifying city ruins to keep the Armaggedon Counter low.

Thanks for the responce

1 mana = you can choose that sphere of magic as a promotion for your arcane spellcasters.
2 manas = you get a free promotion of level 1 in that sphere of magic for your newly trained adepts.
3 manas = you get a free promotion of level 2 in that sphere of magic for your newly trained adepts.

Note that to use the level 2 promotion, hence to cast level 2 spells, the spellcasters need to have the channelling 2 promotion, which is awarded only to the base units upgrades and to some special units, like UUs or heroes etc. So in short an Adept with Death II can only cast summon skeleton, but upon being promoted to Mage he will be able to cast contagion without further promotions.
.


Thanks for clarifying this.


I never make 2 nodes the same. The advantages to have different manas are better than those of having more of the same, IMO. But I haven't played with affinity, although I doubt it would make me change my mind. Of course it can happen that I get more of one mana of the same type, for example starting as the dwarves (1 earth mana in the palace) and founding Runes of Kilmorph and building the holy wonder (another earth mana for free).

I never make 2 nodes the same. The advantages to have different manas are better than those of having more of the same, IMO. But I haven't played with affinity, although I doubt it would make me change my mind. Of course it can happen that I get more of one mana of the same type, for example starting as the dwarves (1 earth mana in the palace) and founding Runes of Kilmorph and building the holy wonder (another earth mana for free).



I just finished reading a really interesting article in the FfH Wiki about spell casrer specialization.

It addresses the use of different units for different purposes. The first ones being dabblers, then later when you have multiple manna of one type you produce the units that will ultimatly become your arc-mages etc.

Ideally for a super powered unit you can only cast one spell per turn, so a million weak spells isn’t as good as one stron one. Maybe build for one or two powerful level 3 spells.

Now for these super spell casters you want
A powerful lvl 3 spell
Combat5
Spell extention 2

That is a total of 10 promotions. (LOTS of exp!!!)

Now if these units are created after having 3 of one manna type then they will get the first two levels for that spell free, meaning only 8 promotions. (65exp or something?)

The extra promotions don’t make so much difference at low levels, but are worth (level10 exp-level 8 exp) experience points later. Two free levels make a HUGE difference in experience when talking about level 10+.

The problem with only making “dabblers” for the first half of the game till you have 3 of a node type is that the “super-mages” will be created till much later after conquering for another 2 nodes, so won’t experience as much, and won’t level as soon.

I find you normally get about 2 nodes at the start of the game (depending n map etc) That means 5 manna.
So I was thinking that making 3 of a single type at the very start means that those very first adepts you are traning will eventually become your super mage, with metiors, C5, SE2 etc. this means you get your super mages much earlier. Then later getting one of each realm for your “dabblers”. But however limits you to only 3 realms at the start. Sure the difference between C5 and C3 is only 10% more strength in spell/summon, but it is something to be considered as an advantage in specializing. I guess all you really need is one powerful spell.

I guess getting one of all 15 realms could also be interesting, making a specialist sorcerer and summoner of each realm, (along with a few bluffs low level units etc).


thanks for the tips on getting exp points etc.

I'm going to have to try some of these realms, although i it is a pity that you need to wait such a long time before you can test out the real high level magic. so takes a very long time to get around to testing all the realms.

However, until the Savant upgrades to a Mage, they are somewhat limited in useful promotions. (The combat sphere is much more useful to Conjurers. I'm not sure why Savants don't upgrade into Conjurers anyway, given the Ashen Veil's favor of summoning.)


I'll have to disagree here, in my opinion all battlemages need combat, since it will boost all the attack spells, such as fireball, contagion, maelstorm, crush, and more. Therefore, combat promotions are nearly as useful to mages as they are to conjurers.
Still, I agree that Savants should be able to upgrade into conjurers.

what about calabin? if you temporarily switch religion to the order, and make confessors, then feed up some vampires to high XP levels, then sacrifice these high-level vampires in the city with soul forge and deamon altar, and only your arcane unit there, to pass 25% of the exp from your fed vampires on to your arc-mages.

does that work? it'd require a bit of religion swapping, but could be an interesting way to level those mages fast.

It'd be easier just to gift vampirism to the mages, and let them eat the population themselves ;) .

EDIT: Though they'd have to be level 6 first for that to work.

silly me, the spirit guide will end on your mage, instead of the next sacraficcial vampire, so you'll only be able to do it once for each confessor sactaficed on to a vampire, which is fed up big time, which is sacraficed on to the mage. the need for new confessors each time you do the process would mean that you'l need to stay in the order (after being overlords for building tower of complacency, then switch to ashen vale for deamons altar, then finally end in the order for unlimited confessors for leveling mages). now i wish the calabin had a spiritual trait leader. :P

what about calabin? if you temporarily switch religion to the order, and make confessors, then feed up some vampires to high XP levels, then sacrifice these high-level vampires in the city with soul forge and deamon altar, and only your arcane unit there, to pass 25% of the exp from your fed vampires on to your arc-mages.

does that work? it'd require a bit of religion swapping, but could be an interesting way to level those mages fast.

The Spirit Guide spell only gives the promotion to the caster. It would work with Reliquaries, but then you'd have to be Elohim, so no vampires, unless you play multiplayer and swap units.

It'd be easier just to gift vampirism to the mages, and let them eat the population themselves ;) .

EDIT: Though they'd have to be level 6 first for that to work.

oh yeah, silly me.
that makes it much easier (once they get to level 6)

I guess now the calabin will have better late-game mages then the sheaim. :)

The Spirit Guide spell only gives the promotion to the caster. It would work with Reliquaries, but then you'd have to be Elohim, so no vampires, unless you play multiplayer and swap units.

that's strange, i read at one part of the wiki that spirit guide gives +50% XP, and at another part that it gives 25% exp, and passes on the spirit guide trait.

seems like the wiki info is conflicting. did it change in different versions? has anyone tested it in the latest version?

I believe spirit guide has also been changed to give xp to a random unit, not always one at the same tile as the priest.

Vulcans, also keep in mind that mages, conjurors, archmages, and summoners all get a free promotion on leveling, so the xp is somewhat lower than you are imagining.

I agree with the OP that there should be a wonder which increases XP for the mage line. The nice thing is that this wonder already exists--the towers. I think that each tower should increase either a)the rate of experience gained, or b)the starting XP of adepts, or c) randomly gift an entire sphere based on the tower; say, the fire sphere, if you build adept in the city with the Tower of Elements. I've been trying to figure out a way to increase the benefits of towers, and this might be a good idea. My other idea (in a thread, somewhere), was for each tower to allow a "master of the tower". The "master" would be a buildable hero or free hero upon completion of the tower and would have immeadiate access to all spells from his/her tower, but no other spells. Thoughts from the community?

I'll try to avoid answering questions already answered above, except where the answer above is expressed an opinion or playstyle, then I'll offer my alternative :-)


Is it important to have 3 of a node type at the stage of training the initial adept, or at the stage of upgrading?


In my opinion:
Yes, very much so. The "early game" mages, despite extra xp are eventually and quite thoroughly eclipsed by "late game" mages who are made after you have sufficient nodes to grant them free spells.


Is there any advantage for having 4+ of one node type?


As far as I am aware, there are two bonuses
1) the "affinity" bonus - such as the reduced city maintenance for Law Nodes.
2) the creature bonus - such as skeletons getting +1 :strength: per Death

In my opinion:
This is not worth it compared to the advantages of opening up access to another school OR getting a free spell you weren't getting.


It takes forever for them to gain experience, and the extra experience needed for each level increases,
So the free magic promotions make a huge difference at higher levels.
So if you want a high level caster with combat5, extention2 etc then I guess you need to get all the nodes before you start building them.


In my opinion:
There are two kinds of mages

1) Specialist Mages - who you SHOULD wait to build until you have mastered all the nodes you can get your hands on.
2) Dabblers - these you build straight away and use to be "useful along the way".

It's not really much fun to wait until very nearly endgame before you build mages, when you can have so much fun along the way. You are correct through, in thinking that the endgame mages are more efficient in terms of more promotions for less levels.


How do people upgrade their initial nodes? Manna 3 of one type? Or 2 manna of two types?


In my opinion:
I tend to specialise first. I get to 3 of the ones I want as free upgrades before taking "nice to have" upgrades into side schools. I try to do it without nodes where possible - snagging the World Wonders, Religious Cities, etc. Anything that provides a free mana is a priority for a mage-heavy tactic or civ.

Then you can pick up the other stuff later, with the nodes you capture in war or expansion. But by then you'll have started to make the mages you wanted to get free upgrades with :-)



Do people specialize in one magic type, getting divine, summoners, and arcmages on that type before they look at other magic types due do gaining extra nodes from conquest?


As discussed, Divine casters do not require nodes so are not part of this tactic.

In my opinion:
Summoners can only summon 1 critter per turn. They make ideal specialists. As such, they really only need access to 1 mana type. So I don't think about them at all when selecting mana node types so long as I have at least 1 strong summon line already - such as Law or Chaos, Fire, Earth or Death.


Are there any other ways of getting free promotions that drastically cut down the levels needed?


Only the ones already mentioned - get the Wonders with free mana nodes, and also look for the wonder that grants a free promotion to all units built in it's city (I'm sorry, I forget it's name).



When is the best time to go for flesh grafting? What units do you combine? Two arc mages for lots of spells? Or an arc mage and a strong unit for more defense?


I tend to only do this quite late game and only when forced to by needing a Law III spell in a city. Then I'm doing it just to free up an archmage slot for an endgame mage, not for the buffs and spells.

I don't use them for offence as it feels cheesy. Note to devs: I wouldn't mind seeing this nerfed or removed either, I don't think it's very balanced.


I guess that means you’d need three nodes of one type for offence spells, then three body nodes in the late game for grafting, and then three death nodes for the lich. And then three law nodes if you want those grafted unyielding order units to keep peace in all the cities (unyielding order could be nasty on calabim civ). That’s a lot of nodes you need to capture!


Remember you only need *1* node of these types to select the spells. You can simply have more mages. One mage COULD only learn Law and thus easily get Law III and Death III when they hit archmage. It's only if you want your mages to get all these level II spells FOR FREE AT UNIT CREATION that you need to have 3 nodes of the type.

In my opinion:
I find 3 nodes of 2-3 types is the most I could hope for in any game, including snaring some wonders along the way. So I generally go for Law, Death and something offensive (Air, Earth, Fire, lots of choices, really). Then you only need 1 of each type.

Especially if you build MORE spellcasters and spread the spells around.


what about recycling nodes? First have three of one type of node and teach all the level 3 spells you need of that type, then change the nodes to three of another type. By saving promotions and recycling nodes, could you possibly get all level 3 spells from all planes?


Yes, you could, but you'd have to cheesily lose and recapture a node to do so and you've so far been talking about the FREE promotions, not the BOUGHT promotions.


Do you start with the battle elements [fire etc], and then build body/law/death nodes later in the game when you get closer to reaching level 3 spell casters?


I generally start with whatever I want at level III - Fire, Death, Law. Then move on to things I find more useful.


which spheres are best to go for? Which spheres have the best spells?


That's too broad a question. Ideally all spheres are "useful" for something.

For civ-management/Builder style play:
Water I, Life I, Spirit II-III, Law III, Nature III, Mind II, Death III.

For offence/war of aggression:
Fire II-III, Earth III, Air III, Law II, Chaos I-II, Death II, Enchantment I-II

For defence/turtling:
Body I-III, Chaos I, Earth I, Air II, Enchantment I-II

For summoner races:
Chaos II-III, Law III, Fire II-III, Death III.

There's a lot of overlap there obviously :-)



Do you always go for the manna provided in the palace so you only need 2 more? Or ignore what the palace produces and go for the element you like most?


In my opinion:
The palace mana doesn't ALWAYS match the race playstyle, or the playstyle you want to use with the race. Sometimes it's good fun to play cross-style with a defensive race constanlty on the attack. Go for what you want to DO with the game, not just what the palace tells you.


Do people normally simultaneously go down the summoner, sorcerer and divine research path? Is it better to max out one? It’s pointless to be able to have the posiblility to upgrade units to arc mages when you still need to wait a many many turns for a unit to become experienced enough to use it.


In my opinion:
Spread some research out, but if your whole strategy relies on magic, then at least get as far as Sorcery/Summoning quite early in the game.




There.

THere is also a guide on the wiki (cheer) for playing mages, that you might find useful and helpful.

It's to be found here (http://civ4wiki.com/wiki/index.php/FfH_Sarkyn%27s_Mage_Strategy_%28Strategy%29).

Hope that helps!



Edit: Oh, I see you've read my guide since the original post. Glad you liked it! ;-)

I like the idea of a master of tower.

my fav tower is tower of necromancy. with 2 death mana then every adept you build has raise skeleton, increasing the max skeleton limit drastically. that's how i killed the dragon one time, even if the 4 st skeletons are much weaker then the opponent, they are expendable, so you can soften up a tough target with 40 skeletons (buffed up) before you send in your 1 turn summons, and finally a decent unit to finish the job. (one puny chariot got a LOT of experiance for killing the dragon)

I also was a bit dissappointed with the Towers of Magery.

In my first game, I thought "Ooh, I bet they're really good since they're so hard to build!" but it turns out they're a bit "meh".

Suggestions for buffage -
- arcane unit xp (since arcane units currently have no equivalent to Bowyer/Yard/etc)
- mana of appropriate types (towers should be about specialisation)
- "long range" promotion that allows casters in cities with towers to lob spells a lot further. I think it'd be awesome defensively to be able to perch an archmage at the top of a tower and gain (double?) range on his meteors, Tsunami, etc.
- Sentry II-III (?) promotion to the city
- free spells cast BY the tower, like the Tower of Light

personally i think that either the tower would grant acess to special spells, or it allows you to build a world unit super mage that has acess to sorcery summoning levels 1 through 3 of all spheres in that group, affinity for all ttypes of mana in that group, spell extrnsion 1 thorugh 2 combat 1 through 5 and twincast

I'm not generally a heavy mage player, except with Sheaim or Amurites (though you can do a lot with just planar gate creatures as the Sheaim), so when not focusing on magic or towers I find the following (in no particular order) to be most beneficial:

One water node (unless OO/Lanun) for spring, especially now that it puts out fires.
Enough to build the Tower of Divinaton - that free tech whenever you want it (national wonder) is awesome. I often grab late techs like Mithril Weapons (for Caminus Aureus) or Omniscience with it. Spirit also allows you to snag the Shrine of Sirona, which is pretty handy to keep your blitzing heroes (as soon as you get orthus' axe on a hero, if not before, grab mobility - mounted heroes with 4 or 5 attacks/round, a quick heal from the shrine and healers in the tile and march are unstoppable) and flurries going longer.
If neutral, a nature node for druids (the Ljosalfar and leaves founders obv don't need to worry about this one)
A life node. If you get in the palace you can get the two Sucellus wonders, as long as you're willing to rush the first one to get there before the AI.
Enchantment is handy, especially the first one, for the happiness.

The Amurites' Cave of the Ancestors gives some extra benefit to having lots of nodes, whatever type they are. As the Grigori, adventurers make amazing archmages with all that free experience - you'll want a lot of different nodes since access is more important than free promos for them, although you can't rely on getting any of the religious wonders which provide death and entropy apart from the odd shrines (often captured from neighbours :)). The one which increases GPP rate (spirit?) is good for GPP strategies, the Grigori and anyone going for the Altar.

FWIW, the extra Str from certain mana types given to units is called affinity.

How do people upgrade their initial nodes? Manna 3 of one type? Or 2 manna of two types?

When I play Amurites I try to build two nodes as fire, and one as death. Prioritizing Fire, cause the Amurites start with one fire, and with 3 Fire nodes, my Wizards can start with Combat V and Fire II, which means that my Fireballs get Empower V. Which helps A LOT. And I will usually have atleast 2 nodes near my start, so the Fire is usually not a problem. And with the Amurites you get +1 XP per mana node (from cave of ancestors) no matter what mana type it is, and in a city with a Command Post + 6 Mana total (3 from palace, 1 religion and 2 nodes) and +2 from Apprenticeship. 10 Experience == Wizard.


When is the best time to go for flesh grafting? What units do you combine? Two arc mages for lots of spells? Or an arc mage and a strong unit for more defense?Only time I've used flesh grafting was to make several units that could cast Unyielding Order in my Calabim cities.

And you DON'T need 3 Law mana to make a unyielding order Archmage, cause the Archmage will need 6 levels, and 2 upgrades to get there. Which means 7 promotions.


Do you start with the battle elements [fire etc], and then build body/law/death nodes later in the game when you get closer to reaching level 3 spell casters?Only time I Don't specialize is when I'm going for Tower of Mastery victory, or I already got the mana I need for my current goal. Then I pick mana nodes that will best serve my cause.


which spheres are best to go for? Which spheres have the best spells?
Do you always go for the manna provided in the palace so you only need 2 more? Or ignore what the palace produces and go for the element you like most?Depends on the game you play. Fire is good if you need offensive ranged spells. Death is nice if you want a large army of skeletons/spectres. And eventually some liches. +Contagion is a nice spell, even with the dmg limit. Water for spring. Body is nice for Haste, Chaos is nice for Dance of Blades. Nature is nice for Treetop Defense. There are many nice spells.

And some of the nodes also provide other bonuses which can be nice.
Enchantment for +1 :)
Spirit for +5% :gp:
Law for -5% Maintainence
Life for +1 :health:
Body for +3% Healrate
Entropy for -3% Healrate to enemy in your lands

Do people normally simultaneously go down the summoner, sorcerer and divine research path? Is it better to max out one? It’s pointless to be able to have the posiblility to upgrade units to arc mages when you still need to wait a many many turns for a unit to become experienced enough to use it.The times I've played with Arcane units I've gone for Sorcerer's with Amurites, Summoners/Ritualits with Sheaim, and Priests with Ljosalfar.

Fire is obviously useful and is still the most powerful sphere. It needs to be nerfed a bit or the other spheres should be improved to bring them in line.
Unless your going for mage/wizard spam, I disagree with this, and even then it's questionable. For lvl 3 spells, I find Crush (Earth III) to be much more useful. It's physical damage so it can't be resisted, and it affects every unit in a tile. Meteors can only cause collateral damage to 4 units (for reference, catapults are around 6), so that's (at most) 12 units per spell, usually less. So other than the occasional lucky meteor that kills a unit, Crush does significantly more damage.

For summoning, Earth Elementals and Fire Elementals are similar in usefulness. Earth Elementals have 10 + 1/earth node strength that cannot be resisted. Fire Elementals have 5 + 3 fire + 1 (fire?)/fire node and +25% city attack, with 2 moves instead of 1.

Also, Earth mana increases the likelihood of discovering resources in your mines, whereas Fire has no other benefits. The only time that Fire is significantly better IMO is with lvl 2 spells. Sandlions and fireballs are some of the best spells at their level, with possible contenders of Chaos (chaos marauders) and Death (contagion, specters). If you're building a massive army of mages, then Fire and Death (for extra Archmage slots) are the best, but if you're just using a few highly promoted Archmages, Earth will help take down cities faster.

I personally like airIII for my archmage attack. It may have less damage than crush, but affect everything within two spaces. So, hidden shadows, another city, reinforcing units, units guarding resources etc. Air is weaker than fire at level 2, however.

As far as building more than one mana node, I only do when there is a spell (such as fireball, skeleton, etc) that I would like all mages to have. Since only 6-9 units will have the third level spells(unless you graft flesh), I never make enough nodes to give the third level free. It doesn't make sense to make extra nodes just for the few that promote to the last level; let them spend a promotion on it. Unless, of course, you focus on just one type of summon. You can make even level 2 summons very powerful with 5 or 6 nodes.

Unless your going for mage/wizard spam, I disagree with this, and even then it's questionable. For lvl 3 spells, I find Crush (Earth III) to be much more useful. It's physical damage so it can't be resisted, and it affects every unit in a tile. Meteors can only cause collateral damage to 4 units (for reference, catapults are around 6), so that's (at most) 12 units per spell, usually less. So other than the occasional lucky meteor that kills a unit, Crush does significantly more damage.

For summoning, Earth Elementals and Fire Elementals are similar in usefulness. Earth Elementals have 10 + 1/earth node strength that cannot be resisted. Fire Elementals have 5 + 3 fire + 1 (fire?)/fire node and +25% city attack, with 2 moves instead of 1.

Also, Earth mana increases the likelihood of discovering resources in your mines, whereas Fire has no other benefits. The only time that Fire is significantly better IMO is with lvl 2 spells. Sandlions and fireballs are some of the best spells at their level, with possible contenders of Chaos (chaos marauders) and Death (contagion, specters). If you're building a massive army of mages, then Fire and Death (for extra Archmage slots) are the best, but if you're just using a few highly promoted Archmages, Earth will help take down cities faster.
The thing with fire is that there's a significant time lag between mages and archmages (infernal grimoire or tower of divination speed it up a lot, but the xp-gathering still takes time). Even then, you're very limited in archmage numbers.
Meanwhile, for all that time, fire casters rule the world - and fireballs in particular become significantly more useful with every empowerment they get. Someone exploiting level 2 fire to its fullest (especially with a bit of contagion in the mix) can really throw their weight around during that window, in a way that's hard to match with any other unit in its timeframe, and net themselves a very big advantage out of it. Might even get yourself a node or two that can be turned into earth.
Even when archmages come, rank-and-file fire wizards are still very useful as general-purpose softeners.
Don't get me wrong, I think earth is a great mana type, and I think you're probably right about Crush vs Meteors. Fire fades in the late game (though it still scales well with raw numbers), but level 2 fire is just something else, and the advantage far outweighs the investment, in my book.

Other than that:
Death is great, and contagion works very well in concert with fire magic. Plus there's good summons and eventual lichdom.
Body is fantastic - haste, regeneration and stoneskin are all extremely useful, particularly for offensive stacks. Haste in particular is probably the pick of the adept spells. If I could only have one magic-user with one sphere, it would be body.
Enchantment is very solid (though it's kinda wasted if you've got kilmorph). The troop boosts are nice, the spellstaff is great, and you get extra happiness to boot.
Nature is nice all down the line, though it's really only a primary choice for leaves civs.
Water is well worth an early node if you find yourself with a bunch of desert, but water walking is only really useful with a bunch of drown, and there are better level 3 spells.

I would only double up on fire, death or body.

that's strange, i read at one part of the wiki that spirit guide gives +50% XP, and at another part that it gives 25% exp, and passes on the spirit guide trait.

seems like the wiki info is conflicting. did it change in different versions? has anyone tested it in the latest version?

It's half the (Now-dead) unit's XP to a random unit. I updated the wiki references I could find.

The thing with fire is that there's a significant time lag between mages and archmages (infernal grimoire or tower of divination speed it up a lot, but the xp-gathering still takes time). Even then, you're very limited in archmage numbers.
Meanwhile, for all that time, fire casters rule the world - and fireballs in particular become significantly more useful with every empowerment they get. Someone exploiting level 2 fire to its fullest (especially with a bit of contagion in the mix) can really throw their weight around during that window, in a way that's hard to match with any other unit in its timeframe, and net themselves a very big advantage out of it. Might even get yourself a node or two that can be turned into earth.
I agree, but my point was that it has its time to shine and then pails, thus no need for nerfing it. Great Sage are great for Arcane Lore (instead of wasting a free tech wonder).

That said, I almost always save a node in my territory for fire, but after I get 1 (or 2 if my palace provides fire mana), other nodes are more valuable. Which node I build first depends on which tech I research first, provided I have more than 1 node available, and I usually get Sorcery before Elementalism.

I just finished reading a really interesting article in the FfH Wiki about spell casrer specialization.

It addresses the use of different units for different purposes. The first ones being dabblers, then later when you have multiple manna of one type you produce the units that will ultimatly become your arc-mages etc.

Ideally for a super powered unit you can only cast one spell per turn, so a million weak spells isn’t as good as one stron one. Maybe build for one or two powerful level 3 spells.

Now for these super spell casters you want
A powerful lvl 3 spell
Combat5
Spell extention 2

That is a total of 10 promotions. (LOTS of exp!!!)

Combat 5 is totally useless, to quote you, a super powered arch mage is a million times stronger with 5 more schools of magic than one school and combat 5. You can only have 3 archmages, and specilizing them in one school of magic only it's bad, since spells are quite situational. You aren't even sure that spell extention will be useful with that level 3 spell. That build is good for a summoner not for an archmage.


Now if these units are created after having 3 of one manna type then they will get the first two levels for that spell free, meaning only 8 promotions. (65exp or something?)

You're basing this strategy on pure theory, the reality is quite different. There are many things you didn't consider:
1- Having 3 or more manas of more than one type is an epic quest that will take up a lot of time, and by the time you succeed it will be really late and redundant to build adepts...
2- The early adepts that you built with Knowledge of the Ether will have much more experience than these new late units will ever get, also because the first adepts will have a chance to fight lower level units and win some battles for a good amount of xp, the late ones won't.

The extra promotions don’t make so much difference at low levels, but are worth (level10 exp-level 8 exp) experience points later. Two free levels make a HUGE difference in experience when talking about level 10+.

I just hold the promotions until the unit is archmage, heh...........

So I was thinking that making 3 of a single type at the very start means that those very first adepts you are traning will eventually become your super mage, with metiors, C5, SE2 etc. this means you get your super mages much earlier. Then later getting one of each realm for your “dabblers”. But however limits you to only 3 realms at the start. Sure the difference between C5 and C3 is only 10% more strength in spell/summon, but it is something to be considered as an advantage in specializing. I guess all you really need is one powerful spell.

This seems to contradict what you wrote above, anyways combat promotions are irrilevant in the vast majority of mages spells, so I really don't understand why you keep looking at them.


I'm going to have to try some of these realms, although i it is a pity that you need to wait such a long time before you can test out the real high level magic. so takes a very long time to get around to testing all the realms.

It also takes a long time to get around with the different strategies to adopt with different civs. Civs in FFH don't just have a UU and a UB... it's much more and it's what makes this mod so replayable.

I'll have to disagree here, in my opinion all battlemages need combat, since it will boost all the attack spells, such as fireball, contagion, maelstorm, crush, and more. Therefore, combat promotions are nearly as useful to mages as they are to conjurers.
Still, I agree that Savants should be able to upgrade into conjurers.

Uh ? Ok someone here must be missing something. Combat promotions don't boost the damage of attack spells at all. The only mage spell affected (as far as I remember) is Fireball, and consequently Meteor Shower, because they are not direct damage spells but they are in all effects summon spells (they summon the fireball(s) unit(s) that can attack a target). Once, the fire sphere was a must for attacking, but lately other spheres got very powerful level 3 spells, which are now much more effective than fire ones, like Crush, Tsunami (that needs a little boost to work on fresh water tiles also, IMO) and Maelstrom. Without counting the mighty Domination. So I reiterate, that combat promotions are a huge waste of xp for mages, unless you're specifically building a "fire mage", like I call them, which I do, but lately I never promote these guys to archmages, since it's much better to just make 3 mages which will cast 3 empower 5 fireballs, than wasting a powerful archmage able to cast domination and maelstrom, unyielding order and whatnot.

Uh ? Ok someone here must be missing something. Combat promotions don't boost the damage of attack spells at all.

Maybe You are missing something. Here is code from the doDamage() function from the SDK, which is used with most targeted spells, except fireball and meteor etc.


if (pAttacker->isHasPromotion((PromotionTypes)GC.getInfoTypeForSt ring("PROMOTION_COMBAT1")))
{iDmg += 5;
}
if (pAttacker->isHasPromotion((PromotionTypes)GC.getInfoTypeForSt ring("PROMOTION_COMBAT2")))
{iDmg += 5;
}
if (pAttacker->isHasPromotion((PromotionTypes)GC.getInfoTypeForSt ring("PROMOTION_COMBAT3")))
{iDmg += 5;
}
if (pAttacker->isHasPromotion((PromotionTypes)GC.getInfoTypeForSt ring("PROMOTION_COMBAT4")))
{iDmg += 5;
}
if (pAttacker->isHasPromotion((PromotionTypes)GC.getInfoTypeForSt ring("PROMOTION_COMBAT5")))
{iDmg += 5;
}
if (pAttacker->isHasPromotion((PromotionTypes)GC.getInfoTypeForSt ring("PROMOTION_CHANNELING3")))
{iDmg += 10;
}

I think my opinion agrees with the others, getting 3 of one mana type at the start is important for the battle mage/summoner that will ultimatly want C5, SE2 etc. for the others that don’t need C5, SE2 having multiple of one node type is not worth it.

If there are lots of nodes available I wonder if it would even work out to get 3 fire and 3 earth, to have the powerful level 2 spells in the mid-game, and then crush etc in the end game.

so this is how I figure one strategy could be, getting the 3 combat nodes first, then the extras.

Fire/earth: 3 (save levels for C5, SE2 offence units)
Law: 1 (Valour +exp, unyielding order no unhappy)
Enchantment 1 (dancing blades first strike)
Water 1(spring dessert to plains)
Body 1 (haste, free movement)
Death 1 (or 2 nodes for free skeletons for each arcane, lich ability later)

Optional extras if nodes available later
Spirit: (courage +10% health regen)
Nature: (vitalize)
Mind (inspiration, charmed?)


Then create units accordingly:

Mage battle (LVL 8 or 9)
Fire/Earth 3
C5, SE2
Death 1 (in the non-combat turns you can summon a collection of improved C5 SE2 skeletons)

Summoner (LVL 8 or 9)
Fire/Earth 3
C5, SE2
Death 1 (in the non-battle turns you can summon a collection of improved C5 SE2 skeletons)

Enchanter version 1 (LVL 5)
Law 2, Valour (attacking turn or turn before big attack for extra exp)
Body 2, Regenrate (turn after big attack)
Body 1: Haste (whenever possible)
Chaos 2 Dispel magic (on attacking turn if needed)

Enchanter version2 (LVL 5-7) (if nodes allow)
Chaos 1: Dance of blades (on attacking turn)
Earth 2, Rust (occasional attack)
Enchantement 1: enchanted blade (once per unit)
Spirit 1, courage (once per unit)

Peace makers (LVL 6, or 9 if linch)
Law 3, unyielding order
Earth 1: Wall of stone
Mind 2, inspiration (if mind node is available and levels permit)
Deadth 3 / Graft

I agree, but my point was that it has its time to shine and then pails, thus no need for nerfing it. Great Sage are great for Arcane Lore (instead of wasting a free tech wonder).

That said, I almost always save a node in my territory for fire, but after I get 1 (or 2 if my palace provides fire mana), other nodes are more valuable. Which node I build first depends on which tech I research first, provided I have more than 1 node available, and I usually get Sorcery before Elementalism.
I meant using the wonder for Strength of Will (which is otherwise about 5-6 great sages, plus you can't have already researched maths).
Once you have alteration, elementalism is the next tech on the lightbulb list, so I've never had a problem getting it in a timely fashion (alteration/elementalism/sorcery is a very nice use of three great sages). It also nicely deals with the "elementalism or necromancy?" dilemma.
Aaaaaaanyway, I guess my point is that fire shines so incredibly brightly in that time that there's nothing in the game that so utterly dominates its timeframe like fire mages - and that exploiting that to its fullest gives benefits far outweighing any opportunities lost later in the game. It's the point where the balance tips most decisively in favour of offense, and you've got your best chance of blitzing your way through huge swathes of the world with relative ease and speed, and minimal losses. So making the best use of that window seems to me to be by far the best use of magic. For me, that means fire first, then one body node and any others fire. When the dust settles, you should have more than enough new nodes in your grossly expanded lands to make into earth or whatever else :D

And even in the late game, a free fireball is a great backup spell for any caster (so is a sandlion). Good for preemptive city defense and offensive softening. It also nicely weakens units so your other wizardly units can get a decent fight in and boost their xp massively (especially in concert with stoneskin).
I'm not suggesting it should be nerfed (though it would be nice if there were other level 2 spells with similar offensive potential so it wasn't such a given), just that it's always damn nice to have extra fire nodes (much more so than for any other mana type).
Amurites in particular benefit from making two fire nodes, especially since they start with body anyway (masses of fireball wizards with spellstaves straight out of the caves, plus firebows that start with fireballs).

Maybe You are missing something. Here is code from the doDamage() function from the SDK, which is used with most targeted spells, except fireball and meteor etc.


Interesting, do you know if it's in 0.21 too ?

I meant using the wonder for Strength of Will (which is otherwise about 5-6 great sages, plus you can't have already researched maths).
Once you have alteration, elementalism is the next tech on the lightbulb list, so I've never had a problem getting it in a timely fashion (alteration/elementalism/sorcery is a very nice use of three great sages). It also nicely deals with the "elementalism or necromancy?" dilemma.
Aaaaaaanyway, I guess my point is that fire shines so incredibly brightly in that time that there's nothing in the game that so utterly dominates its timeframe like fire mages - and that exploiting that to its fullest gives benefits far outweighing any opportunities lost later in the game. It's the point where the balance tips most decisively in favour of offense, and you've got your best chance of blitzing your way through huge swathes of the world with relative ease and speed, and minimal losses. So making the best use of that window seems to me to be by far the best use of magic. For me, that means fire first, then one body node and any others fire. When the dust settles, you should have more than enough new nodes in your grossly expanded lands to make into earth or whatever else :D

And even in the late game, a free fireball is a great backup spell for any caster (so is a sandlion). Good for preemptive city defense and offensive softening. It also nicely weakens units so your other wizardly units can get a decent fight in and boost their xp massively (especially in concert with stoneskin).
I'm not suggesting it should be nerfed (though it would be nice if there were other level 2 spells with similar offensive potential so it wasn't such a given), just that it's always damn nice to have extra fire nodes (much more so than for any other mana type).
Amurites in particular benefit from making two fire nodes, especially since they start with body anyway (masses of fireball wizards with spellstaves straight out of the caves, plus firebows that start with fireballs).
Death II works well enough in substitute except no one starts with that mana and for best use, you need some way around the disease. If you're facing the OO or AV, Life II Destroy Undead could be a good choice if you don't have to waste a node (although Lifesparks are nice for augmenting your units).

The problem is that only those 3 mana offer direct damage at sorcery level 2. The other spheres work mostly on enhancing your army and don't need combat or spell extension promotions to be useful, so getting additional mana is unnecessary. I think that fireballs and contagion should really be compared to level 2 summons instead, and in that case there are good alternatives depending on the situation.

What about using a stack of tsunami?
has a 11% chance to change a tile to a coast tile (destroying any city, moving any units to a clear plot (or killing them, if none is found), and removing any Bonus, Improvement, or Feature.

Make 6 mages (with linch), giving 66% chance of converting a city to a coast each turn. Then instrad of fighting and razing cities, you just make cities vanish. Could be fun to try. Especially if you yse a stack of hidden nationality mages.

Or if you are using graft flesh, then maybe you could graft 9 Tsunami comando mages with hidden nationality shadows.

Giving 9 tsunami, comando, invisible, hidden nationality, flesh golems.
They can walk undetected through your “friends” teritory, and 99% chance of sinking a city eact turn. you won't need to declare war on a civilisation to destroy them. They won't even know what hit them.

The rest of the world will suffer the same fate as Atlantis.

Now I think that’s a bit of an overpowered exploit!

I can hardly imagine the 11% chance is cumulative. But my grasp of statistics is so bad that I can't remember what the real chance would be. But I'm guessing that with nine mages, it would be 100% minus the likelihood of nine strikeouts in a row (which, IIRC, is 89% to the power of nine - 35%). That means a roughly 65% for one or more successes.

Interesting, do you know if it's in 0.21 too ?

I believe that code is in the Python in 0.21. And remember, they didn't have the Upper limit on damage in 0.21.

I can hardly imagine the 11% chance is cumulative. But my grasp of statistics is so bad that I can't remember what the real chance would be. But I'm guessing that with nine mages, it would be 100% minus the likelihood of nine strikeouts in a row (which, IIRC, is 89% to the power of nine - 35%). That means a roughly 65% for one or more successes.

Yes, I was being lazy with my maths.

Ok, the chance of a strike out is 89%. So 9 strikeouts is .89^¨9=35%. So 65% chance of sinking a city in one turn. Or 88% chance of sinking it in 2 turns (the time many normal attacks take for bombard, then attack). Naturally you could also get lucky and sink it in the first go.

The statistics would average out over the long run, some cities having better luck then other, so with 9 units you'd average 10 cities in 10 turns. Hey, speed it up, make an army of invisible hidden nationality tsunami casters :P

This strategy would be most effective on archipelago maps, as you need to cast it on a tile next to the waters edge. Meaning that to get the inland cities you might need to strike a line of 2-3 tiles to make a water path to the city.

I just somehow like the idea of sinking a civilization without even declaring war on them, and them not even knowing where your mages are that are hitting them. And I don’t care if the best hero in the world is defending the city, it won’t make a lick of difference!

With commando, mobility, haste, spell extention2 you can end your turns hiding anywhere outside of the hawk search range.

I bet the dumb AI wouldent know what to do, but a human would press F9, see who has the council of esus and declare on them VERY fast before their entire civilization is sunk in a few turns. Hmm, maybe as defence you could destroy your own roads to stop commando, and then set up a fale safe net of hawks 9 tiles in all directions of every city. But by the time you realize what’s happening it’d be far too late.

This could actually be very beneficial if waterwalking was included in their promotions, then they could also use it for defence, artificially make a wall of coast/water between the civilizations, and always retreat to safety on the other side of the water wall.

hmm, i see lots of possibilities.

I'm SO never playing against you in MP:lol:

I've never intentionally duplicated nodes, always leaving my options open for the towers, although there have been some changes in 0.22 that might entice me to change that strategy, particularly if I'm playing a summoning heavy Civ.


First I want to point out that this thread is fine.

Secondly I did the same but now in 0.22 it seems to change.


The Grigori adventures gain 1 xp every turn and make excellent archmages. However, you may also consider giving them (and other arcane heroes) the combat promotions so that they can get access to Twincast.

How to get twincast when playing Malakim? Trying to get it after Combat IV I had to find out, that Combat V is without reach of my archmages. Why?

Death II works well enough in substitute except no one starts with that mana and for best use, you need some way around the disease. If you're facing the OO or AV, Life II Destroy Undead could be a good choice if you don't have to waste a node (although Lifesparks are nice for augmenting your units).


Contagion is an excellent softener, but since it can't kill anyone anymore it loses a good bit of its previous utility. I primarily use it to disease all the targets in a city before bashing away with fireballs... a few combat promotions on the mages, pulverized city defenses, collateral damage bringing everyone down to 60% of their maximum life and a 30% disease penalty on top of that, and fireballs will start taking lives. I like this combo enough that I'll try to get a death node fairly early with the Amurites. Doesn't hurt that this also will allow Govannon to start enabling the skeleton hordes when you bulb Arcane Lore.

Edit - Grey Fox and I, at least, have been spending a lot of time as Amurites lately. A lot of the pro vs. con late game mage arguments (free promotions vs. not as much time to pick up experience) in this post fall fully in favor of late for the Amurites, since they will be picking up a lot of bonus experience for their adepts in the late game through their Cave of Ancestors.

How to get twincast when playing Malakim? Trying to get it after Combat IV I had to find out, that Combat V is without reach of my archmages. Why?

You have to have the hero promotion to get twincast. Archmages aren't heroes. They can pick up enchantment three for spellstaves, but they can't twincast.

I believe the Malakim summoner hero can pick it up, though.

If there are lots of nodes available I wonder if it would even work out to get 3 fire and 3 earth, to have the powerful level 2 spells in the mid-game, and then crush etc in the end game.

My first strategy was more or less the same: Fire III and Earth III are the best offensive spells. But then I found Air III: Here you have a strong benefit as area spell. Dragons and others are protected against fire spells, but not so much against Maelstrom. And no fires are spreading.

If you place Air III ideally, not only cities are weakened but other units in the vicinity as well.

I'm SO never playing against you in MP:lol:


"WTF, where is my capital?"

LOL :D

Or if you are using graft flesh, then maybe you could graft 9 Tsunami comando mages with hidden nationality shadows.

Giving 9 tsunami, comando, invisible, hidden nationality, flesh golems.

They won't be invisible. Promotions are carried over but the invisibility of shadows is not a promotion.

You have to have the hero promotion to get twincast. Archmages aren't heroes. They can pick up enchantment three for spellstaves, but they can't twincast.

I believe the Malakim summoner hero can pick it up, though.
Thank you, :) it now is quite clear for me. I'll try. But summoning twice is by far not so effective.

Thank you, :) it now is quite clear for me. I'll try. But summoning twice is by far not so effective.

I think he has Law and Fire, doesn't he? Twin Hosts aren't bad, since they'll stay around every round as long as they win combats. I'll admit it's no twin meteor, but there's a reason why that spell is hard to twincast.

Not as the Grigori it's not :P

Didn't say it was impossible, just hard (and it can still be hard for the Grigori - given how a Philosophical culture is encouraged to avoid specialists to max adventurers). Still, for what the Grigori give up, it's a fair compensation.

I'm still a little more scared of heroic Shadows, but maybe that's just me.

I believe that code is in the Python in 0.21. And remember, they didn't have the Upper limit on damage in 0.21.

Yeah I found them in the custom functions. Although it's only a +25% with combat 5, I don't think a +5% is worth a level in a school of magic, especially with the upper limit damage that you mentioned.

Hmm, maybe as defence you could destroy your own roads to stop commando

You can't pillage you own roads, so that you can't stop the commando promotion (in Civ Vanilla it's pretty hard to get to the commando promotion).

I think he has Law and Fire, doesn't he? Twin Hosts aren't bad, since they'll stay around every round as long as they win combats. I'll admit it's no twin meteor, but there's a reason why that spell is hard to twincast.
Thank you. It's Chalid Astrakein o.s.
Yes, it is Fire III (Fire Elemental). Meteor would be much better.

Yeah I found them in the custom functions. Although it's only a +25% with combat 5, I don't think a +5% is worth a level in a school of magic, especially with the upper limit damage that you mentioned.
I fully agree with you. The more spell types the better.

Empower V Fireballs, Meteors, and Nightmares ftw!

I suggest that the highest level summons of each mana sphere should be set up with a mana affinity greater than one, to make mana specialisation more tempting.

If, for example, someone chooses three fire mana rather than a mix of three types, there should be some reward for gearing your whole civilsation that way, and strong summons sound reasonable to me. The benefits would only materialise in the later game when all civs are likely to also have a superweapon of some kind, and if players were sometimes tempted in this direction then opponents would have to consider the magic resistant / anti-summmon related promotions more than now, which I suspect would add to variety of gameplay.