View Full Version : Where should we build Heroic Epic?


Provolution
Jul 16, 2007, 07:04 AM
Where should we build Heroic Epic?

When we have researched literature, where should we build it?

We have had discussions on the topic for some weeks, and now it is time to poll it, as we have researched literature this turnchat.

This is a public poll, will last 3 days, and simple plurality wins if more than 40 % of the votes go to a single option. Otherwise, we should repoll the three most popular locations.


Pisae
Neapolis
Cumae
Munich
Berlin
Coppertown
Other
Abstain

Provolution
Jul 16, 2007, 07:14 AM
I would as Warlord advocate Pisae. The city will have a forge soon, and with future Drydocks, we can long term use Pisae as a naval base. Being close to the Roman border also helps, since we can cut down logistical time to a minimum.

Pisae got several hills and a forge, and will be a great units producer placed where it should be. 200 hammers for Heroic Epic.

by the way, Daveshack put me on this idea.

Why not Berlin?

I see Berlin as either a commercial/science city with all the wines and resources as well as river, whereas Berlin may get the Forbidden Palace

Why not Munich? This city may need some basic infrastructure first, and could also be a commercial city with all the resources around it.


Why not Coppertown?

Hopelessly placed behind the front, and it would even get worse when the game get overseas, where Coppertown never can produce naval units. Pisae can produce both.

Why not Neapolis?

Too weak hammers and too bad location.

dutchfire
Jul 16, 2007, 07:25 AM
Voted Coppertown, as it has the best production center that will be able to focus on military soon.

Provolution
Jul 16, 2007, 07:30 AM
I would argue a good number two for Heroic Epic would be Munich, since it has potential and is close to the front. 12 hammers and increasing.

But Pisae has the long term potential, as we need a strong navy as well.
There has been almost no initiatives to build a navy so far.

dutchfire
Jul 16, 2007, 07:58 AM
Why do we need a navy?

Unless we want to mount a cross-oceanic invasion (which is usually a pain), there's absolutely no need for a real navy.

Provolution
Jul 16, 2007, 08:01 AM
First of all, it is good for the game, both strategically and entertainmentwise.

We may need to colonize islands, we may want to stop invaders, we may need to have scouting vessels out. There are many needs with a navy. I think you are using words like "absolutely" and so on too much. Navy could still be a key component to the game. I see "absolute" thinking, no reflection.

I was arrested for not listening to others, same can happen to you.

dutchfire
Jul 16, 2007, 08:05 AM
Colonize Island: Continents maps don't have considerable islands
Stop invaders: The AI is pretty much rubbish at invading, so they usually send a small stack that can more easily be beaten on land than on sea.
Scouting Vessels: How many scouting vessels do we really need? Two, tops?

Provolution
Jul 16, 2007, 08:06 AM
I would still like to have a navy to be counted on. And the topic here is Pisae, which lets us alternate between land and naval units, in case we need one of the two. Coppertown leaves no such choice.

ori
Jul 16, 2007, 08:13 AM
Where is the we don't want to build the HE now option? Or have we already decided to build it?

dutchfire
Jul 16, 2007, 08:14 AM
Where is the we don't want to build the HE now option? Or have we already decided to build it?

As far as I'm concerned, we haven't decided on building it yet, however we need to plan in advance where it'll come to avoid building other national wonders there for example.

Provolution
Jul 16, 2007, 08:16 AM
Ori, take it easy on the poll police. This is a "qualifying poll" that will probably end up in a repoll, since discussions on this have been messy at best. So please do not shoot it down as you habitually do.

Most likely, we will conquer three cities this turn, make peace with Germany for Compass and then we will poll the exact locations of Heroic Epic and National Epic.

ori
Jul 16, 2007, 08:18 AM
As far as I'm concerned, we haven't decided on building it yet, however we need to plan in advance where it'll come to avoid building other national wonders there for example.

I can live with that - but the OP reads


When we have researched literature, where should we build it?


which pretty much reads as if this decision is being made by voting for any of the options provided... Yeah call me tunnelsighted ;)

ori
Jul 16, 2007, 08:23 AM
Ori, take it easy on the poll police.

x-post :D As for poll-police: I won't act on my own initiative but there are some things I'll point out anyway. That is the reason I'll press for a polling initiative - but that is another discussion.
On Topic:
I am not sure we need the Heroic Epic at all - or rather right now. In the games I know in the middle of a war any hammers wasted spend on the HE would have been better spend on units - that is not to say one does not need it when preparing for war... So I'll abstain.

Provolution
Jul 16, 2007, 08:24 AM
We are now in a multiple war phase, if we need it, we need it now.

Methos
Jul 16, 2007, 08:32 AM
This is a "qualifying poll" that will probably end up in a repoll, since discussions on this have been messy at best.

So you yourself, as the poll creator, are saying this is not a binding poll? I would suggest you state that in the OP, as it sure doesn't state that anywhere.

I'm guessing because your leaving here shortly your trying to get as much of the discussions going that you gone. The problem is, most of the polls can be considered binding the way you worded them and that bothers me.

Provolution
Jul 16, 2007, 08:36 AM
So you yourself, as the poll creator, are saying this is not a binding poll? I would suggest you state that in the OP, as it sure doesn't state that anywhere.

I'm guessing because your leaving here shortly your trying to get as much of the discussions going that you gone. The problem is, most of the polls can be considered binding the way you worded them and that bothers me.

It is binding if more than 40 % vote for one option, as written in the poll.
However, this poll would allow us to plan builds ahead, which is badly needed.
Too many times Governors are forced to build a wonder last minute.

If for example Pisae wins, we build it after Forge, for example. It is binding, but I am aware that spread votes may cause a repoll.

fed1943
Jul 16, 2007, 09:23 AM
Voted Coppertown.

A good hammers city, must be our first (and sometimes only) military city,

just look at F1.

Fronts change, HE place remains.

I don't believe we shall build so high number of vessels to need coastal HE.

And HE in a commercial city...

Best regards,

Provolution
Jul 16, 2007, 09:36 AM
Fed, I know you already voted, but Coppertown does not have to be a military city, it is merely because some players decided it to be so, a while back.

Now the borders have changed, and in a game where each turn is 10 years, I figure 70 year of a one-way ticket is a bit slow. I think having the units in front is key here.

Coppertown has so many alternate uses.

DaveShack
Jul 16, 2007, 11:41 AM
I see us invading the other continent, for which we'll need a lot of ships. However, I'm delaying my vote for further comment.

ordinaryguy
Jul 17, 2007, 03:21 AM
I really can't make up my mind. Both the leading candidates are in my aimag.

Building it in Coppertown would be best for land units.

Building it in Pisae would improve our naval units (best if we're going for a domination/conquest victory).

Which is why I keep emphasizing in the victory condition discussion thread that we have to make a decision regarding the victory condition before we can really make a decision on issues such as this.

So, currently, I'm withholding my vote, waiting for more discussion.

Also keep in mind that Coppertown can grow to size 20 without Biology but Pisae can't, unless we knock down some mines and replace them with windmills.

Provolution
Jul 17, 2007, 03:29 AM
That is what I said, Coppertown has more uses than just being a military production center, it can be a real wonder metropolis. Pisae on the other hand, is a more classical military city, both land and naval base.

But you are right, we should shed some light on victory conditions. Yet, not selecting Pisae for HE, would sort of manipulate that discussion and contribute to eliminate domination as alternative, of which I am sure the Coppertown supporters are aware.

fed1943
Jul 17, 2007, 04:47 AM
No. In an overseas invasion, loss of ground troops are always superior to loss
of ships.
And some ground troops will go to garrison duty.
So, more ground troops needed than ships.
A good reason to HE more concerned to speed ground troops building than
navy one.
And I still see intruders on our continent.
Best regards,

ordinaryguy
Jul 18, 2007, 06:16 AM
I thought about it again, and felt that the extra 100% building speed for ships was not really needed. The AI seldom has many ships, and we only needs transports to move our troops around.

Plus land units are the ones that need to be built fast. And Coppertown has nothing to do but build units (Confucian temple is unneeded, Rheims takes over the duty of building missionaries). And it has the production.

So I shall vote for Coppertown.

Provolution
Jul 18, 2007, 07:37 AM
We should go ahead and build Heroic Epic, I think.

ordinaryguy
Jul 18, 2007, 07:52 AM
We don't have literature yet.

Provolution
Jul 18, 2007, 08:26 AM
I think we should vote for Literature, since I feel the military has been shortchanged, in all polls. We are given many war objectives, but little resources and techs.

Ravenouz
Jul 18, 2007, 07:41 PM
Pisae is my vote

Hyronymus
Jul 19, 2007, 01:23 AM
Which tech to research is another poll, ordinaryguy. Sooner or later we will get Literature though. The fact that we don't have it yet doesn't effect this poll too much in my opinion.

I voted Coppertown, it's been mass-producing units for eons anyhow.

ordinaryguy
Jul 19, 2007, 06:26 AM
Which tech to research is another poll, ordinaryguy. Sooner or later we will get Literature though. The fact that we don't have it yet doesn't effect this poll too much in my opinion.

I voted Coppertown, it's been mass-producing units for eons anyhow.

I agree. That was one of the main reason why I pushed for Coppertown to have HE.

Provolution
Jul 19, 2007, 07:30 AM
Well congratulations with the result, Coppertown is not the worst choice.
And we can congratulate ourself for getting it, as you can see on the Literature support.