Some more stuff got done. :goodjob:

Qin seems a little too quite, I agree. Did you check whether peace is possible with AIs ?

Roster

Sam - just played

drhirsch - UP (as I have not heard anything from you for a while I will be strict on the 24h "got it" rule. If you do not post until 9 p.m. today Harbourboy will be up

Harbourboy - on deck (will be away from 11th Sep - 4th Oct)
AgedOne
markh
The-Hawk
Pariah

Qin seems a little too quite, I agree. Did you check whether peace is possible with AIs ?


I checked at the start of my turnset but I forgot to check later. :blush:

Let me know if I need to play. I should be able to fit one more set in before I go away.

That's the reason I will handle the rule strictly this time. This ensures you can have another round before you leave. If drhirsch reports back tomorrow he can take it after you, but let's wait until 9pm.

I hope he's not building a ginormous invasion force. :eek:

I hate ginormous invasion forces. Hate gigundo ones as well. ;)

I agree we might not wait on maces to expand. Only way we are gonna finish this easily is to get a few cities on lush island producing military. Gonna suck if we need build lots of navy to fight off caravels, total waste of hammers. If we can get peaxe with Qin and Cyrus, then the long distance transport is a viable option.

I will up at all sorts of strange hours watching the Rugby World Cup so I should easily be able to fit my turns in.

So what are our short term objectives?

I will up at all sorts of strange hours watching the Rugby World Cup so I should easily be able to fit my turns in.

I suspect you may find it more enjoyable viewing than myself. ;) Although the argentines have shown that all is possible. :king:


So what are our short term objectives?


We need to get our forces from Old Sarai to Corinth before we can start doing something about Toku. Unforrtunately Qin's caravel to the north of silver island is making that awkward. I've put up a sign to show it's rough position.

A lot of the cities are configured for :gold: and growth rather than hammers, mainly to speed up research. Both Turfan and Corinth will reach their happy caps soon. Bear in mind that the happy cap for Corinth is higher than normal due to the units stationed there.

New Sarai grows next turn and the workers next to it can start on the silver mine in a couple of turns which should raise our happy caps.

So do I need to play or not?

So do I need to play or not?

drhirsch hasn't postd a 'got it' so go for it.

Righto, I will probably play during the South Africa v Samoa match.

Got it..............

It appears that Toku is massing his forces.

Yes.

159944

Done

Summary of turnset:
- We lost two (count 'em) galleys to Qin (he of the circumnavigation-powered caravel) :(
- Toku invaded Athens but luckily only with two swordsmen, so we fought them off for no losses or pillaging
- Toku has forces to burn and really should invade us
- Nobody wants peace

Here is your Session Turn Log from 1274 AD to 1340 AD:

Turn 269, 1274 AD: Got it
Turn 269, 1274 AD: The borders of Ning-hsia have expanded!
Turn 269, 1274 AD: The borders of New Sarai have expanded!

Turn 270, 1280 AD: 1280AD: Not much happens.
Turn 270, 1280 AD: Qin Shi Huang's Caravel (3.26) vs Temujin's Galley (2.00)
Turn 270, 1280 AD: Combat Odds: 95.9%
Turn 270, 1280 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 270, 1280 AD: Temujin's Galley is hit for 25 (75/100HP)
Turn 270, 1280 AD: Temujin's Galley is hit for 25 (50/100HP)
Turn 270, 1280 AD: Temujin's Galley is hit for 25 (25/100HP)
Turn 270, 1280 AD: Temujin's Galley is hit for 25 (0/100HP)
Turn 270, 1280 AD: Qin Shi Huang's Caravel has defeated Temujin's Galley!
Turn 270, 1280 AD: Isabella adopts Vassalage!
Turn 270, 1280 AD: Isabella adopts Serfdom!

Turn 274, 1304 AD: The borders of Karakorum have expanded!
Turn 274, 1304 AD: Leonardo da Vinci has been born in Madras!
Turn 274, 1304 AD: Qin Shi Huang is the first to circumnavigate the Globe!
Turn 274, 1304 AD: You have discovered Currency!

Turn 276, 1316 AD: Beshbalik will grow to size 3 on the next turn
Turn 276, 1316 AD: Tokugawa adopts Vassalage!
Turn 276, 1316 AD: Tokugawa adopts Serfdom!

Turn 277, 1322 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Athens!
Turn 277, 1322 AD: Temujin's Galley (2.40) vs Tokugawa's Galley (2.20)
Turn 277, 1322 AD: Combat Odds: 70.5%
Turn 277, 1322 AD: (Extra Combat: -20%)
Turn 277, 1322 AD: (Plot Defense: +10%)
Turn 277, 1322 AD: Temujin's Galley is hit for 19 (81/100HP)
Turn 277, 1322 AD: Temujin's Galley is hit for 19 (62/100HP)
Turn 277, 1322 AD: Temujin's Galley is hit for 19 (43/100HP)
Turn 277, 1322 AD: Tokugawa's Galley is hit for 20 (80/100HP)
Turn 277, 1322 AD: Temujin's Galley is hit for 19 (24/100HP)
Turn 277, 1322 AD: Tokugawa's Galley is hit for 20 (60/100HP)
Turn 277, 1322 AD: Temujin's Galley is hit for 19 (5/100HP)
Turn 277, 1322 AD: Temujin's Galley is hit for 19 (0/100HP)
Turn 277, 1322 AD: Tokugawa's Galley has defeated Temujin's Galley!
Turn 277, 1322 AD: Temujin's Galley (2.20) vs Tokugawa's Galley (1.32)
Turn 277, 1322 AD: Combat Odds: 96.4%
Turn 277, 1322 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 277, 1322 AD: (Plot Defense: +10%)
Turn 277, 1322 AD: Temujin's Galley is hit for 17 (83/100HP)
Turn 277, 1322 AD: Tokugawa's Galley is hit for 22 (38/100HP)
Turn 277, 1322 AD: Tokugawa's Galley is hit for 22 (16/100HP)
Turn 277, 1322 AD: Tokugawa's Galley is hit for 22 (0/100HP)
Turn 277, 1322 AD: Temujin's Galley has defeated Tokugawa's Galley!
Turn 277, 1322 AD: Temujin's Axeman (6.00) vs Tokugawa's Swordsman (3.87)
Turn 277, 1322 AD: Combat Odds: 91.0%
Turn 277, 1322 AD: (Extra Combat: -20%)
Turn 277, 1322 AD: (Extra Combat: +20%)
Turn 277, 1322 AD: (Combat: -75%)
Turn 277, 1322 AD: Temujin's Axeman is hit for 16 (84/100HP)
Turn 277, 1322 AD: Temujin's Axeman is hit for 16 (68/100HP)
Turn 277, 1322 AD: Temujin's Axeman is hit for 16 (52/100HP)
Turn 277, 1322 AD: Temujin's Axeman is hit for 16 (36/100HP)
Turn 277, 1322 AD: Tokugawa's Swordsman is hit for 24 (76/100HP)
Turn 277, 1322 AD: Temujin's Axeman is hit for 16 (20/100HP)
Turn 277, 1322 AD: Tokugawa's Swordsman is hit for 24 (52/100HP)
Turn 277, 1322 AD: Tokugawa's Swordsman is hit for 24 (28/100HP)
Turn 277, 1322 AD: Tokugawa's Swordsman is hit for 24 (4/100HP)
Turn 277, 1322 AD: Tokugawa's Swordsman is hit for 24 (0/100HP)
Turn 277, 1322 AD: Temujin's Axeman has defeated Tokugawa's Swordsman!
Turn 277, 1322 AD: Beshbalik has grown to size 3
Turn 277, 1322 AD: New Sarai has grown to size 2
Turn 277, 1322 AD: Qin Shi Huang's Caravel (2.88) vs Temujin's Galley (2.20)
Turn 277, 1322 AD: Combat Odds: 66.1%
Turn 277, 1322 AD: (Extra Combat: -20%)
Turn 277, 1322 AD: (Plot Defense: +10%)
Turn 277, 1322 AD: Temujin's Galley is hit for 24 (76/100HP)
Turn 277, 1322 AD: Temujin's Galley is hit for 24 (52/100HP)
Turn 277, 1322 AD: Temujin's Galley is hit for 24 (28/100HP)
Turn 277, 1322 AD: Temujin's Galley is hit for 24 (4/100HP)
Turn 277, 1322 AD: Temujin's Galley is hit for 24 (0/100HP)
Turn 277, 1322 AD: Qin Shi Huang's Caravel has defeated Temujin's Galley!
Turn 277, 1322 AD: Tokugawa's Swordsman (6.60) vs Temujin's Axeman (11.00)
Turn 277, 1322 AD: Combat Odds: 3.8%
Turn 277, 1322 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 277, 1322 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 277, 1322 AD: (Plot Defense: +40%)
Turn 277, 1322 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 277, 1322 AD: (City Attack: -30%)
Turn 277, 1322 AD: (Combat: +75%)
Turn 277, 1322 AD: Tokugawa's Swordsman is hit for 25 (75/100HP)
Turn 277, 1322 AD: Tokugawa's Swordsman is hit for 25 (50/100HP)
Turn 277, 1322 AD: Temujin's Axeman is hit for 15 (85/100HP)
Turn 277, 1322 AD: Temujin's Axeman is hit for 15 (70/100HP)
Turn 277, 1322 AD: Tokugawa's Swordsman is hit for 25 (25/100HP)
Turn 277, 1322 AD: Tokugawa's Swordsman is hit for 25 (0/100HP)
Turn 277, 1322 AD: Temujin's Axeman has defeated Tokugawa's Swordsman!
Turn 277, 1322 AD: Sinan has been born in Mecca!
Turn 277, 1322 AD: Cyrus adopts Bureaucracy!

Turn 278, 1328 AD: The enemy has been spotted near New Sarai!
Turn 278, 1328 AD: Karakorum will grow to size 6 on the next turn
Turn 278, 1328 AD: Athens has grown to size 4
Turn 278, 1328 AD: Mo Tzu has been born in Tokyo!
Turn 278, 1328 AD: Saladin has completed Angkor Wat!
Turn 278, 1328 AD: Yayoi has been captured by the Persian Empire!!!
Turn 278, 1328 AD: Yayoi has been razed by the Persian Empire!!!

Turn 279, 1334 AD: The enemy has been spotted near New Sarai!
Turn 279, 1334 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Corinth!
Turn 279, 1334 AD: You have plundered 4? from the Farm!
Turn 279, 1334 AD: You have discovered Machinery!
Turn 279, 1334 AD: Karakorum has grown to size 6
Turn 279, 1334 AD: Old Sarai will grow to size 3 on the next turn
Turn 279, 1334 AD: Asoka has completed The Sistine Chapel!

Turn 280, 1340 AD: The enemy has been spotted near New Sarai!
Turn 280, 1340 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Athens!

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm5/Geezers_SG005_AD1340_01.Civ4SavedGame

I don't think this game is going very well. It looks far too much like one of my single player games, which is not a good thing. I hope you guys can pull off some sort of miracle while I am away! Maybe Samoa can do better than Temujin......

Looks like you did fine. Defense of Athens was critical. I agree we seem to be slipping behind the AI's, but maybe it is not insurmountable. Remember, AIs fight like crap, so if we get a decent force of maces on lush island, Togu will run through his numbers very quickly. The bad news is Cyrus and Asoka have maces already. If they decide to concentrate on whacking us, we will die quickly.

I think the loss of the galleys is a sign of things to come. We are not going to be able to get control of the seas. I think our strategy should be:


research to maces asap
concentrate on building them in Corinth and Athens
keep trying to get a few units past the caravels from main island (this may part may not be pretty)
grab a couple of cities on lush island from Togu
switch our original island over to commerce and research (minimize hammers), use our lush island cities to build maces


My recommendations for the next turnset.


I think we need to research CS next (not Compass).
Togu is about to land a settler on silver island, with a triple promoted LB. With that LB we might never get him off. If the barb sword suicides on the LB and wounds it, we might want to try to take it with the chariot. Otherwise, we'll need to build a couple of units in New Sarai to capture the city.
I would not leave the galley protecting the fish. If a caravel comes along, the galley will simply get killed and we'll eventually lose the fish anyhow. I think our galleys need to concentrate on trying to bring forces over. He should head over to our original island and get some troops (and hope the caravels have moved on).
Another military unit in Athens would be good... next time, the AI might bring a better invasion force.
Beshbalik: I would work the town, not the forest. 4 gold is much more impt than 1 hammer.
When Old Sarai grows, work the iron. It will stagnate, but added population isn't buying us much.
New Sarai: I would work the stone. It will stagnate growth but speed up the LH. That farm is pretty unproductive.
When Turfan finishes the spear, galley next. We need to get units over to lush island asap.


/EDIT: One other thought... our GP is pretty close. At this point, I think we are better off using him as a super specialist. He will want to lightbulb Theology. No point in that (the key AI's already have it, so no trade value). I think the shrine is not so helpful now. Corinth and Athens need to be building military, not missionaries. Any thoughts on this???

Y'ouch! Caravel horror! Things are certainly hotting up - or would be if the AI decided to go for us.
Well done, Harbourboy, for getting us through a worrying turnset. Don't get too despondent. We'll ensure that we are still here on your return :)

I guess that I'm up next, and I'm evidently going to be facing a pretty trying time. I'm looking carefully at your comments, Hawk. I'll not be playing immediately. Give us all time to input more comments before I do.

I like your comment about AI fighting like crap, Hawk. Very true. I've just been playing a sp game from a hopeless position where I should have been pounded into dust by the AI. Due to numerous mystifying decisions by the AI generals, I survived for scores of turns and gained loads of promotions into the bargain! Some of the main enemy moves that I'll be looking out for in the near future are: attacking across rivers when they didn't need to, moving to unguarded terrain when they didn't need to, and the favourite manoeuvre - failing to attack when their first attacks have left wounded defenders in the city.

Let's hope for plenty of that from Toku! :D

[- We lost two (count 'em) galleys to Qin (he of the circumnavigation-powered caravel) :(

Not only that but we lost another galley to Toku so we only have one galley left. :(

I'm not so sure about dropping Compass for CS. Compass & Optics is 23 turns. CS is 33 turns. All this is at the current research rate. Our seas have been a happy hunting ground for Qin so I can't see him upping sticks in the near future. If anything he'll be reinforced by another caravel.

As far as Toku's landing party goes I would be inclined to move both the chariot and spear up towards his likely land point to make sure he dies. I assume he'll head for the iron but maybe he still thinks he can resettle his city by the silver?

Oh yeah, the other point to add is that Qin would not accept peace for all the tea in China.

I like your comment about AI fighting like crap, Hawk. Very true. I've just been playing a sp game from a hopeless position where I should have been pounded into dust by the AI..

True enough, but AIs also have a knack for outnumbering you to the point where lousy throwaway tactics can still win the day. I don't know how they build so many units so quickly. For now, all we can do is dig in with our best defenders, and keep a strong attack stack in Corinth to pick off ill-positioned enemies 1 or 2 tiles away.

Nice turns, HB. :goodjob:

We should keep an eye on Toku. Samurais are pretty unpleasant, so we should train some crossbowmen in advance.

I hope some AI wars break out soon. Anyway it seems we will have a pretty hard time going for war. I still feel we need to get some scientists to lightbulb a few techs. We are getting behind quite considerably. The other way to get techs is to hurt one really bad, but I can't see this happening some time soon and especially Cyrus is heading away.

Right. I could play my turn tonight (in about 2 hours time) or I could wait until tomorrow evening.
I can see that my main plan would be to defend Corinth grimly while trying to maintain research. Anyone who'll make peace, we gratefully accept - but that's really not going to be on offer, is it.
Not sure where we stand on switching research from compass to CS. I generally don't like switching a research once started, but I don't have strong feelings about it one way or t'other. Anyone else got thoughts?
A bit of mm around the cities - oh! - and don't lose the last galley!

Right. I could play my turn tonight (in about 2 hours time) or I could wait until tomorrow evening.


Don't forget to do something about Toku's landing party. I made my suggestion about that in my earlier post. Most team members seem to have commented but whether or not to play tonight I'll leave up to you.

OK. Got it. I'm playing now.

Summary
We dealt with Toku’s landing party on silver isle.
It’s all been very quiet, and we haven’t lost any units.
We’ve built a few military, galleys and a forge.
Our one pre-existing galley played cat&mouse with the caravels but survived!
I’m a bit unsure about some of the builds I’ve started.

The save is here: http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm5/Geezers_SG005_AD1400_01.Civ4SavedGame

T280 (1340)
Galley heads for home island.
MM Beshbalik
MM New Sarai.
Prepared to receive boarders on silver island.

IBT
Toku’s galley moved up coast west of Athens.
We learned Literature from barbs!
Toku completed the Kashi Vishwanath.

T281 (1346)
We moved troops to Old Sarai.
MM Old Sarai to work iron.
NB. No-one will consider peace – except Toku and he wants Corinth!

IBT
Toku’s galley reaches the coast by the iron but thinks twice about unloading.
Qin’s caravel appears again to menace our galley – currently heading for homeland along the north coast of Athens-isle. Another Qin caravel is to the south and heading north.

T282 (1352)
There’s no safe place for our galley between the two caravels. Just hope we’re not noticed.

IBT
Our galley is not attacked, but one caravel now stands beside it.
Toku’s settler party lands on silver isle and is attacked by the barb swordsman, who loses but knocks the LB down to 4.1/6.

T283 (1358)
We strike with our chariot at 55% odds – and win!!! That’s a free worker, too.
Corinth completes swordsman build and starts a crossbow.
Turfan completes spearman build and starts a galley.
Our galley tries to run back east.

IBT
We learned Compass.
An explorer walks right up to our forces outside Corinth.

T284 (1364)
We use the explorer as training material for our new swordsman.
Our galley finds temporary safety.
We start researching Optics (16 turns @ 40%).

IBT
Islam founded in Pasagardae.

T285 (1370)
Nothing much.

IBT
Cyrus also has a caravel marauding around near Old Sarai.

T286 (1376)
Whipped the forge in Karakorum, just before growth. Will re-grow next turn.

IBT
Toku’s galley destroys a fishing boat.

T287 (1382)
Following the forge in Karakorum, started a galley.

T288 (1388)
Completed a Crossbow in Corinth and started another.
Whipped a Keshik in Ning-Hsia.

IBT
We’re allowing all our fishing boats to be pillaged, but we just don’t have any protective fleet.

T289 (1394)
Old Sarai produced a galley. Started another.
Loaded it with sword and cat, and will attempt to sneak them across to Corinth.
Athens completed cat. Started a crossbow.
Ning Hsia completed Keshik. Started a forge.

T290 (1400)
Galley produced in Turfan. Started forge.
Lighthouse completed in New Sarai. Started a library (?)

Session Turn Log

Turn 280, 1340 AD: Tokugawa has completed The Kashi Vishwanath!
Turn 280, 1340 AD: You have discovered Literature!

Turn 281, 1346 AD: Euclid has been born in Madrid!

Turn 283, 1358 AD: Temujin's Chariot (4.00) vs Tokugawa's Longbowman (4.08)
Turn 283, 1358 AD: Combat Odds: 55.9%
Turn 283, 1358 AD: Temujin's Chariot is hit for 22 (78/100HP)
Turn 283, 1358 AD: Tokugawa's Longbowman is hit for 17 (51/100HP)
Turn 283, 1358 AD: Tokugawa's Longbowman is hit for 17 (34/100HP)
Turn 283, 1358 AD: Tokugawa's Longbowman is hit for 17 (17/100HP)
Turn 283, 1358 AD: Tokugawa's Longbowman is hit for 17 (0/100HP)
Turn 283, 1358 AD: Temujin's Chariot has defeated Tokugawa's Longbowman!
Turn 283, 1358 AD: You have discovered Compass!

Turn 284, 1364 AD: Temujin's Swordsman (6.60) vs Asoka's Explorer (4.00)
Turn 284, 1364 AD: Combat Odds: 96.0%
Turn 284, 1364 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 284, 1364 AD: Asoka's Explorer is hit for 25 (75/100HP)
Turn 284, 1364 AD: Temujin's Swordsman is hit for 15 (85/100HP)
Turn 284, 1364 AD: Asoka's Explorer is hit for 25 (50/100HP)
Turn 284, 1364 AD: Asoka's Explorer is hit for 25 (25/100HP)
Turn 284, 1364 AD: Asoka's Explorer is hit for 25 (0/100HP)
Turn 284, 1364 AD: Temujin's Swordsman has defeated Asoka's Explorer!
Turn 284, 1364 AD: Isabella adopts Bureaucracy!
Turn 284, 1364 AD: Islam has been founded in Pasargadae!

Turn 286, 1376 AD: Karakorum has grown to size 6

Turn 287, 1382 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Old Sarai!
Turn 287, 1382 AD: Ning-hsia will grow to size 6 on the next turn

Turn 288, 1388 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Corinth!
Turn 288, 1388 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Beshbalik!
Turn 288, 1388 AD: Beshbalik has grown to size 4
Turn 288, 1388 AD: Ning-hsia has grown to size 5
Turn 288, 1388 AD: New Sarai will grow to size 3 on the next turn
Turn 288, 1388 AD: A Fishing Boats has been destroyed by a marauding Japanese Galley!

Turn 289, 1394 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Corinth!
Turn 289, 1394 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Old Sarai!
Turn 289, 1394 AD: New Sarai has grown to size 3

Turn 290, 1400 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Athens!
Turn 290, 1400 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Turfan!

Good set ! :goodjob:

I think it is right to go for optics. We need some escorts for our galleys to be able to stay connected with our cities. CS will get cheaper along the way.

I noticed that Toku settled another 2 or 3 cities. We need to do something about this.

I will have a look at the game tonight, but I will not play today, so I let everybody have a look and comment before starting to play.

Nice to see that we've tripled our galleys AgedOne. :goodjob:

Thanks to the loss of our fishing grounds both Corinth & Turfan are starving. I would :whipped: Corinth for the Xbow. If we switch Turfan to a keshik or sword then we can :whipped: it next turn. Then we can start a forge there. Alternatively we can have it contribute another 6 :science: by running research? The lib in New Sarai is definitely :smoke:. Let's start a courthouse there as it's costing 8 :gold: at present.

I think we should move that HA out of Toku's lands. Together with some of the forces from Corinth we can probably take out Toku's new cities. Alternatively perhaps the HA can see if Toku has rebuilt his gold mine for us to pillage again?

I can only see one caravel (Qin) now. Have all the others gone elsewhere?

How on earth did Sally manage to colonise that land to the NE of Old Sarai? :confused:

EDIT: We seem to be a bit short on cats in Corinth. I think I would inclined to :whipped: Athens next turn and start on another cat. That cat on the copper by Athens should also be transported across to Corinth as well.

The lib in New Sarai is definitely :smoke:. Let's start a courthouse there as it's costing 8 :gold: at present.
Yes. I think my head was getting a bit wrecked at the end of a long day at work followed by my session. At least it hasn't actually started building yet and can be switched at no loss.

I can only see one caravel (Qin) now. Have all the others gone elsewhere?
I think I saw both Qin's second caravel, and Cyrus' one head off. I seem to recall they both headed westwards.

change New Sarai to a courthouse
change Turfan to a lighthouse
mm for more gold -> optics in 6 now and we have no deficit any more at 40%

IBT : nothing

1) 1406AD : we get our prophet in Athens
mm for even more gold and we at +2gpt now

IBT : a Persian caravel appears west of Athens

Originally I thought of getting the prophet over to Corinth to settle him there, but it will be risky as the galley will have to stay at sea for a turn.

2) 1412AD : just moving some galleys

IBT : Beshbalik : cat -> cat

Cyrus' galley disappears NE. There are two barb galles in his North. Maybe those distracted him.

3) 1418AD : just some mm

IBT : we get optics -> civil service (22 turns)

4) 1424AD : load the prophet on a galley, should be safe in the IBT

attack Shimonoseki with a Keshik at 76% odds. The Keshik retreats.
Move the sword, axe and catapult to this weakly defended city

Make a caravel priority in Karakorum

IBT : Toku moves out an axe, longbow and settler from Kagoshima

5) 1430AD : prophet is unloaded at Corinth

IBT : nothing

6) 1436AD : settle the prophet in Corinth

our sword, axe and cat close in on Shimonoseki

whip a caravel in Karakorum

IBT : a loaded Asoka galley appears N of Corinth, (a longbow and a settler)

Corinth : crossbow -> catapult
Karakorum : caravel -> Keshik

7) 1442AD : axe kills the defending axe in Shimonoseki and we raze the city for 39 gold

sell bananas to Saladin for 3gpt

This enables us to research at 50% at -5gpt, 85 in the kitty and civil service in 13

Qin and Cyrus move their caravels towards our caravel that just left Karakorum

IBT : Turfan : lighthouse -> caravel

8) 1448AD : our sneaking galley carrying a sword and a cat unloads it's freight at Corinth

IBT : Qin's caravel sinks ours :(

trade stone for sugar to Saladin

9) 1454AD : not much

IBT : Athens : crossbowman -> caravel

10) 1460AD : just moving galleys

For the next player :

Ning Hsia can whip the forge next turn. I put together a small stack East of Corinth. There must be a settler, axe and longbow somewhere South of them.
We are at 50% research at -3gpt and CS in 9, so research is getting better.

Folks, I'm going to be out of pocket through the weekend. I'd better skip this cycle.

I am still concerned we are fighting a loosing battle of the seas. For every caravel we build, Cyrus and Qin will build 3-4 between them. I'd rather spend those hammers on units and galleys to carry them. We will lose a few, but I don't think sacrificing a couple of caravels will prevent that. Once we establish more production on lush island, we convert the original island to commerce. (PS. I do not have a real strong opinion on this, just a gut feel... as always, I defer to the consensus of the team.)

What about the FP ? I think we should start it soon. In last games we tended to forget this thing. Corinth could build it in about 15 turns if mmed for hammers. Any thoughts ?

Roster

Sam - on deck
drhirsch (automatically skipped until he reports back)
Harbourboy (away from 11th Sep - 4th Oct)
AgedOne
markh - just played
The-Hawk - (away from 14th Sep - 16th Sep)
Pariah - UP

What about the FP ? I think we should start it soon. In last games we tended to forget this thing. Corinth could build it in about 15 turns if mmed for hammers. Any thoughts ?


I fully understand your point about overlooking the FP in the past. However surely we need to start seeing if we can do something about the AI as well? Do you think it's realistic to start thinking about taking and keeping some of Toku's cities? If not then I would prefer to keep building units until it is realistic.

The-Hawk has a good point about the problems with naval domination. The reason that it is a problem is the fact that we still need to transfer troops from the homeland. We really need to have enough cities to do this on the mainland. The main question is whether we found new cities or take them from the AI. If we are going to take them then we need sufficient forces first.

Perhaps we should also see about getting those workers from silver island back on the home island to start clearing out the jungle so that we can found additional cities to work the grasslands.

It is somewhat depressing to realise that it is 1460 AD, several of the AI have Civil Service, although not necessarily maces, and we have precisely one city on the lush island. :cry:

Sometimes the AIs have civil service long before they get machinery, so maces can appear a little later.

The FP will enable us to settle or take some cities on lush island without killing our research. It is not so welcome in the shortterm to take Corinth out of unit production now, but I think the longterm gain outweighs that. Corinth can build it relatively fast. IIRC it was 13 turns mming Corinth for hammers. With whipping I think we could get it done during the next turnset. If it times perfectly we can finish the FP with the research of CS, so Corinth can start building maces immediately. It is our best production city at the moment and IMO the timing for the FP now is the best one. After CS is done we will want loads of units.

I thought of keeping Shimonoseki, but it was too near to Phoenician where Toku has 8 or 9 units, so I razed it. We should build some roads around Corinth towards possible city sites, so shuffling units can be done quickly. Definitely we should keep Toku busy razing his newly founded cities, so he keeps building settlers and defenders. Once we have civil service we should upgrade our axes and swords. We have some nicely promoted ones. Put together a stack and go for Phoenician first. He will have Samurais soon and this could get ugly.

The FP will enable us to settle or take some cities on lush island without killing our research. It is not so welcome in the shortterm to take Corinth out of unit production now, but I think the longterm gain outweighs that.

Good point about the research. On balance I think you're correct to go for the FP.


I thought of keeping Shimonoseki, but it was too near to Phoenician where Toku has 8 or 9 units, so I razed it. We should build some roads around Corinth towards possible city sites, so shuffling units can be done quickly. Definitely we should keep Toku busy razing his newly founded cities, so he keeps building settlers and defenders. Once we have civil service we should upgrade our axes and swords. We have some nicely promoted ones. Put together a stack and go for Phoenician first. He will have Samurais soon and this could get ugly.

I'm sorry if you thought I was criticising the decision to raze Shimonoseki, which I wasn't, although I admit my comments may give that impression. :blush: It was more that it reminded me that we were still quite light on cities on lush island.

OK guys, I just got the save. Who thinks I should prioritize caravels or galleys this turn cycle? Can we maintain our position on the mainland with just our existing forces?

I'm sorry if you thought I was criticising the decision to raze Shimonoseki, which I wasn't, although I admit my comments may give that impression. :blush: It was more that it reminded me that we were still quite light on cities on lush island.

Oh, I did not took your comment as criticism. I thought of it as a normal question. I just wanted to say that I was thinking the same way as you. I really sat there for a few minutes thinking whether to raze that city or not, but I thought we want CS fastest possible and with keeping Shimonoseki we would have had another big hit on our economy. Maintenance would have been 11 or 12 at least I guess.

OK guys, I just got the save. Who thinks I should prioritize caravels or galleys this turn cycle? Can we maintain our position on the mainland with just our existing forces?

Maybe we do not need as many caravels as I ordered. I think 1 or 2 would be nice to cover our galleys.

If nothing dramatically happens the units on lush island should be enough at the moment. As I mentioned I would seriously consider to build the FP in Corinth while completing Civil Service.

Please do not forget to whip the forge in Ning Hsia next turn.

@Pariah


I put together a small stack East of Corinth. There must be a settler, axe and longbow somewhere South of them.

Don't forget to track this lot down.

I would like to add my vote to the idea of building our FP in Corinth. We've just got to move our productive area across from our homeland onto Lush Continent. An FP, followed by another couple of cities - linked up by roads to Corinth - looks like the start. Just hope we can get this under way before the Samurai begin striking!

I would concentrate on galleys, with just 2 or 3 caravels (in total) to help guard them.

We've got to get beyond the point where we fear a massive attack from the AI, and get there fast! I just don't know if we can do it quick enough. But surely that's the situation we must set our sights on: a power base on Lush Continent, and Maces.

Right - so my aims are:

rush completion of a forge in Ning-hsia;
start building Forbidden Palace in Corinth;
track down & kill enemy units and settler(s) in that area;
build a few galleys, plus 2 caravels for protection.

Right - so my aims are:

rush completion of a forge in Ning-hsia;
start building Forbidden Palace in Corinth;
track down & kill enemy units and settler(s) in that area;
build a few galleys, plus 2 caravels for protection.

Sounds good. Have fun !

Have you had a chance to play yet Pariah?

Start (1460):
*Moved Ning-hsia citizen from cottage to copper mine, hoping to reduce penalty for :whipped: forge.

IBT:
*Barbarian axeman approaches Yokohama.
*Largest civilizations listing: Cyrus 1st, Isabella 2nd, Tokugawa 3rd... Temujin 7th.
*Indian galley with settler & longbowman north of Athens Island.

Turn 1 (1466):
*Keshik on home island promoted C1. Sentry on hill.
*Lushland main stack - wounded axeman back to Corinth. Rest 1W from forest hill.
*Catapult in Beshbalik promoted barrage 1. Move to Old Sarai.
*Galley move to Old Sarai.
*Old Sarai 3 units promoted, fortified.
*2 galleys off Athens Island move to intercept Indian galley.

IBT:
*Persian galley appears N of Corinth, with maceman & horse archer.

Turn 2 (1472):
*Catapult finished in Corinth, both catapults there promoted barrage 1. City growth stagnant, so choose to build lighthouse next (8 turns).
*Catapult in main stack also promoted barrage 1. Stack move NE.
*Both crossbowmen in Corinth promoted CG1, fortify.
*Corinth swordsman promoted shock, fortify.
*New stack formed in Corinth: 2 catapults, keshik & CR3 axeman. Move 2 SE towards Yokohama.
*Silver Island workers: 1 building farm S of New Sarai, 1 moved onto iron tile to build road.
*Keshik & catapult in Old Sarai board galley, head for Silver Island.
*Attack Indian galley: enemy destroyed, 1 of our galleys lost. Remaining galley damaged 1.7/2. I consider the exchange worthwhile, to prevent the Indians founding a new city.
*Injured axeman back in Corinth.

IBT:
*Persian horse archer & maceman land in forest NE of Corinth.

Turn 3 (1478):
*New stack moves SE again.
*Main stack moves back W towards Corinth, in case they are needed to fight Persians. Given the enemy's 50% defence bonus in forest, did not attack from city this turn.
*Galley fortified til healled.
*Civil Service in 5 turns, -2 gpt.

IBT:
*Japanese C2 galley with longbowman & settler appears, S of Athens Island.
*Barbarian galleys proliferate, but do not engage any enemy ships. :mad:
*Persian units near Corinth separate.

Turn 4 (1484):
*Move galley near Athens S to intercept Japanese galley.
*Worker near Turfan W to mine hill.
*Worker 2S of New Sarai finishes road, now building cottage.
*Keshik & catapult land on north tip of Silver Island, for safety.
*Main stack continues back towards Corinth.

IBT:
*Persian horse archer emerges from forest and pillages Corinth iron mine. Maceman moves onto mine hill.
*Barbarian axeman finishes pillaging improvements around Yokohama.

Turn 5 (1490):
*Main stack moves onto cottage S of mine hill. Combat odds against Persian maceman are 1%, exchange may be very costly while enemy has high ground. I feel stupid for not putting a Corinth defender on the mine hill first...
*Corinth swordsman & C3 axeman attack and destroy Persian horse archer. Swordsman damaged 4.8/6, 8/5 XPs. Both units safely returned to city.
*Keshik & catapult back aboard galley, move E & SE. Athens galley moves to same tile. Now may have a better chance against Japanese galley.
*Silver Island chariot promoted C1. Move worker onto same tile.
*Corinth lighthouse in 6 turns, with iron mine gone. Borders expand, can now see all land to S coast.
*Cost of :whipped: forge in Ning-hsia still 2 pop. Unwilling to make that sacrifice.

IBT:
*Persian maceman destroys mine on hill.
*Japanese galley 2W.

Turn 6 (1496):
*Discover Feudalism!:) Change civics to adopt Bureaucracy.
*Discover Civil Service. Stick with Slavery for rush completions. Researching Guilds next (24 turns, +2 gpt).
*Catapult complete in Beshbalik, promoted drill 1. Next build: maceman.
*1 worker boards galey at Silver Island. Both galleys 2E; keshik & catapult land on Athens Island.
*Corinth swordsman promoted C2.
*New stack now 1NE of Yokohama.
*Main stack moves onto iron tile.

IBT:
*Barbarian swordsman moves next to Kaifeng.
*Persian maceman holds position on hill, destroys road.

Turn 7 (1502):
*2 galleys SE around Athens Island. Keshik & catapult across land to E.
*New stack catapults commence bombardment of Yokohama. Defences down to 14%.
*Unsure whether to sacrifice main stack units attacking that annoying Persian maceman. :blush: Split main stack: CG1 catapult into Corinth, CR2/C2 axeman joins units in field. Stack this with CR1 catapult & CR2 swordsman, send this trio towards Yokohama. Move swordsman out of Corinth. Now have 2 swordsmen & 1 axeman fortified on iron tile.
*Change production in Beshbalik to longbowman (15 turns).

IBT:
*Persian maceman attacks our stack on iron tile. 1 swordsman lost; enemy unit damaged 1.8/6.
*Japanese galley reaches Silver Island; longbowman & settler land on ruins of Delphi.

Turn 8 (1508):
*Swordman & axeman attack Persian maceman. Enemy destroyed (at last!); axeman damaged 2.9/5, 11/17 XPs.
*Yokohama defences reduced to 8%.
*Separate 2 galleys. Drill 1 catapult reboards galley, move 2W back toward Silver Island, as we have new enemies there.
*Other galley, with worker, continues E & NE. Keshik boards.
*Chariot retreats to New Sarai.
*Move worker to jungle FW hill 2NW of Ning-hsia.
*:whipped: forge in Ning-hsia, as it only costs 1 pop, now. Still more happy citizens than unhappy! Next build: longbowman.

IBT:
*New Japanese city, Matsuyama, founded on ruins of Delphi in N of Silver Island.
*Japanese galley back E towards Athens.

Turn 9 (1514):
*Athens completes caravel. Next build: maceman.
*Caravel sinks Japanese galley; damaged 1.0/3, 2/2 XPs.
*Keshik & worker unload in Corinth.
*Axeman & swordsman return to iron tile, fortify.
*Galley returns to Silver Island. Unload catapult on ruins of Sparta. Chariot moving to join it.
*Worker building road on cottage W of Karakorum.
*Yokohama defences reduced to 2%.

IBT:
*Indian horse archer appears far NE of Corinth, outside border.

Turn 10 (1520):
*Caravel finished in Turfan. Next build: galley. Caravel moved 2N, 1 NE.
*Worker building windmill on jungle FW hill near Ning-hsia.
*Athens caravel promoted drill 1. Fortified in city til healed.
*Worker at Corinth begins rebuilding iron mine.
*Catapult & chariot move into forest E of Matsuyama.
*Yokohama defences down to 0%. Axe, catapult & sword stack almost there; Keshik moving from Corinth to join Yokohama attack.

Game saved.

The new save has been uploaded. Do you guys think I'm going overboard on these turnset summaries?

The new save has been uploaded. Do you guys think I'm going overboard on these turnset summaries?

If you're happy to write them then I'm happy to read them. :) In the end the aim is for the report to mention the main events that happened together with reasons, where necessary, of why certain actions were taken.

I must admit I only normally tend to mention selected worker actions where I think they are relevant. If you look through the thread then you'll see that everyone has different styles of writing up their turnsets. I will often include one or two pics where I think it will complement the report.

Looks like you had lots of action to keep you occupied Pariah. :D I presume the idea of the LBs on the home island is to free up the existing units?

The first thought that occurs to me is whether we want to keep Yokohama? I would say no as it's too far from Corinth to be easily reinforced whilst being very near to Toku. I think we would do better to settle a new city to the SE of Corinth to serve as a forward base.

I think the attack force at Matsuyama may well need beefing up. I think I'll slip in a spear build at Corinth before starting the FP there.

The LBs on Home Island are intended as an upgrade to our core defenses, in case we get unexpected landing parties of more advanced units! Perhaps Qin &/or Cyrus are building up an invasion force right now...

I should be inserting screenshots as well. Got so preoccupied taking notes that I forgot about pictures saying a thousand word...

Nicely done, Pariah . :goodjob:

Your reports are nice to read. Keep it on. With pictures they will be even better.

I will have a look at the save later on.

Roster

Sam - UP
drhirsch (automatically skipped until he reports back)
Harbourboy (away from 11th Sep - 4th Oct)
AgedOne - on deck
markh
The-Hawk
Pariah - just played

Had a look at the save. Looks good. I just miss a worker at Corinth. This and the FP there would be something I would like to see soon.

Looking at the save a bit more the most noticeable aspect is the lack of military with which to attack the AI. :( As I was one of those building infrastructure I can't complain about that too much. However we do need to do something about that. I'm in two minds as to whether to build the FP next in Corinth or more military instead. Thoughts?

I was thinking about moving up the spear from New Sarai to help in the attack at Matsuyama but I think I'll borrow an axe from Athens instead. Old Sarai will start working the mine again with the galley :whipped: asap. There's really no point in Old Sarai growing beyond three pop unless it has a lighthouse. I'm also tempted to do some :whipped: in most other cities when possible. This is going to hit research though.

Rather than sending troops by galley all the way I'm thinking of sending them via silver island and Athens which will minimise the time any one galley is available for interception although the troops will take somewhat longer to arrive.

I won't play until tomorrow evening which should give time for everyone to comment.

EDIT: Currently I intend to raze Yokohama unless there's any violent objections.

Wow, I haven't looked at the save in a couple of turnsets. We've made some good progress, I think our economy is ready to go. Well done all. :goodjob:

The problem... we are behind "the curve" versus Asoka and Cyrus. They are bigger and teching faster. The longer we wait to move up the curve, the worse it gets. Our strategic position is pretty bad right now, I don't know if we can win. However, I do know our strategic position is not going to get better over time... :(

So... Time to knock heads... the whole point of beelining to maces was to build some and have at Togu. I would be building maces everywhere (with the exception of the odd galley to replace those that get sunk in transit). At this point, building infrastructure is counterproductive... it slows down our going to war, which means we will soon be needing to beeline to knights or cavs. Of course, by then, the AI's will have rifles.

I'd let all the current builds finish, then switch them all to maces next. The only exceptions: I would switch Beshbalik to a mace now... 12 turns for the LB is too long to wait. We can leave the LB in the queue, if an AI lands we can whip to finish it for homeland defense. He is a good insurance policy, but there is no need to finish him now. I would also switch Turfan to a mace. We have two galleys and a third being built. If we get lucky, maybe this is enough for the moment.

Sam, I would strongly vote to keep Yokohama (and any other cities we capture from Togu). Two reasons...

1) We need to get some military-building cities established on lush island asap, this is as good a place as any. As I said above, time's a wastin'. Our economy can easily handle a couple of more cities. It will effect our tech pace, but we aren't gonna keep up anyhow.

2) We really, really need peace with some of the AI's. Cyrus has knights, he can kick our butts off lush island if he ever gets serious. Worse case, maybe we offer Cyrus Yoko for peace.

I think our only prayer for a victory is to get Togu's cities before he gets too many sami's built. At that point, with a bunch of his cities spamming military, maybe we can handle the others via brute force. They will have tech advantage, but weaker units can beat more advanced... just need to bring more. In a recent gauntlet, I went wire to wire with Hwacha's (cats)... was beating AI LB's and maces with them. Just need to have lots, and a strong stomach for the carnage.

Last point... if we are gonna keep Togu cities, we will absolutely need FP on lush island. Might as well be sooner, rather than later. I would build it next, and chop the forests there to speed it up.

I say keep Yokohama. We need to push further inland, and if we continue razing cities the AIs will just build new ones. And it will be better, as The-Hawk said, to have more cities turning out units in Lushland - instead of shipping them across from Athens of Home island, which is slow and dangerous.

I would have started the FP in Corinth if I didn't think it needed a lighthouse more.

We also need to fortify the homeland more. Karakorum is practicaly defenceless right now.

My qualms against keeping Yokohama were based on the difficulty of defending it when it is so far away from Corinth rather than the cost. However since it looks as though I'm outvoted I'll keep it.

I'll also start building the FP in Corinth.

Summary 1520 AD - 1550 AD
Toku is at war with Izzy. Matsuyama razed. Yokohama captured and reinforcements are due to arrive shortly. The transport route via silver island and Athens is working well.

Turn 310 - 1520 AD

The king was in a grumpy mood. His advisors were pointing out that little had been done to expand the kingdom since the demise of Alex the obnoxious. The fact that the king felt the same irritated him even more. Looking at the timetable for new troops the phrase 'give them a taste of the lash' sprung to mind. "I want those troops and the galley finished before our next meeting. Tell Turfan to start training a maceman." he told the advisors. The governors of Athens, Beshbalik, Corinth, New Sarai, Ning-hsia and Old Sarai are informed of the king's wish and take the necessary action to comply. :whipped: An axeman from Athens embarks in the galley by Athens to reinforce the attack on Matsuyama. Some workers are found to be wasting their time chopping down the forests by New Sarai and told to desist.

IBT: Spies report that Cyrus has completed Notre Dame. Qin's caravel moves to the east of Karakorum. Asoka's HA moves towards Corinth.

Turn 311 - 1523 AD
Karakorum finishes the caravel and resumed training a keshik. The king orders his two caravels to link up. Beshbalik , Ning-hsia and New Sarai start training maces. Old Sarai starts a cat and Corinth starts building a FP. The attack force at Matsuyama is reinforced by the axeman.

IBT: Qin's caravel attacks the two caravels and goes to a watery grave with no loss to our brave forces. :D

Turn 312 - 1526 AD
Matsuyama falls and is razed for the loss of a cat. The workers on silver island are moved towards Athens. Asoka's HA moves to the forest by Corinth. The king decides to wait to see what the HA will do. A mace and a cat from Athens arrive in Corinth.

IBT: Asoka's HA pillages a village. :mad:

Turn 313 - 1529 AD
The newly arrived mace dispatches the impudent HA. Karakorums completes the keshik and starts training a LB. Yokohama is captured for the loss of two cats Regrettably it has no buildings at all. :( The healed caravel from Athens is sent to explore the island to the east of the home island.

IBT:Toku makes a peace proposal.


http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k182/mrprab/SGOTM05/TokuPeaceOffer-1532AD.jpg


He is sent away with a flea in his ear. Coast watchers report a Qin caravel to the south of Corinth.

Turn 314 - 1532 AD
The troops in Yokohama heal whilst the transport of troops from the home isand continues. The king decides to chop the forest by Corinth. This will remove protection from further marauding enemies as well as helping the progress of the FP. No sign of Qin's caravel.

Turn 315 - 1535 AD
Troops continue healing in Yokohama. A keshik from Yokohama makes a brief sortie to see if the enemy is on his way.

Turn 316 - 1538 AD
Still no sign of a counter attack by Toku. Turfan grows to 7. As Turfan will have happiness problems growing that the king decides to focus on research to stop it growing. The research timescale for Guilds reduces by a turn.

Turn 317 - 1541 AD
Reinforcements start heading towards Yokohama.

Turn 318 - 1544 AD
Old Sarai starts training a mace. Yokohama comes out of revolt and the king is aghast at the cost of 14 :gold:. A courthouse is ordered with instructions to :whipped: as soon as possible. Confucianism spreads in Beshalik. :) Reviewing the intelligence reports the king notices a fall in Izzy's culture. Further investigations reveal that Toku declared war in 1523 AD but the spy report was overlooked at the time. :blush:

Turn 319 - 1547 AD
Turfan starts training another mace. The king is shocked to learn that Athens doesn't have a barracks. One is promptly ordered.

Turn 320 - 1550 AD
Ning-hsia starts training a mace. A spy reports that Toku now has a new type of military unit.


http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k182/mrprab/SGOTM05/TokuElephant-1550AD.jpg



Turn 310/660 (1520 AD) [19-Sep-2007 19:11:19]
Turfan begins: Maceman (10 turns)
Karakorum finishes: Caravel
Beshbalik grows: 4
Beshbalik finishes: Longbowman
Ning-hsia finishes: Longbowman
Old Sarai grows: 3
Old Sarai finishes: Galley
Corinth finishes: Lighthouse
Athens grows: 6
Athens finishes: Maceman
New Sarai finishes: Courthouse

IBT:
Attitude Change: Tokugawa(Japan) towards Saladin(Arabia), from 'Cautious' to

'Annoyed'
Attitude Change: Tokugawa(Japan) towards Cyrus(Persia), from 'Annoyed' to

'Furious'
Attitude Change: Saladin(Arabia) towards Tokugawa(Japan), from 'Cautious' to

'Annoyed'

Turn 311/660 (1523 AD) [19-Sep-2007 19:25:08]
Beshbalik begins: Maceman (21 turns)
Ning-hsia begins: Maceman (11 turns)
Old Sarai begins: Catapult (9 turns)
Corinth begins: Forbidden Palace (50 turns)
New Sarai begins: Maceman (15 turns)

IBT:
While defending in Mongolian territory near Karakorum, Caravel defeats (0.48/3):

Chinese Caravel (Prob Victory: 30.1%)
Tokugawa(Japan) declares war on Isabella(Spain)
Attitude Change: Tokugawa(Japan) towards Isabella(Spain), from 'Annoyed' to

'Furious'
Attitude Change: Isabella(Spain) towards Tokugawa(Japan), from 'Annoyed' to

'Furious'
Civics Change: Isabella(Spain) from 'Organized Religion' to 'Theocracy'

Turn 312/660 (1526 AD) [19-Sep-2007 19:45:23]
Caravel promoted: Combat I
While attacking in Japanese territory at Matsuyama, Catapult loses to: Japanese

Longbowman (2.64/6) (Prob Victory: 0.7%)
While attacking in Japanese territory at Matsuyama, Axeman defeats (3.95/5):

Japanese Longbowman (Prob Victory: 85.5%)
Razed Matsuyama
Karakorum finishes: Keshik

IBT:

Turn 313/660 (1529 AD) [19-Sep-2007 19:58:32]
While attacking in Mongolian territory at Corinth, Maceman defeats (3.92/8): Indian

Horse Archer (Prob Victory: 78.3%)
While attacking in Japanese territory at Yokohama, Catapult loses to: Japanese

Longbowman (6.00/6) (Prob Victory: 0.5%)
While attacking in Japanese territory at Yokohama, Catapult loses to: Japanese

Longbowman (1.80/6) (Prob Victory: 0.5%)
While attacking in Japanese territory at Yokohama, Axeman defeats (4.20/5): Japanese

Axeman (Prob Victory: 96.1%)
While attacking in Japanese territory at Yokohama, Swordsman defeats (5.16/6):

Japanese Spearman (Prob Victory: 99.9%)
While attacking in Japanese territory at Yokohama, Keshik defeats (4.74/6): Japanese

Longbowman (Prob Victory: 98.1%)
Judaism has spread: Yokohama
Captured Yokohama (Tokugawa)
Axeman promoted: City Raider I
Karakorum begins: Longbowman (6 turns)
New Sarai grows: 4

IBT:
Attitude Change: Tokugawa(Japan) towards Saladin(Arabia), from 'Annoyed' to

'Cautious'
Attitude Change: Saladin(Arabia) towards Tokugawa(Japan), from 'Annoyed' to

'Cautious'

Turn 314/660 (1532 AD) [19-Sep-2007 20:13:10]
Axeman promoted: City Raider III
Keshik promoted: Combat I
Maceman promoted: City Raider I
Karakorum grows: 9

IBT:

Turn 315/660 (1535 AD) [19-Sep-2007 20:27:34]

IBT:

Turn 316/660 (1538 AD) [19-Sep-2007 20:34:26]
Turfan grows: 7

IBT:
Attitude Change: Qin Shi Huang(China) towards Saladin(Arabia), from 'Cautious' to

'Pleased'
Attitude Change: Tokugawa(Japan) towards Saladin(Arabia), from 'Cautious' to

'Annoyed'
Attitude Change: Saladin(Arabia) towards Tokugawa(Japan), from 'Cautious' to

'Annoyed'

Turn 317/660 (1541 AD) [19-Sep-2007 20:40:47]
Karakorum finishes: Longbowman
Old Sarai finishes: Catapult

IBT:

Turn 318/660 (1544 AD) [19-Sep-2007 20:45:44]
Old Sarai begins: Maceman (15 turns)
Yokohama begins: Courthouse (45 turns)
Karakorum begins: Maceman (8 turns)
Confucianism has spread: Beshbalik
Turfan finishes: Maceman
Athens grows: 7
Athens finishes: Maceman

IBT:

Turn 319/660 (1547 AD) [19-Sep-2007 20:52:56]
Turfan begins: Maceman (10 turns)
Athens begins: Barracks (4 turns)
Ning-hsia finishes: Maceman

IBT:

Turn 320/660 (1550 AD) [19-Sep-2007 21:02:53]
Ning-hsia begins: Maceman (11 turns)



Turn 310, 1520 AD: You have trained a Caravel in Karakorum. Work has now begun on a Keshik.
Turn 310, 1520 AD: You have trained a Maceman in Athens. Work has now begun on a Maceman.
Turn 310, 1520 AD: Asoka's Golden Age has begun!!!
Turn 310, 1520 AD: Cyrus has completed Notre Dame!

Turn 311, 1523 AD: Qin Shi Huang's Caravel (3.74) vs Temujin's Caravel (3.30)
Turn 311, 1523 AD: Combat Odds: 69.9%
Turn 311, 1523 AD: (Extra Combat: -30%)
Turn 311, 1523 AD: (Plot Defense: +10%)
Turn 311, 1523 AD: Qin Shi Huang's Caravel is hit for 18 (78/100HP)
Turn 311, 1523 AD: Qin Shi Huang's Caravel is hit for 18 (60/100HP)
Turn 311, 1523 AD: Qin Shi Huang's Caravel is hit for 18 (42/100HP)
Turn 311, 1523 AD: Temujin's Caravel is hit for 21 (79/100HP)
Turn 311, 1523 AD: Temujin's Caravel is hit for 21 (58/100HP)
Turn 311, 1523 AD: Qin Shi Huang's Caravel is hit for 18 (24/100HP)
Turn 311, 1523 AD: Temujin's Caravel is hit for 21 (37/100HP)
Turn 311, 1523 AD: Temujin's Caravel is hit for 21 (16/100HP)
Turn 311, 1523 AD: Qin Shi Huang's Caravel is hit for 18 (6/100HP)
Turn 311, 1523 AD: Qin Shi Huang's Caravel is hit for 18 (0/100HP)
Turn 311, 1523 AD: Temujin's Caravel has defeated Qin Shi Huang's Caravel!
Turn 311, 1523 AD: Tokugawa has declared war on Isabella!
Turn 311, 1523 AD: Isabella adopts Theocracy!

Turn 312, 1526 AD: Temujin's Catapult (5.00) vs Tokugawa's Longbowman (9.60)
Turn 312, 1526 AD: Combat Odds: 0.7%
Turn 312, 1526 AD: (Fortify: +15%)
Turn 312, 1526 AD: (City Defense: +45%)
Turn 312, 1526 AD: Temujin's Catapult is hit for 27 (73/100HP)
Turn 312, 1526 AD: Tokugawa's Longbowman is hit for 14 (86/100HP)
Turn 312, 1526 AD: Temujin's Catapult is hit for 27 (46/100HP)
Turn 312, 1526 AD: Temujin's Catapult is hit for 27 (19/100HP)
Turn 312, 1526 AD: Tokugawa's Longbowman is hit for 14 (72/100HP)
Turn 312, 1526 AD: Tokugawa's Longbowman is hit for 14 (58/100HP)
Turn 312, 1526 AD: Tokugawa's Longbowman is hit for 14 (44/100HP)
Turn 312, 1526 AD: Temujin's Catapult is hit for 27 (0/100HP)
Turn 312, 1526 AD: Tokugawa's Longbowman has defeated Temujin's Catapult!
Turn 312, 1526 AD: Temujin's Axeman (6.00) vs Tokugawa's Longbowman (4.22)
Turn 312, 1526 AD: Combat Odds: 85.5%
Turn 312, 1526 AD: (Extra Combat: -20%)
Turn 312, 1526 AD: (Fortify: +15%)
Turn 312, 1526 AD: (City Defense: +45%)
Turn 312, 1526 AD: Tokugawa's Longbowman is hit for 18 (26/100HP)
Turn 312, 1526 AD: Temujin's Axeman is hit for 21 (79/100HP)
Turn 312, 1526 AD: Tokugawa's Longbowman is hit for 18 (8/100HP)
Turn 312, 1526 AD: Tokugawa's Longbowman is hit for 18 (0/100HP)
Turn 312, 1526 AD: Temujin's Axeman has defeated Tokugawa's Longbowman!
Turn 312, 1526 AD: You have captured Matsuyama!!!
Turn 312, 1526 AD: You have pillaged 3 ? from the destruction of Matsuyama!!!
Turn 312, 1526 AD: You have trained a Keshik in Karakorum. Work has now begun on a Galley.

Turn 313, 1529 AD: Temujin's Maceman (8.80) vs Asoka's Horse Archer (6.60)
Turn 313, 1529 AD: Combat Odds: 78.3%
Turn 313, 1529 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 313, 1529 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 313, 1529 AD: Temujin's Maceman is hit for 17 (83/100HP)
Turn 313, 1529 AD: Asoka's Horse Archer is hit for 23 (77/100HP)
Turn 313, 1529 AD: Temujin's Maceman is hit for 17 (66/100HP)
Turn 313, 1529 AD: Asoka's Horse Archer is hit for 23 (54/100HP)
Turn 313, 1529 AD: Asoka's Horse Archer is hit for 23 (31/100HP)
Turn 313, 1529 AD: Asoka's Horse Archer is hit for 23 (8/100HP)
Turn 313, 1529 AD: Temujin's Maceman is hit for 17 (49/100HP)
Turn 313, 1529 AD: Asoka's Horse Archer is hit for 23 (0/100HP)
Turn 313, 1529 AD: Temujin's Maceman has defeated Asoka's Horse Archer!
Turn 313, 1529 AD: Temujin's Catapult (5.00) vs Tokugawa's Longbowman (10.20)
Turn 313, 1529 AD: Combat Odds: 0.5%
Turn 313, 1529 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 313, 1529 AD: (City Defense: +45%)
Turn 313, 1529 AD: Temujin's Catapult is hit for 28 (72/100HP)
Turn 313, 1529 AD: Temujin's Catapult is hit for 28 (44/100HP)
Turn 313, 1529 AD: Temujin's Catapult is hit for 28 (16/100HP)
Turn 313, 1529 AD: Temujin's Catapult is hit for 28 (0/100HP)
Turn 313, 1529 AD: Tokugawa's Longbowman has defeated Temujin's Catapult!
Turn 313, 1529 AD: Temujin's Catapult (5.00) vs Tokugawa's Longbowman (10.20)
Turn 313, 1529 AD: Combat Odds: 0.5%
Turn 313, 1529 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 313, 1529 AD: (City Defense: +45%)
Turn 313, 1529 AD: Temujin's Catapult is hit for 28 (72/100HP)
Turn 313, 1529 AD: Tokugawa's Longbowman is hit for 14 (86/100HP)
Turn 313, 1529 AD: Tokugawa's Longbowman is hit for 14 (72/100HP)
Turn 313, 1529 AD: Tokugawa's Longbowman is hit for 14 (58/100HP)
Turn 313, 1529 AD: Temujin's Catapult is hit for 28 (44/100HP)
Turn 313, 1529 AD: Tokugawa's Longbowman is hit for 14 (44/100HP)
Turn 313, 1529 AD: Tokugawa's Longbowman is hit for 14 (30/100HP)
Turn 313, 1529 AD: Temujin's Catapult is hit for 28 (16/100HP)
Turn 313, 1529 AD: Temujin's Catapult is hit for 28 (0/100HP)
Turn 313, 1529 AD: Tokugawa's Longbowman has defeated Temujin's Catapult!
Turn 313, 1529 AD: Temujin's Axeman (6.00) vs Tokugawa's Axeman (3.63)
Turn 313, 1529 AD: Combat Odds: 96.1%
Turn 313, 1529 AD: (Extra Combat: -20%)
Turn 313, 1529 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 313, 1529 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 313, 1529 AD: (City Attack: -45%)
Turn 313, 1529 AD: (Combat: -50%)
Turn 313, 1529 AD: (Combat: +50%)
Turn 313, 1529 AD: Tokugawa's Axeman is hit for 24 (56/100HP)
Turn 313, 1529 AD: Temujin's Axeman is hit for 16 (84/100HP)
Turn 313, 1529 AD: Tokugawa's Axeman is hit for 24 (32/100HP)
Turn 313, 1529 AD: Tokugawa's Axeman is hit for 24 (8/100HP)
Turn 313, 1529 AD: Tokugawa's Axeman is hit for 24 (0/100HP)
Turn 313, 1529 AD: Temujin's Axeman has defeated Tokugawa's Axeman!
Turn 313, 1529 AD: Temujin's Swordsman (6.60) vs Tokugawa's Spearman (2.75)
Turn 313, 1529 AD: Combat Odds: 99.9%
Turn 313, 1529 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 313, 1529 AD: (Extra Combat: +20%)
Turn 313, 1529 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 313, 1529 AD: (City Attack: -55%)
Turn 313, 1529 AD: Tokugawa's Spearman is hit for 28 (48/100HP)
Turn 313, 1529 AD: Temujin's Swordsman is hit for 14 (86/100HP)
Turn 313, 1529 AD: Tokugawa's Spearman is hit for 28 (20/100HP)
Turn 313, 1529 AD: Tokugawa's Spearman is hit for 28 (0/100HP)
Turn 313, 1529 AD: Temujin's Swordsman has defeated Tokugawa's Spearman!
Turn 313, 1529 AD: Temujin's Keshik (6.00) vs Tokugawa's Longbowman (3.06)
Turn 313, 1529 AD: Combat Odds: 98.1%
Turn 313, 1529 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 313, 1529 AD: (City Defense: +45%)
Turn 313, 1529 AD: Temujin's Keshik is hit for 21 (79/100HP)
Turn 313, 1529 AD: Tokugawa's Longbowman is hit for 19 (11/100HP)
Turn 313, 1529 AD: Tokugawa's Longbowman is hit for 19 (0/100HP)
Turn 313, 1529 AD: Temujin's Keshik has defeated Tokugawa's Longbowman!
Turn 313, 1529 AD: You have captured Yokohama!!!

Turn 314, 1532 AD: Karakorum celebrates "We Love the Monarch Day"!!!

Turn 315, 1535 AD: Karakorum celebrates "We Love the Monarch Day"!!!

Turn 317, 1541 AD: You have trained a Longbowman in Karakorum. Work has now begun on a Galley.

Turn 318, 1544 AD: Confucianism has spread in Beshbalik.
Turn 318, 1544 AD: Athens has grown to size 7
Turn 318, 1544 AD: Athens has become unhappy

Turn 319, 1547 AD: Clearing a Forest has created 54 ? for Corinth.
Turn 319, 1547 AD: Asoka's Golden Age has ended...
Turn 319, 1547 AD: Blaise Pascal has been born in Madrid!

Roster

Sam - just played
drhirsch (automatically skipped until he reports back)
Harbourboy (away from 11th Sep - 4th Oct)
AgedOne - UP
markh - on deck
The-Hawk
Pariah

Btw Asoka can now reach our western coast by galley. :cry: We may want to consider sending some troops over there to repulse him. Looks like the big bad is beating up Murky Waters (shiver).

So we need some spears I guess. :)

Even more astonishing looks the score of One short straw. It is at 0, so it seems they gave up. I have to admit this game seems to be much more difficult than I thought.

Even more astonishing looks the score of One short straw. It is at 0, so it seems they gave up. I have to admit this game seems to be much more difficult than I thought.

That may be some sort of glitch with saves submitted more than once according to the maintenance thread.

Looks like we haven't quite given up the ghost yet, Sam-the-Lashman :)

Sorry if I seem to pop up only when it's my turn. Work has been making CIV prohibitive of late. Big project going live (then it didn't - but that's another tale :( )
I will be OK to play a session - probably over the weekend - but maybe tomorrow evening.

:lol: Even if I never play another SGOTM, I will forever read these threads just for Sam's writeups.

Looks like another good turnset. Togu's war with Izzy is huge. If he starts sending units her way, we can put a world class hurting on him. Maybe it will make Izzy our buddy too.

Togu's war with Izzy is huge. If he starts sending units her way, we can put a world class hurting on him. Maybe it will make Izzy our buddy too.

Given that I discovered the war because Izzy's culture curve had dropped, it looks pretty certain that Toku has already captured at least one of Izzy's cities so he must have had a reasonable amount of units over there. However the war has been going for about 9 turns now and I took Yokohama a turn or so into the war. It's possible that he may have been moving some units back by now. Equally I believe that AI in vanilla doesn't tend to war against each other for more than 30 turns, quite often less. Wars against non AI opponents work somewhat differently I believe. Despite having a plus for 'mutual struggle' Izzy is still annoyed with us.

All that said I agree that we should look at inflicting some more damage on Toku. Reinforcements, including cats, should arrive at Yokohama in three or four turns. It's probably worth scouting Kagoshima early on to see what defence he has there.

With Murky Waters' problems plain to see on the progress chart it just emphasises how crucial it is to get peace with Cyrus (and hopefully Asoka). If we can get Hinduism to spread to us, or capture a city with it, I think we should adopt it as our state religion to get some plus points.

The route via silver island and Athens works quite well and is quicker than the sea route so I think we should continue to use that route whilst we need to reinforce from the home island.

Looking at how things stand I have my doubts that we can do anything soon about Cyrus and Asoka. How do we see our likely targets? At the moment it looks like Toku and then Izzy. On our original plan we would then head for Cyrus and Asoka. Perhaps that may still be the case but I think we'll need quite a build up before we can take them on. That's assuming they give us the time to build up as we'll then be sharing a very long border with them. If we have peace then this is more feasible. Should we be considering taking out Sally before Izzy? Thoughts?

Guilds should hopefully finish during AgedOne's turnset. What's our research path to be? I would suggest Drama (already part learnt) to combat WW, Gunpowder & Chemistry for grens.

OK guys. Looks like I'll be playing tomorrow morning (say about 14 hours from now).

I'll list the main menu as I see it here, and if anyone thinks of any side orders, or anything I've missed off, then drop them in.


Shepherd the reinforcements safely to Yokohama.
Whip the courthouse in Yokohama as soon as feasible.
When Guilds research completes, move into Drama. Start preparing knights.
Continue using the reinforcement route via Silver Island and Athens to the front line.
Whip new units whenever the citizens can stand it.
Target Toku's cities - probably Kagoshima first.
I'd be worried about moving against Sally and leaving our front line exposed, so continuing against Toku, followed probably by Izzy, seems the main strategy.
If we can get access to Hinduism, then adopt it and see whether this appeases Cyrus or Asoka enough to get peace.

Sounds like a plan... no suggestions on my part.

Whip new units whenever the citizens can stand it.


The existing whip unhappiness should wear off about half way through your turn.



I'd be worried about moving against Sally and leaving our front line exposed, so continuing against Toku, followed probably by Izzy, seems the main strategy.


My thoughts about Sally were a proposal about what we might do after Toku's demise. I certainly wasn't proposing a two front war.

Summary

Took Kagoshima and kept it.
FP completed - helping the economy no end.
Learned Guilds, but also Theology and Music.
Knights are in production - just one riding around though.
Troop movement via galley convoys continuing.
Saw off an annoying one of Qin's caravels.
Izzy couldn't sustain being at war with Toku. They're at peace again.

Detailed Report

T320 (1550AD)
Bad start. Popped a keshik out of Yokohama to attempt recce on Kagoshima, but ran into cat+sword. Oops.

IBT
Hmm. Sword & cat decide not to attack, but move on towards Yokohama.

T321 (1553AD)
Destroyed the sword&cat with our axe&keshik.
Continued the troop convoys from home to the east.

IBT
Grr. Izzy made peace with Toku.

T322 (1556)

160940

Spied on Kagoshima. 50% defence. Guarded by LB with CG1, Spear with C1.
Troop flow continued.
No whipping possible yet.
Guilds 4 turns away, but that at 50% research. Will have to lower next turn or run out of cash.

IBT
Qin caravel moves in towards Turfan from NE.

T323 (1559)
Athens completes barracks and starts maceman.
Our ill-fated keshik runs into elephant now N of Yokohama.
We sent 2 caravels to intercept Qin's one.
Research to 30%.

IBT
Learned Theology (via Barb-aid)
No-one attacked our wounded keshik!
Toku is moving forces to head off our attack brewing at Kagoshima. So far, consists of 1 LB.


T324 (1562)
Our (healthy) keshik defeats Toku's LB.
Completed Maceman in New Sarai, and started Barracks.
Our caravels cover the fishing boats by Turfan.
Whipped maceman in Turfan.

IBT
Qin's caravel turned S down the coast towards Old Sarai.
Toku bolstered Kagoshima defences with a War Elephant.

T325 (1565)
Turfan completed maceman and started caravel.
Our cats are starting to arrive at Kagoshima.
Our caravels pursue Qin's around the coast.
Whipped a mace in Athens, barracks in New Sarai

IBT
Toku war elephant approaches our Kagoshima forces from the north.

T326 (1568)
Bombardment begins at Kagoshima.
Athens and New Sarai start macemen.

IBT
Qin's caravel attacks us but loses.
Two more caravels appear - Asoka has one to the north of Karakorum - Toku moves one along the coast by Yokohama.
We learned Guilds as expected. And Music, unexpectedly!!

T327 (1571)
Next research is Drama (5 turns).
Bombardment almost complete on Kagoshima.
Moved caravels - either to heal or to keep an eye on enemy caravels.
Began Knight builds in Karakorum, Ning-Hsia, Athens. Queued one up behind FP in Corinth.

IBT
Toku's caravel moves west along the coast by Yokohama.
Our FP completes in Corinth - giving us a big economic boost!

T328 (1574)
Research back to 40%.
Bombardment completed on Kagoshima.
Attacked with 3rd cat to cause collateral damage.
Attacked and took Kagoshima - though it didn't all go to plan.
147 gold for capturing it is pleasant.
Kept Kagoshima - though with many misgivings, as it is virtually unguarded for now.
Whipped our first knight in Karakorum.

IBT
Kagoshima is not attacked!

T329 (1577)
Reinforced Kagoshima.
Research up to 50%.

IBT
Nothing to report.

T330 (1580)
Units healing in Kagoshima. Keshik scouting on ahead.
Workers roading from Corinth through to Yokohama and Kagoshima.
Troop convoys continue.

Official Save Game
http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm5/Geezers_SG005_AD1580_01.Civ4SavedGame

Session Turn Log

Turn 321, 1553 AD: Temujin's Axeman (6.00) vs Tokugawa's Swordsman (5.00)
Turn 321, 1553 AD: Combat Odds: 73.0%
Turn 321, 1553 AD: (Extra Combat: -20%)
Turn 321, 1553 AD: (Extra Combat: +30%)
Turn 321, 1553 AD: (Combat: -50%)
Turn 321, 1553 AD: Tokugawa's Swordsman is hit for 21 (79/100HP)
Turn 321, 1553 AD: Temujin's Axeman is hit for 18 (82/100HP)
Turn 321, 1553 AD: Tokugawa's Swordsman is hit for 21 (58/100HP)
Turn 321, 1553 AD: Tokugawa's Swordsman is hit for 21 (37/100HP)
Turn 321, 1553 AD: Tokugawa's Swordsman is hit for 21 (16/100HP)
Turn 321, 1553 AD: Tokugawa's Swordsman is hit for 21 (0/100HP)
Turn 321, 1553 AD: Temujin's Axeman has defeated Tokugawa's Swordsman!
Turn 321, 1553 AD: Temujin's Keshik (7.80) vs Tokugawa's Catapult (3.33)
Turn 321, 1553 AD: Combat Odds: 99.8%
Turn 321, 1553 AD: (Extra Combat: -30%)
Turn 321, 1553 AD: (Class Attack: -50%)
Turn 321, 1553 AD: Tokugawa's Catapult is hit for 30 (70/100HP)
Turn 321, 1553 AD: Temujin's Keshik is hit for 13 (87/100HP)
Turn 321, 1553 AD: Tokugawa's Catapult is hit for 30 (40/100HP)
Turn 321, 1553 AD: Tokugawa's Catapult is hit for 30 (10/100HP)
Turn 321, 1553 AD: Tokugawa's Catapult is hit for 30 (0/100HP)
Turn 321, 1553 AD: Temujin's Keshik has defeated Tokugawa's Catapult!
Turn 321, 1553 AD: Pytheas has been born in Beijing!
Turn 321, 1553 AD: St. Paul has been born in Medina!
Turn 321, 1553 AD: Isabella has made peace with Tokugawa!

Turn 322, 1556 AD: Saladin has completed The Dai Miao!
Turn 322, 1556 AD: Isabella adopts Organized Religion!

Turn 323, 1559 AD: You have discovered Theology!

Turn 324, 1562 AD: Temujin's Keshik (6.60) vs Tokugawa's Crossbowman (6.00)
Turn 324, 1562 AD: Combat Odds: 59.1%
Turn 324, 1562 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 324, 1562 AD: Tokugawa's Crossbowman is hit for 20 (80/100HP)
Turn 324, 1562 AD: Tokugawa's Crossbowman is hit for 20 (60/100HP)
Turn 324, 1562 AD: Tokugawa's Crossbowman is hit for 20 (40/100HP)
Turn 324, 1562 AD: Tokugawa's Crossbowman is hit for 20 (20/100HP)
Turn 324, 1562 AD: Tokugawa's Crossbowman is hit for 20 (0/100HP)
Turn 324, 1562 AD: Temujin's Keshik has defeated Tokugawa's Crossbowman!

Turn 325, 1565 AD: You have trained a Maceman in Karakorum. Work has now begun on a Galley.

Turn 326, 1568 AD: You have discovered Guilds!
Turn 326, 1568 AD: Karakorum celebrates "We Love the Monarch Day"!!!
Turn 326, 1568 AD: New Sarai has grown to size 4
Turn 326, 1568 AD: Qin Shi Huang's Caravel (3.30) vs Temujin's Caravel (3.00)
Turn 326, 1568 AD: Combat Odds: 68.1%
Turn 326, 1568 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 326, 1568 AD: Temujin's Caravel is hit for 20 (80/100HP)
Turn 326, 1568 AD: Qin Shi Huang's Caravel is hit for 19 (81/100HP)
Turn 326, 1568 AD: Qin Shi Huang's Caravel is hit for 19 (62/100HP)
Turn 326, 1568 AD: Qin Shi Huang's Caravel is hit for 19 (43/100HP)
Turn 326, 1568 AD: Qin Shi Huang's Caravel is hit for 19 (24/100HP)
Turn 326, 1568 AD: Qin Shi Huang's Caravel is hit for 19 (5/100HP)
Turn 326, 1568 AD: Temujin's Caravel is hit for 20 (60/100HP)
Turn 326, 1568 AD: Temujin's Caravel is hit for 20 (40/100HP)
Turn 326, 1568 AD: Qin Shi Huang's Caravel is hit for 19 (0/100HP)
Turn 326, 1568 AD: Temujin's Caravel has defeated Qin Shi Huang's Caravel!
Turn 326, 1568 AD: Saladin adopts Theocracy!
Turn 326, 1568 AD: You have discovered Music!

Turn 327, 1571 AD: Your Catapult has reduced the defenses of Kagoshima to 27%!
Turn 327, 1571 AD: Your Catapult has reduced the defenses of Kagoshima to 12%!
Turn 327, 1571 AD: Karakorum celebrates "We Love the Monarch Day"!!!
Turn 327, 1571 AD: You have constructed Forbidden Palace in Corinth. Work has now begun on a Knight.

Turn 328, 1574 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Yokohama!
Turn 328, 1574 AD: Your Catapult has reduced the defenses of Kagoshima to 5%!
Turn 328, 1574 AD: Your Catapult has reduced the defenses of Kagoshima to 0%!
Turn 328, 1574 AD: Clearing a Forest has created 54 ? for Corinth.
Turn 328, 1574 AD: Clearing a Forest has created 46 ? for Corinth.
Turn 328, 1574 AD: Temujin's Catapult (5.00) vs Tokugawa's Longbowman (9.00)
Turn 328, 1574 AD: Combat Odds: 1.9%
Turn 328, 1574 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 328, 1574 AD: (City Defense: +45%)
Turn 328, 1574 AD: (City Attack: -20%)
Turn 328, 1574 AD: Your Catapult has caused collateral damage! (1 Unit)
Turn 328, 1574 AD: Temujin's Catapult is hit for 26 (74/100HP)
Turn 328, 1574 AD: Temujin's Catapult is hit for 26 (48/100HP)
Turn 328, 1574 AD: Temujin's Catapult is hit for 26 (22/100HP)
Turn 328, 1574 AD: Temujin's Catapult is hit for 26 (0/100HP)
Turn 328, 1574 AD: Tokugawa's Longbowman has defeated Temujin's Catapult!
Turn 328, 1574 AD: Your Catapult has died trying to attack a Longbowman!
Turn 328, 1574 AD: Temujin's Maceman (8.80) vs Tokugawa's Longbowman (9.00)
Turn 328, 1574 AD: Combat Odds: 30.4%
Turn 328, 1574 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 328, 1574 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 328, 1574 AD: (City Defense: +45%)
Turn 328, 1574 AD: (City Attack: -20%)
Turn 328, 1574 AD: Temujin's Maceman is hit for 20 (80/100HP)
Turn 328, 1574 AD: Tokugawa's Longbowman is hit for 19 (81/100HP)
Turn 328, 1574 AD: Temujin's Maceman is hit for 20 (60/100HP)
Turn 328, 1574 AD: Temujin's Maceman is hit for 20 (40/100HP)
Turn 328, 1574 AD: Temujin's Maceman is hit for 20 (20/100HP)
Turn 328, 1574 AD: Tokugawa's Longbowman is hit for 19 (62/100HP)
Turn 328, 1574 AD: Temujin's Maceman is hit for 20 (0/100HP)
Turn 328, 1574 AD: Tokugawa's Longbowman has defeated Temujin's Maceman!
Turn 328, 1574 AD: Your Maceman has died trying to attack a Longbowman!
Turn 328, 1574 AD: Temujin's Axeman (6.00) vs Tokugawa's Longbowman (3.54)
Turn 328, 1574 AD: Combat Odds: 95.3%
Turn 328, 1574 AD: (Extra Combat: -20%)
Turn 328, 1574 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 328, 1574 AD: (City Defense: +45%)
Turn 328, 1574 AD: (City Attack: -75%)
Turn 328, 1574 AD: Temujin's Axeman is hit for 17 (83/100HP)
Turn 328, 1574 AD: Temujin's Axeman is hit for 17 (66/100HP)
Turn 328, 1574 AD: Temujin's Axeman is hit for 17 (49/100HP)
Turn 328, 1574 AD: Tokugawa's Longbowman is hit for 22 (40/100HP)
Turn 328, 1574 AD: Tokugawa's Longbowman is hit for 22 (18/100HP)
Turn 328, 1574 AD: Tokugawa's Longbowman is hit for 22 (0/100HP)
Turn 328, 1574 AD: Temujin's Axeman has defeated Tokugawa's Longbowman!
Turn 328, 1574 AD: Your Axeman has destroyed a Longbowman!
Turn 328, 1574 AD: Temujin's Spearman (4.80) vs Tokugawa's Spearman (4.80)
Turn 328, 1574 AD: Combat Odds: 50.0%
Turn 328, 1574 AD: (Extra Combat: -20%)
Turn 328, 1574 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 328, 1574 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 328, 1574 AD: Temujin's Spearman is hit for 20 (80/100HP)
Turn 328, 1574 AD: Temujin's Spearman is hit for 20 (60/100HP)
Turn 328, 1574 AD: Temujin's Spearman is hit for 20 (40/100HP)
Turn 328, 1574 AD: Temujin's Spearman is hit for 20 (20/100HP)
Turn 328, 1574 AD: Temujin's Spearman is hit for 20 (0/100HP)
Turn 328, 1574 AD: Tokugawa's Spearman has defeated Temujin's Spearman!
Turn 328, 1574 AD: Your Spearman has died trying to attack a Spearman!
Turn 328, 1574 AD: Temujin's Keshik (7.80) vs Tokugawa's Spearman (8.36)
Turn 328, 1574 AD: Combat Odds: 52.6%
Turn 328, 1574 AD: (Extra Combat: -30%)
Turn 328, 1574 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 328, 1574 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 328, 1574 AD: (Combat: +100%)
Turn 328, 1574 AD: Tokugawa's Spearman is hit for 18 (71/100HP)
Turn 328, 1574 AD: Tokugawa's Spearman is hit for 18 (53/100HP)
Turn 328, 1574 AD: Temujin's Keshik is hit for 21 (79/100HP)
Turn 328, 1574 AD: Temujin's Keshik is hit for 21 (58/100HP)
Turn 328, 1574 AD: Temujin's Keshik is hit for 21 (37/100HP)
Turn 328, 1574 AD: Temujin's Keshik is hit for 21 (16/100HP)
Turn 328, 1574 AD: Temujin's Keshik is hit for 21 (0/100HP)
Turn 328, 1574 AD: Tokugawa's Spearman has defeated Temujin's Keshik!
Turn 328, 1574 AD: Your Keshik has died trying to attack a Spearman!
Turn 328, 1574 AD: Temujin's Keshik (6.60) vs Tokugawa's Spearman (4.98)
Turn 328, 1574 AD: Combat Odds: 91.3%
Turn 328, 1574 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 328, 1574 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 328, 1574 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 328, 1574 AD: (Combat: +100%)
Turn 328, 1574 AD: Tokugawa's Spearman is hit for 19 (34/100HP)
Turn 328, 1574 AD: Temujin's Keshik is hit for 20 (80/100HP)
Turn 328, 1574 AD: Tokugawa's Spearman is hit for 19 (15/100HP)
Turn 328, 1574 AD: Temujin's Keshik is hit for 20 (60/100HP)
Turn 328, 1574 AD: Temujin's Keshik is hit for 20 (40/100HP)
Turn 328, 1574 AD: Tokugawa's Spearman is hit for 19 (0/100HP)
Turn 328, 1574 AD: Temujin's Keshik has defeated Tokugawa's Spearman!
Turn 328, 1574 AD: Your Keshik has destroyed a Spearman!
Turn 328, 1574 AD: You have captured Kagoshima!!!
Turn 328, 1574 AD: Karakorum has grown to size 8
Turn 328, 1574 AD: You have trained a Knight in Karakorum. Work has now begun on a Galley.
Turn 328, 1574 AD: Yokohama will grow to size 6 on the next turn
Turn 328, 1574 AD: Tokugawa adopts Mercantilism!
Turn 328, 1574 AD: Tokugawa adopts Organized Religion!

Turn 329, 1577 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Yokohama!
Turn 329, 1577 AD: Turfan will grow to size 6 on the next turn
Turn 329, 1577 AD: Yokohama has grown to size 6
Turn 329, 1577 AD: Yokohama has become unhappy

Turn 330, 1580 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Yokohama!

Very nice progress AgedOne. :goodjob:


Attacked and took Kagoshima - though it didn't all go to plan.


I wondered about this. However looking at the session log, and our losses, explained the comment. :lol:

As an aside it's amusing to see a barb maceman. :lol:

Thoughts for the next turnset:


The courthouse at Yokohama can be :whipped: for 3 pop although the FP has made a big difference to the maintenance cost.
We have a medic 2 axe hanging around on the hill by Corinth. :eek: We really should have him with the attack forces.
Is it worth switching to Vassalage instead of Bureaucracy for the extra XPs? Probably not but I thought I would mention it.
Dropping off units on the road on silver island tends to speed up their tranfer across the island.
Ning-hsia should work the hill forest instead of the bananas to stop it growing unhappy. Also speeds up production.
Beshbalik can work a cottage for 2 :gold: instead of the forest. Every little helps and we still get a :hammers:. :)

I wondered about this. However looking at the session log, and our losses, explained the comment. :lol:

Ah. I see I was assuming you were all mind readers (again). :hammer2:

After reducing the city defences to 0, we had one more cat that hadn't attacked, mace, axe, spear and 2 keshiks in the attack party.
Used the cat to cause some collateral damage, losing it as expected.
The damage was caused to the spearman rather than the longbow.
Mace attacked LB at 30%, losing as expected.
Axeman made short work of the wounded LB at 95%.

Then came the disappointment as both our spearman (at 50%) and a keshik(at 52%) lost attacking the wounded spearman.

That left us with only a keshik to take and hold the city - which it did.

Looking back, it was only losing both the 50% chances rather than winning one out of two that didn't go to plan. So that wasn't too bad.

After reducing the city defences to 0, we had one more cat that hadn't attacked, mace, axe, spear and 2 keshiks in the attack party.
Used the cat to cause some collateral damage, losing it as expected.


Having been caught out many times in the past I must admit I often wait another turn so that I can use multiple cats to weaken the defence. It can be expensive in cats, although sometimes they retreat instead, but does mean my main attack units are more likely to survive and get more XPs.

Having been caught out many times in the past I must admit I often wait another turn so that I can use multiple cats to weaken the defence. It can be expensive in cats, although sometimes they retreat instead, but does mean my main attack units are more likely to survive and get more XPs.

That's interesting that you should mention that. I think that I would, too, more often than not.

What I need to think about is why I am playing differently in these turnsets from how I would play in a SP game.

I'm playing much more slowly than normal. My 10 turns took almost 2 hours today, including note-taking. That's just incredible. However, you'd think that would make me more cautious, and think about decisions more. On this occasion it didn't. I don't really know why. Psychiatrist, please :)

My 10 turns took almost 2 hours today, including note-taking. That's just incredible.

That turn time sounds roughly about the time it took me for my last turnset. I do tend to pause the game every now and then whilst I have a think about what to do next. By the time I crop some pictures, upload them and writeup the turnset it probably ends up as getting on for 3 -4 hours overall.

OTOH this is one of the reasons why SGs tend to have ten turn turnsets. ;)

Roster

Sam
drhirsch (automatically skipped until he reports back)
Harbourboy (away from 11th Sep - 4th Oct)
AgedOne - just played
markh - Up
The-Hawk - on deck
Pariah

Great turnset... we continue to chip away.


Is it worth switching to Vassalage instead of Bureaucracy for the extra XPs? Probably not but I thought I would mention it.

I had thought about this several turnsets ago since Vassalage also provides some free units (a gold pickup). I almost always switch to Vassalage on Domination attemtps. However, I concluded at the time that the impact on our commerce would be too great. Our capital is cranking out commerce. I have not looked at the save, but I assume the impact on our economy is still too high.

How are we doing guys? Have we won yet?

How are we doing guys? Have we won yet?

Making progress but we'll need your expertise before we can win. ;)

Nice to see our first knight.:goodjob:

I got it. Will have a look later on.

I had a quick look. The courthouse in Yokohama will be whipped and I will play tomorrow morning.

Looks good. Whip the courthouse in Yokohama.

Move our fortified medic axe towards the frontline

IBT : we learn drama and move up to second place in score again
set research to engineering. I guess we want some pikes to counter knights and +1 movement is also welcome

Corinth : knight -> settler
Yokohama : courthouse -> barracks

1) 1583AD : just moving units

IBT : a barb mace moves towards Phoenician and reveals there are two phants and a spear defending the city

2) 1586AD : more troops movement

IBT : we learn engineering -> gunpowder

Old Sarai : Maceman -> catapult

3) 1589AD : well, the same as the last turns

IBT : Toku wants engineering for peace. I don't think so, buddy.

4) 1592AD : move a stack out of Kagoshima towards Osaka

IBT : Kagoshima comes out of revolt : courthouse

5) 1595AD : not much to do apart from shipping units

IBT : An Indian knight appears NE of Corinth

6) 1598AD : rush a pike in Corinth
rush a mace in Athens as it grew unhappy

our stack moves beside Osaka. There are 3 cats, a longbow, a war elephant, a spear and a crossbow

IBT : Toku attacks our stack with a cat which retreats against our knight

Karakorum : knight -> settler
Athens : mace -> knight

7) 1601AD : start bombarding Osaka

IBT : Toku moves a war elephant, 2 crossbows and a catapult to Kagoshima

Asoka's knight moves towards Corinth

A galley at Athens sinks a Persian caravel

Athens : knight -> catapult

8) 1604AD : roading towards Kagoshima is complete and we have spices connected to our network

Catapult attacks the stack and retreats

Pike dies attacking the Indian knight (at 79,5%)
A sword finishes the job

IBT : Toku attacks Kagoshima
His catapult loses to a mace
His war elephant kills a mace
His first crossbow loses to a Keshik
His second crossbow kills the Keshik

An Indian galleon appears South of Ning Hsia, it carries two longbows and a settler

9) 1607AD : Osaka's defences are down to 0. Will attack next turn

Two maces kill the Japanese war elephant and crossbow at Kagoshima

IBT : another Japanese war elephant and catapult appear NE of Kagoshima

Beshbalik : catapult -> catapult

10) 1610AD : three cats do not even scratch the longbow
send in a mace at 22% and it brings it down to 2,8
I HAAAATE this game : an axe at 96% loses to the longbow
mace kills the war elephant in Osaka
sword kills the spear in Osaka
catapult kills the longbow
keshik kills the first catapult in Osaka
keshik kills the second catapult and the city is ours for 151 gold and it has a forge, marketplace and lighthouse

knight kills another Japanese longbow that was just outside of the city to reinforce it

A settler will finish in Corinth next turn. I would settle South of Corinth at the wine or East of it towards Phoenician, although I think this might attract Cyrus to pay more attention to us.

Diplomatic Situation :

Cyrus would make peace giving him Kagoshima
Toku would make peace giving us 300 gold
Asoka and Qin won't make peace at all

Cyrus would make peace giving him Kagoshima


:gripe: Cyrus really knows how to make peace difficult doesn't he? Cutting our supply line to Osaka and beyond in half. The other question is why does he want it? As a base to attack Toku or ourselves subsequently?


Toku would make peace giving us 300 gold


:hmm: I must admit I'm quite tempted by this. We are a bit light on defence on lush island which will only get worse if we found another city. Only Qin likes Toku so most of the AI won't mind when we DoW again.


An Indian galleon appears South of Ning Hsia, it carries two longbows and a settler


On that point I notice that Cyrus and Qin also have Astronomy. I wonder if we can expect a naval landing in the not too distant future. :eek: I suppose this might be a reason not to make peace with Toku as it will upset Qin when we redeclare. I'm really in two minds about this. We may well need to beef up the garrisons on the home island.

I was wondering why Toku's culture had gone up so much despite losing cities. It seems he captured Izzy's holy city and shrine in his last war.

EDIT: I've just noticed that Phoenician seems pretty weakly defended. I didn't really want to take the northern cities until we had cleaned up the southern ones and also had a decent force to discourage Cyrus from attacking immediately but it is very tempting.... OTOH perhaps Cyrus might get the wrong ideas. :eek:

EDIT 2: Whoops. Forgot to to congratulate mark on his turnset. :blush:

Congrats markh! :goodjob: We continue to make progress.
(And that despite the cursed RNG! 96% loss! That's why I have a bottle of Bushmills 10 year old handy when I'm playing)

Phoenician is a really tempting target, but I would just consider to take it if we intend to make peace with Toku. If we take it we will have direct borders with Cyrus and this will encourage him to send some units over. We do not have the strength to fight both, so our strategy could be to take Phoenician as a base towards Cyrus. Once we have Phoenician we have to make peace with Toku and concentrate on Cyrus. IIRC Toku has just 4 cities left. If we take Phoenician he will just have 3 and he will be more or less out of the game. The next Southern city of Toku would be Kyoto which is his capital. Obviously he will have a good garrison there and we will need some time to get an army formed to attack him there, so the plan to take Phoenician and then make peace with him looks quite apealing the more I think of it. We do not need to redeclare on Toku for a long time then. With just three cities I do not think he will be much of a threat and he will not redeclare from his side if we get stronger.

@AgedOne : this might be the reason why the RNG is always that bad to me. :lol: Maybe beer is not good enough. Next time I will try with a good old Talisker.

Roster

Sam
drhirsch (automatically skipped until he reports back)
Harbourboy (away from 11th Sep - 4th Oct)
AgedOne
markh - just played
The-Hawk - UP
Pariah - on deck

IIRC Toku has just 4 cities left. If we take Phoenician he will just have 3 and he will be more or less out of the game.

I don't have the game open atm but does this include that holy city of Izzy's that he took?

I don't think that we can do anything soon about Cyrus. Seems to me that this game is going to be like SGOTM02 where we had to tech to infantry and flight before we could finish. However taking Phoenician will make a big dent in Toku's income although with a 1000 :gold: in the kitty he's not short of a few bob.

The big question is whether Cyrus and/or Asoka will start having a go at us if we take Phoenician. We don't want to follow in Murky Waters footsteps. Btw it looks as though they've retired since their last save seems to have vanished from the progress board.

Outstanding, I'm starting to see a light at the end of the tunnel. :)

Mark, I think you are on to something here. If we keep after Togu, we will have too long of a border to defend. I'm thinking on your lines:


Grab Phoenician (keep it), make peace with Togu. Once we have peace with Togu, we have a relatively small front to cover. After all, Togu is Togu. He has closed borders with all the others, so we are protected to the east. All of our pressure will come from the NE via a narrow corridor. Our other lush island cities should be relatively safe, at least until Togu rebuilds and comes looking for some payback.
Grab Tyre (keep it)
Hunker down in Tyre. I would expect Cyrus will counter attack at Tyre vs. Phoenician. We are going to get hammered, but we might as well face that music sooner than later. If we get a good stack in there to defend, he may burn through a bunch of units and even out our power deficit. Then we go after his next city.


One concern with this plan: Osaka is going to get some serious culture pressure from Kyoto. However, I think this is a risk we need to take... trying for Kyoto may be even a bigger risk.

Sam, I also agree on the need to build a defense force on the home island. We really are at risk of an invasion. I would recommend we build a force of about 4-5 knights and let them hang around near Karakorum. Their mobility should allow us to move to respond to an invasion. I would not waste time on defensive units, if we are invaded we want to hit them before they pillage.

Some other items for discussion:


I would recommend we do some unit upgrading. I notice we have some level 5 Keshik and Axes. I think these would make fine L5 Knights and Maces. If we get some gold from Togu and turn off research for a few turns, we should be able to promote 3-4 units. Anyone opposed to this?
I would settle the Corinth settler 1 East of the wine on the plains hill. Extra prod from the hill, lets us share a cottage with Corinth, gives us the gold from the wine. Anyone else have any other candidate sites?
I see a settler being produced in Karakorum. I don't recall the discussion on this one, where should I be settling him when he finishes? :confused:


Oh, this is my "got it". I'll probably wait a couple of days to play since we are at a strategy junction. I'll plan on playing Friday night.

Yes, it was exactly my thinking that we will not be able to defend such a long border with Cyrus, so taking Phoenician as a last step in the war with Toku looks like a good step forward. Now that he is willing to make peace and giving us gold for it we should take it. If we take Phoenician we should get even more gold from him or a tech maybe. :mischief:

I already thought of upgrading the highly promoted Keshik in Osaka now, but I forgot to mention this in my report. We just took the city, so I do not know whether Toku strikes back, but I doubt that he has many units left to counter us. I like upgrading highly promoted units, so you have my vote to save some cash and upgrade the units.

In a SP game I would provoke Cyrus soonest. He is the no 1 at the moment. If we get him under control I think we will not have much more trouble on lush island. To go for him we will need a decent number of cats and pikes to get his initial stack down. Hunkering down in Tyre would be my strategy, too. Waiting there to crush his initial stack and then go for him.

On our home island there are several knights in production, so if we get a landing they can be rushed, but I agree that we should keep 4-5 on our home land. Qin is too quiet.

The settler in Karakorum is either to be meant to settle another city on our home island or to ship it over to lush island. There is still a gap between Corinth and Phoenician which is to be settled. I think we want Corinth to produce military from this point on. We will then need two more settlers to fill our home island for the domination limit. I would do this rather sooner than later as we also have to get the pop up in these cities and there is not too much food around in that part of our island.

Regarding the settler in Corinth I was not 100% sure where to settle at the wine. There is also fish around there. I thought of either on the plains W or on the hills E of the wine. Both is fine with me. Even on the Wine might be an alternative. Then the wine is automatically connected, isn't it ? I do not remember.

Take your time for playing. I think we are at a very crucial point in this game now. If we get Cyrus down I think we have the game in the bag.

Definitely, we should settle the unused west of our Home Island - or, before long, somebody will establish a bridgehead there. And let's settle between the wine & fish - perhaps we can exploit both with the same city?

I like the idea of taking Phoencian and then making peace with Toku. The priority after capture would be to rush walls and a castle, so we will not be staking all on our expensively-upgraded, most experienced units. I'd hate to lose that L5 knight defending against a stack of Cyrus' pikemen...

I seem to have started something. :crazyeye:

I'm fine with taking Phoenician. A bit of a risk with Cyrus on our borders but manageable. However I'm rather disturbed about this idea of taking Tyre. I get the impression that this might be fairly soon which is a big :nono: as far as I'm concerned. I know we've been getting away with not too many forces against Toku but Cyrus is another matter altogether.

I would really, really like to see us with one or two decent balanced SoDs before we provoke Cyrus. Knights and keshiks are good for attack but not nearly as good for defence. Cyrus already has guilds so we need pikes. We don't have that many cats either.

We're going to have to leave some respectable forces to deter Toku and beef up the defences of the home island. All of this doesn't leave too much for Cyrus as we currently stand. Bear in mind that Asoka is quite likely to join in as well.

EDIT: I hope I didn't get the wrong end of the stick about the timescale for taking Tyre. Btw I notice that the tech screen doesn't give me any clue at all what Cyrus might research. Does that mean he's even more advanced than we might think?

However I'm rather disturbed about this idea of taking Tyre. I get the impression that this might be fairly soon which is a big :nono: as far as I'm concerned. I know we've been getting away with not too many forces against Toku but Cyrus is another matter altogether.

As I think about this more, I don't think Tyre offers much added risk. If we don't take Tyre, I suspect Cyrus will come after Phoenician. I'd rather give him Tyre as a target so we can get the gold near Phoenician on-line.

Btw I notice that the tech screen doesn't give me any clue at all what Cyrus might research. Does that mean he's even more advanced than we might think?

If he is advanced, then all is lost already. If he is not, we need to knock him back before he gets there. In higher level domination games (where the AI's can hold their own on tech), I see the "knights vs. longbows" era as a prime time to kick AI butt. Once AI gets rifles, then I need Cavs. The good news is there is a pretty big time gap between LBs and rifles. So, once I reach knights, I really try to exploit that time period. I think we need to try our luck on Cyrus before he gets to rifles. If he has rifles already, I think the game can't be won.

Take your time for playing. I think we are at a very crucial point in this game now.

Yes, I agree. I'd prefer to wait until Saturday morning when I'm more rested than Fri night after work.

BTW, this scenario has been a cracking challenge, hasn't it? I usually have a pretty good idea about what to do next, but not in this game. Nothing routine about it...

What victory condition are we playing for?

This point in the game is a crucial balance between building the super Stack of Doom and "strike first, strike hard, no mercy sir".

I choose to remember the wise words:

"Walk on road - walk right side: safe, walk left side: safe, walk middle: sooner or later you get squished like a grape.

Here, you, karate (or Civ): same thing. Either you karate (or attack) do yes, or you karate (or building) do no. If you karate (or science) do 'guess so', then sooner or later you get squished just like a grape"

In other words, decide on a course of action and follow it through 100%.

See you next week.

BTW, this scenario has been a cracking challenge, hasn't it? I usually have a pretty good idea about what to do next, but not in this game. Nothing routine about it...

Yepp, it is. At war with all AIs from the start, so no tech trading. A hammerless start and domination as victory setting. A quite far away big continent making maintenance a big problem. In my opinion it plays much harder than monarch level.

I really wonder why Cyrus was that quiet all the time. Did he send any ground troops, yet ? I cannot remember having seen any from him and his West city towards us is very lightly defended.:mischief:

So are we confident of pulling off a win here then?

As I think about this more, I don't think Tyre offers much added risk. If we don't take Tyre, I suspect Cyrus will come after Phoenician. I'd rather give him Tyre as a target so we can get the gold near Phoenician on-line.

I can see where you're coming from and in principle I support the idea. However, I'm not convinced that we have the forces to pull it off. As I see it the idea would be to take Tyre, absorb the initial counter attack and then start moving out forces to threaten his other cities.

In practice we currently have one (wounded) cat on lush island to take down Tyre's cultural defence [hopefully we should have three cats by the end of your turnset]. If we wait for one cat to take down the defence then Cyrus will have reinforced Tyre. If we attack regardless we'll probably lose 3 or 4 units which will leave us with very few units to withstand the counter attack. Bear in mind that we have a couple of Toku's units to fight off and Phoenician to take as well.

OTOH we have a gold mine by Osaka which should be online in 9 turns. That will also give us time to get some more units. On that point I think it might be a good idea to delay settling that city south of Corinth to save losing more units to garrison it.

So are we confident of pulling off a win here then?

It all depends how the war with Cyrus will develop. I think we are now at the point of the game that will show whether we have a chance to win or not. The next 2 - 3 turnsets will be very crucial.

I can see where you're coming from and in principle I support the idea. However, I'm not convinced that we have the forces to pull it off. As I see it the idea would be to take Tyre, absorb the initial counter attack and then start moving out forces to threaten his other cities.

Taking Tyre will not happen in the turnset of The Hawk. Units will have to heal and we need to get some cats. Phoenician will be target no. 1 and securing Osaka will be the main task for the next set IMO. When we take Tyre we have to be prepared for the counter, so we will need cats and pikes to do that. I see taking Tyre maybe in about 20 - 30 turns. At first we have to take Phoenician and make peace with Toku. Then we can go for Tyre.

We have a constant flow of units and if we upgrade some of our well promoted units I think we can pull it off. If we wait too long Cyrus might be too advanced. Our timeframe is quite narrow and if our war with Cyrus does not run well we are screwed anyway. We now have good amount of offensive units on lush island. When we go for Tyre we will need pikes and cats. I would say we will need 8 - 10 cats and several pikes to counter Cyrus' initial stack.

Congrats on pulling this game back guys.

I suggest the raiding parties are still the way to go with Cyrus. A Knight/pike/mace combo will let you take out his production and villages/towns. A sentry knight would be very usefull as you want to avoid heavily defended towns but you should try and soften him up before trying to take any cities.

Bear in mind that we have a couple of Toku's units to fight off and Phoenician to take as well.

Just to make sure we are on the same page, I would not go after Tyre until we have captured Phoenician and made peace with Togu. At that point, we need minimal units garrisoning anywhere... nobody can come through Togu's borders to attack us. I would expect almost every unit on lush island would head for Tyre, exception being those defending Corinth (which is prone to sea attack). Once our peace treaty expires, we will need to garrison our border towns with a couple of units. Howev