I like the fact that the wolves and bears and sometimes lions make parts of the map very difficult to explore, let alone settle -- I definitely would not want to go back to to the versions where exploration is easy with a lone hunter.

However... in my opinion, the price is that game after game, I am under no pressure from barbs in my own territory, and for me that feels like a step backward. Vanilla civ made it necessary to get to axemen, just to securely defend what you already had settled, and FFH improved on this. Lizardmen put very intelligent pressure on you, and orcs, although not as strong, would cheefully remove all your imrovements if you lacked offensive firepower to take them out. And these suckers came in large enough numbers that you could very possibly lose a unit before it had healed. The goblins tended to just be experience-on-the-hoof for your units, including adepts, but the others were an important part of the game.

Now, invading barbs are a rarity, and, to make it worse, animals that end up within your cultural borders go totally passive. Your worker can sit right next to an animal, and as long as he is within his border, the bear or wolf seems to have no appetite at all.

This lack of barb pressure not only removes drama from the first half of the game, but it also takes away a significant AI advantage. At any level higher than noble, the AI has an advantage against barbs, and, as best as I can tell, the game is programmed decently to have the AI react pretty well to barb incursions -- so this is one place the AI CAN compete with a human.

Just my opinions. :)

Have you tried snarko's options mod yet? One of his options, Animal frenzy, helps solve the problem by making barbs and animals attack other animals. That reduces the amount of animals, and give the barbs some free xp

I think a lot has to do with the size of the map you are playing and the number of AI civs you select. I always choose a huge map and usually the default number of AI civs - 9. I tried a game with 16 civs on the huge map and, even, with the raging barb selection, there wasn't much of a barb challenge as the map filled quickly and the barbs were thinned out in short order.

I see what you are saying about the animals affecting play. I have found the raging barbs are certainly not as bad as they were previously. However, I have also seen that the AI civs will often take out animals, dens, etc. paving the way for more 'real' barbs. Again, it depends on how much open space you have available.

On you last point, I'm not sure I agree. I have found that the AI civs are not usually prepared for raging barbs. They expand first, defend second. Now, if they are lucky and the barbs don't target them early on, they can jump out to a big lead in the points race.

However, if the barbs target them, their civs will be destroyed in short order. One Warrior defender per city just won't cut it.

In the last few games I have played (Huge Fantasy map, Prince, Marathon) two AI civs have been eliminated in the early going. This, IMO, makes the game a little tougher as the huge map with only a total of 8 civs takes a lot longer time to fill up. I am in the year 1,000 now and only about 50% of the map is settled. This leaves a lot of room for the barbs to spawn.

But, yes, back to your original point, there are still quite a few bears and elephants on the map too!

One more thing that I have found is when you have a lot of open spaces like that, barb cities pop up like weeds with connecting roads. If you try to go and take them out, the counter moves up and more pop up. I find managing the barb city explosion about as challenging as the 'raging' barbs themselves. The AI civs, by the way, make the counter move along quickly as they always go out to raze barb cities and the new ones that take their place.

In a Marathon game, IMO, the counter moves too quickly for this reason.

My main comment is that Giant Spiders create Baby Spiders too frequently - you can effectively get an unlimited size army cheaply once you have Hunting and Animal Handling. Even worse, they're useful as military units until you get tier III offensive units, and they are useful scouts beyond that time period. Frankly, until I have a significant number of Tier III offensive units, I get far more baby Spiders than I can use.

I'd reduce the automatic Baby Spider generation to a chance of Baby Spider generation (doubled for the Svartalfar), at least for player-owned Giant Spiders.

I guess that my other comment is that a way to reduce over-population of animals would be to have random animals start entering cultural borders and (potentially) attacking cities (instead of, or in addition to, a hard cap).

I too, have found that the maps sometimes fill up with animals (particularly wolves), meaning that the barbs have no place to spawn. And by fill up, I mean an average of 2-3 animals per square. That makes for a quiet game inside the borders, but some serious hassle when trying to found a new city. Other times, you can hardly find one animal to capture, and you get the full raging barbarians that you ordered.

While that diversity is good and makes for more replayability, I think the more extreme cases where you have 4 wolf packs on each square outside your borders are too much. Perhaps something could be done about reducing their numbers ?

In 0.23 wolves will stops spawning if there is less than 10 unowned tiled per wolf already on that continent (increased from per 5 tiles in 0.22h). Lions and Bears will stop spawning if there is less that 6 unowned tiles per animal on that continent (increased from 3).

Also the barbarian spawn rate will no longer be effected by the amount of animals on that continent. Previously barbarians considered how many barian units were on that continent (including animals) before checking to see if they would create more. Since there were so many animals barbarians were spawning less and less. Now the two values are independant.

Im not sure what to do with the Giant Spiders, I'll have to think about it.

My current Emperor game is on a huge highlands map with 16 total civs. Two civs got knocked out early (I assume from skeletons), but the rest are still around at turn 550.

Raging barbs is on - they are not overwhelming but they are definitely everywhere. Animals have not been excessive in my opinion - there are an awful lot of them, especially bear dens in the cold south, but there is still a lot of unsettled space even now.

The main thing I noticed in this game was that the first 100 turns (approximately) had very slow inter-turns. I literally used the time to do some of the things I've been neglecting lately (like cleaning up the house). However, now the time delay is back to where I expect it to be.

As far as the AC is concerned, mine is currently at 36. I don't feel this is too much, especially since the AV has been around for about 100 turns.

I certainly welcome the splitting of animal and barb units. This should make raging barbs more raging.

As for the spiders, perhaps the babies should not be automatically given to the owner of the spider (unless Svartalfar). I'm not sure how to make it so that capturing them isn't merely a minor inconvenience, though.

Im not sure what to do with the Giant Spiders, I'll have to think about it.
What about a mechanic similar to the werewolves? (Chance to spawn a new baby spider reduced for each spider/baby spider already in the world.) It could work for everyone, including barbarians.

Im not sure what to do with the Giant Spiders, I'll have to think about it.How about giving thee Giant Spiders a temporary promotion when they spawn a Baby Spider and while they have this promotion they can't spawn new Baby Spiders?

This 'blocker' promotion could then be cleared when one or more conditions was met. Possible conditions could be:
- Giant Spider must be at a certain % of health
- all Giant Spiders get promotion cleared on a global scale every x turns
- small random chance every turn for the promotion to clear

Speaking of Baby Spiders ... shouldn't they be able to upgrade to a Giant Spider themselves once they have 'eaten' enough? ;)

Speaking of Baby Spiders ... shouldn't they be able to upgrade to a Giant Spider themselves once they have 'eaten' enough? ;)

You are aware, I assume, that they do automatically upgrade. It takes an average of roughly 33 turns while they are unwounded.

You are aware, I assume, that they do automatically upgrade. It takes an average of roughly 33 turns while they are unwounded.

Is it really that many turns? In my Marathon game it seems like baby spiders were becoming giant spiders faster.

Yes, you are right. Building up a spider army is an interesting exploit you can use. As Hidden Nationality they can go in, take out weak AI city defenders, and wait for the real barbs to come in and capture/raze the cities.

It is another of those games within in a game, and probably needs to be adjusted, although it was fun while it lasted. :)

My current Emperor game is on a huge highlands map with 16 total civs. Two civs got knocked out early (I assume from skeletons), but the rest are still around at turn 550.

Raging barbs is on - they are not overwhelming but they are definitely everywhere. Animals have not been excessive in my opinion - there are an awful lot of them, especially bear dens in the cold south, but there is still a lot of unsettled space even now.

The main thing I noticed in this game was that the first 100 turns (approximately) had very slow inter-turns. I literally used the time to do some of the things I've been neglecting lately (like cleaning up the house). However, now the time delay is back to where I expect it to be.

As far as the AC is concerned, mine is currently at 36. I don't feel this is too much, especially since the AV has been around for about 100 turns.

I certainly welcome the splitting of animal and barb units. This should make raging barbs more raging.

As for the spiders, perhaps the babies should not be automatically given to the owner of the spider (unless Svartalfar). I'm not sure how to make it so that capturing them isn't merely a minor inconvenience, though.

V, you didn't say, but I seem to recall you saying you play your games at Marathon speed? Correct on this one.

If the counter is at 36 on turn 550 I think it is too fast. Remember you still have about 1,300 turns left in the game!

I would like to hear what you think about 2 things as we play very similar games/maps:

1. When the Horsemen appear in your Marathon games, do you have anything more that Level II units with maybe the start of Level III and maybe a hero? Do you have Courage to even be able to attack the Horsemen?

I find it is really tough to get to those Rangers, etc. that would at least do some damage to the Horsemen and then kill them. Also, if you don't have Spirit Mana/Courage, you are really dead.

2. How do you handle the popping up of barb cities on the map, especially in those open spaces, or near your borders?

If you raze the barb cities, like the AI does, the counter will increase, IMO, too fast. If you let them stand, you will find the Horsemen appear in those cities. I think a Horseman has to spawn in a barb city and will only spawn elsewhere if there are no barb cities.

Anyway, again, having the 16 starting civs vs. the 10 I play with changes the dynamic a bit, but I am interested in hearing your opinion on the 2 items above. Thanks.

Is their anyway the giant spiders are only invisible in jungles and forests? because it makes no sense for a giant spider to be invisible on grasslands plains and deserts because with their size anyone could see them

Is their anyway the giant spiders are only invisible in jungles and forests? because it makes no sense for a giant spider to be invisible on grasslands plains and deserts because with their size anyone could see them
This is an interpretation issue, such as the one Sarasin and I briefly discussed on the bug thread. Are they invisible because they hide in trees? That's my assumption. However, perhaps they can adapt to any environment, digging into the sand, creating pit traps in the open plains...

Personally, I like your suggestion. If spider invisibility is replaced with Forest Stealth, it would make them less powerful. The problem is convincing the AI to keep Spiders in the forest (currently they only move when bumped by a friendly unit or culture or when attacking an adjacent unit, I believe).

Well, that makes sense - they'd hang around in forests unless forced out most of the time.

V, you didn't say, but I seem to recall you saying you play your games at Marathon speed? Correct on this one.
Sorry, yeah I forgot to mention game speed, for some reason. Yes, I play on marathon.

If the counter is at 36 on turn 550 I think it is too fast. Remember you still have about 1,300 turns left in the game!
It's now turn 600-ish, and I recently got blighted. The Calabim (who are Ashen Veil) are getting their butts kicked by the Elohim (who are Octopus Overlord), so I'm not sure how much more AV will be manipulating the AC. The count still seems fine to me.

1. When the Horsemen appear in your Marathon games, do you have anything more that Level II units with maybe the start of Level III and maybe a hero? Do you have Courage to even be able to attack the Horsemen?
So far, I've never had any trouble with the Horsemen in my games. However, keep in mind that I've played very few Fire games. With my preferred speed being Marathon, and with a very busy schedule up until recently, I just haven't as much time for FfH.

My military is currently quite comfortable with it's iron-weaponed dwarven warriors (many of whom are high level thanks to the barbarians). By the time the horsemen appear, if ever, I'm sure I should do fine. If not, then I welcome the challenge, as they have yet to be more than a passing concern for me.

And, no, I don't have Courage in my current game. I don't plan to get it, either. My mana nodes are going to be reserved for 1 enchantment and all Earth (I'm playing with the mine-resource popping this game - so far I have quite a few gems that more than make up for the lack of cottages).

2. How do you handle the popping up of barb cities on the map, especially in those open spaces, or near your borders?

In my current game, which still is only about 60% settled (I can't wait for Hyborem to show up, if he does at all), there have been a lot of barb cities, yes. The barbs have also been on a recent rampage, destroying a bunch of AI cities somehow (must be the lizardmen that are spawning now). My civ, the Khazad, haven't attacked a single city yet, and no barb cities have popped up near my borders. As such, I don't have a comparable problem to what you describe.

Anyway, again, having the 16 starting civs vs. the 10 I play with changes the dynamic a bit, but I am interested in hearing your opinion on the 2 items above. Thanks.
Yeah, in general I feel the extra civs reduce the effectiveness of barbarians. However, on full land maps, like Fantasy Realm or Highlands, there is still an awful lot of space. And it is normal for two to five civs to be knocked out in the first 150 turns, leaving big gaping holes between settled lands.

You are aware, I assume, that they do automatically upgrade. It takes an average of roughly 33 turns while they are unwounded.Ah thanks, I wasn't aware of this. I have never had that happen - all animals tend to go extinct fast in my games (never seen Grand Menagerie completed either).

However it seems to me that a better way to cause them to upgrade, would be to link the upgrade with xp they gained.

Just when you think there are too many animals and not enough barbs, you run into a game like the one I am playing now. Ethne the White, Huge Fantasy map, Epic, raging barbs/aggAI.

By turn 200 in this game, except for a few wandering jumbos, the animals have been wiped off the map. One reason I noted because it was happening next to my borders was that the Amurites were systematically killing off the animals and taking out the dens. Well, this sucked for 2 reasons:

1. By the time I got Animal Husbandry/Hunters, the animals were gone so I was unable to subdue ANY.

2. No animals = beaucoup barbs.

On #2, I counted 28 barbs (goblins, spearmen, and lizardmen) within my two cities' borders. It was a real raging barb game and then some.

The barbs came for a good 300 turns. It was pretty relentless, but not too difficult to handle because I lucked out and got Priesthood in a hurry and was able to build many Monk defenders.

The map is starting to fill now a bit, but one of my borders is wide open and I am seeing mini-stacks of barbs appear every few turns. Now axemen and worg riders have joined the mix.

So, if you feel there are too many animals, take out as many as you can, especially the dens, and hope the AI does too.

Sorry, yeah I forgot to mention game speed, for some reason. Yes, I play on marathon.


It's now turn 600-ish, and I recently got blighted. The Calabim (who are Ashen Veil) are getting their butts kicked by the Elohim (who are Octopus Overlord), so I'm not sure how much more AV will be manipulating the AC. The count still seems fine to me.


So far, I've never had any trouble with the Horsemen in my games. However, keep in mind that I've played very few Fire games. With my preferred speed being Marathon, and with a very busy schedule up until recently, I just haven't as much time for FfH.

My military is currently quite comfortable with it's iron-weaponed dwarven warriors (many of whom are high level thanks to the barbarians). By the time the horsemen appear, if ever, I'm sure I should do fine. If not, then I welcome the challenge, as they have yet to be more than a passing concern for me.

And, no, I don't have Courage in my current game. I don't plan to get it, either. My mana nodes are going to be reserved for 1 enchantment and all Earth (I'm playing with the mine-resource popping this game - so far I have quite a few gems that more than make up for the lack of cottages).



In my current game, which still is only about 60% settled (I can't wait for Hyborem to show up, if he does at all), there have been a lot of barb cities, yes. The barbs have also been on a recent rampage, destroying a bunch of AI cities somehow (must be the lizardmen that are spawning now). My civ, the Khazad, haven't attacked a single city yet, and no barb cities have popped up near my borders. As such, I don't have a comparable problem to what you describe.


Yeah, in general I feel the extra civs reduce the effectiveness of barbarians. However, on full land maps, like Fantasy Realm or Highlands, there is still an awful lot of space. And it is normal for two to five civs to be knocked out in the first 150 turns, leaving big gaping holes between settled lands.


Thanks for taking the time to respond.

Do you really think Dwarven Warriors will be able to defend against those powerful Horsemen like Buboes et al?

I remember my first game I had Axemen and thought I was in decent shape to defend. However, I had no Spirit Mana and, thus, no Courage for my troops. None of them would even attack the First Horsemen. He killed at will and I had nothing with enough Courage to counter the Fear he brought with him.

So, it is not just a matter of having strong troops. They need the Courage too or the battle will not be joined usually.

Yes, I guess all the games can be different, but I have noticed in every Marathon game I play that the counter moves too quickly IMO. I really think the culprit is the counter increasing whenever a barb city goes down. If it took, say, three barb cities razed to move the counter 1, it would be a lot better. Keep it at 1 per other cities, but either reduce the counter movement forward for razed barb cities, or slow down the rate at which they can pop up on the map.

I think this would make Marathon game more interesting and you could prepare better for a counter that moves too quickly now.

Is it really that many turns? In my Marathon game it seems like baby spiders were becoming giant spiders faster.

I was oversimplifying. The chance/turn is 3%. If, say, you had 10 baby spiders (all unwounded) on the same turn, on average 5 of them should be Giant Spiders 23 turns later. On the other hand, 1 (on average) would be a Giant Spider 4 turns later.

Do you really think Dwarven Warriors will be able to defend against those powerful Horsemen like Buboes et al?
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So, it is not just a matter of having strong troops. They need the Courage too or the battle will not be joined usually.
I realise that. I look forward to the horsemen kicking my arse, if they can. But I still don't think it'll happen. By the time they appear, I'll have stronger troops and a very robust production level with my well-established cities and Overflowing dwarven vaults (not to mention forges and fully-utilized dwarven smithies).

I really think the culprit is the counter increasing whenever a barb city goes down. If it took, say, three barb cities razed to move the counter 1, it would be a lot better. Keep it at 1 per other cities, but either reduce the counter movement forward for razed barb cities, or slow down the rate at which they can pop up on the map.

I think this would make Marathon game more interesting and you could prepare better for a counter that moves too quickly now.
Actually, I think the problem is that every destroyed city has a base AC change of 1 + <city size>/4 (this is off memory since the Wiki is currently unavailable). The 1 should be removed, because a newly formed city (whether spawned for barbarians or just settled by a civ) gives that minimum of 1 AC change. If it was simply <city size>/4, then these new 'cities' wouldn't be much of a worry for the counter. Since most spawned barb cities are at 1 when they are razed, this would help with the problem you are experiencing.

By the way, I just wanted to celebrate publicly the AI-induced summoning of Hyborem. Yay! Unfortunately, despite much better land being freely available, he spawned in the middle of tundra so his growth will probably be slow. Boo!

AC counter = 55 at turn 700-ish (the Luichirp were just handed their arses by the Clan => good civ destroyed plus several razed cities)

He doesn't use food to grow, he sacrifices manes. So, tundra won't hold him back.

Go AI!! We are all cheering for you!

He doesn't use food to grow, he sacrifices manes. So, tundra won't hold him back.
Sweet!

Interestingly, he also spawned next to the uber barb city that houses Acheron. Since they are allied and Hyborem won't be surfacing to the top of the points ladder anytime soon, I guess they won't be confronting each other, but that would be a neat showdown :)

I realise that. I look forward to the horsemen kicking my arse, if they can. But I still don't think it'll happen. By the time they appear, I'll have stronger troops and a very robust production level with my well-established cities and Overflowing dwarven vaults (not to mention forges and fully-utilized dwarven smithies).




OK, I'm sure you know what you are doing, but I'm not sure you get it about your units being unable to engage the Four Horsemen at all without Courage to counteract the Fear they have. If the Horsemen try to attack your units, they will kill anything, but take damage. The problem is even then I don't believe you will be able to attack and kill the damaged Horseman without Courage.

Another problem is that one (or more) of the Horsemen goes about destroying as many improvements as possible and polluting the land. Again, you won't be able to stop him as you cannot attack.

I think if your unit is a Hero or very experienced you might be able to attack, but the problem I found is they didn't stand a chance against the Horseman. Only a very buffed Basium was able to do that in my experience. The trick is to have some cannon fodder (with Courage, of course) to whittle him down and then kill him with your hero/strong unit.

Anyway, I am anxious to hear about your experience when they show up. In the mean time, please try to get some Spirit Mana, OK?;)

I get plenty of Lions and Bears, plus way too many Wolves. But the others are quite scarce, except for the odd roving Spider or Elephant. Do all of the "menagerie" animals have lairs?

OK, I'm sure you know what you are doing, but I'm not sure you get it about your units being unable to engage the Four Horsemen at all without Courage to counteract the Fear they have. If the Horsemen try to attack your units, they will kill anything, but take damage. The problem is even then I don't believe you will be able to attack and kill the damaged Horseman without Courage.


The wiki isn't up, so I'll point to the code:

if (pDefender->isHasPromotion((PromotionTypes)GC.getInfoTypeForSt ring("PROMOTION_FEAR")))
{
if (isHasPromotion((PromotionTypes)GC.getInfoTypeForS tring("PROMOTION_COURAGE")) == false && isAlive())
{
int iDef = pDefender->baseCombatStr(false) * 5;
int iAtt = baseCombatStr(true) * 5;
int iChance = 50 - iDef + iAtt;
if (iChance <= 20)
{
iChance = 20;
}
if (GC.getGameINLINE().getSorenRandNum(100, "Fear") <= iChance)
{
setMadeAttack(true);
szBuffer = gDLL->getText("TXT_KEY_MESSAGE_IM_AFEARED", getNameKey());
gDLL->getInterfaceIFace()->addMessage(((PlayerTypes)getOwner()), false, GC.getDefineINT("EVENT_MESSAGE_TIME"), szBuffer, "AS2D_DISCOVERBONUS", MESSAGE_TYPE_MAJOR_EVENT, "Art/Interface/Buttons/Promotions/Fear.dds", (ColorTypes)GC.getInfoTypeForString("COLOR_RED"), getX_INLINE(), getY_INLINE(), true, true);
bFinish = true;
}
}
}


The short version is that Courage (or one that isn't alive, such as an Angel, Demon, Undead, or Golem) guarantees that ability to attack a unit with fear, but other units have a 51% -5% *(the unit with fear's defensive strength) + 5% * (the potentially attacking unit's offensive strength), with a minimum of 21% chance of successfully attacking.

So with 5x the number of (normally) required units, you should be able to take one out.

Thanks for that clarification. Isn't it true that more experienced units have a better shot at overcoming the Fear? For example, I sent a hero, I think it was Kithra Kyriel, to attack one of the Horsemen. However, with little experience, and no Courage, even Kithra could not attack.

My point in previous posts about the counter moving too quickly in Marathon games and the Horsemen showing up too quickly before you can even get Tier 3 units, is underscored by what you wrote.

Think about how many Axemen or Hunters without Courage you would need to kill a Horseman.;)

I get plenty of Lions and Bears, plus way too many Wolves. But the others are quite scarce, except for the odd roving Spider or Elephant. Do all of the "menagerie" animals have lairs?No, only Lions and Bears have lairs (and wolves spawn from Wolf Packs).

Solution will probably require some sort of counter for each animal type to both ensure they don't grow out of control when counter is too high, and to force some spawns after normal barbarians have started to spawn when counter is too low.

Thanks for that clarification. Isn't it true that more experienced units have a better shot at overcoming the Fear? For example, I sent a hero, I think it was Kithra Kyriel, to attack one of the Horsemen. However, with little experience, and no Courage, even Kithra could not attack.
No. Levels help with resisting spells (in many cases), but not effects from promotions (like Fear). However, any offensive-strength affecting promotion would help (like Heroic Strength I).

My point in previous posts about the counter moving too quickly in Marathon games and the Horsemen showing up too quickly before you can even get Tier 3 units, is underscored by what you wrote.

Think about how many Axemen or Hunters without Courage you would need to kill a Horseman.;)
I'd tend to use Skeletons if I was worried about this - Death and Poison resistance, immunity to Fear, Summonable via Adepts with Death I, they last, and they're expendable. Note that that doesn't mean that the Armageddon counter shouldn't be scaled by game speed - it probably should. I'm merely pointing out a solution in the interim.

No. Levels help with resisting spells (in many cases), but not effects from promotions (like Fear). However, any offensive-strength affecting promotion would help (like Heroic Strength I).


I'd tend to use Skeletons if I was worried about this - Death and Poison resistance, immunity to Fear, Summonable via Adepts with Death I, they last, and they're expendable. Note that that doesn't mean that the Armageddon counter shouldn't be scaled by game speed - it probably should. I'm merely pointing out a solution in the interim.

Yes, adepts is about all you would have and hopefully you would get Necromancy to be able to get Death mana to summon the skeletons. But, you might as well go for Divination and get Spirit mana and Courage. My problem in some games was that I just didn't have any available mana nodes and my starting mana didn't help.

Wow, I wonder how many skeletons it would take to take down a Horseman?;)

Since animals and "barbarians" are being sepearted in function (and through a mod, barbs can actually hunt animals) it leads to some new interesting early and mid game fun.

I have some ideas on this. Specifically, I think it'd be awesome to see the "non-civ" units divided even more.

Barbarians (a rival non-controlled civ), Animals (as they are now), Beasts (animals that adhere to specific terrain/climate), and finally "Monsters" (Your garden variety "I dont know where this unit goes" unit.

Barbarians would function as they do now. Getting free units, building cities, constantly razing/capturing your cities and ravaging your country side. As per normal wonderful barbarian behaviors.

Animals would function as they do now. Spawning, harassing your explorers and expansion plans. Also capturable to fit in with the FFH world.

Beasts. These buggers you could arrange to have ONLY travel in certain areas. This could be Giant spiders among others.

The giant spider may only be allowed in Jungle, Forests, and similar features. Perhaps they'd be given the potential of getting access to new terrains by promotion. "Pit spider" evolution/promotion would allow them to travel on deserts, and plains. "Crag spider" may allow them to traverse hills and mountains (a definate advantage). Each "beast" would be limited to certain terrain - but would be very deadly in those terrains, and whatever "den" is created would be even more deadly. The "good side" is that perhaps some sort of reward is given for eliminating beasts. Perhaps "gold from hides" would be a good boon. Or den's might become very rare and very potent luxury resource tiles when destroyed. This allowes for myriad beasts of D&D lore - AND if myriad beasts were encoded into the game, it might be rare to see any one kind of them. An "Ice Wyrm" found only in glaciar spots, might never appear for 20 games, if there were other compeditors for spawning and terrain type. So seeing one, and slaying it would be all the more fun.


Finally, Monsters. I see monsters as being the "catch" all for fun, unique, and special units that the team will most likely develop into questing and other fun things for scenario's later.

Skeletons and many summons would be "monsters". Each individual monster would obey its own unique rules. Skeletons would have many animal, and potentially "bestial" and "barbarian" traits. They can spawn anywhere, they're not animals, but they can have "spawn point/dens".

Monster may also be a nice catagory for Dragons. Unless they get their own.


Just my thoughts.
-Qes

ADD: Potential Ideas for "beasts"


Offspring are assumed to be "minor" or "baby" versions of each and are expected to "mature" after a given amount of time (depending on balance)

All units and dens are assumed to give "gold" as reward for their destruction (depending on balance) unless otherwise stated.


Giant Spider - Forests/Jungle
- is invisable
- can upgrade to access to desert/plains and mountain/hills and tundra/ice
- Can produce offspring (spawn)

Ice Wyrm - Ice
- can upgrade to access tundra
- gains xp slowly over time
- Den produces a luxury resource if destroyed

Crag Hag - Mountains/Hills
- can "capture" units (making your units into barbarians)
- can make "fake" dens/spawnpoints
- Actual Den has combat ability and poison damage.
- Actual Den produces a free settler or worker (freed people from the crag hag) if destroyed.

Sand Tyrant - Desert
- is invisible if fortified
- has "devour" ability (insta kill weakest unit in stack)
- Den is invisable

Gorzilla - Jungle
- Gains bonus experiance per victory
- can produce offspring
- Baby gorzilla has a movement of 0 and gives all other units in stack a movement total of 0 (family care-taking)

Man of War - Coastal/Sea
- has Poison damage
- produces offspring
- can pillage
- movement = 0 on resources tiles (fish/whale, clam)

Yeti - Tundra/Mountain
- can "mate" with Sasquatch (if in ending its turn in the same tile as a sasquatch, it will have a high chance of producing a hybrid - which would have terrain access to all 4 terrain types.)
- Produces offspring
- Can enter cultural boundries

Sasquatch - Jungle/Forest
- can "mate" with Yeti (if in ending its turn in the same tile as a Yeti, it will have a high chance of producing a hybrid - which would have terrain access to all 4 terrain types.)
- Produces offspring
- Can enter cultural boundries

Razor Back - Grasslands/Plains
- Will attack anything (barbarian/animal/beast)
- If it destroys another den - it replaces it with one of its own.
- If den is destroyed, a metal resource will appear in the tile.

Formians - Hills/Plains
- Can upgrade to access any terrain
- Den's are "Hives" and are hidden/invisable.
- Hives spawn Formians anywhere within 5 spaces of the Hive (and still in appropriate terrain)
- Hives spawn more frequently than Dens
- Hives can be captured (and produce friendly formians) by scouts with the appropriate ability.


Just some ideas.

It sounds sort of Shadow-y, if you take my meaning. ;)

Some interesting ideas there, QES. I really like your categorizations of the bad guys in FFH and they leave the door open to all type of possible units.

I just have one request: please, no Great People or Wonders in barbarian cities, OK?

One additional note: I know each game is different and game starting variables can determine a lot. In my current game, I have seen very few animals after the real barbs arrived. I have been pounded for nearly 200 turns with virtually no let up. Of course, meanwhile, the AI civs are expanding. I already have 4 Warriors maxed out with 100 XP and several more with plenty of XP too. I have not been able to think about building a second city yet. So, for me, in this game anyway, there is no animal issue.

Some interesting ideas there, QES. I really like your categorizations of the bad guys in FFH and they leave the door open to all type of possible units.

I just have one request: please, no Great People or Wonders in barbarian cities, OK?

One additional note: I know each game is different and game starting variables can determine a lot. In my current game, I have seen very few animals after the real barbs arrived. I have been pounded for nearly 200 turns with virtually no let up. Of course, meanwhile, the AI civs are expanding. I already have 4 Warriors maxed out with 100 XP and several more with plenty of XP too. I have not been able to think about building a second city yet. So, for me, in this game anyway, there is no animal issue.

What if the "Great people" that barbarians produced didnt have any special abilities - but instead were just 6 different types of "uber monster" that could roam the country side? It'd be using the great people production mechanic - but not the great people mechanics themselves.

-Qes

What if the "Great people" that barbarians produced didnt have any special abilities - but instead were just 6 different types of "uber monster" that could roam the country side? It'd be using the great people production mechanic - but not the great people mechanics themselves.

-Qes

Oh look they've brought a cave troll...

However, if the barbs target them, their civs will be destroyed in short order. One Warrior defender per city just won't cut it.

One more thing that I have found is when you have a lot of open spaces like that, barb cities pop up like weeds with connecting roads. If you try to go and take them out, the counter moves up and more pop up. I find managing the barb city explosion about as challenging as the 'raging' barbs themselves. The AI civs, by the way, make the counter move along quickly as they always go out to raze barb cities and the new ones that take their place. I noticed several times that a strong civ such as Elohim was wiped out very fast by the barbs. And playing agaist barbs is mostly not so diffucult resp. interesting as against other, stronger civs.[/QUOTE]In a Marathon game, IMO, the counter moves too quickly for this reason.[/QUOTE]Not only in a marathon game, my friend! Also at normal speed, just by these many barb cities. They should not influence the AC so much, more in a positive way. Raging a barb city should reduce the AC.

And the sanctifying spell I usually do not have so early.

- can "mate" with Sasquatch
Would this be a Sasqueti or a Yuatch?

Crag Hag - Mountains/Hills
- can "capture" units (making your units into barbarians)
will barbarians be hostile to beasts?

Man of War - Coastal/Sea
- produces offspring
- movement = 0 on resources tiles (fish/whale, clam)
that's just mean =p

nice entries btw

What if the "Great people" that barbarians produced didnt have any special abilities - but instead were just 6 different types of "uber monster" that could roam the country side? It'd be using the great people production mechanic - but not the great people mechanics themselves.

-Qes

I love this idea! Instead of giving them Captain Ostanes every $#@! game, give them another Orthus-like bad guy. I mean, what ever happens to Captain Ostanes? Ever see a barb with a Great Commander attached?:p

I know it has been mentioned before, but after Orthus is killed, it can be a long wait until the Four Horsemen appear. Fill the interim with a Great Barb Bad Guy!

I noticed several times that a strong civ such as Elohim was wiped out very fast by the barbs. And playing agaist barbs is mostly not so diffucult resp. interesting as against other, stronger civs.In a Marathon game, IMO, the counter moves too quickly for this reason.[/QUOTE]Not only in a marathon game, my friend! Also at normal speed, just by these many barb cities. They should not influence the AC so much, more in a positive way. Raging a barb city should reduce the AC.

And the sanctifying spell I usually do not have so early.[/QUOTE]

I have found the barb city issue manageable in Epic games. However, in Marathon games it has become almost funny. Two things should be done to better manage the counter in marathon games. Both pertain to the barb cities, which, IMO, really are the main cause of the counter advancing:

1. Don't increase the counter one for each barb city razed. Make it .33 or .25. I think Sanctify has this same non-one-for-one deal.

2. Slow down the rate at which new barb cities are settled. Sometimes it is just ridiculous. I have taken out a barb city on my border (but just out of sight), only to have a new one appear a few turns later. Barb cities are a real nuisance and if you don't have the gold to capture them, you must raze, and there goes the counter increasing again.

A new update on the baby spider to Giant spider progression:

In my current game, I had a baby spider turn into a Giant spider THE VERY NEXT TURN! This surprised me especially because the baby spider had not yet healed.

On the other end of the spectrum, I sent a baby spider to one of my cities to heal and mature...200 turns later it was still a baby spider. I don't know what happened there, but I had completely forgotten about it until I got the tech that allowed me to build spider pens.

Slow down the rate at which new barb cities are settled. Sometimes it is just ridiculous. I have taken out a barb city on my border (but just out of sight), only to have a new one appear a few turns later. Barb cities are a real nuisance and if you don't have the gold to capture them, you must raze, and there goes the counter increasing again.In my recent game at normal speed another civ wiped out a barb city. Three turns later the same city was there with a barb in it.

You make me curious, i'll try marathon again in my next game.

Since animals and "barbarians" are being sepearted in function (and through a mod, barbs can actually hunt animals) it leads to some new interesting early and mid game fun.

I have some ideas on this. Specifically, I think it'd be awesome to see the "non-civ" units divided even more.

Barbarians (a rival non-controlled civ), Animals (as they are now), Beasts (animals that adhere to specific terrain/climate), and finally "Monsters" (Your garden variety "I dont know where this unit goes" unit.

Barbarians would function as they do now. Getting free units, building cities, constantly razing/capturing your cities and ravaging your country side. As per normal wonderful barbarian behaviors.

Animals would function as they do now. Spawning, harassing your explorers and expansion plans. Also capturable to fit in with the FFH world.

Beasts. These buggers you could arrange to have ONLY travel in certain areas. This could be Giant spiders among others.

The giant spider may only be allowed in Jungle, Forests, and similar features. Perhaps they'd be given the potential of getting access to new terrains by promotion. "Pit spider" evolution/promotion would allow them to travel on deserts, and plains. "Crag spider" may allow them to traverse hills and mountains (a definate advantage). Each "beast" would be limited to certain terrain - but would be very deadly in those terrains, and whatever "den" is created would be even more deadly. The "good side" is that perhaps some sort of reward is given for eliminating beasts. Perhaps "gold from hides" would be a good boon. Or den's might become very rare and very potent luxury resource tiles when destroyed. This allowes for myriad beasts of D&D lore - AND if myriad beasts were encoded into the game, it might be rare to see any one kind of them. An "Ice Wyrm" found only in glaciar spots, might never appear for 20 games, if there were other compeditors for spawning and terrain type. So seeing one, and slaying it would be all the more fun.


Finally, Monsters. I see monsters as being the "catch" all for fun, unique, and special units that the team will most likely develop into questing and other fun things for scenario's later.

Skeletons and many summons would be "monsters". Each individual monster would obey its own unique rules. Skeletons would have many animal, and potentially "bestial" and "barbarian" traits. They can spawn anywhere, they're not animals, but they can have "spawn point/dens".

Monster may also be a nice catagory for Dragons. Unless they get their own.


Just my thoughts.
-Qes

ADD: Potential Ideas for "beasts"


Offspring are assumed to be "minor" or "baby" versions of each and are expected to "mature" after a given amount of time (depending on balance)

All units and dens are assumed to give "gold" as reward for their destruction (depending on balance) unless otherwise stated.


Giant Spider - Forests/Jungle
- is invisable
- can upgrade to access to desert/plains and mountain/hills and tundra/ice
- Can produce offspring (spawn)

Ice Wyrm - Ice
- can upgrade to access tundra
- gains xp slowly over time
- Den produces a luxury resource if destroyed

Crag Hag - Mountains/Hills
- can "capture" units (making your units into barbarians)
- can make "fake" dens/spawnpoints
- Actual Den has combat ability and poison damage.
- Actual Den produces a free settler or worker (freed people from the crag hag) if destroyed.

Sand Tyrant - Desert
- is invisible if fortified
- has "devour" ability (insta kill weakest unit in stack)
- Den is invisable

Gorzilla - Jungle
- Gains bonus experiance per victory
- can produce offspring
- Baby gorzilla has a movement of 0 and gives all other units in stack a movement total of 0 (family care-taking)

Man of War - Coastal/Sea
- has Poison damage
- produces offspring
- can pillage
- movement = 0 on resources tiles (fish/whale, clam)

Yeti - Tundra/Mountain
- can "mate" with Sasquatch (if in ending its turn in the same tile as a sasquatch, it will have a high chance of producing a hybrid - which would have terrain access to all 4 terrain types.)
- Produces offspring
- Can enter cultural boundries

Sasquatch - Jungle/Forest
- can "mate" with Yeti (if in ending its turn in the same tile as a Yeti, it will have a high chance of producing a hybrid - which would have terrain access to all 4 terrain types.)
- Produces offspring
- Can enter cultural boundries

Razor Back - Grasslands/Plains
- Will attack anything (barbarian/animal/beast)
- If it destroys another den - it replaces it with one of its own.
- If den is destroyed, a metal resource will appear in the tile.

Formians - Hills/Plains
- Can upgrade to access any terrain
- Den's are "Hives" and are hidden/invisable.
- Hives spawn Formians anywhere within 5 spaces of the Hive (and still in appropriate terrain)
- Hives spawn more frequently than Dens
- Hives can be captured (and produce friendly formians) by scouts with the appropriate ability.


Just some ideas.


like the idea of beasts that can only travel in one terrain, could then allow them to enter cultural borders without them becoming an all pervasive problem.

currently animals are very easily dealt with by just pushing out cultural borders and building new cities near existing borders. but if there were some beasts that make an entire track of land uninhabitable it would extend the lifespan of the wilds a bit.

like the sand animals, would make settling along certain deserts/floodplains too dangerous until its dealt with, since even if you managed to get a settler safely there, afterwards you'd have the beast killing your units and trying to destroy your city. you would then realize you must avoid that track of land until you can deal with the problem.

like the idea of beasts that can only travel in one terrain, could then allow them to enter cultural borders without them becoming an all pervasive problem.Good idea! By this way these animals can be found almost the whole game if you need any. Maybe they should be born regulary to make them available.

In a Marathon game, IMO, the counter moves too quickly for this reason.

2. Slow down the rate at which new barb cities are settled. Sometimes it is just ridiculous. I have taken out a barb city on my border (but just out of sight), only to have a new one appear a few turns later. Barb cities are a real nuisance and if you don't have the gold to capture them, you must raze, and there goes the counter increasing again.Hi Sarisin, as promised - getting strongly influenced by you - I tried marathon. My report: Wave after wave of barbs, they wiped out 2 civs rather fast. Hundreds of - seen - wolves, thousands of them.

The only battle is against the barbs, showing 3 problems:
1. The increasing AI as already mentioned by you.
2. Conquering a barb or foreigner city is problematic, at the beginning one does not have purification, so no farms etc. can be built on the old territory.
3. The limitation of XP for e.g. the fighters. When >100XP is possible?

For marathon speed the latter two are building a very serious limitation.

The whole character of the game is totally different. Pure survival, till the year 550 no direct contact (e.g. a battle) with another civ!! And how to overcome Archeron??? Impossible!
Thank you for your advice, it's nice and completely changing the view.

Hi Sarisin, as promised - getting strongly influenced by you - I tried marathon. My report: Wave after wave of barbs, they wiped out 2 civs rather fast. Hundreds of - seen - wolves, thousands of them.

The only battle is against the barbs, showing 3 problems:
1. The increasing AI as already mentioned by you.
2. Conquering a barb or foreigner city is problematic, at the beginning one does not have purification, so no farms etc. can be built on the old territory.
3. The limitation of XP for e.g. the fighters. When >100XP is possible?

For marathon speed the latter two are building a very serious limitation.

The whole character of the game is totally different. Pure survival, till the year 550 no direct contact (e.g. a battle) with another civ!! And how to overcome Archeron??? Impossible!
Thank you for your advice, it's nice and completely changing the view.

I just finished a Marathon game playing as Cardith Lorda. I've gone back to Epic. There really is a big difference IMO between those two speeds. Techs take forever to research in Marathon and a Worker needs 24 turns to build a simple farm. Getting that first Warrior will take 50 turns (maybe a bit less).

Still, the animals, skeletons, etc. come the same time as in other speeds. The counter moves along before you have a chance to get Courage or decent units to defend against the Four Horsemen.

Yes, Acheron is untouchable for a long time and will muck up everything when his city happens to settle close to you. Another good reason to take out barb cities near you, but the counter moves on. You can Sanctify when you get Life Mana/Adepts, but the AI never does this and razes plenty of barb cities. The counter marches on.

You get past the 100 XP threshold in 4 ways I can think of - maybe there are more:

1. Your civ has the Raider trait.
2. You defeat a non-barb unit.
3. You attach a Great Commander
4. You happen to pop a goodie hut and gain experience when you have 100.

I have seen a few units get 101 pts on their own, but not many can do this.

I'm glad you tried to play a Marathon game. I'm not complaining, but I really think the game designers had the faster games in mind when they designed this mod. The slower speeds present a real challenge. I have been able to win Epic games (still slow) up to Emperor, but Marathon games, only about 50-50 at Prince.

Still, it's fun trying the slower speeds IMO and I don't enjoy the Normal or Quick games. That's why I posted that thread on starting position being important, because I know I am in it for the long haul and want to get off to a good start. :)

Still, it's fun trying the slower speeds IMO and I don't enjoy the Normal or Quick games. That's why I posted that thread on starting position being important, because I know I am in it for the long haul and want to get off to a good start. :)You are quite right! But in the beginning one or two reptile warriors, one with some XP (for what and how?!), cannot be overcome for a long time, esp. in forests. This is not only hard to face, but annoying feeling so helpless (being forced to be passive instead of active!). They only have strenth 3! If the barb archers with 2/4 will not make mistakes by attacking (weak AI), you cannot overcome them by attacking not having developed the city conquer bonus for a very long time.

Here some adjustments would be nice, esp. when the other civs are wiped out and are therefore missing for competition in the future. One of it is having copper and jems available. But my nearest copper deposit is occupied by Archeron, the jems as well. So I have to live with strength 3 for swordsmen etc. Funny! The probability to find copper by an occasional mine will help considerably.

The only chance is e.g. to overcome Orthus the sooner, that the AI makes tactical mistakes. And this is not so funny, just being in the only position waiting for mistakes ...

I prefer to play Malakim - having fire mana early on and some good heros such as Barbur, Arthendain, Baron Halfmorn. In my way to play they are decisive.

I was totally astonished as a fighter of Kilmorph, placed in a forest, restisted against many, many wolves, he now has 100XP just "automatically" and was only one time hurt! Do not underestimate the dwarves!!

But I do not want to change the balance by myself, for where is the limit to make it too easy?

You get past the 100 XP threshold in 4 ways I can think of - maybe there are more:

1. Your civ has the Raider trait.
2. You defeat a non-barb unit.
3. You attach a Great Commander
4. You happen to pop a goodie hut and gain experience when you have 100.

I have seen a few units get 101 pts on their own, but not many can do this. Thank you very much for your advices. These conditions are not easy to fulfill.
ad 2) There are no such units to be seen!
ad 3) A Great Commander is sufficient? Just to have in a city?
ad 4) In the years > 600 there should not be too many huts in the near suroundings - any more.

Does anybody know other conditions?

you attach the Great Commander to a unit to get +1 strength and +1xp per fight.

the Law2 (i think) spell Valor also adds +1xp per fight.

go to war with another civilization for non-barb units to kill

go to war with another civilization for non-barb units to killThank you! Very clever advise!!

1. I misunderstood you completely. I meant to declare war, then kill barbs, then the XP exceeds the 100-limit.
2. There are no other civs in the vicinity, all are wiped out by the barbs.
3. So there are no other non-barb units available.

ad 3) A Great Commander is sufficient? Just to have in a city?


He has to be joined to the unit. And I'm not ao sure that he allows the unit to exceed 100XP limit from fighting barbs (wiki is still down, so can't check it). For sure he makes the unit gain XP faster.

I can see the problem that the barbs and animals can cause at the slower speeds, but as was mentioned, I think the mod was designed to play at normal speed. I have been playing at normal speeds, and it just seems like that speed plays closer to a vanilla epic game.

I think Kael needs to modify the spawning percentages for the slower games, or in a marathon game he would need to just delay the arrival of barbs an extra 20 turns. I guess then you would still need to deal with the animals while you try and settle your next city.

I can see the problem that the barbs and animals can cause at the slower speeds, but as was mentioned, I think the mod was designed to play at normal speed. I have been playing at normal speeds, and it just seems like that speed plays closer to a vanilla epic game.

I think Kael needs to modify the spawning percentages for the slower games, or in a marathon game he would need to just delay the arrival of barbs an extra 20 turns. I guess then you would still need to deal with the animals while you try and settle your next city.

They are modified by the game speed train modifier. So if it takes you twice as long to train a warrior the spawn chance is halved, etc.

They are modified by the game speed train modifier. So if it takes you twice as long to train a warrior the spawn chance is halved, etc.Do you feel this modifier fits exactely? In marathon this makes a very big difference in regard to barbs and esp. wolves. I do not see a single square being unoccupied by wolves. Sometimes there are 6 units per single square.

Do you feel this modifier fits exactely? In marathon this makes a very big difference in regard to barbs and esp. wolves. I do not see a single square being unoccupied by wolves. Sometimes there are 6 units per single square.

This isn't possible in 0.23. Wolves stop spawning entirely if there are more than 1 wolf per 10 unowned tiles of the continent they are on.

So yes, I feel like the spawn rate is appropriate, but an upper limit is also required which resolves the issue you are noting.

Would this be a Sasqueti or a Yuatch?


will barbarians be hostile to beasts?


that's just mean =p

nice entries btw

Thanks. I liked "Sasqueti" for your hybrid name the best.

Also - I would think that each "type" of these untis would be hostile to others. Beasts hostile to Barbarians hostile to animals, hostile to monsters.

The one type of beast would even be hostile to other beasts maybe? Its up for grabs, I was just musing.
-Qes

like the idea of beasts that can only travel in one terrain, could then allow them to enter cultural borders without them becoming an all pervasive problem.

currently animals are very easily dealt with by just pushing out cultural borders and building new cities near existing borders. but if there were some beasts that make an entire track of land uninhabitable it would extend the lifespan of the wilds a bit.

like the sand animals, would make settling along certain deserts/floodplains too dangerous until its dealt with, since even if you managed to get a settler safely there, afterwards you'd have the beast killing your units and trying to destroy your city. you would then realize you must avoid that track of land until you can deal with the problem.

Sureshot - yours are among the opinions I value most, and it pleases me greatly to see you enjoying the concepts behind my ideas.
-Qes

They are modified by the game speed train modifier. So if it takes you twice as long to train a warrior the spawn chance is halved, etc.

So you're saying that the Dirge, barrows, ruins, etc. would not spawn bad guys in a Marathon game as fast as in a Normal game?

I just can't understand, then, how I can move my Scout/Warrior to a barrow in a Marathon game and find a Skeleton guard there on or before turn 7.

Would it be possible for you to also use this modifier to slow down the rate at which barb cities 'spawn?' This a big problem with the counter moving too fast in Marathon games IMO as the AI razes them at will and, of course, never uses the Sanctify spell.

Thanks.

This isn't possible in 0.23. Wolves stop spawning entirely if there are more than 1 wolf per 10 unowned tiles of the continent they are on.
Very fine, thank you.

So you're saying that the Dirge, barrows, ruins, etc. would not spawn bad guys in a Marathon game as fast as in a Normal game?

I just can't understand, then, how I can move my Scout/Warrior to a barrow in a Marathon game and find a Skeleton guard there on or before turn 7.

Would it be possible for you to also use this modifier to slow down the rate at which barb cities 'spawn?' This a big problem with the counter moving too fast in Marathon games IMO as the AI razes them at will and, of course, never uses the Sanctify spell.

Thanks.

Yes, it applies to all spawns. Game speed also already effects the barbarian city creation.

Yes, it applies to all spawns. Game speed also already effects the barbarian city creation.

Maybe I don't understand the concept of spawning then. :)

In the Marathon Fire games I have been trying to play, the barb cities spawn at an alarming rate. As I mentioned in another thread I took one out, moved away and another spawned in its place 3 turns later. This tends to happen a lot. Then, you are faced with taking out the barb city and moving the counter, or letting the barbs have a base for spawning other units. Also, a bit later, you can get the Red Dragon or the Four Horsemen in these barb cities near your borders.

If you really think this is an issue, perhaps you should get some concrete numbers from your next game. It's pretty ambiguous to say "it happens a lot", plus people tend to remember the bad more than the good (which has caused much debate over the accuracy of Civ IV combat odds).

For myself, I haven't experienced such a barbarian city spawning issue. In fact, when I feel like having a crazy barbarian game, I up the chances of them spawning cities (among other adjustments).

If you really think this is an issue, perhaps you should get some concrete numbers from your next game. It's pretty ambiguous to say "it happens a lot", plus people tend to remember the bad more than the good (which has caused much debate over the accuracy of Civ IV combat odds).

For myself, I haven't experienced such a barbarian city spawning issue. In fact, when I feel like having a crazy barbarian game, I up the chances of them spawning cities (among other adjustments).

Thank you for your suggestion. Of course, it would be difficult to count all the barb cities spawning on a huge map. I can only see those that pop up near my borders. But, I think it is obvious one of the main causes of the AC advancing is the AI civs razing barb cities.

I wouldn't expect you to see many barb cities spawning when you play with 16 civs. I'm not sure why you use the raging barb option as they have surely been pushed off the map as the numerous civs expand. ;) V, please try to play a raging barb game with the default number of civs and see if you do not agree with me.

And, by the way, I don't think it is necessary to provide CSI-like stats. This is a discussion forum and I don't see a problem with someone giving honest comments based on his game-playing experience. I haven't been the only one to make suggestions like these regarding the playability of Fire on the slower speeds.

Again, though, the game cannot be designed to please everyone with all the game selection variables available. I just asked for a clarification on something that should be working - the game speed modifier, that, based on my gameplay, doesn't seem to be covering the barb city creation.

Have a nice weekend, V!

How do Giant Spiders make babies? (No, I'm not asking where Papa Spider is. I know the gruesome truth.) But if I have Subdued a Giant Spider, does it matter where I put her? Does a cage prevent her having babies? How long should I expect to wait for the baby to appear?

You get a baby spider every time your giant spider kills a living unit.

So theoretically, I could feed junk units (like subdued wolves) to a Barbarian spider and have it churn out babies? Cool.

Yup. Conversely, if you have a lot of wolves running around the wild areas in your game, you could run a spider through, killing them all, and getting a baby each time.

I've had to rein in my spiders since each baby adds to maintenance. Or, I just delete the baby as soon as it is created.

Or, I just delete the baby as soon as it is created.

How wonderfully horrible.
-Qes

How wonderfully horrible.
-Qes

He must be taking lessons from Barack Obama.
Threadjack2. QES just got outdone.

He must be taking lessons from Barack Obama.
Threadjack2. QES just got outdone.

Weak link.

On some harry potter funniness news: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mk7bNISDMbo

-Qes