Let's make the point of the situation:

1. Real life issues are pushing me away from modding: I've got an exam the 16th, and other things to do later on. This means I can't handle any BIG project.

2. Before the release of the first patch of BTS it's quite useless to work on anything, as I have to keep all 3 versions updated now.

3. With the release of BTS, I am forced to stop the development of main RFC. You know, text will be completely localised in the BTS release, and I don't want to add anything in the later patches that can't be translated. Otherwise, making additions for Warlords/vanilla only, or releasing unofficial patches which may conflict with the official ones don't sound good.

Then, my solution to these 3 problems is that I will work, when I have time, on a stand-alone mod, still related to RFC, so that I haven't got constraints of any kind.

I should have posted a poll, but I've already decided actually.
It will be RFC Random.
It contains many problems: the main are spawn system and UHVs. Some features will be dropped.
But I, maybe for selfish reasons, want to make it. Selfish reasons are that it's a way to go back to my original goal: play a game myself.
I can't play RFC without being tempted to reveal the map, fix a bug, add/remove plague, make civs collapse as I snap my fingers, etc. And I tell I would do that. I love cheating.
I need a map that I don't know already tile-by-tile to awake interest in me...

Then, the bad news
- it will be for BTS only (unless Vishiang makes a conversion later). I just couldn't keep track of - wait - 6 versions! 3 normal, 3 random.
- I won't start working on it until BTS is out and possibily its first patch too, if it comes out early. And I won't be quick, it'll take some time and I haven't got much.

That's it.
Your ideas on how to deal with the problems I mentioned are welcome. I may not follow them, but they always stimulate my own ideas (just like it recently happened with Elhoim's idea, and the conquerors event).

I can't play RFC without being tempted to reveal the map, fix a bug, add/remove plague, make civs collapse as I snap my fingers, etc. And I tell I would do that. I love cheating.

Um, I heard that there is a special option in the "Custom Game" that disallows using of the WorldBuilder in-game.

To me this is bad news. I like this mod because it RFC and historical; historical locations, cities, civs. That separated it from regular civ game, which I got bored fast after finding this.

You know, text will be completely localised in the BTS release, and I don't want to add anything in the later patches that can't be translated.

You mean coding text(Python, XML) or regular text? Because there are many keen people who can translate regular text from language to another. Someone even made a Russian translation(hats off to him, that must have been a tough job).

Let's now hope that Vishaing or some modding expert like him comes and saves us from no-updates-to-RFC misery. :(

But there is a good thing in this too; we may get finally a bug-free RFC, as Rhye doesn't have to include any new features causing bugs. Though I don't know how many hidden bugs there are, but I hope that Rhye has time to fix those small bugs that are found.

You mean coding text(Python, XML) or regular text?

Coded text has no stuff that might need to be translated, except for the CityNameManager.py.

Now, I fear that the fellows from 1C company, who makes Russian versions, will seriously screw CityNameManager up... They might change all the names to Russian (so I'll have to change them back tediously, I dislike Russian translations) or, worse, realize that there is no easy switch like "language=1" to make RFC both in Russian and English, and decide not to include RFC at all. :(

A pity that original versions of games are so hard to find in Russia.

To me this is bad news. I like this mod because it RFC and historical; historical locations, cities, civs.

I think it is great news. RFC tries to be realistic, but it is very unrealistic that one civ (the human player's) starts out knowing the exact geography of the world, and even where future resources/civs will pop up.

The best thing I think would be a random map that was very earthlike. I.e. there would be a 'Eurasia-Africa' super-continent and an 'Americas' with semi-random form, with the civs in roughly the same geographical and chronological relationships. For example, Rome would start on a sea that partly divides the super-continent, and it would start 500~1500 years after Greece, etc. If the random landmass didn't have room for a Rome there, however, it might start somewhere a bit different or not even spawn at all. This way nothing could be predicted accurately, but it would still have the same feeling as earth history.

I don't know if this is possible. Certainly UHVs would have to be made much more general, or dropped. Just ideas.

I like the idea of a random map. While i am looking forward to BtS, it will be hard to play a NON-RFC game at teh start (to try the new civs and features).

I used to enjoy random maps in Rhye's for Civ III

Now if we could just play a OCC!

I think it is great news. RFC tries to be realistic, but it is very unrealistic that one civ (the human player's) starts out knowing the exact geography of the world, and even where future resources/civs will pop up.

The best thing I think would be a random map that was very earthlike. I.e. there would be a 'Eurasia-Africa' super-continent and an 'Americas' with semi-random form, with the civs in roughly the same geographical and chronological relationships. For example, Rome would start on a sea that partly divides the super-continent, and it would start 500~1500 years after Greece, etc. If the random landmass didn't have room for a Rome there, however, it might start somewhere a bit different or not even spawn at all. This way nothing could be predicted accurately, but it would still have the same feeling as earth history.

I don't know if this is possible. Certainly UHVs would have to be made much more general, or dropped. Just ideas.


yeah, it's what I'd try to do. A flexible mechanism. Of course the biggest obstacle is trying to figure out map scripts, and allow only a few of them to be played with the mod.

I'm curious how far you wan to take this. Some UUs are in desperate need of re-skining to make them historical (Immortals were not mounted (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persian_Immortals)). Jungle must be passable in random, and chop of them probably moved back to Iron Working. Otherwise any player spawning on an equatorial continent will have to quit and restart.

Speaking of UPs: Pharoahs is overpowered and unbeatable, Myriads and American Dreams are teetering on overpowered, Terraces is weak and could be made stronger by adding 1 food to all hills in addition to 2/1 for mountains, Faith needs to be tied to state religion, not Islam. Every other UP will port well.

EDIT: Ooops, can't talk about BTS UPs yet.

You should create a Wiki page where we can throw up these ideas for discussion.

A stupid idea : why not keeping the date when a new civ appears but without knowing which civ will appears? that way you may have american spawning before Jesus was born (you must keep a tech logic thought so they don't have canons in 1000BC) or having Aztecs appearing with a powerfull army when Americas were already colonized,etc...
not precisely hitorical accurate but a lot more surprises when you play for sure.

I don't know if the UHVs are needed in this type of scneario, since they supposed to be "Historical Victories"... and there is nothing historical in a randon map.

I like the sound of this... not knowing when a civ will spawn or which one.

I think it might be easier if you space it out the same way, just randomizing it like Cucumber said.

It'd be nice to play on random maps, Earth map, OR other pre-made maps.

Perhaps tying the city naming system to grid locations as opposed to actual individual maps?

Well this is a nice idea but I'll know I'll always be interested in the historical Earth map. I for one would be entirely happy to see the vanilla and warlords versions permanently retired if it means that the BtS version can continue to be improved.

^^

Yeah, as most of us will buy BtS just to see Rhye's masterpiece of artwork.

Assuming that the random map will be smaller than huge, this will leave several civs unselected yes? So, you can allow for that thing we talked about but couldn't implement because the civ list isn't dynamic. Right?

I was pondering this next project today and I take back my original comment. If RFC Random has civs appearing around their proper historical epoch in with neighbours in the same cultural-historical zone, then it would not be 'nice', it would be awesome. Playing as a European civ and genuinely discovering a 'New World' would be fantastic. It would be like playing Sid Meier's Colonization: it would have all the historical flavour of the real historical period, and I would know the Aztecs, Incans and Mayans would be hanging around somewhere, but there would be a genuine feeling exploration and discovery. Can't wait :goodjob: :crazyeye: :goodjob:

To be honest Rhye, I don't think anyone would hold it against you if you "pulled a Microsoft"; as in slapped the word: "LEGACY" on the Warlords and Vanilla versions, don't support them and don't update them anymore! ;-)

In my mind, you've done so well at essentially a solo job here with this mod, and at the end of the day you should never do something you aren't enjoying or would enjoy doing things slightly different, this is *your* mod, so do what you *want* to do with it :)

Do the Starting Dates with Events! Like "A drag queen named Boudicca is leading a rebelion in one of ours cities, do you think we need to reinforce our force in the city?"

>YOUR LACK OF FAITH IS DISBURTING, ONE LEGION IS ENOUGH! ( historical choice )

>REINFORCE TROOPS, AND CRUSH THE REBEL SCUM! ( the English civ starting date is delayed by 20turns )

>LET THEM BE... ( England is Born! )


or something like that... obviously, the choice that delay the starting date is the most expansive, the first one is cheap and the third one you pay nothing... but suffer the consequences.

PS: I now never England will rise with Boudica as it leader in the real world, this is just an example.

I still can't wrap my brain around how this mod will work on a random map, but... I'll keep my eye on this thread.

Hey, if you have a random map, maybe playing as Korea or one of the other not included in the mod options would be possible.

Then again, I just remembered about UHVs and stuff like that, so I guess that idea wouldn't work >.>

This guys done an Earth2 map script creates a map very similar to the earth but different everytime. I've played with it a couple of times and been impressed.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=184377

Sounds like thats what you'd want. Maybe with some tinkering to the jungle placements

Yea, I too would like to see how the random maps work exactly; in my experience, the random maps are boring and unrealistic. Everybody's land is, more or less, the same with a hodgepodge of different terrain. With the Earth map everyone has different terrain, different resources and as the player you must adopt a strategy which utilizes most effectively the land, resources, neighbors you have.

With the random maps I feel that I pursue exactly the same strategy on pretty much the same land every....single...game. Which is why I don't play them anymore (thanks Rhye! :) )

So if an Earth map can truly be simulated in the random game then I would try it out but I wouldn't like to play this on the random maps as they are currently configured right now.

That Earth2 script seems to me too much similar to the Earth.
But yeah, I mean to tie civs to latitudes besides being culturally linked

Considering the randomness of a random map, should we assume that the UHVs will be disabled?

To me this is bad news. I like this mod because it RFC and historical; historical locations, cities, civs. That separated it from regular civ game, which I got bored fast after finding this.

For me to... To me what makes Rhye's Rhye's is the historical nature of it. That's why I was hoping for Rhye's of Europe...

ltccone

It will be RFC Random.
It contains many problems: the main are spawn system and UHVs. Some features will be dropped.
But I, maybe for selfish reasons, want to make it. Selfish reasons are that it's a way to go back to my original goal: play a game myself.
I can't play RFC without being tempted to reveal the map, fix a bug, add/remove plague, make civs collapse as I snap my fingers, etc. And I tell I would do that. I love cheating.
I need a map that I don't know already tile-by-tile to awake interest in me...

Then, the bad news
- it will be for BTS only (unless Vishiang makes a conversion later). I just couldn't keep track of - wait - 6 versions! 3 normal, 3 random.
- I won't start working on it until BTS is out and possibily its first patch too, if it comes out early. And I won't be quick, it'll take some time and I haven't got much.



WOW WOW WOW! This is EXACTLY what I was wishing for! While I want it fully random (so no need for the historical time based events) but a chance to play with many of your cool new mechanics in my random map game (like empire stability and your own tech system), I'm sure many will only want stuff slightly mixed up.

So here is my suggestion right out of the gate, sorry if already made, but much like Dale's RtW, why not have a few different variations of this upcoming mod? Like only slightly randomized (still using the same basic world map but cities might be placed a few spaces off from their original, historical events at only slightly randomized periods, and resources (while not guaranteed) roughly in the same areas if there) to fully randomized game using your mechanics?

I can't wait to see what becomes of this!!

I can't wait for this either, I think making an Earth-like yet unpredictable random map is clearly the big challenge. Two hemispheres, one backwards, is definitely important. But you'll always know that there is land across the ocean, so I suppose you could only vary the size of that ocean. I think you could add a lot of variety by "removing" Africa and Australia and just having a highly randomised shape for Eurasia which may or may not include landmasses which resemble those continents. It would probably be nessecary to have a large semi-inland sea representing the Med, to gaurauntee a region like Europe.

Just my ideas... I'm sure you've already thought it through much more than I have.

Just a little dream I had, probably highly impractical, but would it be possible to simulate actualy tectonic drift? Start with a Pangea, and then run a simulation?

There's tectonics map script: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=149278

I've been playing a few games on it and I think it works really well

I would like a semi-random version. That is, your spawning spot isn't random at all, it's the real world. However, the further you go away from the spawn site, the more deviations there are from the real world. After all, when civilisations were founded they already knew a fair bit about their immediate neighbourhoods - that's easily simulated by the player's knowldege of the real world. They knew less about the stuff that wasn't too far away; stuff a month's walking distance was just rumour, and beyond thatc ompletely unknown.

I have no idea if this would be doable however. It's an idea I've had for games since before 1st edition Civ even came out - I've always wanted to do an Alexander the Great wargame where the "known world" is generated more or less as you march. He went places that were truly unknown to anybody back home. I went as far as to make up a bunch of trial hexagon-based maps that were were made in sections. Each successive "layer" out from the starting hex got progressively more random.

So in terms of a semi-random Civ4 RFC version, I'd hope for something like the world to be divided into blocks of say 5 by 5 sqaures. The starting area is fixed. The next layer of 9 blocks would have say the same number of resources and terrain tiles, as well as civilizations, etc. in each individual block as the real world, but not in the same exact pattern within the block. The next layer of 16 blocks would have say half the real life tile types and resources, and the other half random (according to latitude), and random civ placement; the next layer of 25 blocks would be completely random (by random it would still be generated according to some realistic earth-like mode of course, so deserts are at the right latitudes, etc.)

Cheers, Luke