http://www.civfanatics.net/methos/hof/staff/gauntlet.gifDue to both G-minor 21 (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=228961) and G-Major 13 (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=228963) being Warlords only gauntlets, we have decided to add a third gauntlet this update, to include our Vanilla only players. We give you G-Minor 22...

While the general Hall of Fame is an ongoing competition, we like to run time-definite competitions between updates that we call Gauntlets. Standard Hall of Fame rules (*) still apply, but any games meeting the settings will be counted towards the Gauntlet.

(*) Please read the >> HOF rules << (http://hof.civfanatics.net/civ4/rules.php) BEFORE playing!


Settings:

Victory Condition: Culture (though all victory conditions must be enabled)
Difficulty: Prince
Starting Era: Ancient
Map Size: Standard
Map Type: Continents
Speed: Epic
Civ: Qin Shi Huang (China)
Opponents: Any
Version: 1.61.011
Date: June 27th to July 9th
The earliest finish date wins, with score as a tiebreaker.

Note: This is a Vanilla only gauntlet. Warlords players are welcome to check out G-minor 21 (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=228961) which is played as Korea. Good luck!

Thank you. Yes I know I should upgrade. Maybe I will once I have mastered Vanilla, but it looks like I still have a long way to go.

Yes I know I should upgrade. Maybe I will once I have mastered Vanilla, but it looks like I still have a long way to go.

Honestly, I'd wait until the BTS expansion comes out. The main Warlords content (not scenarios) will be included.

Aaargh. Now I have to do GMinor 22, GMajor 13, GMinor 21, and GOTM20, plus upcoming SGOTM5. Maybe I could just forget about sleeping.

Aaargh. Now I have to do GMinor 22, GMajor 13, GMinor 21, and GOTM20, plus upcoming SGOTM5. Maybe I could just forget about sleeping.

Well atleast the BTS release is almost a month away or you'd really be doomed to sleepless nights.:lol:

Aaargh. Now I have to do GMinor 22, GMajor 13, GMinor 21, and GOTM20, plus upcoming SGOTM5. Maybe I could just forget about sleeping.

looks like we might be recruiting players for our team though...Jenarie has no vanilla disc and Mark may not play

edit: I'm farther behind than you...I've got G-Minors 21 and 22, G-Major 13, GOTM20, WOTM10, SGOTM5, and I've still got to finish the SGOTM4 spoiler post!

http://www.civfanatics.net/methos/hof/staff/gauntlet.gifDue to both G-minor 21 (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=228961) and G-Major 13 (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=228963) being Warlords only gauntlets, we have decided to add a third gauntlet this update, to include our Vanilla only players. We give you G-Minor 22...

Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you :goodjob:

We are financial, we aren't Philo, it is obvious that we should use 3 cottaged cities. But I wanted to try something new, being Prince, so I used a cottage city, a wonders city and a GPfarm as legendary cities.

1670AD victory. Joined 1+0+7 GPs. 1sci Acad, 1 sci for Educ, 2 useless GP. 4 founded religions plus 1 spread. 15 cathedrals.

I expanded too slowly, having too many objectives half-heartledly followed: Tried to kill 1 AI (failed), Oracle+Part+Pyram, fast tech pace. Alpha in 2080BC, Liber in 500AD, 100% culture in 1300AD.

Next game I'll get 3 cottage cities, with lots of hammers. I'll get an early religion, so that I don't have to research DivRi. I'll go REX initially. I will use Org Reli the whole game.

EDIT: it was a corn+2gold start. It took me only 10 hours, my personal record!

Seems like Pacifism is even more important when you're not Philo. Pacifism is only +50% rate for a Philo leader. It's a full +100% for Qin.

I won't be competing as I have retired from Civ IV. Probably be back around October with BTS.

I won't be competing as I have retired from Civ IV. Probably be back around October with BTS.You do know it comes out in 3 weeks. don't you? Or are you factoring in how long you think it will take us to get a HOF Mod for it? :mischief:

Next game I'll get 3 cottage cities, with lots of hammers.

You know ... I *dream* of 3 cottage cities with lots of hammers :lol: Still searching ...

You do know it comes out in 3 weeks. don't you? Or are you factoring in how long you think it will take us to get a HOF Mod for it? :mischief:

:lol: I have a few vacations coming and I usually like to wait for at least 1 patch to a new game. This isn't quite a new game though. In general I'm looking for any reason to take a break from the game. But, you're right. By the time I come back, hopefully there's a new HoF for BTS and a new QM. I'll still be lurking.

Seems like Pacifism is even more important when you're not Philo. Pacifism is only +50% rate for a Philo leader. It's a full +100% for Qin.

Hmmm, that's true. But only if you think of it in terms of efficiency. As you know 100% of 0 is 0. Let me explain:

Cottages are better than artist in the big-three this game. With Globe I can run 5 artist in my GPfarm; it seems enough for a non Philo leader. So I don't run CS but slavery. If I am running so few artists Pacifism is not so attractive (in absolute terms). So I run OR all game long.

In summary: I am emphasizing hammers, instead of food or GPPoints. My goal is not to have a lot of commerce nor a lot of GA, but early cathedrals. If this strategy works, I will try another assault to current Deity-Culture HOF records ;) .

What do you think of this strat?

Cottages are better than artist in the big-three this game. With Globe I can run 5 artist in my GPfarm; it seems enough for a non Philo leader. So I don't run CS but slavery. If I am running so few artists Pacifism is not so attractive (in absolute terms). So I run OR all game long.


So your globe+national epic goes for non three or is that exception to cottagerule? At least sounds like globe+national would give nice culture as they are not too expensive. And if it is you try to cottagespam floodplainy and or foody area so that rest can cottage?

-Dracandross

So your globe+national epic goes for non three or is that exception to cottagerule? At least sounds like globe+national would give nice culture as they are not too expensive. And if it is you try to cottagespam floodplainy and or foody area so that rest can cottage?

-Dracandross

Yes, my GPfarm won't be one of the three in this gauntlet.
It was in my first try, but I won't do it again as long as I have cottageable land available for 3 cities.

In summary: I am emphasizing hammers, instead of food or GPPoints.

What do you think of this strat?

I learned that this strat can be very powerful. I used it on the Duel size HoF culture game cus it's easy to get a lot of wonders. However, you don't need wonders. I believe the secret is to NOT build cathedrals until ~300 AD. You do need early religions though so you have something to build (temples, monasteries, lib, theatre, etc.)

Some questions for Jesusin, or anyone else who cares to comment:

How many religions are optimal? In my current game I have three: I founded Confucianism and Taoism, while Buddhism spread from a neighbor. Jesusin says he had five religions in his first attempt. How the heck do you do that? Is it really worth the time to research monotheism, theology, or divine right in order to found those religions?

Do you build essentially all the wonders you can? A related question: for a fast finish, do you find it necessary to have access to both marble and stone?

I've been shutting down research after Liberalism. Aside from things like Music, Drama and Literature, I basically research nothing that isn't on the path to Liberalism. Is this best?

Getting five religions is possible if you have enough commerce in your starting position and you pop one or two of them with great people / Oracle / Liberalism. The real question is whether that is too costly in terms of what you are missing out on while chasing the religions. I would have thought three would have been OK as some of the others will probably spread to you anyway. in GMinor 21 I am easily founding 5 religions but not doing very well, so founding religions is certainly no guarantee of success.

I would not have thought that Stone was essential in this game but Marble certainly seems to help. Unless you are going for Pyramids to get Universal Suffrage. But then Jesusin says you don't need either of these things if you follow his hammertime strategy.

Overall though, it seems that for a fast finish you need as many great artists as you can, so it can be a hindrance to have any of the non GA wonders.

The formula for quick finish seems to be:
- all GPs are Artists
- get cathedrals
- cottage the crap out of everything

Some questions for Jesusin, or anyone else who cares to comment:

Don't ask me! Seize your chance and ask WastinTime while he is around!

How many religions are optimal? In my current game I have three: I founded Confucianism and Taoism, while Buddhism spread from a neighbor. Jesusin says he had five religions in his first attempt. How the heck do you do that? Is it really worth the time to research monotheism, theology, or divine right in order to found those religions?

3 is the minimum for a very good game. More than 5 is not cost-effective, since missionaries fail so often. 4 seems to be the perfect point, maybe five.
I researched DivRi in my posted game, I am not sure it was worth it, shortly after that a new religion spread. If we started with Myst, like Minor21, I would sacrifice some growth going for hindu, then confu+tao would be founded naturally, and I would hope for a fourth to spread.

Do you build essentially all the wonders you can? A related question: for a fast finish, do you find it necessary to have access to both marble and stone?

No! I am the one who says you should never build any WW in culture-Deity! Maybe Parthenon is worth it. This being Prince, I recommend building Parthenon and maybe Oracle if you know how to not pop a GP. Then, if you have lots of hammers and you can't build temples/cathedrals (meaning that it is a bad game?) you could build TajMaj or Sistine or other GA-WW, mostly for their direct culture.

I've been shutting down research after Liberalism. Aside from things like Music, Drama and Literature, I basically research nothing that isn't on the path to Liberalism. Is this best?

Yes, I firmly believe so.

Concerning religions, I founded six in my first game for the gauntlet. It wasn't such a great game, as my goals were too diverted. But it really isn't that hard to found so many religions (research polytheism, beeline monotheism, oracle col, prophet theology and the last two are from your tech lead).

I think 3 or 4 religions may be sufficient, yet I don't know exactly.

have lots of hammers and you can't build temples/cathedrals (meaning that it is a bad game?) you could build TajMaj or Sistine or other GA-WW, mostly for their direct culture.


If you are hammer oriented and cottaging why not pyramids+suff as you really dont get much out of monarchy on culture on low levels. Cottages would give end game hammer each+luxury of buying things every once in a while. As you can easily have pop of 15 that would mean 7.5 culture even if just doing prod with bonuses that woulda mean another 30 or so. Am i missing something. Of course going for it means saving from elsewhere is that too big of a loss?

Stupid gamespeed, cant put many games in this one. Shoulda been normal...

-Dracandross

If you are hammer oriented and cottaging why not pyramids+suff as you really dont get much out of monarchy on culture on low levels. Cottages would give end game hammer each+luxury of buying things every once in a while. As you can easily have pop of 15 that would mean 7.5 culture even if just doing prod with bonuses that woulda mean another 30 or so. Am i missing something. Of course going for it means saving from elsewhere is that too big of a loss?

Lots of ideas here and I don't think I have fully understood them. Please forgive me and allow me to be a bit simplistic here:
- Cash-buying transforms commerce (that could have been directly translated into culture) into hammers. Choosing to build culture transforms hammers into culture. I don't think doing both things at the same time is such a good idea.
- If I were to build the Pyramids I wouldn't be building settlers, so my developement would be damaged, so I wouldn't call that game a hammer-oriented one.

By the way, I have never had 15 towns in a city. I feel I have "cottage-spammed" when I have 10, but usually I can't have three 10-town cities in the same game. Maybe i should start cottaging plains? Hmmm, I know why I have never done that, it is because I whip my plains-working people.

Stupid gamespeed, cant put many games in this one. Shoulda been normal...
Hey, I was thinking the same this morning!:) My second try will be my last one.:sad:

By the way, I have never had 15 towns in a city. I feel I have "cottage-spammed" when I have 10, but usually I can't have three 10-town cities in the same game. Maybe i should start cottaging plains? Hmmm, I know why I have never done that, it is because I whip my plains-working people.

Well, yea whipping extensively might slow you down on max growth. Well now i can see better why it won't help so much. I try to avoid places that don't have food of 24+ at 12 squares to get enough cottages. Btw how many workers you have on cultural games and how fast ya get em.

I'll try warrior-rush today to see if it helps. Warriors are so cheap and 4 should be enough to take city.

-Dracandross

Btw how many workers you have on cultural games and how fast ya get em.

I usually have 1 per city. But I don't recommend doing that, they are too few. I know I should build more. I find annoying that they keep asking me what to do every turn in the final phase of the game, when I really don't want them to do anything. Maybe I should aim for 5 workers for 5 cities, 11 workers for 9 cities. Maybe even more.

I usually have 1 per city. But I don't recommend doing that, they are too few. I know I should build more. I find annoying that they keep asking me what to do every turn in the final phase of the game, when I really don't want them to do anything. Maybe I should aim for 5 workers for 5 cities, 11 workers for 9 cities. Maybe even more.

If you don't want them to do anything important, automate them. In the options check off "leave existing improvements" and "leave forests" (if you want). They'll either hang out in cities or build roads and useless improvements. Either way you don't have to worry about them.

I usually have 1 per city. But I don't recommend doing that, they are too few. I know I should build more. I find annoying that they keep asking me what to do every turn in the final phase of the game, when I really don't want them to do anything. Maybe I should aim for 5 workers for 5 cities, 11 workers for 9 cities. Maybe even more.

Kill them, kill them all, they cost commerce! But takes lots early from the AI and work em good, when there's nothing to do, send them to the slaughterhouse:ar15: and no unions!

I keep my workers all the time. When my culture extends, they swarm out to chop those useless forests. At least that gives some hammers to a town. When there is nothing to do, I "f"ortify them.

Btw, just finished my second game, but was 7 years later than my first :(

The hammer oriented peaceful cultural game.

2gold, 1 sheep, 7 FP start. At 1AD it seemed like a good game.
1AD stats: 6 cities, 150bpt, 2/14 temples built, 13/14 cottages worked, Parthenon and Oracle, half of Education but no Music, 4 religions founded, space for 2-3 more cities, 2GP (for Theocracy and Academy). NE built, 2 artist hired. 2 workers stolen from Gandhi. No other wars.

The worst mistake came very early, when I started building Wonders. I had two cities and 2 settlers had just been produced. I chose to build Parthenon in the capital (max hammers city) while building Oracle+Library in the second city. That way, I would hire 2 scientists sooner for my GS and Academy. As a result, GP and GS probabilities got mixed and luck gave me a GP instead of the desired GS. I got my GS and Academy 25 turns later, soon before AD, when it was only very slightly better than lighbulbing part of Education. I run the risk of a second GP. Also delaying the working of cottages in the second city. It was right to hire scientist in the second city, as I didn’t want to stop working the 2 golds in the bureaucracy-powered capital. But I should have built Oracle in the capital and Parthenon+Library in the second city. That way I would have enjoyed the direct benefit of a library in the capital sooner and the second city would have popped a GA or a GS, both very
useful.

The best decision was building the second city not in the most research site, not in the further site to reserve more territory, not in the GPfarm or best Legendary site, not in the best site long-term, but in the place where it had more immediate food+hammers.

Minor mistakes:
Late revolt to OR and declaration of state religion, because I was waiting for one of my religions to spread to my neighbor in order to choose that one.
Late Library in capital.

So at 1AD I have just gifted them Alphabet to make them tech faster.


At 1000AD things look dimmer. They have never researched Maths, so I have had to research it myself. Had I known, I would have researched Maths+Music much sooner, thus winning additional hammers from chops and additional culture from earlier settled free artist. I settled 2 artist and bombed 7, but I settled thm in the wrong city: when you bomb you want to do it in the worst city, since the 6000c don't get multipliers anyway. Settled artist get multipliers, so I should have used Hermitage and settled artists in the ame city, using all bombs in the other one, not half/half as I did. Big mistake. Last GA settled was 420AD, he added exactly 6510c, plus some gold.
It doesn't look better because I have 13-13-11 raw hammers in my cities. That's not a lot of production. Also, the long wait for Maths has make my cities grow too much for whipping to be efficient now. Anyway, I whipped my mine-workers to produce my last Cathedral in every city. Couldn't trade for Print or Economy :(

1625AD victory, 5 cathedrals in every legendary city, 10 cottages per legendary city. No copper, so 2 of the 5 cathedrals were double prized. 11GP in all. Important dates:
4 cities 1000BC
6 cities 1AD
9 cities 830AD (a bit late)
Liberalism 500AD
100% culture 1200AD (I was accumulating gold not to rush buy but to be able to use 100%c the whole late game).
45 religions*city 1250AD
45 temples built 1352AD
3 cathedrals 920AD
6 cathedrals 1112AD
9 cathedrals 1268AD
12 cathedrals 1322AD
15 cathedrals 1400AD

I am happy with my worker/city ratio: 5workers with 4 cities, 9 workers with 7 cities, 9 workers at the end (I spared their life bc they costed no money). After building the cathedrals, I would get 2 GA doing nothing. If I revolted to pacifism I would get 3. But a little straving of the GPfarm at the end of the game would give me 3 too, without an anarquy turn, but with a probability of 90% instead of 100%. I "gambled", I starved and won 1 turn. Had I had bad luck, I would have lost 1 turn instead.

My date can be easily improved. Just conquer 1-2 AI capitals, get more mines in the big three, more food for much more whipping, get copper, don't allow the Oracle city to pop a GP, use your GA inteligently. I also think that a 3 corn start would be better than this 2 gold start. Good luck everybody.


EDIT: I forgot to talk about my tech path: Pottery-Alphabet-Monoteism-CS slingshot-Philo-(should have been Music)-Theology-Liberalism.

Great writeup jesusin and thanks!

How long is this going to run exactly?
I just don't want to start a game, not being able to finish it in time.

How long is this going to run exactly?
I just don't want to start a game, not being able to finish it in time.

We don't close the gauntlets until we do the update, which is scheduled for the 10th. Granted, sometimes it runs a little late, so the gauntlet's close date gets pushed back as well.

I've been shutting down research after Liberalism. Aside from things like Music, Drama and Literature, I basically research nothing that isn't on the path to Liberalism. Is this best?

If you have a lot of cottages maturing to towns, printing press is probably worth the effort!

Does anyone know if it would be strategically best to concentrate on two cities to get them up to 1000 cpt faster, and then culture bomb the last city from ~51K to 75K?

Does anyone know if it would be strategically best to concentrate on two cities to get them up to 1000 cpt faster, and then culture bomb the last city from ~51K to 75K?

Read WastinTime post in minor 21 thread, he advocates for that strategy.

I have been a year trying to find the best strategy for Cultural Deity. Still learning. I think your proposed strategy is the best possible when you are Philosophical and you have no space for 9 cities. In other situations it is a very good strategy, but I don't know if it is the best one.

Kill them, kill them all, they cost commerce! But takes lots early from the AI and work em good, when there's nothing to do, send them to the slaughterhouse:ar15: and no unions!

:) I can tune into this. But it depends on whether they are actually costing you anything. In a peaceful game, they are free because your military is limited to 9 warriors plus any units that arrive from cities revolting and joining your empire from culture. So you can support a lot of workers! I just automate them - it can be useful, because the first thing they will do is link up and improve resources on the edges of your territory. This can then provide trade opportunities once the AI reaches astronomy ...

I would never in my wildest dreams ever automate my workers. I need all the help I can get to win my games and every improvement needs to be precisely planned for me to have any chance. How does a worker know that I am trying to pay lip-service to the cottage economy? Or that this city is desperately trying to imitate a Great Person farm?

they don't, but if you turn on the option to not allow them to change improvements, and that they can't chop forests, they'll do everything else fine.

The Gauntlet is concluded. Congratulations to the victors:

G-Minor 22 (http://hof.civfanatics.net/civ4/gauntlet.php?show=minor&gauntlet=51&submit=Go) was won by killercane. jesusin placed second, almost a century later. Moonsinger came in third yet another century later, edging out Dracandross at the same date by score tiebreaker.

Does anyone know if it would be strategically best to concentrate on two cities to get them up to 1000 cpt faster, and then culture bomb the last city from ~51K to 75K?

Well done killercane!!!

Did you follow that strategy in your winning game?
A detailled write-up would be most appreciated.

No really the only difference was the better traits of Qin and having 3 artists to top each city off. I'll try to do a writeup today when I have a chance.

I took 2 cities from the AI with a warrior rush, and also stole a worker from the Greeks in ~2300 BC.

Research
-Med-Poly-Alphabet, skipping monotheism (a newer tactic, they sometimes get to Mono first but it saves time in being able to trade masonry but try to hold on to Poly.
-I meant to Oracle Music to settle the artist early but didnt realize you need math for that. So I took CoL.
-Then math, Civil service, research Theology, and on to liberalism via the normal route. I have taken to researching Theo and use an early prophet on a religious wonder.
-Liberalism in 560 AD.

Stuff built
Stonehenge- capital, built 2140 BC. Kind of late imo, but no stone was connected yet.
Oracle- Persepolis, built 1450 BC
Great Libe- capital, built 850 BC
Parthenon- Persepolis, built 835 BC
Kong Miao- 3rd city with all the artists that settled, built 730 BC
Hanging Gardens- capital, built 400 BC
Sistine Chapel- 35 AD
Notre Dame- 140 AD
I think those are all the noteworthy wonders. I usually build Globe late.

Shanghai and Persepolis were pretty good cities but the third city was kind of food poor so thats why it got settled artists +Hermitage. I began a "9 cities war" in 425 AD to get those other cathedrals built; this could and should have been done earlier.

I cant stress enough the importance of whipping. Whipping cathedrals rather than building them straightup is very strong, whip em as soon as you can. And whipping stuff (temples/missionaries) from the peripheral cities is essential.

Thank you very much for your write-up. I enjoy immensely comparing my way of playing to others, so I can learn new things.

Impressive figures at 1000AD. Have you considered assaulting current HOF deity culture records?

I would like to share my ideas when comparing our games:

First a few doubts:
- Your capital is pop=5. There are lots of farms around, but you are not working them, why?
- You have settled 5 artists and you have bombed 9 at the end of the game. Your artist probability in your GPfarm is around 60% (GLIB again! J). You must have had some 20-24GP in all. How did you get to have so many? Your GPPpt in 1000AD do not look spectacular. (?)
- You founded h and b. I couldn’t found any of them in any of my tries. That means I chose my rivals very wrongly. I chose them peaceful, but I shouldn’t have been scared of war with prince AI. I chose them good researchers, but they didn’t offer me much in trades anyway.

Comments:
- Pop=5 in the capital in 1000AD? You are certainly whipping more than me!
- You have 7 cathedrals+Hermitage in 1000AD. I had 4. Your game is much more hammer-oriented than mine. But you are not working every available mine as I did, you are farming and whipping. I didn’t whip much in my games because I wanted to work my cottages and mines. I imagine that the 2 captured cities have had a great impact here.
- Liberalism 560AD, the same date as me.
- You have more GPPpt than me, but no so much more.
- My base culture was 90%commerce, 0%artists, 10%buildings. Your base culture is something like 60%buildings, 20%artists, 20%commerce. I think the main difference lies here, the key to your victory. I said at the beginning of the Gauntlet that commerce was better than artists. You have showed me that wonders were better than both commerce and artists. At least with an industrious leader in Prince level.

Things you could have done better IMHO:
- A minor detail, instead of being all the late game at 90% culture you could have been the first 10% of the turns at 0% and the rest at 100%. That way uses the new cathedrals bonus better.
- A big improvement (it is only my opinion, I could be wrong): you put the Hermitage in the worst city and then bombed 3 artists in each city. You should have put the Hermitage in your best city and have bombed 0-4-5 or 0-3-6. Bombing in the best or worst city doesn’t make any difference in terms of culture, 6000c anyway. Building the Hermitage in your best-base-culture city would have produced more culture than it produced in the worst one.

I would never in my wildest dreams ever automate my workers. I need all the help I can get to win my games and every improvement needs to be precisely planned for me to have any chance.

No, that's right, I wouldn't automate anything critical either!

I didn't mean that I automate workers in the early game. But in most games there comes a point where there is nothing specific needing to be done and you have workers asking to be given instructions. If you do as Thrallia says and check the options saying no changing improvements & chopping forests etc, then click the button to build trade routes automatically, the worker will improve the routes between your cities and will also mine/farm/plantation any resource that has *not* been improved and link it to your road network. Sometimes I don't notice that my boundaries have expanded and there's a new resource right on my border because I'm too busy looking at my cities, but my automated workers will notice it and deal with it. It works ok, honest.

Thank you very much for your write-up. I enjoy immensely comparing my way of playing to others, so I can learn new things.

Impressive figures at 1000AD. Have you considered assaulting current HOF deity culture records?

I would like to share my ideas when comparing our games:

First a few doubts:
- Your capital is pop=5. There are lots of farms around, but you are not working them, why?
- You have settled 5 artists and you have bombed 9 at the end of the game. Your artist probability in your GPfarm is around 60% (GLIB again! J). You must have had some 20-24GP in all. How did you get to have so many? Your GPPpt in 1000AD do not look spectacular. (?)
- You founded h and b. I couldn’t found any of them in any of my tries. That means I chose my rivals very wrongly. I chose them peaceful, but I shouldn’t have been scared of war with prince AI. I chose them good researchers, but they didn’t offer me much in trades anyway.

Comments:
- Pop=5 in the capital in 1000AD? You are certainly whipping more than me!
- You have 7 cathedrals+Hermitage in 1000AD. I had 4. Your game is much more hammer-oriented than mine. But you are not working every available mine as I did, you are farming and whipping. I didn’t whip much in my games because I wanted to work my cottages and mines. I imagine that the 2 captured cities have had a great impact here.
- Liberalism 560AD, the same date as me.
- You have more GPPpt than me, but no so much more.
- My base culture was 90%commerce, 0%artists, 10%buildings. Your base culture is something like 60%buildings, 20%artists, 20%commerce. I think the main difference lies here, the key to your victory. I said at the beginning of the Gauntlet that commerce was better than artists. You have showed me that wonders were better than both commerce and artists. At least with an industrious leader in Prince level.

Things you could have done better IMHO:
- A minor detail, instead of being all the late game at 90% culture you could have been the first 10% of the turns at 0% and the rest at 100%. That way uses the new cathedrals bonus better.
- A big improvement (it is only my opinion, I could be wrong): you put the Hermitage in the worst city and then bombed 3 artists in each city. You should have put the Hermitage in your best city and have bombed 0-4-5 or 0-3-6. Bombing in the best or worst city doesn’t make any difference in terms of culture, 6000c anyway. Building the Hermitage in your best-base-culture city would have produced more culture than it produced in the worst one.
I wasnt clear when I said I had 3 artists to top each city off, it was an artist for each individual city (3 total, saving 6 turns on the backend of the game). The only way to have gotten that many great people is to be in caste system, which is never gonna work since whipping is so darn good.

1) size 5 cap- Its not my capital, it is the other Chinese leader's (Mao) former capital taken in the early game. It had just whipped a cathedral, and is growing back this turn so no need for farms; I dont remember for sure, I think it was one of those grow in 2 regardless kind of situations as I always like to set the cities to max growth (and usually check kind of obsessively that they are growing). Plus I am in golden age here so I figured cottages were best. Really it is a poor city, but it did have gems for early research, each early city had a commerce resource making it a good map.

2) I didnt have that many GP. You really cant take the time/loss of production to switch to caste system. Now if like you suggested, use Hermitage and concentrate cathedrals on the best 2 cities, and culture bomb the last one, it may be overall time saving to switch to caste at the end and turn every citizen to an artist in your biggest cities to get 1 or 2 more.

3) I didnt found Buddhism (I think thats what you mean by h and b). I go straight for Hinduism (to open lit and mono). Hopefully a neighbor founds Buddhism and you can go take them out. Having all the religions is great, since you can whip out everything with enough food. My rivals were non spiritual and non industrious.

4) I believe it is a combination of whipping and free cities for sure. However, even if you do it straight up (without picking on AIs), the additional settlers are just a matter of later Stonehenge/Parthenon and some forest chops. If you go with the 2 city approach you can just found a third city that produces workers/settlers/gets the settled artists.

5) I think that wonders are indeed good with the culture doubling effect. The early cathedrals then have that much more of an impact. Normally it is not so good to whip a cottage city excessively, but with the building culture added in it is best imo. Whip whip whip as soon as you can; you shouldnt be working a lot of mines after 1 AD. Industrious really doesnt come into play much until you build the more expensive Sistines, Notre Dame, whatever around the 1 AD mark (since you are forest chopping early). Protective Wang came out almost as well, but I had 3 artists here to top each city off, barely missing by something like 11 culture being done a turn earlier (1526). Huyana would be pretty great for this strategy (he almost always is), since his UB would give you an additional 1000 culture roughly, he is better at taking cities with his UU, and he has Qin's traits in Warlords.

6) Indeed i am used to Warlords and not having to put the money slider all the way down. Finding the other continent to get some $$$ is something that should be done as early as possible.

7) I think you are correct, but it is difficult to say. I can usually get the cities relatively balanced out, but accelerating two and counting on artists in the third city with a no GL approach might work a bit better. I was kind of afraid the other 2 cities would run away from the weak Beijing and I wouldnt have enough artists to cover the deficit since the GP pool is polluted.

I wasnt clear when I said I had 3 artists to top each city off, it was an artist for each individual city (3 total, saving 6 turns on the backend of the game). The only way to have gotten that many great people is to be in caste system, which is never gonna work since whipping is so darn good.

1) size 5 cap- Its not my capital, it is the other Chinese leader's (Mao) former capital taken in the early game. It had just whipped a cathedral, and is growing back this turn so no need for farms; I dont remember for sure, I think it was one of those grow in 2 regardless kind of situations as I always like to set the cities to max growth (and usually check kind of obsessively that they are growing). Plus I am in golden age here so I figured cottages were best. Really it is a poor city, but it did have gems for early research, each early city had a commerce resource making it a good map.

2) I didnt have that many GP. You really cant take the time/loss of production to switch to caste system. Now if like you suggested, use Hermitage and concentrate cathedrals on the best 2 cities, and culture bomb the last one, it may be overall time saving to switch to caste at the end and turn every citizen to an artist in your biggest cities to get 1 or 2 more.

3) I didnt found Buddhism (I think thats what you mean by h and b). I go straight for Hinduism (to open lit and mono). Hopefully a neighbor founds Buddhism and you can go take them out. Having all the religions is great, since you can whip out everything with enough food. My rivals were non spiritual and non industrious.

4) I believe it is a combination of whipping and free cities for sure. However, even if you do it straight up (without picking on AIs), the additional settlers are just a matter of later Stonehenge/Parthenon and some forest chops. If you go with the 2 city approach you can just found a third city that produces workers/settlers/gets the settled artists.

5) I think that wonders are indeed good with the culture doubling effect. The early cathedrals then have that much more of an impact. Normally it is not so good to whip a cottage city excessively, but with the building culture added in it is best imo. Whip whip whip as soon as you can; you shouldnt be working a lot of mines after 1 AD. Industrious really doesnt come into play much until you build the more expensive Sistines, Notre Dame, whatever around the 1 AD mark (since you are forest chopping early). Protective Wang came out almost as well, but I had 3 artists here to top each city off, barely missing by something like 11 culture being done a turn earlier (1526). Huyana would be pretty great for this strategy (he almost always is), since his UB would give you an additional 1000 culture roughly, he is better at taking cities with his UU, and he has Qin's traits in Warlords.

6) Indeed i am used to Warlords and not having to put the money slider all the way down. Finding the other continent to get some $$$ is something that should be done as early as possible.

7) I think you are correct, but it is difficult to say. I can usually get the cities relatively balanced out, but accelerating two and counting on artists in the third city with a no GL approach might work a bit better. I was kind of afraid the other 2 cities would run away from the weak Beijing and I wouldnt have enough artists to cover the deficit since the GP pool is polluted.

Do you find whipping preferable to "cash rushing" with Universal Sufferage? That seems counterintuitive to me since you can buy your temples and so forth without sacrificing population.

When do you move the slider to 100% culture? Do you wait until all, or almost all, cathedrals are built?

I've been using your starting save and trying to replicate or improve upon your results. I can tech to Liberalism faster, but I must be doing something wrong after that because my finish dates are later.

Research
-Med-Poly-Alphabet,

Oh, that’s what mislead me about budism. I imagine you meant Myst-Poly.

I think it was one of those grow in 2 regardless kind of situations as I always like to set the cities to max growth (and usually check kind of obsessively that they are growing).

Same here, but I go a degree further and would calculate the turn of the second city growth, adjusting to farms if needed to accelerate the second pop birth.


Do you find whipping preferable to "cash rushing" with Universal Sufferage? That seems counterintuitive to me since you can buy your temples and so forth without sacrificing population.

IMO US is too expensive. 3g per 1h is not a good conversion rate. 3g could have meant 3 raw culture or 9-12 total culture. For a single hammer. When you whip you only lose the output of the tiles you stop working.
Let's see what the expert says, anyway.

Do you find whipping preferable to "cash rushing" with Universal Sufferage? That seems counterintuitive to me since you can buy your temples and so forth without sacrificing population.

When do you move the slider to 100% culture? Do you wait until all, or almost all, cathedrals are built?

I've been using your starting save and trying to replicate or improve upon your results. I can tech to Liberalism faster, but I must be doing something wrong after that because my finish dates are later.
Whip as much as possible; if you are building a cathedral, you have 15 turns left, and it costs 5 pop to whip, whip it. Get to 9 cities quickly. Build theatres early... Id like to see if the early settled music artist +the concentration on two cities is best so it will be interesting to see what you come up with!

I switched to US I think in this game but I didnt use much cash rushing. Its only when I had some extra gold from the AIs that I rushed the occasional temple. You need culture ->100% as much as possible or close to it. Switch to 100% culture at liberalism.

Whip as much as possible; if you are building a cathedral, you have 15 turns left, and it costs 5 pop to whip, whip it. Get to 9 cities quickly.

I never thought of whipping so much population. Since your cultural cities are likely cottage cities, doesn't it take some/a lot of time to regrow the population?

Sure usually about the same amount of time to build the cathedral if you utilize the food available. But you get the culture boost earlier; of course this wont work well in the end game when you have many cottages/most cathedrals up. So do it early and often!