The whole Charlemagne question got me thinking, that since people first demanded his inclusion, then were pissed at his Civilisation being HRE, that there are a number of leaders in history that are awesome, but come from shaky polities/civilisations/short lived empires.

I was wondering if any of you could think of leaders you WANT in Civ but the group that they led or the shortness of their empire all but precludes them from leading. I can think of a couple

Theodoric - Goth-Roman Italy
Attila - THe Huns didn't last too long.
Athurou/Proto King Arthur -Romanised Celt Resistors of German incursion
Barbarossa - HRE :)
Vlad Seppish - Romania, right?
Gustavus Adolphus - Sweden, but not Viking compatible


Opposite:
Etruscians - a Civ without a leader ;P
Indus Valley Civ - we know too little about them

Tamerlane (Aggressive/Homicidal)
Mahmud of Ghazni
Alp Arslan
Mithridates of Pontus
Stephan Dushan of Serbia

Yassir Arafat!

Sargon the Great
Ataturk
both Jose de San Martin & Simon Bolivar

Yassir Arafat could an Arabian leader and Ataturk the Ottomans.

Sargon could be a Sumerian leader, while Gustavus Adolphus could be a Scandinavian leader.

But Nelson Mandela, definately.

That was mine and Cyberxkhan's idea. But sadly Fireaxis didn't take it. But i wonder if it is possible to mod it in.

I'll bite- I really like "Skander Beg" (a germanization of the name "Iskander bey", which itself is Turkish for "Alexander the Great", a military title given out, in this case to a guy named George Kastroti, an Albanian prince pressed into ottoman military service at a young age, only to one day rebel, and cause the Ottomans to be unable to push into Western Europe while being preoccupied with his rather serious Albanian rebellion.)

didnt the pope proclame charlamangis *sp* frankish empire the holy roman empire?? then after he died, it split up into whats now more or less modren france, bergendy, and some german kingdom, with later became, agin the holy roman empire?? im a bit confused on the matter.

more or less. Burgundy has a more complex history, but thats it in a nutshell. (it was split up because, IIRC, a Frankish tradition of splitting up a fathers holdings upon his death between his son)

More or less, you have France in the West, Germany in the East, and in the the middle "Lotharingia", comprised of Italy, eastern france/western germany following the Rhine (more or less) heading up to where the neatherlands/dutch/whatever country is up at the Rhines exit point. Lotharingia was also the the one that actually held the Imperial title for the HRE.

Theodoric - Goth-Roman Italy


I'd love to see Theodoric / Tjodrik.

Why would people suggest Ataturk as an Ottoman leader? Wasn't he responsible for creating a modern Turkish state free of Ottoman influence.

Margaret I - like Gustav a Scandinavian leader, who should be included. Unified Scandinavia.

heck with Vikings just add Scandinavia.

didnt the pope proclame charlamangis *sp* frankish empire the holy roman empire?? then after he died, it split up into whats now more or less modren france, bergendy, and some german kingdom, with later became, agin the holy roman empire?? im a bit confused on the matter.Charlemagne has never been Crowned "Holy Roman Emperor". He's been crowned as ruler of the Western Roman Empire (as opposed to the Eastern Roman Empire being the Byzantine Empire). Hence if only his title matters, then he should be considered by Civ4 as a ruler of the Roman civilization next to Caesar and Augustus !

In 843 AD, Charlemagne's Empire has been split between his three grand sons. The Eastern part became later the HRE, the Western part became later the French kingdom, and the middle part has been fastly divided. As such, the Carolingian dynasty is the first one to rule both the French Kingdom (France) and the Holy Roman Empire (Germany).

Charlemagne is not more the founder of the Holy Roman Empire than he is the founder of the French Kingdom as both resulted from his Empire.

But anyway, Charlemagne doesn't come out of nothing, he has ruled a 300 year-old kingdom which is the Frankish kingdom, united by Clovis in 486 AD. I fail to see why he's less Frankish simply because he's been crowned Emperor ! If that's enough for Firaxis, then Napoleon shouldn't be a French leader...