Many players feel that Imperialistic is one of the weaker traits in the game and I happen to agree with them. This trait is one of the few which fails to provide a production bonus to any building type, a conspicuously paradoxic omission given the general weakness of the trait.

Since most of the building types are already "spoken for" by other traits, only the dregs remain. Having said that, a small bonus might still be big for a weak trait that needs it most! ;)

My suggestion is 1/2 off Jails and perhaps the new customs house for Imperialistic. Both would arguably fit from a "fluff" perspective and add a dash of pizazz to a relatively ho-hum trait. A pair of small warmaking/espionage and trade based economic buffs seem entirely consistent and appropriate for Imperialistic civs in my opinion.

Thoughts? :)

I agree imperialistic is too weak. But maybe instead of 1/2 production of buildings it could provide, say, make spies and espionage missions cheaper? I'd like that.

Lesser Upkeep from City Maintienance from number of cities (Like in Organized, just in another area)?

I'd like to see it do something along the lines of either cheaper jails and customs houses or a bonus to espionage points/great spy points. I think decreasing the city maintance would make it too powerful though.

Lesser Upkeep from City Maintienance from number of cities (Like in Organized, just in another area)?

That is good, with low maintenance the Imperialistic civs don't need to creat colonies, keeping the cities in other continents under its control!

I would like to see Imperialistic half the mainteinance cost of overseas cities (possible colonies) added in BtS, or as other said making cheaper jails,intelligence agency and security bureau, so that this trait would be a lot more useful

Half-price buildings or an espionage boost would be a nice way to improve the trait. At the moment unfortunately it is only slightly useful.

If some of the "rumors" that were on the board earlier were correct Jails will allow two population set as spies, serving a dual purpose of enhancing both espionage and warmaking. Seems to me a perfect improvement for a lacklustre trait, one that Firaxis will hopefully consider implementing.

Fraulzar: That thread did not exist. Never mention it again. ;)

How about having it give less war-weariness, like 10-25%? That would make it better for sure.

How about having it give less war-weariness, like 10-25%? That would make it better for sure.

This is a BRILLIANT idea. This is the one boost to Imperialistic that I think ought to be included.

How about some of those new Buildings? -50% customs office construction time?

IMPERIALISTIC:
+100% Great General Emergence.
+50% Faster production of Settlers.
-25% Spy mission cost.

I think that would be SWEET AS.

I'd like to see 25% cheaper spy missions. That would be alot of fun.

But what does that have to do with Imperialism?

well one way it might get boosted is if the Settler bonus applied to both Food AND Hammers
(which might explain why Expansive was 'nerfed' it would be no nerf if the +25% was +25% Hammers AND Food)

But what does that have to do with Imperialism?

Yeah, the trait describes leaders who are particularly noted for expanding the borders of their nations, often through warfare, hence the 100% GG emergance.

I would like to see either a decreased city maintence cost, thus allowing for the founding of larger empires. (kinda like organized. u think 10% less maintnence would be overpowered? hmmm...)

Yes I could also imagine 1/2 price jails and custom houses maybe...

I think a spy businessy type bonus would fit for protective maybe, but its quite debatable as to whether that trait needs a boost.

But what does that have to do with Imperialism?

Imperialist powers need to expand their influence and at the same time protect their holdings and to do that they need to keep an extensive intelligence network to spy on their enemies and expand their influence. Look at the USA, USSR, Britain, China etc

I think the -25% Spy mission cost bonus makes perfect sense. Firaxis could you please add it to BtS? Consider it a gift to a very dedicated fan :please:

well

a decrease in "City number Maintenance" cost would be good, since that depends on your cities AND your Vassals Cities, so Imperialistic would make Vassals cheaper

Cheap Jails would give a War bonus and an espionage bonus for peace time

Cheap Customs Houses would encourage an Intercontinental Empire of Trade Partners... it depends on whether they affect Vassal trade too.. since that counts as Domestic in most circumstances.

I'm hoping for the Food+Hammers bonus, because that would mean expansive didn't get nerfed...just chop/whipping with expansive.

Large Empires throughout history have employed intelligence services to protect themselves from covert threats both internal and external. I definitely think that some sort of bonus to espionage bodes well here. Still now that I think of it, -25% to spy costs could be VERY powerful especially in the late game where missions can cost thousands of EP...

Lot of good ideas here. Hope I see some of them implimented next month.

However, I do have to point out that any trait that gives a lower cost for "number of cities" would be extremely powerful when combined with State Property which eliminates the cost for distance.

Ideally I'd like to see it run this way:

Extra production/commerce from Capital city
1/2 cost for cities built overseas
1/2 cost for custom houses & Jails

I got rid of -

Cheaper settlers
Twice as many great generals

Replacing them to a bonus to production and commerce in the capital city which would still let you build your settlers faster, and support extra armies or cities in the early game. More early military units would indeed result in more great generals, if your a war player.

The "imperial city" combined with lowered costs for cities over the ocean would encourage you to grow larger early, and keep your colonies rather than turning them into colonies. It would also provide a synergy with the "beaurocracy" civic.

Early in the game the benefit of the imperial city would shrink, especially if you didn't manage your empire wisely, but it would be very nice for those first few turns. Even if it was only a small 5-10% bonus.

I think with this change "Imperial" would be on par with the wonder building of "Industrial", all the gold generated by commercial, and the lack of revolution costs from spiritual. Not to mention the extra XP generated by charismatic. While compared to those right now the trait stinks. lol

Espionage and spying is one game mechanic that is not clearly represented by any trait. So, it makes sense to add some trait feature that affects it. However, I'm guessing that Firaxis will leave the traits alone (besides Expansive). It'll be up to modders to add it in, or a clever patch.

I don't want to say what a bonus will be until I've actually played the expansion. I can say I am considering a lot of stuff for a mod that I am making, that "corrects" a few things in the game for me. I'll post it if anyone cares to play it...

+100% Great General 'Emergence'
+50% Faster Settler Production
+50% Spy Points Generated

+100% Great General 'Emergence'
+50% Faster Settler Production
+50% Spy Points Generated

Are you sure that's not too overpowered?

Imperialistic is about FAST border expansion by settlement or war. Also means faster scouting, which you can attribute to better trained mobile units such as horse units. I say the stable should be built in 1/2 the time. Also a great benefit to Ghengis Kahn who should have such an adnavtage based on his historical empire (Just like the Casears get dynamite UUs and Ubs, Americans get Late UUs UBs). Alternative I like the -25% cost to spy missions or preferrable -25% war weariness say outside your cultural borders(forget the 1/2 cost of jails).

Are you sure that's not too overpowered?How the hell would I know? :/

Are you sure that's not too overpowered?

I'll be honest with you, I would still consider that underpowered.

I still think a bonus to extra culture and commerce in the capital city is the best option. Haven't seen any comments on it, but then it dropped into the middle of a forum already talking about other ideas.

The option provides the ability to crank out extra early units in your capital city, including settlers, and helps you to support your early "empire" more easilly. Plus you could put some of that extra commerce into espionage if you wanted, or into science.

I still think the best idea is to reduce Mantienance from Number of cities by, say, 10% or maybe even 15%.

+100% Great General 'Emergence'
+50% Faster Settler Production
0 costs to maintain vassals.

That would be a nice and appropriate addition as Imperialism is all about making milking others for profit.


That said Imperialism isn't weak, especially as great generals can be generated very quickly if you double up the trait with the Great Wall and so you'll soon have super promo'ed units from your cities and later on lots ofcities where the cost of units is -50%.

+100% Great General 'Emergence'
+50% Faster Settler Production
0 costs to maintain vassals.Maybe also make it more difficult for a capitulated vassal to get out of the masters grasp, ie, make it so that it needs 75% of masters land size or 75% of the masters population or needs to loose over 75% of it's land at capitulation in order to be able to break away.

Are you sure that's not too overpowered?
Thats rediculously overpowered. Theres a espionage slider, so we have to assume espionage is equal to Science and Culture in value. Who wouldn't play a civ that gave them +50% Culture, +100 Great general emergence and +50% Settler Production? Personally I think just +50% customs house and it will be perfect.

Thats rediculously overpowered. Theres a espionage slider, so we have to assume espionage is equal to Science and Culture in value. Who wouldn't play a civ that gave them +50% Culture, +100 Great general emergence and +50% Settler Production? Personally I think just +50% customs house and it will be perfect.Except it'll be useless for lakes/pangae/great plains maps.

Thats rediculously overpowered. Theres a espionage slider, so we have to assume espionage is equal to Science and Culture in value. Who wouldn't play a civ that gave them +50% Culture, +100 Great general emergence and +50% Settler Production? Personally I think just +50% customs house and it will be perfect.

I think he meant Great Spy point generation [kinda like GG point being double] not espionage spending.

My suggestion is 1/2 off Jails and perhaps the new customs house for Imperialistic.

I think this is a good suggestion, it's very imperialistic skill in its own way.

Lesser Upkeep from City Maintienance from number of cities (Like in Organized, just in another area)?

That is good, with low maintenance the Imperialistic civs don't need to creat colonies, keeping the cities in other continents under its control!

That wouldn't be as great bonus as said above, because main reason for getting rid of colonies isn't the number of cities maintenance, it's the distance to palace maintenance generated by the ocean between the motherland and its colonies.

However, I do have to point out that any trait that gives a lower cost for "number of cities" would be extremely powerful when combined with State Property which eliminates the cost for distance.

It wouldn't be extremely powerful, because State Property blocks your own corporations plus your enemies' corporations from working in your country.

I'd like to see 25% cheaper spy missions. That would be alot of fun.

That would be very powerful, even overpowered, if you make a lot of espionage missions.

I'm hoping for the Food+Hammers bonus, because that would mean expansive didn't get nerfed...just chop/whipping with expansive.

This may be the best way to make it better, though I think it could still have either Jail or Customs House double-speed bonus in addition to this without being overpowered.

+100% Great General 'Emergence'
+50% Faster Settler Production
0 costs to maintain vassals.

That would be a nice and appropriate addition as Imperialism is all about making milking others for profit.


I think this is perhaps more palatable than an espionage bonus, however I would be more inclined to a reduction in vassal maintainance costs rather than none (for balance issues). It would also make colonies more appealing, as some on this board find this new aspect to be less than beneficial to their playing style.

As an earlier poster said, it would be similar to Organized, but emphasizes Imperialism's ability to manage lands acquired not of their own, but through aggressive expansion.

That wouldn't be as great bonus as said above, because main reason for getting rid of colonies isn't the number of cities maintenance, it's the distance to palace maintenance generated by the ocean between the motherland and its colonies.


No, in BTS there are 3 types of City Maintenance
1. Distance
2. Number of Cities
3. Overseas

3 is the reason to form Colonies
1 is a reason to build FPs /Get State Property

2 INCLUDES Vassals and Colonies

so if you have a lot of cities (Either as part of your empire OR vassals of some kind) #2 will be high.

so a low # of Cities Maintenance means you can be 'the master' of more cities one way or another.

In any case I Really hope they get the food/production bonus first, because that is something that doesn't act in a simple/ as expected manner.

No, in BTS there are 3 types of City Maintenance
1. Distance
2. Number of Cities
3. Overseas

3 is the reason to form Colonies
1 is a reason to build FPs /Get State Property

2 INCLUDES Vassals and Colonies

so if you have a lot of cities (Either as part of your empire OR vassals of some kind) #2 will be high.

so a low # of Cities Maintenance means you can be 'the master' of more cities one way or another.

In any case I Really hope they get the food/production bonus first, because that is something that doesn't act in a simple/ as expected manner.

Actually there's 4 types of Maintenance, if you include Corporations.

I's personally Have Stables and Airports, I Don't mind the Cheap Stables help the UU of most of the Imp Leaders, when you think about the cheap Barracks that help the Agg UUs. (Also increase the cost of the Mongol Ger)

I also like the Idea of improved Espionage though a bonus in points or a decrease in Spy missions.

I only build one or two stables. I would much prefer cheap jails and custom houses. I think it's more useful and makes more sense with Imperialist.

I'd like to wait to see what Firaxis does. They are already messing around with the Expansive trait, so we really don't know if they will change the Imperialistic trait as well.

I only build one or two stables. I would much prefer cheap jails and custom houses. I think it's more useful and makes more sense with Imperialist.Cheap jails I understand, but I don't see how cheap Custom Houses are any more appropriate to Imperialistic than Stables would be.

Cheap jails I understand, but I don't see how cheap Custom Houses are any more appropriate to Imperialistic than Stables would be.

I think the Custom Houses would refer to the economic aspects of Imperialism. As others have mentioned, Imperialism doesn't have to be only a military trait. The Custom Houses provide Imperialist with a slight bonus to their trading abilities, and Imperialist nations tend to have asymmetrical trading relations. It will not provide Imperialist with a major trading bonus, but a bonus to construct the Custom Houses faster. It's just a thought...

In my opinion Imperialistic shouldn't be even MOSTLY a war trait. Imperial cities are wealthy, often they govern trade empires, or empires like rome that were gotten only partially through conquest, and partially via culture or diplomacy. What is important is that imperial civilizations have the wealth and arms to support such an empire. A glorious prosperous and well guarded one. Not just another dictatorship.

The trick is making the bonus apropriate without it being overpowered. Maybe less cost for soldiers, a bonus to science and espionage? Maybe a lessoned cost for vassals, though the only imperial civilization I can think of that really went in heavilly for vassals is England, and that partially backfired.

Imperial implies large and wealthy, but not necessarilly conquest. Large stable empires like china are as imperial as rome or england, and many people call america imperial these days even though we conquer nothing. Though I admit we interfere way too much for my taste (I'm an isolationist) but that would be espionage and diplomacy not conquest.

The thing is Firaxis is not going to dramatically change the trait. We need to come up with ideas that will slightly help Imperialist without changing the trait. The GG bonus and Settler bonus are not going to be removed, so we need to find small bonuses that accompany them. Thus, making Imperialist a mostly financial trait isn't going to happen.

I've never understood why there is a trait that reduces civic upkeep costs but not number-of-cities costs, which to me is what Imperialistic is.

Civ oddity: Imperialists are often self-defeating because they can expand faster than their economy can keep up.

All replies are useless. Firaxis haven't listened to this.:scan:

No, in BTS there are 3 types of City Maintenance
1. Distance
2. Number of Cities
3. Overseas

3 is the reason to form Colonies
1 is a reason to build FPs /Get State Property

2 INCLUDES Vassals and Colonies

so if you have a lot of cities (Either as part of your empire OR vassals of some kind) #2 will be high.

Where is this information from? I thought overseas maintenance costs just meant high distance costs made by the ocean between. Will overseas cities still have normal distance costs in addition to overseas maintenance? Wouldn't reduced overseas maintenance be bigger boost to Imperialistic, because it can't be reduced any other way except Ikhanda/Courthouse, if they work for overseas maintenance too. Does this mean that FP and Versailles don't give any help with Colonies?

Where is this information from? I thought overseas maintenance costs just meant high distance costs made by the ocean between. Will overseas cities still have normal distance costs in addition to overseas maintenance? Wouldn't reduced overseas maintenance be bigger boost to Imperialistic, because it can't be reduced any other way except Ikhanda/Courthouse, if they work for overseas maintenance too. Does this mean that FP and Versailles don't give any help with Colonies?

Info from the Info Center thread on colonies

Overseas Cities will cost Overseas maintenance, as long as you own them, FP+Verssailles won't help
By giving your overseas cities to your Vassal (ie Colony) you don't have to pay ANY maintenance on them anymore (although they increase the # cities Maintenance in your cities)

The idea is that
Distance Maintenance has all type of solutions (FP, Versailles, State Property)
Overseas Maintenance was put in so there would be a reason to use Colonies (the only solution)
Number cities maintenance is almost Impossible to "solve". because even your Vassal (including Colony, Capitulated, and Voluntary Vassals) cities add in to what it costs in your cities.

So Imperialistic would be ideal for reducing that, because it helps you maintain a large empire of yourself OR Vassals.

Jails+ Custom Houses would be good, to represent 'Meddling in others affairs' through espionage+trade

Besides those two though, I'd just stick with Fixing the previous bonuses.

Food+Hammer Bonuses for the Settler are absolutely necessary (because It basically is a bug like early versions of overflow were a bug)

Improving the use of GG would also be good (partially as an overall game fix)

Info from the Info Center thread on colonies

Overseas Cities will cost Overseas maintenance, as long as you own them, FP+Verssailles won't help
By giving your overseas cities to your Vassal (ie Colony) you don't have to pay ANY maintenance on them anymore (although they increase the # cities Maintenance in your cities)

The idea is that
Distance Maintenance has all type of solutions (FP, Versailles, State Property)
Overseas Maintenance was put in so there would be a reason to use Colonies (the only solution)
Number cities maintenance is almost Impossible to "solve". because even your Vassal (including Colony, Capitulated, and Voluntary Vassals) cities add in to what it costs in your cities.

So Imperialistic would be ideal for reducing that, because it helps you maintain a large empire of yourself OR Vassals.

Jails+ Custom Houses would be good, to represent 'Meddling in others affairs' through espionage+trade

Besides those two though, I'd just stick with Fixing the previous bonuses.

Food+Hammer Bonuses for the Settler are absolutely necessary (because It basically is a bug like early versions of overflow were a bug)

Improving the use of GG would also be good (partially as an overall game fix)

But how about Courthouses? Will they work with Overseas maintenance too, since they have this far worked with both Distance and NoC maintenance.

And there it was: "In addition to the regular maintenance costs, you will now also incur a significant additional cost for cities that aren't on the same continent as your capital." I guess I just didn't read that section after it was updated.

But how about Courthouses? Will they work with Overseas maintenance too, since they have this far worked with both Distance and NoC maintenance.


I'd imagine so, but courthouses are a Generic Solution

Organized already has the bonus to courthouses...

Always thought the Imperialistic trait ought to bring benefits to a capital. Essentially, the larger Empire you have, the larger the core cities can become relying on food from conquered provinces. It was the grain of Africa, Egypt and Sicily that brought Rome's population to one million people in the imperial age, nothing else. Esp. in classical and medieval eras, huge cities can only become huge cities by being able to maintain a parasitical relationship on other areas. So, Imperialistic could mean, maybe, +50 % food for capital (or +100% if that wouldn't be overpowered).

It makes sense for Imperialist to get a bonus to the capital, especially since the majority of the new Imperialist leaders had such centralized administrations in their capital. For example, the Roman Empire needed Rome to be considered the Roman Empire. Likewise, without Rome, the Byzantine Empire centralized its power in Constantinople and this city became the Eastern version of Rome. Suleiman of the Ottomans is another example of an Imperialist leader with the extensive powerful capital. But I do not know if the food bonus is the right idea either. Also, it will be difficult for any bonus given to the capital to remain balanced throughout different map sizes and different game speeds, so it will be hard to implement, and as a result, I think it's unlikely that we'll see it...

Interesting point about map sizes. Perhaps then a food bonus to the capital dependent on how many other cities are ruled from there. +1 or +2 (or something) food from each dependent city goes to capital. In large maps, there'd be a gigantic capital (surely appropriate) and on small ones a smaller capital. It may also encourage greater expansion, surely appropriate for an imperialistic civ. :goodjob:

+100% Great General 'Emergence'
+50% Faster Settler Production
0 costs to maintain vassals.
That would be a nice and appropriate addition as Imperialism is all about making milking others for profit.

I think that is a very good idea for a few reasons.
First because it provides a much needed bonus to the Imperialistic trait. While the half off jails or customs houses would be a good addition as well, I think they are a little limited in applicability. Genghis, Ögedei and Kublai Khan lacked customs houses (much less access to water) but the the golden Khanate DID have quite a few vassals.
Second because it is appropriate given the behavior of non-modern empires. Every empire from Rome to Britain profited from their vassal states whether through geographic access, resources or taxation. This would reflect that key relationship.
Lastly I think this gives Imperialistic leaders a powerful incentive to leverage their trait early and often. I can't tell you how excited I would be if the AI for Victoria started wars against underdeveloped overseas civilizations because, once conquered, they were very inexpensive to hold.

I wonder if there will ever be a "soft" or "market" imperialistic quality given to the game's leaders? I suppose that corporations will represent that to some degree. The modern day hegemonic influence the U.S., U.K. and (more generally) the West hold over the World's developing nations is definately non trivial element in global affairs. I would love to see that implemented formally in this game.

I don't like any improvement that will affect the game differently in single player than multi player, and I can't imagine (though I don't multi player) that many vassalages are formed between two human players.

Charismatic don't have cut price building's so what?

I don't like any improvement that will affect the game differently in single player than multi player, and I can't imagine (though I don't multi player) that many vassalages are formed between two human players.

A very good point! But I thought that human players at least CAN become vassals in multiplayer.

Or, you can just turn off Vassal States in the options menu when setting up the game, and there goes that bonus.

Right now, all the traits have utility no matter what you do in that options menu (with the exception of Always Peace, and even then, Charismatic still gives you happiness and Imperialistic quicker settlers). I would like to limit that, if at all possible, so I'd vote against improving Vassal States for Imperialistic. Giving a weak trait an improvement that can be turned off with a switch before the game begins doesn't strike me as a great fix.

Also, Charismatic doesn't have double production buildings because it already gives extra happiness (which, due to the longer lifespan of monuments in BtS, will be boosted) and improves your troops; in essence, it has two very strong abilities. Financial has only one ability (the commerce boost), but it is friggin' awesome, so it isn't too weak (I would still give them a double production building, though).

Financial has only one ability (the commerce boost), but it is friggin' awesome, so it isn't too weak (I would still give them a double production building, though).

I would give them Bank bonus back too, though it would make Elizabeth ultimately powerful with double-speed Universities and Stock Exchanges and other benefits of Philosophical and Financial.
It could instead of Bank bonus have Customs House bonus too, if it doesn't go to Imperialistic. Customs House would be maybe better because it doesn't help civ which has CH-based UB (Portugal).

I just thought that if Courthouses give reduce to overseas maintenance too, The HRE with its Rathaus unique buildings can become a huge overseas colony power, while it wasn't that in the real history (it had a few colonies, but not huge colonial empire like the British Empire).

Financial isn't so weak???????

Of course it isn't, its the strongest trait in the game by a mile. The extra commerce bonus is absolutely insane. If you play well you can use it to give yourself an extra 12-18 extra raw commerce per city, and you then have to double that to take into account all the different buildings. To give it half price banks would be insane. It would be like making catapults strength 6 - boosting something which is already far too strong.

Financial isn't so weak???????

Of course it isn't, its the strongest trait in the game by a mile. The extra commerce bonus is absolutely insane. If you play well you can use it to give yourself an extra 12-18 extra raw commerce per city, and you then have to double that to take into account all the different buildings. To give it half price banks would be insane. It would be like making catapults strength 6 - boosting something which is already far too strong.

I agree it is powerful, but I don't think it as the strongest, while it is one of the strongest. Maybe they could change it to +1 commerce from tiles producing 3+ commerce and give it Bank and Customs House bonuses. I think that would make it more balanced, what you others think about it?

Maybe they nerfed Catapults because they were, as you said, far too strong. Wouldn't that be reason to nerf also Financial trait?

Always thought the Imperialistic trait ought to bring benefits to a capital. Essentially, the larger Empire you have, the larger the core cities can become relying on food from conquered provinces. It was the grain of Africa, Egypt and Sicily that brought Rome's population to one million people in the imperial age, nothing else. Esp. in classical and medieval eras, huge cities can only become huge cities by being able to maintain a parasitical relationship on other areas. So, Imperialistic could mean, maybe, +50 % food for capital (or +100% if that wouldn't be overpowered).Maybe a +1 trade route in capital city for every x cities (including vassal cities).

I like the trade route idea. It's got potential. That could simulate all the trade within a vast unified empire, plus the "imperial city" I always think of. Incredibly wealthy and powerful cities sitting at the heart of the empires they rule.

I just thought that Imperialistic could be better war-trait if it would able more experience transfered in upgrade. The normal 10 could be 17 with Imperialistic civs (exactly one more level with non-Charismatic leaders). One of the abilities of Warlord is eliminating the limit, so it is related to yet existing Imperialistic bonus and makes all military units better. I don't think it would be too powerful, even if combined with a couple double-speed production buildings.

I think the trade route idea is very good too.

Financial isn't so weak???????

Of course it isn't, its the strongest trait in the game by a mile. The extra commerce bonus is absolutely insane. If you play well you can use it to give yourself an extra 12-18 extra raw commerce per city, and you then have to double that to take into account all the different buildings. To give it half price banks would be insane. It would be like making catapults strength 6 - boosting something which is already far too strong.

I was using a literary device known as hyperbole. Financial is a tough trait, to be sure, but I would rate a few others more highly. However, Financial is one of the easiest traits to use in terms of raw benefits. It takes a little more planning to utilize the Civic-switching goodness of Spiritual to its max effect, for example, or planning with your specialists to maximize the benefits of Philosophical and get the great people you want in particular periods of the game.

Financial isn't so weak???????

Of course it isn't, its the strongest trait in the game by a mile.

No it isn't. In the early game your much better off with Charismatic/ Philosophical/Expansive.. Unless you have goldmines or floodplains, in which case it's a cakewalk anyway.

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