Lincoln is Philosophical and Charismatic

Alexander and Lincoln each have a bad UU and traits that try to offer a good side for builders and warmongers. This ends up offering little to both builders and warmongers. So, will Lincoln go the way of Alexander?

Having the revered Lincoln in the game always made me feel uncomfortable, in the same way that I would feel bad if my grandfather's face appeared on the negotiations screen, and I have to be harsh with him. Do you know what I mean?

Having the revered Lincoln in the game always made me feel uncomfortable, in the same way that I would feel bad if my grandfather's face appeared on the negotiations screen, and I have to be harsh with him. Do you know what I mean?

Yes, it's like how I always feel bad declaring war on Mahatma Gandhi.
I do it anyways, of course, but I do feel bad about it.

Yes, it's like how I always feel bad declaring war on Mahatma Gandhi.
I do it anyways, of course, but I do feel bad about it.

I have less of a problem with Gandhi, but yes, that's the issue I'm talking about.

I think it's a damn good trait combo - a good warmonger needs a strong economy to back it up, and philo gives the lovely extra great people necessary for that. Besides, Philo and farm economies promote a more aggressive approach anyway, with more whipping and hammers for unit production. +1/+2 happy helps with that too.
It's not a combo that rewards pure building, but even the bloodthirstiest warmonger spends a fair bit of time at peace, and needs some empire development - and to me, a hybrid combo works much better than a purely military one, which is really just overkill.

I think it's a damn good trait combo - a good warmonger needs a strong economy to back it up, and philo gives the lovely extra great people necessary for that. Besides, Philo and farm economies promote a more aggressive approach anyway, with more whipping and hammers for unit production. +1/+2 happy helps with that too.
It's not a combo that rewards pure building, but even the bloodthirstiest warmonger spends a fair bit of time at peace, and needs some empire development - and to me, a hybrid combo works much better than a purely military one, which is really just overkill.

When you are warmongering, you often don't have much time to be building wonders. The traits would only be a small problem if it wasn't for America's bad UU and UB. They are each small problems, but they are huge when combined. This gives Lincoln almost NO stronge points.

When you are warmongering, you often don't have much time to be building wonders. The traits would only be a small problem if it wasn't for America's bad UU and UB. They are each small problems, but they are huge when combined. This gives Lincoln almost NO stronge points.
I don't see how a lack of wonders is a problem. Great Library aside, if you're relying on wonders for anything more than a trivial boost to GP production, you're probably not getting anywhere near the most out of Philo anyway.

When I saw the trait combo I think about taking advantage of charismatic to go for a small-scaled war first for moderate empire expansion. Then turn peaceful and go hard for the SE. Or go all the way peaceful, use the extra happiness to have more GP, lightbulbs all the way to liberalism. Then go aggressive. The combo itself is OK, not great, but OK. It's just the UU never comes in at the right time.

The traits are especially good if you build Stonehenge. You get four priest points per turn and one happiness per city. Although I might prefer Oracle and monuments.

I'm not sure about that "poor unique unit/building" bit, yes america has late game units and buildings, but my best friend is addicted to those Navy Seals.

Also, the Mall might combine pretty well with corporations. That 20% gold bonus is decent, and if you have corporations and great people bringing in the gold that is even better, not to mention if you get hit singles and musicals.

In the modern age this civilization is going to have a TON of happiness and health bonus' under Lincoln, plus money to burn, and a Unique unit that is just coming into play long after other civs have spent their time in the sun.

BTS is focusing on the late game, so more should be going on then. Having your Unique Unit and Unique building come into play at that time could give America some distinct advantages.

Maybe we need to give this "poor" civilization choice another look once we get our hands on BTS? They could really shake things up.

BTS is focusing on the late game, so more should be going on then. Having your Unique Unit and Unique building come into play at that time could give America some distinct advantages.

Maybe we need to give this "poor" civilization choice another look once we get our hands on BTS? They could really shake things up.

Really good point. I find myself delaying victory in some games as America and Germany simply because I want to kick some butt with their UUs; now I can do this without waiting approx. 5,500 years...

And in fact, those are the only modern UUs I can think of. They heyday of most UUs will be over by that point in time.

Hey. General question open to everybody- I am just wondering what SE stands for. It is probably obvious and I am just slow but I keep on seeing it used without knowing what people are talking about. Thanks.

When I saw the trait combo I think about taking advantage of charismatic to go for a small-scaled war first for moderate empire expansion. Then turn peaceful and go hard for the SE. Or go all the way peaceful, use the extra happiness to have more GP, lightbulbs all the way to liberalism. Then go aggressive. The combo itself is OK, not great, but OK. It's just the UU never comes in at the right time.

Specialist Economy is what SE stands for

I'm not sure about that "poor unique unit/building" bit, yes america has late game units and buildings, but my best friend is addicted to those Navy Seals.

Also, the Mall might combine pretty well with corporations. That 20% gold bonus is decent, and if you have corporations and great people bringing in the gold that is even better, not to mention if you get hit singles and musicals.

In the modern age this civilization is going to have a TON of happiness and health bonus' under Lincoln, plus money to burn, and a Unique unit that is just coming into play long after other civs have spent their time in the sun.

BTS is focusing on the late game, so more should be going on then. Having your Unique Unit and Unique building come into play at that time could give America some distinct advantages.

Maybe we need to give this "poor" civilization choice another look once we get our hands on BTS? They could really shake things up.


Exactly. Lincoln might end up being one of the best American leaders to play as. That +1 happiness always helps. I just posted in the other thread--don't count him out yet. The late game is going to be quite intense, from what I can tell.

Here's another tidbit to think about: no warmonger traits will boost aircraft, but presumeably the Charismatic -25% XP for promotions will. So, Cha leaders like Lincoln might have the advantage in the skies...and with a UU during the age of aircraft to boot, he might be a good late-game contender.

Alex doesnt have a bad UU. Phalanx eat war elephants.

Greece > Lincoln's America

So, no, it'll be worse.

Also, while Aggressive is indeed a warmonger-only trait, I don't consider Charismatic to be such as well - imo, it is a nice all-round trait that is useful both for builders and warmongers. In fact, Charismatic "peaceful" bonus, i.e. extra happiness, offers very nice synergy with Philosophical for a SE empire.

And he gets even more happiness from American UB.

As for the UU, I have always thought that with some overpowered exceptions (e.g. Praetorians) it has the least influence on a civilization's strategy.

I don't know why everybody runs down America. Personally, if you have any real skill at all ;) you won't need to rely on a specific UU to win the game.

Philosophical will make SE people very interested. Charismatic means more promotions, and since a lot of SE games end up as domination/conquest victories this will be extremely useful. Honestly, the real criticism I hear of America over and over again has absolutely nothing to do with leader traits and personalities, but the UU and UB. That's it--"they come too late." To that I reply that any good Roman player will laugh at all the other civilizations whose UUs don't come in the ancient or classical ages--because the game is over by then. :) It's all relative.

Everybody has to realize that one of BtS's main selling points is an extended late game. I have a feeling that America will be able to get more use out of the Navy SEAL and the Mall from now on.

Really good point. I find myself delaying victory in some games as America and Germany simply because I want to kick some butt with their UUs; now I can do this without waiting approx. 5,500 years...

And in fact, those are the only modern UUs I can think of. They heyday of most UUs will be over by that point in time.

As someone reminded me in a post the other day, the new advance starts means you can play games that begin in the modern age.

America will have a huge advantage in those games.

The phil trait can be used very well as a war monger by mass producing great merchants in the great person city. Build the great lighthouse near seafood, beeline to COL to activate Caste system and use all merchants. You can then run close to 100% science beakers (gold from merchants), great if could nail the pyramids in another city and switch to representation and use the great merchants to continually upgrade your experienced troops OR switch to universal sufferage and buy them. Maybe a little tough to get sarted but once you do Abe would be a pretty powerful mid to late game war-monger. Just have to be patient and avoid an early axe-rush.

I would have no problems declaring war on Lincoln, Ghandi or almost any other CIV. I do have a senstimental side for Washington as the father of America and have to restrain trying to be too friendly with (aside from Tokugawa and Isabella he's one of the toughest civs to get Friendly).

I think Alexander has an excellent trait combination, but Lincoln's might even be superior. Philosophical is always useful. One great person farm is all it takes to pretty much fully leverage the trait. Whether you're a builder or a warmonger, it's a great trait. Aggressive is mostly a warmonger trait, but it's used automatically as well, and isn't wasted except in purely peaceful games. The great thing for me about using Alexander is that both of his traits are always useful at Prince level plus.

Charismatic is probably superior to Aggressive though because of the happiness bonus. Lincoln is a great option for a peaceful leader and a credible warmonger with great potential for a lightbulb economy. The only traits that might be better with Philosophical are Expansive (if health instead of happiness is limiting your number of specialists) or Spiritual, for painless access to Pacifism and/or Caste System.

I think I'm going to enjoy Lincoln a lot, before even considering the shift to a later game emphasis.

philosphical, ironically perhaps, has good synergy with the mall. Easier to get great engineers for building hollywood, etc., which get boosted with the mall, or GP for corporation founding, the profits of which get boosted 20% from the mall.

Here's another tidbit to think about: no warmonger traits will boost aircraft, but presumeably the Charismatic -25% XP for promotions will. So, Cha leaders like Lincoln might have the advantage in the skies...and with a UU during the age of aircraft to boot, he might be a good late-game contender.

That is an interesting point. Especially if the late game is suddenly so much more important.

I'm actually picturing the Americans in general, and Lincoln in particular, being able to shake up the late game quite a bit. The happiness bonus' from holly-wood and Rock'n'roll, combined with a powerful UU, and control of the skies . . . it could be a military combo that really has synergy.

Especially since with Lincoln you won't have unhappiness and unhealthiness problems, your huge cities can rake in GP, and then you can use them to found religions and corporations, gaining income/resources, while your malls give you 20% extra money per city to fund the war effort.

And how huge will a religious player get with this civilization? If you go for relgion over war, and are skilled enough to take 1-2 religions away from the computer . . . your cities could be HUGE in the mid to late game, and your income could jump through the roof. I'll have to look up exactly when you get the grocer but . .

Reading this thread I'm even less inclined to agree with whoever said lincoln/america was a bad leader/civ. He may get a slow START, but it's looking like he'll have constant acceleration into the late game.

And with a SE and philosophical he COULD start off running pretty fast with a good human player. You can't depend on UU/UB to make or break your strategy.

To many cultures MIGHT not get theirs ever. Dutch in the center of a pangea? Rome without Iron? Any of the "Knight" replacements without horses? What about ethiopia without Ivory? That's a pretty rare resource.

Good Civ players could be REALLY scary with Lincoln and America. I might just have to squish them early before they can get to me.

I think Alexander has an excellent trait combination.


I feel he is one of the best all-around Leaders.


Starts with a Scout to quickly find your opposition and pop more huts with
The Phalanx is one of the longest living UU in the game tied to a necessary tech. Build a cheap barracks and train Aggressive enhanced Phalanxes available at an early necessary tech allowing you to capture cities with "Spearmen".
Pair Phalanxes with Axe-men for an easy to assemble, ancient era Stack-o-Doom that has no counter for a LONG time that can be built using two seperate strategic resources.
A useful Unique Building tied to a necessary tech at a time where both happiness & culture generation are needed most.
Philosophical offering cheap Universities for an excellent late game city improvement to max out your beaker generation at the time you've popped out your 10th Great Scientist (or more) from your Great Person City.

I think Lincoln has his work cut out to match this level of competitiveness & effectiveness at so many different eras in the game. Very interested to use him at a late-era start and all of his military prowess.

One of the things I always like about America is that it teaches you not to rely on any one unit or building to cement your win. Some civs are biased in favor of one victory type or another (Rome = conquest/domination, India under Gandhi is more likely to get a cultural/space race, etc.) but America provides one of the widest ranges of possibilities, with a few select other civs. Industrious with Roosevelt means good wonder building, so GPs for an SE or whatnot are possible. Washington, with charismatic, is very good at early war and an Axemen rush, despite the lack of a UU in that era, and expansive means those cities won't suffer as much from happiness/health issues. Good grief, expansive is often cited as being too powerful! That's why it's been toned down for the worker bonus. With charismatic, it's ideal for early expansion.

The problem is the play style for America, as in Civ 3, is less-than-obvious. It's not as plain as if you were, say, Huayna Capac or Elizabeth, where you know to spam cottages immediately due to financial. It requires a more subtle strategy to win and a different level of thought. For this reason, I often find American wins all the more satisfying.

The problem is the play style for America, as in Civ 3, is less-than-obvious. It's not as plain as if you were, say, Huayna Capac or Elizabeth, where you know to spam cottages immediately due to financial. It requires a more subtle strategy to win and a different level of thought. For this reason, I often find American wins all the more satisfying.

I haven't played as America all that much (2 games out of ~2 dozen in Warlords, according to my Hall of Fame), but I have to agree with you--winning with an unconventional approach or non-quotidian strategy is one of the most satisfying victories. Personally, I like to challenge myself (build up my economy stronger than a Financial AI without the Financial trait, for example). And nothing is more entertaining than conquering the world as Gandhi. :)

Dont forget about quick starts, when using them suddenly americas "bad" uu and ub become much better prospects then the early age uu/ubs of other civs.

I'm not sure about that "poor unique unit/building" bit, yes america has late game units and buildings, but my best friend is addicted to those Navy Seals.

Also, the Mall might combine pretty well with corporations. That 20% gold bonus is decent, and if you have corporations and great people bringing in the gold that is even better, not to mention if you get hit singles and musicals.

In the modern age this civilization is going to have a TON of happiness and health bonus' under Lincoln, plus money to burn, and a Unique unit that is just coming into play long after other civs have spent their time in the sun.

BTS is focusing on the late game, so more should be going on then. Having your Unique Unit and Unique building come into play at that time could give America some distinct advantages.

Maybe we need to give this "poor" civilization choice another look once we get our hands on BTS? They could really shake things up.

Wow...that is an excellent point. In BtS the Americans might be very strong indeed.

I like Washington and Roosevelt too. Chm/Exp is quite synergistic for having big, healthy cities early, when you think about it. Well-improved cities, at that, thanks to Expansive. Ind/Org is decent for warmongering. Especially if you sling Metal Casting. Cheap forges AND cheap courthouses is pretty sweet, and wonders can be undertaken more lightly. Organized lets you run a big empire easily. Chm/Phi, I actually have experience with, as that's what I modded Mao to be(makes a hell of a lot more sense than his current combo:rolleyes: ) and it's actually fairly effective. It's just the unique stuff that's underwhelming when you talk America. The leaders are all pretty good.

As for Alex, the Phalanx is pretty good, though misrepresented. Hopefully, it really is being changed to an axe replacement in BtS. The UB is golden. My major beef is with the starting techs. Hunting and Fishing suck in tandem, because you're behind unless you're on the coast. His traits are also a little de-synched as far as your early tech path goes, and you need libraries, keep that in mind. All of this goes away later on, but he can be difficult especially early.