Welcome to your C_IV SGOTM 5 Team Thread. Please use it for all internal team communication, turn logs and discussions. Subscribe to it to receive notifications, and do not visit the other team threads for this game until you have finished. Please also subscribe to the Maintenance Thread for this game, where teams and staff may post non-spoiler information of general interest.

The Game
You are Temujin, Leader of the Mongolian Hordes. You have tired of fighting the Barbarians, and so this time you have decided to join them instead. You will win a glorious victory in this Monarch game, of course, but you are teamed with the Barbarians, and you have to adapt to Barbarian assets and liabilities:


You have no starting techs.
The barbs are your friends, and are fighting on your team.
You will benefit from the Barbarian capability to explore the world in animal and human form.
You can research, but you will also learn techs that the Barbarians learn.
.... And you start off at war with everyone on the planet except the Barbarians. You can make peace with anyone.


The Objective
This Monarch difficulty game is on a Standard size, Gyathaar-special map, at Epic speed, against 7 rivals. All victory conditions are enabled, and the laurels for this contest will be awarded to the teams who achieve the earliest victory date in the game.

Versions
This game will be played in Civilization IV version 1.74, using special HoF Mod 1.74.SGOTM5.

Schedule
Start files for each team will be available on the SGOTM Progress and Results Page (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/submit/civ4sgotm_submission_list.php) at midnight, server local time, at the start of July 25.

I propose that you aim to complete this game in three months, that is by the end of October 2007.

Starting Position
Here's the starting position - click the image below to see a larger version.

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/civ4games/images/sgotm5_start_small.jpg (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/civ4games/images/sgotm5_start_large.jpg)

Map Parameters
Playable Leader/Civ - Temujin of Mongolia
Rivals - 7: China, Japan, India, Arabia, Spain, Persia and Greece
World size - Standard
Difficulty - Monarch
Landform - Special, sort of a fractal archipelago
Environment - Temperate climate, medium sea level
Game Speed - Epic
AI Aggression - Normal
Barbarians - Raging, and teamed with the Mongols
Permanent Alliances - Not Enabled
City Razing - Enabled

Notes

Please visit the Civ4 SGOTM reference thread (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=168439) to check out the rules and procedures to ensure that you are adequately prepared for this game.

Teams will compete for up to four awards - the Gold, Silver and Bronze Laurels for the fastest finishes, and the Wooden Spoons for the lowest scoring finisher. The number of awards will depend on the number of teams.

All teams must play the sponsored variant - awards will be given to teams who achieve victories in the least turns.

All saved game files uploaded to the server are parsed through software that extracts and archives data about your save, including reload count for each turn set.

Please enjoy the game :)

Reporting for duty, team! :)

I have BTS installed now, and so my vanilla CIV is patched up to 1.74.
Looks like we have to apply a special HOF mod, and not the 1.74.001 that is the latest one on the HOF MOD page. (unless my eyes deceive me)

Seems we have a couple of days for discussion before the saves arrive.
Having reported in, I'm actually off to bed soon, as it's midnight here.

It's midday here. Who's in charge here? What do we do next? Let's get this show on the road.

Hi all, checking in.

erikthecelt has asked if we are ok with him signing up to be a dedicated Geezer lurker (he posted this request in the HOF forum). Seems fine to me, anyone have any problem with it?

I have not begun to think about this scenario, been pretty focused on G-Major 13. Just submitted my 5th win today. Been steadily improving, I am hoping for a podium position :) .

However, I don't have time for another try, so its time to switch gears to SGOTM 05. So, here is a thought... in SGOTM 01, we won laurels because we didn't follow the herd. In that session, almost all teams went for Dom. However, we went Diplo, and on that particular map, this turned out to be a good play. I'm wondering if we should try something similar. I'm guessing many teams will go Dom/Conquest, because warmongering is often the fastest way to win. However, given this is a Gyathaar special map, maybe it is set up to make that hard (e.g. islands). Diplo will be impossible since we start at war, but maybe we go for fast culture? Something to think about.

Anyhow, there is time before we start, and we have a long time to finish (Oct.). I'd suggest we take our time early on to make sure we are aligned on strategy.

Looking forward to another go with the Geezers! Remember, Barron's is behind us!

156414

Checking in for another game.


I have BTS installed now


Swine. ;) My copy seems to have delayed by the weather problems.

Turn 1: 4000 BC - 3130 BC (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=232717&page=7#126)
Turn 2: 3130 BC - 2500 BC (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=232717&page=9#166)
Turn 3: 2500 BC - 1900 BC (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=232717&page=10#196)
Turn 4: 1900 BC - 1300 BC (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=232717&page=11#211)
Turn 5: 1300 BC - 850 BC (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=232717&page=12#234)
Turn 6: 850 BC - 565 BC (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=232717&page=13#253)
Turn 7: 565 BC - 400 BC (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=232717&page=14#252)
Turn 8: 400 BC - 250 BC (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=232717&page=14#269)
Turn 9: 250 BC - 100 BC (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=232717&page=15#292)
Turn 10: 100 BC - 50 AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=232717&page=16#301)
Turn 11: 50 AD - 170 AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=232717&page=17#322)
Turn 12: 170 AD - 320 AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=232717&page=19#362)
Turn 13a: 320 AD - 395 AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=232717&page=20#399)
Turn 13b: 395 AD - 470 AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=232717&page=21#402)
Turn 14: 470 AD - 650 AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=232717&page=21#415)
Turn 15: 650 AD - 800 AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=232717&page=22#438)
Turn 16: 800 AD - 935 AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=232717&page=23#456)
Turn 17: 935 AD - 1085 AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=232717&page=24#467)
Turn 18: 1085 AD - 1154 AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=232717&page=25#481)
Turn 19: 1154 AD - 1214 AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=232717&page=25#490)
Turn 20: 1214 AD - 1274 AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=232717&page=25#498)
Turn 21: 1274 AD - 1340 AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=232717&page=26#511)
Turn 22: 1340 AD - 1400 AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=232717&page=26#520)
Turn 23: 1400 AD - 1460 AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=232717&page=27#524)
Turn 24: 1460 AD - 1520 AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=232717&page=27#538)
Turn 25: 1520 AD - 1550 AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=232717&page=28#549)
Turn 26: 1550 AD - 1580 AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=232717&page=28#560)
Turn 27: 1580 AD - 1610 AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=232717&page=29#572)
Turn 28: 1610 AD - 1643 AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=232717&page=30#597)
Turn 29: 1643 AD - 1673 AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=232717&page=31#607)
Turn 30: 1673 AD - 1700 AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=232717&page=31#619)
Turn 31: 1700 AD - 1730 AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=232717&page=32#628)
Turn 32: 1730 AD - 1750 AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=232717&page=33#644)
Turn 33: 1750 AD - 1770 AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=232717&page=33#655)
Turn 34: 1770 AD - 1790 AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=232717&page=34#661)
Turn 35: 1790 AD - 1810 AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=232717&page=34#676)
Turn 36: 1810 AD - 1820 AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=232717&page=35#686)
Turn 37: 1820 AD - 1840 AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=232717&page=35#698)
Turn 38: 1840 AD - 1860 AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=232717&page=36#707)
Turn 39: 1860 AD - 1880 AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=232717&page=36#717)
Turn 40: 1880 AD - 1899 AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=232717&page=37#740)
Turn 41: 1899 AD - 1910 AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=232717&page=38#756)
Turn 42: 1910 AD - 1930 AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=232717&page=39#763)
Turn 43: 1930 AD - 1950 AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=232717&page=39#765)
Turn 44: 1950 AD - 1970 AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=232717&page=39#778)
Turn 45: 1970 AD - 1982 AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=232717&page=40#781)
Turn 46: 1982 AD - 1990 AD (Last) (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=232717&page=40#784)

Hi all, checking in.

erikthecelt has asked if we are ok with him signing up to be a dedicated Geezer lurker (he posted this request in the HOF forum). Seems fine to me, anyone have any problem with it?

No objection from me. I'm assuming he knows this means he can't look at other games? However he needs to post this request in the signup thread so that AlanH knows.


So, here is a thought... in SGOTM 01, we won laurels because we didn't follow the herd. In that session, almost all teams went for Dom. However, we went Diplo, and on that particular map, this turned out to be a good play. I'm wondering if we should try something similar. I'm guessing many teams will go Dom/Conquest, because warmongering is often the fastest way to win. However, given this is a Gyathaar special map, maybe it is set up to make that hard (e.g. islands). Diplo will be impossible since we start at war, but maybe we go for fast culture? Something to think about.

A modified reprise of SGOTM 01 in other words? Interesting thought, especially since we can make peace with the other civs.

Checking in.

Welcome to our new members !

No objection from me if erikthecelt likes to be dedicated lurker.

I have not yet ordered BTS. After the buggy release of the Vanilla version I always wait for some reports first. If I order it at amazon Germany I can get it within 24 hours, but I am not that keen, yet to get it.

I also tried a little more on G-Major 13, but I did not get another suitable map, so I gave up yesterday.

Culture sounds interesting. I cannot remember even trying a culture win, yet. I think I read that we would need at least 6 cities. Obviously Great Artists will be needed. I will have a look at that in the evening.

Anybody played the test map that was posted in the pre-discussion thread ?

erikthecelt has asked if we are ok with him signing up to be a dedicated Geezer lurker (he posted this request in the HOF forum). Seems fine to me, anyone have any problem with it?


No problems at all with erikthecelt. (We are becoming ever more the International Geezers, aren't we? USA, UK, NZ and now Canada.)

Swine. ;) My copy seems to have delayed by the weather problems.

Oh wow. Which bit of our flooded land are you located? We've got some rather wet areas near us, but I am, luckily, the geezer who lives on the hill.
Hope it arrives soon. I've had a bit of a play over the weekend. Some very interesting additions. (Espionage ;) )

Anybody played the test map that was posted in the pre-discussion thread ?

Yes. I've been playing about with the test game a bit. Now, where are my notes? I'll post again in a few minutes when I can retrieve them.

Right! Here goes on my first findings, having played through at least some of the trial game a few times.
I've tried to organise my random and scrambled notes into some kind of rational order.
Apologies for the huge post!

Right from the off

We know everyone.
You are at war with everyone, and they all (initially) refuse to talk.
We have no technologies.


Scores etc

You can't see the barbarians on the scoreboard or the Foreign Advisor screen.
You can't see ourselves on the scoreboard (!)
You can find ourselves in the Victory Conditions screen. We are there as 'Temujin/Barbarian', but always have 0 score.


Aye Carumba!

As previously noted, the test game crashed in flames as soon as we discovered Alphabet. I avoided this in subsequent attempts.


Animal Times

Animals started appearing from turn 6.
You can immediately see the bits of the map where the animals are walking, which aids exploration (in an interestingly random manner). Of course, they will not enter other civs borders, and only appear in parts of the world where there is some fog of war.
Animals do not, of course, attack our units.
We can share a square with an animal. We can walk with lions, but it's kind of frustrating, since they are stupid and won't go when we want to go.


Goody Huts

We cannot pop huts by walking into them.
However, huts can still be popped by expanding borders, or by settling a city beside one.
If you really want to, you can pillage a hut (perhaps to stop someone else getting it when you can't)


AI Relationships

As I said previously, no AI will talk to us at the start.
The less aggressive AIs will start talking after about 8 turns. Asoka was the first in the test game.
The AI attitude gets progressively worse over time.
Soon they are mostly at -11 or so.
Even from -11, Alexander suddenly appeared to offer us peace!
It is quite possible to make peace with the AI, and they get peace with the Barbarians, too, of course.


Barbarians as allies

Normally, barbarians avoid our borders, despite our 'teamed' status.
(However, in one game a bear appeared within our borders! It couldn't cope with this situation, and remained stationary until it vanished some time later)
We cannot enter diplomacy with the barbarians. They do not appear on the Foreign advisor screen.
The first barbarians (human, not animal) started appearing about turn 49.
The first barbarian cities appeared about turn 80.
The barbs attack AI indiscriminately, and lose most of the time. We don't see the battle - just the sudden disappearance of the units.
Barbarians do tech, though not at any great speed.
We get their techs, and they get ours.
Once they have cities, we can enter their City Management screens. From here, we can see what they are researching (although we can't change it)



OK. I might have got some of this wrong, or missed something important, but that was everything I noted.

Strategic thoughts

Having the barbarians as allies is interesting, but not massively useful. They allow us to see lots of random, scattered parts of the map, and the AI movements there, that wouldn't have been available in a normal game.
You can't stop the barbs & animals behaving in their usual stupid manner.
You can decide to research different parts of the tech tree from the barbs, thus sharing your research.
We can bring the barbs up to the point where they have (e.g) axes earlier than they would normally have them. This can provide the AI with an irritating diversion.
Depending on the map layout, there may be several AIs who don't have barbarians near them (due to lack of FOW, I guess). This means we won't see anything of them, and can't use barb attacks against them.
It's worth considering ignoring the barbarians as useful military allies. They are sooo bad.

Oh wow. Which bit of our flooded land are you located? We've got some rather wet areas near us, but I am, luckily, the geezer who lives on the hill.

Thankfully I'm not directly affected by the floods. However a number of train lines and roads were closed by the weather which delayed the post. However BTS was delivered whilst I was at work today. :band: :banana:

Bang goes a large part of the evening. :lol:

Hmmm. Third post. Not good.
(Turns round 3 times. Spits. Throws salt over shoulder)

Anyway. I had some time on my hands today, and in addition to the posting extravaganza, I've been able to try the game out again with the new HOF mod 1.74.SGOTM5.
That seems to work nicely, and removes many of the strangest things I've noted above.
You now appear on the scores, as do the Barbarians.
And we do both get scores, which are totalled together to give our position in the score list.
The crash at Alphabet has been fixed.
There is something odd about the research that is listed against the barbarians in the scores, and the techs that they suddenly give you. These don't match up. However, I wouldn't blame the mod for this. More likely it's something strange about the way barbarians research stuff.

However BTS was delivered whilst I was at work today. :band: :banana:


Oh. Our posts crossed. On this occasion that's good, as you saved me from committing the "3rd post in a row" crime.

Enjoy your evening with BTS. (I haven't seen much of mine today. My copy was stolen by my youngest, who's intent on completing a game of it before I do :()

Anybody played the test map that was posted in the pre-discussion thread ?

I haven't played that one but I've tried a few test maps of my own without too much success. Main points were that my starting position was always down in the south near the tundra, early teching is quite slow (no starting techs makes a big difference) and happiness resources were at a premium.

On the latest I managed to rush and kill Alexander before he got his phalanxes but it took quite a while especially whilst fighting off Ghandhi's raiding parties.

Hopefully Gyathaar will make our starting position half decent although I don't see much production about on the starting screen. :( The-Hawk's idea of culture sounds interesting although we need some decent production and teching to get the wonders before the AI does. Ghandhi/Asoka, Mansa and Cyrus do tend to be a bit fast on that front. Mind you both Ghandhi and Cyrus seemed to be active on the raiding front on my last game. Shades of SGOTM 04. :lol:

Diplo might still be possible. We need to decide if we make peace early or not. Getting a suitable religion early wouldn't hurt.

What patches and mods do I need for this game now?

What patches and mods do I need for this game now?

The first post has details of this as reproduced below:


Versions
This game will be played in Civilization IV version 1.74, using special HoF Mod 1.74.SGOTM5.

This post (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=5715190&postcount=5) from the maintenance thread has a link to the mod. You probably need to update your version of Directx before applying the patch otherwise it will fail to install. The main page has link to it (58MB IIRC).

If you have BTS then it will update DirectX and patch vanilla for you.

I, too, really like The-Hawk's idea of one of the more unpopular victory conditions (in this SGOTM).

Diplo is not entirely out of the question, as you can make peace early with about half of the AI. Experience with the test game has shown me that we can start making peace from about about turn 30 or so. However, I hadn't yet managed to get the AI attitude into the positive figures yet (not that I was trying to...). They continue to carry the -3 for "You declared war on us", offset against the +1 for "Years of peace". I guess if you set your mind to trading, warring on a common enemy etc, this idea might be a goer.

On the other hand, we can go cultural. Nothing about the game set-up seems to be directly against this. I personally have virtually no experience going for cultural victories, but I'm betting we do have some experience within the Geezers team.

Cultural is probably my favourite and most preferred victory condition, so I would support that as a goal, although I have no experience with this in the unique circumstances of this game.

How is the final ranking of results calculated then? Fastest? Highest scoring? Cultural is neither fast nor high scoring, but if there is a prize for fastest cultural then we'd be in with a shot.

If going for cultural, then big picture considerations are:
- city placement is crucial as you definitely need a kick-ass Great Artist farm, as well as 3 well-planned cities to be the Legendary culture cities.
- Wonders need to be carefully planned for maximum benefit and minium pollution of Great Artist pool
- You still need production cities to pump out units to keep up military power
- You need to plan to somehow get 3 religions spread to our cities, so a decision would be required on whether which ones we might want to found
- A decision would also be required on when we wanted to shut down science to focus on culture - this might be based on how precarious our military situation was at the time.
- A big decision is whether or not we plan to take any AI cities by force or not. This might be based on proximity of capitals and holy cities once we get started. An AI capital can be a great Legendary city, but only if you get it early enough. A big issue might be what exactly a "fractal archipelago" is.

Apologies for the huge post!

Not at all, thanks for doing all this scouting. Really good stuff.

The first barbarian cities appeared about turn 80.

I am a little concerned about this. If a barb city pops up near our capital, they may deny us valuable land since we can't attack them. This could be critical in a culture or space attempt.

Did you notice if they only appear in fog? Or, since they are our allies, can they pop up on visible tiles? We might need to fog bust them ourselves to protect our expansion area.

Barbarians do tech, though not at any great speed.
We get their techs, and they get ours.
Once they have cities, we can enter their City Management screens. From here, we can see what they are researching (although we can't change it)
You can decide to research different parts of the tech tree from the barbs, thus sharing your research.

Something tells me there is a differentiator here. If we can figure out their tendancy to tech (what techs they prefer), we might be able to increase our tech rate by going another path. I suspect they prolly suck at teching though, so maybe we need to plow ahead without them.

We can bring the barbs up to the point where they have (e.g) axes earlier than they would normally have them. This can provide the AI with an irritating diversion.

OK, I like this idea... ;) :groucho:

Sorry for being thick but what do I need to do? I read the maintenance thread and did not understand a word of it. Do I just need to install the "special mod"? What will that do to all my other games?

The special mod should do nothing to your current games as it will be loaded if you load our team file. Of course you can also load it manually like the HOF mods, but if you don't do that it just sits there and waits for your SGOTM turns.:)

I hope our other two new members will check in soon. I have pmed them that the game starts tomorrow, so I hope they show up soon.

BTW do we have a volunteer to start us off ? However I think we should take our time before actually start playing.

BTW do we have a volunteer to start us off ? However I think we should take our time before actually start playing.


I'm a bit hesitant about being first up, being one of the new boys. I'd recommend a safe pair of hands getting us going.

As you said, we do need a spot of considering and discussing before we start, even if that means a relaxed kick-off a couple of days after the saves are released. We need to have our overall game plan sketched out, but we also need to examine that start position closely (I haven't yet) and get our early days plan in place. You reckon?

If going for cultural, then big picture considerations are:
- city placement is crucial as you definitely need a kick-ass Great Artist farm, as well as 3 well-planned cities to be the Legendary culture cities.
- Wonders need to be carefully planned for maximum benefit and minium pollution of Great Artist pool
- You still need production cities to pump out units to keep up military power
- You need to plan to somehow get 3 religions spread to our cities, so a decision would be required on whether which ones we might want to found
- A decision would also be required on when we wanted to shut down science to focus on culture - this might be based on how precarious our military situation was at the time.
- A big decision is whether or not we plan to take any AI cities by force or not. This might be based on proximity of capitals and holy cities once we get started. An AI capital can be a great Legendary city, but only if you get it early enough. A big issue might be what exactly a "fractal archipelago" is.

I had another play-through of the trial game last night, this time concentrating on peace, and seeing whether I could head towards either a diplomatic or cultural victory. Sadly, I wasn't single-minded about either of these objectives, so when I saved at about 1500AD I wasn't in any danger of getting either of these victories. However, it did tell me a few things:


We are starting off with no techs at all, and that means the race for an early religion is all but lost from the start.
We still might found one of the later religions, having pulled back the deficit by then.
It was hard to get any other religions to spread to our lands. Finally, I got one because somebody planted a small city in a corner of my land, which I took. It was Islamic, and that spread.
Making peace with most of the AI early (some just won't) meant that I spent most of the game un-bothered by enemy attacks, which allowed me to get on with building.

I am a little concerned about this. If a barb city pops up near our capital, they may deny us valuable land since we can't attack them. This could be critical in a culture or space attempt.

Did you notice if they only appear in fog? Or, since they are our allies, can they pop up on visible tiles? We might need to fog bust them ourselves to protect our expansion area.


I'm fairly sure these cities only popped up in light fog. I've played this game several times now, and we're on a very large island (almost a continent!) with plenty of hiding places. I'm sure the real map will be nothing like it. Mainly the one barb city on our island always appeared in the same place. However, in one game I fog-busted that area and it appeared somewhere else. In another I settled there before they did, and they settled not far from our capital (but in fog iirc).
You're quite right about it denying us valuable land. The prime location the barbs kept settling was right by some gold.


Something tells me there is a differentiator here. If we can figure out their tendancy to tech (what techs they prefer), we might be able to increase our tech rate by going another path. I suspect they prolly suck at teching though, so maybe we need to plow ahead without them.

I played again last night. That's the second time on the new HOF mod. It tells you what the barbs are researching - but that's very misleading. They do research very slowly, but on the other hand they seem to learn some other techs in the meantime - which of course they pass on to us. (I'm going to play the early years again and keep a careful note of which techs they learn. I have a bit of time on my hands today:D)

I mentioned this barb tech-ing behaviour in the Maintenance thread, while discussing the HOF mod, and Gyathaar replied "Barbarians get free beakers per turn in techs that is known by other teams.. and can this way learn techs even without having techs selected as the active tech to research."
Interesting.
Yes! In fact I noticed several times in the Science Advisor that techs were apparently already partially researched!

I'll report back later if I can deduce the barbie's preferred techs.

OK. An update on the barb's teching preferences, based on the autolog from last night.

My tech path (for whatever reasons) was this:
Mysticism - Mining - Polytheism - Agriculture - Animal H - Wheel - Pottery - Writing - Alphabet - Literature - Math - CoL - Compass - Monarchy - Metals - Calendar - Currency - Machinery - Optics

In the meantime, the barbs gave me these techs (on these turns)
Archery (34)
Fishing (53)
Hunting (74)
Masonry (95)
Bronze Working (116)
Priesthood (138)
Sailing (149)
Meditation (175)
Iron Working (199)
Monotheism (226)
Horse Riding (250)
Construction (250)
Theology (317)

It was handy that I avoided many of the tech that the barbs could be expected to pursue (Archery, Bronze, Sailing).

Interesting that they also researched various religious techs, alongside the military and household techs.

Interesting, too, the speed that some of the techs came up. Slow at first, but then roughly 20 tuns, although some of them only 11 turns apart. Then 2 techs the same turn!

Hi, checking in.

Sorry I am a bit late, I didn't know I was assigned. The last time I checked the main thread my status was unassigned and I thought the game was running already.

But now I'm there and ready for action :-)


Thank you, AgedOne, for the testing you have done, this is very valuable data.

We have no technologies.

In my experience not having mysticism doesn't mean founding Hinduism isn't possible. But its a kind of early comitment and a gamble. But without a cultural victory might not be possible.

It is quite possible to make peace with the AI, and they get peace with the Barbarians, too, of course.


Its probably a good idea to make peace with at least some of the peaceful ^^ AIs. War Weariness might be a big problem later on, and some tech-trading is essential in most games, even in isolated starts.

We can bring the barbs up to the point where they have (e.g) axes earlier than they would normally have them. This can provide the AI with an irritating diversion.


This is a interesting idea. And it sound funny. The Bars are still "Raging", after all, and the AIs sometimes have problems with raging barbs even when they have no tech support. Maybe this allows to slow the AIs somewaht down? Our start is already delayed by not having techs. But if it is not possible to win by an early domination (and I doubt that) some well developed AIs usually help increase the tech pace, which is neccessary for a early win.

Thanks, AgedOne for all the testing.

Usually the first player has the task to move the scout a bit to see whether settling in place or moving the settler might be worthwhile. IIRC in none of the SGOTMs we settled in place, so this could be done quite early. After that of course teching and our overall "first" strategy should be agreed on.

The starting position does not look that good to me. Dyes will come workable after Calender and just pigs visible so far, so definitely we have to move the scout first to see whether we can get a better place or whether there are some invisible treasures at that spot.:mischief:

I would move the settler one North on the pigs to scout there and the scout 1W, 1SW to see what is there. South of the scout it looks like a lot of jungle, so I do not think it makes much sense to move the scout South directly.

This is my first succession game, maybe someone more experienced is better suited for the first turn.

I agree, going south doesn't look good.

But I would not move the scout to the pigs, rather one square left to the pigs. There is no information the scout at the pigs would give over the square left (you can't see behind the trees). And for further exploring the scout is positioned worse at the pigs.

So I would move the scout NW two times. If there are food resources + hills in the 3 squares left of the scout, I would probably settle in place.
If not, I would use the settler to look 1 tile NW and the scout to go to SW. If the settler finds seafood (likely) at the second turn, he may return and found a city in the second turn.

In my experience not having mysticism doesn't mean founding Hinduism isn't possible. But its a kind of early comitment and a gamble. But without a cultural victory might not be possible.



Very true (to all 3 statements)!
I just tried the start of the trial game a few times and got varying results.
I was going Mysticism - Polytheism each time, and trying to maximise commerce & research each time.
The start is different from the real game we'll be playing, but the AI list is the same.

I did manage to found Hinduism once. The gamble paid off on that occasion. Turn 34.
On other occasions, Isabella founded it. The earliest was on turn 17! Another time it was turn 28. The difference on the turn that succeeded was that Issy went for Buddhism instead, and no-one else stepped in (fast enough) on the Hinduism route.

We'll really have to sort this out amongst ourselves if we are going for cultural victory. Do we go for a religion? Is it safer going for a later one - Judaism, Confucianism, or even Islam or Christianity?

Whichever way we choose is going to directly affect our early research path. We'll have to postpone vital techs (like Agri, Mining, Animals, Fishing) at the expense of these religious ones. If it doesn't work out, we'll have set ourselves back quite a way.

With Izzi in the game (I didn't notice that when I wrote my first post) founding an early religion might be more difficult than usual.

Additionally, this sets back urgently needed worker/workboat techs for another 34 turns. Ok, since we probably build warriors first the city will grow and this will reduce the time for researching, but not too much and at the cost of production/growth, since there are no floodplains.

But if we go for Mysticism first, there is the option for an early Stonehenge, but I think, this needs a better start position. I remember trying even Stonehenge as the very first build in a monarch game because I had no useful worker techs. The delay in landgrabbing wasn't that big and the early settled prophet was huge.

I need to do some test games :-)

Easy to found is Confuzianism (via Oracle) with comes at an useful tech path and is a useful tech by itself, Taoism en route to Liberalism. By this time one of the older religions has usually spread to my cities.
This would make the absolutly required 3, but for a safe cultural victory 4 religions is better. For me and my playing style at least, when I go for cultural, I usually don't bother with a GA farm and instead use Cottage Spamming and the cultural slider. This way you don't need a single GA :-)

I hardly bother with Christianity or Islam, but sometimes it is possible to found Judaism. But probably not with Izzi in the game and no techs at all.

BTW, we should kill her first.

With Izzi in the game (I didn't notice that when I wrote my first post) founding an early religion might be more difficult than usual.

Additionally, this sets back urgently needed worker/workboat techs for another 34 turns. Ok, since we probably build warriors first the city will grow and this will reduce the time for researching, but not too much and at the cost of production/growth, since there are no floodplains.

But if we go for Mysticism first, there is the option for an early Stonehenge, but I think, this needs a better start position. I remember trying even Stonehenge as the very first build in a monarch game because I had no useful worker techs. The delay in landgrabbing wasn't that big and the early settled prophet was huge.

I need to do some test games :-)

Easy to found is Confuzianism (via Oracle) with comes at an useful tech path and is a useful tech by itself, Taoism en route to Liberalism. By this time one of the older religions has usually spread to my cities.
This would make the absolutly required 3, but for a safe cultural victory 4 religions is better. For me and my playing style at least, when I go for cultural, I usually don't bother with a GA farm and instead use Cottage Spamming and the cultural slider. This way you don't need a single GA :-)

I hardly bother with Christianity or Islam, but sometimes it is possible to found Judaism. But probably not with Izzi in the game and no techs at all.


I'm going to have to do some research on going cultural, if we really are going to go for this. (And of course we must all discuss this and agree on it as a team first) I just have no experience at it at all, and I'm sure I would fail to appreciate many of the more subtle points of the strategy.

Note: I found it easily possible to build Stonehenge in my tests.


BTW, we should kill her first.
Agreed! Izzy is going down! (But then that would always be true ;). I can't stand her.)

Note: I found it easily possible to build Stonehenge in my tests.


Yes, I know its easy to build, but the question is more like: How high is the price? What could we have done with those hammers instead?
Actually, since we are something 30 turns back techwise, the usually best option ("Worker first") is now useless.


Warrior first - Adds almost nothing to future production, exception is a worker steal. But can be used to prevent barb cities stealing our land (fogbusting)

Settler first - The second city will come online much earlier in the game, this will be a gain longterm, but a weaker capital and a slower tech rate short term. Strongly depends on the map.

Stonehenge first - Usually about 40-50 Turns. In terms of production this is 12 warriors, 4 monuments or 1,8 settlers. Since we are a backwards civ and can't build much useful, this is an option too. Requires a tech, so this would probably a warrior+stonehenge build.

I we find fish, researching fishing first and then build a workboat as soon as possible as fast as possible is usually the best start, but this way we wouldn't get any early religions. Which isn't that bad anyway :-)



Agreed! Izzy is going down! (But then that would always be true ;). I can't stand her.)

I really like her music in the late game, though :-)

Nice to see the thread is quite active. :)

BTW do we have a volunteer to start us off ? However I think we should take our time before actually start playing.

I don't mind taking the blame for poor starting moves. :lol: If it's anything like the last SGOTM I suspect I'll be stopping and posting frequently for the first few moves anyway.


I would move the settler one North on the pigs to scout there and the scout 1W, 1SW to see what is there. South of the scout it looks like a lot of jungle, so I do not think it makes much sense to move the scout South directly.


I agree, going south doesn't look good.

But I would not move the scout to the pigs, rather one square left to the pigs. There is no information the scout at the pigs would give over the square left (you can't see behind the trees). And for further exploring the scout is positioned worse at the pigs.

So I would move the scout NW two times. If there are food resources + hills in the 3 squares left of the scout, I would probably settle in place.
If not, I would use the settler to look 1 tile NW and the scout to go to SW. If the settler finds seafood (likely) at the second turn, he may return and found a city in the second turn.

The bit in bold is a bit confusing. :confused: :) (settler?) If we move the settler 1 NW then we can see if we have any sea resources. I would be inclined to move the scout 1 W initially. Whoever's going first can then save and post a pic for the rest of us to have a look at and then decide where we want the scout on the second move. The settler won't be able to move till the next turn under my proposal but I think that's the case for all the other proposals anyway.

Thanks AgedOne for all your testing. :goodjob:

Of all the proposals for first build I don't think I saw barracks? Given that we don't have to worry about barbs the only reason for a warrior as first build is if we have another civ on our island. I'm pretty certain that Gyathaar won't have done that since we're at war ( crosses fingers) so we could build a barracks until we grow to 2.

There's certainly something to be said for Stonehenge, especially the GP points but I agree that it ties up our first city for a long while particularly in the absence of any stone.

In terms of which victory condition to aim for I think it's probably a little bit early to decide until we know what our land is like. I think it's almost certain that we'll need to take down at least one civ in the early stages.

EDIT: That island to the NE is interesting. I think Fishing for an early workboat to go exploring would a good choice for one of our early techs.

Plus Stonehenge is not always that useful if going for a fast cultural victory.

Start
I think a picture is emerging of how we should play turn 1. Settler goes NW. Scout goes W (S is another option, but I'm sure the view from the hill would be swathes of jungle).
Then play stops, a screenshot is posted and we can all have a look.

From Testing:
Had a bit of a laugh at the downside of having the barbarians as team-mates.
I decided to go for the Gt Prophet - fuelled slingshot to CS. You may remember the drill: build Stonehenge, then Oracle. Research Myst, Priest, Medi, Poly, Pott, Writing but NOT (I repeat, NOT) Masonry. Choose CoL or MetalCasting as your freebie from Oracle. When the Gt Prophet pops up, use them to lightbulb CS.

Well, it was all going well. Henge complete. Oracle nearly done. Then our barbarian pals gave me one of their techs. You guessed it. Masonry! Thanks guys! The upshot of this is that the Gt Prophet will allow you to lightbulb Monotheism instead of CS, which is a little disappointing.

The other funny was this:
Completed Oracle, chose CoL as free tech. Was the first to reach it, so founded Confucianism. Which was the holy city? Etruscan! Where? Etruscan. The barbarian city!! Somehow, it may allocate the holy city to any city within your team. I'm sure the barbarians loved it. They soon had a mighty city, but the religion still wouldn't spread to me.

A cautionary tale, I think :(

Well, it was all going well. Henge complete. Oracle nearly done. Then our barbarian pals gave me one of their techs. You guessed it. Masonry! Thanks guys! The upshot of this is that the Gt Prophet will allow you to lightbulb Monotheism instead of CS, which is a little disappointing.

The other funny was this:
Completed Oracle, chose CoL as free tech. Was the first to reach it, so founded Confucianism. Which was the holy city? Etruscan! Where? Etruscan. The barbarian city!! Somehow, it may allocate the holy city to any city within your team. I'm sure the barbarians loved it. They soon had a mighty city, but the religion still wouldn't spread to me.

A cautionary tale, I think :(
:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

On a more serious note I'm quite glad you made those tests before we started the game. Looks like we had better avoid slingshots and founding (later) religions.

The other funny was this:
Completed Oracle, chose CoL as free tech. Was the first to reach it, so founded Confucianism. Which was the holy city? Etruscan! Where? Etruscan. The barbarian city!! Somehow, it may allocate the holy city to any city within your team. I'm sure the barbarians loved it. They soon had a mighty city, but the religion still wouldn't spread to me.

:rotfl:

That is really great ! :rolleyes: Haven't even thought of this. Does it make any sense to go for a religion at all if it is that way ?

That is really great ! :rolleyes: Haven't even thought of this. Does it make any sense to go for a religion at all if it is that way ?

An early religion would be more feasible. I don't think the barbs settle cities particularly early. However if we were thinking of a cultural victory then it might make it rather more difficult.

There's always the option of backdoor diplo. :p

An early religion would be more feasible. I don't think the barbs settle cities particularly early. However if we were thinking of a cultural victory then it might make it rather more difficult.

The first barb cities seem to be about turn 80. Admittedly, this was the first time I'd seen the 'Barbarian Holy City' phenomenon, in several attempts at founding religions, but now I come to think of it, it was the first time I'd founded one after turn 80.

There's always the option of backdoor diplo. :p
Ah yes. How does that go?
Isabella founds Hinduism.
Mongols eat Isabella.
Mongols inherit Hinduism.
:p

I would not move the scout to the pigs

The bit in bold is a bit confusing. :confused: :) (settler?)


I read markh wrong, I read "I would move the scout to the pigs"
Sorry for the noise :-)

Ah yes. How does that go?
Isabella founds Hinduism.
Mongols eat Isabella.
Mongols inherit Hinduism.
:p

More along the lines of become the civ with the biggest pop and vote yourself as diplo winner. :lol:

Of all the proposals for first build I don't think I saw barracks? Given that we don't have to worry about barbs the only reason for a warrior as first build is if we have another civ on our island. I'm pretty certain that Gyathaar won't have done that since we're at war ( crosses fingers) so we could build a barracks until we grow to 2.



Why do you want to build a barracks, when you see no need for it? I didn't mention it for exactly that reason.

Regarding Stonhenge: Don't underestimate it. I am not talking about the culture (this is neglectable for a Cultural Victory), more like a cheap creative trait. But the Great Prophet after 75 turns is huge, it usually allows your tech rate to go up some 20-40% immediatly if settled, and add two hammers on that. If I can lightbulb CS with it, I would do it, but I rather like to settle them for the long term goals.

I just did a test game, SH needs 36 Turns at epic speed if we stay at size 2, 38 if we grow to 3 and some 40+ growing to 4, but this depends on the tiles workable.
This isn't really that long, considering you need about 40 turns for AH and of course 14 to Mysticism. If you queue up a worker immediatly after SH, he will probably come online when you hit AH.
The cost for SH would rather be 14 worker turns, this the time needed fuer Myst, not the 36-40 turns needed to build it, because there is nothing useful to build anyways.
The payoff is after 75 turns, when you get at least permanent +2 H and +5 cash.

A fast cultural victory usually requires some of the following ingredients:
- one or more of Spiritual, Financial, or Philosophical
- good commerce (e.g. a Gold) in capital for racing to religions
- easy access to marble for Parthenon, National Epic, and Sistine Chapel
- a great Great Artist site that can be established and up and running in time for the arrival of Drama

Much as I like the cultural route, I'm not convinced that cultural would be optimal given our starting conditions. This is a pretty important decision because I don't think it's something you want to go into half-heartedly.

Compare this to the military route, where you can overcome geographical handicaps through superior military tactics. In cultural, there are less tactical decisions to be made, so your inherent resources and early decisions have a bigger impact.

Why do you want to build a barracks, when you see no need for it? I didn't mention it for exactly that reason.

I mentioned barracks because we are going to need to attack at least one civ to get some decent land. I will be surprised if Gyathaar gives us room for more than three or four cities. In the early game the only other things to build are warriors, workers and settlers. Since the last two don't allow the city to grow I feel barracks would be a better bet, at least until the city grows to 2 pop.


Regarding Stonhenge: Don't underestimate it. I am not talking about the culture (this is neglectable for a Cultural Victory), more like a cheap creative trait. But the Great Prophet after 75 turns is huge, it usually allows your tech rate to go up some 20-40% immediatly if settled, and add two hammers on that. If I can lightbulb CS with it, I would do it, but I rather like to settle them for the long term goals.


I'm certainly not against it. Largely for the reasons you give. I merely said that it needs to be balanced against our other needs. Obviously we will need to see how many hammers we have for production as well.

We should have either copper or iron on our island so at least we'll have some production.

More along the lines of become the civ with the biggest pop and vote yourself as diplo winner. :lol:

Ah, yes. I should pay more attention. You said backdoor diplo and I was thinking of backdoor culture.

Much as I like the cultural route, I'm not convinced that cultural would be optimal given our starting conditions. This is a pretty important decision because I don't think it's something you want to go into half-heartedly.

As one of those much less experienced in cultural victory games, I am very willing to be led by the judgement of those who are far more experienced. Pleasant though the thought is of achieving a more unconventional victory in this SGOTM, I think we should abandon the idea if the right conditions are not present.

Diplomatic is probably a non-starter (except for the backdoor style mentioned by Sam_Yeager above) since I've failed ignominiously to get any of the AI's attitudes to anything better than 0 / Cautious even after 300 turns of smiling, trading and grovelling.


I mentioned barracks because we are going to need to attack at least one civ to get some decent land.

There's a lot to be said for making a strong military start to the game, regardless of the finish we're aiming for. Gain space, cities, population at the expense of some of our rivals. Then, when sitting comfortably, strike out for our chosen victory condition from a position of power. I'm for it! :D

Warrior first - Adds almost nothing to future production, exception is a worker steal.

No worker steals in this game... AI's start at war, they aren't gonna leave a worker floating around when our warrior shows up.

Some other random comments:

RE: Starting move.

I agree with markh's scout moving W, SW, unless the first move shows more jungle to the south. If so, I would move scout another W or even NW. After scout moves, I think we need to assess before sending the settler off to scout. We may find that one tile SW is the best spot to settle. If so, a move to the pigs or to the NW will require two turns to come back and settle. (Having said that, I am a big proponent of scouting with the settler... a better start location is worth 1-3 wasted turns before settling.)

RE: Starting Build

I almost always build a worker first. However, to someone else's point, given the no-tech start, if there is nothing for the worker to do, no reason to build one first. I would start with a warrior for sure... exploration will be critical to deciding our strategy. Later fogbusting to keep our barbie buds from settling is also important.

RE: To culture or not to culture.

Yep, we clearly need to know the lay of the land before we decide. For culture, we need room to settle three good cities (preferrably four so we can have a GP farm separate from the legendary cities). If we are on a scrawny island that won't support three useful cities, then we'll need to go military. If we are on a major landmass (large enough for Dom), we will have to go military to compete with the other teams. However, a small-medium landmass offers more choices, especially if there are one or two neighbors to supply some cities and maybe a captured religion.

Re: religions and culture.

When I play for culture, I rarely try for early religions. To me, they distract from beelining more important techs. I usually bank on discovering Confusianism and Taoism, and expect 1-3 others to spread to me. (I like to beeline to Philo for Tao. I have a theory - completely unproven - that if you get Philo first, the AI's lose interest, hence delaying their discovery of Liberalism.)

However, AgedOne's discovery about later religions potentially popping over the the barbies is huge. What a revolting outcome that would be. Also, if we are on an island, the chances for religious spread (or capture) diminishes.

RE: How to culture

Cultureboy... I mean... Harbourboy has nailed the major points. Its all about beeline teching and spamming cottages.

RE: Early strategy

I think we want to really focus on science early (did I mention spamming cottages?). This set us up for space or culture. It also sets us up for warmongering if we need to invade another island (early Astronomy). Off the top of my head, the only reason to do something besides early science is if we think we are on a large landmass and want to go quick domination. In this case, heck with science, spam axemen.

RE: By the way

Who the heck is Temujin? Does he have traits?

Later fogbusting to keep our barbie buds from settling is also important.

I don't mean to look as though I'm ignoring all of the rest of your post. I just had to drop a fly (fly? medium-sized stag beetle) in the ointment with something I just discovered.

Barbarians just built a city right next to my sentried scout! This blows away all of my previous notes about fog-busting.

I'm going to check again tomorrow (It's late here, and I may have overlooked something in my dozy state. No work tomorrow, mind!) but it seems it may have been coincidence before that they avoided where I had units standing!

I'll also re-read your post tomorrow. Looks like a sound summarizing of all our varied researches.

Barbarians just built a city right next to my sentried scout! This blows away all of my previous notes about fog-busting.

This is huge... you've earned a year's pay by learning this.

This says we need to spam settlers asap else we risk getting boxed in. Would suck if we need to wait for an enemy AI to capture a barb city so we can capture it back.

My 1,000th post. Thought I'd make it in this thread to commemorate (commiserate) just how much time I have wasted here. If I had spent this time on something productive, just think what I could have achieved.

So who is going to play first? I assume that we can at least do the first 20 moves when the file comes out without making too many decisions about the future.

Hi ol'team. Good luck turning into a barb nation. And don't forget to build a few warriors in the bigining just in case someone's wondering warrior show up by the border while the worker is being built.:rockon: :old:

Sam posted that he would do the first moves. I would not mind either. First we just have to move the settler and scout and post screenshots to decide where to settle, what tech to research and what to build first. All this depends what we find around there. The starting position as it is is not convincing me to settle on spot. I can do the scouting and postingm of the screenshots this evening (in about 10 hours). If someone else wants to do it earlier, post a "got it".

Moving the SETTLER on the pigs is ok ? Scout 1W, 1SW, too ? This seems the best for turn 0 to me. The settler can go W then if the coast shows no signs of seafood.

Congrats HB on the 1.000th post. You worked hard to get it.

I'll do the initial moves this evening, ~ 8 hours or so, after I've sorted out the mod. It was giving me problems this morning but I didn't have time to sort it out then.

Scout W and Settler NW is ok for me. After that Scout W or NW or SW :-)

With no late religions, probably no early religions and less religions spread chances for a cultural victory are diminishing.

I did another test game and noticed that teching is somewhat accelerated, as soon as our barb friends (in human form) spawn: We get an additional 3+ beakers as long as we are researching the same field as our brothers do, so there is no need to spread research to something different, nothing is lost.

Another point: Tech trading was difficult to say at least. The -3 permanent modifier we receive is a big malus.

The develoment of the AIs largely depends on the amount of water: The more water around an AI, the higher the probablity it is being unmolested by our raging friends. Going to peace to early might not be good: The AIs offering peace are generally those who have some problems with barbs (and thus lost units and being somewhat smaller), while those who are getting big fast (those I would like to have peace with) will refuse peace offers because they have lost no units.

This is huge... you've earned a year's pay by learning this.

This says we need to spam settlers asap else we risk getting boxed in. Would suck if we need to wait for an enemy AI to capture a barb city so we can capture it back.

Agreed! We just have to get there first, or it's a total gamble on whether our barb brothers will steal the good spots from us. (Thinks. How shall I spend that sabbatical year? More time for CIV. That's a plus!)



@Sam_Yeager
@MarkH
OK. I'll be beside my PC sometime around 7.5 hours time to see the first turn exploration report :)




I did another test game and noticed that teching is somewhat accelerated, as soon as our barb friends (in human form) spawn: We get an additional 3+ beakers as long as we are researching the same field as our brothers do, so there is no need to spread research to something different, nothing is lost.

Yes! I didn't see this clearly enough to put it into words, but. Yes. There is a kind of shared research going on. Sometimes, when you are both researching the same tech, it says 2 turns to go, and then at end of turn you discover the tech. Like we're pooling our beakers if we are on the same research.

I also agree that tech trading is a pig in this game! The best I managed to get in any of my tests was when I went back to war with someone, stole a small city from them, and then they threw me a handful of tech to make peace.

Ok I've got that mod sorted out now. There seems to be differing ideas on initial moves. As I understand it I move the scout 1 W but what about the settler. Do I


move it 1 N onto the pigs?
move it 1 NW to left of the hill?
leave it where it is and post the pic of what the scout reveals?


I'll wait an hour or so. If no consensus then I'll just move the scout 1 W and post a pic.

Lurker checking in: Good luck and thanks for letting me tag along. My understanding of the Lurker is that they can't view other threads and do not play the save but can comment on the play. Mostly I think I'll be lurking and cheering you on with maybe a few questions about how things are done.

On the Barb tech thing, Gyth pointed out in the maint thread that Barbs get beakers for everyone tech that an AI or player has. The more civ's that have a tech, the more beakers the barbs get for that tech.

Lurker checking in: Good luck and thanks for letting me tag along. My understanding of the Lurker is that they can't view other threads and do not play the save but can comment on the play.

Welcome erik. :) Your understanding of lurker status matches mine. You are allowed to look at the saves as well.

Hi Sam.
On the opening moves, I'm right with The-Hawk when he said:


RE: Starting move.

I agree with markh's scout moving W, SW, unless the first move shows more jungle to the south. If so, I would move scout another W or even NW. After scout moves, I think we need to assess before sending the settler off to scout. We may find that one tile SW is the best spot to settle. If so, a move to the pigs or to the NW will require two turns to come back and settle. (Having said that, I am a big proponent of scouting with the settler... a better start location is worth 1-3 wasted turns before settling.)


So I'd be happy for you to make one or even both of the scout moves, and then post a pic. Especially if you go W-W with the scout, we should know more about the possibility of settling SW, and then we can make a wiser settler move.

I moved the scout 2 W in the end as there was jungle to the S. It may not be too clear on the pic but there is water lapping 2 W ahead of the scout. I suspect the same on the next tile N.


http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k182/mrprab/SGOTM05/Start-4000BCa.jpg


EDIT: I presume the next move is to move the settler N or NW?

Thanks for the shot, Sam_Yeager.
I'm guessing we do still need to see more by moving settler NW.
What we can see now is not by any means a great start, is it?
If it turns out that the best start is 1SW of settler, then we can still reach it the turn afterwards.

I'll wait a bit longer for comments. Partly because I'm checking my hard drive on my Civ PC at present.

Settler N doesn't have any benefits over settler N, so I vote for that. But setteling now in place is fine with me too, as there will be fish in the N, I am pretty sure :-)

Is there a roster? Who is up next?

About barb teching: Barbs seem to have two sources of teching. One is a constant 3 beakers per turn, the other seems to be a random percentage of each tech the other AIs have, depending on the number of AIs. So it is possible to discover two or even three techs (or tech, barb 3 beakers tech + barb tech from other AIs) in one turn.

Settler N doesn't have any benefits over settler N, so I vote for that. So that'll be settler N, then? :D

Actually, is there a possible benefit in NW rather than N? Probably not, but if the land extends to the W or NW would we see it from the NW square, but not the hill?

I guess, in practice, that N is fine. (And we'll see that fish, won't we ;))



Is there a roster? Who is up next?
As I understand it, Sam_Yeager will play the first 20 turns now. We'll get our rota up and running soon, but I'm pretty sure we haven't got one yet.

Settler N doesn't have any benefits over settler N, so I vote for that.


So settler NW?

EDIT: Crosspost with AgedOne.

If it turns out that the best start is 1SW of settler

Surely not, as that would give us un-lighthousable water tiles.

Surely not, as that would give us un-lighthousable water tiles.

Yes, you're right. There's more chance of W-W from the settler being a good start. (Coastal, by the tropical fruit, 2 away from the pigs, beside river and hills.)

I get the uncomfortable feeling that we're going to end up settling where we are now...

So settler NW?


You read my mind :-)

Actually, is there a possible benefit in NW rather than N?

Yes, you will see the square left from the woods, which is not possible from the hill. And if you decide for any reason to settle more in the W, you are closer :-)

You'll all be happy to see the predicted sea resources. :p


http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k182/mrprab/SGOTM05/Start-4000BCb.jpg


I think I'll wait until there is agreement from the rest of the team as to what we do next. This probably means I won't continue until tomorrow evening.

Unless the scout reveals something on the next turn it looks like we may be settling on the original spot. :eek: :mischief:

Ho Hum.

I suppose the scout needs to move W (or SW) to reveal the inevitable sea resource that will tempt us over to the W coast.

Or alternatively, it doesn't reveal anything and we nip back to that lush plains square that looks so tempting. :twitch:

Hi erik. Have fun. Any comments are always welcome.

Thanks for your wishes Htadus. Hope to see you in one of the next SGOTMs again.

I would like to see what is 1W of the scout next. If there is nothing good. I would settle 1SW of where the settler is standing now. We would have the bananas with 3 food and 1 gold directly at our city. In the original spot all immediately available tiles do not really convince me to settle there. In my opinion the bananas is the strongest tile in the beginning here.

Reroll the map :-)


Move the Scout SW, if he doesn't find anything useful, settle the initial spot.

Moved scout as requested by mark.


http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k182/mrprab/SGOTM05/Start-3970BC.jpg


If we go for 1 SW of where the settler is i.e. 1 N of the bananas then what should I be researching and what should I be building?

Right. Thoughts.

Location
1SW from current settler position looks good to me. As MarkH said, the bananas are strong early resource. We will also be coastal, by a river, and will soon have access to the pig/hills. There are 2 forest tiles.

It's not enough for me to turn cartwheels, but it's better than the drab original location.

Building

If we go worker first, there's every chance it will be available before we have any tech to make it useful. Also, city growth of zero.
We could go settler. Again zero city growth for a number of turns. We do get an expansion lead.
We could go for a warrior. City allowed to grow. The warrior is of no real use. The barbs are our friends, and cannot be used for sharpening his skills. There won't be any AI nearby. He'll remain unpromoted a long time.
A barracks is interesting. City growth allowed. Promotions for future units.

So, for me the choice is between Settler and Barracks.


Strategy
Then we're back to the strategic decision of where we're going in this game.


I think diplo may be a non-starter. AI attitude cannot be overcome early enough, if at all.
Culture has problems. Founding religions carries the worry of getting a Barb holy city. AI shun us, so their religions take a long time to spread to us.
Most teams will be heading for a dom / conquest, which makes it a little less appealing to us Geezers, but it might still be the most realistic option.
How about a combined attempt:- early violence followed by a switch to cultural? We get axes and Keshiks. Damage one or two of our nearest AI. Get extra living space at their expense. Then change our priorities to culture. Hopefully, having picked up a couple of religions from our victims. Back home, we've been cottage-spamming.


Research
If we're going early violence, it would be useful to go down the Mining - BronzeWorking - IronWorking path.
(This also gives us the humorous aside of giving our barb brothers swordsmen quite early)
To make use of the land around our capital, we will need to pick up Agriculture, Animal H pretty soon.
We'll also want to get Pottery early on, so we can start them cottages.



All-in-all, I'm very tempted to go Mining - BronzeWorking straight off while building a Barracks. Then go Agriculture and get a Settler or Worker out.

I could be crazy recommending this. :crazyeye: Somebody talk me down, please!

I would wait until tomorrow to continue. Let's see what the others say.

I would settle 1SW at the bananas, build a warrior first and set research towards animal husbandry to get the pigs online. As we are that resourceless I would guess we have either horses or metal in that area.

I usually like to grow cities first before building a settler. Especially here we seem to be surrounded by jungle, so finding a good second spot to settle remains to be scouted. A warrior will be good as MP. As an MP he will never need any promotions, so I do no see a big need for a barracks that early.:)

I usually like to grow cities first before building a settler. Especially here we seem to be surrounded by jungle, so finding a good second spot to settle remains to be scouted. A warrior will be good as MP. As an MP he will never need any promotions, so I do no see a big need for a barracks that early.:)

I think you're making quite a strong attempt to 'talk me down' from my crack-brained scheme :)

I must confess that, under normal circumstances I would always make solid choices for getting my empire up and running. In nearly all of the test games I tried, a warrior was my first build, and Animal H or Agri was the first tech, except for those games where I was trying to found a religion.

(On the other hand, I did try the Barracks + Mining-BW route in my very last trial last night. Not a disaster. Except for my nearest AI neighbours, who were dead just into AD. But that wasn't going to win any prizes either.)

I also think you're absolutely right about finding horses or metals nearby.

I would think that chariots/Keshiks are good for early wide ranging harasment of the neighbours. A beeline to horseriding if you get horses up close would be nice and Barbarian like. :D

You'll have spotty intel from all over the map from the barbs so you may be able to smash and grab workers from the settler spawn especially if you nip in and out the cultural boundries. That will also help with making fog for the raging barbs to spawn in. In this game I think you want to kill as many of the AI fog busters as you can as early as you can. Go for the scouts and the settler parties. Hit and run tactics.

Wow, lots happening already. Just a reminder, I am east coast USA. Most weeknights I won't be able to check the thread until 8:00 PM my time. If you come across any decision points where you want input, it might require an overnight hold by you folks in Europe.

Reroll the map :-)

Yep, only thing good about this start is all the teams have the same one ;) .

I have two problems with settling 1 SW...

1) It would not be a great commerce city, which pretty much rules out a cultural attempt. If we want to keep the culture option available, then we will want to maximize cottages in the capital. If I were playing culture, I would seriously consider 2 S or 1S, 1 SE.

2) It will be a production poor city. Very few hammers if we chop the forests and pasture the pigs. Given this, I would tend to favor 1S, 1SE to bring the jungle hill into play for a mine.

So, while it is very tempting to get the bananas into the initial box, I think it weakens the city in the long run.

Oops, I have to run. I'll come back later this evening and weigh in on the techs and builds.

Unless there are metal and horses around, what we can say here is that the start position does not instantly support any ambitious early game gambits.

I say we aim for some reasonably stronng military position in the early years, because we have no idea how close anyone else is, or how aggressive they are going to be.

I would settle 1SW at the bananas, build a warrior first and set research towards animal husbandry to get the pigs online. As we are that resourceless I would guess we have either horses or metal in that area.

As I mentioned in the previous post, I am not too excited about 1SW (low commerce, low hammers). I agree there might be metal or horses in the area, yet another reason to settle inland and cover more ground.

I do agree with mark's tech and build suggestion. Warrior allows our pop to grow. AH to get the pigs on line... and maybe show us some horses for Keshiks.

That will also help with making fog for the raging barbs to spawn in. In this game I think you want to kill as many of the AI fog busters as you can as early as you can.

Another clever idea, all the more reason to spin up some Keshiks.

Right it looks as though I should head for Agri & AH for tech and warrior -> Worker for initial builds if I understand the previous comments correctly.

Where to settle still does not have complete consensus. Mark's suggestion of 1 SW gives us a coastal city which helps on an archipelago map. However this spot is unpopular with The-Hawk who argues that it will be neither a good commerce city or production city. His suggestion for a production city is 1 S or 1 SE (our original spot!) to bring the jungle hill into play.

Personally I tend to prefer production over commerce for the capital as it normally has to build so much in the early game. I won't be playing until this evening ~ 12 hours. It would be nice if we can come to some decision on where to settle by then.

EDIT: How many turns should I play? 20? An initial roster would be good as well. :)

Well, I am not excited about any spot there. :) All three locations are not very attractive.

drhirsch and Hawk are for 1SE. I could go with that as the bananas will come into range after the first border expansion.

Sam, you can play 20 or even 30. There will not be much to do anyway and I think we are set for initial research and build order.

1st try of a roster :

Sam, our starter
drhirsch
Harbourboy
AgedOne
markh
The-Hawk
Pariah (skipped until he reports being available)

Is that ok for everybody ? Any wishes ?

Settling SW is simply to much ocean in the fat cross for my taste. And it denies the plains and one forset, two of the rare productions squares we have.
Settling SE delays the bananas for 7 turn, this is 7 food less or 7 commerce less if we decide to go for settler first.
And if there is a resource popping after AH, BW, IW it could be on the east coast.

Is that ok for everybody ? Any wishes ?

If I meet any civs I assume I don't make peace?

I think we're misreading what The-Hawk was recommending. He's saying 1S, 1 SE which = the Plains square. This brings the jungle hill to the SE into play later on.

If I meet any civs I assume I don't make peace?

You have; and they won't! :)

2 S or S+SE: This would be a non coastal city, one tile away from the sea. Not good on a archipelago map, IMHO.

If the AI asks for peace (which will happen after they lose units), i would not take it, we need to know more first.

If I meet any civs I assume I don't make peace?

No, take them out. :joke:

Despite my leanings towards a 'guns, not food' strategy last night (Barracks, Mining - Bronze) I'd just like to state that I am happy with the more sensible one being advocated by most now: Warrior, AH.

(I'd also remind everyone that we'll probably be given Archery by the barbs around turn 35, for what it's worth.)

That sounds good, but will we need to research hunting ourselves before or will we get this automatically, too. It would be weird if we would get archery without having the prerequisite (hunting). :crazyeye:

Maybe we should wait until Hawk comes online again and states whether he meant the original starting position when he said 1SE. I do not think we should hurry now. No team has started, yet, so we also should take our time.;)

That sounds good, but will we need to research hunting ourselves before or will we get this automatically, too. It would be weird if we would get archery without having the prerequisite (hunting). :crazyeye:

Maybe we should wait until Hawk comes online again and states whether he meant the original starting position when he said 1SE. I do not think we should hurry now. No team has started, yet, so we also should take our time.;)

I quite agree. Let's relax, chat about the options, but do nothing irreversible for a few hours. I think it's about 4am for Hawk right now, so we won't hear anything from him for 4-5 hours if he pops in at breakfast time, 16 hours if its the evening.

btw, in at least one of my test games I did get presented with Archery before I researched Hunting. Strange world :crazyeye:

I hate cities that have unlighthousable coastal tiles.

If I remember right, you will get hunting from the barbs too, and quite early. Anyway: You will sure have archery in the early game, without ever investing in hunting or archery.


A try for a early general plan:

Research Farming-AH. Build warrior, as soon as we are at pop 2, switch to settler. This unusual start allows to research the
necessary worker techs, so our worker isn't unemployed later.

Build worker. Research Mining-BW, mainly for whipping. We need to whip good and often, because we seriously lack production. This will turn our food into hammers, so: Farm the bananas and get the pigs online.
Second city should be founded around this time.

Wheel-Pottery: An early granary tends to be quite useful for whipping purposes. Enables cottages.

Build barracks and THEN CRUSH IZZI :-)
And since our second city is founded on stone, we will get stonhenge too :-)


Somebody wrote earlier, he likes to let the city grow before building a settler or worker. This may be true for a standard start, because this shortens the build time somewhat, and during growth the hammer might be invested in somethin useful.

But we simply don't have much good tiles to work on (because of the spot and the lacking worker techs) and we have nothing useful to build, so a 3-4 pop city early has no benefits.

Edith said, it might be useful to finish the warrior for scouting :-)

What stone? Have I gone blind or am I looking at the wrong map?

What stone? Have I gone blind or am I looking at the wrong map?

If you believe in it strongly enough . . . the mind makes it real! :lol:

Yes, you have to believe in the Great Prophet.

The Great Prophet will appear! He will provide us with stones!
No. Wait!
The Gt Prophet is a time-traveller who will provide the stone that will inevitably result in his own appearance, years later!

If you believe in the Gt Prophet strongly enough, you can almost feel where the stones are . . . "On a hill, surrounded by forests, 4 to the south and 6 to the west of the capital"

(If that turns out to be true, I'll have to resign from the team :))

What stone? Have I gone blind or am I looking at the wrong map?

Yeah, obviously they are playing a different map than we do.:lol:

Ok, you know where the stones are, but I would be interested where the Gt Prophet is seeing horsies and copper. :crazyeye:

I thought a little bit about the early settler and I remember that we should take the good spots asap before the barbs spoil our city cites. Good point. Our scout has some work to do.

The Gt Prophet says, cryptically, that we shall find horse where we look, for sometimes what we desire most is hidden in plain sight.
He also prophesies that we may have to fight, in order that we may fight more powerfully.

I thought a little bit about the early settler and I remember that we should take the good spots asap before the barbs spoil our city cites. Good point. Our scout has some work to do.


Yes. It seems the only way to keep the barbs off the spots they desire is to settle there first.

OK, back to the serious matter at hand.
I've calmed down a lot, and now consider:

Settling on the original start square.
Researching Animal Husbandry.
Start building a warrior. (Switch to a settler once capital grows to size 2)

to be the option I would vote for.

The capital will be coastal, but not have an excess of sea squares. It will have immediate use of the pigs, 3 forest squares and 2 river. After expansion we have the bananas, another 4 river squares, the silk and a bunch more coastal squares.

Animal H will let us use the pigs, and see any horses that are nearby.

The warrior build allows the city to grow (as would a barracks) and provides MP for later.

The more I think about it the more The-Hawk's suggestion of the plains tile sounds better. I can't say that it fills me with great joy but none of the alternatives are that great anyway. Settling away from the coast is not intuitive on this type of map. However it's going to be a while before we can make use of the coast anyway as we need to acquire Fishing at a minimum before we can build any naval units. We just need to make sure our second city is on the coast.

Do we wait until The-Hawk confirms that he meant the plains tile or do we go for it anyway?

In terms of builds are we still agreed on Warrior -> Worker first? Or do we want settler as the second build? If so then we might be better researching Mining before Agri as we won't have a worker to use the techs. Bear in mind that we need IW before we can chop jungle IIRC.

If we're intending heavy whipping then Pottery for granaries might be a good idea. Is it worth me moving the scout SE to see what's there or doesn't it make any difference?

The more I think about it the more The-Hawk's suggestion of the plains tile sounds better. I can't say that it fills me with great joy but none of the alternatives are that great anyway. Settling away from the coast is not intuitive on this type of map. However it's going to be a while before we can make use of the coast anyway as we need to acquire Fishing at a minimum before we can build any naval units. We just need to make sure our second city is on the coast.

Do we wait until The-Hawk confirms that he meant the plains tile or do we go for it anyway?

In terms of builds are we still agreed on Warrior -> Worker first? Or do we want settler as the second build? If so then we might be better researching Mining before Agri as we won't have a worker to use the techs. Bear in mind that we need IW before we can chop jungle IIRC.

If we're intending heavy whipping then Pottery for granaries might be a good idea. Is it worth me moving the scout SE to see what's there or doesn't it make any difference?

I'm certain The-Hawk was referring to the plains square. He mentioned bringing the jungle hills square within range, which would not be the case if he meant the original square.

I think this is a reasonable square, with the only drawback being that it isn't coastal. Some of our team appear to be dead set against settling away from the coast. (I won't try to state their arguments for them.)

The one thing I would say about that is that if we intend to kill an AI early on we obviously need a sea-port to move our troops abroad.

My research preference is now for AH as soon as possible, for pigs and horses. Previously, though, I was after us getting Mining first en route for BW, but that's probably neglecting city development too much.

The one thing I would say about that is that if we intend to kill an AI early on we obviously need a sea-port to move our troops abroad.

Whilst this is true the point is moot until we acquire Sailing and have enough productive capacity to build enough galleys and military. With our current land this will be a fair while even if we pop copper and iron in our BFC.


My research preference is now for AH as soon as possible, for pigs and horses. Previously, though, I was after us getting Mining first en route for BW, but that's probably neglecting city development too much.

My point was that it depends on what we want for our second build. If it's a settler then we lose nothing by researching Mining first. If we are still going for a worker for the second build then I agree that going for Agri first makes sense.

Whilst this is true the point is moot until we acquire Sailing and have enough productive capacity to build enough galleys and military. With our current land this will be a fair while even if we pop copper and iron in our BFC.
I'm actually fine about settling inland. The ones I think will find it more unacceptable are drhirsch, who has said this earlier, and Harbourboy, who hates unlighthousable coastal squares (see, Harbourboy, I do pay attention sometimes)

My point was that it depends on what we want for our second build. If it's a settler then we lose nothing by researching Mining first. If we are still going for a worker for the second build then I agree that going for Agri first makes sense.
Yep. I see your point.
I think we can afford to go for an early settler in this game. There should be no threats in the early turns. As long as our capital is productive enough to be able to build one, it's OK. And we grab our second city spot ahead of the barb friends.

If our second city is coastal, then that problem is cleared up also. :)

Yes, I think settling on the plain square would hurt our city mid- and longterm.
Besides, we won't get automagically trade routes as soon as sailing comes in.

I think generally it is better to research deep into the tree, not flat, because chances are, you will get the cheap techs for free.

So you can do either Mining-BW or Agri-AH first. Im am more comfortable with the latter, it guarantees our worker can hook up the pigs, as soon he gets out. Assuming a Warrior-Settler-Worker build order :-)

Unless you hear otherwise from me, it is usually safe to assume that I agree with whatever The-Hawk last proposed, due to the awe in which I hold his recent Hall of Fame exploits.

I believe that this starting position has been specifically designed so that there are no obviously good spots to settle. I guess another option is wait another turn and move the scout a bit further. If it’s anything like WOTM7, then the killer city spot is more than 3 tiles from the starting position. I know I am a big fan in most games of just settling in place, but one or two turns of inactivity at the start can easily be made up if it means a better location. That’s a big “if” though.

Sorry about the confusion. Yes, I meant the plains tile 1S and 1SE of the settler. All things considered, still my 1st choice, it gives us 12-13 commerce tiles (cottages or dyes) depending on whether we mine or cottage the jungle hill.

However, this is still not a great start, and I'm happy to go with the consensus. If folks would prefer a coastal tile versus inland, I would say my second choice is the original location (1 SE of settler). This still leaves 10 commerce tiles (cottages and dyes). North of bananas is only 7 commerce tiles.

We need to whip good and often, because we seriously lack production.... An early granary tends to be quite useful for whipping purposes. Enables cottages.


If we do settle the original spot, then we need to keep this in mind. BW needs to come quickly after AH so that we can whip.

And we grab our second city spot ahead of the barb friends.

and...

I thought a little bit about the early settler and I remember that we should take the good spots asap before the barbs spoil our city cites. Good point. Our scout has some work to do.

Yes, we need to keep reminding ourselves that early expansion is critical. If we are on a small island, a barb city in a good spot would be really bad.

THEN CRUSH IZZI.

Only after we crush Alex. I HATE Alex. PS. Sorry should have warned you all before. I am a reasonably rational player... until Alex shows up in a game. Then I revert into a mindless Alex-killing machine. You might need to slap me and remind me that the goal is winning, not obliterating Alex. ;)

due to the awe in which I hold his recent Hall of Fame exploits.

Thanks! It was a real thrill to beat Moonsinger in a tough Gauntlet, I hold her up as one of the real elite players.

Ok, I'll settle the original spot. :crazyeye: Tech order will be Agri, AH, Mining & BW. The reason for the long tech order is that the barbs may gift us some techs. Build order is Warrior -> Settler -> Worker unless I hear to the contrary.

On to more important matters: we are currently running second in overall post count. Surely we can at least win the award for most posts by a SGOTM5 team!

Anyway, city placement is one of the weakest aspects of my game, so I don't really have a strong opinion on the matter.

On to more important matters: we are currently running second in overall post count. Surely we can at least win the award for most posts by a SGOTM5 team!

IIRC Murky Waters keep winning the award for most posts :( Besides doesn't going for that show a lack of ambition? :p The fact that both CFR and CRC are in this SGOTM is neither here nor there. :mischief:

Ok, I'll settle the original spot. :crazyeye: Tech order will be Agri, AH, Mining & BW. The reason for the long tech order is that the barbs may gift us some techs. Build order is Warrior -> Settler -> Worker unless I hear to the contrary.

OK. Go for it!

(I'm also interested to see our first snippets of the world revealed at turn 6, when the first animals start spying for us)

On to more important matters: we are currently running second in overall post count. Surely we can at least win the award for most posts by a SGOTM5 team!

Anyway, city placement is one of the weakest aspects of my game, so I don't really have a strong opinion on the matter.

Just doing my bit for our post count :D

I noticed that the new team (Misfits) were the first to make a save - yesterday they put their 3400BC up on the board - and yet they had only made 33 posts (iirc) in their team thread. That's definitely all action and no chat. (Can't understand it meself)

Murky Waters are the blabbermouths of the bunch. 139 posts to our 114. And they haven't reached their first save yet either.

Murky Waters are the blabbermouths of the bunch.

As I posted earlier Murky Waters do tend to be rather wordy. Somewhat unfairly they often get rather more views as well. :( As if quantity should be more valued than quality. :D

@Sam_Yeager
By the way, when do you imagine that you'll be playing out your next moves?
This evening?

@Sam_Yeager
By the way, when do you imagine that you'll be playing out your next moves?
This evening?

Late afternoon/evening (ish). Suffering Civ pangs are we?:lol:

Late afternoon/evening (ish). Suffering Civ pangs are we?:lol:

:lol:
Yes!
But t'wasn't really why I asked.
I've been at home this week, moving several tons of stones/rocks into the back garden (prison chain gangs come to mind). I'll be doing some more today, and was wondering when to check back in.
If I get bored, I can have another peek at BTS ;)

Part way through my turn. Most of our land looks like jungle. Toku, Cyrus & Izzy are on the large island to the E. Saladin is on the island to the S and is reachable by galley.

Should I still go for settler next & then worker? I've uploaded the current save to this thread so you can see the current situation.

Save 3850 BC (http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/79775/Temujin_BC-3580.Civ4SavedGame)

Interesting!
Firstly, does everyone have 0 score on your game in progress? They do on the savegame when I load it, but I think this is the mod problem that (I think) Gyathaar mentioned in the maint thread - except he referred to it happening on 4000BC. Looks like it happens each time a save is loaded. No worries, though.

Love the lions in the capital :lol: . That never happened to me in trials.

As you said, the land is pretty awful, unless the much anticipated horses and metals are revealed. That'll change things a bit. Otherwise, perhaps we should live elsewhere ;)

The Arabs seem to be the closest, unless the little island to the NE leads on to anyone, or anything interesting is revealed from the SE of our island.

Fractal archipelago seems to mean "We get the cruddy little island, while several AI share large lush continents!"

As you said, Izzy, Toku and Cyrus are sharing a big land mass half a world away to the E. Add Asoka to that. I'm sure he's up to the NE of the same mass.

Alexander seems to be just to their West (I can see by zooming way out and turning on cultural shading) Can't tell if he's connected to their continent, or offshore on his own.

What do we make of our little land? So far we can only see these resources that are not within the range of the capital:
3xSilks; Banana; Rice.
The only place that looks like a possible city2 is down at the far end, where we could place it to include rice+silk+banana+hill. Not great.

I'm intrigued by the grassland patch in the centre that runs W-E and has silks at the E end. It's an unusual sight to have this kind of clearing in the jungle. I get the feeling other resources might be revealed here - or my psychic powers may be misfiring.

In answer to your question - settler or worker next? - I am more inclined to change my mind now and go for a worker. We can work the bananas and pigs by the time the worker's out. Remember the barbs won't steal any city sites for another 65 turns or so. Long before then we should know if there are horses around, and we can nip in and settle there before them.

PS. I think Izzy has popped a hut and released barbs :)
In the central area of the big continent, there are 2 barb warriors - on turn 14!
One of Izzy's units seems to be legging it to the south. :lol:

Interesting!
Firstly, does everyone have 0 score on your game in progress? They do on the savegame when I load it, but I think this is the mod problem that (I think) Gyathaar mentioned in the maint thread - except he referred to it happening on 4000BC. Looks like it happens each time a save is loaded. No worries, though.

I'm pretty certain everyone has a score in my game. Don't have the game open at present to check.


In answer to your question - settler or worker next? - I am more inclined to change my mind now and go for a worker. We can work the bananas and pigs by the time the worker's out. Remember the barbs won't steal any city sites for another 65 turns or so. Long before then we should know if there are horses around, and we can nip in and settle there before them.

I've been thinking further and wonder whether I should get a settler down south in case Saladin tries to settle there. On balance though I doubt that he's likely to settle that early. I'll probably go for worker next.

I'm pretty certain everyone has a score in my game. Don't have the game open at present to check.

I'm pretty sure it's this problem that I'm seeing: here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=5726587&postcount=34)
I tried loading one of my trial game saves and the same thing happened. However, it seems the problem goes away after you end turn. Looks like it'll be with us throughout this SGOTM each time we hand a save on to the next player.

I've been thinking further and wonder whether I should get a settler down south in case Saladin tries to settle there. On balance though I doubt that he's likely to settle that early. I'll probably go for worker next.

I can't see Saladin planting his second city overseas, so I don't think we have too much to worry about. If he does think of settling there before we do, I vote we take his city off him - and then kill him!

4000 BC - 3130 BC

Temujin glared at his advisors. "We've spent 30 years camping here whilst our scouts explored the lands near here. And now you tell me this spot is the best place to build a city?".

"Great despot Temujin", said his senior advisor in a quavering voice, "The land in this region is not nearly as good as expected. Even this spot is not that good. It's just less bad than other places."

"Very well", growled Temujin, "so be it. For your sake, and your neck, this had better be the right decision!" And so Karakorum was founded. First priority was to build some military protection. Looking at the fertile land it was decided to research a way to make use of it.

Scouts were sent to explore Temujin's new dominion. Temujin's barbarian allies were instructed to explore the world. Periodic barbarian messengers told of the discovery of a large and lush island, continent sized, to the east of Temujin's island. To make matters worse they informed him that this lush land was inhabitated by some of his worst enemies, namely Tokugawa, Isabella, Asoka and Cyrus. Temujin's temper was not helped by the discovery of large amounts of jungle in his lands. A passing traveller told of the establishment of a religion called Buddhism by Asoka before his untimely demise at the hands of Temujin's executioners.

Barbarian allies told of the discovery of Saladin on an island to the south of Temujin's lands. Following a discussion with his advisor about the extensive jungle Temujin decided that it was better to work the existing land prior to establishing a new city. Towards the end of Temujin's reign scouts discovered gold and stone in the hitherto unexplored SE portion of his island.


http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k182/mrprab/SGOTM05/TemujinLands-3130BC.jpg

Turn saves (http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/79775/Temujin_4000BC-3190BC.zip)

EDIT: Looks like I got the number of turns wrong. Oh well, the next player up can play an extra turn.

EDIT 2: All the scores will read zero when you load the save. The correct scores re-appear once the end turn button is pressed. Obviously a glitch in Gyathaar's mod.

Roster

Sam - just played
drhirsch - UP
Harbourboy - on deck
AgedOne
markh
The-Hawk
Pariah (skipped until he reports being available)

Nice writeup, Sam. :goodjob: You want to write a spoiler ?

I have not yet patched my game, so I cannot load the save, yet. Will do that tomorrow. Our lands do not look that beautiful. I think we have to do some island hopping. :hammer:

I changed the build order to get a worker first because in my opinion, at the time, there was no really suitable spot for a settler. In addition I felt that the settler would build faster if we build a farm with the worker whilst waiting for AH. Hopefully the rest of the team won't think that was too much of a :smoke: move.

Now that the island has been more thoroughly explored it looks like there are only two spots worth settling until we get IW. The one down to the SW is IMHO only really worth settling to stop Saladin going there. The spot by the gold and stone looks far more desirable. However I would suggest that we road down to there before we found a city to minimise maintenance costs.

You want to write a spoiler ?


That's been a bit of a disaster area for Geezer's for the last few games. :( I'll think about it but I would prefer not to do it.

That's been a bit of a disaster area for Geezer's for the last few games. :( I'll think about it but I would prefer not to do it.

I was just joking. The overall spoiler writing was quite light. I do not see any reason to write one at all.

Worker is fine with me.:goodjob: We should find a good production spot to crank out units. After the worker we can build a settler to claim that spot.

Will download and play this evening.

Before we get ahead of ourselves... let's look at the big picture. I think we see enough to pick a victory condition and develop our grand strategy (this is the nice part of barb allies). If we are going to finish near the top, we need to develop a strategy and focus on it. For example, depending on our victory condition, we might not want to invade Saladin at all (ever). I think we might even change our choice for next tech! (see below)

Seems obvious to me that two victory conditions are bad options:

Culture: Culture win looks unlikely. Our capital is not a great legendary city with all of its ocean tiles. There is