See below ...

To reduce the noise level in the sign-up thread, here is a thread where you can ask questions about the starting position and game conditions for SGOTM 5, and discuss them among yourselves. You may even get answers to some of the questions ....

This thread will close when the game starts, so there should be no spoilers in here.

So you know better what to expect.. there was a SG that was played on barbarian team:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=166443

The SG was hoever on prince difficulty, and they played it as an OOC.. so this game will be a bit different.. but you should be able to learn some of the more peculiar effects from it.. :p

From Da_Vinci's post in the sign-up thread:

you are teamed with the Barbarians, and you have to adapt to Barbarian assets and liabilities Do you mean teamed in the manner of a permanent alliance? Although, I suppose there is no barbarian leader to negotiate with! :lol: So I suppose we can't direct the research of the barbs (like one can direct research in a PA). But similar in other respects?

Teamed as in Teamed. It's a feature of Civ4 that civs can be teamed together. I don't believe it's possible to break a Team up.
Barbs get techs at a rate determined by the research rate of all the other civs, and they get your techs.

If we make peace with a civ, then are the barbs at peace with that civ as well? There is an odd concept! :crazyeye:

Yup!

If barbs make good allies (who knows?), then this game might be too easy (assuming you can survive the first few turns being at war) ... unless the opponents are teamed in pairs from the start of the game! :eek: Is that the nasty surprise awaiting us?

Want it to be more difficult, huh?

Want it to be more difficult, huh? Depends on just how effective teaming with barbs turns out to be. If not very, then the war with all to start is probably difficulty enough. But if the barbs are effective teammates, then perhaps to be fair, the AI needs teammates too? I don't have the answer, just the question.

AFAIK, PA has the same effect as teamed, difference being that teamed is from the start of the game.

I used to play solo games with teams (me and one AI vs three or four, on Noble) before I started playing GOTM, so this is nostalgic! :D


dV

Fascinating stuff. I hope my team mates have some idea how to play this concept as I have no clue what the best approach might be. I'm sure I'll still keep trying to attack any barbarians I see!

One effect of being teamed with barbs, apparently, is that you can't pop huts.

One effect of being teamed with barbs, apparently, is that you can't pop huts.

Can you pillage them?

Can you pillage them?

I have no idea what this means.

Destroy them so that other players can't benefit. It would be great if you could hide in the hut and attack scouts :O

Destroy them so that other players can't benefit.

The answer is a qualified yes. My understanding is, as a barbarian ally, if your units move onto huts there is no effect on the hut (just as you can see barbarians on the map sitting on top of huts). But, if the hut comes within your cultural borders, then it is "destroyed".

In practice, in a single-player game, the value of "destroying" huts is minimal.

The answer is a qualified yes. My understanding is, as a barbarian ally, if your units move onto huts there is no effect on the hut (just as you can see barbarians on the map sitting on top of huts). But, if the hut comes within your cultural borders, then it is "destroyed".

In practice, in a single-player game, the value of "destroying" huts is minimal.

Depends on the map. You can pop some sick techs on conty games when you come on an abandoned island with a hut.

Depends on the map. You can pop some sick techs on conty games when you come on an abandoned island with a hut.

But so what? If a random AI pops a random advanced tech, that's more likely good for us, than bad. Assuming we don't stay at war with everyone forever.

Fascinating stuff. I hope my team mates have some idea how to play this concept as I have no clue what the best approach might be. I'm sure I'll still keep trying to attack any barbarians I see! I think the fact that you will see every barbarian everywhere on the map simultaneously will keep reminding you how different this game is! ;)

dV

this game is interesting, so you are a normal civ, but team up with the barbarian...I wonder if there is a dipolmatic screen for the barbarians. By the way, what happen if all the barbarians are destroyed?

I wonder if there is a dipolmatic screen for the barbarians.

No.

By the way, what happen if all the barbarians are destroyed?

Nothing. More could still be created in fog areas.

1. Funny thing - is busting fog for you by your barb allies prevents them from spawning there?
2. For this team of 2, should the regular 1,5 multiplier towards tech cost apply?

1. Funny thing - is busting fog for you by your barb allies prevents them from spawning there?

I think it may always be the case that new barbarians don't spawn in areas visible to existing barbarians.

I have a few questions.

1. What about Great People Rate modifications?
2. If i sign a peace treaty with AI, wil barbs be at war?
3. What barbs do research & how my research wil be slowed down?
4. Anyone can make a test map?

I have a few questions.

1. What about Great People Rate modifications?
2. If i sign a peace treaty with AI, wil barbs be at war?
3. What barbs do research & how my research wil be slowed down?
4. Anyone can make a test map?

1 should be like normal.. that is civ-wise

2. if you sign peace with a civ, then barbs will be at peace with that civ too

3. When barbs has cities, they will research techs aswell, but since they have really high unit support (and no capital, so really high city maintainance), they will most likely run 0% sci.. however barbs get free beakers every turn in every tech that is known by atleast 1 civ (however it can be rounded down to 0 beakers for cheap techs if few civs know it)

4. For those making a test map.. when you load the edited WB save, you have to load it with 'play scenario' , the barb team assignment dont work properly if you use 'custom scenario'

Thanks Gyathaar for response

I would like to make a proposal that I think will give teams, especially those with members who play less regularly, a more equal footing:

How about Gyathaar posting a practice game?

The map wouldn't have to be at all similar to this one, (in fact it could be pathologically different.) The idea would be that since this is such a bizarre scenario, most likely no one has ever played it before. Teams that know how to make a practice game and play it will have a decided advantage. I can tell you for sure that Murky Waters will be making one and practicing.

If Gyathaar makes one, then the staff know 1) that all teams had a chance to practice on an appropriate scenario and 2) that we all can see the mechanics of how it's set up, if we want to make our own.

Just some food for thought in the interest of leveling the playing field a bit.

EDIT: Or perhaps even better, time permitting, would be a quick write-up on how to put together such scenarios... ;)

2. if you sign peace with a civ, then barbs will be at peace with that civ tooThis reminds me of a question ... At levels below monarch, the human gets a bonus fighting against barbs. I don't recall, but I think the AI might get the bonus at monarch (and above). But if the human is teamed with the barbs, will the AI get the same bonus against the human?

Can I have some assurance that the creators have played a full game through with these conditions? I mean this is ripe for a big bug to bite someone right in the ###.

Can I have some assurance that the creators have played a full game through with these conditions? I mean this is ripe for a big bug to bite someone right in the ###.

If the game doesn't go to your liking, I think the admins will refund 200% of your GOTM entry fee.

If the game doesn't go to your liking, I think the admins will refund 200% of your GOTM entry fee.

:lol:

:goodjob:

If the game doesn't go to your liking, I think the admins will refund 200% of your GOTM entry fee.:rotfl: ROTFLMAO!

Wow...that is probably my favorite post that DaviddesJ has ever made :D :goodjob:

Teamed as in Teamed. It's a feature of Civ4 that civs can be teamed together. I don't believe it's possible to break a Team up.
Barbs get techs at a rate determined by the research rate of all the other civs, and they get your techs.

OH! at least in warlords, whether an AI will trade with you depends on how his entire team (if he has one) feels about your entire team. teams meaning teams at start up, PAs, and master/vassals. that can create situations like you have two vassals that are both friendly with you, but are only pleased with each other--they're not actually friendly with you even tho the screen says that they are. you can be someone's "worst enemy" even if the diplomatic screen says that he personally is friendly with you personally if the teams have enough people on them bickering. it gets all funky.

and i can't imagine any civ on the planet will have good relations with the Barbs, since with no diplomatic screen, the barbs can't ever earn any + modifiers with anybody :lol:.

that "team attitude to team attitude" thing might not be true for vanilla though, i don't know.

I would like to make a proposal that I think will give teams, especially those with members who play less regularly, a more equal footing:

How about Gyathaar posting a practice game?

The map wouldn't have to be at all similar to this one, (in fact it could be pathologically different.) The idea would be that since this is such a bizarre scenario, most likely no one has ever played it before. Teams that know how to make a practice game and play it will have a decided advantage. I can tell you for sure that Murky Waters will be making one and practicing.

If Gyathaar makes one, then the staff know 1) that all teams had a chance to practice on an appropriate scenario and 2) that we all can see the mechanics of how it's set up, if we want to make our own.

Just some food for thought in the interest of leveling the playing field a bit. If it worries you that much, you could post the Murky Waters practice game to "level the playing field" :mischief:

It is the least you can do for balance after you guys gobbled up jesusin within 11 minutes of his post! :lol:

Well, someone needs to take on the Russians, so it might as well be you guys. ;)

dV

It is the least you can do for balance after you guys gobbled up jesusin within 11 minutes of his post! :lol:

MW may have more surprises up that sleeve...

MW may have more surprises up that sleeve... You are not thinking of defecting, are you ...?? ...!! :eek:

dV

If it worries you that much, you could post the Murky Waters practice game to "level the playing field" :mischief: I've already thought about exactly that and I have no problem doing that, but I'd want to have Gyathaar vet it first to make sure I didn't bungle it somehow. But Gyathaar needs to make some sort of public statement on it, because asking him to vet my test game by PM seems sneaky. I'd want everything up front and in the open.

It is the least you can do for balance after you guys gobbled up jesusin within 11 minutes of his post! :lol: dV, I advise you to plan 3-4 SGs in advance. Ever occur to you there's a reason we were so fast?

Well, someone needs to take on the Russians, so it might as well be you guys. ;)

dVMurky Waters is open to members of all nationalities. Just because one nationality is blessed with genius of a higher order doesn't mean you should single them out for your wanton attacks. (:lol:)

The original charter for Murky Waters states:

Our purpose is to advance the common knowledge for the Civfanatics Community for the good of all members, in the name of good sportspersonship, while gradually assembling a team that is so f'ing good that Sid Meier cloisters himself in a monastery in fear and trepidation.

:cool:

I have no problem with someone making a practice game and posting it here... it is quite common on the single player XOTMs after all :)

I have no problem with someone making a practice game and posting it here... it is quite common on the single player XOTMs after all :)I understand that, but my concern is that I goofed it up or didn't make it according to the constraints you laid out. Ha! As I began to type this I got a report from Big Pig that my first attempt crashes at around 0 AD (three times in a row...). That's perplexing.

What I did, right or wrong, was first to use Genghis Khan, because he has the same charactersitics as Temujin, and when I edited the WBsave, I replaced ContactWithTeam=0 with ContactWithTeam=18 in all 8 of the BeginTeam statements. Is that a mistake? Otherwise the only change I made was to rename GK using LeaderName=Temujin.

The other problem I had was that I couldn't upload (cough cough) the .Civ4WorldBuilderSave file type, so I renamed the upload file with .sav file type and Big Pig had to rename it back. I don't see why that would be a problem, but I don't know.

Here's the crashing file: EDIT: -deleted-

This file hopefully works: Go here

The contactwithteam dont matter.. all teams always has contact with barbarians anyway..

The only thing you need to change is the team player number 0 is in.. he has to be in team 18 instead of team 0

It is the least you can do for balance after you guys gobbled up jesusin within 11 minutes of his post! :lol:


:D . You are absolutely right! And since I was the one who suggested that jesusin signed up for the SGOTM (in the GOTM 18 spoiler) I feel entitled to some kind of talent scouting fee :gold: . Actually I have another tip for LtC: DaviddesJ has just signed up for SGOTM5 and seems to be looking for a team - don't forget my fee :cool:.

Maybe this is already old news for LtC anyway - he seems to be all over the (S)GOTM threads with all sorts of fonts and colored letters. Remember when he replied to me in pink letters - that was really scary :lol:.

The contactwithteam dont matter.. all teams always has contact with barbarians anyway..

The only thing you need to change is the team player number 0 is in.. he has to be in team 18 instead of team 0SO are yo saying the only change I need to make is from:

BeginPlayer
Team=0

to:

BeginPlayer
Team=18

?

Or are you saying that I need to add a new entry after
BeginPlayer
Team=17
LeaderType=NONE
CivType=NONE
Color=NONE
ArtStyle=NONE
Handicap=HANDICAP_NOBLE
EndPlayer
that looks something like:

BeginPlayer
Team=18
LeaderType=LEADER_GENGHIS_KHAN
LeaderName=Temujin
CivDesc=Mongolian Empire
CivShortDesc=Mongolia
CivAdjective=Mongolian
FlagDecal=Art/Interface/TeamColor/FlagDECAL_Horse.dds
WhiteFlag=0
CivType=CIVILIZATION_MONGOL
Color=PLAYERCOLOR_BROWN
ArtStyle=ARTSTYLE_ASIAN
PlayableCiv=1
MinorNationStatus=0
StartingGold=0
StartingX=24, StartingY=31
StateReligion=
StartingEra=ERA_ANCIENT
CivicOption=CIVICOPTION_GOVERNMENT, Civic=CIVIC_DESPOTISM
CivicOption=CIVICOPTION_LEGAL, Civic=CIVIC_BARBARISM
CivicOption=CIVICOPTION_LABOR, Civic=CIVIC_TRIBALISM
CivicOption=CIVICOPTION_ECONOMY, Civic=CIVIC_DECENTRALIZATION
CivicOption=CIVICOPTION_RELIGION, Civic=CIVIC_PAGANISM
Handicap=HANDICAP_MONARCH
EndPlayer

Maybe this is already old news for LtC anyway - he seems to be all over the (S)GOTM threads with all sorts of fonts and colored letters. Remember when he replied to me in pink letters - that was really scary :lol:.
We have upped the dose of his injections and he is somewhat less dis-inhibited now - although with LC it is always touch-and-go as to what may set him off again

SO are yo saying the only change I need to make is from:

BeginPlayer
Team=0

to:

BeginPlayer
Team=18

?
yes.. exactly

We have upped the dose of his injections and he is somewhat less dis-inhibited now - although with LC it is always touch-and-go as to what may set him off again

It's a relief that you have some rudimentary control over him. Could you also tell him that writing with invisible letters is a really cool idea and from now on he should do all his writing like this?

Now, about my fee....

The game starts 5 days before BtS....this will ruin my real life ;)

:D . You are absolutely right! And since I was the one who suggested that jesusin signed up for the SGOTM (in the GOTM 18 spoiler) I feel entitled to some kind of talent scouting fee :gold: . Actually I have another tip for LtC: DaviddesJ has just signed up for SGOTM5 and seems to be looking for a team - don't forget my fee :cool:. DaviddesJ is totally awesome. To be clear though, my greatest interest is getting some of the non-English wisdom into parlance. Nonetheless, I will pay you
200% of the entry fee. Deal?
Maybe this is already old news for LtC anyway - he seems to be all over the (S)GOTM threads with all sorts of fonts and colored letters. Remember when he replied to me in pink letters - that was really scary :lol:. Maybe dV and Dv would be an item... ;) for the Gypsy Kings... While Frederiksberg is clearly struggling with his own version of homophobia, I'm dreaming of tall, blond, Russian or Swedish (I'm not picky) women tapping on my flatscreen, promising to come to life and heed my beck and call... :p

Wishing you, Frederiksberg, the best of peacemongering in SG5.

Yours truly,

LowtherCastle

It's a relief that you have some rudimentary control over him. Could you also tell him that writing with invisible letters is a really cool idea and from now on he should do all his writing like this?

Now, about my fee....
I will get LC to issue you a check - in that invisible writing of his :)

While Frederiksberg is clearly struggling with his own version of homophobia, I'm dreaming of tall, blond, Russian or Swedish (I'm not picky) women tapping on my flatscreen, promising to come to life and heed my beck and call... :p

Wishing you, Frederiksberg, the best of peacemongering in SG5.

Yours truly,

LowtherCastle
Look what you've done Fredericksberg. You've got him all over excited - I hate to think what will happen in his SGOTM turnset now, but I'm sure we'll end up with a Permanent Alliance with Isa or Cathy as a result of it.

Come along, LC - time for some more of your medicine :pat:

Come along, LC - time for some more of your medicine :pat:Can I have the medicine that's

pink?

:lol:

(from the Sign-up thread):Big Pig, get 'im!I think Lexad is trying to muscle in on your finder's fee Frederiksberg

Where can I find a medicine potent enough to bring Obormot and Dynamic back into existence...

Where can I find a medicine potent enough to bring Obormot and Dynamic back into existence...How do you spell

d e i t y ?

I see that the pre-game discussion is very on topic. :)

(from the Sign-up thread):I think Lexad is trying to muscle in on your finder's fee Frederiksberg

I was almost an hour earlier than Lexad and he posted in the wrong thread and should be duly spanked for this by AllanH. Further LC has already made me an offer of 200% of the entry fee. Of course, I consider this to be merely a starting point for negotiations...

Where can I find a medicine potent enough to bring Obormot and Dynamic back into existence...

Whatever you do stay away from the pink stuff they give to LC!

I hate to think what will happen in his SGOTM turnset now, but I'm sure we'll end up with a Permanent Alliance with Isa or Cathy as a result of it.

Surprising - I estimated that you would be done by now ;) .

Surprising - I estimated that you would be done by now ;) .
LC is clearly rather slow with the ladies. I think the drooling puts them off.
(Apologies to all for the very off-topic direction this seems to have veered in)

I see that the pre-game discussion is very on topic. :)

Still you can learn a lot....

But you are right, we shouldn't hijack the thread with all this trash talk. Allthough I have a feeling that the thread starter doesn't mind.

In the first SGOTM we had a designated trash talk thread - maybe it time for a revival? I think AllanH closed it down with the argument that it had no litterary value :lol:. Still, if you place a monkey behind a typewriter there is a non-zero probability that it will write great litterature like "War and Peace". The same probability is there if you let loose Big Pig and LC in a trash talk thread...

Just for "out-of-interest" information:
What I did, right or wrong, was first to use Genghis Khan, because he has the same charactersitics as Temujin, and when I edited the WBsave, I replaced ContactWithTeam=0 with ContactWithTeam=18 in all 8 of the BeginTeam statements. Is that a mistake? Otherwise the only change I made was to rename GK using LeaderName=Temujin.
There is no real need to rename Genghis Khan, Temujin. In fact, Temujin was renamed Genghis Khan, if you get what I mean. :lol:

As for trash talking, I don't think there is much need for a thread dedicated to it. Just one that is open for Big Pig, Lowthercastle and Frederiksberg to express their true feelings for each other. ;)

But you are right, we shouldn't hijack the thread with all this trash talk. Allthough I have a feeling that the thread starter doesn't mind. You talkin' 'bout ME? :lol: I suppose I am the thread starter of record, but clearly AlanH is the de facto thread starter ... so which one do you think won't mind? ;)

In the first SGOTM we had a designated trash talk thread - maybe it time for a revival? I think AllanH closed it down with the argument that it had no litterary value :lol:

As for trash talking, I don't think there is much need for a thread dedicated to it. Just one that is open for Big Pig, Lowthercastle and Frederiksberg to express their true feelings for each other. ;) Just open a thread entitled "Pigpile on Big Pig" and watch the oppressed masses rise up in revolt. :lol: Seriously ... BP and LC need a place to do their psychotherapy! :goodjob: (Oooh ... was that serious?)

dV

:scan: Looking for something talking about how the barb alliance works. :scan:

Transported from the signup thread:

Big Pig, get 'im!

I try to leave the recruitment of new players to our dedicated team of Murky Waters talent scouts.
Ideally we are looking for a couple of Mongolian (or Barbarian) players to give some local inside knowledge after CFR's emphatic victories in the Russian SGOTM3 ( - although judging from the performance so far of our two Viking imports for SGOTM4, this may be a less than ideal tactic :) )

BP - I love you too ;) OK, first JPC takes a beating in SGOTM 03 and lovingly comes back for more, and now this from Erkon! :eek:

Just what power does Big Pig hold over his minions?

1. Perverse Charisma? (Charisma ... from a Pig? No way!)

2. Drugs and/or hypnosis? (It would take something like that, I think)

3. Blackmailing dirt on the minions? :eek: (That must be it ... wonder what he has on jesusin?)

dV

Well done, BP, your plan worked like a charm. They fell for it like cobs in the slop. ;) What was that plan again? This placebo left me woozy...

There is no real need to rename Genghis Khan, Temujin.(sigh) newbs

In the first SGOTM we had a designated trash talk thread - maybe it time for a revival? I think AllanH closed it down with the argument that it had no litterary value :lol:. Still, if you place a monkey behind a typewriter there is a non-zero probability that it will write great litterature like "War and Peace". The same probability is there if you let loose Big Pig and LC in a trash talk thread...

That probability is vanishingly small in both cases. No one here will be prepared to wait enough time for it to happen.

This thread was intended to see if there is intelligent life on Planet SGOTM 5. In my opinion, the jury is still out. :p

That probability is vanishingly small in both cases. No one here will be prepared to wait enough time for it to happen.

@LC: Do you think AlanH is casting nasturtiums on our literary prowess? I regularly knock out a couple of literary classics before breakfast.

@LC: Do you think AlanH is casting nasturtiums on our literary prowess? I regularly knock out a couple of literary classics before breakfast. I would doubt that ... but at least you are likely to knock out a couple of FLATULATORY classics AFTER breakfast! :lol:

dV

This thread was intended to see if there is intelligent life on Planet SGOTM 5. In my opinion, the jury is still out. :p

is that a spoiler that this game starts on a planet?

Dang it! I had no idea that we were playing on a planet!

I hereby call for a hearing on whether AlanH unfairly revealed spoiler information.

This thread was intended to see if there is intelligent life on Planet SGOTM 5. In my opinion, the jury is still out. :pAn Admin and you don't even know the one and only goal of this SG is to prevent all intelligent life from propagating on this planet?

Let's try an on topic post, shall we?
OH! at least in warlords, whether an AI will trade with you depends on how his entire team (if he has one) feels about your entire team. teams meaning teams at start up, PAs, and master/vassals. that can create situations like you have two vassals that are both friendly with you, but are only pleased with each other--they're not actually friendly with you even tho the screen says that they are. you can be someone's "worst enemy" even if the diplomatic screen says that he personally is friendly with you personally if the teams have enough people on them bickering. it gets all funky.

and i can't imagine any civ on the planet will have good relations with the Barbs, since with no diplomatic screen, the barbs can't ever earn any + modifiers with anybody :lol:.

that "team attitude to team attitude" thing might not be true for vanilla though, i don't know.

In fact it's the same in vanilla for team attitude. And the attitude value towards the barbs is fixed at -100.

That means nobody will ever vote for the barbarian team, if somebody should think about going for diplomatic :eek:.

On the other side the human will be nobody's worst enemy, because the barbarian team is not considered for worst enemy.

But more importantly with the list of leaders (none of the loose traders), there will be no tech trading before you get a leader to friendly (which is effectively cautious).
The same for bribing anybody to war.
There will be no trading of any kind with Tokugawa ever.
Open borders with Alex, Isa and Saladin would also require to get them to friendly first, which looks pretty impossible starting with -3 for having declared on them.

There is no difference whether the others are cautious or pleased. Both is effectively annoyed. So unless there is a chance to get somebody to friendly (maybe possible when sharing a religion with Asoka or Cyrus), there's not much point in trying to get on the good side of the civs.

A big problem will be war weariness. The barbarians don't suffer from it, but they collect war weariness points for the whole team. As they will lose lots of units in foreign territory that will ramp up quickly.

Want it to be more difficult, huh?

Depends on just how effective teaming with barbs turns out to be. If not very, then the war with all to start is probably difficulty enough. But if the barbs are effective teammates, then perhaps to be fair, the AI needs teammates too? I don't have the answer, just the question. It would appear that klarius has provided the answer: the barbs will be a significant liability! :eek: Between the WW (everyone at once!) the bad relations, and the reduced probability of wars between the AI while they are at war with us, many of our tricks to make up the monarch handicap are off the table. So this may play like a higher difficulty game. :mischief:

dV

Open borders with Alex, Isa and Saladin would also require to get them to friendly first, which looks pretty impossible starting with -3 for having declared on them.

Are you sure we get -3 penalty? We start at war with the other civs. That doesn't mean we declared war on them.

and the reduced probability of wars between the AI while they are at war with us
Well, that's not the case. :)

They are at war with the barbarian team only (atWar is a team feature). That's not different than normal start of the game. They will also get no mutual struggle benefit by being at war with us, so the usual animosities between war and peace oriented AIs still apply.

And BTW we will also never get mutual struggle points with any AI. Again that's a team feature and not applicable to the barbarian team.

@DaviddesJ
It does mean we declare on them. The war is done by a declaration in the init phase.

@klarius or anyone in the know

In my test games (my most recent version doesn't crash till 600ad--sure hope it's me and gyathaar knows what he's getting us into... ;)) I have received free techs occsionally, which I assumed were techs the barbs were getting free from the AIs by some mechanism or another. I assumed this because the first free tech I got was Archery, before there were any barbs on the 'planet' (about 3200bc). Later when I received fishing, I went into WB and all AIs had it. When I received Mysticism, all AIs but 1 had it.

I suppose it's also possible that the barbs researched these techs, and started with Archery, coming into existence at around 3200bc.

JerichoHill, has also reported that Yes, when the civs of the world hit a new era (I do not know what the cutoff is, but I think 50% is fair and close) the barbs jump an era and learn ALL techs from the previous era.

However, during the interim, they do research current era techs, so they may learn 2 or so before the next era leap.

Anyone know if and when barbs get techs automatically? And what the cutoff for barbs getting the previous-era techs is?

In my test games (my most recent version doesn't crash till 600ad--sure hope it's me and gyathaar knows what he's getting us into... ;))

Anyone know if and when barbs get techs automatically? And what the cutoff for barbs getting the previous-era techs is?
barbs get free beakers every turn in techs that is known by atleast 1 civ (it can be rounded down to 0 beakers thou).. when all civs know a tech, they get 3% of the beaker cost every turn.

Are you using the HOF mod? there are some crash bugs that are fixed in that..
In any case.. do you have a save from right before a crash (assuming it is repeatable) so I can be sure it wont happen in the real game...

barbs get free beakers every turn in techs that is known by atleast 1 civ (it can be rounded down to 0 beakers thou).. when all civs know a tech, they get 3% of the beaker cost every turn.

Are you using the HOF mod? there are some crash bugs that are fixed in that..
In any case.. do you have a save from right before a crash (assuming it is repeatable) so I can be sure it wont happen in the real game...THat may be it, becaue when I tested it last night, I had to load the HOF mod separately. Not sure if BP did that. He got the 600ad crash last night on the "properly set up" test game. I'll PM Big Pig.

Well, that's not the case. :)

They are at war with the barbarian team only (atWar is a team feature). That's not different than normal start of the game. They will also get no mutual struggle benefit by being at war with us, so the usual animosities between war and peace oriented AIs still apply. Hmmm ... so the other Civs see us as just another flavor of barbarian, as opposed to seeing us as another Civ? Because is sounds like AI Civs react differently to barbarians and enemy Civs, and our team is a hybrid of both.

And BTW we will also never get mutual struggle points with any AI. Again that's a team feature and not applicable to the barbarian team. Provided our hybrid nature does not alter that?

@DaviddesJ
It does mean we declare on them. The war is done by a declaration in the init phase. If we are considered as another flavor of barbarian, then can we ever make peace with any Civ? And if just a barbarian, why wasn't the war automatic, rather than having to be declared? :confused: :crazyeye:

dV

Barbs do declare on all the civs during initialization. And you can make peace with any other AI civ, as I stated in the game intro. At which point the barbs are also at peace with them.

@da_Vinci

You shouldn't think of this in terms of reasoning, but in terms of how the programming turned out to be (by accident).

There are a lot of places where things are done by a loop over all teams, except the barbarian team. Who's in the team doesn't matter then.

We declare war in the beginning, because Firaxis implemented it so that the barbarian team declares on every team in the beginning.

That doesn't influence our ability to do diplomatic talks with the other civs.
Now, if they will accept peace is another thing and depends on the normal evaluation of the AIs.
They will not accept straight up peace soonish as they will have higher power and we will not have any war success points.

There are a lot of places where things are done by a loop over all teams, except the barbarian team. Who's in the team doesn't matter then. That gets to my question: In a loop over all teams, do we appear as a Mongol team, or as a barbarian team, or are we both represented?

If we are known as the Barbarian team, then how can we have diplomacy with anyone? I've never been able to negotioate with barbarians when i am playing a Civ. :confused:

If we are known as the Mongol team, then we can negotiate with other Civs.

So it seems like we are not a "barbarian team" as much as we are a "Civ teamed with barbarians". The implications are quite different between the two, I would imagine. The other teams treat us as a civ, except that we must also adopt whatever default relations they have with barbarians.

The permanent war between Civs and barbs I am guessing is not that war is a fixed state between them, but that war is set at the start, and it is the absence of a negotiation avenue that keeps it permanent. Which is how someone managed to make permanent peace into permanent war in a prior GOTM: they found another avenue to change the peace-war state.

If this were not true, then we would not be able to sustain a peace with any Civ given that we are teamed with the Barbs.

Any of this sound right? :confused: :crazyeye:

dV

We are Team 18 = Barb team. But we can negotiate peace - barbs just don't have a leader for negotiations. Still we can be approached by othr teams with peace offerings - funny thing..

Ok, let's muddy the water some more.
There are 2 c++ (in fact 4 but let's try to keep it simple) classes related to various aspects of civs.
There is the cvPlayer which describes one civ like the Mongolian and the Barbarian civ. And there is cvTeam which describes teams.
For standard games w/o permanent alliances both are assigned just to one civ, so the distinction isn't that important.
But with PA or the hand modified case here, there is only one team class for 2 player classes.
Now, diplomacy is a player-to-player thing, though the team does play a role in a lot of the data used.
We are a non-barbarian player and by that we can do diplomacy and are considered by the others for diplomacy in contrast to the barbarian player (loops running over players not teams).

The atWar state is a team-to-team thing. But still if one of the members of a team signs a peace treaty (remember diplomacy is player-to-player) the team is at peace.

Test game for teaming up with barbarians

Maybe this will answer some of your questions. This is a test map just to get a flavor of what's in store. No attempt to match the starting layout. I picked archipelago-archipelago, all the right AIs, and hooked us up with the barbs ("team 18"), and the other settings listed.

It's funny, when you're used to things happening in a different way... but I won't spoil the fun for you... Oh yeah, and one more thing, no promises. If it crashes or it's wrong or anything else, caveat emptor. If you don't like it, don't get all pink in the face Frederiksburg, :lol: , instead just make your own... ;)

Here's the file:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/58975/SGOTM5_team_18.sav

Step 1. Save it to your Saves/Worldbuilder/ subfolder.

Step 2. BEFORE you can play it though, you need to go into that subfolder and rename it to:

...team18.Civ4WorldBuilderSave

(because I couldn't upload the darn thing without calling it a .sav file.)

Step 3. Open up CIV and load the HOF mod (11).

Step 4. To play this test game, then open it up by clicking on Play a Scenario and clicking on the appropriate entry (team18 something or other).

Have fun, folks!

Ok, let's muddy the water some more.
Actually, you have given me clarity! :goodjob:

We have an individual player identity, and we have a separate team identity. Certain operations of the game invoke one or the other identity, so sometimes we behave like we are civilized, and sometimes we behave like barbarians (isn't that what our mothers always told us? :lol: ).

So we are kind of a hybrid between civ and barb.

I get this conceptually now ... but I still need to work out all of the implications of that hybrid nature :crazyeye:

dV

The implications are that you'll have a hard time with diplomacy because of all the team identity stuff...on the plus side, we won't have to escort our settlers anymore :D

This should be fun, so long as we can find some Vanilla players for our team.

The implications are that you'll have a hard time with diplomacy because of all the team identity stuff...on the plus side, we won't have to escort our settlers anymore :D I think you want to give that some more thought ... :mischief:

dV

:p once we know where our neighbors are, we aren't likely to need to escort any early settlers...as long as we know that another civ isn't nearby.

The implications are that you'll have a hard time with diplomacy because of all the team identity stuff...on the plus side, we won't have to escort our settlers anymore :DNot just that. How about having a half a dozen scouts from the animal kingdom telling you exactly where your enemies are, followed up by barbs doing the same. The only thing I haven't seen yet is a barb galley... :lol:.

Annoyingly, though, yesterday when I was about to attack Toku, I waited one turn and pillaged the tile the barb axe was on so he'd attack Toku for me first. Nah, he went off to pillage another tile...

Oh, and if you want to pop those delicious-looking huts, you'll need to settle there...(or get them with border expansion)

I don't know if it's been said yet, but it seems like the barbs don't attack the AI. Also peas with the AI seems to be possible in the 2800 BC timeframe.

:p once we know where our neighbors are, we aren't likely to need to escort any early settlers...as long as we know that another civ isn't nearby. That's more like it ;)

dV

I don't know if it's been said yet, but it seems like the barbs don't attack the AI. Also peas with the AI seems to be possible in the 2800 BC timeframe.

The Barbs do attack the AI. From time to time they manage to take out an AI player, when Raging Barbs is on.

I don't know if it's been said yet, but it seems like the barbs don't attack the AI. Also peas with the AI seems to be possible in the 2800 BC timeframe.

It's only that usually, a babarian is in no position to take an AI city (except under raging barbs, or if a city has just been attacked by someone else) so they rarely attack, resorting to pillaging instead. They can, and sometimes do attack AI cities, especially with the raging barbarian setting.

I decided to set up my own practice game. At 1270 BC , my game also crashed. I was using the HoF Mod. I haven't tried loading up the autosave (http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/96336/AutoSave_BC-1270.Civ4SavedGame) to see if it will crash again, but if someone else would like to take a look...

I decided to set up my own practice game. At 1270 BC , my game also crashed. I was using the HoF Mod. I haven't tried loading up the autosave (http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/96336/AutoSave_BC-1270.Civ4SavedGame) to see if it will crash again, but if someone else would like to take a look...
That save is not using the HOF mod... but it doesnt crash for me when I load it and end turn either..

Well, I got a crash in a test game. Maybe it's no issue for the real map, but I verified in the SDK that there is a possible issue.
I gifted a tech to Asoka while he didn't know any real team. That leads to a division by zero in CvTeamAI::AI_techTradeVal.

Well, I got a crash in a test game. Maybe it's no issue for the real map, but I verified in the SDK that there is a possible issue.
I gifted a tech to Asoka while he didn't know any real team. That leads to a division by zero in CvTeamAI::AI_techTradeVal.
Thanks, I will look into it

I, too, get a Crash while playing in very early AD, right after I discover Alphabet. It is a divide by Zero error. It's about 4 turns in on the save I posted (Yes, I know I'm doing :smoke:. Hush.)

That leads to a division by zero in CvTeamAI::AI_techTradeVal. Division by zero ... we all know how painful THAT can be! :eek: What self-respecting CPU would not fall on its sword?

Nice pickup klarius! :goodjob:

dV

Test game for teaming up with barbarians

Maybe this will answer some of your questions. This is a test map just to get a flavor of what's in store. No attempt to match the starting layout. I picked archipelago-archipelago, all the right AIs, and hooked us up with the barbs ("team 18"), and the other settings listed.
@ Ltc, Thanks for test game! Just 1 ?, why did the Lion gobble my scout for lunch? I didn't try to run or anything. There was no provocation on any level.

I see the transfer market is in full swing for this game, then. Should I be watching eBay to see the latest bids in these auctions?

So I figured it was maybe just a glitch with the animal barbs and I moved on. Then a barb warrior razed my second (undefended) city. If those are my teammates, I sure don't need any more enemies!

I see the transfer market is in full swing for this game, then. Should I be watching eBay to see the latest bids in these auctions?

Latest rumors say that LowtherCastle is looking for a team. After Klarius joined Murky Waters the team has grown to 17 players so they decided to slash the turn sets of the weakest players to 2-3 turns. Anyone interested :please: in LC should contact me first to arrange the transfer.

@ Ltc, Thanks for test game! Just 1 ?, why did the Lion gobble my scout for lunch? I didn't try to run or anything. There was no provocation on any level.So I figured it was maybe just a glitch with the animal barbs and I moved on. Then a barb warrior razed my second (undefended) city. If those are my teammates, I sure don't need any more enemies!Sorry, man. I don't know what to say. It works for me. This is why I originally suggested to Gyathaar that they make a test game for everyone or some good instructions on how to do that, but alas...I'm a mere peanut in the gallery...

This is my understanding of how you set this up:

2. Make a new game with all the appropriate AIs, settings, just like any other time you make a game.
3. When you get the opening screen, open up Worldbuilder.
8. Click on the icon in the upper righhand corner for saving the WB file. Name the file and remember the name you gave it.
9. Exit out of WB.
10. Save the game you loaded (just in case), and exit out of CIV.
11. Open up Notepad and open the WBsave you just made. It's located in the Saves/worldbuilder subfolder.
12. Now you need to make just one change to this file, as I understand it. You need to go down to where it reads:

BeginPlayer
Team=0
.
.
.

and type in 18 instead of 0 so it looks like:

BeginPlayer
Team=18
.
.13. Save this file and exit out of Notepad.
14. Go back into CIV, make sure the HOF mod is loaded and then click on Play a Scenario" and click on the WB save you made and edited.

That works for me if I haven't forgotten anything. If I have forgotten something, I hope some merciful soul will correct me. After all, I'm not doing this for me. It works for me...

Thanks Ltc, I'll give it a go and see how much damage I can do on my own. If I meet with any level of success, I'll be sure to share with all.

Thanks Ltc, I'll give it a go and see how much damage I can do on my own. If I meet with any level of success, I'll be sure to share with all.Btw, did you open that game with Play a Scenario? Gyathaar mentioned that it won't work if you don't...

Btw, did you open that game with Play a Scenario? Gyathaar mentioned that it won't work if you don't...
Yes I did.

I did exactly as your instructions said for making one of my own. And although the results were encouraging, there were a few issues that showed up immediately.

1. Temujin (the player) started knowing 0 techs.
2. There was no score listed for the player.

I did not attempt to play the save any further, and have uploaded the 4000BC save file for anyone who may wish to experiment more thoroughly.

EDIT: So I tried the save and it seems to work properly in other respects. The barb animals and the player can share the same square, the player cannot pop huts, etc...
But still no score for the player, and the "Challenger" start of knowing no techs is why I usually avoid that option.

I didn't have starting techs either in the practice game. ANd your score won't show because your score is on the Barb team, and it doesn't show barb team score.

1. Temujin (the player) started knowing 0 techs.
2. There was no score listed for the player.
SGOTM 05 - Barbaric Mongolians

You are Temujin, Leader of the Mongolian Hordes.

You have no starting techs.
SOunds like you've got it right to me. I don't have a score for Temujin either, which is kind of weird if you want to go for domination, because that's how I'm used to figuring out how many tiles there are.

I used Ronnie1's save. I got to 1118AD and then crashed.

SOunds like you've got it right to me. I don't have a score for Temujin either, which is kind of weird if you want to go for domination, because that's how I'm used to figuring out how many tiles there are.

No one ever accused me of being the sharpest tool in the shed!

1. Make sure you have the HOF mod (11) loaded.
4. In WB click on the diplomatic icon (one of the choices in the upper righthand corner).
5. This will give you a window showing you and all the AIs across the top, with a choice for peace or war and a slider from -100 to +100.
6. To the far left there is also a pull-down menu letting you select you or any of the AIs. Select yourself (Gengus Khan or whatever you called it.)
7. With that selected, go across and make each AI at war with you.

Step 1 is not needed (you just need it loaded the 2nd time you start the game)
Steps 4-7 is unnessesary too

>Off topic

3. Blackmailing dirt on the minions? :eek: (That must be it ... wonder what he has on jesusin?)


We all have a past, don’t we?


Ok, let's muddy the water some more.

So that it becomes Murky? ;)



>Back on topic

A big problem will be war weariness. The barbarians don't suffer from it, but they collect war weariness points for the whole team. As they will lose lots of units in foreign territory that will ramp up quickly.

That’s quite a factor, indeed. I was wondering why would I want to make peace at all. WW is a very good reason.

I don't have a score for Temujin either, which is kind of weird if you want to go for domination, because that's how I'm used to figuring out how many tiles there are.
There is a neat workaround.
Under Options -> HOF1, set "Domination Land Limit Warning" to 50% before ending your turn. You can reset it back to the default 5% on the next turn.
Press End Turn, enjoy.

There is a neat workaround.
Under Options -> HOF1, set "Domination Land Limit Warning" to 50% before ending your turn. You can reset it back to the default 5% on the next turn.
Press End Turn, enjoy.

Before I figured out that you could mouse over your name for more information I developed a formula that would look at the demographic info and figure it from there, but this is easier.

Thanks to Gyathaar and Ltc for helping me learn some of the details around worldbuilder.

As a result, here is another test map that more closely approximates the starting location and conditions.

If your game or machine crashes, I'll disavow all knowledge of this or any other post relating to my ability to create Civ IV files!
In other words, enjoy at your own risk.

Gyathaar, will there be a special dll for this game?
I'm finding more problems in the SDK.

The barbarian team is not eligible for any victory (CvGame::testVictory() loop running only over MAX_CIV_TEAMS).
I checked this for domination with a duel map. Having around 90% of land and population doesn't grant a victory.
Also gave me the UN and my team is neither eligible for secretary general, nor for diplomatic victory (though I can vote for the others).
So only the manually checked conquest is possible (ok, but should be stated then in the game description).

CONQUEST: The Barbarians are not allowed to win by Conquest, so this victory condition is not detected by the game. If you do achieve the destruction of all the other Civs, you will need to inform us of that so that you can be credited with that victory condition manually.
Lookin at the previous post this seems the only kind of victory we can achieve: or simply for any VC (diplo excluded, if not possible) we need to inform the staff to be credited?
I suppose most of the teams will go for domination/conquest, anyway it's important to know what kind of victories we can achieve.

Gyathaar, i think that posting a map with the same settings, still completely different for "geography" to let the players check if there can be problems of any kind is needed.
I don't think most of us would like to see that something completely "crazy" can happen after 2 months of play.

Gyathaar, will there be a special dll for this game?
I'm finding more problems in the SDK.

The barbarian team is not eligible for any victory (CvGame::testVictory() loop running only over MAX_CIV_TEAMS).
I checked this for domination with a duel map. Having around 90% of land and population doesn't grant a victory.
Also gave me the UN and my team is neither eligible for secretary general, nor for diplomatic victory (though I can vote for the others).
So only the manually checked conquest is possible (ok, but should be stated then in the game description).
The problem is the mac players (if there is enough to form a team).. where I cant supply a custom dll..

I guess I could disallow diplomatic victory, and then just let the mac players manually check for the remaining victory conditions... and supply a custom DLL for the windows players.

Well, the whole victory stuff (including checking for conquest) could probably be overridden in Python :crazyeye: (though I have no idea how :lol:).

Well, the whole victory stuff (including checking for conquest) could probably be overridden in Python :crazyeye: (though I have no idea how :lol:).
Very true... but I dont know python either.. :)

I will prolly supply a special DLL that allows all victory conditions, and fix the division by zero error too.. and then we just have to make some special rules for potential mac teams (if there is one.. dont know that for sure yet)

Never ceases to amaze me 1) how barbaric we humans are and yet 2) how we think we are entitled to all the advantages in life that intelligent* beings have.


*artificial or otherwise ;)

@ Gyathaar, I think there is some sort of bug with the circumnav bous also. During a practice attempt I clearly navigated with a Caravel from west to east past a previous point I had navigated to from east to west with a galley.

I must admit this an extremely interesting game idea if we can get the details worked out.

Like softnum, I also got a crash on learning Alphabet. Will try to repeat tomorrow.

Like softnum, I also got a crash on learning Alphabet. Will try to repeat tomorrow.
no need.. it happens when AIs try to offer a tech trade with you (or demand a tech I guess)

@ Gyathaar, I think there is some sort of bug with the circumnav bous also. During a practice attempt I clearly navigated with a Caravel from west to east past a previous point I had navigated to from east to west with a galley.

My guess is the barbarian team isn't eligible for the circumnavigation bonus. So that would make this not a bug, just a handicap.

I thought some more about the zero division error in AI_techTradeVal.
While it would be possible to avoid it (and by that the problems people see when getting alphabet) early, by just giving the teams contact with each other in the initial save, it will then bite back when we go for conquest and are down to one civ.
Having a monopoly tech then will lead to the same condition. And that doesn't sound fun to have a crash shortly before victory.
So I think a dll fix is mandatory and potential mac players are out of luck.

EDIT:
The no tech trade option in the save could probably avoid crashes and maintain compatibility.

If you have the "fixed" Code, is it such a problem to find a MAC user who can compile and Test it?

I'm a Mac user. Unfortunately the Mac version of Civ4 has no ability to work with an external DLL., so recompiling it would be a waste of a lot of time.

I thought some more about the zero division error in AI_techTradeVal.
While it would be possible to avoid it (and by that the problems people see when getting alphabet) early, by just giving the teams contact with each other in the initial save, it will then bite back when we go for conquest and are down to one civ.
Having a monopoly tech then will lead to the same condition. And that doesn't sound fun to have a crash shortly before victory.
So I think a dll fix is mandatory and potential mac players are out of luck.

EDIT:
The no tech trade option in the save could probably avoid crashes and maintain compatibility.

Another possibility is to make a minor civ that is locked into the south pole, surrounded by mountains and ice, with contact with everyone (that way no diplo with that civ, and very little interaction in other ways.. and it will be sure to survive till the end of days)

Another possibility is to make a minor civ that is locked into the south pole, surrounded by mountains and ice, with contact with everyone (that way no diplo with that civ, and very little interaction in other ways.. and it will be sure to survive till the end of days)Unless somebody nukes it, Gnejs. :lol:

Unless somebody nukes it, Gnejs. :lol:

:D Nice Idea, but I am sure that can be formulated as a loosing criteria anyway.

The problem is, that i would vote and need to be conquered and stuff like that. So you are back to manual VC checks.

looks like another not so fine day to be on a mac
although my test game ran fine but no vic cond are ever reached
maybe time cuz i do have a score it just dosen't show up

A minor but inaccesible civ might make conquest that bit more difficult.

A minor but inaccesible civ might make conquest that bit more difficult.

Well, since conquest doesn't actually work anyway, you can define conquest to 'Everyone but that civ dead'.

Wlee I think it would also make for a lot more diversity, if some of the 8 players teams could decide to break up and allow some others in.


I've moved the discussion concerning the composition of teams to this thread, as it is not directly related to the sign-up thread.

Gypsy Kings and Murky Waters both took on 3 or 4 new members for SGOTM5...they've just done all their recruiting already.
And CRC is a Russian team...unless you know how to read Russian, I don't think you'd do very well on that team.

Sorry if i just missed it, is there a date for the beginning of this SG5?.

And perhaps a closing date for SG4? Do some teams already finished it? (just the number, not he name(s)).

Thanks in advance.

Damn CRC, they will get another laurel in this 5... would you like to invent a rule to break them?

Blubmuz, you could go read the first post in this thread. :p

July 19th

Sorry if i just missed it, is there a date for the beginning of this SG5?.
It's July 19, as previously stated.

And perhaps a closing date for SG4? Do some teams already finished it? (just the number, not he name(s)).
Make me an offer. There are some teams who seem to want to make a career out of SGOTM4. :p

Damn CRC, they will get another laurel in this 5... would you like to invent a rule to break them?
Just get better than them. It's easy!

It's July 19, as previously stated.I should have seen somewhere, now i'm sure, thanks.
Make me an offer. There are some teams who seem to want to make a career out of SGOTM4. :pEnd of August? 2007, of course!
Just get better than them. It's easy!the last sentence - in bold - seems a bit difficult.
I must specify that this is a joke, some of those Russians seem to lack in sense of humour. Dasvidania Tovarich. (hope spell is not a disaster)

Damn CRC, they will get another laurel in this ... would you like to invent a rule to break them?

Just get better than them. It's easy!

Well, BLubmuz is not coming out of nowhere with this idea, as the SGOTM reference thread states:

"4. Teams that have played together previously may stay together if they so wish. However, teams that have won Three laurels may be broken up automatically."

I am not saying that we should enforce this, but that it's been suggested before.

As for getting better than CRC/CFR, that is exacly the point of the following:

Gypsy Kings and Murky Waters both took on 3 or 4 new members for SGOTM5...they've just done all their recruiting already.


dV

I didn't remember that rule, and i was just jocking.

Anyway, they won their laurels as CFR, not as CRC, and the team members are not the same. They are also better :cry: .

But i'm not worried, i think no one can rip our (Fifth Element) second wooden spoon.

Our goal is to be in the top 13 teams for next 5. (unless the teams will be increased to 14)

CFR and CRC (aka CivRu) are very different teams, even though on occasions they do loan players to each other.

Just get better than them. It's easy!

Is there any particular reason you didn't tell us about this trick before #4??

"4. Teams that have played together previously may stay together if they so wish. However, teams that have won Three laurels may be broken up automatically."


Perhaps this could be extended to cover 3 Wooden Spoons as well? :D

I see that in an effort to beat the Russians by emulation, BLubmuz has changed his avatar to emulate Lexad! :lol:

I changed my avatar 'cause a noobie (but who looks like a promise) is around with my former one.
Anyway, she's my cat, and probably is a bit Russian.
But i see malice has no borders...:sarcasm:

Suggestion: Sort the list of free agents by skill level and assign players in reverse order of finish, like the NFL draft. :D

I changed my avatar 'cause a noobie (but who looks like a promise) is around with my former one. You refering to Adama? Seems he is learning fast! Fortunately, my "da Vinci admiring his catapult" avatar is unlikely to be used by others.

But i see malice has no borders...:sarcasm: Malice? I hope that humor was not interpreted as malice. :eek:

Now if I has said emasculate instead of emulate, that would have been malice :lol:

Suggestion: Sort the list of free agents by skill level and assign players in reverse order of finish, like the NFL draft. :D A good idea for those who are not otherwise snapped up in the free agent market (a distinct pool from the draft market).

dV

A good idea for those who are not otherwise snapped up in the free agent market (a distinct pool from the draft market).

Maybe we could incorporate a salary cap type arrangement to even things out? ;)

Maybe we could incorporate a salary cap type arrangement to even things out? ;) :rotfl:

Oh wait ... you are serious, aren't you :eek:

As a member of a team well over the cap for SGOTM 05, I'd have to vote no! :lol:

But is some future game, we might take a dozen or so elite players as team captains, then they pick players one at a time (random 1-12 first round, then 12-1 second, etc.) the day before the competition. Advantage ... balanced teams. Disadvantage perhaps ... have to like playing with new faces.

This latter mechanism might make a good training ground for new players.

dV

As for getting better than CRC/CFR, that is exacly the point of the following:


Gypsy Kings and Murky Waters both took on 3 or 4 new members for SGOTM5...they've just done all their recruiting already.


Perhaps the other teams could also take advantage of that tactic and send out invitations to strong GOTM players? The more competition, the better.

Perhaps the other teams could also take advantage of that tactic and send out invitations to strong GOTM players? The more competition, the better.

Well its not that easy. For strong players, a strong team has a higher value, as he might compete immediately for the Laurels. But if the strong players stay among themselves and use there better orgaisation to clean the market before the teams are assigned, then its hard for the rear to get better.

But to clarify I understand that somebody like klarius goes for the competitors, I just don't understand why these teams are already yet oversized. Building 3 or 4 teams out of these, maybe mixing them even up a bit, might lead to a better competition and that much needed influx of new idea to play catch up with the Russians.

Murky Waters have recruited two new players (klarius and jesusin). Not only are they skilled players, they also contribute with their knowledge. jesusin is open minded and is eager to discuss game mechanics. This will offset LowtherCastles narrowminded and secrecy style of play :p . We hope klarius can help us with details of how this strange game works, and his knowledge will hopefully offset BigPigs complete ignorance ;) . It is my personal hope that these two players will a) tech me new stuff about this complex computer game and b) make my game experience richer. It is also my hope that perhaps they will learn from me (or rather from my mistakes :lol: )

Mîtiu and Murky are not new recruits, and I bet LC and BP bribed them to join to vote against the ideas from the crazy vikings (mainly Gnejs, perhaps even me?) :lol:

We have an ambition to perform well and of course we want to win the gold laurel. We also want to have fun while playing and we want to learn more. It's more important to me to have fun than win the gold, and I think that it's the same for most players.

Breaking up teams will result in players dropping out, simply because motivation will drop. Any team can improve by running a test game or two, so it's not only about skills, it's also about how committed you are as a player (or rather how much spare time you have).

I consider eight players to be a suitable size of a team. This will allow two/three players to drop out without putting too much strain on the rest. It also enable players to skip a turn set sometimes.

/Erkon
Captain of Murky Waters

PS: This post is tagged with :sarcasm:

Perhaps the other teams could also take advantage of that tactic and send out invitations to strong GOTM players? The more competition, the better.

Alright then.

Calling: all deity level players!

$250,000 + super + significant performance based incentives
22nd floor penthouse sweet with daily entertainment and in house monkey
PA provided: your choice of 4th, 5th, or 8th in last years Miss Universe competition
Innovative team changing perceptions and challenging tradition
Proven leader looking for an exciting challenge

Are you a true leader who thrives in a challenging fast-paced environment? Are you looking for a refreshing change which provides you with an opportunity to capitalise on your extensive skills and experience? This executive appointment will be made within an innovative international team which has established its prominence in the field of sgotm. Its focus on excellence and a commitment to effective and efficient delivery of value-added tactics have resulted in an enviable swag of prizes, making it one of CFC's most successful and sought after teams.


:cool:

Tsk, tsk, Sweet. Your ad is seriously lacking. "Dynamic" and "synergistically" should've been somewhere in it.

If you want top-grade players, you've got to offer them top-grade jargon.

How about if we rename the team "SGOTM Solutions"?

Make it Dynamic SGOTM Solutions and you're set.

Alright then.

Calling: all deity level players!

$250,000 + super + significant performance based incentives
22nd floor penthouse sweet with daily entertainment and in house monkey
PA provided: your choice of 4th, 5th, or 8th in last years Miss Universe competition
Innovative team changing perceptions and challenging tradition
Proven leader looking for an exciting challenge

Are you a true leader who thrives in a challenging fast-paced environment? Are you looking for a refreshing change which provides you with an opportunity to capitalise on your extensive skills and experience? This executive appointment will be made within an innovative international team which has established its prominence in the field of sgotm. Its focus on excellence and a commitment to effective and efficient delivery of value-added tactics have resulted in an enviable swag of prizes, making it one of CFC's most successful and sought after teams.


:cool:

That would do the job for your team. :) But it would be cheaper just to PM the good players who haven't signed up yet, they might join you for free. :) (some people just don't read the SGOTM forum, but might get interested after an invitation, plus they may be more willing to join if they know that there is a ready team waiting for them).

So, I'll put my begging out here:

Anyone looking for a decent, active player? I shower every day, and exercise regularly.

CFR and CRC (aka CivRu) are very different teams, even though on occasions they do loan players to each other.
I'd rather say there are players preferring to play only one of those teams and indiscriminate ones. The major difference is the team-average ability to speak English :)

The method of decision-making is drastically different between CRC and CFR,

CFR:
The active player has absolute powers and final responsibility for the turnset. The job of the others is to argue and try to convince him/her of the best plan, as seen from their respective points-of-view.

CRC:
The active player drafts a tentative plan for his/her turnset, subject to amendment and final approval by the two captains. Other members can speak up with their suggestions, too.

When will the team threads be up?

Getting somewhat back on topic (Yeah I know I'm a spoilsport :p ) was it ever confirmed that we would need a custom dll for this game? The reason I ask is because all my test games eventually crash at some point in the early ADs.

I've tried making slightly different moves on reload which often lets me continue for a while longer but then it happens again. I've been playing with the HOF mod.

It would be helpful if you could supply some saves that display this behaviour. Gyathaar is building a custom DLL, but it would be good to verify that he is addressing all the issues.

It would be helpful if you could supply some saves that display this behaviour. Gyathaar is building a custom DLL, but it would be good to verify that he is addressing all the issues. Pardon my lack of expertise, but will a custom DLL need to be installed, uninstalled, reinstalled, uninstalled as we rotate between SGOTM 04, GOTM, WOTM and SGOTM 05?

Hopefully not, but if so, then hopefully it will be a simple thing to do?

dV

The method of decision-making is drastically different between CRC and CFR,

CFR:
The active player has absolute powers and final responsibility for the turnset. The job of the others is to argue and try to convince him/her of the best plan, as seen from their respective points-of-view.

CRC:
The active player drafts a tentative plan for his/her turnset, subject to amendment and final approval by the two captains. Other members can speak up with their suggestions, too.

Well, the greater role of captains in CRC team was determined by lesser experience in GOTMs/SGOTMs of the other players, and was designed to encourage discussion for greater understanding of team goals by all members - a point which was sometimes an issue in CFR teams. For the particular team - particular design, that's all. Captains have never abused their final say power and team members retained total flexibility in the decision making within the general plan boundaries. As a member of all CFR and CRC teams I don't see the difference that drastic.

For the particular team - particular design, that's all.
My point exactly. You needn't be defensive about CRC, as my post wasn't aimed at you but at this faulty line of reasoning:
CFR = Russian team
CRC = Russian team
CFR = CRC

Gypsy Kings and Murky Waters both took on 3 or 4 new members for SGOTM5...they've just done all their recruiting already.
And CRC is a Russian team...unless you know how to read Russian, I don't think you'd do very well on that team.

So what team wants a guy who wins on monarch, but needs to do some learning to get good enough to win something other than a wooden spoon?

Don't everyone come running at once! :lol:

Pardon my lack of expertise, but will a custom DLL need to be installed, uninstalled, reinstalled, uninstalled as we rotate between SGOTM 04, GOTM, WOTM and SGOTM 05?

Hopefully not, but if so, then hopefully it will be a simple thing to do?

dV

This game will need a different mod due to the already-discussed issues with the barbarian-flavoured team. The custom DLL is one of the files in the mod folder. But you'll just add a new mod for this game to your vanilla Mods folder and keep all the existing mods needed for your other games. Each game selects the mod it requires from your installed set of mods when you load it - the fastest way to do this from cold is to double click the game save file that you want to play, then the mod loads as Civ4 or Warlords starts up.

This game will need a different mod due to the already-discussed issues with the barbarian-flavoured team. The custom DLL is one of the files in the mod folder. But you'll just add a new mod for this game to your vanilla Mods folder and keep all the existing mods needed for your other games. Each game selects the mod it requires from your installed set of mods when you load it - the fastest way to do this from cold is to double click the game save file that you want to play, then the mod loads as Civ4 or Warlords starts up. Great! If it's all in a mod, quite simple! :goodjob: Will it still have all the goodies of the HOF mod, and have you thought of a suitable unique name for it? Seems inappropriate to just give it the next number in the HOF series! ;)

dV

Yes, it will be an adaptation of the HoF Mod specific to games where the barbs can win. So it will probably be unique to this game, and maybe that will also describe its name.

It would be helpful if you could supply some saves that display this behaviour. Gyathaar is building a custom DLL, but it would be good to verify that he is addressing all the issues.

:mad: Loaded up an autosave for a game that kept crashing and of course it works now. Perhaps playing a game in the same session where I've been using worldbuilder causes problems? :hmm: I'll have another try this evening.

If Gyathaar is setting this up anyway, could he also post a test game (he'll surely make a test game anyway to check if everything is working) for us. (It would save me some work)

I just wonder, will everyone play this SGOTM after BTS comes out...I bet I wont...

I just wonder, will everyone play this SGOTM after BTS comes out...I bet I wont...

I suspect that for those of us with established team loyalties (and/or team rivalries :p ), we will play this one anyway, as at least for me, the play is for the teamwork and the competition, not the platform.

dV

I'm with dV on this one! The game is the game, the Rivalries, now that's where the game is.:D :p :lol:

Please note:

There will probably be a short delay of a few days in getting this game started ... for a number of reasons ...

I'm definitely playing :)

I'll play any game I can get my hands on, no matter whether it is vanilla, warlords, or BtS, as long as I have the time to play it :)

Please note:

There will probably be a short delay of a few days in getting this game started ... for a number of reasons ...

No problem, but can we have threads to talk amongst ourselves? :D

No problem, but can we have threads to talk amongst ourselves? :D

Agreed. Getting some team threads up would be helpful.

I just wonder, will everyone play this SGOTM after BTS comes out...I bet I wont...

From what I can tell, there are lots of people (me included) who don't actually race out and buy every new game or expansion the day it is released. I'll be waiting until the price comes down before I buy it.

I'm buying BtS day it comes out...I don't do that with most games though...this might be the only game I buy until Christmas lol

I just wonder, will everyone play this SGOTM after BTS comes out...I bet I wont...

I certainly will be playing this SGOTM. I may be somewhat less focused than usual though. :blush:


From what I can tell, there are lots of people (me included) who don't actually race out and buy every new game or expansion the day it is released.


I was actually intending to wait until the first patch came out before I bought BTS. However when I saw it was selling at £14.99 on play.com I thought 'what the hell ' and ordered it. :lol:

Yes please, team threads! :bounce:

From what I can tell, there are lots of people (me included) who don't actually race out and buy every new game or expansion the day it is released. I'll be waiting until the price comes down before I buy it.

I'm waiting to see the response on these forums. If everyone who bought BtS goes missing after the release, then it's a good sign :D

I just wonder, will everyone play this SGOTM after BTS comes out...I bet I wont...

If anyone knows s/he will desert this SGOTM when BtS is released, then please state that now, not after I have published the teams or, worse, started the game.

@Infantry#14: Does that mean I should remove you from the list of sign-ups?

Is it going to be difficult to play two versions at once? I didn't get warlords, or any expansion for 3 FWIW. I mean is it just a matter of having the right CD in?

Warlords installs its own executable and its own save folders etc. and leaves most of the Civ4 structure untouched. It might upgrade vanilla, though, as it shares some of the vanilla files and resources. Assuming BtS is the same you should have no problem with interaction. As you say, you will have to have the right CD in place.

Post removed, maybe temporarily, until I have a ruling from more experienced mods.

If anyone knows s/he will desert this SGOTM when BtS is released, then please state that now, not after I have published the teams or, worse, started the game.

@Infantry#14: Does that mean I should remove you from the list of sign-ups?

Sorry, I guess I wont be playing this sgotm after all. My time should spend on BTS.

Yes please, team threads! :bounce:
I don't want to sound like a broken record, but AlanH hasn't commented on this yet.

If it isn't too much trouble to set up all the team threads (though the teams aren't even set in stone yet :sad: ), it would really help gear up open discussions within individual teams so that we can be adequately prepared for a possibly problematic variant. If anything, at least tell us that the threads will be up "soon". :)

Following my post above, I'm giving a little time for people to come out of the woodwork and admit whether they'll actually play the SGOTM once BtS is released. When I'm more confident of the actual sign-up list I'll publish the team lists, and only then can we open the team threads.

We shall not be starting until after the BtS release date in any case, given the possible side-effects of adding BtS to players' installations.

Warlords installs its own executable and its own save folders etc. and leaves most of the Civ4 structure untouched. It might upgrade vanilla, though, as it shares some of the vanilla files and resources. Assuming BtS is the same you should have no problem with interaction. As you say, you will have to have the right CD in place.

Well if it's just as simple as changing cds I'm sure you can count most everyone in. Any losses from bts will be negligible. If it prevents install of bts, then you'll lose me and others I'm sure.

We already lost one to BtS. Are you sure you speak for all the rest?

I'm in for sure!! :D
:thumbsup:

Alan, do you want us all to redeclare availability, or just those who might drop out speak up?

I'm in for sure. Pretty sure about the other Chokonuts but can check if you need. We've got potentially 2 consecutive wooden spoons to defend.

"4. Teams that have played together previously may stay together if they so wish. However, teams that have won Three laurels may be broken up automatically."

I am not saying that we should enforce this, but that it's been suggested before.

As for getting better than CRC/CFR...I wholeheartedly disagree with this rule, for three reasons:
The last thing I want to see is excellent players getting chased off for any reason,
Censored by the KGB
For every Russian that leaves one of those two teams, three more pop up out of the woodwork that are "most comfortable on settler level..." :lol:


Perhaps the other teams could also take advantage of that tactic and send out invitations to strong GOTM players? The more competition, the better.Listen to Obormot. ALways. He's deadly serious. ;)

CFR and CRC (aka CivRu) are very different teams, even though on occasions they do loan players to each other.

My point exactly. You needn't be defensive about CRC, as my post wasn't aimed at you but at this faulty line of reasoning:
CFR = Russian team
CRC = Russian team
CFR = CRCMy pet theory is that there is actually only one Russian player with about 450 users and 318 computers using 1,397 hot spots in 4-5 different cities. This player is a frigging genius, who intentionally wins the games about 47 turns later than optimum just to make it challenging. Furthermore, this Russian is a beautiful blond virgin with a silky, creamy complexion and she's secretly hoping to get beat by someone...

Dude, you should spend more time away from PC. Ask Erkon and Gnejs to take you blond-hunting, the second-favourite viking treat after "kill'em all" with which Erkon is constantly trying to seduce me.

Dude, you should spend more time away from PC. Ask Erkon and Gnejs to take you blond-hunting, the second-favourite viking treat after "kill'em all" with which Erkon is constantly trying to seduce me.Spent the last week away from my computer. In Georgia. Black hair everywhere I looked. NIghtmare.

no wonder the murky waters thread went dead...LtC was gone :p

Which Georgia - with Atlanta in it or without? :)

Alan, do you want us all to redeclare availability, or just those who might drop out speak up?

No, please don't. I just wanted to give a way out for players having second thoughts.

Which Georgia - with Atlanta in it or without? :)Without. I also fantasize about black on gold...that would be with. :blush:

Well, you'd better check out those nosy ravens again - there are some excelent specimen :)

Yes Please! Team Threads Pretty Please!!:bowdown: :thanx:

Btw, with BtS patching vanlla to 1.73 or something, will the mod deal with those who have BtS installed, or we should retain an unpatched copy of Civ?

Btw, with BtS patching vanlla to 1.73 or something, will the mod deal with those who have BtS installed, or we should retain an unpatched copy of Civ? Or will there be a stand alone downloadable patch that takes vanilla to "1.73 or something" ?

If not, how does one maintain an upatched copy (really a 1.61 patched copy I assume) on the same machine as BtS?

dV

You just copy your vanilla+warlods folder and rname it into "Civ_old" or something - and also your saveв gaes and stuff folder in My Documents - and then install BtS on the previous folder. Then you can play pre-BtS games in Civ_old folder.

This is why we delayed the SGOTM start mainly.. :)

Still dont know when they will be available for those that havent gotten BtS yet

With this BTS headache of patching the previous games (WT???), what patch level will this play with? I plan to buy BTS on Monday...

Still dont know when they will be available for those that havent gotten BtS yetSo you've already got a copy? So much for any sense of fairness to the HOF charts, where the first guy to achieve a date has priority...

That wasn't the point Gyathaar was making. He is saying that he doesn't know when the vanilla and Warlords patches will be released for people who don't buy BtS. This is not an appropriate place to air your concerns about the HoF scoring system..

So you've already got a copy? So much for any sense of fairness to the HOF charts, where the first guy to achieve a date has priority...
I was a tester on BtS.. I have had access to the patches (and earlier versions of them) for a long time...
(and I made an updated version of the HOF mod for them some time ago too... so no matter what, if I wanted to beat you to being first on an entry in the HOF, then it would be hard to get the mod before someone who makes it :p )

You just copy your vanilla+warlods folder and rname it into "Civ_old" or something - and also your saveв gaes and stuff folder in My Documents - and then install BtS on the previous folder. Then you can play pre-BtS games in Civ_old folder. Pardon me if this is a dumb, techno-ignorant question (I'm a user, not a programmer), but when old Civ.exe (or whatever the application executable file is) runs, how will it know to look for the old versions of files in the "old" folder rather than in the Civ (now BtS) folder? Is the code already written to look in the same folder were the .exe application file lives?

dV

Pretty much yes.

Is the code already written to look in the same folder were the .exe application file lives?

Yes, and it uses the name of the directory elsewhere, too. So if you rename your Civ4 directory to "OLD Civ4", then when you run the version from there, it will look under "My Games/OLD Civ4" for your saves, mods, etc.

Yes, and it uses the name of the directory elsewhere, too. So if you rename your Civ4 directory to "OLD Civ4", then when you run the version from there, it will look under "My Games/OLD Civ4" for your saves, mods, etc. Sounds good ... and just to keep folks like me out of trouble, you are suggesting we COPY (rather than rename without copying) the directory to a new one named "Old Civ 4" ... keeping the original Civ4 as that will be updated by the BtS install?

dV

If you want to retain old version and play BtS at the same time :)

Sounds good ... and just to keep folks like me out of trouble, you are suggesting we COPY (rather than rename without copying) the directory to a new one named "Old Civ 4" ... keeping the original Civ4 as that will be updated by the BtS install?

Yes.......

If you want to retain old version and play BtS at the same time :)

Or if you want to be able to play both vanilla Civ4 1.61 and also the new vanilla Civ4 1.73.

When you rename Civ4 to "OLD Civ4" you should also rename the directory under My Games in the same way.

With this BTS headache of patching the previous games (WT???), what patch level will this play with? I plan to buy BTS on Monday...

The patches are available now, through the update your game link in your advanced options menu. The SGOTM will play on v1.74, according to Alan in the XOTM forum.

So you've already got a copy? So much for any sense of fairness to the HOF charts, where the first guy to achieve a date has priority...

Actually, priority is given to the player with the highest score, if there are multiple games with the same finish date.

Actually, priority is given to the player with the highest score, if there are multiple games with the same finish date.

Not to mention that even if players have BTS they can't submit HOF games because there's no HOF patch for BTS yet. And when there is, it will be released to everyone at the same time. This has got to be the biggest mountain from the smallest molehill that I've seen in some time.

yeah...I don't know why I forgot to say that also...must have gotten distracted while writing. :crazyeye: