Consequently, it seems that most late wonders are gettable on Monarch, as long as you research the required technology before the computer. However, of the late wonders, which are worth getting? Assume of course that the game lasts long enough to get to them! personally, I still think the Hoover/Three Gorges Dam is the best wonder from Civ 1 - Present, and The Statue Of Liberty/Kremlin are the next best late wonders for Civ 4.

I still think the Hoover/Three Gorges Dam is the best wonder from Civ 1 - Present
Neg that ghostrider. It seems cool, but when you consider that a coal plants can be built much earlier, and that 2 unhealthiness is so minor, especially by that point in the game, it's a waste of hammers.
The Statue Of Liberty/Kremlin are the next best late wonders for Civ 4.
I may have to agree. Cash rushing is huge. The biggest thing since axemen.

I don't know why the SoL is so important to most players, but their enthusiasm has me convinced.

The Eiffel Tower and The Sistine Chapel I like to build when I'm going for a cultural victory.
The Statue of Liberty and The Taj Mahal I sometimes build when I can because I like the wonders and the extra specialist/golden age they offer.
Finally I sometimes build the The Space Elevator when it fits my plans.
Overall I build very very little, but these wonders I sometimes build when I have the chance or feel like it.

None are essential, its really just opportunistic - having a city build wonders when you have 20 cities isn't a big opportunity cost. I like the late game happiness wonders for extra trade opportunities and I like the SOL (but it is hugely expensive) with a big empire.

I agree - three gorges is a waste of time. Kremlin is huge.

None are essential, its really just opportunistic - having a city build wonders when you have 20 cities isn't a big opportunity cost. I like the late game happiness wonders for extra trade opportunities and I like the SOL (but it is hugely expensive) with a big empire.

I agree - three gorges is a waste of time. Kremlin is huge.

I don't know, I still like having the one super production city building the Dam, and then every other city getting the boost from it. I see what you mean about the tech coming later though, as it is though, you still have a while to build factories (with a non-Organized leader) You can use coal in a few cities and then buld the Dam for the rest.

Another thing, why hasn't anyone voted for the University of Sankore? The tech requirement for it (Paper) is generally one I get before the computer (on the way to education) and it gives you +4 research in every city with a temple and monestary. What's not to like?

It really all depends, doesn't it, on the game situation? If I'm going for Space Race victory, I love the Space Elevator. For Cultural Victory, I like the Eiffel Tower, and at least some of the Hollywood/Broadway/Rock&Roll trifecta.
If I have a large empire, I like the Three Gorges Dam, but it doesn't really pay off for a smaller empire. And of course, a Diplomatic Victory, it's pretty helpful to build the U.N.

I was also thinking, the +2 health bonus from Dariuses apothocary will offset the -2 health from coal plants! I can't wait to play him in the BTS expansion.

I didn't vote since the answer to the question is "some of these in some games" but definitely not all in all games, and different leaders in different games would have different results from building the various wonders ... so the question is easy to ask but impossible to answer... at least in a concise way.:sad:

Obviously some wonders make for good combinations, like if you do "get religion" and build University of Sankore then obviously build the Spiral Minaret too. Both get a bonus from stone and both need the same other buildings to prosper and same civics to be run.

Other wonders like Kremlin are great if you run a CE with US, but nearly useless for a SE (running Representation) and bit of a waste for a HE that hasn't got a way to raise loads of cash. On the otherhand the SoL is great for a SE that has lots cities on one continent but only moderate for a CE.

A leader should choose a strategy that blends several wonders together that helps his overall aims. It is easy (particularly at Monarch) to spend too much time and hammers building wonders. This is particularly true when you consider that if you let an enemy build the wonder for you, and you build units instead, after the war you end up with his city and the wonder and he is weaker (and less of a threat) and you are stronger. That is a winning strategy in more ways than one.

I don't know, I still like having the one super production city building the Dam, and then every other city getting the boost from it. I see what you mean about the tech coming later though, as it is though, you still have a while to build factories (with a non-Organized leader) You can use coal in a few cities and then buld the Dam for the rest.

Another thing, why hasn't anyone voted for the University of Sankore? The tech requirement for it (Paper) is generally one I get before the computer (on the way to education) and it gives you +4 research in every city with a temple and monestary. What's not to like?


Because it won't work with Free religion which I end up running in a lot of games. If I am warmonging a lot and have a lot of captured holy cities and religions then I'll go free religion for happiness. Or I may want to run it for diplomatic reasons.

Because it won't work with Free religion which I end up running in a lot of games. If I am warmonging a lot and have a lot of captured holy cities and religions then I'll go free religion for happiness. Or I may want to run it for diplomatic reasons.

I spend the vast majority of the game running Organized religion. Having just one monestary per city makes up for the free religion science bonus. Then with the university of Sankore and the Spiral Mineret, you are getting +2 gold, +2 science, +2 culture, +10% science for the monestary in your main religionm, which is very helpful indeed!

Certainly I wouldn't consider running Free religion until after monestaries are obselete.

I'm really surprised people would still go after Kremlin, especially after it got sort of nerfed since the earlier vanilla release. Not to mention... not only was its bonus nerfed, but it has the shortest lifespan of all wonders. It's sort of like, building a castle and having them obsolete in 10 turns lol.

Gorges Damn is very powerful. It has NO obsolete date, and the bigger your empire is, the greater its effects. Its expensive, but if one wonder can save power on 15 cities, well count up all those hammers and time saved. Also the better health is not to be underlooked. Then ontop of this, the fact that you don't have to worry about not having coal or other resources to shut down power, ever in your other cities you can see how big gorges damn really is.

There really is no comparison between silly Kremlin & the Damn. The AI goes after both, but the former is useless even to the AI. YOU, as the human player should know better...

The Dam is a waste - you need plastics which is a late tech - by the time you actually build it any production city should have already built coal plants (they are very cheap to build considering you already have a forge and factory by then). So you save health only. But by then you have the late game health techs too. Any production city that needs health can build a hospital in a handful of turns. And most of them won't even need health by then.

It's not just health. You are guaranteed POWER. So even if you have no river, and no one will give you any coal, etc, you still get POWER. Even if you have coal, and someone pillages it, you will STILL GET POWER. This is another issue people over-look. And while I won't go over-board into how valuable the GPs produced give (they dont matter much by that stage), it is a big deal. All your other cities can build units, etc instead of polution producing buildings which will be useless after the wonder is complete, and are vulnerable even when working. And not having to worry about meltdowns also is a plus :P

You should only build ONE coal burning city (if you can get coal), that is the city which will end up building the Damn, as you'lll build it faster. All other cities should only build factories. Then boom, instant electricity when avail an d no hassles.

Now, just possibly, if you find yourself with only one city, then perhaps the damn may not be so usefull as you'll only be benefiting that city, which will probably already have power to begin with. Though it can't hurt getting the Damn, you may ask yourself if those hammers are really worth it, in that case you have an arguement. Though denying the AI from grabbing this wonder if most his cities don't have power yet can be a BIG deal in itself. And thus you may want to build it even if you don't need it.

It's not just health. You are guaranteed POWER. So even if you have no river, and no one will give you any coal, etc, you still get POWER. Even if you have coal, and someone pillages it, you will STILL GET POWER. This is another issue people over-look. And while I won't go over-board into how valuable the GPs produced give (they dont matter much by that stage), it is a big deal. All your other cities can build units, etc instead of polution producing buildings which will be useless after the wonder is complete, and are vulnerable even when working. And not having to worry about meltdowns also is a plus :P

You should only build ONE coal burning city (if you can get coal), that is the city which will end up building the Damn, as you'lll build it faster. All other cities should only build factories. Then boom, instant electricity when avail an d no hassles.

Now, just possibly, if you find yourself with only one city, then perhaps the damn may not be so usefull as you'll only be benefiting that city, which will probably already have power to begin with. Though it can't hurt getting the Damn, you may ask yourself if those hammers are really worth it, in that case you have an arguement. Though denying the AI from grabbing this wonder if most his cities don't have power yet can be a BIG deal in itself. And thus you may want to build it even if you don't need it.

I almost always build the dam. But I see what all the other people are saying. There are a number of research paths to Assembly Line (for coal plants) that still leave you many, many turns away from the plastics you need for the Three-Gorges Dam. It is a bit unclear though, why Coal Plants do not become available with Industrialism rather than Assembly Line.

As for the Kremlin, prior to the nerf it was probably my favorite wonder. And certainly it is still resonably powerful after the nerf. There are a number of cities that I conquer that are pitifully underdeveloped. Once the Kremlin is up, I put science down to virtually nothing and I save up some money. Then every one of those cities gets it's theaters, graneries, lighthouses, forges, temples, marketplaces, libraries and courthouses built immediately via the state. This is immensely helpful to the cities early growth and probably pays for itself in the long run.

I get lots of wonders even late game. The key is not getting the tech, it's having GE's. I know a lot of people advocate national epic and globe theatre in a food-rich place. Wrong: you don't have the health to handle so much population, and hapiness can be combatted with hereditiary rule and an archer garrison anyway.

I build my great person farm in a hilly place, using national epic and great library in the early game, and when that goes obselete, ironworks. That's a lot of GE's, and a lot of cool wonders. GP farm in a productive place allows you to build the infrastructure necessary to sustain a GP farm in the first place, which is to say, a lot. In fact, you may need every health and hapiness building in the medieval times to sustain that GP farm anyway.

For me, the culture wonders if going cultural obvi.
space elevator for space win obvi.
UN is useful in all situations as you can usually get the back up plan/ backdoor win, or force awkward resolutions.

Kremlin with whipping is so much fun to use! The overflow made can make armies quite nicly, especially when combined with drafting and cash rushing in smaller cities.

SoL is nice for the free spec, if I have a spare great engineer I will go for it, but otherwise I normally devote my hammers to getting an army upgraded to the era standards.

I get lots of wonders even late game. The key is not getting the tech, it's having GE's. I know a lot of people advocate national epic and globe theatre in a food-rich place. Wrong: you don't have the health to handle so much population, and hapiness can be combatted with hereditiary rule and an archer garrison anyway.

I build my great person farm in a hilly place, using national epic and great library in the early game, and when that goes obselete, ironworks. That's a lot of GE's, and a lot of cool wonders. GP farm in a productive place allows you to build the infrastructure necessary to sustain a GP farm in the first place, which is to say, a lot. In fact, you may need every health and hapiness building in the medieval times to sustain that GP farm anyway.

Health is a minor worry, you are only losing a few food at the worst of times. Whip the buildings in =] and the maintenance on those archers would be a drag, and you want to use better civics like representation or US most of the time.

I think the reason indutrialism doesn't enable coal plants but does enable factories (I think that's right) is because industrialism is based on steam power (mills etc.)and coal plants are elctric power stations. Does assembly line require electricity?

I think the reason indutrialism doesn't enable coal plants but does enable factories (I think that's right) is because industrialism is based on steam power (mills etc.)and coal plants are elctric power stations. Does assembly line require electricity?

no, assembly line comes before electricty. Coal power stations heat water, boil it, it turns into steam, makin turbines turn, they are based on heat as well.

Are you sure electricity isn't a pre-req for assembly line? I know it requires corporation. I think.

Elec and AL are the pre-reqs for industrialism.

Back to the Damn issue, prime case just came up again.

Monte who was the largest civ on his continent, ended up beating me to the Gorges damn (I was second largest) That is HUGE, almost game breaking.

That snowballed him into just beating me again to the space elevator... which then snowballed him into just beating me into the space race victory. So yes, it was a game-breaker. I had that one wrapped up.


I knew I was in trouble when I lost the first wonder race, though tried to pull off a win. Failed...

The Dam is huge if you have 10+ cities,

It looks expensive. However, in late game usually if you have a GE, this is the place to burn it. Half of it is rushed. And if you have an industrious leader, it's also wise to build to leverage your trait advantage. The wonder essentially costs only about 1200 hammers with the industrious trait.

And if you have ironwork built in a river-city (e.g. using those work-shop/water mill boosted super production river cities). The wonder becomes like 800+ hammers only. People think +2 unhealthiness is nothing. To me unhealthiness is usually a bigger issue in late game compared to unhappiness.

Sorry, but how did Monte building the Dam help him to get the Space Elevator? Maybe if you neglected to build coal plants because you expected to get the three gorges dam it would, but otherwise how? How would the three gorges dam make a city produce more hammers than it would with a coal plant?

Monte beat you to the Space Elevator for the same reason that he beat you to the dam - he had outteched and outproduced you. One didn't cause the other - they had the same root cause. In fact if you hadn't gone after the dam you probably could have gotten the space elevator first, which would be much more useful.

Even the space elevator isn't the be-all of the space race. Its a tech race - if its tight the Internet is more useful. If you have good production cities - and you should at that stage of the game - then the last spaceship part gets build 8 turns or so after the last tech you need. The space elevator might cut 2 turns off that (you did build laboratories in your production cities didn't you?). So its worth two turns maximum.

The key to the spaceship race is early computers and lots of laboratories. They help you produce parts and win the research race. Let Monte get the dam. Let him get the space elevator. Get computers for the win.

The Dam is huge if you have 10+ cities,

It looks expensive. However, in late game usually if you have a GE, this is the place to burn it. Half of it is rushed. And if you have an industrious leader, it's also wise to build to leverage your trait advantage. The wonder essentially costs only about 1200 hammers with the industrious trait.

And if you have ironwork built in a river-city (e.g. using those work-shop/water mill boosted super production river cities). The wonder becomes like 800+ hammers only. People think +2 unhealthiness is nothing. To me unhealthiness is usually a bigger issue in late game compared to unhappiness.

I don't usually build factories or coal plants in my commerce cities - they don't need them and so the 3 gorges dam doesn't help them. Remember its a tech race - if it doesn't help you tech faster its not a priority for the space race. And diverting to the dam doesn't help you tech faster. It allows you to at most put one extra citizen to work in your production cities. Chances are that one extra citizen won't save you even a single turn off the last spaceship part.

My production cities can build health improvements so quickly it simply doesn't matter. They don't need to run lots of specialists or even be huge cities - a size 18 production city is perfectly fine. It can run a grocer, granary, hospital and recycling plant if needed. Genetics gives a great late game health burst too.

If you have a small empire, health is easily solved by running Environmentalism. If you have a large one, you usually have enough health resources that it solves itself. Neither is worth diverting from the space race to get +2 health by building a very expensive wonder.

Gee I'm surprised how few votes there are for the Kremlin. While I realise none of the wonders are essential, if I have the opportunity to build the Kremlin it is always a no-brainer. When using a CE, rush buying is a VERY powerful way to build units and buildings, and the Kremlin pays for itself very quickly. It is IMO the most important late game wonder.

The pentagon is also very useful to have if you like late game wars.

In fact if you hadn't gone after the dam you probably could have gotten the space elevator first, which would be much more useful

HD comes before SE.

HD comes before SE.

Isn't plastics one tech before robotics? At least how I usually traverse the tech tree. I'm usually teching at about one tech every 3-5 turns, but I don't think I could build the dam in that kind of time.

3GD?
useless
Pentagon?
useless

I selected the statue of liberty because if you do it well it gives you all you need (science, money, culture or hammers) where you need it.
I also selected the taj, because it sometimes comes at a time where I can build it "safely" (= I'm the only one with the tech, having marble = slow building, no chopping, no whipping, no GE, ne $rushing)
Also the space elevator if you go for space and the UN if you go for diplo, because they have a direct link to the victory.

The 3GD is practically useless for the simple reason that it appears so late. You should have had power plants in your main production centres 100 turns before it even becomes available. There's no real need to have power plants in every city for a space race win, as only a few of your best cities will actually build the components. In the game example you offered it's unlikely it made any difference. Monty would only need a single coal or hydro power plant to have as good a shot at the space elevator as he would with the 3GD, at a fraction of the cost and way earlier.

As to the other wonders, being able to rush buy cheaply is very powerful and the Kremlin is a fairly cheap wonder, so well worth having.

Isn't plastics one tech before robotics? At least how I usually traverse the tech tree. I'm usually teching at about one tech every 3-5 turns, but I don't think I could build the dam in that kind of time.

It takes 3.5 turns for me to build the Damn. It would be foolish not to do this as it takes longer for the next tech to come in.

The Statue of Liberty naturally will have been built ages before this.

The UN is a paradox on Monarch because winning diplo with it is almost impossible to do as the AI has so many modifiers against the human. However, it does have certain EXPLOIT uses, which come in very handy for tech-skipping. You wont win the diplo part, but you can get voted secretary at least, which is all u need to set the wheels in motion.

It takes 3.5 turns for me to build the Damn. It would be foolish not to do this as it takes longer for the next tech to come in.

The Statue of Liberty naturally will have been built ages before this.

The UN is a paradox on Monarch because winning diplo with it is almost impossible to do as the AI has so many modifiers against the human. However, it does have certain EXPLOIT uses, which come in very handy for tech-skipping. You wont win the diplo part, but you can get voted secretary at least, which is all u need to set the wheels in motion.

allow me to rephrase that
YOU won't win diplo. Others do ;)

It takes 3.5 turns for me to build the Damn. It would be foolish not to do this as it takes longer for the next tech to come in.

The Statue of Liberty naturally will have been built ages before this.

The UN is a paradox on Monarch because winning diplo with it is almost impossible to do as the AI has so many modifiers against the human. However, it does have certain EXPLOIT uses, which come in very handy for tech-skipping. You wont win the diplo part, but you can get voted secretary at least, which is all u need to set the wheels in motion.

Assuming the game progresses to that point, getting the UN is pretty much always the best way to get a victory. I always have over 50% of the world's population, but not always 65% of the landmass. Also, your vassals count 100% towards you votes, but only 50% towards your Domination score.

But back to the Dam issue:
I think this one goes back to the 'it depends' category. I have noted in my own games, that if an AI builds this you might as well give up, although that has a lot more to do with the fact that it means they either outteched or outproduced you to get it.

I think you would pretty much have to build this wonder if you were playing an Organized or Industrious Civilization. Industrious makes the Dam much more resonably priced, and with an Organized Civilization, even your non-production centers should have factories.

Yes, industrious is a nice benefit here, and since I suspect the majority of players on Monarch under-rate the trait, they wont be using it, thus pricing themselves in more expensive.

That's a valid point, but surely one would be smart enough to keep some GE's around. Unless you're SURE you can capture the wonders instead.

The times I've won UN victory, I was going to win the Time victory, or domination regardless so I don't quite think giving it weight there is right. Now in the rare case where you just can't pull off the full domination in time to beat another AI's last space ship part, then it can be a nice though cheasy way of exploiting around this. But I can tell you that vassals DON'T always vote for you. I found this out the hard way. Though generally you can count on them.

Now in the rare case where you just can't pull off the full domination in time to beat another AI's last space ship part, then it can be a nice though cheasy way of exploiting around this. But I can tell you that vassals DON'T always vote for you. I found this out the hard way. Though generally you can count on them.
My vassals, even the most furious ones, always voted for me.
You should read SGotM3.
Vanilla and warlords teams went crazy with diplo, and the map wasn't suited for it (crowded, with painful guys)

I believe, Togo was the last vassal who didn't vote for me. Now maybe it was a bug, or part of the leader 'friendly' modifiers at work. I also noticed vassal's voting for you for secretary doesn't ALWAYS correlate with their voting your UN diplo either. In most cases it does though.

It takes 3.5 turns for me to build the Damn. It would be foolish not to do this as it takes longer for the next tech to come in.

The Statue of Liberty naturally will have been built ages before this.

The UN is a paradox on Monarch because winning diplo with it is almost impossible to do as the AI has so many modifiers against the human. However, it does have certain EXPLOIT uses, which come in very handy for tech-skipping. You wont win the diplo part, but you can get voted secretary at least, which is all u need to set the wheels in motion.

If you can really build the dam in 3.5 turns then you would probably be better off building it for 3 turns and then building something else, collecting the cash and upping your research rate. And if your research doesn't need any help then you have probably already won the game and are just going through the motions - the 3GD isn't going to make much difference.

Winning diplo on Monarch is very doable - I've done it several times, even with my population contributing only a small percentage. It is a fun strategy to play - especially with an isolated start.

What are the exploit uses of UN? There are some useful benefits in free trade that are worth pursuing if you are much larger than the opposition, but its not a required tech for any spaceship parts and any exploits you get have to pay back the 3-5 turns you took off your beeline to research mass media before you make a profit.

You can do stuff like get emancipation without even knowing constitution. You can even switch to things like emancipation without going through anarchy.

You can do stuff like get emancipation without even knowing constitution. You can even switch to things like emancipation without going through anarchy.

Its kinda late to be switching to Emancipation isn't it? Either you go for it earlier because you want lots of towns in the late game, or you never go for it at all and run caste system. I can't imagine playing a game where I teched up to Mass Media and didn't at least trade for democracy.

If you want Environmentalism then its a bit more realistic and it can save you a turn anarchy (I presume if you had an empire big enough to warrant several turns anarchy you would prefer state property anyway). But that turn of anarchy doesn't pay back the cost of diverting and building it.