As far as i can tell they are not adding NEW leader traits, which is what i thought was most needed. Almost all the combinations are available now. There should be more diversity IMO.

Well maybe we need one or two more traits if we're going to add more leaders (Firaxis please add Meiji, al-Rashid and Taizong in a patch :please:). But it's not a big priority imho.

I seriously think that more traits would be a BAD idea, as would many more Leaders/Civs

the more you have, the more you destroy the uniqueness of each.

I seriously think that more traits would be a BAD idea, as would many more Leaders/Civs

the more you have, the more you destroy the uniqueness of each.

I think we are fine with the traits we have... I still have trouble keeping them all straight. I'm just glad they were able to use up the ones left.

If anything, they should edit a few for balance purposes, but no need to add/substract traits.

As far as I'm concerned, we can use the pre-existing traits. When you ask that we should have more traits, what game mechanic would they affect?

We have a commerce trait, happiness trait, health trait, a few warmonger traits, great people and great general traits, culture traits, etc. What else should be considered?

I'd kind of have to disagree. If they're adding less new leaders than available traits then there's no real need for new traits - especially when there is still debate about how well balanced the traits are.

Antilogic:
We have a commerce trait, happiness trait, health trait, a few warmonger traits, great people and great general traits, culture traits, etc. What else should be considered?

There is room for a naval trait somewhere down the line but I'd wait to see how trade routes are implemented before settling on a form for it.

We have a commerce trait, happiness trait, health trait, a few warmonger traits, great people and great general traits, culture traits, etc. What else should be considered?



- Trade
- Research (OP maybe)
- Food(?)

As far as I'm concerned, we can use the pre-existing traits. When you ask that we should have more traits, what game mechanic would they affect?

We have a commerce trait, happiness trait, health trait, a few warmonger traits, great people and great general traits, culture traits, etc. What else should be considered?

I'd like a scientific trait that gave stronger research but wouldn't have the flexibility that financial has.

A technological/engineering trait that, among other things, reduced the cost of unit upgrades.

(Firaxis wouldn't make this one) A 'fundamentalist' trait that had a series of bonuses related to your national religion, but with penalties for science and additional penalties to changing your national religion. This would separate the 'crusading' spiritual leaders (Isabella) from the more peaceful spiritual leaders (Ghandi)

I too am disapointed they didn't at least try to add one more trait, and leaving more 'blank' spots for modders.

We don't know exactly how espionage is going to work in BtS yet. But what about a trait that would give a benefit to espionage? Or maybe an espionage benefit to an existing trait?


Also I don't know which leader, if any, could be represented historically with this trait though (Maybe some of the WWII leaders?).

New leader! New Traits!

Bush II - Incompetent, Stubborn

Stubborn - 4 turns of anarchy to change a civic instead of one. does not conclude peace treaties.

Incompetent - 50% higher maintenence costs empirewide.

Not that I like El Presidente Bush II, but why does the "Incompetent/Stubborn" combo come up every time somebody mentions new traits?

Here's what I have to say about the new trait ideas posted above:

Scientific: Well, the Financial bonus takes away some of the thunder, but the cheap libraries and universities belong to the Creative and Philosophical traits.

Agricultural and Seafaring: Don't quite make sense to me given that the traits are not so much describing a civilization as a person. For example, you could call a person Aggressive and Charismatic, but not Agricultural. However, the cheap granaries and harbors ("Agricultural" buildings) belong to other traits like Expansive as well.

The fact is, the "previous" Civ3 traits don't easily fit into Civ4 because their benefits have been redistributed amongst the new Civ4 traits. Spying and Corporations are the obvious new game mechanics that could have traits related to them, but Financial seems to be a solid pick for a corporation-based trait, and it seems like Firaxis is adjusting the Economic civics to account for corporation gameplay. As for spying...who knows? Will Philosophical boost the great spy production? Probably, as I understand the spy specialist at this point.

I do not think that there is any room for an espionage trait since there is currently no gold, science, or culture trait.

Antilogic:
... and Seafaring: Don't quite make sense to me given that the traits are not so much describing a civilization as a person. For example, you could call a person Aggressive and Charismatic, but not Agricultural. However, the cheap granaries and harbors ("Agricultural" buildings) belong to other traits like Expansive as well.

That's just a compaint against the name which can be easily changed to something else. Surely the main point in suggesting a new trait isn't to settle of a perfect title but - at it's vaguest - to come up with an area of the game which is unaffected by other traits.

I do stand by the idea that expansive - extra food in populous cities and cheap granaries - makes an agricultural trait redunadant.

But if the importance of building navies has been augmented in BtS then there will be room for a trait which provides benefits to the naval aspect of the game - a trait that some out of CivIII tradition happen to have called seafaring.

Progressive
-50% turns from city cultural conversion (aka after taking a city or after a revolt)
Double construction speed of Science Lab, Observatory

Seafaring
Work Boats created +25% faster
+2 Food on Water Plots already producing 3
Double construction speed of Harbour

Progressive sounds like a pretty weak trait to me... I don't want to see them add traits just for the sake of adding traits.

Progressive sounds like a pretty weak trait to me... I don't want to see them add traits just for the sake of adding traits.

What about this?

Progressive
+5% Research in all cities
Double construction speed of Science Lab, Observatory

As far as i can tell they are not adding NEW leader traits, which is what i thought was most needed. Almost all the combinations are available now. There should be more diversity IMO.

Democratic:
+10% productions with a peace
+15% commerces with a war
-25% foods with a war

Communism:
-50% Number of cities maintenance

Nazism:
+25% productions with a war

Militarism:
+25% promotion

I do not think that there is any room for an espionage trait since there is currently no gold, science, or culture trait.



That's just a compaint against the name which can be easily changed to something else. Surely the main point in suggesting a new trait isn't to settle of a perfect title but - at it's vaguest - to come up with an area of the game which is unaffected by other traits.

I do stand by the idea that expansive - extra food in populous cities and cheap granaries - makes an agricultural trait redunadant.

But if the importance of building navies has been augmented in BtS then there will be room for a trait which provides benefits to the naval aspect of the game - a trait that some out of CivIII tradition happen to have called seafaring.


Granted, I'm pointing at the names for consistency. But aren't cheap harbors and lighthouses already in the game as half-priced buildings of Organized and Expansive leaders as well? Also, I disagree with your first sentence: I consider Creative a culture trait. And Financial a hybrid science/gold trait (essentially, a "commerce" trait).

@Colossian: Why did you take governments and turn them into traits? And, if I understand your Militaristic trait correctly, that is already a bonus of Charismatic. And what does "-25% foods at war" mean? And stuff like Nazism just doesn't jive with stuff like Financial, Philosophical, Charismatic, Protective, etc.

The thing is, if you want a new trait, specifically a science trait, you would have to change Financial (and others, maybe). Perhaps, give Financial double production on markets and banks, a bonus to the use of corporations, and remove its tile-based commerce ability. Then, you could give science +X% to scientific research and double production on science labs and observatories, if that works for you. However, until I get some play time with the new expansion, I don't want to try and mess around like that.

Overall, I'm quite happy with the current spread of traits in the game as well as the balance--they have struck a pretty nice chord amongst them all.

Something along the lines of combat I for all naval units with cheap harbours and drydocks was what I would have gone for a couple of weeks ago but the customs house would be even better than the drydocks. Would the value of expansive change that much if it were to recieve cheap aquaducts instead of cheap harbours? Aggressive could have recieved cheap stables instead of cheap drydocks. Drill I or flanking I could be instead of combat I (or maybe both of them).

You're right about what I said about an espionage trait. I was thinking of a trait which directly relates to the espionage slider. There is no such trait for culture, gold, and science, and the financial trait would also have to be changed.

The true value of Expansive is in the granaries, workes, and health. The cheap harbor is barely noticeable compared to the other bonuses.

So, if you wanted to set it up this way:

Expansive
+2 health
+25% worker production (nerfed in BtS)
double production on granaries and aqueducts

"Seafaring"
double production speed on harbors, drydocks, and customs houses

Aggressive
Free Combat I promotion to Melee and Gunpowder units
Double production on Barracks, Stables

But that still sounds like a lousy trait. Bring back the Civ3 +1 sea movement? Or stick with increased production on workboats? Or give all your ships "Drill I" promotion for free?

Well I would only go with 2 cheap buildings for a naval trait. Drydocks would be my least prefered of the 3 mentioned. That way the cheap buildings affect trade (which is where the value in the trait lies in my view) but other civs aren't as likely to refuse open borders as they would be if a straight bonus to trade routes were given.

Combat I for all naval units is my initial thought. Drill I is probably too weak by itself. Drill I combined with flanking I might be too strong. For naval units, medic might be an interesting possiblity for a free promotion.

For Seafaring how about

- can have trade route with Civs that have close boarders
- +50% commerce to trade routes if boarders with other Civs are open.
- double production speed on harbors, drydocks, and customs houses

Another bonus I guess could be a +1 Hammer to all water tiles, although that maybe to overpowered and would only be relevant to Water maps.

Yours sounds more like a smuggler trait. I would avoid something like "always can have trade routes with other civs" because that drastically affects civics (like mercantilism) and in general goes against the idea of a trait. The traits simply improve a feature of the game for your leader, not grant you incredible new powers.

The problem with a seafaring trait is that with the clever choice of a map, the trait is rendered useless. All the traits have utility, at the moment, on all different kinds of maps. Tying the usefulness of the trait specifically to the presence of water doesn't seem to jive with me.

I still believe it's better to have traits that are less specific to avoid some situations when it becomes basically useless (e.g. what's the point of having seafaring in a pangnea map?)

Some of my suggestions:


Diplomatic (avoid war and make the most out of deals): +25% war weariness on your opponent when he is the aggressor; +1 commerce per inter-civ trade route (+2 per intercontinental route)
Persevering (survive better in tough conditions): +1 food in bad tiles including tundra, desert, jungle and hill; all units +20% vs animal/barbarians and +5% healing per turn, cheap aqueducts/hospitals
Nomadic: palace and forbidden palace -50% cost, allows 2 forbidden palaces; all mounted units gets free flank I promotion, cheap stables

Antilogic:
The problem with a seafaring trait is that with the clever choice of a map, the trait is rendered useless. All the traits have utility, at the moment, on all different kinds of maps. Tying the usefulness of the trait specifically to the presence of water doesn't seem to jive with me.

Superb point - one that has me close to abondoning the idea of a trait related to overseas trade. The only way that I could see going about it would be to go down the imperialistic route and offer bonuses to two distinct areas of the game. One half of the trait going to trade and another to something else entirely.

I think that a seafaring bonus trait should be able to be useful no matter the map. What about something along these lines?
+25% ship production
Every "deep sea" tile produces 1 hammer
+2 on every sea tile that produces 3 or more food

I think they should beef up existing traits but also add in negative traits as well... here's a few of my suggestions:

Foppish: -1 from all male leaders who don't share this trait (Joao II for sure because he just looks faaaabullouussssss)

Flatulent: -10% culture in all cities as your entertainment industry degrades into just comedians making a lot of broad fart jokes directed at you... You also suffer an attitude hit from civs that immediately border you. Suleiman looks like he can pack away quite a bit. I'd imagine you want to keep your distance from him once the meal is over.

Clingy: -1 attitude from all male leaders. From the perspective of another player however, a leader with this trait will be really friendly with you until you refuse to convert to her religion or adopt her civic at which point she'll go completely ape and declare war on you. (Boudica, I'm lookin' your way...)

Lecherous: -1 Health in all cities (because whatever you've got, the peasant girls have it now too) and a negative attitude penalty to all female leaders.

Pompous: On to the French trait... This will give you -1 attitude from all other civs as well as giving +1 gold in rivals' cities after Printing Press as a whole new industry of cartoonists begin making a living off of drawing your charicature caught in comprising situations.

Paranoid: A city or two will periodically burn to the ground as you cackle over the ashes. Incidentally, you'll notice sharp declines in the attitudes of other civs towards you... but it's not because they're plotting against you... or are they? You should attack them first! Stalin, this one's for you, buddy.

But these are just a couple of suggestions... ;)

Have I ever mentioned the idea for a mod my friends came up with? A mod with all negative stereotypes, where all your traits are penalities? It would be all the easier with Charles de Gaulle already in the game. :)


@Ikael: But your trait there, is completely useless on Great Plains maps, for example. On Pangaea it would receive pretty limited use (along your coast). On Archipelago, it would be a beast. The thing is, a trait specifically tied to terrain isn't always useful or is way too useful.

If anything, gettingfat is on the right track. But I personally don't like "Perservering" for the same reason why I don't like the Seafaring traits. The name might have to be changed (I don't know, pick a Civ-ish adjective...Cordial? No, wrong word...) and its benefits adjusted, but the Diplomatic trait is something that is unique (we don't have a trait specifically addressing war weariness yet, although Charismatic's happiness bonus could be considered an indirect approach).