To make room for all these new buildings and wonders and units, Beyond the Sword includes a handful of new technologies. In some cases, the new techs merely bridge the gap between two existing technologies. In other cases, they branch off into entirely new directions. Aesthetics, for instance, fills in the space between writing and literature and drama. Military Science, on the other hand, leads off from Chemistry and enables a few new promotions.

So Aesthetics now takes Alphabet's former position on the tech tree.

Seems Alphabet is now a dead end tech that only grants you tech trading, converting Hammers to beakers and activates the Espionage Silder.

This changes our teching strategy a bit, no longer can you get both, early tech trading and a shot at the Great Library Wonder anymore, especially on the higher levels. It's either one or the other.

Military Science is the interesting one, it leads off Chemistry. I Wonder if Grenadiers have to pushed back to Military Science?... (just speculation)

If they are it'll lengthen the lifespan of the Musketman, which was the weak point of that unit.

How will it change the teching strategy if my speculation comes true?

Will Players still make a beeline to Chemistry?

Well without Grenadiers, the Tech's only bonuses are you can Build Frigates and you gain an extra Hammer from Workshop improvement,Chemistry also opens Steel.

I can see most Chemistry Beelines will be for Early Cannons by opening up Steel and Siege Units are very important, followed up by Military Science for Grenadiers.

Will Military Academies now require Military Science? Seems logical.

Is Military Tradition still a tech, or has it been replaced by Military Science?

Seems Alphabet is now a dead end tech that only grants you tech trading, converting Hammers to beakers and activates the Espionage Silder.and gives you the spy unit too IIRC.

Is Military Tradition still a tech, or has it been replaced by Military Science?

I Don't think so... if that were true what the point in building Cuirassier?

Rifling just cost as much but down a different Tech route and it opens up Cavalry and Riflemen.


Seems Alphabet is now a dead end tech that only grants you tech trading, converting Hammers to beakers and activates the Espionage Silder.
and gives you the spy unit too IIRC.


That's kind of implied ain't it?

There are some good info about them :mischief: .......just enough to say that Military Science seems really a must for warmongers....there are also some interesting changes related to Aestethics, but i can't post them :scared:

There are some good info about them :mischief: .......just enough to say that Military Science seems really a must for warmongers....there are also some interesting changes related to Aestethics, but i can't post them :scared:

Let me guess their the leaked changes... ****** Why was I one of the guys who missed out on that thread... lol :S

Aesthetics also was required for some wonder like the Statue of Zeus right?

Aesthetics also was required for some wonder like the Statue of Zeus right?

Indeed. :)

If the change makes it harder to get to Grenadiers, it's all good.

I have played several games where I am not particularly in the lead (of the tech race) but where I get this huge advantage of beelining for Chemistry.

Macemen and Knights simply don't stand up to these guys, and they make mincemeat of most city defenders. It becomes incredibly easy to take cities with a 80-90% success rate vs Longbowmen.

Of course you need a handful of Catapults to open up the doors, but who doesn't have a few of those lying around? (Unless of course it's a coastal city: then Chemistry is all you need - upgrading Caravels to Frigates is definitely worth it)

The list of good things about those Bomber Jacks doesn't end there though: even though you get them before Riflemen - they are actually better than those.

Which almost makes you want to give away Rifling for free to your worst opponents! (You wouldn't want them to fill their cities with unbudgeable Grenadiers when they can foolishly build 90% Riflemen).

Yep, I can definitely see all of this go bye bye with the expansion. In fact, I hope so. :)

while Military Science seems like a natural tech for Military Academies, hopefully they don't, that would be too late. I can see it required for the Pentagon.

Maybe the aesthetics tech enables the Palace/Throne Room option :)

If they are it'll lengthen the lifespan of the Musketman, which was the weak point of that unit.
Definitely - especially when you consider that the French, the Ottomans and now the Ethiopians all have Musketman UUs.

I'm looking forward to these changes, and straightening out that section of the tech tree. It always seemed that Cannons came too late and Grenadiers too early (you'd just barely have Musketmen, and then you'd have the counter for what the Musketmen are supposed to upgrade to).

I'm just wondering if they're going to bring in Leonard Nimoy to do the quotes for the couple of new techs...

I'm just wondering if they're going to bring in Leonard Nimoy to do the quotes for the couple of new techs...

They said in the chat that they got Sid to do the new quotes not Nimoy.

I think they did mention somewhere that they were making the age of the musketman last longer, and these suggestions point out one way they could do it. Though I think it might take a little more than these to make it last long enough for all those UU's to be worthwhile. Especially since they are likely to counter each other in many battles.

After all if half of everyone on your map has improved swordsmen/axemen/musketmen it's not so much that they got a boost, but that you got your "normal" unit weakened. lol. At least in practice for that one game.

They said in the chat that they got Sid to do the new quotes not Nimoy.

Eck! Inconsistency... I hope if they have him do the voice of those that he'll do them all and they'll just replace nimoy.

Eck! Inconsistency... I hope if they have him do the voice of those that he'll do them all and they'll just replace nimoy.
Believe it or not, there was a game with *seven* different people reading tech quotes ... and people still liked it. (It was called SMAC, btw.)

Not that I'd object against replacing Nimoy though ... however, Sid's voice isn't much better.

Well, I wouldn't mind have numerous people doing the speaking... but IMO, you either need a variety of people or just one person. Having Sid only do the couple of new techs sounds like "We couldn't get Nimoy... but hey, here's Sid!"

Seems Alphabet is now a dead end tech that only grants you tech trading, converting Hammers to beakers and activates the Espionage Silder.

Why do you think so? Why can't Alphabet be required for Aesthetics?

I certainly hope Alphabet doesn't become a dead-end tech. Otherwise, it becomes even easier to describe nuclear fusion using only pictograms.

I certainly hope Alphabet doesn't become a dead-end tech. Otherwise, it becomes even easier to describe nuclear fusion using only pictograms.

Well, according to the Civilization Revolution trailer, you can describe space travel with cave wall paintings, so I don't see a difference ;)

In all seriousness, why couldn't you? I don't know much about Kanji or similar forms of writing, but I imagine you could express nuclear fusion in it.

In all seriousness, why couldn't you? I don't know much about Kanji or similar forms of writing, but I imagine you could express nuclear fusion in it.

Indeed. Maybe Firaxis should give China, Korean and Japan the advantage of not needing alphabet :rolleyes: .

Indeed. Maybe Firaxis should give China, Korean and Japan the advantage of not needing alphabet :rolleyes: .

Mandarin Chinese, Kanji, and similar languages do have alphabets, albeit really big ones.

Mandarin Chinese, Kanji, and similar languages do have alphabets, albeit really big ones.

I have always interpreted the 'optional' nature of Alphabet to represent those types of languages (in addition to hieroglyphic). The reason you can't tech trade without Alphabet is because of the complication of translation. I did not think this was an unreasonable interpretation.

Mandarin Chinese, Kanji, and similar languages do have alphabets, albeit really big ones.

Err. Those character sets are being used as syllabaries and not alphabets.

Alphabets are sets for the phonemes of a language, and almost all living alphabets are derived from the original Phoenician invention. That's why Writing and Alphabet are different technologies--writing was invented independently many, many times; alphabets were independently invented three times at the most, more likely only once or twice in human history.

By the way, independent invention means that they created the invention without knowing that it had been invented elsewhere.

koreans use alphabet-ish writing system in that their writing can be broken down into consonents/vowels (14 consonents & 10 vowels from what I can count off my head) which only refer to spoken 'sound' & only constitute 'meaning' when they are put together in specific sturcture/format.

Korean writing system is hugely different from Chinese although there are many common/borrowed words.

Err. Those character sets are being used as syllabaries and not alphabets.

Alphabets are sets for the phonemes of a language, and almost all living alphabets are derived from the original Phoenician invention. That's why Writing and Alphabet are different technologies--writing was invented independently many, many times; alphabets were independently invented three times at the most, more likely only once or twice in human history.

By the way, independent invention means that they created the invention without knowing that it had been invented elsewhere.

yeah I'm not expert in linguistics but in that case Korean writing system would exactly fall into the category you describe in that historically, Koreans used to use Chinese characters for writing but at some point in history the king comissioned scholars to come up with a writing system based on consonents/vowel phonetics. I do not know if it had anything to do with European/any other alphabetical systems in terms of when it was being 'invented', but it certainly seems to be an alphabetical system by your definition.

back to the topic (although I love discussions about language)

The choice between GL and Alphabet is easy, skip the GL. On Monarch or higher tech trading is very important, and we don't know yet how important espionage will be.
The AI so far doesn't prioritize Alphabet making it good trade bait. This may change with the new AI favoring espionage ( which I bet it does).

About Muskets, the official word was that their life span was being extended by pushing back Cavalry. I hope there is a push back of Grens too as this was the real thing that ended their life span.

I have always interpreted the 'optional' nature of Alphabet to represent those types of languages (in addition to hieroglyphic). The reason you can't tech trade without Alphabet is because of the complication of translation. I did not think this was an unreasonable interpretation.

Translation isn't too hard. You can use logographic characters to represent sounds. It's what China does today (for Poland, they use words that would mean "wave orchid.") But it doesn't really mean anything ,it's the sounds ("boh and "lan" that are used).

Koreans used to use Chinese characters for writing but at some point in history the king comissioned scholars to come up with a writing system based on consonents/vowel phonetics. I do not know if it had anything to do with European/any other alphabetical systems in terms of when it was being 'invented', but it certainly seems to be an alphabetical system by your definition.

Well the Korean king's rationale was (reasonably) that Chinese characters don't approximate the Korean language that well, therefore a writing system better suited for the Korean language would increase literacy. Of course the government bureacrats didn't want any threats to power so the scheme was shelved for a few hundred years. Indeed, even the King wrote his manifesto in classical Chinese :lol:

The choice between GL and Alphabet is easy, skip the GL. On Monarch or higher tech trading is very important, and we don't know yet how important espionage will be. The AI so far doesn't prioritize Alphabet making it good trade bait. This may change with the new AI favoring espionage ( which I bet it does).

Oo I dont' know about that. Great Library synergizes with National Epic, which leads to fast philosophy and all the fun consequences that result. At higher levels tech trading is nice, HOWEVER you don't want to trade that early because of WFYABTA. I find it better to research all low level techs first, with a typical trade being alphabet-->Iron Working/Mathematics.

Back to the Musketman... I am concerned that simply pushing back the Grenadiers will not do enough to improve the Musketman. Musketmen do not have a major advantage over macemen, they have a disadvantage against knights (especially since knights are immune to first strikes), and they will have an even more disadvantage against the new post-knights/pre-cavalry units. I still don't see much use for the musketman; perhaps they should change their strength to 10.

Why do you think so? Why can't Alphabet be required for Aesthetics?

I never said it wouldn't require Alphabet but with the current data I have, I just assume that the route between writing to Aesthetics or Alphabet are seperate.

Although I Have no idea what the word Aesthetics mean *checks dictionary*...
But I Can see Literature requiring Alphabet, so I guess the GL Could probably be delayed in construction I guess.

Back to the Musketman... I am concerned that simply pushing back the Grenadiers will not do enough to improve the Musketman. Musketmen do not have a major advantage over macemen, they have a disadvantage against knights (especially since knights are immune to first strikes), and they will have an even more disadvantage against the new post-knights/pre-cavalry units. I still don't see much use for the musketman; perhaps they should change their strength to 10.

I was thinking giving the Musketman an advantage over Mounted units, like how Rifles have have that kind of advantage, maybe +50% vs Mounted so they can both counter Knights and Cuirassier

Well, according to the Civilization Revolution trailer, you can describe space travel with cave wall paintings, so I don't see a difference ;)

In all seriousness, why couldn't you? I don't know much about Kanji or similar forms of writing, but I imagine you could express nuclear fusion in it.

???????????????????????????????????????????? ?????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ??????????proliferation??????????????????????????? ??????????

??????????????????????????

I was thinking giving the Musketman an advantage over Mounted units, like how Rifles have have that kind of advantage, maybe +50% vs Mounted so they can both counter Knights and Cuirassier

That's a good idea. With three Musket UUs maybe they think it has enough going for it already. Really it would be great to bring the musket into the game.

Let me guess their the leaked changes... ****** Why was I one of the guys who missed out on that thread... lol :SHeh, you and me both :(

back to the topic (although I love discussions about language)

The choice between GL and Alphabet is easy, skip the GL. On Monarch or higher tech trading is very important, and we don't know yet how important espionage will be.


I usually turn OFF tech trading because it makes the game too easy. I actually went back down to noble after I started doing this. It doesn't take much skill to rip off the current AI.

At least one player in our household (we have 4 players living here) CAN'T play without tech trading on, and he has a fit if we want to turn it off in multi-player. His strategy is THAT dependant on it.

Hopefully the new AI trades more effectively.

For example knowing that if I'm trading them "Theocracy" or "Code Of Laws" then at least one player has already discovered the religion and they should pay less for it. Also they should know that a religious civic is useless to them if they don't have a religion. The same thing goes for "liberalism" it's a lot more valuable to RESEARCH, then it is in trading. So the "Beaker Cost" isn't what they should be looking at for that tech.

As it is now using Tech Trading feels a lot like cheating, and if it's turned off Alphabet doesn't do anything for you at all. I'm glad Aphabet gives espionage now. I might actually stop skipping the technology.

Hangul is definately an alphabet, not a syllabary, but I've always heard it has 10 vowels 12 consonants, not 14. (whenever I say this to a Korean person they are surprised that I know, then they have to count the number of letters on their fingers.)

The first writing systems were logographic, like Chinese. Hieroglyphs, Cuneiform, ect, eventually also gained alphabet and syllabary like forms, but wee used in their old ways as well. Greek witting systems were syllabaries, not alphabets, as was the system made for the Cherokee language by Sequoya. The first Alphabets were Semitic, but even they had non-alphabetic aspects (originally a numeral system made of lines and dots, no vowels, words were often written in languages other than those they were supposed to be pronounced in ) I believe I heard that the Mongols actually devised an alphabet in their own, and that, based on this concept, the Koreans made a better one.
The English writing system is not entirely alphabetic, since it is often more convenient to use logograms, such as +,-,#,@,<,*, ,,',", :, ;, 9, &c.