Please Post all Questions & Comments in here :)

Figgures that the turn will start to move quickly now that Memphus is gone! :lol:

I can pick up and play the save when I get home from work… but since I just got here, that's about 9-10 hours from now before I'm actually playing.

Dave – can you pick it up before then?

yeah, I can do it in... 8 hours!

Dave - are you still going to be able to get the save?

I'm home now. If I don't see anything from you in the next hour or so, I'll go ahead and play.

:salute:

Thanks Dave. :thumbsup:

Looks Good :)..P.S. I am back now :)

What do you think about switching to Nationhood once we get Rifling? Drafting 3 rifles/turn is really powerful, and will help prevent us from getting bogged down in war.

We will eventually need to switch from Bureaucracy to Free Speech anyway, and Nationhood fits nicely in between.

Although I have never tried this strategy before it does seem quite intriguing.

Wold we then replace our existing exterior city defenders with riflemen to boost our national defense? Or are they more for the offensive defense in our newly captured cities?

I am all for it, but speaking of the looming war is anyone going to draft up attack plans / routes?

DaveMcW Which of the two Fishing Cities did you imagine this Settler is going to?

The western one is easier to defend from Innovia.

Nice work on the updates Dave! I appreciate the screenshots.

P.S. Hopefully I'll be able to get back to opening the save myself here soon – but for now I can't open the saves. :sad:

I purchased BeyondTheSword, and it modified my vanilla civ. I had it set so I could play it without the CD, but now it wants the CD again - it's been so long since I used it, I've misplaced my copy. Anyway, just haven't had time to mess with it.

If you see Piffle discover Rifling, change civics to Nationalism immediately.

I don't understand the need to switch immediately - could someone explain it?

I get it that we'll get -25% War :mad: and the ability to draft, but what else am I missing?

The ability to draft Riflemen.

Once we get it. It is taking quite awhile for them to get it.

Since we don't have Oil on the continents anywhere, does that mean that we should build a city near the source of oil, or does that mean that Physics is very much needed since we need Uranium to get some ships we need.

Oil is a neccesity at some point becuase air units and tanks require it

With the Game speed normal and us 4 Turns Away from Communism we can save 1 turn of anarchy if we wait until we have both to switch governments (also this will mean we won't have to wait 5 turns for state property)

Unfortunately our empire is so big that switching 2 civics costs 2 turns.

It might delay state property a bit, but remember research will slow down once we leave Bureaucracy too.

You can count on Loco drafting like crazy (and they will soon obtain Rifling from Innovia). We need to out-draft Loco if we want this war to end quickly.

Also I think drafting Riflemen might be more efficient than whipping cannons in the holy city.

Also I think drafting Riflemen might be more efficient than whipping cannons in the holy city.

:salute: Sounds good just let me know :)

I've never really understood why drafting is such a good idea when you're the attacker: dont' they start with only 1/2 the HP than if they had been whipped? I would think that it'd be more important to produce Level 3 cannons than Level 1 cannons - more promotion options available (specifically, Accuracy)

Besides - aren't you only allowed to draft 3 units per turn? How could Loco out-draft us if we're both only allowed the same number of units?

It's more like 90% of the HP, because they lose one promotion. (Though they can easily regain it by winning a battle,)

But compare 100:hammers: for building to 32:food: for drafting.

Woops- where I wrote HP, I really meant XP.

I see the clear advantage to building outright, but 100:hammers: is still only 3 pop in our Globe city, and only 1.5 pop in our Military factory.

I'm not saying we shouldn't do it, I'm just trying to understand why it's worthwhile when you factor in a turn of anarchy, lost research time, the production and commerce loss from no bureaucracy, and the fact that we'll be undercutting some of the advantages of three of our powerhouse cities: The Capital under Bur., Immortal Keep with the Heroic Epic, and Eternal Eye with the Globe and it's unlimited whip.

Factoring in Nationalism, with +25% military production (and a second anarchy) only makes it seem less attractive to whip, as we can produce / whip / chop units at full XP.

Again - I'm not against this plan, I just don't understand the advantages :)

Yeah, the big 3 cities don't gain much. I don't think we will draft in the capital or immortal keep at all.

But our coastal cities have:
- A large unused happiness cap
- No barracks anyway
- Need to come up with emergency defense (and they can still pop rush a second defender if needed!)
- 30 turns of whipping unhappiness that will increase to 60 if we whip 3 units (drafting 3 units will still let all unhappiness expire in 30 turns)

One of the biggest advantages is psychological - Innovia can see that we are totally committed to war, and giving aid to Loco will not stop us.

Not too mention there is the physchological factor on our side as well. Getting out of the Bureacracy crutch is a hard thing to do...By Making the Descion to switch now, chaging to Free Speach (after the war) is easy to do.

Also we have the Advantage that We have Defensive units In all captured Loco Cities (The will be :mad: anyways due to culture at big pops, so drafting down will work) that Ensure our Primary Force can continue to Advance.

Actually we can't draft in captured cities until we have 50% culture.

Okay, great explanations! Thanks :)

Too bad we don't have a couple of Great Artists hanging around to help with that culture stuff ;)

Here's another nice city site. We will get Gold anyway after capturing Delhi and putting down the resistance in Reading, but this site is safer and maybe faster too.

http://img292.imageshack.us/img292/3051/boardwalkiz4.jpg

...and Boardwalk is the perfect name! :clap:

1 tile to the E gets us 2 gold?? But then we lose the Ocean? Although is a Port important for tat Location?

I'd think the value of a port outweighs the long-term prospects of the city. Expediency is the order of the day :D

We'd gain 1 gold, but lose 5 coast tiles that can't get a lighthouse. Plus it has to wait 10 turns before it can work the wheat, leading to slow initial growth.

Sounds good :)

Who / where are we going to build the Settler? (dune?) Capital?

Sunrise Citadel maybe?

Yeah it has pretty solid production but then the frigate tap gets turned off. Since Oil is way off, Having lots of Frigates is key :)

How about whipping one in the Holy City?

Anyone opposed to Switching to Communism right away? :rolleyes:

not opposed - but to clarify, you meant State Property, right?

Correct :)

that's right Comrades! Power to the [politically well connected party insider] People!

How much longer do you want to stay in Nationalism?

Until the Loco war ends? Until we need the culture slider to control draft anger?

Personally I think we have enough troops now. I would say switch out of nationalism the same time we do Monarchy. Which can be in 1 turn,

BTW do we want representation, or do we want Universal Sufferage? (longer than 1 turn)

I don't think Representation gives us that much. We aren't using any specialists, and we actually get more happy faces using military police.

Ok Fair enough :)

Are you suggesting we switch next turn?

How long untill we can't effectivley :deal: units every turn?

Also if we hold off until Assembly Line.... :evil: we can :deal: some infantry....

Anyone else have thoughts?

I guess the bigger question is, what should we hit Innovia with? Masses of drafted Riflemen, or wait for more advanced units?

We can get a very impressive horde of Riflemen if we ignore the long-term production and culture slider consequences. ;)

I think we should switch to Monarchy/Hereditary Rule.
(uhm... what are we running right now?? :blush: )

As Dave noted, Representation doesn't gain us that much, and U.Sufferage really isn't that great if we continue to plow the maximum ammount of gold into science.

Which brings me to... I think we should use our strengths in research to forge ahead in tech before we bring the war to Innovia.
2 Main reasons:
1) Piffle is still bogged down in Aloha land, and could use the support of a larger technological edge
2) It doesn't do us a lot of good to get too far ahead in Innovia land, as we've agreed to split it with Piffle. (unless we've decided that now is our moment to betray Piffle... but I don't think we're quite there yet, personally)

So I'd say go to Monarchy, finish off LOCO, and then full steam ahead on getting a larger tech edge.

We are still in Monarchy.

We are running Nationalism, the chocie here is to switch to Free speech which gives us +100% culture in all cities as well as +2 :commerce: for every town (we have only a few of those right now)

I think Genereal_W is right, once Loco is out of the picture, we should focus on what we are good at research, but they key here is to keep Piffle Happy as we don't want the whole world to turn agaisn't us.

I think a note for Piffle offering them one of out 2 spices to cope with War weariness would be a good start :) (and find out thier new eta on Steam Power)

In any event I think we should wait 1 or 2 more turns then switch to Free Speech, but based on this stay in Monarchy as well.

I just took a look at things, and I see three basic options:

1) Civics to rebuild Locopotamia quickly are Free Speech and Organized Religion (req missionary spamming to Loco)
2) Civics to boost science are Free Religion and Represenation and Mercantilism
3) Bureaucracy and some combination of the above

I did the math for the difference in :science:pt between 1) and 2). We are currently developing 691 :science:, under Merc and FR we'd do 832 (+141 :))

I did not do the math on Bureaucracy... got to get some real work done here ;)

Well although we would go up for Merc, we wouldn't really because our slider would go way down to to insane distance maintenance costs.

Additionally that +1 :food: from the workshop and watermill is too large to ignore. We will most likely keep State Property for the rest of the game.

To Me our next change should be Free Speech as the 2 XP's do make a difference...espeically when the :whip: comes out :)

:hammer2: I forgot that Merc would cancel out StateProperty :blush:

Well, it may still make sense to go back into Bureaucracy for the tech boost.

State Property has got to stay for sure.
Looks like we all agree on keeping the Monarchy also :) Long live The Leader!

I guess the biggest question is really Free Speech vs. Bureaucracy.

Like Memphus noted, we really don't have that many towns... or even that many cottages really.... and with the game drawing nearer the end, I'm just not that excited about Free Speech.

Loco's towns are mostly well developed already, and will quickly expand their culture out to their full fat-cross. So I don't see as big of a benefit from Free Speech there either.

To my mind, it seems like restoring the glory to Epsilon Eridani is the way to go! Heck, if we're running a communist economic model anyway, why not crush free speech and bring back the full Bureaucracy? :)

we really don't have that many towns

But Loco does. ;)

There won't be any culture in Loco's cities until we either build buildings or spread religion.

I'm not advocating a second anarchy or anything, but it's useful to remember that those borders won't pop for quite a while.

Theater 3:culture:
Two Artists 8:culture:

I think the borders will pop quite easily. The benefit of Free Speech is we get the third ring twice as fast.

Yeah I am an advocate for free speech as its power magnifies in the late game (more towns)

Here's another Free Speech addict... ;)

As long as free speech gives us a greater benefit, then I am all for it.

Ok So free Speech it is, other civics will remain status Quo for the time being.

Dave How long until we would need to use the slider for :) to combat the 3 units a turn :deal:?

To me that is the point we should switch.

Well we can't actually switch our civics for another 2 turns as we just switched into communism.

So in 2 turns everyone ok with going to free speech or do we want to draft a little longer?

I don't think we need to draft longer - we've got plenty of cheap rifles for now.

So, yeah - go ahead an switch to Free Speech :)

:bump: Are you able to play Memphus?

Just finished :) It was a long turn. I ran some simulations for battles over two turns, to have any chance we needed to kill 1-2 units this turn :) in any event we lsot 1 cannon but killed 3 of thier units :)

So the update will come in a bit it will take a long time to write :(, i even made a mistake in the turn but it worked out for the best (a misclick wit ha cavalry...killed a Rifle in thier Capital with ~25% odds :eek: )

Anyways How does switching to free speech next turn sound if we can capture thier capital?? (after :deal: of course)

I think that sounds like a good deal.

So well we could switch next turn but alot of our cities have barracks. So all those barracks = +2 :)...if we switch we lsoe that. By my quick look at the save alot of cities will become :mad: for a couple of turns, until the "hell no we won't go" disapears.

Any other thoughts on this?

On Thought it if we capture the capital and Pensylvania, we offer Loco a Cease Fire, and in the time it takes us to march to Bombay the :mad: will be gone??

if they drafted 3 more units the next turn we wouldn't be able to take it. Other options were to bomabard all defense and then just wait till next turn. But running that simulation with the rifle advancing, and 3 more being :deal: also left us with about a 4/10 chance of taking the capital the following turn.

You can only draft 1 unit per city. ;) Plus another 1 pop-rushed. So the odds weren't quite as bad as you thought.

The +2:) barracks shouldn't be an issue, we can afford to use the culture slider with the extra :commerce: free speech gives. Or just ignore the :mad:.

I don't think Loco will accept a ceasefire, unless it involves destroying our reputation if we ever attack them again.

I agree with switching to Free Speech after drafting a Rifle in Loco's Capital.

I'd vote to not bother with a ceasefire. Can't imagine they'd go for it... let's just press on and get the kill over with. :)

I have some suggestions for names of the various water bodies. I would call the ocean between us and Innovia as Sirian Ocean. The waters to the north of us, I would call them Arctic Ocean. The ocean that is in the south, The Southern Ocean, that is between Dune and Piffle lands. I would call the waters between the former Loco lands being called Crazy Sea. Between us and Aloha, they can be called, Welcoming Waters. Between Pifle and Aloha, you could call it the English Sea. The are between Loco, Piffle and Innovia we can call it the Indian Ocean.

I like those names, C_H :)

Hey Memphus - I didn't see any screenshots in the gmail. Maybe you forgot to attach them? :)

I didn't take any this turn :(

sorry ill get mroe for next time.

No worries - there was a line in the turn update that made me think you had posted some. :)

Luckily, I'm able to open the save, so I'm not wholly dependent on screenies :D

& is the only way to get & into the text. :)

Can you send some units to explore the south coast of Loco?

On land or at sea?

I was mainly thinking land.

We capture the last city, which unfortunately had just expanded cultural borders, and thus is in revolt for 3 turns.

That's fortunate, otherwise it would have been razed. ;)

Oh yeah that's right! I completly forgot :|

Wow - that was a HUGE update Memphus! Thanks for all the work you been doing :bowdown:

Being Turnplayer (and Invisible Hand of The Leader) probably seems a thankless task, but I really appreciate all the time you've committed to this. If I ever work out the kinks of a post bts 1.74 installation on a mac, I'll offer to relieve you if you need a break.

But until then, Keep up the Great Work! :cheers:

Thank you :)!! The more informed the team is of the big picture, the better we can crush the world :evil:

@ Memphus: I just read your post in the turn-update thread about how long it takes you to complete the updates. I’m thinking that’s really WAY too much to ask of you.

I think we could probably trim a lot of that reporting out, saving you a ton of time, and not really lose anything critical.

Maybe DaveMcW needs to speak up here on what info he needs to keep offering his insight, but I’m guessing he looks at the save frequently anyway.

Personally – I don’t think we need to see all the worker actions or any of the updates on units that didn’t do anything except sit there.

Don’t get me wrong – your updates are wonderful and to be highly commended – but now that we can all open the save again – I think you can easily leave out the tiny details, and just update us on what our cities are building, what military units you moved, and any international noteworthy event. Those three things and a screenshot or two would be plenty for anyone casually following along. Anyone that wants super detail can just open the save.

Just an idea to save you some time!
Thanks for the great work. :hatsoff:

Hi,

@ Memphus: I just read your post in the turn-update thread about how long it takes you to complete the updates. I’m thinking that’s really WAY too much to ask of you.

I think we could probably trim a lot of that reporting out, saving you a ton of time, and not really lose anything critical. [...]
Personally – I don’t think we need to see all the worker actions or any of the updates on units that didn’t do anything except sit there. [...]
Just an idea to save you some time!
Thanks for the great work. :hatsoff:

Seconded!

-Kylearan

Thirded

:thanx:

Save is up. Update in the morning. Piffle's army is on the move. By my count the can redeclare on Aloha in 1 or 2 turns.
Can I ask where they're "on the move" to?
Is it possible they're headed for us? :scared:
If you don't have time to answer, I'll just try to look at the save tonight when I get home!

Can I ask where they're "on the move" to?
Is it possible they're headed for us? :scared:
If you don't have time to answer, I'll just try to look at the save tonight when I get home!

I got the impression they're heading towards Aloha, though not sure exactly what part. I can't see it being good news if they were headed towards us.

Unless he's into that sort of thing. :mischief:

I have the screenshot and will post in the morning, but my best guess is they are headed towards Aloha. In short if they start coming our way it will take 4 turns to land their galleon's ....

Thanks Gentlemen :hatsoff:

Just had a look at that demographics screen-shot.
Holy Smokes! We are SO far ahead.
Things are looking good for the leader :thumbsup:

If Piffle Decalres war on Aloha and cripples / kills them victory would be in our control :)

Just a comment, really -

I can't believe how productive our nation is! With science at 0% we pull in over 900gpt :woohoo:

We can get Industrialism in 6 with 100% research :D

I'm not sure we need to trade. Which is worth more, Fission + Artillery or a monopoly on oil?
I think Dave raises a very good point here.

Artillery would be nice - but being the only team with oil is a vast advantage, imo.

We're in a precarious position right now, waiting to see if Piffle & Aloha will get their act together and attack us... or stay neutral... or fight each other. Until we know more - it makes a lot of sense to just sit on our advantage.
If Piffle actually comes to us and asks for a trade, we may want to reconsider doing a deal in the name of being friendly allies... but as long as they aren't asking, let's not offer.

Unless Memphus thinks we need artillery to more effectively finish off Innovia?
Or - put another way - how much would gaining artillery shorten the war and/or decrease our casualty rate?

It wouldn't Innovia is cooked IMO. Our main stack will advance east and and rifle trhough them. Thier only play is to abandon 3 cities and make a strong hold in thier new Capital. However they won't...They'll msotl likely try to take back their capital this turn.

So we don't need it :)

ok - cool :thumbsup: - then let's just stick tight, I'd say.

Hi,

I think Dave raises a very good point here.

Artillery would be nice - but being the only team with oil is a vast advantage, imo.
I agree.

-Kylearan

P.S.: Too bad the game has slowed down so much again. :( (...says the lurker who never plays turns... :crazyeye:)

:lol: it's ok - you lurk on a team that actually gets the save played on time. :)