View Full Version : Landsknecht the new Uber unit?


MisterBarca
Jun 24, 2007, 03:42 PM
This unit, which is a replacement for Pikemen, will be even with Macemen (strength 6 plus 100 percent v. melee V. strength 8 plus 50 percent v. melee), while still having the advantage against Knights. In other words, Landsknechts will have no counter units.

Are they the new Praetorians?

Zoolooman
Jun 24, 2007, 03:46 PM
This unit, which is a replacement for Pikemen, will be even with Macemen (strength 6 plus 100 percent v. melee V. strength 8 plus 50 percent v. melee), while still having the advantage against Knights. In other words, Landsknechts will have no counter units.

Are they the new Praetorians?

I spy a man who's never used crossbowmen.

Aramazd
Jun 24, 2007, 03:48 PM
Crossbowman seem like they could defeat a Landsknechts, but I don't know how viable that would be as I rarely use crossbowmen.

Dom Pedro II
Jun 24, 2007, 03:50 PM
Crossbowman seem like they could defeat a Landsknechts, but I don't know how viable that would be as I rarely use crossbowmen.

Looks like you're going to start then, doesn't it? At least when warring against the HRE.

Bongo-Bongo
Jun 24, 2007, 03:50 PM
It has two weakness. Crossbows will have little trouble against them, and as the AI generally uses archery units to defend cities, they will have trouble getting past the Longbowman. Landsknecht are a very strong unit, but they are not the uber unit many think.

Thedrin
Jun 24, 2007, 03:54 PM
A very good unit - based on the available stats I suspect it will be my favourite of the new unique units - but not overpowered. It won't be a good city raider and it is vulnerable in the field to crossbows. It's main advantage is that it performs the field duties of both a pikeman and a crossbowman. This means that the HRE is less likely to lose units performing these duties due to the rock-paper-scissors combat system, e.g. unlike a pikeman, an attacking landsknecht does not have to fear a maceman when attacking a stack. More field victories for less hammers (you don't have to replace as many landsknecht as you do pikemen). The added XP combines well with Charlemagne's imperialistic trait.

MisterBarca
Jun 24, 2007, 04:00 PM
I spy a man who's never used crossbowmen.


LOL, I did forget about Crossbows. I haven't played in a year, so I am getting back into it. Be kind :lol:

Phoenix1595
Jun 24, 2007, 04:00 PM
A very good unit - based on the available stats I suspect it will be my favourite of the new unique units - but not overpowered. It won't be a good city raider and it is vulnerable in the field to crossbows. It's main advantage is that it performs the field duties of both a pikeman and a crossbowman meaning that the HRE is less likely to lose units due to the rock-paper-scissors combat system. More field victories for less hammers (you don't have to replace as many landsknecht as you do pikemen).

A good assessment. We're not looking at the birth of a new praet, but I suspect the landsknecht detractors are simply anti-HRE folks in general. These units will hold their own, but like most UUs, they have an exploitable weakness to keep the game balanced.

Thedrin
Jun 24, 2007, 04:09 PM
Phoenix1595:
but I suspect the landsknecht detractors are simply anti-HRE folks in general.

That it is not a good city raider will make it unpopular in some quarters.

Pangur BŠn
Jun 24, 2007, 04:20 PM
This unit may be good in the field in multiplayer, but against the AI (who likes to cower in his own cities) will serve little function save for the odd stack anti-horse unit and city anti-pillaging unit. In the unlikely event that I were to play the silly HRE civ, I'd prolly never built/upgrade more than a few. Still, it may make a pretty little flavour unit for the German civ when the HRE is modded into oblivion by sensible people.

bonafide11
Jun 24, 2007, 04:22 PM
It's a really good unit, but it's not the best in the game by any means. It's city attack against Longbowmen will be considerably worse than Macemen...

The HRE building, on the other hand, is going to be game breaking!

Thedrin
Jun 24, 2007, 04:28 PM
Bonafide11:
The HRE building, on the other hand, is going to be game breaking!

Sure about that? The Zulu ikhanda and courthouse combination reduce maintenance by 70% at a cost of just 30 extra hammers and the extra 20% is available a fair bit earlier. The IGN preview listing the new unique units and buildings made no mention of increased production costs for any of these unique elements (including the cataphract) so it's not impossible that the Rathaus is more expensive than a normal courthouse.

phantom59
Jun 24, 2007, 05:28 PM
The ideal stack would be landerdontevenwanttotrytospell and knights

Scaramanga
Jun 24, 2007, 05:31 PM
The ideal stack would be landerdontevenwanttotrytospell and knights

So landsknechts and "ridders" perhaps? ;)

EDIT: Personally I was hoping for a Holy Hand Grenadier UU (+500% vs. rabbits).

ohcrapitsnico
Jun 24, 2007, 05:34 PM
So landsknechts and "ridders" perhaps? ;)

Ritters would be real nice, but I don't think Firaxis is going to get that detailed.:)

volfan37132
Jun 24, 2007, 05:41 PM
The landsknecht is by no means invincible. Crossbowmen will eat
them for lunch. Crossbowmen are very under used. The AI almost
never builds them. If the AI would use crossbowmen or axemen
to defend against praetorians instead of longbows then praetorians
would not be so invincible either. See my avatar? :D

GIR
Jun 24, 2007, 06:04 PM
The ideal stack would be landerdontevenwanttotrytospell and knights
lol
So landsknechts and "ridders" perhaps? ;)

EDIT: Personally I was hoping for a Holy Hand Grenadier UU (+500% vs. rabbits).
lol^2

I think the Landsknecht is a nice Unit but it's far away from being a ÜBER Unit.
Uber Units have to be kick ass city riders and the HRE UU is more a defense Unit.

Unfortunately they didn't include Tempelritter (Knights Templar) :sad:

MisterBarca
Jun 24, 2007, 06:08 PM
lol

lol^2

I think the Landsknecht is a nice Unit but it's far away from being a ‹BER Unit.
Uber Units have to be kick ass city riders and the HRE UU is more a defense Unit.

Unfortunately they didn't include Tempelritter (Knights Templar) :sad:


Gir, I haven't played in a year or so, and it seems like I've forgotten a lot of the game mechanics. But the new expansion is inspiring me to play the game again.

marioflag
Jun 24, 2007, 06:23 PM
Are they the new Praetorians?

No.They are powerful though.Pretorians have as counter until Macemen only Axeman which is even less powerful than Praetorian in melee combat.
Landschnekt are really good because you can use them both as Pikeman and Maceman so you have 2 units in 1 but they are owned by Crossbowman and Maceman is as strong as Landschnekt in melee combat.
So is it the best new UU?Yes
Is it as powerful as Praetorians?Not even remotely

Thedrin
Jun 24, 2007, 06:36 PM
Maceman is as strong as Landschnekt in melee combat.

Landsknecht is stronger than a maceman in combat. If the landsknecht attacks then the relative strengths will be 6 and 5.33 in favour of the landsknecht. If the maceman attacks the relative strengths will be 9 and 8 in favour of the landsknecht. Against all contemporary units except the crossbow - against pikemen, macemen, longbowmen, and knights - the landsknecht is better than the maceman. The maceman's two advantages are that it dies less easily against crossbows (though is still inferior to crossbows) and makes for a much better city raider.

marioflag
Jun 24, 2007, 06:44 PM
Landsknecht is stronger than a maceman in combat. If the landsknecht attacks then the relative strengths will be 6 and 5.33 in favour of the landsknecht. If the maceman attacks the relative strengths will be 9 and 8 in favour of the landsknecht. Against all contemporary units except the crossbow - against pikemen, macemen, longbowmen, and knights - the landsknecht is better than the maceman. The maceman's two advantages are that it dies less easily against crossbows (though is still inferior to crossbows) and makes for a much better city raider.

you are right.
i made 6 +100% vs melee =12 :strength: Landschnekt
8 +50% vs melee=12 :strength: Maceman

but it is Ladschnekt 6+100%-50% vs 8 Maceman

Innawerkz
Jun 24, 2007, 07:00 PM
Not building Crossbowmen out of 'habit' doesn't seem wise. If you start next to Rome or the Aztecs you build axes for your borders. If you play against Egypt, Persia or Mongolia - you use Spearmen on patrol. Against the HRE, Crossbowmen become a higher priority - just like when I am playing against the Vikings or Japanese.

There are also a lot of assumptions that the AI will continue the habits of old. Even Blake's AI - pre-Firaxis - had the sense to emphasize Axemen if it started next to Rome. I'm sure with more dedication, assistance and - of course - funding, I'm confident the AI will make better use of a lot of units it didn't employ before.

That said: I love the new Landschnekt. Should make patrolling borders & pillage wars a lot easier to gear up for.

MisterBarca
Jun 24, 2007, 07:01 PM
you are right.
i made 6 +100% vs melee =12 :strength: Landschnekt
8 +50% vs melee=12 :strength: Maceman

but it is Ladschnekt 6+100%-50% vs 8 Maceman

Can you explain how this works?

I thought your original formula was the right one?

Thedrin
Jun 24, 2007, 07:09 PM
Landsknecht: 6 strenght plus 100% bonus against melee
Maceman: 8 strength plus 50% bonus against melee

Maceman attacking a landsknecht:

100 - 50 = 50
Landsknecht strength = 6*1.5 = 9
Maceman strength is unchanged at 8

Landsknecht attacking a maceman:

100 - 50 = 50
Maceman strength = 8/1.5 = 5.33
Landsknecht strength is unchanged at 6.

In general you find the difference between the two units bonuses and apply that to the defending unit. There are some exceptions. A unit's combat promotions are always used to increase its strength. Water penalties - attacking from a boat or across a river - are applied in a different way also.

MisterBarca
Jun 24, 2007, 07:12 PM
Landsknecht: 6 strenght plus 100% bonus against melee
Maceman: 8 strength plus 50% bonus against melee

Maceman attacking a landsknecht:

100 - 50 = 50
Landsknecht strength = 6*1.5 = 9
Maceman strength is unchanged at 8

Landsknecht attacking a maceman:

100 - 50 = 50
Maceman strength = 8/1.5 = 5.33
Landsknecht strength is unchanged at 6.

In general you find the difference between the two units bonuses and apply that to the defending unit. There are some exceptions. Combat promotions are always used to increase strength. Water penalties - attacking from a boat or across a river - are applied in a different way also.

Ah, thanks so much. I didn't realize the right formula was:

"In general you find the difference between the two units bonuses and apply that to the defending unit."

GIR
Jun 24, 2007, 07:12 PM
more info about combat:

(Civilization IV: War Academy)
http://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/strategy/combat_explained.php
http://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/strategy/simple_combat.php

bonafide11
Jun 24, 2007, 11:05 PM
Against all contemporary units except the crossbow - against pikemen, macemen, longbowmen, and knights - the landsknecht is better than the maceman.

Perhaps I am overlooking something, but can you explain to me how the Landsknecht is any better against Longbowmen than Macemen? I can't think of any bonuses in favor of the Landsknecht over the Longbowman, and it is 6 vs. 6 strength instead of 8 vs. 6 strength. Am I missing something...? :confused:

Badesumofu
Jun 24, 2007, 11:15 PM
Am I missing something...?

You're not, a Mace is better against any archery unit. The Landsknecht has overwhelming bonuses vs. melee and mounted, but nothing against archery units. The Mace's superior strength makes it better against archery units.

A defending Mace will have an edge against a Landsknecht if it's in a forest, or has some other kind of defensive bonus to counter the 50% head-start.

winddbourne
Jun 24, 2007, 11:39 PM
No.They are powerful though.Pretorians have as counter until Macemen only Axeman which is even less powerful than Praetorian in melee combat.


Actually we're going to have to rethink the pretorian's uber status after BTS. The new unique Axemen littering the playing field, not to mention the Landschnekt and several other units will give the Pretorian some decent competition during it's time of power.

I'd have to run the numbers on each unit but I wouldn't be surprised if a good number of them could stand up to a pretorian on equal ground. The Horse Archer UU's might also stand being looked at again with the changes to their base unit, as might the new Babylonian Bowman with it's 50% bonus vs melee.

I think the bowman in a non hill city should equal out to a six, which would be defending against a pretorian attacking the city at 6.6. Fairly even odds. Of course promotions could tilt that balance either way. Of course if you build your cities on hills . . . then the pretorian is toast.

That is of course only my opinion. It's based on a very quick estimate . . . but if I'm right the pretorian is going to be facing a number of civilizations that can and will counter it. Not just Malinese Skirmishers who normally sit in their cities and wait to be over-run, but actual agressive forward attacking units.

More defenders who can defeat the Pretorian, plus active agressors who can easilly take them out will make it merely a good unit, instead of an uber one. And the best thing about it is . . . The designers did it without changing the Pretorian one bit.

Now if we can just get our Cossacks and Redocoats back. lol

Martinus
Jun 25, 2007, 01:06 AM
Nm, please delete.

Thedrin
Jun 25, 2007, 01:15 AM
Bonafide11:
Perhaps I am overlooking something, but can you explain to me how the Landsknecht is any better against Longbowmen than Macemen? I can't think of any bonuses in favor of the Landsknecht over the Longbowman, and it is 6 vs. 6 strength instead of 8 vs. 6 strength. Am I missing something...?

I got that wrong.

WindBourne:
Actually we're going to have to rethink the pretorian's uber status after BTS. The new unique Axemen littering the playing field, not to mention the Landschnekt and several other units will give the Pretorian some decent competition during it's time of power.

I'd have to run the numbers on each unit but I wouldn't be surprised if a good number of them could stand up to a pretorian on equal ground. The Horse Archer UU's might also stand being looked at again with the changes to their base unit, as might the new Babylonian Bowman with it's 50% bonus vs melee.

I think the bowman in a non hill city should equal out to a six, which would be defending against a pretorian attacking the city at 6.6. Fairly even odds. Of course promotions could tilt that balance either way. Of course if you build your cities on hills . . . then the pretorian is toast.

That is of course only my opinion. It's based on a very quick estimate . . . but if I'm right the pretorian is going to be facing a number of civilizations that can and will counter it. Not just Malinese Skirmishers who normally sit in their cities and wait to be over-run, but actual agressive forward attacking units.

More defenders who can defeat the Pretorian, plus active agressors who can easilly take them out will make it merely a good unit, instead of an uber one. And the best thing about it is . . . The designers did it without changing the Pretorian one bit.

Now if we can just get our Cossacks and Redocoats back. lol

Reevaluate the praetorian based on other unique units? No. The majority of existing civs' ability to handle the praetorian is unaffected by the presence of new unique units.

As an aside:
The landsknecht is predated by the crossbow which could already beat praetorians.
The basic vulture is no better against a praetorian than an ordinary axe.
The bowman will be no match for the praetorian outside of cities (and I don't really consider the praetorians city raiding ability to be too powerful).
The only change to horse archers that would affect its combat with praetoreans are the removal of the 10% city raiding penalty.

But the dog soldier does have roughly equal chances against it.

bonafide11
Jun 25, 2007, 01:18 AM
An early dog soldier + archer rush could actually prove to be rather powerful in the early game.

Angst
Jun 25, 2007, 08:51 AM
I think the Sumerian unit will be an incredibly powerful Axe rush

Nicopol
Jun 28, 2007, 07:50 AM
the Landschkect is lame. its a bad offensive unit.