The arms trade is pretty large in the real world, and that is the reason why backward nations aren't running around with longbows -- building gunpowder troops based off imported guns is just as good.

So this is an attempt to emulate this in Civ4. Civilizations with Gunpowder can build Small Arms Industries. These grant a bonus to the production of Gunpowder weapons in the city, and each also produces a trade goods based off of the gun making technology of the civilization in question.

And a civilization with the trade guns can build weak gunpowder units without having gunpowder.

Small Arms Industry [City Improvement]
Requires Gunpowder and Corperation.
+25% production of Gunpowder units in city.
Produces Trade Muskets with Gunpowder.
Produces Trade Rifles with Rifling
Produces Trade Repeaters with Assembly Line
Produces Trade Assault Rifles with Industrialism

Trade Guns

Trade Muskets:
Can build Musket Irregulars (6 strength, gunpowder unit, upgrades from Archers, upgrades to Longbowmen, upgrades to Crossbowmen, upgrades to Rifle Irregulars, same price as Musketmen).

Trade Rifles:
Can build Rifle Irregulars (9 strength, gunpowder unit, upgrades to Musketmen, upgrades to Repeater Irregulars, upgrades from Longbowmen, upgrades from Crossbowmen, same price as Riflemen)

Trade Repeatering Rifles:
Can build Repeater Irregulars (14 strength, gunpowder units, upgrades to Riflemen, upgrades to Assault Irregulars, upgrades from Mace/Pike/Longbow/Crossbow/Musket, same price as Infantry)

Trade Assault Rifles:
Can build Assault Irregulars (17 strength, gunpowder unit, upgrades from Riflemen, upgrades to Infantry, same price as Marines)

There are a number of problems with implementing this.

First, teaching the AI that the above strategic resources have limited worth. Making them go obsolete doesn't quite work for a number of reasons. I almost need a "not worth buying, but worth selling, if you have tech X or resource Y" flags in the XML.

I don't know if the power of the above units might be too high: modern industrialized nations can put out forces that manage a 10:1 kill ratio against irregular troops.

I'm almost tempted to make them weaker and cheaper -- slightly more powerful than middle ages units, and possibly the same price as middle ages units.

Thoughts?

I suggest you split it into a different city improvement for each resource type. Then when the newer technology is available, the new city improvement can be made to replace the old improvement when it is built.

ive' always thought this should be fundamental part of any type of military build up ,ancient age ,industrial whatever ,all units should require a certain resource.
In earlier ages when different metals might build stronger weapons then you could build the same type of unit but with different streanghts depending on the weapon used to build it .you should be able to build small arms forges ,these would produce weapons depending on the type of mineral resources you have available.
For instance without resources the weapons forge would produce stone weapons resource, with copper it would produce bronze weapons ,iron the same.These resources would be required to build units ,iron ax man would have more streangth than a bronze axman .the same could be applied to archers except giving less build time on the units.
The same should be done for tanks ,aircraft ,naval weapons ,etc.
there should be some type of factory for every weapon produce aside from the simplist weapons ,such as one that a warrior might use.In this way cities would have stratigic importance aside from where its located and what resources that it culturaly encompasses.
As far as the AI are there any tags for city governor that would get the AI to build these improvements

Note I'm not proposing that we make Trade Muskets required for Musketmen -- rather, I'm proposing that you can sell Muskets/Rifles/Repeaters/Assault rifles to a lower tech civilization, and they can produce gimped gunpoweder units from that trade good without the technology.

Practically, this means a backward civilization by the modern era would be using Repeating Irregulars or Assault Irregulars instead of Macemen. You could also equip a vassal state with these guns.

I suggest you split it into a different city improvement for each resource type. Then when the newer technology is available, the new city improvement can be made to replace the old improvement when it is built.

Improvements can obsolete other improvements?

Well, I guess even if they can't, it can't be harder than teaching the AI about them Resources/Technologies obsoleteing strategic resources. ;)

I completly agree ,that you should be able to trade weapons ,but you might as well kill 2 birds with one stone, actualy by building improvements that produce weapons required to build units you create a weapons industry ,that trades weapons and can be used to build offensive armyies.
There is another thinking here, pikeman are not pikeman because of the weaponry but rather because of tactics.The same could be said of infintry ,just because they have the weaponry dosnt mean that have the training of a regular infintry unit.
I could certainly see a parisian unit that uses any weaponry given to them and streangth being variable depending on what weaponry they were outfitted with.

There is another thinking here, pikeman are not pikeman because of the weaponry but rather because of tactics.The same could be said of infintry ,just because they have the weaponry dosnt mean that have the training of a regular infintry unit.
I could certainly see a parisian unit that uses any weaponry given to them and streangth being variable depending on what weaponry they were outfitted with.

Actually pikemen were pikemen because of there pikes. :P The Pike directly made the formations they used (and training) practical as you couldn't very well use most pike tactics with a sword.

Same with muskets, the line training they were given was directly resultant of in the inaccuracy of the weapon.

On muskets: I think that in this setup muskets would best come with Replaceable Parts, that was when they became a war changing weapon. They could be mass produced and therefore mass deployed which was proven as the bast way to use them.

Personally I think Musketmen can come with Gunpowder, Musket Infantry at Replaceable parts, and Riflemen with Rifling and some tech later on that would be close to what made them viable as the main weapon of the infantry (opposed to the musket which stayed around a long time after the rifle was invented as rifles were just too expensive top mass produce.) Maybe Corporation or something?

Anyways...

I don't want improvements that build weapons that are required to build units.

The benefit would be small, and the complexity would be great.

The goal here is relatively narrow -- provide a means for "backwards" civilizations to get ahold of AK-47s, instead of beating each other on the heads with maces. This will make the modern era seem less silly -- you won't have tanks vs spear men, instead you'll have tanks vs rabble armed with cheap knock-off rifles.

So, rethinking:
Musket Irregulars: 6 strength, same cost as longbowmen, upgrades from archers and to longbowmen.

Rifle Irregulars: 9 strength, upgrades from axemen/longbowmen/swordsmen/crossbow, upgrades to Repeater Irregulars or Riflemen. Same cost as Musketmen.

Repeater Irregulars: 12 strength, upgrades from mace/pike/Rifle Irregulars. Upgrades to Riflemen. Same cost as Grenadiers.

Assault Irregulars: 15 strength +25% vs Mounted, upgrades from Riflemen/Grenaders. Upgrades to Infantry. Same cost as Riflemen.

The "gotchas" still exist.

Thinking about it again, I should make the old trade good obsolete with the newer technology. That means that each Small Arms Industry can produce at most 1 thing to export.

I still need the idea of "this resource and/or technology makes this other resource worthless" to communicate the value of these strategic resources to the AI...

What about a national wonder for each trade good set up so that the wonder goes obsolete when the next one in line becomes an option. The trade good in question would allow building of a unit that would go obsolete when the trade good to build it and thus the full vertion of that unit becomes an option.

If i am not mistaken you can set a national wonder so that it disolves when it goes obsolete, iv seen it used but i dont know enough about modding to say how its done.

You could set up each national wonder so that it supplyed 7 or whatever number of trade goods kinda like the 3 modern wonders.

Actually pikemen were pikemen because of there pikes. :P The Pike directly made the formations they used (and training) practical as you couldn't very well use most pike tactics with a sword.
True but you couldnt excatly give a warrior a pike and have that warrior stop heavy horse with out knoledge of the tactic.

I don't want improvements that build weapons that are required to build units.

The benefit would be small, and the complexity would be great.


I disagree ,this would ultimatly give you the ability to build any unit despite not having the resource nescesary for it.
To give you an example ,once you have bronze working you can build axman provided you have the copper resource ,however if you dont your screwed.My thinking is that bronze working shouldnt give you ax man but you should be able to build bronze weapons .these weapon factories should be able to automaticly upgrade any units you have out there with the simple tactics of attack and make them a little stronger, this would be the same as an upgrade of warrior to axman.The tactics havnt changed ,but the weaponry has.these units are still unorginized melee units.Hopilites on the other hand are different units in that they are orginized ,but its not to say that hopilites couldnt have been using those tactics with just sticks and wooden shields.
Weapons and tactics are 2 different things and i think they should be represented

sorry didnt mean to post yet..

anyway,I could easily see hopilites with wooden shields with staffs with obsidian tips in formation as an effective unit,upgrade them with bronze weapons and they are a little stronger.

some of the units represented in the game are the same type of unit they just upgraded the weaponry ,musketman to rifleman..
the tactics were the same they just upgraded the weapons.

the techs that go along with this would be alot more interesting as you could have 2 seperate lines one for tactics and the other for weapons.

This can be handled largely through XML and DDS/NIF files. No SDK work is necessary, really, unless you want to obsolete previous weapons factories. A more elegant solution would be to make all irregular units use the same resource (ie. a 'small arms' resource for all irregular gunpowder units), but require a specific tech to build the newer unit types. Of course, you'd have to develop and sell or trade that technology (or not -- that's several dead end techs).

Maybe you will need some SDK work, unless you don't care if you've got buildings generating obsolete resources...

This could also apply to more things than standard infantry. You could also include aircraft and armored fighting vehicles. Warships may be a bit much, though.

Still thinking on this guy. One question does come to mind. How would one balance the AI in such a way where a more advanced nation would want to trade the "arms" resources while less advanced nations would covet them?

Off the top of my head, and I haven't got BTS to try this yet, could this work with a corporation? Let's say you can, with the right prerequisites, build the HQ of a firearms corporation. All you then need to do is send out a few corporation-spreading-people to make the trade.

Every branch of the firearms corporation could then produce a resource in the city it was in; perhaps keep it simple and have a single 'small arms' resource as doronron suggests. The branch would cost the city it was in and a give money to the HQ, representing the buying/selling of arms (would the corporation need to consume anything else?). The AI knows how to use corporations (I hope!) so that should be ok. This small arms resource could then allow the new irregular units together with other restrictions.

I'd be tempted to go for something like this:

Feudalism allows longbows, but Feudalism + small arms from corporation could allow musket irregulars. I'd then make musket irregulars the same as longbowmen except they are gunpowder units (not archery), have some more modern art with perhaps a small bonus to make it worth the upgrade cost. If they are the same base cost of longbowmen, then upgrading them is very cheap so worth doing.

The plus side of making them gunpowder units is that the old promotions vs archery units and/or abilities of older units don't work on them any more. The minus side, is that the more modern armies have the pinch promotion or bonuses vs gunpowder units making them even better against the irregular units than they would have been against the older units. Perhaps there's a compromise there - maybe giving the irregulars their own bonus against gunpowder units? I'd make any bonus inherent to the unit, like macemen's bonus vs melee, rather than a promotion, then the bonus can't carry on when/if the unit finally gets upgraded to the mainstream, regular, units.

Another downside of this approach is that the city screen for units becomes filled up as you could be able to build both longbowmen and their equivalent irregular upgrade and so on for their other units. That might not be a bad trade-off if it gives you better units. It would also increase the apparent value of the Feudalism tech to the AI which may not be a good thing.

Off the top of my head, and I haven't got BTS to try this yet, could this work with a corporation?

In a word, yes.

However, in the scenario you present, the kinds of units the purchasing nation produces is still dependant on their own technology rather than the seller's. What makes the arms trade an interesting thing in my opinion is the fact that you could arm (and train) much less technologically advanced nations with this. Small arms would become the great equalizer.

The more I think about it, the more I think having two or three types of "arms" resources dependant on the seller's technology level is a better idea. I just wish there was a way to make it so all those resources came from the same building, but not all at the same time.

In a word, yes.

However, in the scenario you present, the kinds of units the purchasing nation produces is still dependant on their own technology rather than the seller's. What makes the arms trade an interesting thing in my opinion is the fact that you could arm (and train) much less technologically advanced nations with this. Small arms would become the great equalizer.

The more I think about it, the more I think having two or three types of "arms" resources dependant on the seller's technology level is a better idea. I just wish there was a way to make it so all those resources came from the same building, but not all at the same time.

We might want something more abstract than "trade muskets".

How about:
Simple Tradegoods
Intermediate Tradegoods
Advanced Tradegoods

By abstracting it like that, the Simple Tradegoods could be useful even after you have Intermediate tradegoods.

What else, other than military units, might be buildable just from higher tech equipment? Railroads possibly?

If you start playing around with Corps, you can go in a number of directions. Consumer electronics, food stuffs, fast food, steel (huge one), automobiles, etc. Not sure if you want to do weapons in this way, though. What happens if you want to stop selling weapons to a neighbor? I don't think you can shut down a franchise...