Don't you think Darius is a bit to dark for a persian?

http://i13.tinypic.com/4zaa8m0.png

Discuss.

The real question is: Wasn't Cyrus too light?

I think they both need to be moved closer toward each other so that they might look like they're actually from the same civilization.

They really should move out of the sun and push Cyrus into the sun.

He looks like he's real old, and has back problems.

It seems as if he is hunched over. To me he seems more frail than the Gandhi leader head.

It's partly the particular moment of the screenshot. He looks middle-aged overall I think.

Darius sorta looks like a women...

And the typical Persian is as light as Cyrus. I don't know why they made him so dark.

My friend is a persian and i would mistake him for a european any day.

There are quite a few skin tone/hair color oddities... Joao II is lighter than Willem van Oranje, Pericles is darker than Hammurabi (and so is Gilgamesh from the same area), Suleiman is darker and has a more yellowish tone than Mehmed despite probably having less Asiatic Turkic blood and so on.

Don't you think Darius is a bit to dark for a persian?

http://i13.tinypic.com/4zaa8m0.png

Discuss.

I think he looks a little too Egyptian to be Persian, what with all the mummification and all.

Darius sorta looks like a women...

And the typical Persian is as light as Cyrus. I don't know why they made him so dark.

My friend is a persian and i would mistake him for a european any day.

Persians also spent a lot more time outside than we do today. Actually that's probably true for most ancient peoples.

There are quite a few skin tone/hair color oddities... Joao II is lighter than Willem van Oranje, Pericles is darker than Hammurabi (and so is Gilgamesh from the same area), Suleiman is darker and has a more yellowish tone than Mehmed despite probably having less Asiatic Turkic blood and so on.

Yes but Darius is really of.

I'm glad they made him a little darker. It's nice to see Firaxis recognizes that there are shades between "white" and "black" that leaders can have, and since Cyrus is already so white looking, the Persians needed a little darker leader.

Please trolls, I don't care to hear how the Persians are the "true Aryan race" or any other silly argument about why Darius is too dark. There is no true Aryan race...

Do any of you really know how dark he was? Does ANYONE? I doubt it. Perhaps Persians today look lighter - gotcha. But does that mean that EVERY Persian is light-skinned? It's not like it is not at all possible that he could have been dark - maybe he has some Nubian blood or something.

I think it was the right decision not to add Xerxes again....after the 300 movie, I don't think they could ever pin down an image of the fellow. I'd love to see them just put in the actor from the movie...hehe :lol: "THE THOUSAND NATION OF THE PERSIAN EMPIRE DESCEND UPON YOU!"

I'm just waiting to play as the Greeks, get Leonidas as a great general (he actually is in the game as one), and try to hold off an entire Persian invasion with Leonidas attached to a phalanx.

First off, I think the Darius leaderhead in and of it self is really cool. He's one of the leaders I was really excited about, and I'm quite satisfied with the way he turned out. He certainly looks nothing like I would have expected, nor like what I would have done if I should try to make an artistic interpretation of him. Yet, the man we see before us could easily be imagined to be the model for the contemporary depictions that exists of him:

http://img150.imageshack.us/img150/5883/darius1bi5.jpg

Also, as said, we know little of the Achaemenids' skin tone - accounts from their time are more focused on their achievements and acts as rulers rather than their appearance. I think that isolated, the Darius leaderhead is an apt and interesting take at depicting him.

But, I say "isolated"... There's a minor detail here that's irking me. Darius was (or so he claimed anyway) the grandson of Cyrus II's (that's the Cyrus in Civ IV, in case you're not familiar with Persian history) great uncle. I think it's kind of weird to depict him as so incredibly different from his relative (though it would certainly be possible and even plausible for them to have been so different.) Furthermore, Darius was the father of this other chap you might have heard of:

http://img169.imageshack.us/img169/8774/xerxesilz1.jpg
Xerxes I, the fruitca.. ehm... I mean the "Great".

As you can see, there's somewhat of an inconsistency in Firaxis' artwork. Indeed the Darius we see before us in BtS seems far more likely to have had a son that would look something like this:

http://img167.imageshack.us/img167/3559/xerxeszz6.jpg

Might this be a nod to the popularity of Frank Miller's 300? Though and excellent comic book and movie, with an interesting use of artistic license, it pains me greatly that its depiction of the Persians have become so influential.

I don't know, I'm just rambling on here. At least our Darius is dressed as a Persian, and sports a stylish beard. His slightly "alien" appearance also gives him a touch of divinity, proper for an Achaemenid emperor. All in all, I'm happy with the way he turned out, and I'm looking forward to seeing him in my diplomacy window when BtS comes around :king:

I think he looks a little too Egyptian to be Persian, what with all the mummification and all.

i thought he also looked like a seriotypical egyptian priest or something. but at least he doesn't look like some girly mexican.

Yeah he dosent look persian to me. They have got pretty much caucasian features an darker then northern European skin, so, bscially in general they look simiar to Southern Europeans. Always exceptions of course,, here in Ireland you get 100% pure blood Irish who have sallow skin and blonde hair

I don't understand the criticism. Not every leader was beautiful, some were ugly by our standards. What's wrong with that? The description I've always heard of Justinian was that of a meek, pale man, as they did portray him so. I don't know much about the leader of Khmer, but is it too hard to imagine he wasn't appealing to the eyes?

Not every historical leader was a Prince Charming. You'll get used to them in a week tops after you being playing.

All of these leaderhead discussion threads are pointless because you know you'll get used to them in less than a week of playing.

Iranian man (http://www.cafod.org.uk/var/storage/images/media/cafod/images/middle_east/iran/bam_man/5510-1-eng-GB/bam_man_medium.jpg)

Don't see what the problem is.

Check out the dude on the right (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Tajiks3.jpg)

"Tajiks" is the name given to Persians in some of the central Asian nations (Afghanistan, Uzbekistan, etc).

I t doesn't really matter. I have known several Iranians and their skin color varies from pale, northern ueropean looking to darker, almost pakistani (skin color). He was supposed to be related to Cyrus (sorry I missed exactly how) but what does that matter since he had two parents (My youngest daughter has my olive, Spanish skin and my older one has my wife's Scottish/English skin). So his skin color I think is fine. His stance and demenor are another thing, he has an appearence that makes we want to send a hundred raging Beserkers to destroy his country (OK, perhaps his financial/organized trait may be causing that). I personally think he should have been holding a bag of gold to represent his traits!!!

(OK, perhaps his financial/organized trait may be causing that). I personally think he should have been holding a bag of gold to represent his traits!!!

Some put it in a bag, some wear it on their heads in the form of HUGE plates ;).

He also needs a Mustache

And some ear hair

Iranian man (http://www.cafod.org.uk/var/storage/images/media/cafod/images/middle_east/iran/bam_man/5510-1-eng-GB/bam_man_medium.jpg)

Don't see what the problem is.

Modern day Iranians are not of the same ethnicity as ancient Persians, even though they like to call themselves Persian.

He doesnt even look human. His eyes are very wierd... He looks like a monkey, baboon or something like that.

Yes but the only way Darius could be that dark, is if he had Nubian or Ethiopian blood in him. Which would be unlikely because Nubians and Ethiopians were used as slaves by the persians, enless of course it was a Nubian/Ethiopian Queen/King.

Modern day Iranians are not of the same ethnicity as ancient Persians, even though they like to call themselves Persian.

I doubt this- if all the invasions and colonizations in europe changed the collective gene pool there about a grand total of 5% from what the populations were in the neolithic and before, i dont think that whats gone on in Persia has much changed its ethnic make up either.

Modern day Iranians are not of the same ethnicity as ancient Persians, even though they like to call themselves Persian.

Source? I've never seen anything supporting that. Furthermore, if that is the case, we truly have no possible way of knowing what ancient Persians looked like, and thus this thread is 100% moot.

FWIW, here's wikipedia's take on the matter (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persians).

I don't have any other sources to back that up at the moment, though.

I'm not surprised they did this after looking at his civilopedia entry saying he ruled in the 1st century.:p :p :p :p :p :p :p

Exactly. Darius was certainly not a Slave. He wouldn't be to sun burned and being a relative of the white Cyrus, it seems weird for me.

Yes but the only way Darius could be that dark, is if he had Nubian or Ethiopian blood in him. Which would be unlikely because Nubians and Ethiopians were used as slaves by the persians, enless of course it was a Nubian/Ethiopian Queen/King.

Ummm you're wrong about that. Ethiopians emigrated to Egypt and eventually to Greece and Persia, and they mixed with the Egyptians as well as the Persians. The ancient world did not conceive of "race" as we know it...

actually, i think it IS possible for an Ancient Persian RULER/relative of ruler to have dark skin, if it is by diplomatic marriage. get it? and anyhow, i know that some Arabs do have pretty dark skin, and although Arabia =/= Persia, that shold tell us something, sohuold'nt it?

and on the being related to Cyrus... yes, it is probable if he is related to Cyrus then he shouln't be as dark, but... im pretty pale for a Vietnamese, and my cousin has a pretty bad tan, so it is possible.

Well i have a pretty bad Tan for being a Pole. (maybe it's my Spanish Side?) Well that's not the discussion.

And can anyone get info on if Darius' Mother/Father was Nubian/Ethiopian or something?

i checked on Wikipedia - Darius' predecessor conquered Egypt, and possibly married an Egyptian. so... that Egyptian girl could have had a pretty bad tan, or could've been part-Nubian/Ethiopian... so...

ok i can somewhat believe that he could've been that dark..

I think he's too dark, but I can attest to the fact that families can vary widely in skin color.

I'm the pastiest, whitest man on this planet... I've been referred to as "clear" on more than one occasion.

My uncle... not my grand uncle's grandson or equally removed relative... was as dark as Darius here. My father lies somewhere in between. Why so different? Aside from possibly dormant genes from earlier intermarrying, we come from a somewht diverse background. My skin color comes from my mom, an American-born woman of Scotch-Irish and Anglo descent.

I still think he's too dark, but I'd only want to make him a shade lighter and Cyrus perhaps a shade darker... thankfully, since these are not pre-rendered 2D graphics like in Civ3, one only needs a copy of Photoshop in order to mod these skin changes in. I think the facial features for both are fine, and so you wouldn't have to do any restructuring of the models to make it work IMO.

EDIT:

Just so I don't seem too serious today, Darius is also that dark because his mom had a bad case of jungle fever if you catch my drift... :groucho:

i checked on Wikipedia - Darius' predecessor conquered Egypt, and possibly married an Egyptian. so... that Egyptian girl could have had a pretty bad tan, or could've been part-Nubian/Ethiopian... so...

That would be Cyrus' son Cambyses, who was not Darius' father. Darius himself was, furthermore, a grown man during the Persian conquest of Egypt. Darius' father was named Hystaspes, an Achaemenid nobleman who fought in Cyrus' army, and later became governor of Parthia. No special mention is ever made of Darius' mother, though, at least AFAIK.

That would be Cyrus' son Cambyses, who was not Darius' father. Darius himself was, furthermore, a grown man during the Persian conquest of Egypt. Darius' father was named Hystaspes, an Achaemenid nobleman who fought in Cyrus' army, and later became governor of Parthia. No special mention is ever made of Darius' mother, though, at least AFAIK.

right, right, i wasn't thinking... though it would still be possible that due to historical descrepancies, Firaxis, which has good and excellent historical research capabilities, was able to discover an obscure but reliable text (a Greek and Roman source) that told us the general looks of Darius, though not the exact ones.

:)

I think he's too dark, but I can attest to the fact that families can vary widely in skin color.

I don't think so, my skin can have two colors, pale, transparent white or red.

When it's burned by the sun, which happens too often. :p

Apparently Persians can be from this light:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/f6/Divan_hafez_aks2.JPG

To this dark:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fe/Cyrus_portrait.jpg

Don't forget Persians are Indo-European though. :)

right, right, i wasn't thinking... though it would still be possible that due to historical descrepancies, Firaxis, which has good and excellent historical research capabilities, was able to discover an obscure but reliable text (a Greek and Roman source) that told us the general looks of Darius, though not the exact ones.

:)

Actually, I think we are putting to much into it. I think the artist just wanted to do something different, what with working on a leader whose appearance has been obscured by history and all, and I, for one, am pleasantly surprised by the way it turned out :)

it really isn't that bad, compared to some of the other "freak leaders"... they're all decent, but there is just something that makes you laugh...

WELCOME TO SID MEIER'S CIVILIZATIONNNNNNNNNNNNN CIRCUS!!!!

it really isn't that bad, compared to some of the other "freak leaders"... they're all decent, but there is just something that makes you laugh...

WELCOME TO SID MEIER'S CIVILIZATIONNNNNNNNNNNNN CIRCUS!!!!

:p :p :p :p :p :p

You're right it is not as bad as grandma justinian and suryavarman.:)

This is still strange though at least it is to me.

If firaxis added napoleon III and made him black what would you think(for now lets pretend there were no pics that showed skin color)?

Hey Napoleon was in Egypt he could have had a fling there.

Darius as a black man is ridiculous however they didn't give him deformities and diseases like some of the others.

Well, he's not black... his skin may be dark, but his features are clearly not African. I don't think anybody there was thinking up hypothetical situations of how he might come to be so dark. More likely than not, somebody just took some creative liberty, and this is what they came up with. Do I like it? Yes, I do. Am I going to mod it anyway to make it more realistic for a Persian leader? You bet!

Btw, I do think that 300 probably played a role in deciding the look of this leaderhead. Xerxes wasn't that dark in the movie, but some of the Persians were dark to the point that they reflected no light at all!

NO CHANGE, he's really cool this way :D

Well it isn't the ugliest leader head in the world. I would just change it a few shades lighter at just a bit darker then Cyrus because that's how Persians (in my opinion) look like. All my persian friends are as white as any european, i don't see what is so different from Darius.

Oh..... Cyrus was too white, Darius is too black.... C'mon!!!

But I have to agree that the BTS leaderheads are somehow.... errr...mumm..."strange", aren't they?

I think all there efforts for good leaderheads has gone into Boudica.

I think all there efforts for good leaderheads has gone into Boudica.

And most of those efforts were focused on her chest.

and most of those efforts was used in a way to show her nipples without the game becoming a T game or M game.

and most of those efforts was used in a way to show her nipples without the game becoming a T game or M game.

Those are shadows! You need to play less civ and go look at more cleavage, man! :cool:

no look closer. There are round shadows in the shadows. That would simulate a nipple.

no look closer. There are round shadows in the shadows. That would simulate a nipple.
:lol: How hard were you looking at them?

On topic, Darius is a disappointment to me. His skin color is off, and I agree with some others that he doesn't look human.

:lol: How hard were you looking at them?


Until he passed out from exertion... ;)

^ahem, family friendly??? ;)

He looks like a mummified t*rd with fungus fur growing around the edges and toothpicks for arms. All in all, a spot-on likeness of this famous 5th century B.C. monarch.

I think he looks a little too Egyptian to be Persian, what with all the mummification and all.

true true....

Well it isn't the ugliest leader head in the world. I would just change it a few shades lighter at just a bit darker then Cyrus because that's how Persians (in my opinion) look like. All my persian friends are as white as any european, i don't see what is so different from Darius.Well Darius came 2500 years before your Persian friends, LOL. And I'll remind you that there are many dark skinned peoples in South Asia.

Well Darius came 2500 years before your Persian friends, LOL. And I'll remind you that there are many dark skinned peoples in South Asia.

South Asia??

Iran is in West Asia or the Near East/Middle East. Pakistan, Afghanistan are considered South Asian if that.

I have never seen an dark skinned persian, and even if there are using a dark skinned Darius is not representative of a persian. Especially a royal family member did not spend there time bathing in the sun.

South Asia??

Iran is in West Asia or the Near East/Middle East. Pakistan, Afghanistan are considered South Asian if that.

I have never seen an dark skinned persian, and even if there are using a dark skinned Darius is not representative of a persian. Especially a royal family member did not spend there time bathing in the sun.We are aware that Iran is not considered part of S Asia. Posters were commenting on the possibility that Darius could have Ethio/Nubian blood, and it was curious that S Asia has been left out of the discussion.

Well, on the other hand... some have started shying away from the term "Middle East" and have instead started using the term "Southwest Asia"...

I highly doubt Darius was of ethiopian or nubian ancestry, his father was governor of Parthia. At his level of power, the stage of the Achaemenid empire, the likelihood of having a black african in his harem, of her giving birth to Darius and his father choosing him as his successor, on top of his accpetance of him being different not fully persian, etc. I just don't see it happening.

ohcrapitsnico: Who are you arguing with?? I don't see anybody submitting the hypothesis that Darius was of African ancestry....

well, lets do some logic here:

If a Persian had a child with a person who was of dark skin...

Then that child has a good chance of getting dark skin.

So, from that, we can infer that Firaxis, using their amazing historical knowledge, remembered that Darius' mother or father had dark skin.

On a more seriuos note, i would, as Dom Pedro suggested, just make the guy a tad bit lighter. As a noble/member of the rich people, his skin should be a bit lighter.

I highly doubt Darius was of ethiopian or nubian ancestry, his father was governor of Parthia. At his level of power, the stage of the Achaemenid empire, the likelihood of having a black african in his harem, of her giving birth to Darius and his father choosing him as his successor, on top of his accpetance of him being different not fully persian, etc. I just don't see it happening.

Hystaspes likely wasn't appointed to that position until after Darius was well grown. Besides, Darius coming to power was entirely his own doing. When Cambyses died Darius took control of his troops, and turned them against what he claimed to be a Magian usurper masquerading as Cambyses' brother. The reason Darius is so fond of mentioning that he is the son of Hystaspes, is because that meant he had Achaemenid blood (legitimating his claim to the throne), and it may well be that Hystaspes himself shunned his son until he became king.

Though, I agree that it's entirely unlikely that Darius' mother was African.

Though, I agree that it's entirely unlikely that Darius' mother was African.
His mother wouldn't need to be African for him to have dark skin. First of all, Africans aren't the only people in the world with dark skin. Secondly, the trait for darker skin could have come from anywhere up the line of ancestors. Two parents with light skin can produce a darker child, and two parents that are taller can produce a child that is shorter.

The view of many people towards genetics still seems to be overly essentialist and segregated.

I don't know what Darius' complexion was, but unlike some of you, I don't pretend to know either. It's amazing how obsessed people get with a simple suggestion about skin tone.

I don't know what Darius' complexion was, but unlike some of you, I don't pretend to know either. It's amazing how obsessed people get with a simple suggestion about skin tone.

Carver's right. its just a stupid bunch of pixels. if we all are that freaked out, we'll just go in the game files, take up a computer graphics program, and paint him over. :D

Wasn't there supposed to be another Egyptian leader in vanilla that was dropped (Menes, I think)? Maybe they just reused the art they already had, since the guy looks somewhat Egyptian to me.

^yeah, they were about to put in Menes/Narmer...

the guy does look similar to an Egyptian... it is posisble...

i wish they put in another Egyptian leader... :D

His mother wouldn't need to be African for him to have dark skin. First of all, Africans aren't the only people in the world with dark skin. Secondly, the trait for darker skin could have come from anywhere up the line of ancestors. Two parents with light skin can produce a darker child, and two parents that are taller can produce a child that is shorter.

If you'd actually care to read my posts in this thread in their entirety, you'd see I'm actually in favour of this particular depiction of Darius. I just suggested his mother wasn't African, not that he couldn't possibly have looked like that.

I wish the moderators would close this thread. It's rather annoying...

Darius sorta looks like a women...

And the typical Persian is as light as Cyrus. I don't know why they made him so dark.

My friend is a persian and i would mistake him for a european any day.

Agree totally. The average Persian is much fairer-skinned than our propagandist governments would have us believe, and back then they had been in Iran for about 300/400 years so they would not have been so accustomed to the sun yet, meaning even fairer skin.

Cyrus looks about right for a Persian leader, especially the hair colour.

Darius looks completely wrong. Maybe they wrongly thought Xerxes' portrayal in the film '300' was realistic (obviously it's not).

Well, on the other hand... some have started shying away from the term "Middle East" and have instead started using the term "Southwest Asia"...

That means ignoring the very ancient cultural bonds between Egypt, Syria, Palestine, Mesopotamia and Asia Minor.

They obviously made him that ugly so he wouldn't be perfect, awesome traits, good UB, great UU, BUT UGLY AS HELL!

He's not ugly. He's cool :D

this is really random, but you can barely see Darius' eyes. like some anime person.

this is really random, but you can barely see Darius' eyes. like some anime person.

Umm.. anime characters usually have huge eyes.

but some anime characters have no eyes at all

yes, i know some have big cute huge googly eyes that humans can never have.

I personally don't think the skin tone is that bad (not going to mention the rest of his appearance) although I would prefer if both Darius and Cyrus had skin slightly darker that Cyrus's is now. Considering the Amount of time Cyrus spent on campaign,I would expect his skin to be slightly darker than Darius's.

From what I've heard, the Persians actually called themselves what the Iranians now cal themselves, but this term is much closer to Iranian than to Persian.


Or course, it wasn't uncommon for the royalty of ancient countries to have a different appearance than the commoners. Even in ancient times Monarchs tended to intermarry with the Royalty of other countries more than with their subjects. Ramses the Great is always clearly described in ancient sources an having red hair, which isn't very common in Egypt.
(Also, the Bible describes Israel's King David as a fair skinned red head, and his son Solomon as having dark hair but still unusually fair skin)

http://300themovie.info/gallery/maleki.jpg He should look like this