View Full Version : Reality patch


wotan321
Jul 16, 2007, 11:50 AM
I don't know if we are even allowed to discuss this here... so moderators please remove this if it is inappropriate or not permitted.

I understand the ethical, economic and good taste reasons for not including certain leaders and flags in the BtS Mod. I salute the incredible effort made in creating this fantasic Scenario.

But is there an organized effort being made to create a patch that supplies the real players in the Mod?

Thanks.

Edungeon
Jul 16, 2007, 12:47 PM
Probably yes, since they were discussing a nazi flag here: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=230497 :)

I am hoping for a Hitler leaderhead now :P

wotan321
Jul 16, 2007, 01:26 PM
I am hoping for a Hitler leaderhead now :P

You probably know this already, but one already exists in the WW2:1939 Mod. Its cobbled from existing LHs.

Dale
Jul 16, 2007, 01:40 PM
"Cobbled from existing LH's" isn't good enough for RtW. I want a GOOD LH. :)

wotan321
Jul 16, 2007, 02:23 PM
... isn't good enough for RtW. I want a GOOD LH.

Your dedication to quality is an inspiration to us all.... keep up the good work.

kittenOFchaos
Jul 20, 2007, 09:23 AM
A reality patch, where to start...

1. Not all cities at size 4 to begin with in 1939 Europe would be a good start.
2. The hawker hurricane shouldn't have the artwork of a biplane.
3. As capital not linked by trade route to middle eastern oil, Britain has no oil until war declared.
4. French culture controlling Kent...
5. Dale have you ever seen your AI controlled Germany, defeat Poland fully within realistic times, touch Norway? I'd have thought your historic one would give Germany some units with each new event to allow them to perhaps happen. Especially in the case of the invasion of Norway which lets be fair the AI and human players alike would have vast difficulties with due to the distances involved.
6. Why have some cities that can do nothing but starve? Was the Rhine (strange city name) really starving?
7. The British Navy shouldn't have access to the Baltic - put in a minefield that cannot be crossed except by subs and Germany units. The Kiel Canal can also be represented using a fort.
8. The Russians don't invade half of Poland as they should as part of the Nazi-Soviet Pact.


I am quite disappointed. Time to try the Pacific scenario and then come back to this one and play as Germany, might be a better experience.

Edit: Tried the Pacific scenario...1937 AD. Yawn tbh.

Then back to Europe as Germany, much more fun, but the British navy is daft and all dies in the Baltic, the French military wanders off and I paradropped half of France even before war with Norway. But still, kept me amused for 3-4 hours so far...

Dale
Jul 20, 2007, 03:18 PM
Thanks for the comment kitten. :)

To answer....
1. If you could point me to a website with population data on all the cities in all the nations represented for the time period, then I can endeavor to do this.

2. Noted well before release. I've already stated new graphics will be included for the add-on for all UU's. This was a decision by Firaxis to limit the UU graphics.

3. Already posted previously.

5. Yes. In all the tests run (hundreds BTW) Germany defeated Poland quickly most of the time. Naval invasions of Norway were noted much less, but that's unfortunately a reflection of the AI. I specifically avoided giving the AI units via events (like occured in Desert War) to stop the unfairness against humans.

6. Noted.

7. This isn't reality. The UK navy had pretty much free access to the Baltic for the majority of the war.

8. This would force the USSR to be at war with UK and France as well. A small historical inaccuracy to avoid a massively huge mistake. Even you have to agree it would be stupid to put USSR at war with UK/France. :)

I don't understand your comment regarding the Pacific scenario. You only played to 1937? Not even till full war?

As for France, in truth their military did wander off (north into the Low Countries). This allowed Guderian to rush through the Ardennes and trap the BEF in Belgium.

Civinator
Jul 21, 2007, 06:06 AM
1. If you could point me to a website with population data on all the cities in all the nations represented for the time period, then I can endeavor to do this.

For our Civ3-WW2 mod "SOE" this was one site I did use:
http://www.populstat.info/

In the column "Important towns" it has tons of info about population data of huge numbers of towns around the world even for the periode of WW 2.

ecv
Jul 21, 2007, 06:35 AM
I dont have bts yet, but if there is one thing i would really like, its a good ww2 scenario. Here are some comments.

Actual city sizes is imo not so importent. What imo is of crucial importence though is that the countries industrial capacity is as close to reality as possible. I dont have any figures at hand, but im sure its possible to find some on the net. If not, i can try and help with it.
At the same time, its also highly importent imo, that cities aquired through conquest doesnt contribute very with military production. Fx. half the German military in 41 should NOT come from a newly conquered France and Poland. They should contribute abit, but definently not very much.
Here's an idea, maybe production of military units should be multiplied by the population percentage of the current owner of the city. Fx. if Germany owns Danzig and wants to produce a military unit in it. Lets say Danzig produces 50 hammers and 20% of the population is German, then Germany will only get 10 hammers for military units (50*20/100).
This could ofcourse be developed further by fx always giving atleast 10% or something like that.
It is though also importent to not have cities starving or growing rapidly in a scenario like this. That definently gives the feeling that the scenario is not very well done.

Afaik Britain didnt have access to the Baltic sea after Germany got control over the danish straits. There were huge guns placed at the straits, and mines laid out in the narrow waters.

Civinator
Jul 21, 2007, 07:05 AM
At the same time, its also highly importent imo, that cities aquired through conquest doesnt contribute very with military production. Fx. half the German military in 41 should NOT come from a newly conquered France and Poland. They should contribute abit, but definently not very much.

Yes that is true. In our Civ 3 mod SOE we solved that by adjusting special production levels for each civ in each region of the map. I named that "microzones".

And itīs unbelievable, that FIRAXIS cripples the scenarios delivered with BTS by cutting out all important unique units of these scenarios which give these scenarios their special flavour. This is really no good service for the customers. :eek: One WW2 scenario in Civ 4 vanilla with this complete wrong attitude should have been enough.

Dale
Jul 21, 2007, 07:43 AM
Yes that is true. In our Civ 3 mod SOE we solved that by adjusting special production levels for each civ in each region of the map. I named that "microzones".

And it´s unbelievable, that FIRAXIS cripples the scenarios delivered with BTS by cutting out all important unique units of these scenarios which give these scenarios their special flavour. This is really no good service for the customers. :eek: One WW2 scenario in Civ 4 vanilla with this complete wrong attitude should have been enough.

No unique units got axed, only the graphics for them. There's 146 units in RtW, 96 of them unique units. RtW is in no way light on UU's. ;)

As for the economy, RtW manages the economy through the use of factories and resources (a new concept to manage what can be built, where, and for how much). You must have specific resources AND buildings to build different units. For instance, to build tanks you must have iron and a vehicle factory. And to build a factory you need power. A barracks gives experience bonuses.

During conquest of a city it is decimated of buildings, so newly acquired cities will take a while to get back to any decent level of unit building speed.

Also, there is a new air mission which specifically targets factories. Your military production can be crippled by successful enemy bombing of your factories. Anti-air units are cheap air defense units for cities to defend against incoming bombers.

Through the use of civics non-fascist industry is regulated. As you research industrial techs new industrial civics open up to you. These civics give increasing bonuses to production and military buildup. This accurately simulates the Allies industrial change from a domestic to war footing. Fascists start with a really good industry as they were already producing on a war footing.

I feel this is a very deep and accurate method to depict the change of industry. It's certainly deeper and more accurate in complexity than any other WW2 mod I've played for any civ version. :)

Ultimately, RtW is simply a race. The fascists have to race to destroy the allies industry before they can ramp up to out-produce the fascists. That was the key in the 40's, and it's the key in this game. :)

ecv
Jul 21, 2007, 07:58 AM
Ok. This sounds good. Thank you for the explanation, im looking forward to try it.

Civinator
Jul 21, 2007, 08:30 AM
The axeout of the unit graphics is a very bad decision by FIRAXIS. I mean, if you know about the outlook of a Hurrican and than you get a biplane (as described above) this is more than dreary for the flavour of that scenario. May be I should wait to pay BTS until I can play the scenarios that are included as they were designed by their creators and not as they were crippled by FIRAXIS.

The concept of production in RtW sounds interesting. We had to do the same
for our Civ 3 WW2 mod only with the access to resources and unit producing buildings. Heavy industry, power-plants, harbours, V-sites, sub-pens and so on are all resources in that civ 3 mod. You canīt have played this mod yet as we have it in work for more than two years now and it is not ready yet. There were alone more than 1.000 new units created for this mod. The last open question in designing was closed last week with the solution of deepwater harbours for better convoys and targeted amphibious operations in the Civ 3forums. If you want to have a look in our public forums I sent you a message with a link to our site.

Concerning RtW, please publish at least the unit pack with the unit graphics that were cut out by FIRAXIS as quick as possible and donīt wait for lots of reported bugs. Fix these bugs later. A lot of people could miss the flavour that you gave to this mod when they only have the graphically crippled version. Do you know the feeling when you are in a cinema looking on a WW2 film and when you see some tanks that are named "Tiger-tanks", and the man in the next seat says, these are American tanks from 1958?

ecv
Jul 21, 2007, 09:31 AM
Hey, i would like to see that site as well. Could you post a link here?

Civinator
Jul 21, 2007, 09:39 AM
Hey, i would like to see that site as well. Could you post a link here?

No, I donīt do that. This is a thread for RtW and in that thread all is be done by me that RtW has a better success than the WW2 mod in Civ IV vanilla. But it seems FIRAXIS always repeats the same big mistakes. I send you a message.

vidimce
Jul 21, 2007, 09:51 AM
I agree with ecv on the production levels. I found the GDP (which is the measure of total goods produced in a year or something along those lines) of the major powers in ww2.

Production, GDP (gross domestic product)
Year 1939

Austria 27
France 199
Germany 384
Italy 151
Japan 184
Soviet Union 366
UK 287
USA 869
Allied Total: 1600
Axis Total: 746
Allied/Axis GDP: 2.15

relatively accurate information - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Militar...g_World_War_II

GarretSidzaka
Jul 21, 2007, 10:39 PM
don't worry. i was able to salvage some lost unit data for infantry. and most of the vehicles we need are here, at CFC

Civinator
Jul 22, 2007, 01:07 AM
Salvage lost unit data - was the graphically crippling of the scenario this time an accident ? :confused:

Dale
Jul 22, 2007, 01:36 AM
No of course it wasn't. I'd show you the email from Firaxis to settle this argument if I could.

Civinator
Jul 22, 2007, 05:41 AM
I don´t understand what´s going on with FIRAXIS at present. Sid Meier announces his Civ Revolution in a way and with a timing, that can be interpreted as action against BTS and than they cripple this central scenario of that expansion set in such a way.

Edited: On this post I don´t expect a reply.

[EC]Eternal
Jul 22, 2007, 10:07 PM
hey really enjoying the mod playing germany in 1939 i think anyway very fun like the historical side needs work but what doesant a good start and i can wait for the patches anyway few things.

1. i was playing japan in the pacfic war one and the infantry graphics are broken when u fortify they return to orginal ones only graphics ive seen mess up, also why are they so weak 7 strength i mean i didnt think the japanese where so bad quite the opposite.

2. make it muiltplayer!!!

3. i wouldnt mind seeing the ai build more of its own infantry they all have there own types but they dont build them they just build marines which is pointless to be honest so if the ai could someone bet set to prefer to build its own type of infantry that would be great.

thanks

PinkPallin
Jul 23, 2007, 02:46 PM
Concerning RtW, please publish at least the unit pack with the unit graphics that were cut out by FIRAXIS as quick as possible and donīt wait for lots of reported bugs. Fix these bugs later. A lot of people could miss the flavour that you gave to this mod when they only have the graphically crippled version. Do you know the feeling when you are in a cinema looking on a WW2 film and when you see some tanks that are named "Tiger-tanks", and the man in the next seat says, these are American tanks from 1958?

I totally agree.
To me, having a Spitfire that looks like a reconnaissance plane, or a Maus (!) as the default heavy tank for every nation, is just silly. And it ruins the game.
So, please, please, release as soon as possible a graphic pack that fixes this disaster - maybe with normal icons instead of the NATO awful rectangles.

Fanaza
Jul 23, 2007, 05:09 PM
Actually I dealt with the problem 2nd game by giving the cities to Russia. Cool!

wilcoxchar
Jul 23, 2007, 11:30 PM
One question to people who have the game. Is the Spanish Civil War portrayed in any way?

vidimce
Jul 24, 2007, 03:10 AM
One question to people who have the game. Is the Spanish Civil War portrayed in any way?

I don't think so. How would you have it portrayed anyway ?

GarretSidzaka
Jul 26, 2007, 03:04 PM
you know, dale has expressed interest in the that war, and maybe a scenario.

otherwise i know that Fabrysse made a scenario mod called "Spain:1936"

Quetz
Jul 26, 2007, 09:03 PM
if the graphics bother you that much, just do as I am and just play the other mods/scenarios in BtS until the patch comes out, to avoid disillusionment.

It sucks, but hey, it will be sweet when it comes.

Edit: Just wanted to say thanks to Dale and co. for continuing to support/add to this mod after the release. Really appreciated :)

Samael
Jul 31, 2007, 12:10 PM
Whilst we're talking about reality issues, I don't suppose there's any chance that 'English' infantry could be called British or Commonwealth, is there? Seems kind of silly to me that units from all over the UK and from Canada would be called 'English'...

holy king
Aug 06, 2007, 07:08 AM
i just tired this mod for the first time (bts) as france and currently the germans are suiciding the whole wehrmacht at the maginot line, seems theres no way they could endanger a human controlled france... cant they be taught to attack through belgium?