Do either Warlords or BTS offer a big leap in game play or are they mainly bugfixes and more of the same (More Civs, more rules) as basic Civ4?

Warlords offers an addition of Great Generals and vassals, and new civs. This is not an immense improvement.

On the other hand, BtS simply makes Civ4 a different game (I'd say it makes Civ 4.9) - it has new espionnage, new UN (and early UN Apostolic Palace), Corporations, new Space Race - in short it makes Warlords look like a patch. And, except for scenarios, all Warlords content is in BtS.

So the short answer is - if you don't have Warlords, simply get BtS. :)

Some have said that Warlords wasn't much of an expansion pack. Still, most people who bought it stopped playing Vanilla (the original), so there must be something to it. I think it was a good purchase.

From what we know about it, I'd say that there will be fewer complaints about not enough new stuff in BtS. It seems as though it's packed full of changes, some seemingly significant.

So, no, it's not just bugfixes. Patches (free downloads) are issued for that purpose. I think there were two patches for Vanilla and one for Warlords.

Do either Warlords or BTS offer a big leap in game play or are they mainly bugfixes and more of the same (More Civs, more rules) as basic Civ4?

It's basically more of the same stuff, plus some trivial bugfixing. "The Biggest Civpack Expanasion Ever: More Bugfixing than Ever Before" :lol:

It's basically more of the same stuff, plus some trivial bugfixing. "The Biggest Civpack Expanasion Ever: More Bugfixing than Ever Before" :lol:

Funny to say, but I don't see the basis for it. Yes, nerfing siege and allowing people to defy UN resolutions could be seen as bugfixes. But how can one consider adding the Apostolic Palace, Corporations and Colonies as being bugfixes? Sorry, I don't agree.

Funny to say, but I don't see the basis for it. Yes, nerfing siege and allowing people to defy UN resolutions could be seen as bugfixes. But how can one consider adding the Apostolic Palace, Corporations and Colonies as being bugfixes? Sorry, I don't agree.

The Apostolic Palace (aka UN wonder), Corporations (aka religions) and Colonies (aka vassals) are just more of the same stuff.

I've always been a sucker for expansion packs, and i played alot following Warlords (even if it was a bit light in new items, it did improve the game).

As mentioned above, don't bother with Warlords now, as BTS hovvers up any changes made before.

The Apostolic Palace (aka UN wonder), Corporations (aka religions) and Colonies (aka vassals) are just more of the same stuff.

You are so right! Why didn't they add some first-person shooter stuff and also some rally action? And so often, I'd like to drop into a game of chess with Mansa. Not to mention that I'd love to play a game of Hearts or Spades with Monty, Izzy and Shaka! All of this and more (Wii-like interface, perhaps) should have been added!

The Apostolic Palace (aka UN wonder), Corporations (aka religions) and Colonies (aka vassals) are just more of the same stuff.

Would you consider the completely overhauled espionage system which changes spies from being useless to vital, more of the same stuff as well?

Would you consider the completely overhauled espionage system which changes spies from being useless to vital, more of the same stuff as well?

Spies and espionage missions were already in the game. More spies and more espionage missions to micromanage is just more of the same stuff.

I think it was a good purchase.

Agreed. But BTS is gonna blow it outta the water, it would seem. SO PSYCHED!

Did anyone mention AI? The AI upgrade was one of the better parts of Warlords, and BTS will improve on that improvement significantly, from what I understand.

Spies and espionage missions were already in the game. More spies and more espionage missions to micromanage is just more of the same stuff.

Spies and espionage missions were near useless in Civ IV and Warlords. In BtS spies sound to be quite useful as they can do things like steal tech, force a civic change, sow discontent. Doesn't sound like more of the same stuff to me.

Anyways it is obvious that you are just trolling so I won't waste my breath on you anymore.

I think the addition of random events, especially, is a good example how this expansion is not just more of the same, along with new victory condition. what else would they have to do to meet one's criteria for "expansion"? to my mind, they are borderline reinventing this game with random events, so it is almost like a new game.

expansions were never supposed to be anything more than just that - an expansion of more of the same type of content for the core game. they could justifiably just throw in new leaders and units, and call it a day. plenty of other games do that.

no, these guys went out of their way to reach out to the modding community for the scenarios; they came up with an interesting espionage system; and added a new corporations strategy layer (whereas they could have just thrown in a few new religions). then they went a step further and adding little touches like how your spaceship is built and showing it launch from your capital, new interface changes, new AI (not really a little touch for some, but for me I don't care about that since the game is challenging either way).

Do either Warlords or BTS offer a big leap in game play or are they mainly bugfixes and more of the same (More Civs, more rules) as basic Civ4?


Warlords is an awesome expansion, it adds a lot of new civs, and the vassal states. BTS will be even better with new gameplay mechanics like espionage, plus new civs and units so its like warlords but with a lot more added in. Plus if u dont have warlords dont worry about it now, just buy BTS everything from warlords is included in BTS except for the scenarios from warlords

Spies and espionage missions were near useless in Civ IV and Warlords. In BtS spies sound to be quite useful as they can do things like steal tech, force a civic change, sow discontent. Doesn't sound like more of the same stuff to me. Anyways it is obvious that you are just trolling so I won't waste my breath on you anymore.

"Forcing a civic change": this is already in the game. In the diplo screen, you can bribe (or threaten or friendly ask) the AI and make them change civics. That's a feature I hardly ever use. In BtS you'll be able to do the same using spies. Just more of the same stuff.

"Sowing discontent": this is already in the game. Spies can pillage the enemey's luxury resources. Less luxury = more discontent. Nothing new in that department either.

"Stealing teach": this sounds somewhat new (but not entirely, because the game already has ways of obtaining techs from the AI), but it's not enough to make it worth buying the expansion, if you ask me.

I am not trolling, just giving my opinion.

Lads, for a European, what does Nerfed mean?

Lads, for a European, what does Nerfed mean?

Taking something that is overpowered and weakening it for the sake of balance.

More of the same . . .GOOD. I've been playing civilization since Civ I, and that's exactly what I'm paying for. More decent gameplay, more improvements on the same basic concept, more of the things a 386 just couldn't run.

By your definition things I want for civ V are more of the same too, and that's just nifty. Can't wait for more of the same; such as the "civics" system of government extending to allow me to customize my religions as well.

Or maybe some new early game government options. I'd love to have at least two options for each civic class on that first turn. More of the same, but it would make a difference if instead of starting as a tribal chief I started as a god-king, or the head of a nomad confederation.

New things . . . well one day I'd like barbarian mode to become "nomad" mode, with options to settle down later. I've got a few dozen ideas how to do it, but by your definition it's still more of the same. Barbarians are in.

Love more of the same. I've got other games if I don't want to play "civilization", I could play WOW or Sim City, or Oblivion, just to name a few.

I'm buying this one for MORE great Civilization gameplay. If I didn't get that I'd be upset.

Overall I'm amazed by this complaint. It may be trolling, but it's certainly humourous trolling. More of the same stuff we've been playing for over a decade? GREAT. ROFL

More of the same . . .GOOD. I've been playing civilization since Civ I, and that's exactly what I'm paying for. More decent gameplay, more improvements on the same basic concept, more of the things a 386 just couldn't run.

By your definition things I want for civ V are more of the same too, and that's just nifty. Can't wait for more of the same; such as the "civics" system of government extending to allow me to customize my religions as well.

Or maybe some new early game government options. I'd love to have at least two options for each civic class on that first turn. More of the same, but it would make a difference if instead of starting as a tribal chief I started as a god-king, or the head of a nomad confederation.

New things . . . well one day I'd like barbarian mode to become "nomad" mode, with options to settle down later. I've got a few dozen ideas how to do it, but by your definition it's still more of the same. Barbarians are in.

Love more of the same. I've got other games if I don't want to play "civilization", I could play WOW or Sim City, or Oblivion, just to name a few.

I'm buying this one for MORE great Civilization gameplay. If I didn't get that I'd be upset.

Overall I'm amazed by this complaint. It may be trolling, but it's certainly humourous trolling. More of the same stuff we've been playing for over a decade? GREAT. ROFL

Can we get an amen from the choir?! :goodjob:

A lot of people overlook the biggest aspect of Warlords. Warlords introduced the Unique Buildings, which really adds a lot to the game. It further diversifies each Civilization and adds more strategy to the game.

More decent gameplay,

Too early to say. I am very skeptical about Blake's AI (sharing Mutineer's concerns here). Blake's AI seems to be a built-in feature, not an optional mod, and I certainly don't want to waste my money to test its decency.

more improvements on the same basic concept,

Yeah, things are getting "improved" with bug-fixing. But Warlords and BtS bring no new game concept to Vanilla CIV4, or even to CIV3, for that matter.

more of the things a 386 just couldn't run.

You mean more succulent 3D graphic and eye-candy?

By your definition

What definition?


things I want for civ V are more of the same too, and that's just nifty. Can't wait for more of the same; such as the "civics" system of government extending to allow me to customize my religions as well. Or maybe some new early game government options

Complex government civic options and "customizable religion" might have involved new stuff/game concepts, but those things are not in BtS, so your example is irrelevant.


well one day I'd like barbarian mode to become "nomad" mode, with options to settle down later. I've got a few dozen ideas how to do it, but by your definition it's still more of the same. Barbarians are in.


The game should have some way of differentiating between nomadic and settled-down civs. This could be a new game concept (an in my opinion a basic and essential one), but it's not featured in BtS, so your example is again irrelevant. If anything, your example shows that the expansion pack does not deliver genuinely new features such as what you have called the "nomadic mode".

Reading the posts in order it seems, in my oppinion, that you've defined anything we've already seen as a mod or bug fix. Things like the "Nomadic Mode" are huge changes to the core game, which would be more apropriate for civilization 5 and would take years to really get right.

Expansions come out quickly and cost half the price of the game (or less) because they aren't a new game in and of themselves. They merely expand on what is already present, and maybe tweak things a little.

From your post I think you don't want BTS, you want Civilization V. So of course your disapointed with what we've got. There are a lot of things I want for Civ V, but asking for them in BTS would be wrong in my opinion.

Some examples of things for Civ V

Customizable religions

A randomized real world map that moves starting locations and resources

Nomad mode

A choice of starting civics

Time Period specific UU/Building for each leader; and traits set by the civilization. Lincoln with a Yankee, Washington with a Militiaman, etc . . .

More water resources, early ships, great admirals, and the return of the seafaring trait

A much expanded modern tech tree with technologies such as radio and telephone lowering distance costs in the late game, as larger empires become easier to hold together via better communications. Perhaps a telephone/telegraph lines tile improvement.

Customizable religions with new options opening up with different technologies; you'd only be able to change religious "civics" using a great prophet.

The expanded espionage system (which I was surprised to see in BTS) expanded even further.

Borders based on both culture and military presence; forts with borders!

Ability to play with many more opponents in the early game, tons of minor civs that the major civilizations must swallow to expand. Rather than just empty land.

Better AI, and more major civs in each game, say 18-25.

Better performance on larger maps, no need for highly intensive graphics so long as everything looks decent.

Throne room shown as the background for diplomacy screen and actually containing useful information about a civilization.

Much More . . . . But it would all be for Civ V, not an expansion. Something where they work on it for 5 years and get it out to me at a cost of 50+ dollars. I don't expect that much from exansions. They just give more than can be included in a decent patch, and take enough work that I don't think I should get them for free. They aren't a new game.