Should we build another army or rush a wonder?

If a wonder, which one?

Available:

Bach's Cathedral
Copernicus's Observatory
Forbidden Palace

Should we save him?

Should we use him for something else?

I suggest we rush the Forbidden Palace in Thebes. The sudden boost to productivity will keep us ahead of the pack.

As logical as rushing the FP would be, I would like to put forth another idea. We could rush J.S. Bach's cathedral right in Justinian, where he is now. This would be a big boost to our cultural assault, as well as adding 2 content in all cities, freeing up some entertainers and causing more WLTKD. Although the FP is important as well, we can build that on our own, while many nations are already building Bachs, and if we don't do it now, we will probably not get it.

While I am not against rushing Bach's, I do not want to rush it that close to the border for security reasons.

I think Forbidden Palace construction is well in hand. Quick building JS Bach will help everywhere as 2 contents are added in every city. I'd love to see it in Justininan but I agree with Eyrei that a more secure location would be prudent.

Here is some info on building the FP in Thebes:

We are currently 41 turns away at 4 shields/turn (s/t)
We can put an entertainer to work and keep WLTKD giving 5 s/t and a completion time of 33 turns.
We could up the lux rate to 20%, use one entertainer and get 6 s/t and finish it in 28 turns.
We could set the lux rate at 50%, use no entertainers and produce 7 s/t and complete the FP in 24 turns.
We could rush JS Bach's cathedral and get increased production in Thebes without raising the lux rate so high.
We could rush a cathedral in Thebes, making six unhappy citizens content without raising lux rate. Current cost is 496 gold.
We could rush a market in Thebes for 256 gold. We would have to up the lux rate some in order to take advantage of the market.

Originally posted by donsig
Here is some info on building the FP in Thebes:

We are currently 41 turns away at 4 shields/turn (s/t)
We can put an entertainer to work and keep WLTKD giving 5 s/t and a completion time of 33 turns.
We could up the lux rate to 20%, use one entertainer and get 6 s/t and finish it in 28 turns.
We could set the lux rate at 50%, use no entertainers and produce 7 s/t and complete the FP in 24 turns.
We could rush JS Bach's cathedral and get increased production in Thebes without raising the lux rate so high.
We could rush a cathedral in Thebes, making six unhappy citizens content without raising lux rate. Current cost is 496 gold.
We could rush a market in Thebes for 256 gold. We would have to up the lux rate some in order to take advantage of the market.

It seems the best option may then be to rush Bach's Cathedral in some city, and then tweak Thebes to have a WLTK day. If we rushed Bach's and a market in Thebes, it should have a WLTK day without any entertainers, so that would be another good option.

Lets do Bach's Cathedral - but not in Justinian (too close to border)

FP in Thebes is pretty much taking care of itself - ie. with a little tweaking (as indicated above by donsig and eyrei) it should be fine.

Here is some info regarding the security in Justinian:

Garrison: reg Musket, reg pike, elite pike (4 hp), reg knight (2 hp), vet knight (1 hp), elite immortal, Justinian has walls

Forces nearby: elite immortal (2 hp), elite knight (4 hp), 2 vet knights (one has 3 hp)

We can rush a barracks in justinian for 156 gold then upgrade the pikemen to muskets for another 120 gold.

There is an Aztec swordsman in sight and the Babylonians have knights and longbowmen nearby. (We are at peace with Babylon but they are a rogue nation.)

The leader is in Macao which is defended by an immortal and two pikemen. Macao also has walls and a barracks can be rushed for 80 gold. Upgrading the two pikes would be another 120 gold.

It would be good to hear the General's assessment of security in Macao and Justinian.

Justinian seems quite well appointed. If we can keep a comparable force level in place I would support Bach's right there. As Justus II mentioned, it would be a massive weapon in our cultural assault.

Justinian is indeed well garrisoned - but that situation kinda depends on what's happening with the Aztec war. If we can get a peace with the Aztecs, then the Justinian location for JSB's C is pretty safe - and as noted a massive cutural weapon. If we stay at war, there will be questions of strategy which will be complicated by the need to strongly defend the Cathedral

I am not particularly worried about Justinian's current situation. I am referring more to later in the game, when units such as tanks are sent our way, or even as soon as cavalry. The AI is known to send huge hordes of cavalry at border cities, and there is usually little one can do about it, as there is little time to react. A border city with a wonder is not a good idea, in my opinion. Let's put it somewhere safe. The culturally assauly can be accomplished in other ways....

Originally posted by eyrei
I am not particularly worried about Justinian's current situation. I am referring more to later in the game, when units such as tanks are sent our way, or even as soon as cavalry. The AI is known to send huge hordes of cavalry at border cities, and there is usually little one can do about it, as there is little time to react. A border city with a wonder is not a good idea, in my opinion. Let's put it somewhere safe. The culturally assauly can be accomplished in other ways....

But if the cultural assault is successful, it will no longer be a border city.

Originally posted by punkbass2000


But if the cultural assault is successful, it will no longer be a border city.

That far from our capital, cultural assimilation is a long shot. We may get one or possibly even two cities to flip, but not enough to make Justinian an interior city, safe from attack.

The Cultural Assault Program (CAP) was put on the back burner in favor of prepping Thebes for Forbidden Palace Construction (FPC) since there were not funds to do both. It is hoped that CAP can be funded once again but the competition for funds is fierce. In addition of more possible prep work in Thebes, there is defense spending to reconsider now that we are at war. If we have to up the luxury rate then our surplus will shrink or we will have to reduce R&D expenditures. We may want to consider CAP II to secure the gems near Tlaxcala. Finally, our new city in province 5 was not built yet because the Greek borders expanded. Building Bach's Cathedral in Justinian or Macao may be all there is to CAP for awhile!

I agree with build JSBach's, as it will lessen the amount of luxeries for things like WLTKD. (Which would help our FP). Plus, other nations are already hard at work on JSBach, and even Copernicus's Obs.. There's only one JSBach, but the FP can be built over and over (if it's captured, destroyed, etc.).

Also, if not a war trophy for Justinian :), then maybe put it in our most culturally advanced city.

I also vote for JS Bach's. I would hate to see it burned down by enemy forces (now or later in the game) so I recommend sending the leader north. Personally I like Khatovar because the new wonder might put it up on the top 5 list. Fox Nest will probably keep the number 1 spot. Of course PDX would get to the list easier than Khatovar, and both would be able to start the wonder in 2 turns, so I guess PDX would be best. 2 cities in the top 5 may give the AI something else to worry about.

I agree: build Bach's. The arguments against building it in Justinian are compelling. I would recommend building it further north. PDX, perhaps, like Cyc suggested.

In any case USE the leader. Don't "save" him for something else. You can only have one at a time, and since we're at war, we may get another one.

It seems like jsut about everybody supports using the leader to build Bach's and the majority don't want it in Justinian. Do we need a poll to decide where?

Achaemenes is in Macao and can still move 5 tiles this turn.

We can rush in Macao or Justinian now

or

in Macao (20), Justinian (2), Byblos (37), Elephantine (15), Thebes (36), Asyut (16), Malinalco (88), Civanatoria (27), Khatovar (10) or Fox Nest next turn.

Any other cities would take at least one more turn for the leader to reach.

If we are to use the leader ASAP then we must pick one of these cities and do the rush before we make any more attacks.

We have an elite knight and an elite immortal that can attack the Aztec swordsman next round.

Only Fox Nest is set to complete its current build next turn. Any other city would have to sacrifice shields or rush now. the numbers in parenthesis above indicate the number of shields each city has stored up towards its next build. The market in Malinalco can be rushed now for 48 gold.

Nice analysis, Donsig. These numbers make Justinian even more attractive to me. :(

I'd take Macao as my second choice. A rank further back from Justinian but still a prime CAP city. Rush the lowest cost improvement and then next turn build Bach's.

I would go for Bachs. I'm not sure where though. The Greeks culture is on the rise as is the Iroquois. I would lean toward rushing Bachs close to Greece and garrison the city well.
As far as the FP in Thebes, we will build it and in grabbing Bachs the other AIs will have to either go for something else or waste shields.
We will be in a position to build Adam's Co. in a little while....

You didn't mention the knight? in PDX.

I'm fine with Bach's or rushing the FP. Another possibility is rushing Smiths', but I gather that would have been mentioned if it were to be seriously considered.

I believe Bach's should be constructed somewhere in the province of Asphinxia to put pressure on borders around the next centre of our empire. Perhaps Memphis, El-Amarna, Callisto, or Elephantine. I think our cultural assault will be most valuable around the area of our FP, so that towns that convert to our empire will be most productive.

If it were to be placed in a frontier town, a considerable garrison would need to be placed there.

Really, I think any location, we could defend from the Aztecs with, however potential future hostiles is another more questionable.

We've got 2 extra mustkets in the interior, FORITIFIED, they need to be sent to the front regardless. 1 (of two) in Eyr and 1 (with a Pike) in Khatovar. These can reinforce the Bach's location.

Originally posted by Cyc
You didn't mention the knight? in PDX.

It would take the leader an extra turn to reach PDX so I didn't include it. There is also talk of using PDX to pre-build a different wonder.

I think we should build the FP normally since it would take a few turns for the leader to reach Thebes and we would be wasting 50 shields already accumulated there. The FP will also complete in only 20+ turns if we build it normally. I don't see why a WLTKD is needed now in Thebes since it will give more good shields if WLTKD is not forced upon it.

We should build Bach because our cities could get BIG in the future if we take a peaceful approach. We should actually rush it in the crappiest, most corrupt city without any accumulated shields because its location does not matter (on the continent) and productive cities can build other stuff normally.

Chieftess:it will lessen the amount of luxeries for things like WLTKD.

I just learnt in the last chat that luxuries only make content pple happy, but not unhappy ones content, which would explain why I sometimes get more unhappy pple than I expect. So luxuries are doing a different thing from Bach.

The domestic department is sponsoring a poll to decide where to rush JS Bach's cathedral.

Please vote! (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=23142)