How would the government know how much money to collect from each person? or was the same amount of money collected from everyone regardless of how much they made

Very interesting question. Depends on which kingdom and time period you are referring to.

For example in ancient China (Han, Tang dynasties), taxes on the peasant population will comprise of a percentage of the grain harvested and also in the form of state military service. But these are only enforceable in certain core areas. Censuses would be taken to register peasant households and their lands.

The imperial govt will otherwise draw extra revenues fr state monopolies such as salt and iron producing enterprises etc.

Later on, taxes were also collected in the form of money (esp fr the Southern Song onwards) when paper money became more prevalent. But would be more common in the form of produce. The imperial govt often paid its officials in some money, supplemented by goods (silk, grain etc).

Often as a percentage of production. Ag areas had to forfeit a fraction of crops. Laborers would have to either produce a quantity of something for the gov't (e.g. horseshoes, bolts of cloth) or work for a set period of time for the gov't if they produced no goods in their work.

How was this enforced? Thick necked goons with adequate weapons to instill compliance in anybody who receives a visit! :eek: The comic stereotype of the huge, muscular, mean tax collector is based in reality...

The collection of taxes always says alot about the kind of society and how it's organized. What gets taxed (properties, activities, children, labor, production, etc.), who, how much, how it's collected, what happens to it, etc. are all questions that need to be answered. The earliest tax revolts in history are recorded in ancient Mesopotamia. Taxation also leads to lots of bureaucracy, so for instance historians of the medieval period in Europe often find that the earliest records available are tax records, and other historical social researchers find a treasure trove of info in tax-related censuses like the Domes Day Book in England. 19th and 20th century nationalists relied on early medieval taxation records and censuses to establish their ethnic claims in modern Europe, for instance.

The essence of taxation is who has the right to levy and collect them, a dire political question that humans have struggled with throughout our history. It raises questions about the relationships involved with property, ownership, individual rights, services and services-in-kind, sovereignty, control, etc. Taxation has also been at the root of some of humanity's most contentious struggles, for instance being the prime motivation behind the American Revolution or playing a role in the foundation of modern Polish anti-Semitism when 17th and 18th century Polish nobles used Jewish proxies to collect harsh taxes from Polish and Ukrainian peasants.

How taxes are collected depends again on the society. Here in the U.S. just a few weeks ago I had to explain to a puzzled Hungarian woman at a cashier the concept of a sales tax, a common thing here but unknown in (Eastern) Europe. Conversely all of Europe uses huge gas taxes but many American states don't.

in ancient israel there where poeple of the roman R.S.A
on important places in citys.they could stop everyone to pay the taxes and a little bonus for the taxman himself.
once you payed the taxes you get a round metal thing to proof you paid it.
this was the system in ancient israel occupied by the romans:)

One famous example is the so-called window tax, used in places like England as a means of identifying wealth (glass windows were seen as an expensive luxury, so it was easy to find them and tax them as a form of property tax; send a guy to the door, say "hi I'm with the king, and I need 4s3pence for your 16 windows please."

Ditto the beard tax, which was also a form of social engineering. Peter the Great wanted to modernize Russia, and felt that beards were too primitive for his new western kingdom, so he charged a tax on wearing a beard; if you'd paid it, you got a special necklace so that soldiers and tax officials who passed you by didn't chop yer bleedin' head off.

A lot of Renaissance, Medieval and early Napoleanic taxes in Europe were based on the visible things in life that could be found and taxed. Stamps. Bits of paper. Imports. The idea of income or sales taxes is relatively new, frankly.

And, Fart, for your sake, I will refrain from repeating my homily of several months back about how hard it is to converse with a ball of excreted methane gas.

R.III

Before some idiot writes in and says "they didn't tax stamps, they used them to show that taxes had been paid," well, that's what I meant.

Wouldn't that be a bit of a random and inefficient method, Philippe?

From what I know fo the romans, their process for running tax was as follow :

Step the first : Obtain information on who should pay what taxes. The prefered mean of doing so was usually something called a "census". You may have heard of them.

Contrary to popular (ie, Christian) belief, a census did not involve going to the town of origin of your family to register. Anyone can imagine the bureaucratic nightmare. Besides which, they wanted to know where and how the people worked, now where and how they were born, which they coudl simply ask about.

Step the second : Send in the tax collector, armed with his trusty census result (to know who should pay what).

Step the third : Said tax collector collect money, food, etc, as determined by census result and his own wants.

Step the fourth : Punish the non-payers.

Step the fifth : restart at the second step at reasonable intervals.

As far as I know, under the Romans only the plebs and the common working people were taxed at a fixed rate and the collectors were brutal if they were not paid at the earliest:vampire:

Well that's what I learnt from Caesar3;)
Love that game.:love:

In England, I forget what time period this was in, I think it was something like the 1600s or something.

They did this MASSIVE nationwide survey called the Doomsday Book (because it left nobody unaccounted for) which listed things like everyone's land, fish ponds, cows ect ect.

The king then used that book in order to more effectively collect taxes.

In England, I forget what time period this was in, I think it was something like the 1600s or something.

They did this MASSIVE nationwide survey called the Doomsday Book (because it left nobody unaccounted for) which listed things like everyone's land, fish ponds, cows ect ect.

The king then used that book in order to more effectively collect taxes.It was much earlier, in 1086 I think, at the orders of the Conqueror.

China also did such censuses, on a much larger and vaster scale and more frequently.

Originally posted by philippe
in ancient israel there where poeple of the roman R.S.A
on important places in citys.they could stop everyone to pay the taxes and a little bonus for the taxman himself.
once you payed the taxes you get a round metal thing to proof you paid it.
this was the system in ancient israel occupied by the romans:)
The Romans were also good at using local traditions to increase revenue. In Palestine, they knew that prayer and sacrifice at the temple was important to the Jews, so they sold doves and other small animals, along with incense and other worship goods at inflated prices. Also, people could only use Tyrian shekels to purchase goods at the Temple, so the Romans and their collaborators among the High Priests set up money changers so that people could change their regular shekels into Tyrian shekels. It was widely known that the exchange rate offered by the money changers was unfair and was just another way for Romans to make money. This is what Jesus of Nazareth was protesting when he pushed over the money changer's tables and gave his "This is a house of God" speech.

My father was a Director of Training for the UK Inland Revenue.

Occasionally they had international conferences with delegates
from other countries (mainly commonwealth) but also with others.
The idea was to exchange ideas.

One topic was what do you with the problem of tax evaders?


Question: What do you do with tax evasion?

Ethiopian
Delegate: That is not a problem in Ethiopia!


Question: But what about the people who don't pay taxes?

Ethiopian
Delegate: The people pay taxes.


Question: Yes, but what about those individuals who don't?

Ethiopian
Delegate: We cut off their arm.
We do not have a problem with people who don't pay.


That was in the 1970s (before the communists took over).

Originally posted by Sabotage
In England, I forget what time period this was in, I think it was something like the 1600s or something.

:lol:

Not that I know much about Australian history ;)

Myself I believe that the ideal way to collect tax is purely through income tax. Of course all the loopholes that can be exploited allowing people to receve money and other rewards makes this impossible, but as a leveller it would be great.

If you wanted to start a revolution in those days all you had to do was turn away the King's taxman, it was all very peaceful really until the King sent the Army in... :(

Originally posted by JoeM


:lol:

Not that I know much about Australian history ;)

Myself I believe that the ideal way to collect tax is purely through income tax. Of course all the loopholes that can be exploited allowing people to receve money and other rewards makes this impossible, but as a leveller it would be great.

If you wanted to start a revolution in those days all you had to do was turn away the King's taxman, it was all very peaceful really until the King sent the Army in... :(


For loopholes, see Kerry Packer for last year

After earning an estimated $32 Million dollars he paid less than $100 income tax. And still had a sook about it.

I think he should have his arm cut off.

In the 18th century, in Brazil, our rulers in Portugal had stablished a back tax called "Derrama", that was rather simple:

Since "Minas Gerais" lands had rich mines, the King demanded a fixed amount of gold each year, regardless of how much was actually produced.

In the event of simply not having enought to satisfy the king's expectation, the portuguese controled troops should go into the people houses and confiscate whatever it took to fill the gap.

This constant threat was the main reason behind the first organized movement for the freedom of Brazil, the "Inconfidência Mineira".

Boy, it sure sucks to be a colony.

Regards :) .

:crazyeye:
When we first lived in caves,taxes were probably collected with a club.
:beer: [dance] :beer:

Originally posted by Knight-Dragon
It was much earlier, in 1086 I think, at the orders of the Conqueror.

China also did such censuses, on a much larger and vaster scale and more frequently.

Yup, 1086, and is one of hte most comprehensive documents in existence for life in the 11th Cen.

Oh, and its "Domesday Book"

http://www.domesdaybook.co.uk/