No word from the lonely hearts club? Do people still want to play isolated starts?

Anyway, if there is interest I have an isolated start save for Roosevelt I can post tonight. The starting continent looks pretty promising - a lot more land than last time.

Edit: Here is the Savegame. Its a generous sized landmass (to make up for last time). I think Organized should do well. Good luck.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/91972/Rooseveltstart.JPG

I'm interested.... Did you have talked with willpax? He had been around, but strangely didn't started the LHC 4

Nope - hopefully he'll see the post and respond. I don't want to hijack the series from him. I was just missing my fix.

I would appreciate if the next save wasn't from 4000bc. It's silly to know from the start you are isolated, which makes grabbing early religions possible.

I'd also prefer to play Emperor than Monarch, but no sweat.

The trouble with that is that people have different playstyles. My approach to Roosevelt may be different that yours. By the time you find out its an isolated start you have committed several early techs and builds. I'd rather not start with someone else having already made some of the most critical early decisions.

I trust myself not to alter my early gameplay because I know in advance its an isolated start. My opening for Roosevelt in this game is very similar to the opening I used the last time I played him. But it might be very different from your opening.

Honestly I doubt I would start much differently knowing it was an isolated start anyway. I wouldn't rush towards an early religion, I'd want to secure military defenses against barbarians and optimize my leader traits with my early techs. Which wouldn't change just because I am isolated.

If you think there is something you would do in the first 50 turns or so only because its an isolated start (I can't think of anything), then just don't do that thing.

Emperor is OK with me. The save I have is Monarch though. If people prefer Emperor I can try and generate another map, or maybe you could start another thread and post an Emperor game. I'd play it (maybe after this one though).

I'm in as soon as you play one in Vanilla.

I'm also interested,4000 BC start is fine with me, as you said barbarians will keep you on your toes anyhow.I would slightly prefer emperor, somewhat more of a challenge.

I think there is a difference knowing you're isolated, i tend to build more warriors to fogbust and i don't build barracks concentrating on getting axes out as early as possible. In the end these are not gamebreaking choices though.

I think there is a difference knowing you're isolated, i tend to build more warriors to fogbust and i don't build barracks concentrating on getting axes out as early as possible. In the end these are not gamebreaking choices though.

By the time you do that though you usually know you are isolated. My usual first builds are worker then warrior slowly while I grow to size 2-3. If I haven't met anyone by the time I have built that second warrior, then I am definitely not going to be preparing for an axe rush. If I am not isolated then any other civs are a long way off.

Barbarians would be my immediate worry then whether isolated or just a long way away. So my priorities would be either great wall, fog busting or several early axes/chariots.

I agree that knowing its an isolated start isn't game-breaking. Decisions about early religion for me depend on a favourable start (mysticism and a commerce tile). Usually you'll find out you're isolated about 2500-2000bc depending on size of landmass.

In terms of level I'm fairly comfortable on monarch and thinking about moving up to emperor (though I'll probably get bts and see how I handle improved AI).

OK, lets begin. Save posted above. I'll start a new thread for Emperor. No reason why we can't have two going at once - I'll play both and probably alternate.

I'm interested.... Did you have talked with willpax? He had been around, but strangely didn't started the LHC 4

My apoogies: I generated a save with Roosevelt, but haven't posted due to a busy week this week and a vacation week (without computer) next week. But this one looks much better.

I won't be able to do much playing until 8 July. What I has thinking abut doing was breaking it down into stages:

1. Intitial exploration and taking stock of available resources. How much happy, health, strategic resources; agricultural potential, and so on. It might be nice to get some discussion about what things people look for to help them decide on a development strategy, so if people would be so kind as to post some sort of spoiler discussion about what they play to do after they've seen the whole island, that might help us better understand things.

2. Some sort of assessment around 1000-1200 AD, which is close to first contact in most games. How well is the economy doing? What is working well or poorly in this moment right before you make contact?

3. Some discussion of early trading and diplomacy. As InvisibleStalke has pointed out, isolation gives you an advantage in the diplomacy game--how do you handle it?

4. The final stage is much more conventional playing out of the position and endgame, and, as such, is less interesting to our purposes except to validate or complicate the early decisions.

So, when I get around to playing these games, I'll try to follow this general pattern. With Roosevelt, a basic decision will involve wonder-building, I'm sure.

@ Invisiblestalk, Indeed, no reason not to have 2 threads:goodjob:. I'll also try them both.
@Willpax, Probably a good idea to break the game down in stages just as in the "calling ce enthousiasts" thread. To follow a report that spans
a whole game is a bit much at once.

Good to see you, willpax !

Maybe i'll try both ( the emperor start is promissing), but it will take some time ( and this week and the next one are of lots of work to me :mad: )

About Roosy.... I'm not very keen of wonder building in isolation ( as I already stated in the other LHCs ) besides Oracle ( for Monarchy or Metal casting ) and maybe GW ( more for the GE poitns than anything else ).

About the start: it's a nice one. My hint is to settle in place.

How does this work? Do we each play our own game and compare?

With the 4th of July coming up, I was planning on playing America soon. I could try this one.

Exactly, budweiser. Welcome to LHC, by the way ;)

vvn start imho. several early wonders should be baggable especially if stone and/or marble nearby. stone would be outstanding for gw/pyramids so you don't have to worry about military at all.

i'm thinking organized = 4 early cities

industrious = some early wonders (stonehenge + oracle in one city; gw would be nice even if no stone; and parthenon should be no problem since the ai delays it). toa would be nice if marble present. gl is a no brainer imho.

cultural victory i think is the way to go here.

I would research AH 1st and build a worker for this map.

Then I dont know what. Since we know its isolated, then we have to deal with barbs somehow. I'm not sure how long to put that off vs teching towards pottery and writing (I like to lightbulb math). Meanwhile, After that I would go for Oracle/Col to leveage our cheap courthouses for even more cities.

The thing for this game I think is to see which wonders help us and which are a waste of time.

My vote and gameplan are:

- Great wall - great for an isolated start. And "ABigCivFan"s games on Immortal have convinced me it is pretty good for non-isolated too.
- Pyramids - I plan to run a hybrid using representation for happiness and research to allow me to expand rapidly. Later switch to cottages.
- Oracle - early COL will be powerful.
- Stonehenge - free culture for my organized REX rush.
- Great Library - you know why.
- University of Sankore - extra research from lots of cities.

Any others are opportunistic depending on resources.

I am going to play for domination - mainly because I think Roosevelt should be awesome in the modern age. Navy Seals are great and I plan on having awesome production and the ability to sustain a huge empire.

parthenon will be easy to pick up and it's a great, though underappreciated, wonder.

Checkpoint system
------------------

I'd like to propose we check in at the following checkpoints (using spoiler tags as we aren't all playing at the same speed). Posting saves is helpful, but not essential.

Checkpoint 1 - when we have explored the island and are aware of what resources it has. Its not so important when this is, but this is a time to discuss city sites etc. Don't look into a checkpoint 1 spoiler until you have reached this point yourself.

Checkpoint 2 - first contact - when we have met all the other AIs. At this point we can discuss our strategy to get to this point and our plans for dealing with them.

Checkpoint 3 - when we are committed to a victory condition (or at least think we are).

Checkpoint 4 - Victory (or defeat).

If you disagree please let me know.

Checkpoint 1 - when we have explored the island and are aware of what resources it has. Its not so important when this is, but this is a time to discuss city sites etc. Don't look into a checkpoint 1 spoiler until you have reached this point yourself.



In terms of techs that means BW + AH or should wait until IW ( sometimes I postpone that one for a long time ) ?

Just trying to clarify.....

I dont want to spoil anything, I have a 3000BC save and a 2000BC save. So I guess I have already decided where to put some cites.

But I still lack a general direction for the game and havent explored the whole island yet.

Whoops, wrong thread.

My first checkpoint. 50BC


http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/91972/Lonely_Roosevelt_BC-0050.CivWarlordsSave

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/91972/roosevelt50bc.JPG

Things going pretty well I think. I should have GL soon, after which I'll run more scientists and up the tech rate. I'll probably get Org religion (goes nicely with industrious) and head for metal casting afterwards. I will probably delay Civil service - not such a priority with my capital as a GP farm.

My next priority is REX. I am organized, have COL - time to settle the whole continent. Build cottages everywhere. I am planning a hybrid economy where I will get extra research from scientists - hence libraries, but the long term goal is to run Emancipation and have the capital as my GP farm. Capital will get Ironworks + National Epic.

The continent is pretty good. Lots of good city locations. Unfortunately the stone and marble weren't worth settling by early. Or at least so I though. I still got Oracle, Pyramids, Great Wall, hopefully Great Library. Might still be able to get Parthenon. Great Lighthouse and Temple of Artemis are gone though. Getting the collosus might be possible though.

Liberalism and early astronomy isn't really my goal - its economic strength. I am playing for a late game domination attempt so now the priority is good cities and lots of them.

2000 BC



Reasearch
AH first, revealed horses to the south.
Warrior popped Hunting.
Mining – Wheel – BW
3000 BC was thinking of settling 2nd city to the west and building GW.

Build order was worker, warrior, warrior, settler.

2720 BC - warrior pops Sailing.
2440 BC - BW is in, went Pottery, Writing. I end up sending my first settler south to get the horses. NY City is on the grass tile directly north of the horses. It will have some hills to the east for hammers and a grass/river running north for food.

Boston went five tiles west and then one north of Washington, missing bronze in any of my first sities. That’s OK, I have chariots.

2000 BC – I have 3 cities, 1 chariot, and am 4 turns from writing. I also picked up a scout down south from a hut. I also have a barbarian city sitting to my SE. It worries me a bit. I still have no real direction. I probably should try and build something soon since I am industrious. Just not sure which way to commit.

Budweiser:

I can recommend the Great wall. You can REX without worrying about barbarians - instead they just become virtual settlers as you can take their cities later.

My 1000AD update (no saves or pics):

Just got optics - and an AI found me. Much later than in past games - no civil service to power research since my capital is a GP farm. I have build university of sankore though and just missed collossus.

I have 11 cities though which was my goal in REXing. I'm very happy with the continent and the cities. Now they can grow and I should be tech trading soon.

Update at 1640 AD (contains spoilers re other AIs)

Hannibal was sniffing around just as I got optics, so I didn't really win that race. I finished REXing the continent and headed towards liberalism. Burnt a scientist on education and self researched the rest. Then I took a gamble and traded education to get philosophy and some other techs. It meant that Saladin also had the prereqs for Liberalism. Luckily I beat him to it. And beat HC by one turn I think (since I couldn't trade Liberalism to him). Took Astronomy.

The AI situation allows me to trade with everyone. HC is teching like crazy and has vassalized Hannibal who is a great trade partner. Saladin trades freely with me even though I have a different religion - opening the trading with a gift was enough to do it. Possibly we shared favorite civics too. Napoleon is my best friend. He vassalized Wang Kon and later I bribed him into war with HC. I'll keep doing this as much as I can. He's behind in tech so as long as he doesn't look my way it should be possible.

Ramses was also isolated. And close. What an attractive target. I teched to Chemistry, built some galleons and invaded. Everything went well and he is now totally destroyed which has given me some good land. Went steel next and then headed towards democracy and then communism.

My war civics were nationalism and theology. I mass drafted around 20 musketmen as my second wave. First my grenadiers took his closest city and I culture bombed it. Then I held for a few turns while my second wave arrived. The incoming musketmen were able to take over the city defense roles while my grenadiers continued the assault. Once I added cannon he was absolutely history.

At this point I would describe my economy as a true hybrid. I have a lot of cottages, but for a long time I was also running scientists in libaries. Its about to become a cottage powerhouse though.

I have switched to emancipation. And will get a lot of new cottages online soon from my egypt conquests. I am a couple of turns from communism and around four turns from the SOL - although I am worried that I might miss that and the Kremlin - HC got those techs long before and is at least four techs up on me.

If I get SOL, then I will stay in representation, switch to state property, free speech and org religion. If not I will switch to democracy also.

I have ironworks in my capital plus several settled engineers and priest. My build time for SOL was 10 turns.

Once I get communism, I am heading straight to assembly line and then industrialization. I expect to have the GDP lead and production lead with my new territories. Eventually I plan to launch a massive invasion against HC - who will probably be engaged in the space race by then. Hopefully Napoleon will join in.

Update at 1832


Its pretty much going according to plan except I am attacking Saladin not HC. HC looked a bit ambitious before I had bombers and having a vassal on the mainland will help a lot. Also Saladin broke his defensive pact with me to attack my good friend Napoleon in the back. That must be punished!

Sent an advance wave of 20 cannon plus some defenders to just wait in HC's area next to Saladin. Teched to industrialism, turned of science and rush bought tanks and seals. Sent around 25 of them as the second wave and attacked when they arrived.

I don't have much of a tech edge - HC has already built Apollo and several casings - it will be a race between his space efforts and my military ones. But I am first in Power now and have 3 airports to drop units in every turn.

I've taken four of Saladins cities including his capital. SEALS are ridiculously good for taking coastal cities. Which is just as well - taking out Saladin's CG3 infantry takes a fair bit of effort. Planes are tremendously helpful though. I've been using fighters to weaken the top defenders and I'll have bombers soon.

I scored the SOL - probably just. Missed the Kremlin, and got the Pentagon. It takes my capital 5 turns to build wonders like rock and roll, so I'll pick up a few of them for extra happiness.

War weariness is starting to take a hold, but I have police state in reserve and built a lot of jails in advance so I don't expect it to be a big problem. I haven't even raised the culture slider yet.

The final war with HC will be the true test - he is second in Power. If he gets mech infantry it will be very interesting. Of course I could probably easily backstab Napoleon who won't have tanks and bombers, but attacking HC will be much more fun. Might even go for the nuclear option.

Domination victory in 1888, 56k points.

And I was ONE TURN from a conquest victory - when one of my vassals plonked down another city. My last opponent had just started talking. Hadn't reached capitulation, but I was about to take two of his last four cities and drop eight nukes on the remaining two. I think that would probably quell him into submission.

Roosevelt is so powerful for modern war. My stack of doom for attacking the last opponent was 60 units. Plus I had a fleet of destroyers and SEALs that sailed along the coastline demolishing a coastal city every turn or two. SEALS are fantastic units - a CG3 SEAL airlifted into a conquered city can fight off almost anything and combat 2 + pinch SEALS are great city raiders. With March they just keep going and going.

I won this game through sheer weight of production and military. I learned a few things about modern warfare too:

1) The power of a coastal task force. Enough destroyers to bombard defenses. A few cannon for collateral damage and marines/seals to destroy the city. Sailing along the coastline razing every coastal city drops their power very quickly.

2) The power of multiple airports airlifting in CG3 defenders and more attack troops.

3) The power of a fast moving tank/gunship stack supported by bombers. (Well I knew this one already).

4) The power of a cottage economy with 0% science in late game war. On the very turn I built the Manhattan project I rush built 8 nukes. Leading up to the war I was building 5-6 SEALS or tanks a turn through normal production and rushbuying.

5) The need for lots of backup troops in a modern war. Previously I have lost a lot of units due to enemy counter attacks. But having big attack stacks followed by big city defense stacks detered counter attacks.

6) The usefulness of Marines for detering artillery. Not only are they good at fighting artillery, but you seem to get a lot less artillery attacks against you when they are defending your stacks.

7) The usefulness of fighters - definitely still worth building before you have bombers.

8) Not to fear mech infantry - two of my opponents did get to mech infantry during my war with them - I never got beyond tanks/seals/gunships/bombers. But overwhelming numbers and collateral damage take them down too.

Domination victory in 1888, 56k points.

From an isolated start! Well done!

I like your point about a coastal attack stack. I had the same thought recently and it's nice to hear it is very successful.

Your capital sounds sick :lol: 10 turns for SoL :lol:

My capital was sick - it wasn't even running bureaucracy. Late game wonders were taking five turns. Good starting position + settled priest and engineers + ironworks. I love the National Epic + Ironworks in your capital combo for Industrious. On Monarch its my favorite trait (not necessarily most powerful, but most fun!). Switch between production for wonders and specialists in the early game running scientists. Late game run engineers for an incredibly productive city.

I'll agree with budweiser, and I think it'll be easier to do years.

I've played to when I got civil service, a little after 200, but I'll stick with my 2000 BC save here:

Got two cities, three in a few turns. Getting some cottages up. My first city went 5W and 1N, which is 1SE of the cow. Haven't built any wonders at this point, but I'll talk a little about the wonders I built at Invisible Stalke's checkpoint system.

Haven't built any wonders at this point, but I'll talk a little about the wonders I built at Invisible Stalke's checkpoint system

You don't really need to hide comments about your success and progress in spoilers. Just comments about the strategic resources and who and where the AIs are in case that affects the starting play of other players.

Welcome to the game.

I've played to 1550 ish. Heres the low-down

I was first to liberalism in about 1040 AD IIRC. I put it off for a little while an got astronomy with it. I met hannibal and Nappy by that point (they found me), and I traded philosophy and paper to them to get up to optics for the astronomy jump. I started building catas while researching engineering->chemistry. I sent in a nice stack and easily marched through Ramses. I misjudged it by a little when I attacked Elphantine and his capital on same turn- I took elphantine and was 1 unit short of his capital :mad:. My plan was just to take those two and make him capitulate- the rest wasn't really worht it. He retook elphantine and got acouple people into his capital. I didn't have the guys to retake either city so I made him capitulate. During the war, I also didn't send in reinforcements as I felt it was enough. I guess one pikeman at .2 health proved me wrong. I'm the tech leader or atleast am with HC.

Right now I'm planning to do a domination via capitulation of the other people. I could end up going for space race though.

It's very late here and to be honest i'm a bit tired, played the game yesterday to get research going as soon as possible,i've played to 1200 ad and have a big decision to make now:

1. go from printing press right on to computers/genetics my tech lead is already huge, with constitution, demo and sol i might break my earliest space vic (1808 immortal 18 civs).

2. The others are so backward though that an domination vic is not out of the question(Ramesses is pathetic but has lot of good developed land) i have to make the decision now, space means scientific method, physics,electricity, radio etc, domination means nationalism, mil trad, steel asap and a lot of hours playing.

I'll have a hard look at he game at this point, think i'll try dom but it'll take time to play it right.

I played a little more and........

I hate war. I teched democracy, traded for rifles with HC, and teched steel. As I teched steel, I drafted riflemen and built a couple more catas. When I got steel, I built the cannons I needed and upgraded my newly built catapults and my older catapults. I declared war on Hannibal, because his capital was nice and juicy on the coast. I easily took it on the 2nd turn of the war (1rst turn was landing). He ran off and became a vassel of Napoleon. I held on for acouple turns, but Napoleon took Carthage, raized it, and killed just about all my troops. I think I'll just head for a space race now. I don't expect a naval invasion to come before I can make peace, but I am starting to hurt. I'm still fine in tech- all I need to do is be able to make peace and make a spaceship. Won't be pretty win and will be late. Here was the start of the war

You can always reestablish your tech lead and come back for your nemesis when you have SEALs. It would be a shame to have a totally peaceful space win. How about this:

Assemble a task force of 6 destroyers and maybe a battleship or two, plus 6 transports containing 6 cannon and 18 SEALS (with pinch promotion).

Declare war, sailing along his costal cities. Drop the defenses on each city with the warships, throw in a cannon for collateral and then hit it with SEALS until you are done. Raze the city. Repeat all the way down his coastline. He cannot launch an invasion to reply. If you can spy out where his transports are and hit that first even better.

True, true, just that I've never really done modern warfare. I think it'll be easier to just go ahead and win by spacerace.

Finnaly I got time to play ( completely crazy week )

So :

300 BC (http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/91629/Lonely_Roosevelt_BC-0300.CivWarlordsSave)
200 AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/91629/Lonely_Roosevelt_AD-0200.CivWarlordsSave)
1510 AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/91629/Lonely_Roosevelt_AD-1510.CivWarlordsSave)
1956 AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/91629/Lonely_Roosevelt_AD-1956.CivWarlordsSave)

Sorry for the absence of the 1st encounter save ( circa 1000 AD ) and the one from the time I commited to a victory type ( circa 1650 AD ), but I played til 4 am and was very sleepy.

Discussion (in spoiler because ther's still people that will play the game , like willpax)

Started with a wonder fest: Henge, GW, Oracle , Collosus and Great Lighthouse. Had the luck of popping 2 techs from huts ( Myst and :eek: Metal Casting ( that allowed me to Oracle Machinery ) ) and to have a early gems mine pop in my 3rd city ( extra :) with the forges ) ReXed like a mad mad to the southeast ( west and north had feeble land ). Used a GE to get GL and got Tao with a GS. Was researching CS when Ramesses found me, followed by the Inca shorthly after. Got Lib and Natio at the sound of born and deceased GG ( later I discovered that Nappy had a war with HC and later with Wang , which he vassalised ). I decided that I had a solid base for a space race and beelined Computers ( I thinked that a space race against 3 Fin civs and a Ind one would be fun :crazyeye: ). When I got it ( even before Assembly line ), the free fin civs and Ramesses were already building thrusters and Nappy was warring Saladin ( that capitulated soon ). Seeing that I could be beaten both by space race ( Hannibal had the 5 casings and 2 thrusters when I started Apollo ) as by UN ( the candidates were Ramesses ( when in my games the guy always build it ) and Nappy (Han was pleased with Nappy and the vassals voted for him in the first count )). I take the shortest route ( like we say in Portuguese : Matar dois coelhos com uma cajadada só ( to kill two rabbits with only a bat move ) ) : bribed nappy to war HC and Han ( was cheap: Medicine ). And in the middle of the sound of trumphets, rising and fall of GG and some ICBM launches ( Han on Nappy ) I finished my space ship while $rushing ICBM and upgrading units ( just in case i needed to make a landing to stop a space ship launch )

What I should had done

I'm happy with the game until my decision to go to space. In retrospective, seeing how I could be $rushing a nuke every turn in the end of the game, maybe I could had got easily a dom victory far earlier. But well, what is done is done and one more star in my LHC path ( far easier than the Elizabeth one, I must confess :p )


@ all the participants of LHCs

There has been some requests of lower dificulties LHCs, so maybe in the next LHC we should make a map and set various levels of dificulty ( from maybe Noble to maybe Emperor/Immortal ( its easy to do that: just get a isolated save, go to the WB, save it as a WB save and load it: It will ask for the dificulty level. From there make the necessary copies ) .
And someone have a idea for the next leader? Until now we have played leaders with traits that we hope that will help us to cope isolation ( except the agressive trait of Shaka ( that was virtually non tested because no one tried a Dom victory out of that ( a shame IMHO : the map was very good for Dom ))). Maybe we should try something more exotic: maybe a Char or a Spiritual leader. Opinions?

Edit : I found this (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=167669) tool to change saved games without going to WB. Maybe can be helpful

With Roosevelt, my thinking is that I will try to build the Great Wall fairly early as a barbarian defense system so that I can work on more rapid expansion and Oracle-driven research.

My initial explorations confirmed a large neighborhood with some good resources (although the stone was fairly far away), and, once I got a warrior to the south (my scouts proved way too fragile), I confirmed the isolated start. My exploration was insanely productive in terms of research--I popped hunting, sailing, and writing from goody huts.

Resources: all three seafood health (although scattered), as well as cow, sheep, rice, and wheat--what a tasty little island we have here! However, there aren't the tremendous concentrations of food specials that scream "make me a specialist city" in any particular place.

Happy resources: silver in a decent location to the east, wine everywhere (giving me a double happy bonus from monarchy). If I can grab Confucianism, I should be set to grow some decent sized cities early on.

Land: the best land seems to be southeast, under jungle. It will take me a while to settle down that direction, anyway. Lots of rivers, which is good for either broad economy type.

I'm thinking cottage spam will be my plan, possibly fueled by Great Lighthouse and coastal cities. The good agricultural land being farther away plays a role in this decision, as well as the goodly number of health resources allowing for lots of larger cities. The capital will be the best GP farm for a while, but I can get another running in a while. My goal, after some initial wonder building, will be to settle the continent and grow the economy, hopefully leading to me having tech parity (and economic parity) around first contact. That's the hope, anyway.


http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/95757/Lonely_Roosevelt_BC-1080.CivWarlordsSave

@ all the participants of LHCs

There has been some requests of lower dificulties LHCs, so maybe in the next LHC we should make a map and set various levels of dificulty ( from maybe Noble to maybe Emperor/Immortal ( its easy to do that: just get a isolated save, go to the WB, save it as a WB save and load it: It will ask for the dificulty level. From there make the necessary copies ) .
And someone have a idea for the next leader? Until now we have played leaders with traits that we hope that will help us to cope isolation ( except the agressive trait of Shaka ( that was virtually non tested because no one tried a Dom victory out of that ( a shame IMHO : the map was very good for Dom ))). Maybe we should try something more exotic: maybe a Char or a Spiritual leader. Opinions?


I love the idea of having the same map played and being able to select your difficulty level. If we can post noble/prince/monarch/emperor versions (does anyone really want to play an immortal isolated start?) it would be great.

What about Brennus?

What about Brennus?

Brennus traits are excelent for war, but Cha and Spi have their uses in isolation and they don't lose steam as more modern ages came ( they will still be useful for a late Dom/ conquest victory ). About the UU ... meh, and the UB :mad: ( IMHO the worst of Warlors ). But will be a fun leader to try , most surely.

I would still build the GS early and use them to secure the continent. With the cha bonus they can still pick up a few promos (like guerilla III) which will carry over for future upgrades.

I've gotten so many isolated starts on my own lately, I'm starting to feel cursed. I always want to push for sea exploration at the expense of liberalism and I think its always the wrong choice.

Well, I was merrily plugging along building settlers, courthouses, granaries, and missionaries (using a Confucian shrine to keep my research rate at no lower than 70% despite the expansion). I feel pretty good--I was into eductation, leaving philosophy for a lightbulb I hoped to get soon, and filling up the continent as shown:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/95757/LonelyFDR1120map.jpg

When, in 1120, up pops Huayna Capac, who has been madly teching and has at least eight techs on me (he already has education, so I don't know what he may have beyond that). It seems that the rapid expansion has been eating into my economy too much. Most of the techs are low-level techs I have bypassed, so trading should catch me up quickly--if I have anything worth trading once I encounter the other AIs. But I think my isolation strategy wasn't good enough. I have around 100 total beakers with my poorly developed cottages, and only a handful of cities near their caps. The cottageable south was last to be developed (I still plan on planting two more cities), and I should have probably made it first.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/95757/Lonely_Roosevelt_AD-1120.CivWarlordsSave

I played this until 1880 Ad now, i took out Ramesses, Huyna and WangKon sofar. I have 45% of the land, have to take out Saladin or Hannibal/Napoleon next. I can do this from the base i have now where i have some 25 bombers and 60 other units but it might be more fun to do it the way Invisible Stalk described, boats filled with navy seals accompanied by bombing destroyers.

I noticed that if you go domination it's better to plan for it in advance. I played till 1200 ad, then decided to go domination, i had to build /draft all the units needed ,i had no globe theater so i had to draft from quite a few cities and had to put the core cities to work now to build the units. If i'd go domination from the start i'd have build cities even sooner and i would have started building cats and maces in them. I could then have upgraded around 1200-1300 by putting science to 0 for a time. Ironically i won the economics race but i had only 4 axes and 10 military police warriors without promotions to upgrade.

With all this drafting i managed to get Ramesses down 1660 AD which seemed a reasonable time, my empire was really an unhappy shambles after that and it took to +/- 1800 before cities had regrown. Took to 1850 to get the last needed tech (flight) then invaded, others AI's were not to helpful trading techs.

Tried this scenario twice and got my arse kicked Lol

First time got into a war with Huayana Crapac then the second time around Tardpoleon declared and although he hasn't penetrated once it's really putting a hurt on my research and huyana is well underway to a space victory yet again!



I don't know how you do it especially when you're isolated. So far I haven't seen any strategy for Warlords and Isolated starts.

@ Glassoid

As you can see we are still testing ideas, but I would say:

1- Focus on the economical techs ( CS , currency and maybe Calendar ), develop your land and run away from the temptation of beelining Optics for contacting other civs ( your economy will be in far worse shape in the contact moment than if you developed better )
2-Make a sustainable REX ( 50/60 % ) and pick the best spots ( you'll have time until the others grab Astro ). Look eagerly for good cottagable land and/or nice food sites for specialists.
3- You need big cities to balance your isolation. HR is a good friend. You'll also need all the :health: you can get. Do not overwhip ( maybe only whipping settlers and workers and a ocasional building )
4- Unless you want to go cultural ( and maybe even there.... ), found only 1/2 religions top . You'll want a more religious divided world ( more wars, less tech trading, possibility of a backdoor for a later invasion.... ), it protects you better
5- Beeline Liberalism. Even if you loose the race, Free religion helps with the research and puts you under the radar scope of the AI ( you'll not have the religion minuses , so less probabilities on a war)
6- Prepare a defensive fleet ASAP ( self explainable )
7-Forget your pride and cave in to the AI demands ( you'll be probably weak until the Industrial age, so don't mess too much around ). Even worse, give the AI all of your spare resourses or trade them. Get friends, but always try to stir a war overseas.
8- If you survived this far, now is a good time to think how to win. IF you have a nice chunk of good land, Diplo may be a solution ( big population ). Space may be a nice idea too (in that case beeline computers and spam labs; Internet is a good help too). Or you can take a tour de force and try a late Dom victory ( tech until the desired unit, shut down research and $rush (US is your friend ). Numbers over quality )
9- Enviromentalism is your friend in isolation ( you'll need big cities and in isolation :health: is your limitating factor ( remember that HR allows you unlimited :) and that there are much more ways to :) than to :health: in Civ IV )
10- Nukes are your friend too ( maybe you'll need to stop a launch in extremis )

There are no wonders that are needed to win in isolation ( some will help, but they would help too in non isolated starts : Henge, GW ,Pyramids, GL,.... ). In fact, probably you won't have even a chance of trying to build some ( like most of the medieval ones ) :Normally it is better to focus in more/better cities than in wonder races.

This is just a catch up of the LHCs so far. I hope it helps ( and everyone is free to add something I could had forgotten of course ;) )

P.S Maybe someone should write something in the Srategy Articles section about what was learned so far in the LHCs. Volunteers?

@ Glassoid

As you can see we are still testing ideas, but I would say:

1- Focus on the economical techs ( CS , currency and maybe Calendar ), develop your land and run away from the temptation of beelining Optics for contacting other civs ( your economy will be in far worse shape in the contact moment than if you developed better )

True, col and especially civil service are essential whatever you do. Calender depends on the map. I usually don't research currency that early, the extra domestic trade route doesn't do it for me. Non isolated currency gives you the possibility to get (a lot of) money from others, not now.



2-Make a sustainable REX ( 50/60 % ) and pick the best spots ( you'll have time until the others grab Astro ). Look eagerly for good cottagable land and/or nice food sites for specialists.

Very important, you won't conquer neighbours anytime soon so you'll have to do all the hard work yourself. The sooner you start with this the longer these cities have time to grow to something worthwhile. I think it's worth it to sacrifice some research for this purpose. See also invisible stalks approach in this thread, he went domination and set all his cards on rex not caring too much about research rates or liberalism with very good results. I did some rexing like this in the lonely fred thread, was behind but caught up surprisingly easy when all astro got in and alll my cities picked up trade routes like no tomorrow.


3- You need big cities to balance your isolation. HR is a good friend. You'll also need all the :health: you can get. Do not overwhip ( maybe only whipping settlers and workers and a ocasional building )

HR is always good but in normal games it's always delicate where you'll want these units (HR or attack) , isolated it's even better, if possible avoid hunting, i popped it from a hut this game :thumbsdown:, i immediately stopped connecting the copper to get some warriors build.


4- Unless you want to go cultural ( and maybe even there.... ), found only 1/2 religions top . You'll want a more religious divided world ( more wars, less tech trading, possibility of a backdoor for a later invasion.... ), it protects you better

Absolutely, you need one religion for happiness ,try to actively avoid founding the others. they're almost useless.


5- Beeline Liberalism. Even if you loose the race, Free religion helps with the research and puts you under the radar scope of the AI ( you'll not have the religion minuses , so less probabilities on a war)

This is where monarch and emperor+ differ for me. At Monarch sure go for it and take astro from it,wait with machinery till you can lightbulb liberalism to 1 turn, do it then research machinery, optics and take astro.
I have my doubts on emperor+ as you can see i and also Invisible stalk lost lib race in the lonely fred game, ok it came ridiculously early in that game but it will always be a bit of a gamble since you have to research so much yourself and also have to have a sound rex which will cost you research, we'll have to play emp+ isolated games i feel to come to a conclusive answer, right now i feel go to CS (you can't do without), then turn around and go to astro.Research bonus from FR is not that substantial but relations are so i tend to FR as soon as i meet the others.


6- Prepare a defensive fleet ASAP ( self explainable )

Frankly i never do this when i intend space, i'll trust on my diplomatic skills there, if there is a Monty out there that i can't bribe i'll watch for the "enough on our hands warning", i can always build a fleet then


7-Forget your pride and cave in to the AI demands ( you'll be probably weak until the Industrial age, so don't mess too much around ). Even worse, give the AI all of your spare resourses or trade them. Get friends, but always try to stir a war overseas.

All true and important, i sell all my resources also for gpt.The supplied us with resources modifier takes some time to kick in but it can be the difference between a civ being pleased/cautious with you which is essential. I give in to every remotely reasonable demand (though not to demands on monopoly techs)


8- If you survived this far, now is a good time to think how to win. IF you have a nice chunk of good land, Diplo may be a solution ( big population ). Space may be a nice idea too (in that case beeline computers and spam labs; Internet is a good help too). Or you can take a tour de force and try a late Dom victory ( tech until the desired unit, shut down research and $rush (US is your friend ). Numbers over quality )

I found out playing this game that domination means planning ahead (even before you meet the others).



9- Enviromentalism is your friend in isolation ( you'll need big cities and in isolation :health: is your limitating factor ( remember that HR allows you unlimited :) and that there are much more ways to :) than to :health: in Civ IV )

I don't like environmentalism, it precludes Free market or State property which are both huge civics. I suggest when going space beeline directly to electricity/radio/computers, then research refrigeration and genetics and the health problems are gone.


10- Nukes are your friend too ( maybe you'll need to stop a launch in extremis )

I have no idea here, never used nukes , they're a bit too extreme for me:lol: .

There are no wonders that are needed to win in isolation ( some will help, but they would help too in non isolated starts : Henge, GW ,Pyramids, GL,.... ). In fact, probably you won't have even a chance of trying to build some ( like most of the medieval ones ) :Normally it is better to focus in more/better cities than in wonder races.

Agreed, Colossus is cheap but you're cities are so small by the time you build it that they don't profit fully. It's obsoleted by astro and you'll have this tech asap when isolated. This wonder can be effective when financial though.

This is just a catch up of the LHCs so far. I hope it helps ( and everyone is free to add something I could had forgotten of course ;) )

P.S Maybe someone should write something in the Srategy Articles section about what was learned so far in the LHCs. Volunteers?

You do it :goodjob:


This a very good review of the importantant points concerning isolation Rolo, so i wrote my comments below yours, concerning the lib race, it depends imo on monarch or emperor+.

A couple of comments on the above (which is an excellent summary).

Completely agree that Astronomy is THE key tech and going for liberalism on Monarch only.

I have some thoughts on a Defensive fleet. You have no zone of control and I'm not good enough to micro manage it normally. But having a couple of caravels stationed outside their lands and seeing if they are building lots of transports is pretty useful. Then you can shadow their fleet and try and intercept it with one single big fleet of your own, rather than trying to wall your island with ships.

One thing I've learned is that the AIs like to invade your tiny islands. They must count the number of defenders on the island and see that this island is underdefended and they invade there. It might be possible to sacrifice a tiny island - withdraw most of your troops from it. Let them land a killer stack, and then kill their transports, isolating the stack on the island.

Diplomatic skills are your best friends for surviving. Keep your opponents and friends fighting each other and make sure that your enemies never get a long rest period to consider invading you. Don't neglect your military completely though. I had a game where I had a four way defensive pact and Cathy still decided to attack me - which turned into a pretty fatal move as Mansa and the others gobbled half her territory.

That looks like a very good start to such an article--anything else would just be elaboration and explanation of these well stated core points. Good work, folks.

Thanks for the vote of trust, Dirk ( it was a vote of trust or a slight irony? Still deciding.... :lol: ) . I'm thinking seriously on getting that article done ( we already have a thing or two to say, in spite of the merits of the lib race on emperor are still being discussed ( IMHO needs another game test ) and my personal belief that Optics beeline can be a viable route in Prince- ( needs a game test too) ) but I'm out of time now ( maybe I'll start this weekend on it. By the way, anyone has some kind of trouble on having their save used as a example ( good or bad ) ? ). So I would apreciate any kind of input of the participants on the LHCs ( all of them, even the quiet ones ( LHC 4 ( Monarch and Emperor versions) have +3000 views. I doubt that all of them are from the posters.... )
Thanks in advance to all.

Irony is always lurking r_rolo1 but not in this case, it was a good write up and imo you're fully qualified to write the article. Of course there are things we haven't touched on yet here as for instance Invisible stalk's idea of having spy caravel's on the other continent's borders to see if lot's of galleons/transports are build, if this coincides with "enough on our hands" you'll know what's going to happen.

I think the article shouldn't be rushed since BTS is near and this may obsolete some of our observations sofar. Also the question of lib or optics hasn't been resolved fully and it is crucial. Then again we can always make a start and build on it from there.

On Monarch I think you can get both - first to Optics and first to Liberalism. On Emperor you have a choice of first to Astronomy (safe - pretty much guaranteed) and first to Liberalism (you may not make it). The benefits of Astronomy for fixing your economy and the earlier tech trading with Optics to me outweigh the one single tech that you get from Liberalism.

Astronomy is a great trade tech - you can probably get as much for it as Liberalism + whatever you took from it.

The other factor is early Optics. The reason this is important is that you will get tech trading with all the AIs sooner and be able to assess the diplomatic situation. Otherwise you might start trading with Mansa when he sends his single caravel out but not know he is Shaka's worst enemy. Also the techs you trade to the first to discover you may get trading by them to everyone else meaning you only get a handful of techs. By meeting everyone first you can trade the same techs with 3-4 AIs and get a lot more value.

Lost the space race to Huayna Capac, 1933:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/95757/Lonely_Roosevelt_AD-1933.CivWarlordsSave

About 1600, I decided that I wasn't teching fast enough to catch up to Capac on a peaceful continent, so I decided to go for a military buildup, starting with an invasion of Egypt. The first landing (with about 24 units) was rushed to try to beat the Egyptians to infantry; they upgraded while I was sailing over. The first landing party was wiped out in two turns, causing lots of war weariness right from the beginning, and it was not until 1927 that I completed my takeover of the Egyptian territories. I quickly worked to build up gold, and bribed Napoleon to attack Huayna in 1932. He finished the spaceship on the next turn, so I was too late.

Lessons I have learned from what was a very fun map: when planning on a cottage economy, it is more important to settle the good spots first, even if there is a little more distance involved. I think I was too cautious with my expansion (in hindsight), as my cottages didn't really take off until much later in the game. I thought there would be more warfare on a continent with three different religions among five civs. Oh well.

Willpax:

Shame about the loss. I used Napoleon as an attack dog - he was easy to bribe into near constant warfare once I caught up in tech. I never passed HC in tech, but I was able to establish a military advantage.

On thing I've learned is that a renaissance or modern naval invasion had better bring a lot of troops. I would be thinking in terms of maybe 40 for renaissance and 60-80 for modern. I have no idea why, but at that point in the game the AI's military just skyrockets. Attack them in medieval and they can barely muster a counter attack. Attack them in renaissance and expect to get swarmed.

Also with Organized you can be a bit more aggressive with your early expansion. The best land was definitely to the South though - expanding there first helps.

Well, willpax, bad luck..... In my game HC was hammered down by napoleon ( which helped a lot ) and the more serious contenter was Hannibal. I had to bribr Nappy to war Han in the late game, because both were getting away ( Han with space and Nappy was vassalizing too many people and could be a diplo threat ).
The key of this game IMHO was to go south and work that grassland ASAP and to use nappy as a attack dog ( I used him against Wan Kong, Saladin and in the end against both HC and Hannibal) to stir things on the big continent. Capturing Ramesses land was optional, but welcome.