Apparently someone posted a list already, but the moderators pulled it at Firaxis's request. So, here is what I would like to see in no particular order (many of which are not my idea):

1. If you demand and receive tribute you can't declare war for 10 turns.

2. Castles and Walls don't obsolete if you are Protective.

3. Imperialistic no longer gets the Settler bonus but gets 50% off the distance component of city maintenance.

4. Rifleman take two popluation to draft.

5. Production bonuses don't apply to whipping.

6. Divine Right gives a Great Prophet and Versailles is moved to Monarchy.

7. Better AI mod gets completed and incorporated with copious amount of playtesting to ensure balance (we know its in, but not the second part).

8. Slavery civic is enabled by Metal Casting (nod to T-Hawk).

9. You get a chance to make immediate peace if someone vassalizes an opponent you are at war with.

10. The AI troop upgrade bonuses are made sane.

Any others out there?

Darrell

8. Slavery civic is enabled by Metal Casting (nod to T-Hawk).

I'm behind making it to the same tech doesn't enable both early game methods for rush builds, but why Metal Casting? I guess I don't really understand the reasoning behind tying Slavery to BW in the first place, either historically or from a game balance perspective.

Another: aircraft can sink ships and bombard railroads, as well as destroy city buildings.

6. Divine Right gives a Great Prophet


I think this would be a great addition. Would really help Islam get up and out there. Some of the rest of your ideas were pretty good too.

I always thought that slavery should be moved to animal husbandry. That way you have two techs that both unlock a key resource and a rushing method. Also, AH is basicaly keeping animals in slavery, so I don't see why keeping humans in slavery is that different.

I always thought that slavery should be moved to animal husbandry. That way you have two techs that both unlock a key resource and a rushing method. Also, AH is basicaly keeping animals in slavery, so I don't see why keeping humans in slavery is that different.

I suppose its each to their own, because I always thought slavery fitted the Priesthood better.

Apparently someone posted a list already, but the moderators pulled it at Firaxis's request.

Then why are you making another one? :hmm: The moderators will probably pull this one...:dunno:

I suppose its each to their own, because I always thought slavery fitted the Priesthood better.

Any special reason, Dr. Nietzsche?

;)

Actually, slavery doesn't really fit well with any early tech that I can see. (Perhaps it deserves one of its own.) Agriculture maybe? Hunting?

Why is bronze working so special?

2. Castles and Walls don't obsolete if you are Protective.

I think this wouldn't work from a sensibility perspective. Having walls and castles help defend your city from tanks and gunships would be silly. I do agree that protective needs some help- maybe double production of bunkers and bomb shelters?

I agree with the rest of the suggestions, especially number 9.

Any special reason, Dr. Nietzsche?

;)

Actually, slavery doesn't really fit well with any early tech that I can see. (Perhaps it deserves one of its own.) Agriculture maybe? Hunting?

Why is bronze working so special?

I suppose I was thinking of general ancient history. Men becoming enslaved by others, generally demands a ruling class of men who consider themselves superior in some way to those that they enslave. Most of these early ruling classes came to the fore, with the development of a ruling class in the form of a priesthood.

That's all, just a possible idea, and enough offtopic from me ;)

I'm behind making it to the same tech doesn't enable both early game methods for rush builds, but why Metal Casting? I guess I don't really understand the reasoning behind tying Slavery to BW in the first place, either historically or from a game balance perspective.

Shackles, I guess. Certainly it would be easier to mass produce them after Metal Casting, but mostly it is just to push such a powerful civic back and make early rushes a bit more difficult. Animal Hunsbandry would have the opposite affect!

@dutchking - this isn't a "real" list, this is a wish list. Someone apparently got a leaked copy of the the real list from Firaxis and that was what they didn't want to see posted (or re-posted).

@Crenor - yeah, it doesn't make a lot of real sense but Protective needs sucha big boost and I'm not sure bunkers and bomb shelters are it. Maybe the boost would be zero cost Walls/Castles/Bunkers/Bomb Shelters, i.e. when the requisite tech is known they appear in all your cities? That would probably be a bit much.

I'm surprised no one has mentioned any adjustment to war weariness :).

Darrell

Darrell--good list.
I agree with the comments about protective--it's pretty useless and not sure how to buff it.

Protective is getting a boost, 3 actualy.
1) the great wall requires 3 cities to have walls - so protective civs will find it a lot easier to build

2) castles give +25% expionage

3) Gunpowder units can now promote along the drill line


Personaly, I think thats enough. its still a weakish traits for most strategies, but is not completely useless.

"Shackles, I guess. Certainly it would be easier to mass produce them after Metal Casting, but mostly it is just to push such a powerful civic back and make early rushes a bit more difficult."

Come to think of it, speaking more broadly another solutions is to enable tree chopping and slavery using different techs. Right now BW is too important of a tech that there isn't much choice of the 1st or 2nd tech you research. They should break that up a little, it would be better for gameplay to distribute some of those advantages a little more.

They need to bring back the flavor to Civilization! (there's a thread somewhere like that). Reading about BtS I think they've done that! :goodjob:

1. If you demand and receive tribute you can't declare war for 10 turns.

I like it (or at least that should be a negotiatable part of it.)


2. Castles and Walls don't obsolete if you are Protective.

Disagree
What I would put in is Bunkers and Bombshelters having a similar Military effect (harder to reduce defense %, as well as offering defense against both Air AND artillery).. and then maybe give protective Cheaper Bunkers+BombShelters


3. Imperialistic no longer gets the Settler bonus but gets 50% off the distance component of city maintenance.

Disagree, the Settler bonus is good.. and if they got a maintenance bonus it should be against Number of Cities Maintenance, not distance (makes SP stranger)


4. Rifleman take two popluation to draft.

Don't they already?


5. Production bonuses don't apply to whipping.

Seriously disgree, that is a Very bad change, as it opens the door to all sorts of complicated micromanagy manipulations with overflow...it was a bug when they had it.


6. Divine Right gives a Great Prophet and Versailles is moved to Monarchy.

Agree with first part, I think Verssailes is fine as is though
What Divine Right really needs is a bonus for those who don't get there first.. I think something like +1 happy for state religion might be good (or maybe +1 happy for state religion Temples for a more limited version)
Also Philosophy should give 2 Missionaries, and Theology and Divine Right should give 4


7. Better AI mod gets completed and incorporated with copious amount of playtesting to ensure balance (we know its in, but not the second part).

falls into the Of course


8. Slavery civic is enabled by Metal Casting (nod to T-Hawk).

Disagree, Metal Casting is too late, I'd either place it with Animal Husbandry (treat people like animals) or keep it with Bronze working (when you get the metal tools to shackle +brand, and the weapons to actually collect slaves). In any case the Medium maintenance has nerfed it enough.


9. You get a chance to make immediate peace if someone vassalizes an opponent you are at war with.

NO, at least not necessarily... Me vassalizing your enemy = Me declaring war on you. there should be less of a 'we just started this war and so won't talk to you' effect though.


10. The AI troop upgrade bonuses are made sane.

True, hopefully part of the new handicap levels the AI will have sane
Upgrade And War Weariness costs...the AI had basically no War Weariness before


Lets see...
11. Production bonuses Should apply to food (during Worker/Settler production)


12. Global Warming needs to be totaly revamped, to be something interesting.

Don't they already?

Nope, just one. It is the biggest abuse in the game to have a high food Globe city draft a Rifleman every turn. This would also make the Musketman more attractive, since they would become the best one pop per draft unit.

Seriously disgree, that is a Very bad change, as it opens the door to all sorts of complicated micromanagy manipulations with overflow...it was a bug when they had it.
...
Disagree, Metal Casting is too late, I'd either place it with Animal Husbandry (treat people like animals) or keep it with Bronze working (when you get the metal tools to shackle +brand, and the weapons to actually collect slaves). In any case the Medium maintenance has nerfed it enough.

:eek:. One of the easiest tactics in the game is an early rush which is often fueled by whipping, making Slavery earlier is certainly not going to help that. I think the civic is too powerful and Medium maintenance alone is not enough to nerf it, but I'm afraid the Slave revolts they added are too much. IMO Firaxis has a bad history here as the cash rush nerf was way overboard. In terms of excessive micromanagement without bonuses, I'm not sure I get it. One pop gives 30 hammers no matter what. Can you explain?

What Divine Right really needs is a bonus for those who don't get there first.. I think something like +1 happy for state religion might be good (or maybe +1 happy for state religion Temples for a more limited version)

Yeah, your right. Adding another "first to" bonus isn't the way to make this tech suck less. I like the idea of +1 happy for state relgion Temples, or maybe make it state religion Monasteries.

NO, at least not necessarily... Me vassalizing your enemy = Me declaring war on you. there should be less of a 'we just started this war and so won't talk to you' effect though.

I'd agree with this if the AI calculus took into account the impact of vassalizing someone I'm crushing, but it doesn't seem to. I'd be satisifed with being able to talk to them immediately.

11. Production bonuses Should apply to food (during Worker/Settler production).

Hmm...I guess that makes sense.

12. Global Warming needs to be totaly revamped, to be something interesting.

Definitely!

Darrell

Vassal state makes the master declare war on the vassals enemy.

no way. i hate it. XD

Mine:

1. I'd like combat to be less random.

2. I'd like it if the human player is treated the same as an AI faction in diplomacy. There's just too many penalties right now that only come into play on human vs. AI interactions as opposed to AI vs. AI interactions.

3. Make navies more important. They should be able to do more against coastal cities as well as to units and cities a few tiles away. Make coastal cities give bigger rewards to compensate for the risk.

4. I'd like to see them add an option to randomize enemy difficulty. I liked it in Gal Civ 2, where if you choose normal difficulty, not all AIs will be normal difficulty. Some will be a bit easier and some a bit harder. They can limit it to 1-2 difficulty settings and it'll work well.

5. I'd actually like to see AIs fight each other. They rarely make war on each other and if they do, almost nothing ever happens. I think I have more chances of winning the lottery than seeing an AI faction eliminate another AI faction.

5. I'd actually like to see AIs fight each other. They rarely make war on each other and if they do, almost nothing ever happens. I think I have more chances of winning the lottery than seeing an AI faction eliminate another AI faction.

Way too true, hope this has changed dramatically.
To get in on an earlier discussion, I think slavery should remain how it is. The medium upkeep is fine, and well, slave civs were dang powerful, they built the pyramids, Chichen Itza, the Collosseum, etc.
A supply of expendable labor is great, and also realistic. Plus you have to decide how you want to grow and work tiles, vs. getting the payoff now.
I suppose if they made the unhappiness last longer, that might be an okay tradeoff, more of a backlash.

Nope, just one. It is the biggest abuse in the game to have a high food Globe city draft a Rifleman every turn. This would also make the Musketman more attractive, since they would become the best one pop per draft unit.


Haven't used the drafting much, although I think that one probably needs to be rehashed as well in the sense of not allowing for micromanagy penalties Perhaps it removes food from the box to 'finish off' anything.


:eek:. One of the easiest tactics in the game is an early rush which is often fueled by whipping, making Slavery earlier is certainly not going to help that. I think the civic is too powerful and Medium maintenance alone is not enough to nerf it, but I'm afraid the Slave revolts they added are too much. IMO Firaxis has a bad history here as the cash rush nerf was way overboard. In terms of excessive micromanagement without bonuses, I'm not sure I get it. One pop gives 30 hammers no matter what. Can you explain?


Because some of those 30 Hammers overflows into the next thing, the Fact is Slavery should be treated like chopping, because it is essentially the same. Getting all Hammers that could overflow to be treated the same was a Major method of preventing micromanagement manipulation.
The unhappiness penalty is what keeps slavery under control, even though it is a very efficient means of production. (I think the Unhappiness penalty should be revamped too, something like 6 turns per population lost, so whip 2 pop= 12 turns, 1 pop=6, 4 pop=24)

Actually Cash rush is still powerful it means 3 processed commerce(gold)=1 processed hammer (no bonuses) Because of that cost structure, Gold bought hammers never Overflow, and because Banks come before Factories, it is definitely reasonable. A US Town is the equivalent of 3.3 Hammers, better than any other improvement except the SP Watermill, 3.6 Hammers with a 1:1 Hammer:Food conversion, and that has limited placement)
(I did a Malinese game where the only factories were in My Wonder+Heroic Epic City, everything else was bought...got the Pyramids so as to allow easy US once I had enough Towns.)


Yeah, your right. Adding another "first to" bonus isn't the way to make this tech suck less. I like the idea of +1 happy for state relgion Temples, or maybe make it state religion Monasteries.


Yeah Monasteries, might be good, because then it would obsolete, although I think
DR->Great Prophet and 4 Missionaries (not just 1 Missionary)
Theology->4 Missionaries
Philosophy->3 Missionaries


I'd agree with this if the AI calculus took into account the impact of vassalizing someone I'm crushing, but it doesn't seem to. I'd be satisifed with being able to talk to them immediately.


They are supposed to, at least after the patch to warlords

One other
13. Improve Great Generals
a-Allow a Leader to get 1 or 2 free promotions
b-Make Military Academies: +25% but available with Writing +25% more with Military Science
c-Make the Heroic Epic only +50% but it gives 1 GG point every time you build a military unit from that city.

Too big a change for an expansion, but the simplistic combat system need to be fixed! Why are units in large stacks attacking and defending separately? That is just too silly to ignore. :huh: