According to Firaxis (let's assume they know what they are talking about), using an emperor as a leader for Japan is not a feasible option at this time, so no Meiji.

With that said, given Tokugawa Ieyasu (who already represent the feudal warlords era of japan) as the first leader, who should be second leader?

Names that could be considered includes Prince Shotoku (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_Shotoku) and Okubo Toshimichi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Okubo_Toshimichi) (or Kido Takayoshi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kido_Takayoshi)). If another warlord is chosen, then Minamoto Yoritomo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minamoto_Yoritomo), an earlier figure than the Three Great Unifiers (Ieyasu, Nobunaga and Hideyoshi), could be considered.

Despite his infamny in the west, I think Hideki Tojo, given that he barely exercized power for three years, and led Japan reeling from disaster to disaster throughout (after the microscopic successes of the early war), would be an abysymal choice.

(Note that I'm well aware it is too late for BtS inclusion. I'm merely putting this up for discussion and debate; Firaxis can do as they will with this thread (it might be of use to them for Civ V, or a third expansion).

PM Yoshida, the first post-occupation leader of Japan who orcestrated the famous "Yoshida Doctrine," which allowed Japan to concentrate on mass reindustrialization after the war at a monumental (and historically speedy) scale. He also ensured that Japan could afford this project AND accomodate the post-war treaty by allowing America to provide Japan's national defense-- nice way to avoid paying billions for a military.

Some guy named Toyotami could also be a possibility but he lived at the same time (if not, Very close) as Tokugawa so i geuss no.

i think Prince Shotoku would be nice.

Regent Fujiwara no Michinaga could be one option. The Fujiwara household dominated Heian court politics and invested much effort into getting their daughters married to the emperor (thus many imperial princes were connected to the Fujiwara clan in one way or another).

And please, No Tojo.

Wait, I missed something, why is an Emperor not a feasible option?

Douglas MacArthur. Discuss.

Wait, I missed something, why is an Emperor not a feasible option?

Probably due to his highly regarded position in Japan which could offend Japanese players.

Who we know is a big market.

I find Firaxis' choice to not portray Japanese emperors predictable, but misguided.
I live in Japan. I'm an American teaching English over here, and I've chatted with plenty of people about what they think of the emperor and the monarchy. Opinions tend to range from apathetic to hostile.
Most Japanese people whom I've talked to think that the emperor is a rather quaint historical relic, and could care less about what happens to him, how he is portrayed, or what anyone thinks about him or his family. A few more actually think it's ridiculous that a modern, industrialized country like Japan still has a monarch, and would love to see Akihito and company go.
Of course, there are people here who view the emperor respectfully or even fanatically. But those people are the older, more conservative set. Very few of them would probably be offended by seeing Meiji portrayed in media, and those few that would are of a boisterous fringe element not representative of Japan today.
As for Japanese gamers, I actually have a few as coworkers. I told one of them about Civ, and, of course, his first question was "Whose the leader for Japan."
"Tokugawa," I said.
His reply: "Tokugawa? I'd want to be Nobunaga."
So there you go. Hopefully we'll see a Tenno or two in Civ V.

No Yamagata?

Yamagata could work, too.

He would be what, Organized, Industrious? I'd say Organized, Agressive, but we need a leader to counterbalance Tokugawa.

the "Friend" from 20th century boy of course. ;)

It depends. Do you give him traits to represent the person, or the nation at the time, or a blend of both (I favor focusing on representing the nation under that ruler)? Do you go by the names of the civics, or their effect?

To represent Japan of the Meiji era...

If you go simply by trait names, I suppose Agressive/Industrious or Imperialistic/Industrious would work ; Organized/Industrious is another possibility.

If you go by trait *effects*, I would give strong consideration to Charismatic/Philosophical. The increased great people output fits in well with the revolutionary era that was the Meiji era, as do the cheap universities; for Charistmatic, extra happiness works well indeed (larger cities, definitely something that suits Japan), and of course cheaper promotions suits Japan very well indeed. Spiritual/Charismatic is an alternative (rapid civic changes).

(Given this, I would probably look at Kido over Okubo, and either over Yamagata, to represent Meiji Japan)

EDIT : Another possible leader is Ito Hirobumi. Not as famous perhaps, but he was the first prime minister of Meiji Japan, and, his assassin appears to be included as a Great Spy...

Nobunaga Oda seems to me to be the most renowned on the non-emperor list. But then he's not much different in game terms from Tokugawa.

As for inclusion of emperors being an issue in Japan, I'd agree that actual civ players and young people in general wouldn't give a hoot. But the right wing conservatives in Japan might object, call for boycots, apologies etc, so I guess it's not worth the hassle for Firaxis.

Shigeru Yoshida or Hayato Ikeda are nice choices. Also Toyotomi Hiyedoshi, Minamoto Yoritomo, Toyotomi Hideyoshi, Oda Nobunaga.

I think the difference is in movies, Japanese emperors are depicted more or less historically, and there's usually nothing to argue about. In the case of games, however, making an emperor playable and at least interactive will pose more obvious problems. This is really similar to adding Hitler as German leader to the game. So, end of story. No more whining about that.

And I'm still not convinced that any other particular Japanese leader should be included. Yoritomo (I'm getting nostalgic memories of playing the Civ2 feudal Japan scenario) is probably the only individual that could possibly stand a chance, and he is still greatly overshadowed by Tokugawa. I would support the creation of a Sengoku-era Japan scenario, but adding Nobunaga, Hideyoshi or Shingen as a second epic game leader would just be superfluous.

I don't think another samurai or another warlord as leader would represent Japanese history well. There are other dimensions to Japanese culture besides warriors. Regent Fujiwara no Michinaga would represent the aristocratic court culture of the Heian Period well.

I think Firaxis should have sucked it up and put an Emperor in the game. They care too much about being "controversal" to care about representing an accurate depiction of history. They left out Hitler but included Stalin and Mao which I was surprised at, and removed Mao from the Chinese version of the game. Why couldn't they just removed Meiji from the Japanese version and Hitler from the German version? I'm really surprised they didn't remove Stalin from the Russian version, but I guess Russians aren't all uptight and insane over a GAME.

I second Yoshida.

Financial/Industrious?

Yokozuna

http://www.contra.gr/images/Yokozuna60706.jpg

I second Yoshida.

Financial/Industrious?

Sounds nice :).

Nobunaga despite being from the same era as Tokugawa would be a good fit just because he was apparently quite open towards the West and therefore in terms of gameplay wouldn't be a physco isolationist like Civ IV's version of Toku.

Nubou Uematsu

Oh, just cancel all the leaderheads and deal with representatives of the COUNTRY, not with an immortal "leader"! Solves all sorts of problems that way, but decreases educational value somewhat.

Yokozuna

http://www.contra.gr/images/Yokozuna60706.jpg

but he's dead!!! Which I just found out after reading about Chris Benoit...
Love the avatar though....great game.

Prince Shotoku would be nice. He promoted Buddhism and so was very influential in Japanese history.
Maybe in a next expansion or game have Asoka, Wu Zetian and Shotoku, the 3 biggest promoters of buddhism in Asia.

The problem, Virulent, is that Tokugawa Ieyasu AS A PERSON was at least as open to foreigners as Nobunaga.

Under Tokugawa's reign, embassy ships were sent far and wide, to New Spain and elsewhere; Tokugawa himself had an English advisor (Will Adams, the first westerner to ever be granted Samurai status), and made great use of gunpowder weapons at Sekigahara and later at the siege of Osaka.

The seclusion of Japan began in the 1630s, at which point tokugawa was 15 years if not more in the grave.

Yokozuna

http://www.contra.gr/images/Yokozuna60706.jpg

I concur.

actually, because 9and some of the vets might find this a bit ironic, given my opinions of certain female leader that is best left undiscussed [actually, you all can discuss it all you want, I'm not though] I wouldnt mind a few more chick leaders.

if we alreadyhave the realm of the semi-mythical figure gilgamesh, why not include Empress Jingū? [course given that I know pretty much . .. .. .. . all about Japanese history outside what i learned from "secrets of the samurai", which was more concerned with martial practices I have no goddamned clue, really.]

Well, given the "No Imperial Rulers" policy Firaxis told us they are under...

Why couldn't they just removed Meiji from the Japanese version and Hitler from the German version? I'm really surprised they didn't remove Stalin from the Russian version, but I guess Russians aren't all uptight and insane over a GAME.
They should have left Meiji out because Meiji was a Figurehead. Including him would be like including George VI.

It depends. Do you give him traits to represent the person, or the nation at the time, or a blend of both (I favor focusing on representing the nation under that ruler)? Do you go by the names of the civics, or their effect?

To represent Japan of the Meiji era...

If you go simply by trait names, I suppose Agressive/Industrious or Imperialistic/Industrious would work ; Organized/Industrious is another possibility.

If you go by trait *effects*, I would give strong consideration to Charismatic/Philosophical. The increased great people output fits in well with the revolutionary era that was the Meiji era, as do the cheap universities; for Charistmatic, extra happiness works well indeed (larger cities, definitely something that suits Japan), and of course cheaper promotions suits Japan very well indeed. Spiritual/Charismatic is an alternative (rapid civic changes).

(Given this, I would probably look at Kido over Okubo, and either over Yamagata, to represent Meiji Japan)

EDIT : Another possible leader is Ito Hirobumi. Not as famous perhaps, but he was the first prime minister of Meiji Japan, and, his assassin appears to be included as a Great Spy...
I think Organized definately fits into Yamagata's, and the Meiji era's rule. Yamagata's real accomplishments were in setting up the administrative system of Japan and organizing the Army along European lines.
Maybe Org/Imperialistic?

I would go for Minamoto Yoritomo as next leader. Tojo Hideki is in no way a choice, he was a convicted war criminal and the Chinese and koreans, etc would not like that they already didn't like it when Koizumi visiter the Yasukuni war shrine and Japan is trying to repair ties. Plus his daughter is running for a place in parliament and the subject is just very touchy.

Prince Shotoku would be nice. He promoted Buddhism and so was very influential in Japanese history.
Maybe in a next expansion or game have Asoka, Wu Zetian and Shotoku, the 3 biggest promoters of buddhism in Asia.

I agree about Prince Shotoku - a very important person in Japanese history, and also not an Emperor, so presumably no one in Japan would get upset. He could be Spiritual/Creative or Spiritual/Organized, because if I remember correctly, he was the one who first invited Buddhist monks to Japan, which led to the evolution of Zen Buddhism. Generally, Japanese culture became more vibrant thanks to him. He also invited a lot of Chinese and Koreans to teach the Japanese all kinds of new skills. In the 8th century, a third of all Japanese noble families were of Chinese or Korean ancestry. That supports the Organized trait for him. He would definitely not be an isolationist like Tokugawa - this was long before the Mongolian-Chinese invasion attempts which made Japan isolationist for so long, and quite understandably so.

They should have left Meiji out because Meiji was a Figurehead. Including him would be like including George VI.
ALL the Japanese emperors since ~1200 were figureheads, friend. So it's just as well that Firaxis is too chicken to include one, because putting another Samurai warlord in the game wouldn't serve much purpose. Japan doesn't deserve a second leader.

They should have left Meiji out because Meiji was a Figurehead. Including him would be like including George VI.

Why don't you say including Meiji be like including Victoria?

Why don't you say including Meiji be like including Victoria?

Good point. They should have included Disraeli instead of Victoria.

Arioch: Of course Japan deserves a second leader. One of the most vibrant economies on the planet, a cultural hothouse and definitely a country which has played an important role in history.

Emperors being figureheads goes back further than 1200. The Fujiwara family dominated court politics in the Heian period.

There are several leaders in Japanese history who *aren't* samurai warlords. Shotoku was a prince and Fujiwara no Michinaga was a regent, both coming from the classical aristocracy and not from the samurai.

Arioch: Of course Japan deserves a second leader. One of the most vibrant economies on the planet, a cultural hothouse and definitely a country which has played an important role in history. No argument on Japan's merit as a country, but we're talking about a game here, not a mutual admiration society. There are no obvious great leader choices who would be significantly different from the existing one. Nobunaga, Yoritomo, Kiyomori, Hideyoshi et al were all warlords who would play pretty much the same as Tokugawa Ieyasu.

Just because a choice is not "obvious" does not mean it's not a valid choice.

In fact, if one studies Japanese history at all, there are several choices that becomes obvious. It' sjust most westerners perceive japanese history in terms of Shogun and Emperors, while the other positions that replaced Shogun in other eras (regent, genro, prime ministers, etc) gets quietly ignored.

Name one regent who actually had a significant impact on the history of Japan. There are none... even in the Heian period, all the real power was with the samurai daimyos. The only regent I can think of with significant impact is Taira Kiyomori... and he was a samurai warlord.

Name one post-WWII Japanese leader (aside from MacArthur) who had any serious impact on the way modern Japan evolved. You can't because there aren't any. Try to find a Japanese equivalent of Lincoln or Roosevelt, and you come up empty.

The only options are Tojo or Meiji, and you know Firaxis is too chicken to include either.

In any case, Japan isn't getting a second leader in BtS, so get over it.

Samurai daimyos didn't hold much power until the end of the Heian Period. Competing aristocratic factions were the ones who held real power, particularly the Fujiwara family. Fujiwara no Michinaga was an aristocrat (but *not* a samurai), but was de facto ruler of the Heian court.

I'd say Okubo Toshimichi, at least, had just as profound an impact on Japan as any Lincoln or Roosvelt on America.

While he never technically held a title associated with ruling the country (though "Home Minister", while he had it, was so sweeping as to make very little difference), there is very little doubt that after Saigo and Kido both left the government in 1873-1874, Okubo was the #1 member of the government (keep in mind that there was no prime minister office in Meiji Japan until 1885).

Among other things commonly credited to him...
-Abolished the clan (daimyo) system, and replaced it by the prefecture system.
-Advocated (and personally saw to according to some sources) abolishing many privileges of the samurai class (and ultimately the class itself)
-Advocated (and was victorious) moving the imperial capital from Kyoto to Edo (Tokyo).
-Reformed of the tax system
-Sponsored industrial development.

He may also (that is only from Answers.com) have personally taken part in the negociations that gave Japan sovereignty over the Ryukyu islands, as well

Various links
http://www.mondialisme.org/article.php3?id_article=687 (french, mention the capital move)
http://www.ndl.go.jp/portrait/e/datas/32.html (japanese diet article on him)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%8Ckubo_Toshimichi (Wiki on the topic)
http://www.britannica.com/ebc/article-9373959 (Britannica on the topic)
http://www.answers.com/topic/okubo-toshimichi (Answers.com on the topic)

It is perhaps worth noting that his main english-language biography to date (there are very few biographies about the Meiji oligarchy members) is titled "The Japanese Bismarck".

Bottom line is, he was certainly a leader, and he certainly qualifies as someone who changed and shaped his country as much (if not more) than many of the leaders in Civ IV.

Mr Myagi.

Did anyone suggest him yet?

I'd say Okubo Toshimichi, at least, had just as profound an impact on Japan as any Lincoln or Roosvelt on America.

While he never technically held a title associated with ruling the country (though "Home Minister", while he had it, was so sweeping as to make very little difference), there is very little doubt that after Saigo and Kido both left the government in 1873-1874, Okubo was the #1 member of the government (keep in mind that there was no prime minister office in Meiji Japan until 1885).

Among other things commonly credited to him...
-Abolished the clan (daimyo) system, and replaced it by the prefecture system.
-Advocated (and personally saw to according to some sources) abolishing many privileges of the samurai class (and ultimately the class itself)
-Advocated (and was victorious) moving the imperial capital from Kyoto to Edo (Tokyo).
-Reformed of the tax system
-Sponsored industrial development.

He may also (that is only from Answers.com) have personally taken part in the negociations that gave Japan sovereignty over the Ryukyu islands, as well

Various links
http://www.mondialisme.org/article.php3?id_article=687 (french, mention the capital move)
http://www.ndl.go.jp/portrait/e/datas/32.html (japanese diet article on him)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%8Ckubo_Toshimichi (Wiki on the topic)
http://www.britannica.com/ebc/article-9373959 (Britannica on the topic)
http://www.answers.com/topic/okubo-toshimichi (Answers.com on the topic)

It is perhaps worth noting that his main english-language biography to date (there are very few biographies about the Meiji oligarchy members) is titled "The Japanese Bismarck".

Bottom line is, he was certainly a leader, and he certainly qualifies as someone who changed and shaped his country as much (if not more) than many of the leaders in Civ IV.

I like this idea to. It can show that Japan represents modern japan as well as medieval.

No argument on Japan's merit as a country, but we're talking about a game here, not a mutual admiration society. There are no obvious great leader choices who would be significantly different from the existing one. Nobunaga, Yoritomo, Kiyomori, Hideyoshi et al were all warlords who would play pretty much the same as Tokugawa Ieyasu.

I quite agree with you, but there is another option than a second warlord. Fideel suggested Crown Prince Shotoku, and that's an excellent suggestion. Shotoku was the true ruler of Japan at the end of the 6th century, although he was never an Emperor, so presumably, no Japanese would get upset at his inclusion. (His aunt, the Empress Suiko, was the official ruler.) Shotoku was the absolute opposite of Tokugawa: he was a renewer who welcomed foreign contacts and impulses and invited Koreans and Chinese to settle in Japan, bringing their skills with them. He also promoted the spread of Buddhism in Japan, thus contributing to the emergence of Zen Buddhism. He would have been much more worthwhile than a third ruler for countries which already have two. Or than Boudica the slut. I mean, just think of the fun you could have with Japan (even playing as the country) with the addition of another ruler than the isolationist Tokugawa - whom I don't want to see removed, just complemented by a second ruler.

^and hes representive of the era before the isolationalist Japanese and the samurai and the ninjas and what not.

^and hes representive of the era before the isolationalist Japanese and the samurai and the ninjas and what not.

Interestingly enough, he can also represent the modern, outward-looking Japan.

precisely.

Prince Shotoku or Okubo Toshimichi would be good. I mean, Meiji, although more famous, wasn't really the political powerhouse of the era. He didn't hold the real reins of government nor was he particularly involved in bringing his own rise to power. While he certainly had to have had some political skill to last as long as he did, he was more passive than Toshimichi. Hell, the Meiji Era wasn't even named after Meiji... Meiji was named, posthumously, after the Meiji Era.

The prince seems more exotic though, and that's a factor in a good leaderhead to me. However, if this were to be modded in, someone would probably just reskin an existing leader, so it might be easier to use another leaderhead dressed in the western-style clothing that Okubo Toshimichi would've worn than more traditional Japanese attire for which there is only one leader who fits that.

^actually, i think if you somehow fix up Ashoka (espcially the eyes), you could make him look like a pre-samurai era Japanese.