Actually he is the only who is willing to make peace for free. :p

PS... did I ever mention I hate Alex? :mischief: Backstabbing Alex = happy Hawk.

Equally his is the only land our barb allies have failed to map in any significant detail. :rolleyes: This doesn't mean we shouldn't make peace with him to indulge The-Hawk's pleasure in backstabbing him. However perhaps it should make us wonder why he's so keen for peace. :hmm:

Maybe we should prioritise galleys a bit more to scout his land?

I strongly suspect that it's the lush island crowd that's generating most, if not all, of our WW. If so then they should be our priority for peace. It'll keep mark happy when we backstab Izzy if nobody else. :lol:

Btw I think that's my 1000'th post. :) Better late than never. :D

I think maybe I only played 19, sort of lost count. Anyhow:

Turn 0 (850 BC)


Settle Old Sarai, start obelisk. This creates a net -5 commerce, drop research to 60%.
Switch capital from Axe to Barracks. I think since we get 1/2 price barracks we should build them in all cities that will be producing land forces.
Notice that Alex still only has one city. I suspect he is on a tiny island to himself, and the bit of land we see to the SE is a separate island.
Make peace with Alex, no change to WW :( .


Turn 3 (805 BC)


Oracle built somewhere, send worker at Karakorum to the SE to help down there. Not much more to do in the capital since WW is getting so bad.


Turn 4 (790 BC)


Barbs have come very close to capturing Edo... but continue their stupid play (a steady stream of single units). That archer in Edo will prolly end up at level 20.


Turn 5 (775 BC)


Sailing finished. I almost took a break here to talk to the team about the possibility of IW next. A couple of cities really could use some jungle clearing. We need to get those jungle hills mined so we can start producing in earnest. However, after a long internal debate, I decide to stick with the original plan. WW will keep those cities from growing. In most cases, there are tiles to work (e.g. grassland forests) for the time being. So: Sailing -> Math


Turn 6 (760 BC)


Beshbalik obelisk -> galley


Turn 7 (745 BC)


Turfan: workboat -> galley
Barb city of Kushans is in jeopardy. Two Cyrus and two Asoka units attacking three archers. Try to make peace, neither will.


Turn 8 (730 BC)


Kushans survives for now (one wounded archer left)
Karakorum: Barracks -> Axe


Turn 9 (715 BC)


Kushans falls to Cyrus. War weariness jumps.
Ning-Hsai: Axe -> Archer. I want to create some archers to sit in cities and prevent "no protection" sad faces. I gave this axe medic 1, I assume most following troops should have city raider.
Karakorum is now -4 and has two unhappy citizens. Whip Axeman to get rid of one of those malcontents.
Drop research to 50%.


Turn 10 (700 BC)


Karakorum Axe -> Archer.


Turn 13 (655 BC)


Ning-hsai now unhappy. Whip archer.
Back to 60% research.


Turn 14 (640 BC)


Karakorum: Archer -> Axe. Move archer toward SE towns.
Ning-hsai: Archer -> Axe. Fortify archer here, start to move the medic axeman to SE.
Turfan expands, work fish.


Turn 15 (625 BC)


Alex founds his second city to our SE.


Turn 17 (595 BC)


Finish a mine near Old Sarai so that it can build obelisk quicker after pop increase.
Start quarrying stone.


Turn 18 (580 BC)


We discover Horseback riding. Guess the barbies were working on it. Can you say "Keshik"??? Sure you can...
Ning-Hsai: Axe -> Keshik


Turn 19 (565 BC)


I notice we are now paying 1 gpt for units. Suicide the scout to get that gold back.
Not sure why, but war weariness is decreasing. Now at -2 in capital.


End of turnset.


Overall state of affairs:


Two chariots and three axes are on their way to Old Sarai. More units being built. Galley is 5 turns away. Old Sarai is 1 turn from obelisk, then 15 turns to bridge.
War weariness is not too bad, but nobody will make peace.
I would suggest we follow the galley at Beshbalik with one more galley. After the second one, we build a barracks and have Besh start building units.
Once the quarry is done, Turfan will be a decent producer. For the time being, Turfan can keep building galleys (no barracks).
I notice we can bridge to the eastern side of lush island. However, this will require us to build a city in the jungles on the western part of our island. Therefore, this does not seem like a good option.
I also notice that the western side of lush island is largly uninhabited. Great opportunity to build a foothold. So, I think we stay the course and go to lush island via Alex.
I think we are about 20 turns from DOW on Alex.

Oooo... do I get to do this part now?

Sam - UP :D
drhirsch - on deck
Harbourboy
AgedOne
markh
The-Hawk - just played

Pariah (skipped until he reports being available)

Got it. :)

I won't be playing before tomorrow evening at the earliest so plenty of time for comments. Looks like I will just be building units for someone else to play with though.

A couple of points I've noticed:


Looks like there is a bridge to the N towards Qin. Whilst we're probaly not interested in attacking Qin that doesn't mean he won't be interested in attacking us at some point. Not an immediate problem however.
Looks like Alex has founded a city just across from Old Sarai. :rolleyes: Bit of a pain as it would have been convenient to ferry our troops across before declaring on Alex.

Looks like there is a bridge to the N towards Qin. Whilst we're probaly not interested in attacking Qin that doesn't mean he won't be interested in attacking us at some point. Not an immediate problem however.


I've just had a close look at the save, and I don't think Qin can get through to us - well, not unless he founds a city on the SW corner of his land (between the copper and the cows) - as there are definitely ocean tiles all the way along his side of the fog-of-war.



I think we are about 20 turns from DOW on Alex.

Looks like another productive turnset. :goodjob:
I checked the graphs on the save and they make quite pleasant reading.
We've been leaving Alex sadly adrift on the score, and we're catching up to the rest of the pack.
The Power graph is even better. We've suddenly screamed up from last place to 4th in a very short space of time. In particular, we're well ahead of poor little Alex on power. :D

I noticed that we have some of our Barb friends on Alex's island. However, they seem transfixed like rabbits in the headlights and won't move from the village they're protecting. Don't they realise they would be more help to us by abandoning the village and spying out the rest of the island for us. The greater good, and all that. (Next time we're teamed with barbarians, we set up CIV schools for them before we start)

Are we on to the 10 turn sets now?

Nice turns. :goodjob:

At least the barbs knew what they had to do to give us our UU. :lol: I like that. Pity we are playing vanilla, so no stables.

@Harbourboy: yes, let's do 10 turns / set now.

I noticed that we have some of our Barb friends on Alex's island. However, they seem transfixed like rabbits in the headlights and won't move from the village they're protecting.

Bear in mind that we made peace with Alex during The-Hawk's turn. :) Mind you I agree it would have helped if they could scout out the bits of land that Alex doesn't control...

Bear in mind that we made peace with Alex during The-Hawk's turn. :) Mind you I agree it would have helped if they could scout out the bits of land that Alex doesn't control...

Actually that brings a small thought to my mind.
When we (and the Barbs) have made peace with an AI, then presumably the AI can still walk into huts - but can do it while sharing the tile with the barbs!

If that's the case, then why is the barb bothering to stay on the hut?

Also... what if the AI popped the hut to reveal 'hostile villagers' - who then proceed to stand by and act friendly??!

I think we are about 20 turns from DOW on Alex.


Sam - UP :D
drhirsch - on deck
Harbourboy
AgedOne
markh
The-Hawk - just played

Pariah (skipped until he reports being available)

Nice turns. :goodjob:

@Harbourboy: yes, let's do 10 turns / set now.


I've been putting all these snippets together . . . and I feel a sort of violent feeling beginning to arise ready for my next turnset :hammer: :yeah:

565 BC - 400 BC

Not really a lot to say about this turnset. I played 11 turns to even up the dates. WW increased to +3 again in Karakorum so I MM'd it not to grow. After the :whipped: unhappines wore off it lost the unhappy face. Turfan grew to 3 and the WW increased to +3 at the same time :mad: so it became unhappy. :hmm: Looks like WW scales with city size. I've now MM'd Ning-hsia to stop growth.

Noteworthy points were our barb allies taking Baghdad :) (Sally came and took it back later :(), Edo fought off more half witted attacks by our allies :rolleyes:, Beshbalik built our first galley and Old Sarai finished the Obelisk. I had it build a barracks afterwards and it's now building an axe. Old Sarai's borders should pop in 5 turns.

Research is now down to 50%. I didn't :whipped: any of the cities as I wanted to maximise :gold: so there is only WW unhappiness left. Alex's new city has expanded it's borders. I snapped a pic at the end of my turn to show the current state of play there. It also conveniently shows everyone's scores.


http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k182/mrprab/SGOTM05/TheGap-400BC.jpg



Turn 130/660 (550 BC) [06-Aug-2007 19:15:30]
Old Sarai begins: Barracks (9 turns)

IBT:

Turn 131/660 (535 BC) [06-Aug-2007 19:21:47]

IBT:

Turn 132/660 (520 BC) [06-Aug-2007 19:25:32]
Karakorum finishes: Axeman

IBT:

Turn 133/660 (505 BC) [06-Aug-2007 19:29:53]
Karakorum begins: Axeman (9 turns)
Axeman promoted: City Raider I
Beshbalik finishes: Galley

IBT:

Turn 134/660 (490 BC) [06-Aug-2007 19:33:56]
Beshbalik begins: Galley (19 turns)

IBT:

Turn 135/660 (475 BC) [06-Aug-2007 19:39:47]

IBT:

Turn 136/660 (460 BC) [06-Aug-2007 19:47:20]

IBT:

Turn 137/660 (445 BC) [06-Aug-2007 19:51:24]

IBT:

Turn 138/660 (430 BC) [06-Aug-2007 20:03:37]
Old Sarai finishes: Barracks

IBT:

Turn 139/660 (415 BC) [06-Aug-2007 20:06:52]
Old Sarai begins: Axeman (11 turns)
Turfan grows: 3

IBT:

Turn 140/660 (400 BC) [06-Aug-2007 20:10:33]



Turn 131, 535 BC: Baghdad has been captured by the Barbarian State!!!

Turn 136, 460 BC: Baghdad has been captured by the Arabian Empire!!!

Turn 137, 445 BC: Imhotep has been born in Persepolis!

Turn 138, 430 BC: Turfan will grow to size 3 on the next turn

Turn 139, 415 BC: Turfan has grown to size 3
Turn 139, 415 BC: Turfan has become unhappy
Turn 139, 415 BC: Ning-hsia will grow to size 3 on the next turn


Save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm5/Geezers_SG005_BC0400_01.Civ4SavedGame)

Roster

Sam - just played
drhirsch - UP
Harbourboy - on deck
AgedOne
markh
The-Hawk

Pariah (skipped until he reports being available)

Seems we are on our way. :goodjob:

I feel some tension rising and trouble for Alex.:trouble: From what I read AgedOne also seems to sharpen his axe already. :lol: Quite a bloodthirsty party we have here.

Nice turnset.

I the WW might become a big problem later on :-(

I reread the formula, it is indeed a percentage of the population of a city, so it scales with city size. You need to fight approximatly 100 fights to get a WW of 100%. Actually some less because of the difficulty level, and, because our brethen tend to lose quite often.
It decays slowly, so in the mid- or later game, when the barb sucide attacks stop because there is no more fog, we can expect a mild decrease.

Is there a reason you always promote the units long before you send them into the battle? I never do that, I only promote diretly before a fight or if I expect to be attacked in the next turn(s).

I feel some tension rising and trouble for Alex.:trouble: From what I read AgedOne also seems to sharpen his axe already. :lol: Quite a bloodthirsty party we have here.

Of course if we're truly efficient I might miss all the action by my turnset:

drhirsch plays next 10 turns and we are about ready to declare.
Harbourboy declares, and takes out both Alex's cities within 10 turns.
All will be quiet again next time I play. :(

Save one archer for me!

Is there a reason you always promote the units long before you send them into the battle? I never do that, I only promote diretly before a fight or if I expect to be attacked in the next turn(s).

Mostly so I don't forget later. I'd hate to have a stack bushwacked with a forgotten unpromoted unit. I honestly don't spend much time thinking about promotions. I'll create the occassional medic, other than that, mostly city raider (I generally don't plan on playing much defense). If I'm in a game long enough to be up against cavs or rifles, then I'll promote some units to specialize in fighting them.

For me there is a blue glow around every unpromoted unit, maybe you have it disabled in your graphics settings.

Well, nothing really happened during that turnset. Saladin showed up with a settler convoy on a galley. I have refrained from immediatly sinking it (a natural reaction), because of the bad chances vs. galleys on shore.
Did some MM and of course whipping for fun and production.


Turn 140

Changed some micromanagment in Karakorum. I think it is not useful to work a 2F/1H Tile instead of a 5F/1H to avoid growth, I will let it grow into unhappiness and use the population to whip something.


Turn 141

The Enemy is spotted near Ning-hsia! Sally wants to settle our land. Phasers to "kill" and set an interception course. Well, or something :-)


Turn 143

Whipped a granary in Karakorum. Sally heads farther north.


Turn 145

Borders at Old Sarai expand. We are now able to enter greek seas if we want to.


Turn 146

The people of Turfan seem to work somewhat slow. I decide to whip a barracks to remind them who they are.

Turn 149
We now have 6 Axeman, one of them garrisoned in Old Sarai, but available without causing unhappiness. Another one is being built.
We have 2 Charoits and one Keshik, further two being build. This are 12 Units, which will probably still be not enough for Alex.
So I start another Axeman at Old Sarai. With some help of the whip it will be ready to join the fight against the greeks.

Our mighty empire 250 BC:

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n217/hirschhornsalz/Civ4ScreenShot0010.jpg

Save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm5/Geezers_SG005_BC0250_01.Civ4SavedGame)

Saladin showed up with a settler convoy on a galley.

I'm somewhat surprised that Sally didn't settle in the SW. Perhaps he just decided to scout us before he settles in the SW? Btw what are we going do if he does settle in the SW? Ignore his city until Alex is out of the way?



We now have 6 Axeman, one of them garrisoned in Old Sarai, but available without causing unhappiness. Another one is being built.
We have 2 Charoits and one Keshik, further two being build. This are 12 Units, which will probably still be not enough for Alex.
So I start another Axeman at Old Sarai. With some help of the whip it will be ready to join the fight against the greeks.

Scratches head... The original idea was to transport our troops across the gulf in batches and then attack Alex. Now that Alex's Stonehenge enhanced city is just across the gulf we will need to DoW first and then transport our troops into the fight immediately.

We should have three galleys shortly which is enough for six military. Do we start the attack with six military, bearing in mind we don't how many troops Alex has in his city, and then fetch the rest afterwards or do we wait to build more galleys to attack with more troops at once?

I suspect most of the team will go for the first option, mainly because it takes so long to build more galleys, but it's worth thinking about this now.

I don't plan on going into battle unprepared.

I notice that Alex has 3 cities: Thebes, Sparta and Thermopylae. However, it is Sparta that is just across the sea from Old Sarai, and that we will attack first (To land there and march on another city instead doesn't seem too wise)

Sparta was founded about 25 turns ago, so I wouldn't expect it to be seething with resistance just yet. It isn't obvious whether it has been roaded in yet - which would be a bonus for us.

I just wish we knew more about Alex. Does he have copper? Or horses? Are there roads? How many units in the capital?

Overall, I feel that a concerted assault on Sparta - even assuming we have to drop our forces 2 by 2 on the hill - will succeed and give us a foothold from which to quickly sweep away the rest of Alex's world.

What are the chances of someone else trying to invade us in the next 50 turns or so?

IIRC there is a hill next to Alex's city. I would drop 6 units, then go back for more. Hard to believe Alex has enough units in this out city to hurt a stack of 6. If he only has a couple, we take the city with our 6, otherwise wait until reinforcements.

I am somewhat concerned about Alex's capital. All those years when he was stuck in one city, he had to be building something. He might have a fairly large stack there.

We'll need to decide about keeping his cities. Earlier I said we could let the barbs backfill for us, not so sure now. With the AI's floating around in galleys, we might see someone else settle. So, maybe if his cities are pretty good we should keep a couple. Or, maybe we need CoL first.... opinions?

RE: Saladin. If he wants to settle a city to our SW, fine by me. Unless it is in a crappy position, it saves us a settler.

I am somewhat concerned about Alex's capital. All those years when he was stuck in one city, he had to be building something. He might have a fairly large stack there.

Alex has Stonehenge IIRC. Could that be it? Sounds unlikely.


We'll need to decide about keeping his cities. Earlier I said we could let the barbs backfill for us, not so sure now. With the AI's floating around in galleys, we might see someone else settle. So, maybe if his cities are pretty good we should keep a couple. Or, maybe we need CoL first.... opinions?


I think we only need to worry about Sally at present. He's the only Civ who can get there and needs extra land. The lush island civs have plenty of room to expand and Qin can't get to us at present.

I haven't looked at the save yet so can't make specific comments yet.

Maybe we let Sally settle, let it grow to size 2, take the city and gift it to one of the AIs for peace. Toku comes to my mind as it will be hard to get peace from him without threatening him. We also have a bigger chance making peace with Sally then. As we cannot fight all the AIs at the same time I think we should make peace with AIs whenever possible without giving something from us.

Keeping another city besides the capital will cost a fortune. I estimate the next city at some 5-7 gold/turn, so I would rather like to raze it.
OTOH, a foothold will make the war easier, and we will be able to attack in two waves if neccesary, but we may not be able to afford it.

Saladin probably won't settle. He came obviously from the SW and could have settled there almost unnoticed.

Edith says: But you never know, the AIs tend to play inconsequently. Maybe he will settle when he is in the SW again.

Let's see what it looks like around the city. If there is a lux which could be hooked up immediately like gold, gems or ivory I would consider to keep the city as we could let our main cities grow. If not I would just raze all cities until we have COL, so we can whip courts in captured cities. Alex capitol should be nice, but this is just future business.

Here is a tactical map :-)

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n217/hirschhornsalz/Civ4ScreenShot0011.jpg

1. Load the troops at pink, don't move the galleys (It won't have any moves left in the second turn).
2. Move the galley to green, unloading the troops at the black hill and DOW in the same turn.
3. Move the galleys back, load it again and possibly attack the city at the red cross.
4. repeat at 2.

So we could get our 12 men army in 2 turns to the hill near the city.

Edit: Well, forget it, we won't e able to go from pink to green in 1 turn.
Instead we can unload to the grass in the north of the city.

1. Load the troops at pink, don't move the galleys (It won't have any moves left in the second turn).
2. Move the galley to green, unloading the troops at the black hill and DOW in the same turn.
3. Move the galleys back, load it again and possibly attack the city at the red cross.
4. repeat at 2.

So we could get our 12 men army in 2 turns to the hill near the city.

Edit: Well, forget it, we won't e able to go from pink to green in 1 turn.
Instead we can unload to the grass in the north of the city.


Following your edit, I think you're right that we must unload on the grass.

The main reason is that the galleys have to be at that place (the only one of Alex's coast tiles that touches ours) in order to get home in one turn.

There are other ways to unload on the hill, if we wanted, but the fleet would take 2 turns to get home for the next wave, and that delay might be costly.

I'm really hoping to see 3-4 archers in this city, and that they won't be bothered attacking our landing party.

I am somewhat concerned about Alex's capital. All those years when he was stuck in one city, he had to be building something. He might have a fairly large stack there.

Thinking about Thebes, and what Alex has been building there: Stonehenge was finished on turn 79. We're now on turn 150, so he's had 71 turns to build his army. He probably didn't have stone at the time he built SH, judging from the stone by Sparta and the small island probably not containing 2 stone, so he probably took 30 turns to build it. That means he had the initial 40 turns to start his building - maybe 2 or 3 units then.

During the 71 turns, we know Alex has produced 2 settlers, and surely a worker, but he might have had nothing else to build but military. Let's say 45 turns to build an army. He could have another 8 or 9 units - if he can support them.

What about buildings? Wouldn't he have built a granary or something?

What about buildings? Wouldn't he have built a granary or something?

He might well have done. Or a barracks, which is cheap for him. Alex is Aggressive & Philosophical - which I guess leads him towards building barracks and military on the one hand, and libraries etc on the other. But that's not to say he won't have a granary. He just won't have prioritised it as high as (say) expansionist leaders would.

We've just got to get in there and find out. And it looks like you and then me are the ones who'll be doing the damage! :hammer:
(I'm just trying to push the vision of axeman after axeman losing to unlucky RNG rolls to the back of my mind. Cold sweat. The rest of the team demanding to know what we did with their fine army :()

I have just finished G Minor 24 so I plan to be playing my turnset tomorrow morning.

I have just finished G Minor 24 so I plan to be playing my turnset tomorrow morning.

Looking forward to it. :)

Btw it's interesting to see what a bloodthirsty lot we are when looking at the SGOTM power graph. :lol:

(I'm just trying to push the vision of axeman after axeman losing to unlucky RNG rolls to the back of my mind. Cold sweat. The rest of the team demanding to know what we did with their fine army :()

:lol: Hey, I think this is a pretty experienced bunch of players... everyone knows about the RNG. The way I see it, if our troops don't step up and win, we don't want them anyhow. Kill off the unlucky ones, build some new ones!

Btw it's interesting to see what a bloodthirsty lot we are when looking at the SGOTM power graph. :lol:
:lol: I see what you mean!
We can't exactly hide the fact that we're about to go warmongering, can we?
Everyone else on a gentle incline - and then there's our graph streaking towards the skies!

By the way, notice that Fifth Element must have some serious amounts of time on their hands. They've actually passed us now on number of turns played.

Oh! And I notice Gypsy Kings might have built something impressive around turn 65, judging from the Culture graph !


:lol: Hey, I think this is a pretty experienced bunch of players... everyone knows about the RNG. The way I see it, if our troops don't step up and win, we don't want them anyhow. Kill off the unlucky ones, build some new ones!


Don't worry about me. Just a bit of 'pre-match nerves'. :)
One thing I will try hard to avoid, though - with the team's best interests at heart - is the rush of blood to the head that I've caught myself doing once or twice before. This is when your attack starts going badly, and the red mist descends, and you pump unit after unit into the attack instead of cutting your losses and stopping while you've still got some left alive. :(
Anyway - forewarned is forearmed.

Yes, I noticed too that Gypsy Kings build some wonder early. Probably Stonehenge, very interested in seeing how it worked out for them.

Good luck pounding Alex, you seem to be right on top of this game.

(Side note - congrats on making #1 Quatromaster Hawk)

(Side note - congrats on making #1 Quatromaster Hawk)

:goodjob: Hawk.

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm5/Geezers_SG005_BC0100_01.Civ4SavedGame

Turn 151/660 (235 BC) [12-Aug-2007 05:12:05]

IBT:

Turn 152/660 (220 BC) [12-Aug-2007 05:16:27]
Beshbalik finishes: Galley

IBT:

Turn 153/660 (205 BC) [12-Aug-2007 05:18:21]
Beshbalik begins: Galley (19 turns)
Karakorum finishes: Keshik
Turfan finishes: Axeman

IBT:

Turn 154/660 (190 BC) [12-Aug-2007 05:20:02]
Karakorum begins: Keshik (15 turns)
Turfan begins: Axeman (11 turns)
Karakorum grows: 4
Turfan grows: 3
Ning-hsia finishes: Keshik

IBT:
Tech learned: Priesthood

Turn 155/660 (175 BC) [12-Aug-2007 05:23:36]
Ning-hsia begins: Keshik (13 turns)

IBT:

Turn 156/660 (160 BC) [12-Aug-2007 05:25:11]

IBT:

Turn 157/660 (145 BC) [12-Aug-2007 05:25:41]

IBT:
Tech learned: Meditation

Turn 158/660 (130 BC) [12-Aug-2007 05:27:29]
Old Sarai finishes: Axeman

IBT:

Turn 159/660 (115 BC) [12-Aug-2007 05:28:45]
Old Sarai begins: Axeman (11 turns)

IBT:

Turn 160/660 (100 BC) [12-Aug-2007 05:29:45]

This is our army:

157968

Seems like Harbourboy had yet another late night. :lol:

Sally's galley seems to have dropped off it's cargo somewhere. :hmm:

I definitely get the feeling that Qin will be a problem at some stage. He's storming through the wonders. He must have taken Metal Casting from the Oracle. Whether or not we're interested in him, I suspect he'll come looking for us so we'll need to remember to not leave Karakorum defenceless.

It's a shame our third galley is still guarding the clams. If we want to attack with all three galleys, which seems reasonable, that means we can't attack for another 5 turns.

Thanks for your latest late night (or early morning) efforts, Harbourboy!
We're surely only moments away from the open warfare starting. :ar15:
Have all the axemen sharpened their blades freshly?

It's a shame our third galley is still guarding the clams. If we want to attack with all three galleys, which seems reasonable, that means we can't attack for another 5 turns.

Yes, I also think we need all 3 galleys. Being able to land our forces 6 by 6 rather than 4 by 4 will make a lot of difference, especially if Alex resents our uninvited presence and tries to push us into the sea!
That's 4 turns to get the clam-guard galley down to a loading point beside Old Sarai, and another 1 turn to get them to an unloading position.

I've downloaded the save ready for my turnset, but I'll play it tomorrow.

I'm ready for my role as ferry-boat captain. :)

Since it's an important decision point, I may pause mid-turn to post news and a screenshot when I find out what is waiting for us in Sparta. Reckon?

Since it's an important decision point, I may pause mid-turn to post news and a screenshot when I find out what is waiting for us in Sparta. Reckon?

It won't hurt. :) However if Alex doesn't have too much then it probably won't be necessary.

He's now last on the graph, so he should be easy pickings.

OK. I'll take my remit to be:
Get the forces ashore in an efficient manner, declaring en-route.
If I look into Sparta and 3 scared archers are staring back, I take the city with the first wave of 6 units.
If there are more defenders, or the city defence is 40% or 50% (unlikely), then I wait until the subsequent waves are in place.
Oh. And Sparta gets razed. We can't afford to keep it.

Meanwhile, back at home, we keep pumping out the military, and all the while keep an eye on economy, city management etc.

I don't think Qin is in any position to reach us at the moment, so I assume we only leave a skeleton staff back home in the cities.

Any requests? I'll read any that are left before I play - probably about 10 hours time.

Any requests?

Kill Alex... kill, kill... mwahahaha...

;)

Any requests?

It may be worthwhile rushing the keshik in Karakorum and then putting the overflow into a library.

I'm up and running on the invasion start turnset.
Here's what I see:
158034

Hopefully, no need for backup :D

OK, team. Are you ready for this?

Summary
The invasion commenced.
We landed attack wave 1 beside Sparta and took it easily.
This then revealed Tokugawa's presence on Alex's land.
Scouted further to find this was a small island, and not Alex's mainland!
Diverted the fleet carrying attack wave 2 to explore the coast.
It seems we cannot reach Alex's mainland unless we have a city with expanded borders on this island!
Destroyed Tokugawa's tiny outpost (Satsuma), but refrained from taking Thermopylae immediately.

Detail (My notes)

T160 (100BC)
Rushed Keshik in K. Queued Lib to go next. MM city to grow again.
Sent Galley from clams towards the embarkation point.
Loaded 2 axes onto each of the galleys already present.
General movement of forces towards Old Sarai.

IBT
Sal's empty galley moving N along our coast near our gold & stone.
Ning-hsia will grow into unhappiness.

T161
Two galleys now waiting off-shore loaded with axes.
Third galley half way to Old-Sarai.
MM Ning-Hsia to reduce growth.
Workers start another cottage by Karakorum.
Units still moving south.
Karakorum now on library (using overflow hammers)
Losing 5gpt, and only 4g left - so reduced tech to 40%

IBT
Sal's galley passing by Turfan.
Ning-Hsia will grow into unhappiness next turn.

T162
Back to 50% tech for a turn. Can afford it.
MM Ning-Hsia to stop growth.
Nearly all attack units now in Old Sarai.
Galley3 will be outside Old Sarai next turn.

IBT
Nothing

T163
Two Keshiks on galley3.
Tech rate down to (gulp) 30% to avoid going below 0g.

IBT
Nothing for us - tho some barb activity.
Karakorum will grow to 3 next turn.

T164
Tech back up to 40%
Third loaded galley arrives in position.

IBT
K grows to 3

T165
MM Karakorum to slow growth & get extra income.
Here we go!
Move galleys to Alex's coast, declaring as we go.
Sparta is defended by 2 archers, and the city has 20% cultural defence.
Land the first attack wave on the grass. 4 axes and 2 keshiks.
Galleys turn to get wave 2.

IBT
We learned Polytheism from the Barbs
No new units in Sparta. A worker runs indoors to shelter.

T166
Two hits and we're in! Axe and Keshik each defeat an archer.
Oh Ho! Tokugawa is on the island!! Red borders just to the south!
158035
We raze Sparta. It is just a memory. We gain a worker.
Most units move to forest, ready to defend if an attack come in. One Keshik moves on SE to scout ahead. No units visible.
Galleys reload with attack wave 2 and set sail.
We now have 93gold, so I can set the tech rate up a bit. 60%.

IBT
Nothing. Just barb activity.

T167
Scouted forward with Keshik - and -
Astonishing revelation! Sparta and Thermopylae are on a tiny island, away from the capital!!
158037
Toku has planted tiny Satsuma here also.

Need to be very careful! Was Alex only able to reach this island courtesy of his expanded borders in Thebes? If so, maybe we cannot reach his mainland without an expanded border of our own.

IBT
Nought.

T168
Snooping around the N coast of the island with our galleys rather than landing the forces.
Moved wave 1 to look at Satsuma. Single archer defending here also.

IBT
Nothing.

T169
The fleet moved on further. Appalling news! I don't think we can reach Thebes!!
158038
We may need Thermopylae (with expanded borders).
Oh. I splatted Satsuma.



Here's the next save: http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm5/Geezers_SG005_AD0050_01.Civ4SavedGame

Game Log:

Turn 160, 100 BC: You have trained a Keshik in Karakorum. Work has now begun on a Library.

Turn 165, 25 BC: You have discovered Polytheism!

Turn 166, 10 BC: Temujin's Axeman (5.50) vs Alexander's Archer (5.25)
Turn 166, 10 BC: Combat Odds: 59.2%
Turn 166, 10 BC: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 166, 10 BC: (Plot Defense: +20%)
Turn 166, 10 BC: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 166, 10 BC: (City Defense: +50%)
Turn 166, 10 BC: (City Attack: -20%)
Turn 166, 10 BC: Temujin's Axeman is hit for 19 (81/100HP)
Turn 166, 10 BC: Temujin's Axeman is hit for 19 (62/100HP)
Turn 166, 10 BC: Temujin's Axeman is hit for 19 (43/100HP)
Turn 166, 10 BC: Alexander's Archer is hit for 20 (80/100HP)
Turn 166, 10 BC: Alexander's Archer is hit for 20 (60/100HP)
Turn 166, 10 BC: Alexander's Archer is hit for 20 (40/100HP)
Turn 166, 10 BC: Alexander's Archer is hit for 20 (20/100HP)
Turn 166, 10 BC: Temujin's Axeman is hit for 19 (24/100HP)
Turn 166, 10 BC: Temujin's Axeman is hit for 19 (5/100HP)
Turn 166, 10 BC: Alexander's Archer is hit for 20 (0/100HP)
Turn 166, 10 BC: Temujin's Axeman has defeated Alexander's Archer!
Turn 166, 10 BC: Temujin's Keshik (6.60) vs Alexander's Archer (5.85)
Turn 166, 10 BC: Combat Odds: 69.7%
Turn 166, 10 BC: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 166, 10 BC: (Plot Defense: +20%)
Turn 166, 10 BC: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 166, 10 BC: (City Defense: +50%)
Turn 166, 10 BC: Alexander's Archer is hit for 21 (79/100HP)
Turn 166, 10 BC: Temujin's Keshik is hit for 18 (82/100HP)
Turn 166, 10 BC: Alexander's Archer is hit for 21 (58/100HP)
Turn 166, 10 BC: Alexander's Archer is hit for 21 (37/100HP)
Turn 166, 10 BC: Temujin's Keshik is hit for 18 (64/100HP)
Turn 166, 10 BC: Alexander's Archer is hit for 21 (16/100HP)
Turn 166, 10 BC: Alexander's Archer is hit for 21 (0/100HP)
Turn 166, 10 BC: Temujin's Keshik has defeated Alexander's Archer!
Turn 166, 10 BC: You have captured Sparta!!!
Turn 166, 10 BC: You have destroyed the city of Sparta!!!

Turn 169, 35 AD: Temujin's Axeman (5.50) vs Tokugawa's Archer (5.25)
Turn 169, 35 AD: Combat Odds: 59.2%
Turn 169, 35 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 169, 35 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 169, 35 AD: (City Defense: +50%)
Turn 169, 35 AD: Temujin's Axeman is hit for 19 (81/100HP)
Turn 169, 35 AD: Temujin's Axeman is hit for 19 (62/100HP)
Turn 169, 35 AD: Tokugawa's Archer is hit for 20 (80/100HP)
Turn 169, 35 AD: Temujin's Axeman is hit for 19 (43/100HP)
Turn 169, 35 AD: Tokugawa's Archer is hit for 20 (60/100HP)
Turn 169, 35 AD: Temujin's Axeman is hit for 19 (24/100HP)
Turn 169, 35 AD: Tokugawa's Archer is hit for 20 (40/100HP)
Turn 169, 35 AD: Temujin's Axeman is hit for 19 (5/100HP)
Turn 169, 35 AD: Tokugawa's Archer is hit for 20 (20/100HP)
Turn 169, 35 AD: Tokugawa's Archer is hit for 20 (0/100HP)
Turn 169, 35 AD: Temujin's Axeman has defeated Tokugawa's Archer!
Turn 169, 35 AD: Your Axeman has destroyed a Archer!
Turn 169, 35 AD: You have captured Satsuma!!!
Turn 169, 35 AD: You have pillaged 12 ? from the destruction of Satsuma!!!
Turn 169, 35 AD: Beshbalik will grow to size 3 on the next turn
Turn 169, 35 AD: Cyrus adopts Organized Religion!

Autolog

Turn 160/660 (100 BC) [12-Aug-2007 11:00:48]
Karakorum begins: Library (135 turns)
Karakorum finishes: Keshik

IBT:
Attitude Change: Qin Shi Huang(China) towards Asoka(India), from 'Cautious' to 'Annoyed'
Attitude Change: Qin Shi Huang(China) towards Saladin(Arabia), from 'Pleased' to 'Cautious'
Attitude Change: Qin Shi Huang(China) towards Cyrus(Persia), from 'Cautious' to 'Annoyed'
Attitude Change: Asoka(India) towards Qin Shi Huang(China), from 'Cautious' to 'Annoyed'
Attitude Change: Isabella(Spain) towards Alexander(Greece), from 'Cautious' to 'Annoyed'
Attitude Change: Cyrus(Persia) towards Qin Shi Huang(China), from 'Cautious' to 'Annoyed'
Attitude Change: Alexander(Greece) towards Isabella(Spain), from 'Cautious' to 'Annoyed'

Turn 161/660 (85 BC) [12-Aug-2007 11:13:59]

IBT:

Turn 162/660 (70 BC) [12-Aug-2007 11:24:36]

IBT:

Turn 163/660 (55 BC) [12-Aug-2007 11:31:12]

IBT:

Turn 164/660 (40 BC) [12-Aug-2007 11:37:03]
Karakorum grows: 3
Turfan finishes: Axeman

IBT:

Turn 165/660 (25 BC) [12-Aug-2007 11:43:57]
Axeman promoted: Cover
Turfan begins: Axeman (11 turns)

IBT:
Tech learned: Polytheism
Attitude Change: Alexander(Greece) towards Temujin(Mongolia), from 'Annoyed' to 'Furious'

Turn 166/660 (10 BC) [12-Aug-2007 11:54:57]
While attacking in Greek territory at Sparta, Axeman defeats (0.25/5): Greek Archer (Prob Victory: 59.2%)
Keshik promoted: Combat I
While attacking in Greek territory at Sparta, Keshik defeats (3.84/6): Greek Archer (Prob Victory: 69.7%)
Captured Sparta (Alexander)
Razed Sparta
Sparta lost
Keshik promoted: Flanking I

IBT:

Turn 167/660 (5 AD) [12-Aug-2007 12:06:43]
Keshik promoted: Flanking I
Axeman promoted: City Raider II
Ning-hsia finishes: Keshik

IBT:

Turn 168/660 (20 AD) [12-Aug-2007 12:15:18]
Ning-hsia begins: Axeman (9 turns)
Karakorum begins: Keshik (15 turns)

IBT:

Turn 169/660 (35 AD) [12-Aug-2007 12:21:04]
While attacking in Greek territory at Satsuma, Axeman defeats (0.25/5): Japanese Archer (Prob Victory: 59.2%)
Razed Satsuma
Old Sarai finishes: Axeman

IBT:
Civics Change: Cyrus(Persia) from 'Paganism' to 'Organized Religion'

Turn 170/660 (50 AD) [12-Aug-2007 12:26:42]

Ahhh... nice to be at war with Alex. Great job!

Stepping back from the to look at the big picture, we have a serious economy problem in front of us. I think we can only build a handful more units and we go cash negative at 0% research. Obviously we can't afford to go 0%, I suspect Alex's buddies on the lush island will be much tougher nuts to crack. We are facing a tough balance... build enough units to be successful, but not so many as to overburden our economy.

I think we are going to need to shift a couple of our citizens to commerce instead of pumping units. Its a good thing we've been building cottages, but we need to work more of them so they grow to towns.

However, we can't give up on aggressive conquest. I think our best long term answer is to establish a foothold on lush island, build a FP in our original island, then build the capital on lush island. If we delay now, with our research pace the AI's will get away from us. As long as we keep taking cities, we can live on the gold boost we get every time. So, full speed ahead on conquest, this is not the time to be meek.

I would recommend moving a citizen in Karakorum to a cottage, and maybe one or two others to cottages in other cities. If any AI wants peace, we should take it (maybe Toku will take it since we razed his city). We've got to get out of this war weariness problem.

And (shudder)... I think we keep Themopylae. It is going to hit our economy, but we need a step off point to Alex capital. If we do keep it, our ex-Alex worker should start building cottages asap. I wish there was a way to get that silver, but I suspect a city down there would be a waste.

PS... I was right about Alex being on a small island, wasn't I?

Well that's an interesting kick in the teeth. :crazyeye:

I agree that we need to take and hold Thermopylae despite the cost. Given that we need to cut costs and crack on with science I'm surprised that Karakorum is building yet another keshik insteasd of carrying on with the library. :confused: Since we haven't lost any troops yet I think we should change our city builds away from military and towards infrastructure. Any military builds that are close to completion should be completed and older units such as warriors and archers/chariots deleted to compensate.

I believe we should disembark our military from the galleys. It would be rather annoying, and a waste of hammers, if Alex or Toku managed to sink some of our galleys whilst they still have troops aboard.

The fourth galley under construction should probably be sent to investigate the north route towards Qin. On the subject of Qin it looks as though there's a sea passage from his land towards lush island.

Since Sally seems to have covered most of his island it may well be worthwhile making peace with him for the time being.

Roster

Sam
drhirsch
Harbourboy
AgedOne - just played
markh- UP
The-Hawk - on deck

Pariah (skipped until he reports being available)

Stepping back from the to look at the big picture, we have a serious economy problem in front of us.

Given that we need to cut costs and crack on with science I'm surprised that Karakorum is building yet another keshik insteasd of carrying on with the library. :confused:

Oops. Yes. Sorry guys.
I think I hadn't quite got my head back round from thinking we were going to be in a mass brawl with Alex that was going to need a never-ending supply of military. The ease with which Sparta fell, and Thermopylae is going to, just took me by surprise.

Anyway, not too late to fix it. The library has a fair number of hammers towards it, and has missed out on 2 turns of building.

I think we keep Themopylae. It is going to hit our economy, but we need a step off point to Alex capital. If we do keep it, our ex-Alex worker should start building cottages asap.

I agree that we need to take and hold Thermopylae despite the cost.

After I got over my initial shock, I had time to think about this more. Maybe we don't need Thermopylae.
Two small pieces of evidence.
The first is that Athens is probably on the far side of Alex's main island (judging from the early screenshots where we first saw his borders). In that case, he wouldn't have been able to use expanded borders as early as he got across to the island.
The second is that Tokugawa was able to settle there. Of course he might have arrived via expanded borders too (he has OB with Alex and they are best buds)
I just feel that if Alex was boxed in on his island until after stonehenge widened his borders we would have seen him settling his 2nd city on lush continent.
All a bit guessworky, but I just feel there has to be a way through that we haven't seen yet.

I believe we should disembark our military from the galleys. It would be rather annoying, and a waste of hammers, if Alex or Toku managed to sink some of our galleys whilst they still have troops aboard.

D'oh. Yes. My brain definitely slipped out of gear for the last couple of turns, following the big revelations.
Next person up can pop these guys straight off onto shore before doing anything else. I saved at the start of turn, so all units are still to move.


However, we can't give up on aggressive conquest. I think our best long term answer is to establish a foothold on lush island, build a FP in our original island, then build the capital on lush island. If we delay now, with our research pace the AI's will get away from us. As long as we keep taking cities, we can live on the gold boost we get every time. So, full speed ahead on conquest, this is not the time to be meek.

Totally agree.
We got something like 90 gold from Sparta. We've got a bit more to come from Thermoplyae. Athens would be a big cash bonus, if we can get there soon. (I seem to have been calling Athens "Thebes" sometimes, I notice. Just who are we invading?:crazyeye: )
This end of lush continent is ripe for a foothold. There are 2 barbarian cities here (Magyar and Phoenician) and just Corinth to dispose of. Lots of unclaimed land, and lots of gold. ;)

After I got over my initial shock, I had time to think about this more. Maybe we don't need Thermopylae.
Two small pieces of evidence.
The first is that Athens is probably on the far side of Alex's main island (judging from the early screenshots where we first saw his borders). In that case, he wouldn't have been able to use expanded borders as early as he got across to the island.
The second is that Tokugawa was able to settle there. Of course he might have arrived via expanded borders too (he has OB with Alex and they are best buds)
I just feel that if Alex was boxed in on his island until after stonehenge widened his borders we would have seen him settling his 2nd city on lush continent.
All a bit guessworky, but I just feel there has to be a way through that we haven't seen yet.)

Interesting points. However there definitely seems to be a row of ocean tiles separating Alex's island from this one. Equally we need to make our mind up before we take Thermopylae.

We can try having a quick scout with the galleys but realistically I think we have to take Thermopylae.

Interesting points. However there definitely seems to be a row of ocean tiles separating Alex's island from this one. Equally we need to make our mind up before we take Thermopylae.

We can try having a quick scout with the galleys but realistically I think we have to take Thermopylae.

Yes. You're probably right. My evidence is a bit vague isn't it.
Considering we should be unloading our forces immediately the next turn starts, and returning the fleet to Old Sarai, I guess we could afford for one galley to move onwards instead of back in the hope of finding a way through.

My main driver in this is the thought of how much of a drain on our already weak economy taking ownership of Thermopylae is going to be.

The other slightly depressing thing is that to achieve the plan The-Hawk outlined for relocating to lush continent we will need courthouses. Civil Service seems a way off at the moment, and receding every minute.

We can try having a quick scout with the galleys but realistically I think we have to take Thermopylae.

One other reason for keeping Thermo... it will create a choke point on settlers from lush island. We can keep this island to ourselves, maybe our barb allies will settle it.

Oops. Yes. Sorry guys.
I think I hadn't quite got my head back round from thinking we were going to be in a mass brawl with Alex that was going to need a never-ending supply of military. The ease with which Sparta fell, and Thermopylae is going to, just took me by surprise.

No problem at all. I'm OK with building a bit more military, I think we will need it. As I said, I think we need to sustain our attack and this will require more units. Besides, I suspect we will spend several units taking Alex's capital without cats. We just need to watch our bank account. No point in building units only to lose them to bankruptcy.

By the way, Alex has expanded onto the western side of lush island... looks like a candidate site for our toehold.

I also noticed a three gold site further onto lush island... might be a great capital someday.

:goodjob: AgedOne. 3 attacks without a loss. The RNG was gracious to you. Each below 70%. I would have lost at least 2 units.:lol:

In my trials for the previous HOF gmajor I had axes attacking an archer in a city each at 59% and guess what, the archer killed 3 axes clean, a fourth axe wounded it, a fifth died at 89% and a sixth one killed it finally. Thank you.

I made a statistic of my battles then and the outcome was :

from 100 battles at 60+% my units win 45 times
from 100 battles at 70+% my units win 59 times
from 100 battles at 80+% my units win 53 times :eek:
from 100 battles at 90+% my units win 88 times

Sorry, I got off track. :(

I got it. Will have a look tonight.

There may be a southern passage to Alex/Lushland. We should definetly do some exploring before deciding about keeping Thermopylae. I suspect too, we won't need it.
OTOH settling on the Island where both silver and the fish are in the fat cross might be worth it - we have a serious happiness problem and a +1 pop for most of our cities will reduce military cost and increase income, so even if the new city is at -8 coins or something it will soon pay off.
I would like to stop military builds now (or delay them until we know more about the southern passage) and resume when we get cats.

Hi folks.....

Been on holiday 2 weeks. No forum access. Is there any chance I could still contribute at all?

Hi Pariah, of course. Welcome to the team. I would suggest you go through the few pages :) and get yourself familiar with the situation and what we have discussed so far (if you do not have it done, yet). Just post when you think you are ready for playing and I will fit you into the roster.

:goodjob: AgedOne. 3 attacks without a loss. The RNG was gracious to you. Each below 70%. I would have lost at least 2 units.:lol:



Yes. This didn't occur to me at the time, but I was very lucky. I was working on the assumption that I had 6 good units against their 2, and that I might lose a couple but would win through in the end. I just remember thinking that the battle for Sparta had gone very easily, but hadn't appreciated how much the fickle RNG had been on my side.
(All change next time of course.)

Had a look at the save. BTW please save at the end of the turn, not at the beginning. Especially when asked to build something as you cannot scroll around, but have to give a buildorder. I saved it again after having had a look.

Unloaded a galley and moved it 1SE, 1NE to reveal a passage to Athens (see picture). The passage is safe, so I would say raze Thermopylae. We would need quite a lot of units to go for Athens without cats. I wouldn't try it.

Had a look at the save. BTW please save at the end of the turn, not at the beginning. Especially when asked to build something as you cannot scroll around, but have to give a buildorder. I saved it again after having had a look.
No problem.
We will all have to do this, of course.
(I left it at the same turn position that I picked it up in.)

Unloaded a galley and moved it 1SE, 1NE to reveal a passage to Athens (see picture). The passage is safe, so I would say raze Thermopylae. We would need quite a lot of units to go for Athens without cats. I wouldn't try it.

Darn! If I'd played one more turn I would've seen this and saved a lot of unnecessary worry.
Mind you, those Phalanxes look a bit naughty.
As you said, I think we need cats to have any realistic chance of taking Athens.

Can we by-pass it and get our foothold on lush continent by taking Corinth instead?

:goodjob: AgedOne for thinking there might be a sea passage and mark for checking it out before taking Thermopylae.

I see it's another one of those sea passages that relies on tile corners touching each other. That explains why it looked as though we would need culture to bridge the ocean. I just seem to have real problems with seeing those.:cry:

Definitely agree that we can raze Thermopylae. :D

I can't say that I'm too happy about waiting for cats to take down Athens. Even with what we get from Thermopylae it's going to be at least another 19 turns, unless our allies help us, to get Construction. We then need to build the cats and then transport them so it's 25 turns, at a guess, before we can attack? Meanwhile Alex will be building more military. :(

OTOH 60% culture is a bit of a bummer to attack. I suppose the question is whether it's worth building a few more troops and hoping to take Athens through sheer numbers. Oh btw we should keep Athens for Stonehenge.

It's certainly worth finding Alex's metal to stop him building any more phalanxes or axes. Taking Corinth is certainly a good alternative if we decide to bypass Athens. Mind you, the unhappiness from 'we want to rejoin the motherland' on top of WW will be a real pain.

Without cats I would guess we'd need about 18 units to take it. I do not think that it is worth it. I agree that his other cities might be a better target. Concentrate on these and come back to Athens when we have cats. How does that sound ? :)

Definitely agree that we can raze Thermopylae. :D

I still don't think I would raze. Thermo is in a very strategic location. If we raze, then another AI can reach and settle this island. If another AI settles here, unless we can get OB with them, we lose this path to lush island. I think we keep Thermo and Alex's capital so we have a coastal path (and later a trade route) between the old world and the new.

I agree we need cats to take out the capital... we can't afford to build enough units to take it through attrition.

I still don't think I would raze. Thermo is in a very strategic location. If we raze, then another AI can reach and settle this island. If another AI settles here, unless we can get OB with them, we lose this path to lush island. I think we keep Thermo and Alex's capital so we have a coastal path (and later a trade route) between the old world and the new.

We're already at war with most of them. We don't need no stinking OB to use this path. :lol: The trade route is another matter altogether. However whilst we are at war with Alex is still disrupted anyway. :confused:

Since Thermopylae will cost us needed gold for research I'm struggling to see the advantage in keeping it apart from a place to heal. Perhaps I'm missing something obvious If so, then perhaps somebody can tell me what it is.


I agree we need cats to take out the capital... we can't afford to build enough units to take it through attrition.

Pity...

Agree with you Sam. We are at war with anybody, so if anybody settles on that island it will not prevent us to sail through their waters. No OB required. However we could station some troops on the island and kill any arriving settler partly for some cheap workers. :devil: Later on when our economic situation is better we can settle there. It is an easy spot to get us over the dom limit.

Construction is 19 turns to go. I have to check whether we can squeeze out some more commerce to speed this up. Thermopylae will give us some more money, so we should be able to shorten the time a bit more. The empty galley will continue scouting and if I see another tempting city I will go for it while waiting for construction to come in. Was it possible to lure out defenders by placing a worker on a nearby tile. I would consider to use the captured worker to place it near Athens to lure out some defenders if possible.

All things considered I would vote for razing Thermopylae. IMO the economic hit of owning it outweighs the benefits of the strategic location.

The city I'd most like to take and keep is Athens, but given that this looks horrendously costly until we have cats, then Corinth would be my next choice.
It was size 3 (iirc) the last time I saw it, coastal and from what we've seen so far, we would find it defended by a couple of archers. It would allow us to occupy the E end of lush continent, along with our barb allies, who have 2 cities there. On the downside, it is awfully close to Athens, and would come with a barrel-load of unhappy citizens who yearn to rejoin etc... If we could just keep a bunch of strong units there until we can take Athens, we'd have our invasion plan up and running!

1) 50AD : Old Sarai : galley
Karakorum is changed to a lib

set cities to work cottages where possible

Keshik kills archer in Thermopylae and razes the city for 69 gold

BTW has anybody seen Alex' galley ?

IBT : nothing

2) 65AD : move our galley SE of Athens and spot his galley with a settler and an archer. Another worker for us.
Beshbalik grew and gets another cottage to work

IBT : Beshbalik : galley -> lib

3) 80AD : Alex built another phalanx in Athens
continue to explore his island. His copper is right beside Athens. I will land a Keshik and an axe there to pillage that.

IBT : Alex' loaded galley appears East of the island where our units are located.

4) 95AD : Scout Corínth. It is defended by a single archer. I will get two axes there.

IBT : Alex drops his settler and archer directly among our units on the northern half of the island

5) 110AD : an axe kills the archer, promoting our axe (will be CR2) and we have another worker
unload an axe and keshik on Alex' copper

IBT : Alex decides to attack the keshik and the axe. a phalanx and a chariot die

Turfan : axe -> granary

Isabella completes The Panthenon

6) 125AD : our landing party is quite hurt. The axe is promoted to Strength 2. Both units go back on their ship for healing

IBT : nothing

7) 140AD : just moving units

IBT : Ning Hsia : axe -> lib

8) 155AD : again moving units

IBT : nothing

9) 170AD : load galleys with 2 CR2 axes, a medic axe and a keshik

The pic shows the Greek lands. I would raze Corinth for some cash. I would also consider to disband our MP archers. We have axes there which will not be shipped for quite some time. The archers are just causing costs at the moment.

Agree with you Sam. We are at war with anybody, so if anybody settles on that island it will not prevent us to sail through their waters. No OB required. However we could station some troops on the island and kill any arriving settler partly for some cheap workers. :devil: Later on when our economic situation is better we can settle there. It is an easy spot to get us over the dom limit.

So, are we saying we will not make peace with any AIs :confused: ? I thought we wanted peace as soon as possible due to war weariness? I think we now have to stay at war with all the AIs, at least until we capture Athens and it culture expands to make a choke point (or we re-settle this island). If we make peace and an AI settler goes to this empty island, we will have to find another route to the land of milk and honey. After the long war, I don't think they will give us OB...

Some things to discuss before my turnset...

- Are we staying at war with all AI's? Or, do we make peace to lower war weariness and take the risk of being forced to go another direction to lush island?
- Do we keep Athens and/or Corinth? I actually like Corinth as a toehold, but I think it may be hard to hold. If we are staying at war with all the AI's, everybody on lush island is going to come our way. However, maybe our barb allies provide a screen while we get established?
- But, if we don't eventually keep some cities on lush island, how will we make war there? It will be a bunch of AI's dogpiling us, I don't think our initial island will produce units fast enough to fight that many AI's.
- What about Mark's suggestion on disbanding MP's? I think this is a good idea, but risky. We should be expecting AI's from our North and Southwest any time now. Maybe we build a couple of Keshiks and depend on their mobility to defend broader expanses of beach?

I will be away tomorrow (Wed), so we have another couple of days to discuss...

By the way, I really love the strategic challenge of this scenario. :goodjob: There are no obvious answers to the economic challenge... you either depend on a small number of cities on a crappy island, or you grab cities and deal with big maintenance headaches. I suspect the winner of this contest will be a team that really pushes the envelope on their economy... i.e. runs a deficit economy and depends on a steady stream of city captures to stay solvent. I did this successfully once in a deity game, but it is a very dicey proposition. If you fall behind on capturing cities, you start losing units in a hurry.

This is a challenging situation.

I think peace brings two advantages:
1) Less war weariness. That is crippling.
2) Less chance of being invaded up the backdoor, allowing more focus on the targets who are actually in our sights.

Maintaining "all war" can only get worse as the AI gets more advanced naval capability and would require extensive and expensive defensive measures.

I checked and nobody will make peace except Alex and I do not think we will ever be able to make peace with any AI unless we hurt them badly, so I saw no reason to not raze Thermopylae. IIRC it was not a good city anyway. :mischief:

Athens looks quite good. Capitols usually are in good spots, so I think we should keep it. Corinth also is not too bad.

We urgently need COL for courthouses and IW to clear the jungle and build more cottages on our mainland. IMO we delay this too long. Should we change our current research to IW ? The barbs will continue to research construction, so at least some beakers will still go into that. Turfan and Ning Hsia could have had more commerce for long now with more cottages.

In the cities where we have archers as MP we now have axes that cannot be shipped soon as our galleys have to ship all the other troops. We have another two axes and two chariots in Beshbalik and I placed a Keshik between Turfan and Karakorum for safety, should a landing happen. I also sent a galley North to see whether Qin has a way to get to us. A landing from him seems to be still future business.

For Alex we have more than enough units. Once we have cats he will be gone in a second. I would consider to ship over 2 Keshiks and 2 axes to the big island and use them as a pillaging party. :D This will give us some money and will cripple the AI.

I do not like to say this, but maybe we should disband the two captured workers. Normally this is a "No Way" for me as I love workers, but they cannot do anything at the moment and just cost us money we do not have. Our workers on the mainland are already getting out of business as we do not have IW to clear the jungle and there are no more tiles to improve. Did I mention we need IW ????

Disbanding the workers is ok for me. I would have proposed this too. And I would disband some MP too.

I think razing Thermopylae was right, but we should resettle the island to hook up the fish and the silver. Somebody should start a settler somewhere :-)

We won't be able to pay our deficit with city razing for long, sooner or later feudalism will be discovered. But it is of course good to do as much damage as possible, maybe we get a peace treaty.

OK Markh - deal me in please.

Sam
drhirsch
Harbourboy
AgedOne
markh - just played
The-Hawk - UP
Pariah - on deck

Pariah, I guess you are familiar with all the rules for SGOTMs. If not please check before you start playing.

Just read the rules, if you mean this thread (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=1733966&postcount=61). So I can expect The-Hawk to finish his turnset by Saturday evening?

Yes, these are the basic rules. Our team has a tradition to be friendly with each other, so no shouting or flaming please. Criticism is always welcome, but it should be done in a "civilized" way. We are here to learn from each other and have fun (except for Harbourboy, who does not seem to do anything else than working CIV lately :lol: ).

I'm not into flaming, don't worry.

Regarding the rules: that one about no reloads from previous saves or autosaves seems a bit harsh. What's the point of having the autosave function, except to restart? If my PC crashes and I have to continue from the last autosave, does that show up on my future save files and look like cheating?

Yes, it does and you will get a warning from the admins. A second time and the team might be disqualified. If a crash occurs please also mention it in the log you give after playing your set.
Please set your autosave to save each turn. It will not affect your game, but will prevent you from trouble. ;) If it crashes you do not have to replay several turns which could give you a totally different result than before. If you made a mistake before crashing you will have to do the mistake again.

Please keep in mind that you just have to play 10 turns per set, so it is not that time cosuming and could be played more carefully than you might do in single player games. The team will inevitably have to go with the decisions the turnplayer makes. In case you are not sure what to do you can save the game at any time and come here asking for advice. This will not affect your playtime and your team mates will appreciate this. :)

So, are we saying we will not make peace with any AIs :confused: ? I thought we wanted peace as soon as possible due to war weariness? I think we now have to stay at war with all the AIs, at least until we capture Athens and it culture expands to make a choke point (or we re-settle this island). If we make peace and an AI settler goes to this empty island, we will have to find another route to the land of milk and honey. After the long war, I don't think they will give us OB...

I don't think it's quite as bad as it looks. Alex doesn't like any of the rest of lush island and they don't like him so it's reasonably unlikely that he would give them an OB anyway. Neither Alex or Toku was likely to give peace given that we razed cities of theirs. I think the only AI we need to worry about is Sally. Since the consensus was that we need cats, my view was certainly that we need to get it asap. Hanging onto Thermopylae would have made that much slower.


Some things to discuss before my turnset...

- Are we staying at war with all AI's? Or, do we make peace to lower war weariness and take the risk of being forced to go another direction to lush island?

See my comments above. Since mark states that nobody was willing to make peace except Alex the question is probably moot.


- Do we keep Athens and/or Corinth? I actually like Corinth as a toehold, but I think it may be hard to hold. If we are staying at war with all the AI's, everybody on lush island is going to come our way. However, maybe our barb allies provide a screen while we get established?
- But, if we don't eventually keep some cities on lush island, how will we make war there? It will be a bunch of AI's dogpiling us, I don't think our initial island will produce units fast enough to fight that many AI's.


I think we should certainly keep Athens for Stonehenge. I'm less certain about Corinth. Taking it will save us a settler. However we'll suffer more unhappiness from it's citizens. Equally we are more likely to be attacked by the other AI. If we keep it then we need a decent garrison except that we may want them for the attack on Athens. :hmm: On balance we may well be better razing, and then settling later, to help maintain research in Construction. It'll give our cities something to build in any case.


- What about Mark's suggestion on disbanding MP's? I think this is a good idea, but risky. We should be expecting AI's from our North and Southwest any time now. Maybe we build a couple of Keshiks and depend on their mobility to defend broader expanses of beach?

The idea sounds good but Sally has already settled in the west. Given that we probably need to stay at war with him I think we should keep the existing MPs. Karakorum may be an exception with that warrior. I think the keshik should be in there. Alex is unlikely to reach us but Sally can send a galley round. It doesn't look like Qin will come from the N in the near future. He's more likely to come via Alex's sea link.


Did I mention we need IW ????


Can't remember you mentioning it before. :lol: The barbs are gradually accumulating beakers towards IW for us. I really want to get Alex out of the way soonest so I would vote for continuing the research into Construction. I agree that IW should be next however.

EDIT: Welcome to the team Pariah. :)

EDIT 2: I think there's a lot to be said for landing 4 axes on Alex's copper and pillaging it. Mark tried it with two and had problems but four should be ok. We don't want him building loads of phalanxes. After pillaging the copper the axes should fortify and stay there. With luck Alex will just keep attacking the axes and hopefully lose his troops. Meanwhile the keshiks can go and take/raze Corinth.

Pariah - welcome in. You only seem to have missed one of your turnsets! OK, it was the longer one we all have at the start, but you're not that far adrift of the rest of us. :)


Well. We seem to have quite a bit happened since I was last on here.

Tech.
On the research debate, I guess as long as we get both Construction and Iron Working fairly soon, it doesn't matter which order they arrive in. Both are about 300 beakers from completion, and will take about 10 turns (although that might be how long for us alone to research without barb-aid) I'd say we continue as we are with Construction, but get Iron immediately after. Then we get Code of Laws and try to sort that economy out.

Cities.
Yes, I'd agree we want to keep Athens and Stonehenge. Corinth is more of a puzzle. It's not a great location, with just the fish & crabs, but it is coastal, and would serve as a sea port to launch our invasion. On the other hand, we could use the barbarian city - Magyar - as our sea port (if it survives).

The best locations for cities at the eastern end of lushland seem to be around the gold, and making use of the food resources nearby. But these are not coastal, and nobody has made use of these locations yet. We are certainly not going to be settling our own cities here, are we? I can only see that working a bit further down the line, if we have a new capital here, and a FP back in the old homeland.

Is it worth considering this as a medium-term plan:
Take and raze Corinth.
Take Athens with cats (and keep).
Land forces at Magyar.
When we have CoL, build courthouses.
Settle by the gold, cattle and forest/hills and make this our new capital.

Or is this all going to take too long? :(

The best locations for cities at the eastern western :p end of lushland seem to be around the gold, and making use of the food resources nearby.

Your ideas on tech order follow my line of thinking. Your thoughts on Maygar and other cities are interesting. One possible problem I can see with the idea is that somebody like Cyrus starts building cities down on the coast. However I would thought he's more likely to head for the gold initially. I'll have to think further about that.

The whole issue of autosaving shouldn't be a big deal for anyone. How often will your game crash in the space of playing only 10 turns? My game has never ever crashed, so I'm not sure what the big deal is.

Are we planning on having a Great Person farm anywhere?

OK, this is my "got it". I'll play in about 24 hours, so feel free to post any last minute advice.

I have not looked at the save (I get nervous about opening the save when it is my turnset unless I'm going to actually play. I'm not sure if it is allowed under the SGOTM rules). However, summing up what I think is consensus...

- Finish Construction so we can get some cats going. IW comes next.
- I will attempt to raze Corinth.
- Maybe I will stash our survivors from razing Corinth at Magyar for the time being. We can help defend it. I wonder if we will avoid supply costs if the troops are in barb land?
- I will attempt to disconnect Alex's copper so he can't build more of those pesky Phalanx.
- I'm not getting a consensus on the archer MP's... I'll take a look when I get the save, but I'm leaning towards keeping them. Especially if Sally is in the neighborhood. I'd rather use the axemen for offense and leave the archers on defense.
- If we get a chance for peace with any AIs that don't have OB with Alex, I'll take it.

Did someone say Sally was on our island? Do we need to take him out?

I have not looked at the save (I get nervous about opening the save when it is my turnset unless I'm going to actually play. I'm not sure if it is allowed under the SGOTM rules).

If it isn't then I've been in trouble for the last four games. :eek:


- If we get a chance for peace with any AIs that don't have OB with Alex, I'll take it.


Sally is the most likely AI to settle Alex's former island so we should stay at war with him for the time being.


Did someone say Sally was on our island? Do we need to take him out?

Sally's in the far west enjoying the delights of the jungle. I would be inclined to leave him alone there until after we get IW.

Yes, we should let him improve the lands around this city, we can't afford it anywat at the moment.
When the time comes, we may raze and rebuild it, or simply keep it, depending on the situation.

- Tech: Finish construction, CoL next, IW after. We need to expand sooner or later, and therefore CoL and IW have a high priority. But we need to build the courthouses first, we badly need the money. Without additional luxuries we can't make much use of cottages at cleared jungle anyway, our pop limit is simply to low.

- Foreign affairs: I still doubt that making peace with a single civ will do much for our WW. Toku maybe, because at his cities a lot of our brethen suicided. For saladins city, we should give him a chance to improve it, before we kill it. Alex: Ceterum censeo Corinthum esse delendam :-)

- Expansion: Did I mention I would like to resettle the silver Island mid-term? So with CoL coming in soon, we could already start a Settler :-)

- Expansion: Did I mention I would like to resettle the silver Island mid-term? So with CoL coming in soon, we could already start a Settler :-)

IIRC Karakorum will finish it's lib in a few turns and does not have anything useful to build afterwards, so we could start a settler there.

Are we planning on having a Great Person farm anywhere?

We've got to decide just what sort of an economy we are going to run, haven't we?

I know we've got a few cottages, and we are working the gold, but is this going to be enough?
Obviously we can't run anything that relies on religion for income. Gt Prophets would have worked well, but can still be some use for income if we settle them in cities (or have I got that wrong?)
Of course Gt Scientists will allow us to reduce the tech rate - but still keep up a reasonable research pace.

Can we afford the time to convert a city into a GP farm? I'm wondering whether the answer is going to be - we can't afford not to. I know things will look better once we have a bunch of courthouses, but still not brilliant. Converting a high-food city to a GP farm might make enough difference to keep up tech pace with the AI.

Nothing stops a domination push quite as quickly as finding your opponents have got lots of shiny new upgraded defenders.

If we find a site with 2 or 3 good food resources, then a Great Person farm would be a great idea. I wouldn't advocate converting anything into one though just for the sake of it, as we are not Philosophical or Pacifist.

Just to let you know that I will be away for a few days on business (which makes me sound more important than I really am). So if my turns come around soon, you'll need to skip me until I let you know I am back.

OK, I am halfway through my turnset, major events! Decided to take a pause for some team consultation.

More details later, but three things worth mentioning now:

1) Sally forth

turn 0 - decide not to burn any MP's (although I was moving an axeman to the city with the lone level 0 archer to disband him next turn).
IBT - Sally lands 2 chariots right next to Ning-tsai. Good thing we had a Keshik sitting in reserve that was within 1 turn. (Unlikely Sally would have defeated the axe and archer in Ning, but why tempt fate!)

So, based on this, I decided not to disband any units. Sally can go up and down our coast at will, I think we should hang on to our military. Besides, our exploring galley will be coming home soon (no more routes to the north), so we can move some axemen into attack roles.

2) Izz-she a wimp?

After turn 4, Izzy offers peace, I accept. Since she is on the eastern side of lush island, I figure it is safe. I'm pretty sure WW dropped in two cities (not 100% sure). Based on this, I think we take peace if any other offer it.

3) Where is the last place you'd expect Confusianism to be founded?

Confusianism is founded. You guessed it... by Alex in Corinth! :lol:

I would assume this changes our view on razing Corinth. I think a spammed religion with a holy city might be just the ticket. Also, Theocracy might be a nice civic for a later time. Oh, and by the way, it would appear Corinth has Iron (Alex build a grassland mine, although a barbie archer is about to disconnect it.) I think iron is another reason to keep Corinth, just in case our mainland does not have it.

Anyhow, our army is poised by Corinth. I almost went ahead and captured it, but decided to pause and make sure all of you are on board with the change in plan.

I still have the ball, I will finish my last 5 turns tomorrow evening. Between now and then, please let me know if you agree with keeping the Holy City of Corinth????

1) Sally forth

turn 0 - decide not to burn any MP's (although I was moving an axeman to the city with the lone level 0 archer to disband him next turn).
IBT - Sally lands 2 chariots right next to Ning-tsai. Good thing we had a Keshik sitting in reserve that was within 1 turn. (Unlikely Sally would have defeated the axe and archer in Ning, but why tempt fate!)

Phew! Perhaps we'll need to consider an expeditionary force against Sally if he keeps making a nuisance of himself.


3) Where is the last place you'd expect Confusianism to be founded?

Confusianism is founded. You guessed it... by Alex in Corinth! :lol:

I would assume this changes our view on razing Corinth. I think a spammed religion with a holy city might be just the ticket. Also, Theocracy might be a nice civic for a later time. Oh, and by the way, it would appear Corinth has Iron (Alex build a grassland mine, although a barbie archer is about to disconnect it.) I think iron is another reason to keep Corinth, just in case our mainland does not have it.

Absolutely.. whether or not Corinth has iron confucianism will do very nicely for happiness. :)

I am all for keeping Corinth.

I cannot look at the save, so I am not sure whether it is possible, but I would try to get COL from Alex for 10 turns of peace and then eliminate him.:p We could then research IW immediately.

Still for razing Corinth.

A shrine is almost never worth it, IMHO. In the late game you will make some money, that you could have had easier and earlier (when you need it) by simply settling the Great Prophet.

I will take ages for Corinth to offset the -8 or -10 gpt it will cost, if ever. A large hit at our economy in a moment we can't afford.

And don't forget, we will need to build tons of missionarys to make use of this religion.

Still for razing Corinth.

A shrine is almost never worth it, IMHO. In the late game you will make some money, that you could have had easier and earlier (when you need it) by simply settling the Great Prophet.

And don't forget, we will need to build tons of missionarys to make use of this religion.


It may surprise you once the shrine is built. Correct me if I'm wrong, but if we raze the founding city before a religion can spread, the religion is lost permanently. Cultural victory will be easier if we keep it.

I'd build a courthouse and market there ASAP - and who is to say our economy won't expand enough to support Corinth comfortably?

I have used to build many shrines in my old, religious days back :-)
And I still build them sometimes, but mostly I will settle the Great Prophets and rarely I will lightbulb them.

Did you ever try to settle an early GP (say, from Stonehenge)? I may surprise you, once it is settled ^^
I think a cultural victory is somewhat unprobable now, so this is not my concern anymore :-)

A shrine is almost never worth it, IMHO.

I must admit I wasn't really thinking about a shrine. I was thinking more about the happiness in our cities.


And don't forget, we will need to build tons of missionarys to make use of this religion.

From my point of view I was only thinking about spreading it to our cities. After the demise of Alex that will only be five at most. With luck it will spread to some of them naturally. At present I don't even see a need to adopt the religion.

EDIT: I agree that settling the GP is advantageous.

Any chance to find out, when the last Great Person was born for Alex?

There might be soon a second Great Prophet arriving form him, and he will use him to build a shrine. In that case keeping Corinth would be ok :-)

Any chance to find out, when the last Great Person was born for Alex?

A swift look at the eventlog reveals that Zoroaster was born in Athens in 155 AD. This probably means that Alex lightbulbed CoL.

I didn't realise that the AI was intelligent enough to lightbulb techs. :eek: Is this something new in 1.74 or have I just never noticed it before?

I cannot look at the save, so I am not sure whether it is possible, but I would try to get COL from Alex for 10 turns of peace and then eliminate him.:p We could then research IW immediately.

I think we need to have alphabet before we can do that. :p

Is there a serious chance that keeping Corinth, with Confucianism, can help us to improve our WW to the point where we can sort our whole economy out?
I find it difficult to believe that - at this stage of the game - Corinth will do that for us. Maybe it will eventually, but we need to be making an impact very soon. In the short term, Corinth will be a severe money drain, at a time when we can least afford it.

Unless anyone can present some convincing evidence, then I'm with the "Raze Corinth" crowd.

CoL is still quite a long way off, sadly. We're going to need to get there before we can start any serious progress towards domination (And I don't think there is any other candidate victory for us)

Wow, glad I asked! I thought this was an easy decision, but it looks like we are split.

If I'm interpreting correctly... The-Hawk, markh, and Pariah are in the "keep it" camp. drhirsch and AgedOne are in the "raze it" camp. Sam started in "keep it", not sure he is still there.

The "raze it" gang raises some good points. If we keep Corinth, we risk severly stunting our already stunted tech rate. In fact, it is possible that Corinth bankrupts us at our current military level. Corinth and Athens together might be even worse (although Athens seems to have some cottages and may break even).

However, Corinth is a big prize. If we capture Stonehenge, then we will get a shrine for free. Given Corinth has two food bonuses, we should be able to whip a monestary and maybe even a missionary or two before Cyrus pillages our fish and crabs. Once we get IW, the iron mine will make Corinth a decent production city. Remember, we are going for dom... at some point, we will have a bunch of cities on lush island. I think the shrine pays for itself in the long run. Given war weariness will be a major factor, the happy face from a religion is a big plus. And, don't underestimate the value of Theocracy for our later military.

Here is a third option we might consider: Maybe we should leave Corinth alone for a while. We pillage the Athens to give Alex something to do (but not the cottages! we want them!). Then we make peace (hopefully for a tech if he has Alpha). We tech to CoL, then take both Athens and Corinth. In other words, we delay the economic hit until we have the ability to build courthouses.

My issues with the third option: We are low on gold and teching at 20%, so it is going to take forever to get to CoL. Meanwhile, Alex will resettle the silver island. Not a huge problem since we have military there, but it means we are almost back to square one. This option is less risk, but sets us back a ton of turns.

If I were playing this myself, I would grab Corinth and Athens asap, then worry about getting my economy back to life. It will be a struggle, maybe a disaster, but I think a cautious approach simply means we lose to the other SGOTM teams. Of course, as an HOF player I am conditioned to take big risks, maybe this approach is too risky for SGOTM where we can't spin up another game if this one flushes down the tubes. :confused:

Side note: I was planning to follow Constr with IW. However, this dilemma shows we need to get CoL next. The fact that we are considering razing a city like Corinth shows we need to get courthouses before we can do any serious conquest.

Captain Mark.... I think this decision warrants more conversation, so I'd like to delay another 24 hours before I finish my turnset. This will allow another round of points and counter-points before we make a final decision.

Yes, all those HoF games does make one more of a risk-taker, because the next game awaits after every failure. But then again, why shouldn't we also "live free and die hard" in this game as well? There are no prizes for 5th place.

I hate the idea of razing holy cities, especially just for the sake of some short term economic difficulties.

By the way, I am still not here. Forget you saw me.

Sam started in "keep it", not sure he is still there.


For various reasons I'm still up although I'm off to sleep very shortly. I'm still in the 'keep it' camp. I know it's going to hit our income but I think it's worth it. Main reasons are:


Happiness. WW is bad and is likely to get worse. Our only other source of happiness currently is the silver (I think we can ignore the calendar resources for a long time). Certainly an option but it doesn't advance us in terms of establishing a presence on lush island. I still don't know whether it's in our interests to adopt the religion yet.
Possibility of iron by Corinth. My thinking here is that it won't help us to pillage Alex's copper if he has iron on tap. Equally it is possible that we don't have iron on our original island either in which case we need to acquire it.
Apart from granaries there's not much we can build in our cities at present due to the unit costs. The exception is a few cats with which to attack Athens. :hammer: Temples/Monasteries will give them something to do.


It is possible that we may need to run 10% research or even nil research for a while, although the money from Alex's cities should stave that off for a bit.This leads on the subject of our next tech.

We already have beakers towards IW whereas we have none towards CoL IIRC. I would therefore vote for IW next as CoL will take ages. Equally we can find an immediate use for IW on our island cutting down that wretched jungle and bulding cottages.

N.B. We may need some of the religious techs first to buld temples etc. if we haven't already 'learnt' them. However I think they're only a couple of turns now.

I wasn't firmly in the "Raze Corinth" camp. More like I was looking for some convincing evidence one way or t'other.
Having read the last few posts, I'm wavering even more now.

Iron. Yes, it might be our only reasonable chance. (Tho we could raze and rebuild)
Happiness. I'm seeing more benefit of getting all of our cities building happiness projects. Might give us an anti-WW boost sooner rather than later.

The other thing is The-Hawk's comments about takings risks.
I'm aware that one of my failings in CIV is not taking the correct risks. That's why I never get early victories. I'm probably leaning too much towards caution and pessimism in saying that the economy will stop dead if we take Corinth.

Perhaps we should take it and absorb the painful aftermath. Then we can start seeing the benefits.

For various reasons I'm still up although I'm off
We already have beakers towards IW whereas we have none towards CoL IIRC. I would therefore vote for IW next as CoL will take ages. Equally we can find an immediate use for IW on our island cutting down that wretched jungle and bulding cottages.


I don't see the benefits of IW. You need some population to work cottages, and our population is very limited. AFAIK we could get 2 spots where we can work a cottage, I think this is not enough to further delay CoL.

I don't see the benefits of IW. You need some population to work cottages, and our population is very limited. AFAIK we could get 2 spots where we can work a cottage, I think this is not enough to further delay CoL.

Seems to me that Turfan & Ning-hsia could benefit from from some jungle clearance. It also opens up swords which would be helpful in taking cities. My main problem with researching CoL is the sheer amount of time it will take. It may well be that taking and razing cities may be a better way of maintaining our income for the time being. It might also help in slowing down the AI's research.

However just to muddy the waters further I think there's also a case for Monarchy for happiness to raise our pop caps. One good reason our pop is limited is trying to absorb the WW within our existing caps. If we can get more citizens working cottages then that would help pay the maintenance and hopefully keep our science from falling too much.

Now that I think about it there might be a lot to be said for running a pillaging economy. :evil: A couple of keshiks pillaging the AIs cottages and resources would help our economy :gold: and slow the AI down. Toku would be a good first target. Since Cyrus is near he would also be a good target. Especially since he seems the most advanced of the AI.

Never tried that, but it sounds reasonable, especially for mongols :-)

OK, here we go:

Turn 0 (170 AD)


Switch wounded units off of galley, replace with healthy.
Send a Keshik to the south of silver island to scout.
Suicide the two workers on silver island.
Set research to 30%.
Decide to only suicide one archer. Decide it will be the non-promoted archer in Beshbalik. Send an axe towards Beshbalik so I can suicide the archer next turn.


IBT


Sally lands two chariots next to Ning-Tsai.
Alex sends a galley out with a settler, blocks our galleys from moving towards Corinth.


Turn 1 (185 AD)


Offload troops from galleys just in case Alex decides to attack with his galley.
Move our reserve Keshik (near Karakorum) to Ning-Tsai.
Move the axe heading for Beshbalik back to Turfan (Turfan could be reached by a Sally-Galley as well).
Move one of the chariots in Old Sarai north to act as a reserve in place of the Keshik.


IBT


Sally chariot dies attacking Keshik. The other chariot moves on tile and can pillage next turn.
Confusianism is founded in Corinth.


Turn 2 (200 AD)


Reload galley, move them off towards Corinth.
Kill 2nd chariot near Ning-Tsai with Keshik.
Ning-Tsai now has severe war weariness. Two unhappy faces and is starving. I can't whip the library being built, so I switch to Granary and whip it for the two unhappy citizens.
Move some units on silver island to prepare for Alex's invasion force.


IBT


Alex lands his massive invasion force (consisting of a settler and archer) right in the middle of five units on silver island. :rolleyes:


Turn 3 (215)


A Khesik on silver island gets the honor of providing Hawk his first Alex scalp of the game. :D
Suicide the newly captured settler (worker).
Ning-Tsai finished Granary, back to Library.


Turn 4 (230 AD)

Nothing

IBT


Izzy offers peace, I accept. It appears WW drops in two cities.


Turn 5 (245 AD)


Troops land near Corinth. Notice a grassland mine, assume it is iron.


IBT


Barb pillages Corinth's iron mine. I'm sure he meant well. :(


Turn 6 (260 AD)


Turfan Granary -> Library
Lose one axeman (70% odds) capturing Corinth. Get 64 gold. Hawk pauses to relish in the capture of an Alex city. :)
We also captured a worker in Corinth. I keep this one for later use (nothing for him to do at the moment).
Decide to leave the five remaining invaders in Corinth in case the lush island AI's also realize Corinth is a holy city. Send galleys back to silver island to pick up some axemen for a pillage force.
Move research to 40% (-6), construction in 9.


Turn 7 (275 AD)


Karakorum Library -> Settler (for silver island). I decide to leave the citizens on the cottages. Moving one to the pigs would speed production of the settler, but our priority is commerce.
A barb HA on Sally's mainland reveals 3 axes, a chariot, a spear, and 2 archers in Medina. And this isn't even his capital!


Turn 8 (290 AD)

Nada

Turn 9 (305 AD)


4 Axes heading towards Athens to pillage copper.
2 Keshiks left guarding silver island in case Alex lands another settler.
Turfan now has one unhappy citizen, but isn't starving.


Turn 10 (320 AD)


Corinth comes out of revolt. We are +1 gold at 30%! :)
Set research to 80%, construction in 2 turns. Athens, here we come!
Corinth begins to build a granary.


My thoughts on next turns:


The four axes are close to the copper. I think we should land on the hill and pillage the copper. If Alex burns a couple of troops attacking the axes, all the better.
If Alex does not come after the axes, I would not move them from the hill. No reason to put them at risk trying to pillage the horses. However, if Alex suicides a couple of units on our axes, we might go after the horses as well.
Whatever we do, don't pillage his cottages. We will need them immediately.
I decided not to follow Sam's clever ideas to use our Keshiks in Corinth as pillagers. Three reasons: I'm afraid an AI might be coming for Corinth, if they leave Corinth we need to pay for supply, and I'd hate to stumble into a spear and lose one. However, if things settle down and we don't see any attackers, we might want to come back to this idea. (On the other hand, we might need a couple of these units to help capture Athens.)
As soon as constr comes up, we should switch several cities to cats. Don't let the current builds finish, we want cats asap.
I was thinking we might want to clear Sally off his island. Razing his cities could provide some nice gold. Also, if his island is isolated and we clear him off, maybe the barbs settle their and help us towards dom. However, based on the number of units in Medina, I'm not so sure. He might be a tough nut to crack. Something to think about.
I would follow Corinth's Granary with a Monestary. In fact, I almost started building one first, but decided a granary was critical to allow us to take advantage of the food and whip. Once we have monestary, we can get confusianism back to our mainland and consider a religion switch.

Good solid turnset The-Hawk. :goodjob:



My thoughts on next turns:


The four axes are close to the copper. I think we should land on the hill and pillage the copper. If Alex burns a couple of troops attacking the axes, all the better.
If Alex does not come after the axes, I would not move them from the hill. No reason to put them at risk trying to pillage the horses. However, if Alex suicides a couple of units on our axes, we might go after the horses as well.
Whatever we do, don't pillage his cottages. We will need them immediately.
I decided not to follow Sam's clever ideas to use our Keshiks in Corinth as pillagers. Three reasons: I'm afraid an AI might be coming for Corinth, if they leave Corinth we need to pay for supply, and I'd hate to stumble into a spear and lose one. However, if things settle down and we don't see any attackers, we might want to come back to this idea. (On the other hand, we might need a couple of these units to help capture Athens.)
As soon as constr comes up, we should switch several cities to cats. Don't let the current builds finish, we want cats asap.
I was thinking we might want to clear Sally off his island. Razing his cities could provide some nice gold. Also, if his island is isolated and we clear him off, maybe the barbs settle their and help us towards dom. However, based on the number of units in Medina, I'm not so sure. He might be a tough nut to crack. Something to think about.
I would follow Corinth's Granary with a Monestary. In fact, I almost started building one first, but decided a granary was critical to allow us to take advantage of the food and whip. Once we have monestary, we can get confusianism back to our mainland and consider a religion switch.


I certainly agree on pillaging the copper. As far as pillaging the horses we'll have to see what forces Alex has in his city. I'm not sure the increased risk of losing/wounding axes is worth pillaging the horses. However hopefully Alex is building another settler. :rolleyes:

I didn't mean us to try a pillaging economy until after Alex was gone so I'm fine with your decision. Sally's power graph is less than ours so I don't think he can have too many other strong military units at present. Perhaps some of those forces are intended for another attack against us. :hmm: I'm in two minds about attacking Sally. It would be good to prevent annoying attacks so that we don't have to leave a decent proportion of our military for defence. OTOH there's the question of how much it might distract us. Would building more galleys to sink his settlers/attack forces be more advantageous in the short term? :dunno:

Monastery in Corinth sounds good to me. Whether or not we adopt a religion is another matter. I'm not sure that the benefits of adopting confucianism, as opposed to simply building temples/monasteries, outweigh the diplo hit we'll get from the other AI for having a different religion. Since we can't make use of any of the religious civics I would be against it for the time being.

It's interesting to note that we can get construction in 3 turns @ 50% for a total cost of 33 :gold: as compared to the 2 turns @ 80% for a total cost of 56 :gold:. I'm fine with carrying on at 80% but I thought I would mention the option. We need to decide what to research next. IW is 5 turns @ 50% whilst CoL is 30 turns @ 50%. The figures are 3 & 18 turns respectively @ 80% but I don't believe that research rate is sustainable at present. I think it really comes down to how feasible it is to absorb the maintenance.

Alright... so it's my turnset now? [Nervous gulp!]

I've just downloaded the 320AD save - thankyou, The-Hawk - will try to get going by tonight.

I've just downloaded the 320AD save - thankyou, The-Hawk - will try to get going by tonight.

Hold on... what are your plans for the turnset? The rest of the team haven't had a chance to comment yet. Amongst other things we need to decide which tech to research after construction. We've plenty of time to go yet so playng the turnset can wait until tomorrow night.

I notice from the results & progress page that more of the teams are getting to the 'meatier bit' of this game, and a couple of interesting things caught my eye.

We're not top of the scores, though we're not doing badly. The current top scorers are Gypsy Kings - and if you remember they were the ones who did something interestingly cultural quite early on. The other team just pipping us on score right now are Fifth Element, who had a much later cultural boost. I guess both of these teams went for a wonder, whi