what could we change in the constitution to give the citizens more power in their opinion?

* delete the cabinet polls
* force officials to comply to citizens polls if minimum requirements are met (for example minimum 2 days running poll, 10 citizens voted etc.)
* explicitly allow citizens to take part in discussions in the government-sub-forums

#1. This is part of the character of the game. In all votes so far, the citizens' preference has carried through the Council.

#2. If we make the Council Members only mouthpieces then there's little reason to elect them. Allowing the Council Members to vote their concience gives the citizens an insight into the Leaders' characters. There are 2 automatic votes (25% of the total) for the citizens.

3. This one is already in place, isn't it?

Get rid of the citizens!

That is, we have enough official spots to employ just about every citizen already. If everybody who's playing the game is actually involved in the government then everybody has a share of the power. There is discussion ongoing to create a few more Deputy spots as well.

so why use a government at all? if we open up discussions and we just make some the "discussion leaders" who will kind of organize the stuff colected in various discussions and present it in a special thread to the pres for the turn-chat, we would not need so many officials. citizens could vote for all decisions, only 6 officials would be needed to organize the info for the president. they dont even have to take part in the chat, because there everyone is voiced and can help the pres to play and take votes.

the leader will then be in their real role: organizing and collecting information for their special area.

Originally posted by disorganizer
so why use a government at all? if we open up discussions and we just make some the "discussion leaders" who will kind of organize the stuff colected in various discussions and present it in a special thread to the pres for the turn-chat, we would not need so many officials. citizens could vote for all decisions, only 6 officials would be needed to organize the info for the president. they dont even have to take part in the chat, because there everyone is voiced and can help the pres to play and take votes.

the leader will then be in their real role: organizing and collecting information for their special area.

Your ideas might work if we were paying our officials a salary. What you propose removes any incentive for people to run for office. It would be a lot of work for no gain.

It's an intriguing idea but I don't think it would work in our context. The Forum is already so big it's hard to keep track on it. If decisions started to be made in various threads and it was the Leaders' job to go find it, that would just be too much work.

if they departmental threads (or maybe new departmental discussion threads) are used for it, it is not more work (its the same work they should do now. and the same powers)

Originally posted by disorganizer
if they departmental threads (or maybe new departmental discussion threads) are used for it, it is not more work (its the same work they should do now. and the same powers)
Now I'm confused. If it's the same work and the same powers, then what is changed?

at the moment, its that they should go with the citizens. the new thing would be they MUST. and then the question is why the cabinet-polls are still needed the way they are used and stated in the constitution now.

all cabinet-vote discussion please go to http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=23047

Originally posted by disorganizer
at the moment, its that they should go with the citizens. the new thing would be they MUST. and then the question is why the cabinet-polls are still needed the way they are used and stated in the constitution now.

all cabinet-vote discussion please go to http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=23047
If we changed the rules so every Councilor had to vote according to a citizen poll then you are correct - we would not need Council Votes. We also wouldn't need At-Large Councilors.

I just don't think that's a good change.

please go to the mentioned thread to discuss it. following a discussion in 2 thread is hard

Originally posted by disorganizer
following a discussion in 2 thread is hard
Got that right! I think I misposted my last couple of replies. :lol:

Shaitan: That is, we have enough official spots to employ just about every citizen already. If everybody who's playing the game is actually involved in the government then everybody has a share of the power. There is discussion ongoing to create a few more Deputy spots as well.

I think this is a good idea to get involvement because we have some 30 active citizens playing the game (ie. involved in the forums). This is a reason why I applied for Deputy Trade in the first place. I'm not sure why Chiefpaco feels there should be less positions. Maybe it simplifies matters, or puts everyone on a more equal platform. If we have many more than 30, there would need to be other ways to get citizen involvement.

but if we give citizens more power, why should we have more officials?
btw:
deputies do not have more power than normal citizens. they only get more power in the COC on turn-chat and if the leader is away during a cabinet-vote.

That depends on the department though. The Military Department has a strong tradition of Deputy involvement dating back to the Domino War. Other departments vary by degrees, based mostly on Deputy desire for involvement.

but if we give citizens more power, why should we have more officials?

Because officials are citizens. Having more officials would give a feeling of being involved in the game to more people and it would be nice for everyone to have a significant role in the growth of Pheonatica. But officials should have less power because the game should ultimately be played by citizens and not the government, even though many citizens are also involved in the government! :)

they only get more power in the COC on turn-chat

The amount of influence of turn chat participants cannot be underestimated since surprises will always happen in chats like the war with Aztecs or someone forgetting to give turn chat instructions. In other words, anything that was not already decided in the forums, which is still a significant part of the game.

which involvement? every citizen can be involved if they want to. but deputies are not allowed to post cabinet-polls. whats the difference between deputy and citizen if the leader is there?
NONE
maybe the leader listens closer to his deputy, but thats the leaders problem. the deputies function is only to backup the leader. nothing else.

Originally posted by Zur
Because officials are citizens. Having more officials would give a feeling of being involved in the game to more people and it would be nice for everyone to have a significant role in the growth of Pheonatica.
That's what I was trying to say! (I just didn't put it so well.)
Originally posted by disorganizer
which involvement? every citizen can be involved if they want to. but deputies are not allowed to post cabinet-polls. whats the difference between deputy and citizen if the leader is there?
Proposal - Deputies may post Info or Opinion polls dealing with their department.

Thoughts?

wouldnt a change in the constitution to clarify the rights of the citizens be the better way? the deputy-position does nothing else than a citizen, but the citizen position is not clearly described in the constitution. ppl read the constitution and think only the government and deputies have power, but this is not true.
making more deputies is just fake. there is no real gameplay difference to now.

Yeah, a clarification in the Constitution is definitely desired - like we were discussing in the other thread. I'll try to get something ready to look at by tomorrow.

so the other discussion (more deputies/mandates) should also go to http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=23047

thanks

Shai:Proposal - Deputies may post Info or Opinion polls dealing with their department.

yah, I agree with the info thingy. Everyone should be allowed to post polls, or is that being discussed now in a different thread?
These are already being done, btw.

Dis: wouldnt a change in the constitution to clarify the rights of the citizens be the better way?

Definitely, changing of the constitution would help to bring more power to citizens, but having more positions would also help in fostering a better sense of belonging.

Dis: making more deputies is just fake. there is no real gameplay difference to now.

Not really. Deputies do have a role to play however small. The gameplay difference is when citizens feel more involved and thus contribute more. eg. I don't only involve myself in trade issues, but also others which I feel strongly about.

Originally posted by disorganizer
so the other discussion (more deputies/mandates) should also go to http://forums.civfanatics.com/showt...&threadid=23047

thanks
That link isn't working for some reason. Try this one. (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=23047)