View Full Version : Welcome to Road to War!


Dale
Jul 03, 2007, 11:59 PM
Welcome all to The Road to War!

RtW is a mod in Civilization IV: Beyond the Sword. This forum can be used for discussions about the mod, as well as future features and scenarios.

I hope you enjoy the mod. :)

RtW Website: http://rtw.apolyton.net Updated 19 July 2007

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As posted in the General Forums in response to some posts by players:

Please note the following:

1. Remember, RtW was NOT a community mod. RtW is an official mod with Firaxis - Take 2's names on it. As designer, I was only one link in the chain. To that end, I had to work together with a number of other entities to ensure the mod was acceptable to the whole world.

2. As RtW stood at one point during development, there was 200 megs of leader graphics, 200 megs of unit models, and 200 megs of videos. That's 600 megs just for artwork. I HAD to cut it down. Hence, the videos were dropped and unit models were combined to cut the number of different models used.

3. Gameplay versus History. Always an interesting debate. Purists want history, and the average Joe wants gameplay. I wanted to target as many people as possible, and allow for a fun game in the WW2 environment. I believe I have achieved that. Consequently some elements of history were changed to fit the fun gameplay goal. If you want pure history, go play Hearts of Iron or Making History: The Calm & the Storm. If you want a fun game that simulates WW2, then play RtW.

I will comment no further on any of these issues. Please keep an eye on the RtW Forum: http://forums.civfanatics.com/forumdisplay.php?f=265 and the RtW Website: http://rtw.apolyton.net. I am currently working on an add-on which will enhance the historical side of the mod.

Thanks
Dale

Dale
Jul 05, 2007, 04:01 AM
Features:

This mod was created by Dale, GarretSidzaka and Hexagonian, and will consist of three scenarios and three modes (on release). Two of the scenarios will be held in Europe with the remaining one will be in the Pacific. The three modes are Historic Events, Random Historic Events and Open Play. All three modes will be available for all three scenarios. Some of the new features are:

* Enhanced Bombing: There are three different bombing missions. You can now designate whether you are bombing defenses, factories, or civil buildings. This can really hurt production.
* Large maps with accurate city placements and historical unit numbers.
* Religions have been replaced with ideologies.
* The mapsize will be larger than your standard continents map, but due to improvements in the BtS engine the game runs faster.
* Dale has modified the AI over and above that of Blake's AI.


Historical Game

* Available all scenarios
* Cannot declare war, nor can you make peace.
* These type of events are scheduled and will happen on the historical date.

Random Historical Events

* Available all scenarios
* Cannot declare war, nor can you make peace.
* These type of events are scheduled like Historical Events mode, but the events occur close to the historical date.

Open Style

* Available all scenarios
* It's open season in regards to diplomacy, civics and all other choices
* Best mode for "What-If"


Later Un-Official Release
Dale has stated he will be releasing more parts of his mod after the official release of BTS. The official site of RtW will be Apolyton http://rtw.apolyton.net. This "un-official release" will contain:

* A global map
* All nations playable
* New graphics for the UU's
* You can switch with an ally civ
* 200 megs worth of videos made by Poly's hexagonia.
* Many more new features

Playable Civs

* Europe
o East Balkans
o Finland
o France
o Germany
o Italy
o Norway
o Poland
o United Kingdom
o United States
o USSR
o West Balkans
* Pacific
o Australia
o China
o Dutch East Indies
o Japan
o Philippines
o Siam
o United Kingdom
o USA
o Xinxiang


Non-playable Civs

* Europe
o Baltic States
o Iberia
o Low Country
o Sweden
o Turkey
* Pacific
o France
o Mongolia
o USSR

Dale
Jul 05, 2007, 04:01 AM
Reserved for screenshots.......

GarretSidzaka
Jul 09, 2007, 04:50 AM
Reserved ;)

Gaius Octavius
Jul 09, 2007, 06:33 PM
Wow, congratulations on getting your own forum. Looking forward to RtW! :D

vidimce
Jul 18, 2007, 08:55 AM
Dale, will there be different types of tanks for the countries ? Example, Germany, Panzer 2, Panzer 4, Panzer 5 Panther, Panzer 6 Tiger etc.

Dale
Jul 18, 2007, 10:52 AM
Yes ( 10 )

wotan321
Jul 18, 2007, 10:57 AM
Yes ( 10 )

So do you mean 10 per civ, or 10 UUs in the scenario or what? I really think some screen-shots of the tech tree would certainly clear this up...<g>

Dale
Jul 18, 2007, 11:27 AM
Actually, it's "I have to make 10 characters for this to post" :P

The 8 majors have unique INF, TAN, FIG & BOM, 3 of each for 12 UU's each civ.

GarretSidzaka
Jul 18, 2007, 03:39 PM
and each country is slightly different stats for the UU's

vidimce
Jul 19, 2007, 12:57 AM
Well I got the game, and all the tanks, fighters, bombers look the same ... I hope you're gonna make some patches with different graphics for each unit.

The Mod is awesome except for the graphics.

Dale
Jul 19, 2007, 01:23 AM
Yeah, one of the late-dev-cycle requirements of Firaxis was to drastically cut the number of graphics loaded.

Add-on pack 1 will fix that. :)

Dale
Jul 19, 2007, 07:12 AM
First posts updated now that BtS is released. :)

wotan321
Jul 19, 2007, 07:18 AM
When can we expect to see the Add-on Pack 1?

Dale
Jul 19, 2007, 07:36 AM
It'll be a few weeks. I want some time between release and AP1 to make sure all the bugs are stamped out. :)

GarretSidzaka
Jul 19, 2007, 02:40 PM
yeah, there is alot of work to do. you will be able to play vanilla first, then compare it to the version with full graphics ;)

Shqype
Jul 19, 2007, 02:47 PM
This looks cool, I wonder how the East Balkans will play. :)

Dale
Jul 19, 2007, 02:55 PM
East Balkans can be tough. If West Balkans aren't eliminated fast you'll end up being ground between them and the Russians.

GarretSidzaka
Jul 19, 2007, 03:31 PM
you know, there is alot of interesting terrain in the balkans on this map. the cities are not cruched together like crazy (unlike alot of maps) and there is massive terrain to transverse and ambush enemies. Don't worry dale has upped the movement on alot of the units.

Red Door
Jul 19, 2007, 06:10 PM
I'll be waiting for my copy of BtS and this scenario. Thanks for making this and getting the sub-forum guys.

Civinator
Jul 22, 2007, 01:40 PM
I have some questions about your scenario:

Are there seasons in the scenario (p.e. winters, where the German tanks have less movement points)?

Is there a divisional or regimental OOB in the 1939 scenario?

How many units are on the map of the 1939 scenario?

Can you say something to turn- and loading times of the scenario?

Dale
Jul 22, 2007, 02:38 PM
I have some questions about your scenario:

Are there seasons in the scenario (p.e. winters, where the German tanks have less movement points)?

Yes. Bitter Winter is a major problem for units operating in eastern Europe. Movement is halved, heal rates are slower, defenders get a small bonus and air missions have a chance of failure.

Is there a divisional or regimental OOB in the 1939 scenario?

No.

How many units are on the map of the 1939 scenario?

I haven't counted them, but it's based on historical data for all nations.

Can you say something to turn- and loading times of the scenario?

BtS comes with LOADS of optimisation and speed-ups. I experience <30 second turn times even late in the game (mostly around 10 seconds). There is a bit of a slow down in Sept-Oct 39 as hundreds of units are maneuvered, but that's to be expected.

Civinator
Jul 22, 2007, 02:43 PM
Bitter winter and the fast turn times are great. :)

Dale
Jul 22, 2007, 06:38 PM
Yeah bitter winter is an awesome idea! It works so well I'll be expanding it in the add-on pack. :)

Also, just so you're aware, there is a winter promotion that helps to alleviate the effects of bitter winter. The Russians and Finnish automatically get this on new units. Makes the Winter War interesting. ;)

Dale
Jul 23, 2007, 09:38 PM
Add a "disclaimer" to the first post, as I posted it in the General BtS Forum.

GarretSidzaka
Jul 23, 2007, 11:41 PM
Add a "disclaimer" to the first post, as I posted it in the General BtS Forum.

good move :)

Civinator
Jul 25, 2007, 11:03 AM
Are there screenshots yet about the maps in the Europe and in the Pacific scenario ?

P.e. questions about desert warfare, would be easier if we would know that North Africa is included in the Europe scenario, if there is a Malta in the game and so on. Where are the northern and the southern borders for the Europe-scenario map? Where are the eastern and western borders of that map?

If such a screenshot still exists, please give me a link. At present I have only seen a screene about the upcoming worldmap that is not "in the box " of BTS.

Dale
Jul 25, 2007, 02:27 PM
Europe map in BtS covers from eastern US to Astrakhan (shore of the Caspian) and from just off the top of the Scandinavian coast down below Cairo.

Civinator
Jul 25, 2007, 03:44 PM
Thanks for the answer.

As North Africa is included, can you tell us something about how you set up the desert warfare? Are the Africa Korps and the 8th Army included and how do they work?

Are there special rules for the desert warfare?

Is Malta in and if yes, is there a special function for the influence of that island to the war in North Africa?

Dale
Jul 26, 2007, 02:39 PM
There's nothing special setup specifically for desert warfare. There's no specific AK or 8th either.

I've avoided "special rules" and "unit presents" in the mod to ensure that the AI does/goes where it wants to.

Italy makes a pretty strong presence in Africa, and in testing I have seem Germany ship units down there (though rarely). Germany tended to only get involved in it was overwhelming Europe.

Yes, Malta is it. Decent fortress too.

farolito
Aug 03, 2007, 04:35 AM
A Civ-Fanatic since "Civ I" I really have to thank Dale for his work ... i'm hooked on the Europe 1936 -Scenario since I got the BtS-DVD on Monday ! RtW brings really great gaming experience, looking forward to new Scenarios in RtW ( especially a world-scenario !!!)

wotan321
Aug 13, 2007, 06:45 AM
Dale,

Tell us why Corporations are not included in this Mod?

I am not complaining, I am just curious. I have only played the "Open Euorpe 1936" scenario, so my first reaction was disappointment, but I can see how they would be out of place in the more scripted scenarios.

Dale
Aug 13, 2007, 07:30 AM
Ummmm...... due to the development cycle of BtS. I can't say anymore. :)

Besides, you wouldn't be able to spread them anyways, so no real point to them yeah? :)

wotan321
Aug 13, 2007, 08:42 AM
Besides, you wouldn't be able to spread them anyways, so no real point to them yeah?

I wouldn't? I think in the "open" scenarios where there isn't always war, they could come in handy. I'd like to see 3 instead of all of them, since industrial might was such an important part of the era. But I wonder if they would be unbalancing.

GarretSidzaka
Aug 13, 2007, 01:07 PM
didnt road to war start production even before they implemented corporations at firaxis?

Dale
Aug 13, 2007, 03:16 PM
Yeah, that's why the "dev cycle" comment and why it can't be commented on. :)

GarretSidzaka
Aug 13, 2007, 06:15 PM
:lol: LOL

Zeviz
Aug 21, 2007, 01:28 PM
Dale, thanks for making this mod. It's one of my favorite BtS mods. (The other one is Rhye's.)

JEELEN
Aug 10, 2008, 06:41 AM
DLed RtW-UE 1.1: works like a charm! :D (Noticed 1 typo trying Stalin in 1936 Global: Irkustsk = Irkutsk.)

Thank you Dale Kent, David Sobotka and Tony Kiehl for making a great mod. :goodjob:

Laurier
Aug 11, 2008, 01:02 AM
since we're pointing out typos, same scenario I noticed Ottawa is spelt Ottowa(sic) in the game.

USA Today (http://www.usatoday.com/sports/hockey/nhl/senators/notes.htm) will get confused at times too, but I assure you it's Ottawa (http://www.ottawa.ca/).

Mr_M0ntana
Dec 06, 2008, 07:50 AM
I recently played the 1936 Europe scenario as Germany on accurate historical events on Noble difficulty. By December 1939 I had created Vichy France - but was dissapointed when they had absolutely no army, I'm not sure but weren't they allowed 100,000 men on mainland France, and another 50,000 in North Africa. But that wasn't much of a problem as I supplied them with tanks, infantry, artillery, lots of improved anti air guns (as that was the only unit they were making at the time!) and a small airforce of focke 190s and the German improved bombers. Before Germany declared war on Russia (June 1941) I had conquered France, half of Poland (USSR the other half), Norway, Canada, British Isles and its colonies abroad (Egypt, Iraq and Iran) [[Iran wasn't controlled by Britain at the start of the war - it was independant, in 1942 Britain and the USSR made a coalition against it because it was pro Germany]] and my allies conquered mainland Greece and Yugoslavia. When I reached August 1941 I had also captured USSR cities Stavropol, Murmansk, Riga and its Polish cities. But then it said we had won a conquest victory even though we still had most of Russia to take over and invade mainland America in December 1941, and Turkey in 1945 (as they declare war on Germany). I don't know how to mod things or what you can mod but if you can give Vichy France a small army and navy, change the terms for the conquest victory and somehow make the AI continually focus on their army (as after a while they just focus totally on research, which made it so easy for me.)
Thanks for making such an awesome mod

kiwitt
Jan 18, 2009, 12:08 AM
Mr Montana: Take a look at my changes.

Mr_M0ntana
Jan 18, 2009, 03:30 AM
Mr Montana: Take a look at my changes.

Where are your changes?

kiwitt
Jan 18, 2009, 05:33 AM
Where are your changes?


http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=306489

Mr_M0ntana
Jan 19, 2009, 07:23 AM
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=306489

I've downloaded your changes but don't know where to put them, I've replaced the ones that have the same name as the ones the XML categories, but some of your changes I can't find on the scenario itself.

kiwitt
Jan 19, 2009, 11:59 AM
Can you be more specific ? What changes can you not see ?

You should select my WBS and you will need to place this file in the same place as Dale's to see it.

Mr_M0ntana
Jan 19, 2009, 12:39 PM
Can you be more specific ? What changes can you not see ?

You should select my WBS and you will need to place this file in the same place as Dale's to see it.

I loaded the WBS as the British Empire and it just said You have been defeated!!

kiwitt
Jan 19, 2009, 01:00 PM
Thanks for that. I'll test it out.

I have only tested it with the German's so far. Need to playtest all nations :(

Mr_M0ntana
Jan 19, 2009, 01:24 PM
Thats another thing, Germany wasn't on the list of playable Civs.

kiwitt
Jan 19, 2009, 11:31 PM
Not sure what happened to you but I just loaded "The British Empire" and it was fine.

Mr_M0ntana
Jan 20, 2009, 01:54 AM
It's probably because I need to add some of the files you added, the ones I didn't know where they went were - Civ4GameText_WW2_Objects and CIV4ImprovementInfos.

Vertico
May 14, 2009, 11:22 AM
Hi I played BTS version of this mod.
Very interesting but few things were quite anoying.
For instance why German infantry is 4 times stronger than any other Infantry? Men fought with children? The same with tanks and other stuff...

The other thing I noticed is USSR when inviding Poland in '39 doesn't invade Baltics, which is incorrect.

I will try now ultimate mod - I hope it got improved as it is not Firaxis version anymore.

kiwitt
May 14, 2009, 07:05 PM
Strength is based on more than just numbers of troops. It incorporates other things like "morale, leadership, equipment used, inherent artillery and vehicles, etc."

As to tanks, German tanks were significant more superior in firepower, armour, leadership and tactics ... i.e. BlitzKrieg

Russia invaded the Baltics in June 1940 militarily.

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/When_did_soviet_union_invade_the_baltics_lithunani a_latvia_estonia

Maaximillus
Jun 10, 2009, 01:26 PM
The term "Russia invaded the Baltics in June 1940 militarily." is kinda harsh to use since it was bloodless annexation. (Even if it really was invasion the term makes it look like war)

True about strenght of units, but the "superiority" of german tanks can be widely argued. While we all know they were used better than any other nation used tanks, In 1939-1940 German tanks were inferior to newwest French models in both armor and firepower. It was the French battle doctrine that made French tanks perform bad. The legendary T-34 tank also dominated all other German tanks until Panzer IV Ausf. D. Also by late 1944 Soviet Union had better tanks that Germany (Joseph Stalin tank for example). While looking at numbers and stats (and training) Joseph Stalin was "weaker" than The modern german courterparts (Panther Ausd. G. and Königstiger) but by mid 1944 germanys lack of resources was so heavy that they had to mix alternative ingredients that caused armor to be so unstable that during bumby ride it could crack due to the weight of armouring theese heavy tanks had. And by 1944 all german doctrines were obsolete (like blitzkrieg).

All in All the success in West (battle of France) was not because German tanks would be superior, but because German tactics and doctrine was superior and in East the "superiority" of German tanks was often challenged. Especially when we consider that superior tank loses its value when you can't produce them enough or have no oil to use them. :lol:

kiwitt
Jun 10, 2009, 06:59 PM
Some of my units have the "leadership" promotion (amongst others) even when they do not have a "General" assigned this allows them to simulate better "leadership" or other traits. i.e. the British Fighter Sqns and the German Panzer Divs. Note: most higher level units (corps and armies) have the leadership promotion and ins some case a "General" assigned.

fireclaw722
Jul 14, 2009, 10:27 PM
Whats up with the Great People's names, i.e: Never say you reached the final road

kiwitt
Jul 14, 2009, 11:58 PM
Yeah Noticed that.

One Idea I have is to give each Nation unique Great People. e.g. German Artists, German Scientists, German Generals, German Merchants.

It is not too hard to do technically, but would take quite a while to research all the names and as this is a "Military Mod", not sure where the benefit would be. Most AI countries would simply add them to a city or launch a golden age, so their life is short (i.e. 1 or 2 turns).

However, I am consdering adding custom Generals (using the unit graphics some people have created already), Which would give each country a unique "Generals" list.

fireclaw722
Jul 15, 2009, 05:55 PM
That would make it more realistic than the odd Great People names

fireclaw722
Jul 24, 2009, 03:33 PM
Quick Question:
How do I use the "civ customizer" part of the mod?

zoller32
Nov 02, 2009, 04:47 PM
Hi
have played this mod for the first time. (1936 as germany)
One question.
As germany, do I get Austria and Tjekkoslovakia in some kind of event ?
historically they where both a part af germany when the war starts in sept 1939.

kiwitt
Nov 02, 2009, 05:27 PM
Yes. You must play Historical. If you play random Historical it may not happen. And open-play not at all.

zoller32
Dec 06, 2009, 06:16 AM
omg, why are artillery so strong.
it's impossible to just roll over them with a tank.
They should not have the 50% against tanks. stupid.
I stopped playing after this

kiwitt
Dec 07, 2009, 02:30 PM
One of the reason's why I made my own version.

fireclaw722
Dec 09, 2009, 04:00 PM
I'm going to start to use some of the Aircraft graphics for my RoM modmod.

Darth Fred
Apr 28, 2010, 01:51 PM
A question that may well have been answered already. I'm currently playing Germany (The 1936 version) and was wondering if I have to take out all the Soviets to for a domination win, or all other players?

Thanks ahead of time.
F

kiwitt
Apr 28, 2010, 03:04 PM
Beating the Soviets is only half the game, you need to take out Allies as well.

Darth Fred
Apr 28, 2010, 08:17 PM
Beating the Soviets is only half the game, you need to take out Allies as well.

Ok, but are we talking Capitols or entire countries (England/France/US/Russia)?
F

kiwitt
Apr 28, 2010, 10:27 PM
Take them out completely, I believe.

Interestingly I have never played out a game to the end. Once I have conquered, Poland, Norway, France, England, Yugoslavia/Greece/Albania, Russia, I usually stop as I have so much power and simply spend the rest of the game fending off USA and the occasional Canada Attack.

So I have now resorted to trying to make the game "harder" for the Germans (as this is who the majority of players choose), and make it more of a challenge.

Darth Fred
Apr 28, 2010, 10:46 PM
Take them out completely, I believe.

Interestingly I have never played out a game to the end. Once I have conquered, Poland, Norway, France, England, Yugoslavia/Greece/Albania, Russia, I usually stop as I have so much power and simply spend the rest of the game fending off USA and the occasional Canada Attack.

So I have now resorted to trying to make the game "harder" for the Germans (as this is who the majority of players choose), and make it more of a challenge.


Awesome. Thank you. So far I've taken out Czechoslovakia, The Low Countries, Yugoslavia (All three actually declared war on me) and been to war with Norway. I'm in the middle of Poland and eyeballing France.

This is sounds like good news. I didn't want to have to take every city on the map.
:king:
F

ma2481
Jul 29, 2010, 02:41 PM
I am running BTS 3.17 i download the mod like 3 times unzipped it and placed them in the mod folder. Once i went to choose the scenario i click the ok to restart the game but nothing happens after that. Any suggestions?

kiwitt
Jul 29, 2010, 03:08 PM
If you have BTS 3.17 and you have patched it to 3.19, there is nothing to download. You can play RtW straight out of the box.

However, if you want my Historical Version 1.04, which can be installed in parallel (as opposed to 1.0 in BTS) or Ultimate Edition 1.1, which will replace your existing RtW, you need to download them.

anamarvelo
May 15, 2011, 05:12 PM
is there a way for me to play the global assault map?

kiwitt
May 15, 2011, 05:16 PM
You need ultimate edition for that.

poorciver
Oct 25, 2011, 08:12 PM
hello civ fanatics. (sorry if i'm doing this wrong), but this is my first post-ever--anywhere....i've been seaching for answers to this problem...but no luck. any help would be greatly appreciated. my problem is this....i installed civ4/warlords/and bts on a new pc. then i decided that i'd update/patch the game and it is now up to 3.19. so now i've got whatever version of Dale's rtw that came w/ the 3.19 patch. i got well into a open-play, pacific game(1936) and the game ctd at the end of a certain turn. i can save and load just fine(it appears)...but when i hit "end turn"....boom ctd!
i have not downloaded or installed any other mods...and i'm not trying to load an older save game from a diff. version...the only thing that has changed is now i have 3.19.... is this one of those conflicts that can be resolved by putting the game in it's own folder? ie..c:\games\civ4
i have windows7 if that matters
well thanks for any help...and a big thanks to all the modders for their work

kiwitt
Oct 25, 2011, 11:20 PM
It would help if Civ4 is installed in its own folder.

poorciver
Oct 29, 2011, 02:32 PM
thanks for responding kiwitt. i followed your instructions for installing and patching on the tech support thread. then i copied my 'rtw savegame' back into the save folder...just hoping that now it might work. but no luck with that. do you think there is any hope of saving it--or is it a lost cause.
i just have to add...i find it strange that i've never had an issue w/ civ4 or rtw...until i patched it....isn't it supposed to work the other way around?

kiwitt
Oct 30, 2011, 04:12 AM
A savegame from 3.17 and 3.19 is different file formats.

poorciver
Oct 31, 2011, 01:36 PM
thanks again kiwitt for responding....but what i don't understand is that this is not a 3.17v save-game...it is a game i started after patching to 3.19...so it is whatever version on rtw that came w/ 3.19 patch.....patching to 3.19 is the only thing i have ever changed or updated w/ my civ4--and i started this particular game after that one update. no one else has had this problem?

kiwitt
Oct 31, 2011, 01:58 PM
I think a re-start might be better - the save game may be broken

poorciver
Nov 01, 2011, 08:29 PM
yeah-i guess all i can do is start another game and see if it gets lost as well. there'd be no reason to play rtw if all my save games get destroyed. well thanks for the help kiwitt

kiwitt
Nov 01, 2011, 10:21 PM
I do regular saves like after every major battle or every 2-3 turns. This way I go back to another one, if a battle plan does not work out or if a save file is in error.

Atreju
Aug 25, 2012, 05:54 AM
How exactly do I get a world map 1936 and can play with the normal rtw, not the edition, where factories don't increase the production or where you can't update units?

kiwitt
Aug 25, 2012, 01:49 PM
World map is only available in the Ultimate Edition.

Atreju
Aug 25, 2012, 09:11 PM
I just put Global assault in the Public Maps folder of the non-ultimate edition The Road to war Mod and then I could start playing, but there comes no winter, no Franco was coming and some other features were missing.But I wanted to have +25%(+25% with energy)production from every factory and be able to upgrade units, what you can't do in ultimate edition.The culture buildings also make no culture, where I also don't know why this is removed.Can you anyhow add it to the edition?

kiwitt
Aug 25, 2012, 10:55 PM
It is very complex to do. Culture was removed so that borders remained static.

Atreju
Aug 30, 2012, 10:01 AM
But the borders dont remain static anyways, when I played Germany France got at the very beginning the 3 western tiles, my stones, my iron..just by getting a great artist and making a boom and I couldn't do anything.I just lost 1936 German land east of rhein to france...

kiwitt
Aug 30, 2012, 02:18 PM
Which is why I created my own version