snafusmith
Jul 21, 2007, 01:12 AM
Not A Step Back!
http://www.aish.com/holocaust/overview/graphics/he05n18a.jpg
Ok, so BtS is for all purposes out now - with it come all the things I wished had come with Vanilla/Warlords. Those failings are largely the reasons I started working on Modern Warfare (other than to find a good home for the ton of units I'd made). That said, I need a new project-
I think I've found one! Luckilly it includes enough graphics work to keep me busy until doomsday. I have every intention of creating the Battle of Stalingrad in BtS - but not in a way normally associated with Civ4. Here's some background on the battle for those that don't know. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Stalingrad)
The plan as of now is to take a large map (the size isn't set now - but no smaller than a standard size map) and recreate all of the city of Stalingrad and the surrounding areas. The game as a whole would look, feel, and play something more akin to a RTS than Civ4. However, I think it can (and will) be done. Here's how:
1. First, gather enough information to accurately determine the scale of the map, including the city, outlying towns, and area.
-This part shouldn't be to difficult, not easy but doable. In fact, I've already started work on it. There are a couple of factors that come in to play, starting with the most important, they go something like this:
-Game Speed: BtS is supposed to run smoother and faster than both Vanilla and Warlords, and I'd like to keep it that way. The larger the map, the more units, the more graphics, well- the more everything! Finding the balance between graphics and playability is always tough.
-Game Play: Changing the scale of everything means everything changes - duh! In Civ4 (any version) units occupy what must amount to hundreds of square miles/kilometers. To accurately protray the battle, streets and buildings would be represented by tiles. On that level, how do tanks, infantry, ships and aircraft interact? Right now I have some ideas (like units being able to directly attack others from farther than 1 tile away - more on that later), but it's probably going to take more than just me to figure that out.
-Historical Accuracy: Those of you who have gotten to know me during my time here know I'm a stickler for accuracy. This project would be no less true to life. Making an accurate map shouldn't be too difficult - but it requires a lot of research.
2. Create the terrain of the city
-It might seem like this was covered when the map was made. Nope! Making the map only sets the scale of the game, not what it looks like. I've desyphered the terrain mechanics, and can implement this pretty easy. There's a lot to this one - nearly ever asset of the terrain would change - new buildings, trees, roads, railroads, you name it. Not a problem though, I've started work on them already, and they should go quick once the scale is settled.
3. Graphics:
-Unlike many mods out there, graphics won't be a problem here. I've already made units that would fit the mod, and creating more wouldn't be hard. Creating all of the terrain/features/improvements/buildings should be a snap too. So we're good here.
4. How the heck is this thing going to play out?:
-Next to setting the stage for the game, this is going to be the hardest part. Finding out how to run a turn based game to represent a fluid battle is going to be tough.
-Do the turns represent hours, days, weeks? I'm sticking with 1 turn = 1 day right now, but it might work with 1 turn = 1/2 day (1 turn night, 1 day).
-How do units, now that they're only a mile or less from eachother, fight? Right now, units must be next to eachother to attack, here that wouldn't work. At this scale, tanks would (and should) be able to engage targets far away. The best solution I can think of would be to allow units to attack eachother from more than 1 square away - how far would depend on what the unit is and it's ability.
To better visualize this - look at it this way: In Civ4, units are drastically scaled up so you can see them. Here, they'll be the same size as they were, but everything else will be scaled UP to the units size.
-Zone of Control (ZOC) is another solution. Units that are within a set distance would get a strike, or even attack if another enters this zone. Think Civ3 here. Still working on this one, but it combined with a ranged attack would work well.
-If there's no cities, how are things produced? Just like they where in 1942/43, somewhere else! Other than certain locations on the map (like the famous tractor factory), no units will actually be created on the map, and production, culture, all those things mean nothing. Each army will be supplied through it's respective transportation network. Railyards, supply depots, and airports will gain units at the beginning of each turn, depending on what's available. "But I like to choose what I produce!," you say - Ok, I'll buy that. In order to get what you want, you'll have to request reinforcements at the end of your turn. If what you want is available (determined by what resources where available during that time of the battle, how you're progressing, etc), you'll likely get it - if not you'll have to make due.
-Wait, no culture, what's left from normal Civ4? Not Much! No civics, no culture (at least in the sense you know it), no religions, no technology, nothing. Just units, terrain, and a whole lot of destruction and strategy.
-Time Ok, so a turn roughly equals a day. What about everything else? The battle started in August and ended in February. Winter was a major factor, and will be here. Expect to see the seasons change, storms roll in, everything. This'll probably be one of the hardest parts of the scenario to include. I'm hoping the events portion of BtS will help out some, but if not I'll have to look to other sources. People have already experimented with adding weather to the game, so things aren't as bleak as they could be. Don't get me wrong, this'll be tough - but doable.
-Units I've set myself high on this one - if it was used in the battle, I want it available to the players. Not a hard thing to accomplish, but it will take time. There are enough out there now to start things moving, which helps. I've also decided each unit will represent roughly a Company (70-200 men), making it easy to group the different types of units to represent all of the divisions, groups, armies in the battle.
-Code Much of the code needed for the game is already available. All of the little features needed have been created or started by one person or mod team already. The only things not available at the moment would be the ranged attack, supply mechanisms, and some other soon-to-be mentioned requirements.
Putting all of the code together so it works is going to be a MAJOR problem. This is where I'm really looking to the community to help out - I have no way to compile SDK code on my computer, and have a limited knowledge of python/C to begin with. This is going to be tricky.
-AI Probably the scariest part of starting this project, is the fear that it'll never be playable in single player. This is going to be the hardest part of the game by a long shot. With so much changing in the game, it's a reality that the AI won't know what's going on. I can only pray that some one, or group of someones, know enough to help out here.
So that's pretty much it in a nutshell: Replicate the most destructive battle in the history of mankind in Civ4. Should be easy, right? For the most part, no! But it will be FUN, which is the point.
Here's what's needed from the community, and I hope I can find a few brave souls to help out:
Code: SDK/Python work
Ideas: The more ideas, the better!
Information: The historical nature of this scenario begs hours of research.
Graphics: Not really needed, but any help would be appreciated.
http://www.aish.com/holocaust/overview/graphics/he05n18a.jpg
Ok, so BtS is for all purposes out now - with it come all the things I wished had come with Vanilla/Warlords. Those failings are largely the reasons I started working on Modern Warfare (other than to find a good home for the ton of units I'd made). That said, I need a new project-
I think I've found one! Luckilly it includes enough graphics work to keep me busy until doomsday. I have every intention of creating the Battle of Stalingrad in BtS - but not in a way normally associated with Civ4. Here's some background on the battle for those that don't know. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Stalingrad)
The plan as of now is to take a large map (the size isn't set now - but no smaller than a standard size map) and recreate all of the city of Stalingrad and the surrounding areas. The game as a whole would look, feel, and play something more akin to a RTS than Civ4. However, I think it can (and will) be done. Here's how:
1. First, gather enough information to accurately determine the scale of the map, including the city, outlying towns, and area.
-This part shouldn't be to difficult, not easy but doable. In fact, I've already started work on it. There are a couple of factors that come in to play, starting with the most important, they go something like this:
-Game Speed: BtS is supposed to run smoother and faster than both Vanilla and Warlords, and I'd like to keep it that way. The larger the map, the more units, the more graphics, well- the more everything! Finding the balance between graphics and playability is always tough.
-Game Play: Changing the scale of everything means everything changes - duh! In Civ4 (any version) units occupy what must amount to hundreds of square miles/kilometers. To accurately protray the battle, streets and buildings would be represented by tiles. On that level, how do tanks, infantry, ships and aircraft interact? Right now I have some ideas (like units being able to directly attack others from farther than 1 tile away - more on that later), but it's probably going to take more than just me to figure that out.
-Historical Accuracy: Those of you who have gotten to know me during my time here know I'm a stickler for accuracy. This project would be no less true to life. Making an accurate map shouldn't be too difficult - but it requires a lot of research.
2. Create the terrain of the city
-It might seem like this was covered when the map was made. Nope! Making the map only sets the scale of the game, not what it looks like. I've desyphered the terrain mechanics, and can implement this pretty easy. There's a lot to this one - nearly ever asset of the terrain would change - new buildings, trees, roads, railroads, you name it. Not a problem though, I've started work on them already, and they should go quick once the scale is settled.
3. Graphics:
-Unlike many mods out there, graphics won't be a problem here. I've already made units that would fit the mod, and creating more wouldn't be hard. Creating all of the terrain/features/improvements/buildings should be a snap too. So we're good here.
4. How the heck is this thing going to play out?:
-Next to setting the stage for the game, this is going to be the hardest part. Finding out how to run a turn based game to represent a fluid battle is going to be tough.
-Do the turns represent hours, days, weeks? I'm sticking with 1 turn = 1 day right now, but it might work with 1 turn = 1/2 day (1 turn night, 1 day).
-How do units, now that they're only a mile or less from eachother, fight? Right now, units must be next to eachother to attack, here that wouldn't work. At this scale, tanks would (and should) be able to engage targets far away. The best solution I can think of would be to allow units to attack eachother from more than 1 square away - how far would depend on what the unit is and it's ability.
To better visualize this - look at it this way: In Civ4, units are drastically scaled up so you can see them. Here, they'll be the same size as they were, but everything else will be scaled UP to the units size.
-Zone of Control (ZOC) is another solution. Units that are within a set distance would get a strike, or even attack if another enters this zone. Think Civ3 here. Still working on this one, but it combined with a ranged attack would work well.
-If there's no cities, how are things produced? Just like they where in 1942/43, somewhere else! Other than certain locations on the map (like the famous tractor factory), no units will actually be created on the map, and production, culture, all those things mean nothing. Each army will be supplied through it's respective transportation network. Railyards, supply depots, and airports will gain units at the beginning of each turn, depending on what's available. "But I like to choose what I produce!," you say - Ok, I'll buy that. In order to get what you want, you'll have to request reinforcements at the end of your turn. If what you want is available (determined by what resources where available during that time of the battle, how you're progressing, etc), you'll likely get it - if not you'll have to make due.
-Wait, no culture, what's left from normal Civ4? Not Much! No civics, no culture (at least in the sense you know it), no religions, no technology, nothing. Just units, terrain, and a whole lot of destruction and strategy.
-Time Ok, so a turn roughly equals a day. What about everything else? The battle started in August and ended in February. Winter was a major factor, and will be here. Expect to see the seasons change, storms roll in, everything. This'll probably be one of the hardest parts of the scenario to include. I'm hoping the events portion of BtS will help out some, but if not I'll have to look to other sources. People have already experimented with adding weather to the game, so things aren't as bleak as they could be. Don't get me wrong, this'll be tough - but doable.
-Units I've set myself high on this one - if it was used in the battle, I want it available to the players. Not a hard thing to accomplish, but it will take time. There are enough out there now to start things moving, which helps. I've also decided each unit will represent roughly a Company (70-200 men), making it easy to group the different types of units to represent all of the divisions, groups, armies in the battle.
-Code Much of the code needed for the game is already available. All of the little features needed have been created or started by one person or mod team already. The only things not available at the moment would be the ranged attack, supply mechanisms, and some other soon-to-be mentioned requirements.
Putting all of the code together so it works is going to be a MAJOR problem. This is where I'm really looking to the community to help out - I have no way to compile SDK code on my computer, and have a limited knowledge of python/C to begin with. This is going to be tricky.
-AI Probably the scariest part of starting this project, is the fear that it'll never be playable in single player. This is going to be the hardest part of the game by a long shot. With so much changing in the game, it's a reality that the AI won't know what's going on. I can only pray that some one, or group of someones, know enough to help out here.
So that's pretty much it in a nutshell: Replicate the most destructive battle in the history of mankind in Civ4. Should be easy, right? For the most part, no! But it will be FUN, which is the point.
Here's what's needed from the community, and I hope I can find a few brave souls to help out:
Code: SDK/Python work
Ideas: The more ideas, the better!
Information: The historical nature of this scenario begs hours of research.
Graphics: Not really needed, but any help would be appreciated.