We know the Incas got lucky with their UB, but the Dutch are sick.:D

Dutch
Leader: Willem van Oranje - Creative, Financial
Starting Techs: Fishing, Agriculture
Unique Unit: East Indiaman (Galleon), +2 strength and one extra cargo space, can also explore rival territory.
Unique Building: Dike (Levee), grants +1 production from all water tiles

Apart from the Creative/Financial combo which was awesome with Cathy in vanilla. +1 production from water tiles? Talk about insane. Babylon got +1 health only..

From what I gather, the levee (that the dike replaces) can only be built by a riverside city. And it doesn't come until Steam Power, which is a fair while to wait. Still, they should be an absolute coastal powerhouse of a civ.

The Hippodrome, Rathaus and Feitoria all also look to be pretty damn powerful.
The ziggurat seems pretty disappointing, since it's a poor man's Sacrificial Altar without the whipping bonus either. Don't imagine I'll be building many Babylonian gardens either.

It looks like a very good UU, but I think the thing that keeps it from being too powerful is that by that point in the game, land tiles are much better than even financial water tiles. Even on an archipelago type map, those maps usually don't have so many rivers.

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OK, I will

Not over powered, just very good :)

Na, I didn't have much bother spanking him in my last noble game, he was on the coast and was the nearest civ to me. I still think you'll get more production elsewhere, I don't like life as a costal civ!

Wassup with Babylons UB? +1 health only! Surely this must be a typo... or the worst UB ever...

William will have crazy water tiles:
Financial: 3 gold
Dike: 1 hammer
Lighthouse: 2 food
Colossus: 2 gold

My oh my

Wassup with Babylons UB? +1 health only! Surely this must be a typo... or the worst UB ever...

yeah my thoughts exactly... Want to look up what the Supermarket statistics are? DONT, you wont like what you read.

We know the Incas got lucky with their UB, but the Dutch are sick.:D

Dutch
Leader: Willem van Oranje - Creative, Financial
Starting Techs: Fishing, Agriculture
Unique Unit: East Indiaman (Galleon), +2 strength and one extra cargo space, can also explore rival territory.
Unique Building: Dike (Levee), grants +1 production from all water tiles

Apart from the Creative/Financial combo which was awesome with Cathy in vanilla. +1 production from water tiles? Talk about insane. Babylon got +1 health only..

Does water tiles refer "only" to Sea tiles or also to lake tiles and even river tiles ?

Does water tiles refer "only" to Sea tiles or also to lake tiles and even river tiles ?

The normal Levee building already boosts production of river tiles, so it makes sense that the dike boosts production of other water tiles, like sea and lake tiles.

Does water tiles refer "only" to Sea tiles or also to lake tiles and even river tiles ?
hmm, i think that this only make sense with coast tiles...
we will see ;)

Coasts, lakes, and ocean tiles that are within reach of the city.

I wonder if Dike/Levee can only be build in cities build over rivers, or it can be built anywhere (just benefits only cities near rivers/coastal in case of Dike). If it is the former, then the Dutch UB, while very nice, is of a limited use, since in order to benefit from it you would have to have a city that has both coastal tiles and is built over a river, which will not be extremely common.

For multiplayer games played on separated continents Dutch will be very powerfull - the only drawback I see is the Creative trait... if it would be something more useful like Industrious, Expansive, Imperialistic, even Aggresive then they would be simply the best for such games.

No one mentioned Totem Pole yet - it's a great thing, their UU is also great, so I'm really waiting for the day when BtS will be available.

The normal Levee building already boosts production of river tiles, so it makes sense that the dike boosts production of other water tiles, like sea and lake tiles.

Yeah but if the Dike is a UB then I suppose Dutch can't build the Levee, so the question is, is it safe to suppose it will be +1 hammer for river, lake, coast and ocean tiles ?

Imagine Churchill of the Native Americans

Protective + Charismatic + Totem Pole ..

yes, it will do the same as Levee but with something extra

At first I thought the Steele was overpowered (chinese Pagoda from teh start) but I guess it will obsolete at Calander.

None of the UB are overpowered in my opinion.

That being said, if Firaxis nerfs anything in patches I will NOT be patching it as long as there are no major performance issues. I can deal with slow turns and small glitches.

The Babylonian Gardens seem to be a very weak UB, but at least Hammurabi has great traits and a near invincible city defender in the early game.

The Babylonian Gardens seem to be a very weak UB, but at least Hammurabi has great traits and a near invincible city defender in the early game.

Agreed. Compare the Babylonian Gardens to the Ottoman Hammam:

Hammam needs Math + Masonry
Garden needs Construction (1 more tech)

Hammam costs 100 hammers and allows you to build the HG.
Garden costs 80 hammers.

Hammam gives +2 health and +2 happy.
Garden gives +1 happy, +1 health, and +1 happy per 20%.

That's a bad comparison.

OTOH, it effectively gives the Babylonians the HG extra health in every city and +1 health is helpful in the mid and late game.

At first I thought the Steele was overpowered (chinese Pagoda from teh start) but I guess it will obsolete at Calander.

Yeah, it will probably go obsolete, but it is stil a good early UB for a creative leader.

according to that IGN article the Dutch UB will grant 1 production to water tiles, it says nothing about riverside. Right now there is no production on any water tiles, so that would seem to be a big benefit in production for your coastal cities.

Llama-check the Levee info, the building the dike replaces. I don't know of any UB that remove the effects of the building that they replace, so it probably would add to rivers too.

So it further puzzles me why they took away my favorite financial/creative combo from Catherine (and also nerfed the Cossack) for "balance" in the first place, if this powerful combo will be reassigned later to another leader. So does it mean there's no balance issue? :confused:

Imagine Churchill of the Native Americans

Protective + Charismatic + Totem Pole ..

Drill IV Archers using Baracks, Totem, and 2xp Civic.

Archers with 30% reduced collateral damage, 10% attack against mounted units, and 6-7 first strikes and 50% defense of cities.

Sorry for double posting this, but I just saw this thread and I felt that it might be more appropriate here. Can someone explain to me how Khmer's building works? It says "one additional food," but what does that mean? Just a single additional food for each city, or additional food for certain tiles that are worked, or what? If it's the first way, it seems useless; if it's the second way, it could be extremely powerful... But I don't know... :confused:

While Creative is nice as a civ trait; Expansive would have more appropriate with respect to Dutch culture and history.

All-in-all I really like the Dutch as presented in BTS, but I would not have chosen Creative for them.

Sorry for double posting this, but I just saw this thread and I felt that it might be more appropriate here. Can someone explain to me how Khmer's building works? It says "one additional food," but what does that mean? Just a single additional food for each city, or additional food for certain tiles that are worked, or what? If it's the first way, it seems useless; if it's the second way, it could be extremely powerful... But I don't know... :confused:

Since the Khmer UB is a building, I reckon it means +1 :food: in cities which have this UB. :)
As on your opinion of it being useless, think again. It means you can use this extra plot for a cottage instead of a farm, or have an extra specialist while your city is still able to grow. Surely you can see the benefit of that?

Yes but it's only 1 food, you need 2 food to feed a specialist... Maybe it's not useless, but it's still relatively minor. I think it'd be much more valuable with 2 or 3 extra food instead of 1 because 1 food is not enough to feed a single population...

+1 :food: in every tile would be ridiculously overpowered. Khmer would never have to irrigate those plains, meaning cottage spam galore. For an SE this effectively means +50% specialists on average... Irrigate grassland for +4 :food:, and floodplains for +5 :food:!

1 extra :food: is still useful, however. That's roughly the same as +1 :health: since :yuck: takes away :food:, making it a good solution to unhealthiness problems. Of course, if you have no :yuck:, then that could mean 1 extra cottage tile, or 1 extra specialist per city... little things have a tendency to add up.

+1 food is the same benefit if you settle a Great Merchant in your city, so you could look at it that way although I still think it's not that great.

when I think of Dutch, there are only 2 traits that must come to mind: financial and creative

A question about the totem pole (monumnet). It should go obsolete at calander so Sitting Bull would only get the benefits for archer units, not crossbow or Longbow (assuming you get calander before Fuedalism). You could either pay to upgrade all your existing archers or get Fuedalism/machinery first, switch to Vassalage and build alot of long/crossbowmen, then research calander.

Dike + Maori Statues + IronWorks

Then add a lighthouse, Maybe even a Great Lighthouse, so the Dutch look good when it comes to coastal cities.

hmmmm i know not everything in a building gets obsoleted.. but if that +3xp does.... its a sad day :(

While Creative is nice as a civ trait; Expansive would have more appropriate with respect to Dutch culture and history.

All-in-all I really like the Dutch as presented in BTS, but I would not have chosen Creative for them.

Have you heard of Vincent Van Gogh?!

Have you heard of Vincent Van Gogh?!
no. Have you?

no. Have you?

Well, he was a very famous Dutch artist. I think he and the other Dutch artists are the reason why the Dutch leader is Creative rather than Expansive.

You've never heard of Van Gogh? The famous artist who cut off his own ear? The one who painted Starry Night (among many others)?

oh now i remember him.

Firaxis picks traits based on the leader not the civilization.

Rathaus is the only one which looks overpowered at the moment.

The Hippodrome potentially provides a lot of happiness but its not like you'll very often need that much happiness. It seems to be, in effect, a theatre which provides commerce.

The dike is powerful but will probably be limited in where it can be placed - riverside cities - and appears in the industrial age.

The Stele is thouroughly underwhelming.

The Ziggurat would have seemed pretty good if the Rathaus didn't exist.

Mad Scientist:
A question about the totem pole (monumnet). It should go obsolete at calander so Sitting Bull would only get the benefits for archer units, not crossbow or Longbow (assuming you get calander before Fuedalism). You could either pay to upgrade all your existing archers or get Fuedalism/machinery first, switch to Vassalage and build alot of long/crossbowmen, then research calander.

Why research calender that early? The only reason is if you need the health bonus from calender activated resources. Other than that you don't need calender until you want astronomy. Either way it would still be worth waiting until feudalism.

I am disappointed with the Stele though. It would be extremely powerful if it didn't go obsolete so early. But the way it is, even if you build Stonehenge and get a Stele in every city, I'm not sure if the Stele would even matter until you have a culture point from religion or something. I imagine you need 4 culture per turn to get the 25% bonus, so then you'd have 5 culture a turn... I just really don't see what the point of it is, unless you have a really close Creative neighbor that you need to push back. But I just would like to see a UB that is a bit more effective...

Don't you need calander for optics? Not sure since I always have calander first. Also if you have alot of dye/spice/sugar/bananas that's alot of commerce/food/health to give up for an extra +3 experience on longbos/crossbows with a protective leader.

Have you heard of Vincent Van Gogh?!

Yes I have heard of Vincent, yes I have seen Rembrant's "Nightwatch" in Amsterdam. But Dutch artistic successes pale in comparison to the naval and trade accomplishments of its Golden Age, not to mention phenomenal success with agriculture and land reclamation up to modern times...

Given what the pragmatic Dutch have done to build a nation, culture was just a luxury. In Civ IV Creative awards cheap coliseums and cheap theatres (in addition to the +2 culture), while Expansive awards cheap granaries and harbours (in addition to +2 Health). The reknown of a few great painters is overshadowed by more fundamental nation building, thus I see plenty Dutch harbors and Dutch granaries (along with the fanatistic new dikes :)), and but little of Dutch coliseums and Dutch theatres.

Firaxis picks traits based on the leader not the civilization.

This is the part that is tricky. If a civ has only one leader, then it's history risks being misrepresented by that one leader's traits - at least the compromise that stems from having only one leader risks doing that.

Look, I may be fussy, but I really think that in taking everything into account, the Dutch civ would have been better served by a Fin/Exp leader rather than a Fin/Cre leader. :) Expansive "fits" the Dutch better than creative - at least to me :cool:

Yes I have heard of Vincent, yes I have seen Rembrant's "Nightwatch" in Amsterdam. But Dutch artistic successes pale in comparison to the naval and trade accomplishments of its Golden Age, not to mention phenomenal success with agriculture and land reclamation up to modern times...

Given what the pragmatic Dutch have done to build a nation, culture was just a luxury. In Civ IV Creative awards cheap coliseums and cheap theatres (in addition to the +2 culture), while Expansive awards cheap granaries and harbours (in addition to +2 Health). The reknown of a few great painters is overshadowed by more fundamental nation building, thus I see plenty Dutch harbors and Dutch granaries (along with the fanatistic new dikes :)), and but little of Dutch coliseums and Dutch theatres.

This is the part that is tricky. If a civ has only one leader, then it's history risks being misrepresented by that one leader's traits - at least the compromise that stems from having only one leader risks doing that.

Look, I may be fussy, but I really think that in taking everything into account, the Dutch civ would have been better served by a Fin/Exp leader rather than a Fin/Cre leader. :) Expansive "fits" the Dutch better than creative - at least to me :cool:

When I was speculating about the Dutch, I though they would either give them EXP/FIN or CRE/FIN. Mind that Dutch architecture, art and literature was very influencial during the Golden Age. Therefore in my opinion both could fit the Dutch perfectly.
By choosing going with CRE/FIN and giving them a naval UU they covered both angles.

The best trait combo for the dutch (IMO) would have been Qin/Huayna's old Fin-Ind, but given the Dike, that might have been plain broken.

While Creative is nice as a civ trait; Expansive would have more appropriate with respect to Dutch culture and history.

All-in-all I really like the Dutch as presented in BTS, but I would not have chosen Creative for them.

Well, he was a very famous Dutch artist. I think he and the other Dutch artists are the reason why the Dutch leader is Creative rather than Expansive.

Firaxis picks traits based on the leader not the civilization.

I think its both based an leader and civ. Creative because of our golden age. (not our leader, or it would be organized or spiritual) and financial, cause both civ and leader where that.
But personaly I would rather have seen expansive/organized and financial.

well i make that statement based on the other traits firaxis has picked for the leaders. not disputing the traits that would represent the Netherlands just i tihink thats how firaxis picks traits.

Something to note about the Dike is that while, based on Warlords, arriving at Steam Power sounds bad, it's really not because in BtS the portion of the game from that era on got lengthened considerably, while the eras before that were barely touched. It'll have some time to shine.

I think Imperialistic is more accurate than expansive for the dutch. Expansive is more like polynesians sending boats to little islands all over the pacific. Financial/imperialistic, favorite civic, slavery *ducks*