Welcome to your C_IV SGOTM 5 Team Thread. Please use it for all internal team communication, turn logs and discussions. Subscribe to it to receive notifications, and do not visit the other team threads for this game until you have finished. Please also subscribe to the Maintenance Thread for this game, where teams and staff may post non-spoiler information of general interest.

The Game
You are Temujin, Leader of the Mongolian Hordes. You have tired of fighting the Barbarians, and so this time you have decided to join them instead. You will win a glorious victory in this Monarch game, of course, but you are teamed with the Barbarians, and you have to adapt to Barbarian assets and liabilities:


You have no starting techs.
The barbs are your friends, and are fighting on your team.
You will benefit from the Barbarian capability to explore the world in animal and human form.
You can research, but you will also learn techs that the Barbarians learn.
.... And you start off at war with everyone on the planet except the Barbarians. You can make peace with anyone.


The Objective
This Monarch difficulty game is on a Standard size, Gyathaar-special map, at Epic speed, against 7 rivals. All victory conditions are enabled, and the laurels for this contest will be awarded to the teams who achieve the earliest victory date in the game.

Versions
This game will be played in Civilization IV version 1.74, using special HoF Mod 1.74.SGOTM5.

Schedule
Start files for each team will be available on the SGOTM Progress and Results Page (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/submit/civ4sgotm_submission_list.php) at midnight, server local time, at the start of July 25.

I propose that you aim to complete this game in three months, that is by the end of October 2007.

Starting Position
Here's the starting position - click the image below to see a larger version.

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/civ4games/images/sgotm5_start_small.jpg (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/civ4games/images/sgotm5_start_large.jpg)

Map Parameters
Playable Leader/Civ - Temujin of Mongolia
Rivals - 7: China, Japan, India, Arabia, Spain, Persia and Greece
World size - Standard
Difficulty - Monarch
Landform - Special, sort of a fractal archipelago
Environment - Temperate climate, medium sea level
Game Speed - Epic
AI Aggression - Normal
Barbarians - Raging, and teamed with the Mongols
Permanent Alliances - Not Enabled
City Razing - Enabled

Notes

Please visit the Civ4 SGOTM reference thread (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=168439) to check out the rules and procedures to ensure that you are adequately prepared for this game.

Teams will compete for up to four awards - the Gold, Silver and Bronze Laurels for the fastest finishes, and the Wooden Spoons for the lowest scoring finisher. The number of awards will depend on the number of teams.

All teams must play the sponsored variant - awards will be given to teams who achieve victories in the least turns.

All saved game files uploaded to the server are parsed through software that extracts and archives data about your save, including reload count for each turn set.

Please enjoy the game :)

Reporting for duty, team! :)

I have BTS installed now, and so my vanilla CIV is patched up to 1.74.
Looks like we have to apply a special HOF mod, and not the 1.74.001 that is the latest one on the HOF MOD page. (unless my eyes deceive me)

Seems we have a couple of days for discussion before the saves arrive.
Having reported in, I'm actually off to bed soon, as it's midnight here.

It's midday here. Who's in charge here? What do we do next? Let's get this show on the road.

Hi all, checking in.

erikthecelt has asked if we are ok with him signing up to be a dedicated Geezer lurker (he posted this request in the HOF forum). Seems fine to me, anyone have any problem with it?

I have not begun to think about this scenario, been pretty focused on G-Major 13. Just submitted my 5th win today. Been steadily improving, I am hoping for a podium position :) .

However, I don't have time for another try, so its time to switch gears to SGOTM 05. So, here is a thought... in SGOTM 01, we won laurels because we didn't follow the herd. In that session, almost all teams went for Dom. However, we went Diplo, and on that particular map, this turned out to be a good play. I'm wondering if we should try something similar. I'm guessing many teams will go Dom/Conquest, because warmongering is often the fastest way to win. However, given this is a Gyathaar special map, maybe it is set up to make that hard (e.g. islands). Diplo will be impossible since we start at war, but maybe we go for fast culture? Something to think about.

Anyhow, there is time before we start, and we have a long time to finish (Oct.). I'd suggest we take our time early on to make sure we are aligned on strategy.

Looking forward to another go with the Geezers! Remember, Barron's is behind us!

156414

Checking in for another game.


I have BTS installed now


Swine. ;) My copy seems to have delayed by the weather problems.

Turn 1: 4000 BC - 3130 BC (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=232717&page=7#126)
Turn 2: 3130 BC - 2500 BC (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=232717&page=9#166)
Turn 3: 2500 BC - 1900 BC (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=232717&page=10#196)
Turn 4: 1900 BC - 1300 BC (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=232717&page=11#211)
Turn 5: 1300 BC - 850 BC (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=232717&page=12#234)
Turn 6: 850 BC - 565 BC (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=232717&page=13#253)
Turn 7: 565 BC - 400 BC (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=232717&page=14#252)
Turn 8: 400 BC - 250 BC (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=232717&page=14#269)
Turn 9: 250 BC - 100 BC (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=232717&page=15#292)
Turn 10: 100 BC - 50 AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=232717&page=16#301)
Turn 11: 50 AD - 170 AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=232717&page=17#322)
Turn 12: 170 AD - 320 AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=232717&page=19#362)
Turn 13a: 320 AD - 395 AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=232717&page=20#399)
Turn 13b: 395 AD - 470 AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=232717&page=21#402)
Turn 14: 470 AD - 650 AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=232717&page=21#415)
Turn 15: 650 AD - 800 AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=232717&page=22#438)
Turn 16: 800 AD - 935 AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=232717&page=23#456)
Turn 17: 935 AD - 1085 AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=232717&page=24#467)
Turn 18: 1085 AD - 1154 AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=232717&page=25#481)
Turn 19: 1154 AD - 1214 AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=232717&page=25#490)
Turn 20: 1214 AD - 1274 AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=232717&page=25#498)
Turn 21: 1274 AD - 1340 AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=232717&page=26#511)
Turn 22: 1340 AD - 1400 AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=232717&page=26#520)
Turn 23: 1400 AD - 1460 AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=232717&page=27#524)
Turn 24: 1460 AD - 1520 AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=232717&page=27#538)
Turn 25: 1520 AD - 1550 AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=232717&page=28#549)
Turn 26: 1550 AD - 1580 AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=232717&page=28#560)
Turn 27: 1580 AD - 1610 AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=232717&page=29#572)
Turn 28: 1610 AD - 1643 AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=232717&page=30#597)
Turn 29: 1643 AD - 1673 AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=232717&page=31#607)
Turn 30: 1673 AD - 1700 AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=232717&page=31#619)
Turn 31: 1700 AD - 1730 AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=232717&page=32#628)
Turn 32: 1730 AD - 1750 AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=232717&page=33#644)
Turn 33: 1750 AD - 1770 AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=232717&page=33#655)
Turn 34: 1770 AD - 1790 AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=232717&page=34#661)
Turn 35: 1790 AD - 1810 AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=232717&page=34#676)
Turn 36: 1810 AD - 1820 AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=232717&page=35#686)
Turn 37: 1820 AD - 1840 AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=232717&page=35#698)
Turn 38: 1840 AD - 1860 AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=232717&page=36#707)
Turn 39: 1860 AD - 1880 AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=232717&page=36#717)
Turn 40: 1880 AD - 1899 AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=232717&page=37#740)
Turn 41: 1899 AD - 1910 AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=232717&page=38#756)
Turn 42: 1910 AD - 1930 AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=232717&page=39#763)
Turn 43: 1930 AD - 1950 AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=232717&page=39#765)
Turn 44: 1950 AD - 1970 AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=232717&page=39#778)
Turn 45: 1970 AD - 1982 AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=232717&page=40#781)
Turn 46: 1982 AD - 1990 AD (Last) (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=232717&page=40#784)

Hi all, checking in.

erikthecelt has asked if we are ok with him signing up to be a dedicated Geezer lurker (he posted this request in the HOF forum). Seems fine to me, anyone have any problem with it?

No objection from me. I'm assuming he knows this means he can't look at other games? However he needs to post this request in the signup thread so that AlanH knows.


So, here is a thought... in SGOTM 01, we won laurels because we didn't follow the herd. In that session, almost all teams went for Dom. However, we went Diplo, and on that particular map, this turned out to be a good play. I'm wondering if we should try something similar. I'm guessing many teams will go Dom/Conquest, because warmongering is often the fastest way to win. However, given this is a Gyathaar special map, maybe it is set up to make that hard (e.g. islands). Diplo will be impossible since we start at war, but maybe we go for fast culture? Something to think about.

A modified reprise of SGOTM 01 in other words? Interesting thought, especially since we can make peace with the other civs.

Checking in.

Welcome to our new members !

No objection from me if erikthecelt likes to be dedicated lurker.

I have not yet ordered BTS. After the buggy release of the Vanilla version I always wait for some reports first. If I order it at amazon Germany I can get it within 24 hours, but I am not that keen, yet to get it.

I also tried a little more on G-Major 13, but I did not get another suitable map, so I gave up yesterday.

Culture sounds interesting. I cannot remember even trying a culture win, yet. I think I read that we would need at least 6 cities. Obviously Great Artists will be needed. I will have a look at that in the evening.

Anybody played the test map that was posted in the pre-discussion thread ?

erikthecelt has asked if we are ok with him signing up to be a dedicated Geezer lurker (he posted this request in the HOF forum). Seems fine to me, anyone have any problem with it?


No problems at all with erikthecelt. (We are becoming ever more the International Geezers, aren't we? USA, UK, NZ and now Canada.)

Swine. ;) My copy seems to have delayed by the weather problems.

Oh wow. Which bit of our flooded land are you located? We've got some rather wet areas near us, but I am, luckily, the geezer who lives on the hill.
Hope it arrives soon. I've had a bit of a play over the weekend. Some very interesting additions. (Espionage ;) )

Anybody played the test map that was posted in the pre-discussion thread ?

Yes. I've been playing about with the test game a bit. Now, where are my notes? I'll post again in a few minutes when I can retrieve them.

Right! Here goes on my first findings, having played through at least some of the trial game a few times.
I've tried to organise my random and scrambled notes into some kind of rational order.
Apologies for the huge post!

Right from the off

We know everyone.
You are at war with everyone, and they all (initially) refuse to talk.
We have no technologies.


Scores etc

You can't see the barbarians on the scoreboard or the Foreign Advisor screen.
You can't see ourselves on the scoreboard (!)
You can find ourselves in the Victory Conditions screen. We are there as 'Temujin/Barbarian', but always have 0 score.


Aye Carumba!

As previously noted, the test game crashed in flames as soon as we discovered Alphabet. I avoided this in subsequent attempts.


Animal Times

Animals started appearing from turn 6.
You can immediately see the bits of the map where the animals are walking, which aids exploration (in an interestingly random manner). Of course, they will not enter other civs borders, and only appear in parts of the world where there is some fog of war.
Animals do not, of course, attack our units.
We can share a square with an animal. We can walk with lions, but it's kind of frustrating, since they are stupid and won't go when we want to go.


Goody Huts

We cannot pop huts by walking into them.
However, huts can still be popped by expanding borders, or by settling a city beside one.
If you really want to, you can pillage a hut (perhaps to stop someone else getting it when you can't)


AI Relationships

As I said previously, no AI will talk to us at the start.
The less aggressive AIs will start talking after about 8 turns. Asoka was the first in the test game.
The AI attitude gets progressively worse over time.
Soon they are mostly at -11 or so.
Even from -11, Alexander suddenly appeared to offer us peace!
It is quite possible to make peace with the AI, and they get peace with the Barbarians, too, of course.


Barbarians as allies

Normally, barbarians avoid our borders, despite our 'teamed' status.
(However, in one game a bear appeared within our borders! It couldn't cope with this situation, and remained stationary until it vanished some time later)
We cannot enter diplomacy with the barbarians. They do not appear on the Foreign advisor screen.
The first barbarians (human, not animal) started appearing about turn 49.
The first barbarian cities appeared about turn 80.
The barbs attack AI indiscriminately, and lose most of the time. We don't see the battle - just the sudden disappearance of the units.
Barbarians do tech, though not at any great speed.
We get their techs, and they get ours.
Once they have cities, we can enter their City Management screens. From here, we can see what they are researching (although we can't change it)



OK. I might have got some of this wrong, or missed something important, but that was everything I noted.

Strategic thoughts

Having the barbarians as allies is interesting, but not massively useful. They allow us to see lots of random, scattered parts of the map, and the AI movements there, that wouldn't have been available in a normal game.
You can't stop the barbs & animals behaving in their usual stupid manner.
You can decide to research different parts of the tech tree from the barbs, thus sharing your research.
We can bring the barbs up to the point where they have (e.g) axes earlier than they would normally have them. This can provide the AI with an irritating diversion.
Depending on the map layout, there may be several AIs who don't have barbarians near them (due to lack of FOW, I guess). This means we won't see anything of them, and can't use barb attacks against them.
It's worth considering ignoring the barbarians as useful military allies. They are sooo bad.

Oh wow. Which bit of our flooded land are you located? We've got some rather wet areas near us, but I am, luckily, the geezer who lives on the hill.

Thankfully I'm not directly affected by the floods. However a number of train lines and roads were closed by the weather which delayed the post. However BTS was delivered whilst I was at work today. :band: :banana:

Bang goes a large part of the evening. :lol:

Hmmm. Third post. Not good.
(Turns round 3 times. Spits. Throws salt over shoulder)

Anyway. I had some time on my hands today, and in addition to the posting extravaganza, I've been able to try the game out again with the new HOF mod 1.74.SGOTM5.
That seems to work nicely, and removes many of the strangest things I've noted above.
You now appear on the scores, as do the Barbarians.
And we do both get scores, which are totalled together to give our position in the score list.
The crash at Alphabet has been fixed.
There is something odd about the research that is listed against the barbarians in the scores, and the techs that they suddenly give you. These don't match up. However, I wouldn't blame the mod for this. More likely it's something strange about the way barbarians research stuff.

However BTS was delivered whilst I was at work today. :band: :banana:


Oh. Our posts crossed. On this occasion that's good, as you saved me from committing the "3rd post in a row" crime.

Enjoy your evening with BTS. (I haven't seen much of mine today. My copy was stolen by my youngest, who's intent on completing a game of it before I do :()

Anybody played the test map that was posted in the pre-discussion thread ?

I haven't played that one but I've tried a few test maps of my own without too much success. Main points were that my starting position was always down in the south near the tundra, early teching is quite slow (no starting techs makes a big difference) and happiness resources were at a premium.

On the latest I managed to rush and kill Alexander before he got his phalanxes but it took quite a while especially whilst fighting off Ghandhi's raiding parties.

Hopefully Gyathaar will make our starting position half decent although I don't see much production about on the starting screen. :( The-Hawk's idea of culture sounds interesting although we need some decent production and teching to get the wonders before the AI does. Ghandhi/Asoka, Mansa and Cyrus do tend to be a bit fast on that front. Mind you both Ghandhi and Cyrus seemed to be active on the raiding front on my last game. Shades of SGOTM 04. :lol:

Diplo might still be possible. We need to decide if we make peace early or not. Getting a suitable religion early wouldn't hurt.

What patches and mods do I need for this game now?

What patches and mods do I need for this game now?

The first post has details of this as reproduced below:


Versions
This game will be played in Civilization IV version 1.74, using special HoF Mod 1.74.SGOTM5.

This post (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=5715190&postcount=5) from the maintenance thread has a link to the mod. You probably need to update your version of Directx before applying the patch otherwise it will fail to install. The main page has link to it (58MB IIRC).

If you have BTS then it will update DirectX and patch vanilla for you.

I, too, really like The-Hawk's idea of one of the more unpopular victory conditions (in this SGOTM).

Diplo is not entirely out of the question, as you can make peace early with about half of the AI. Experience with the test game has shown me that we can start making peace from about about turn 30 or so. However, I hadn't yet managed to get the AI attitude into the positive figures yet (not that I was trying to...). They continue to carry the -3 for "You declared war on us", offset against the +1 for "Years of peace". I guess if you set your mind to trading, warring on a common enemy etc, this idea might be a goer.

On the other hand, we can go cultural. Nothing about the game set-up seems to be directly against this. I personally have virtually no experience going for cultural victories, but I'm betting we do have some experience within the Geezers team.

Cultural is probably my favourite and most preferred victory condition, so I would support that as a goal, although I have no experience with this in the unique circumstances of this game.

How is the final ranking of results calculated then? Fastest? Highest scoring? Cultural is neither fast nor high scoring, but if there is a prize for fastest cultural then we'd be in with a shot.

If going for cultural, then big picture considerations are:
- city placement is crucial as you definitely need a kick-ass Great Artist farm, as well as 3 well-planned cities to be the Legendary culture cities.
- Wonders need to be carefully planned for maximum benefit and minium pollution of Great Artist pool
- You still need production cities to pump out units to keep up military power
- You need to plan to somehow get 3 religions spread to our cities, so a decision would be required on whether which ones we might want to found
- A decision would also be required on when we wanted to shut down science to focus on culture - this might be based on how precarious our military situation was at the time.
- A big decision is whether or not we plan to take any AI cities by force or not. This might be based on proximity of capitals and holy cities once we get started. An AI capital can be a great Legendary city, but only if you get it early enough. A big issue might be what exactly a "fractal archipelago" is.

Apologies for the huge post!

Not at all, thanks for doing all this scouting. Really good stuff.

The first barbarian cities appeared about turn 80.

I am a little concerned about this. If a barb city pops up near our capital, they may deny us valuable land since we can't attack them. This could be critical in a culture or space attempt.

Did you notice if they only appear in fog? Or, since they are our allies, can they pop up on visible tiles? We might need to fog bust them ourselves to protect our expansion area.

Barbarians do tech, though not at any great speed.
We get their techs, and they get ours.
Once they have cities, we can enter their City Management screens. From here, we can see what they are researching (although we can't change it)
You can decide to research different parts of the tech tree from the barbs, thus sharing your research.

Something tells me there is a differentiator here. If we can figure out their tendancy to tech (what techs they prefer), we might be able to increase our tech rate by going another path. I suspect they prolly suck at teching though, so maybe we need to plow ahead without them.

We can bring the barbs up to the point where they have (e.g) axes earlier than they would normally have them. This can provide the AI with an irritating diversion.

OK, I like this idea... ;) :groucho:

Sorry for being thick but what do I need to do? I read the maintenance thread and did not understand a word of it. Do I just need to install the "special mod"? What will that do to all my other games?

The special mod should do nothing to your current games as it will be loaded if you load our team file. Of course you can also load it manually like the HOF mods, but if you don't do that it just sits there and waits for your SGOTM turns.:)

I hope our other two new members will check in soon. I have pmed them that the game starts tomorrow, so I hope they show up soon.

BTW do we have a volunteer to start us off ? However I think we should take our time before actually start playing.

BTW do we have a volunteer to start us off ? However I think we should take our time before actually start playing.


I'm a bit hesitant about being first up, being one of the new boys. I'd recommend a safe pair of hands getting us going.

As you said, we do need a spot of considering and discussing before we start, even if that means a relaxed kick-off a couple of days after the saves are released. We need to have our overall game plan sketched out, but we also need to examine that start position closely (I haven't yet) and get our early days plan in place. You reckon?

If going for cultural, then big picture considerations are:
- city placement is crucial as you definitely need a kick-ass Great Artist farm, as well as 3 well-planned cities to be the Legendary culture cities.
- Wonders need to be carefully planned for maximum benefit and minium pollution of Great Artist pool
- You still need production cities to pump out units to keep up military power
- You need to plan to somehow get 3 religions spread to our cities, so a decision would be required on whether which ones we might want to found
- A decision would also be required on when we wanted to shut down science to focus on culture - this might be based on how precarious our military situation was at the time.
- A big decision is whether or not we plan to take any AI cities by force or not. This might be based on proximity of capitals and holy cities once we get started. An AI capital can be a great Legendary city, but only if you get it early enough. A big issue might be what exactly a "fractal archipelago" is.

I had another play-through of the trial game last night, this time concentrating on peace, and seeing whether I could head towards either a diplomatic or cultural victory. Sadly, I wasn't single-minded about either of these objectives, so when I saved at about 1500AD I wasn't in any danger of getting either of these victories. However, it did tell me a few things:


We are starting off with no techs at all, and that means the race for an early religion is all but lost from the start.
We still might found one of the later religions, having pulled back the deficit by then.
It was hard to get any other religions to spread to our lands. Finally, I got one because somebody planted a small city in a corner of my land, which I took. It was Islamic, and that spread.
Making peace with most of the AI early (some just won't) meant that I spent most of the game un-bothered by enemy attacks, which allowed me to get on with building.

I am a little concerned about this. If a barb city pops up near our capital, they may deny us valuable land since we can't attack them. This could be critical in a culture or space attempt.

Did you notice if they only appear in fog? Or, since they are our allies, can they pop up on visible tiles? We might need to fog bust them ourselves to protect our expansion area.


I'm fairly sure these cities only popped up in light fog. I've played this game several times now, and we're on a very large island (almost a continent!) with plenty of hiding places. I'm sure the real map will be nothing like it. Mainly the one barb city on our island always appeared in the same place. However, in one game I fog-busted that area and it appeared somewhere else. In another I settled there before they did, and they settled not far from our capital (but in fog iirc).
You're quite right about it denying us valuable land. The prime location the barbs kept settling was right by some gold.


Something tells me there is a differentiator here. If we can figure out their tendancy to tech (what techs they prefer), we might be able to increase our tech rate by going another path. I suspect they prolly suck at teching though, so maybe we need to plow ahead without them.

I played again last night. That's the second time on the new HOF mod. It tells you what the barbs are researching - but that's very misleading. They do research very slowly, but on the other hand they seem to learn some other techs in the meantime - which of course they pass on to us. (I'm going to play the early years again and keep a careful note of which techs they learn. I have a bit of time on my hands today:D)

I mentioned this barb tech-ing behaviour in the Maintenance thread, while discussing the HOF mod, and Gyathaar replied "Barbarians get free beakers per turn in techs that is known by other teams.. and can this way learn techs even without having techs selected as the active tech to research."
Interesting.
Yes! In fact I noticed several times in the Science Advisor that techs were apparently already partially researched!

I'll report back later if I can deduce the barbie's preferred techs.

OK. An update on the barb's teching preferences, based on the autolog from last night.

My tech path (for whatever reasons) was this:
Mysticism - Mining - Polytheism - Agriculture - Animal H - Wheel - Pottery - Writing - Alphabet - Literature - Math - CoL - Compass - Monarchy - Metals - Calendar - Currency - Machinery - Optics

In the meantime, the barbs gave me these techs (on these turns)
Archery (34)
Fishing (53)
Hunting (74)
Masonry (95)
Bronze Working (116)
Priesthood (138)
Sailing (149)
Meditation (175)
Iron Working (199)
Monotheism (226)
Horse Riding (250)
Construction (250)
Theology (317)

It was handy that I avoided many of the tech that the barbs could be expected to pursue (Archery, Bronze, Sailing).

Interesting that they also researched various religious techs, alongside the military and household techs.

Interesting, too, the speed that some of the techs came up. Slow at first, but then roughly 20 tuns, although some of them only 11 turns apart. Then 2 techs the same turn!

Hi, checking in.

Sorry I am a bit late, I didn't know I was assigned. The last time I checked the main thread my status was unassigned and I thought the game was running already.

But now I'm there and ready for action :-)


Thank you, AgedOne, for the testing you have done, this is very valuable data.

We have no technologies.

In my experience not having mysticism doesn't mean founding Hinduism isn't possible. But its a kind of early comitment and a gamble. But without a cultural victory might not be possible.

It is quite possible to make peace with the AI, and they get peace with the Barbarians, too, of course.


Its probably a good idea to make peace with at least some of the peaceful ^^ AIs. War Weariness might be a big problem later on, and some tech-trading is essential in most games, even in isolated starts.

We can bring the barbs up to the point where they have (e.g) axes earlier than they would normally have them. This can provide the AI with an irritating diversion.


This is a interesting idea. And it sound funny. The Bars are still "Raging", after all, and the AIs sometimes have problems with raging barbs even when they have no tech support. Maybe this allows to slow the AIs somewaht down? Our start is already delayed by not having techs. But if it is not possible to win by an early domination (and I doubt that) some well developed AIs usually help increase the tech pace, which is neccessary for a early win.

Thanks, AgedOne for all the testing.

Usually the first player has the task to move the scout a bit to see whether settling in place or moving the settler might be worthwhile. IIRC in none of the SGOTMs we settled in place, so this could be done quite early. After that of course teching and our overall "first" strategy should be agreed on.

The starting position does not look that good to me. Dyes will come workable after Calender and just pigs visible so far, so definitely we have to move the scout first to see whether we can get a better place or whether there are some invisible treasures at that spot.:mischief:

I would move the settler one North on the pigs to scout there and the scout 1W, 1SW to see what is there. South of the scout it looks like a lot of jungle, so I do not think it makes much sense to move the scout South directly.

This is my first succession game, maybe someone more experienced is better suited for the first turn.

I agree, going south doesn't look good.

But I would not move the scout to the pigs, rather one square left to the pigs. There is no information the scout at the pigs would give over the square left (you can't see behind the trees). And for further exploring the scout is positioned worse at the pigs.

So I would move the scout NW two times. If there are food resources + hills in the 3 squares left of the scout, I would probably settle in place.
If not, I would use the settler to look 1 tile NW and the scout to go to SW. If the settler finds seafood (likely) at the second turn, he may return and found a city in the second turn.

In my experience not having mysticism doesn't mean founding Hinduism isn't possible. But its a kind of early comitment and a gamble. But without a cultural victory might not be possible.



Very true (to all 3 statements)!
I just tried the start of the trial game a few times and got varying results.
I was going Mysticism - Polytheism each time, and trying to maximise commerce & research each time.
The start is different from the real game we'll be playing, but the AI list is the same.

I did manage to found Hinduism once. The gamble paid off on that occasion. Turn 34.
On other occasions, Isabella founded it. The earliest was on turn 17! Another time it was turn 28. The difference on the turn that succeeded was that Issy went for Buddhism instead, and no-one else stepped in (fast enough) on the Hinduism route.

We'll really have to sort this out amongst ourselves if we are going for cultural victory. Do we go for a religion? Is it safer going for a later one - Judaism, Confucianism, or even Islam or Christianity?

Whichever way we choose is going to directly affect our early research path. We'll have to postpone vital techs (like Agri, Mining, Animals, Fishing) at the expense of these religious ones. If it doesn't work out, we'll have set ourselves back quite a way.

With Izzi in the game (I didn't notice that when I wrote my first post) founding an early religion might be more difficult than usual.

Additionally, this sets back urgently needed worker/workboat techs for another 34 turns. Ok, since we probably build warriors first the city will grow and this will reduce the time for researching, but not too much and at the cost of production/growth, since there are no floodplains.

But if we go for Mysticism first, there is the option for an early Stonehenge, but I think, this needs a better start position. I remember trying even Stonehenge as the very first build in a monarch game because I had no useful worker techs. The delay in landgrabbing wasn't that big and the early settled prophet was huge.

I need to do some test games :-)

Easy to found is Confuzianism (via Oracle) with comes at an useful tech path and is a useful tech by itself, Taoism en route to Liberalism. By this time one of the older religions has usually spread to my cities.
This would make the absolutly required 3, but for a safe cultural victory 4 religions is better. For me and my playing style at least, when I go for cultural, I usually don't bother with a GA farm and instead use Cottage Spamming and the cultural slider. This way you don't need a single GA :-)

I hardly bother with Christianity or Islam, but sometimes it is possible to found Judaism. But probably not with Izzi in the game and no techs at all.

BTW, we should kill her first.

With Izzi in the game (I didn't notice that when I wrote my first post) founding an early religion might be more difficult than usual.

Additionally, this sets back urgently needed worker/workboat techs for another 34 turns. Ok, since we probably build warriors first the city will grow and this will reduce the time for researching, but not too much and at the cost of production/growth, since there are no floodplains.

But if we go for Mysticism first, there is the option for an early Stonehenge, but I think, this needs a better start position. I remember trying even Stonehenge as the very first build in a monarch game because I had no useful worker techs. The delay in landgrabbing wasn't that big and the early settled prophet was huge.

I need to do some test games :-)

Easy to found is Confuzianism (via Oracle) with comes at an useful tech path and is a useful tech by itself, Taoism en route to Liberalism. By this time one of the older religions has usually spread to my cities.
This would make the absolutly required 3, but for a safe cultural victory 4 religions is better. For me and my playing style at least, when I go for cultural, I usually don't bother with a GA farm and instead use Cottage Spamming and the cultural slider. This way you don't need a single GA :-)

I hardly bother with Christianity or Islam, but sometimes it is possible to found Judaism. But probably not with Izzi in the game and no techs at all.


I'm going to have to do some research on going cultural, if we really are going to go for this. (And of course we must all discuss this and agree on it as a team first) I just have no experience at it at all, and I'm sure I would fail to appreciate many of the more subtle points of the strategy.

Note: I found it easily possible to build Stonehenge in my tests.


BTW, we should kill her first.
Agreed! Izzy is going down! (But then that would always be true ;). I can't stand her.)

Note: I found it easily possible to build Stonehenge in my tests.


Yes, I know its easy to build, but the question is more like: How high is the price? What could we have done with those hammers instead?
Actually, since we are something 30 turns back techwise, the usually best option ("Worker first") is now useless.


Warrior first - Adds almost nothing to future production, exception is a worker steal. But can be used to prevent barb cities stealing our land (fogbusting)

Settler first - The second city will come online much earlier in the game, this will be a gain longterm, but a weaker capital and a slower tech rate short term. Strongly depends on the map.

Stonehenge first - Usually about 40-50 Turns. In terms of production this is 12 warriors, 4 monuments or 1,8 settlers. Since we are a backwards civ and can't build much useful, this is an option too. Requires a tech, so this would probably a warrior+stonehenge build.

I we find fish, researching fishing first and then build a workboat as soon as possible as fast as possible is usually the best start, but this way we wouldn't get any early religions. Which isn't that bad anyway :-)



Agreed! Izzy is going down! (But then that would always be true ;). I can't stand her.)

I really like her music in the late game, though :-)

Nice to see the thread is quite active. :)

BTW do we have a volunteer to start us off ? However I think we should take our time before actually start playing.

I don't mind taking the blame for poor starting moves. :lol: If it's anything like the last SGOTM I suspect I'll be stopping and posting frequently for the first few moves anyway.


I would move the settler one North on the pigs to scout there and the scout 1W, 1SW to see what is there. South of the scout it looks like a lot of jungle, so I do not think it makes much sense to move the scout South directly.


I agree, going south doesn't look good.

But I would not move the scout to the pigs, rather one square left to the pigs. There is no information the scout at the pigs would give over the square left (you can't see behind the trees). And for further exploring the scout is positioned worse at the pigs.

So I would move the scout NW two times. If there are food resources + hills in the 3 squares left of the scout, I would probably settle in place.
If not, I would use the settler to look 1 tile NW and the scout to go to SW. If the settler finds seafood (likely) at the second turn, he may return and found a city in the second turn.

The bit in bold is a bit confusing. :confused: :) (settler?) If we move the settler 1 NW then we can see if we have any sea resources. I would be inclined to move the scout 1 W initially. Whoever's going first can then save and post a pic for the rest of us to have a look at and then decide where we want the scout on the second move. The settler won't be able to move till the next turn under my proposal but I think that's the case for all the other proposals anyway.

Thanks AgedOne for all your testing. :goodjob:

Of all the proposals for first build I don't think I saw barracks? Given that we don't have to worry about barbs the only reason for a warrior as first build is if we have another civ on our island. I'm pretty certain that Gyathaar won't have done that since we're at war ( crosses fingers) so we could build a barracks until we grow to 2.

There's certainly something to be said for Stonehenge, especially the GP points but I agree that it ties up our first city for a long while particularly in the absence of any stone.

In terms of which victory condition to aim for I think it's probably a little bit early to decide until we know what our land is like. I think it's almost certain that we'll need to take down at least one civ in the early stages.

EDIT: That island to the NE is interesting. I think Fishing for an early workboat to go exploring would a good choice for one of our early techs.

Plus Stonehenge is not always that useful if going for a fast cultural victory.

Start
I think a picture is emerging of how we should play turn 1. Settler goes NW. Scout goes W (S is another option, but I'm sure the view from the hill would be swathes of jungle).
Then play stops, a screenshot is posted and we can all have a look.

From Testing:
Had a bit of a laugh at the downside of having the barbarians as team-mates.
I decided to go for the Gt Prophet - fuelled slingshot to CS. You may remember the drill: build Stonehenge, then Oracle. Research Myst, Priest, Medi, Poly, Pott, Writing but NOT (I repeat, NOT) Masonry. Choose CoL or MetalCasting as your freebie from Oracle. When the Gt Prophet pops up, use them to lightbulb CS.

Well, it was all going well. Henge complete. Oracle nearly done. Then our barbarian pals gave me one of their techs. You guessed it. Masonry! Thanks guys! The upshot of this is that the Gt Prophet will allow you to lightbulb Monotheism instead of CS, which is a little disappointing.

The other funny was this:
Completed Oracle, chose CoL as free tech. Was the first to reach it, so founded Confucianism. Which was the holy city? Etruscan! Where? Etruscan. The barbarian city!! Somehow, it may allocate the holy city to any city within your team. I'm sure the barbarians loved it. They soon had a mighty city, but the religion still wouldn't spread to me.

A cautionary tale, I think :(

Well, it was all going well. Henge complete. Oracle nearly done. Then our barbarian pals gave me one of their techs. You guessed it. Masonry! Thanks guys! The upshot of this is that the Gt Prophet will allow you to lightbulb Monotheism instead of CS, which is a little disappointing.

The other funny was this:
Completed Oracle, chose CoL as free tech. Was the first to reach it, so founded Confucianism. Which was the holy city? Etruscan! Where? Etruscan. The barbarian city!! Somehow, it may allocate the holy city to any city within your team. I'm sure the barbarians loved it. They soon had a mighty city, but the religion still wouldn't spread to me.

A cautionary tale, I think :(
:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

On a more serious note I'm quite glad you made those tests before we started the game. Looks like we had better avoid slingshots and founding (later) religions.

The other funny was this:
Completed Oracle, chose CoL as free tech. Was the first to reach it, so founded Confucianism. Which was the holy city? Etruscan! Where? Etruscan. The barbarian city!! Somehow, it may allocate the holy city to any city within your team. I'm sure the barbarians loved it. They soon had a mighty city, but the religion still wouldn't spread to me.

:rotfl:

That is really great ! :rolleyes: Haven't even thought of this. Does it make any sense to go for a religion at all if it is that way ?

That is really great ! :rolleyes: Haven't even thought of this. Does it make any sense to go for a religion at all if it is that way ?

An early religion would be more feasible. I don't think the barbs settle cities particularly early. However if we were thinking of a cultural victory then it might make it rather more difficult.

There's always the option of backdoor diplo. :p

An early religion would be more feasible. I don't think the barbs settle cities particularly early. However if we were thinking of a cultural victory then it might make it rather more difficult.

The first barb cities seem to be about turn 80. Admittedly, this was the first time I'd seen the 'Barbarian Holy City' phenomenon, in several attempts at founding religions, but now I come to think of it, it was the first time I'd founded one after turn 80.

There's always the option of backdoor diplo. :p
Ah yes. How does that go?
Isabella founds Hinduism.
Mongols eat Isabella.
Mongols inherit Hinduism.
:p

I would not move the scout to the pigs

The bit in bold is a bit confusing. :confused: :) (settler?)


I read markh wrong, I read "I would move the scout to the pigs"
Sorry for the noise :-)

Ah yes. How does that go?
Isabella founds Hinduism.
Mongols eat Isabella.
Mongols inherit Hinduism.
:p

More along the lines of become the civ with the biggest pop and vote yourself as diplo winner. :lol:

Of all the proposals for first build I don't think I saw barracks? Given that we don't have to worry about barbs the only reason for a warrior as first build is if we have another civ on our island. I'm pretty certain that Gyathaar won't have done that since we're at war ( crosses fingers) so we could build a barracks until we grow to 2.



Why do you want to build a barracks, when you see no need for it? I didn't mention it for exactly that reason.

Regarding Stonhenge: Don't underestimate it. I am not talking about the culture (this is neglectable for a Cultural Victory), more like a cheap creative trait. But the Great Prophet after 75 turns is huge, it usually allows your tech rate to go up some 20-40% immediatly if settled, and add two hammers on that. If I can lightbulb CS with it, I would do it, but I rather like to settle them for the long term goals.

I just did a test game, SH needs 36 Turns at epic speed if we stay at size 2, 38 if we grow to 3 and some 40+ growing to 4, but this depends on the tiles workable.
This isn't really that long, considering you need about 40 turns for AH and of course 14 to Mysticism. If you queue up a worker immediatly after SH, he will probably come online when you hit AH.
The cost for SH would rather be 14 worker turns, this the time needed fuer Myst, not the 36-40 turns needed to build it, because there is nothing useful to build anyways.
The payoff is after 75 turns, when you get at least permanent +2 H and +5 cash.

A fast cultural victory usually requires some of the following ingredients:
- one or more of Spiritual, Financial, or Philosophical
- good commerce (e.g. a Gold) in capital for racing to religions
- easy access to marble for Parthenon, National Epic, and Sistine Chapel
- a great Great Artist site that can be established and up and running in time for the arrival of Drama

Much as I like the cultural route, I'm not convinced that cultural would be optimal given our starting conditions. This is a pretty important decision because I don't think it's something you want to go into half-heartedly.

Compare this to the military route, where you can overcome geographical handicaps through superior military tactics. In cultural, there are less tactical decisions to be made, so your inherent resources and early decisions have a bigger impact.

Why do you want to build a barracks, when you see no need for it? I didn't mention it for exactly that reason.

I mentioned barracks because we are going to need to attack at least one civ to get some decent land. I will be surprised if Gyathaar gives us room for more than three or four cities. In the early game the only other things to build are warriors, workers and settlers. Since the last two don't allow the city to grow I feel barracks would be a better bet, at least until the city grows to 2 pop.


Regarding Stonhenge: Don't underestimate it. I am not talking about the culture (this is neglectable for a Cultural Victory), more like a cheap creative trait. But the Great Prophet after 75 turns is huge, it usually allows your tech rate to go up some 20-40% immediatly if settled, and add two hammers on that. If I can lightbulb CS with it, I would do it, but I rather like to settle them for the long term goals.


I'm certainly not against it. Largely for the reasons you give. I merely said that it needs to be balanced against our other needs. Obviously we will need to see how many hammers we have for production as well.

We should have either copper or iron on our island so at least we'll have some production.

More along the lines of become the civ with the biggest pop and vote yourself as diplo winner. :lol:

Ah, yes. I should pay more attention. You said backdoor diplo and I was thinking of backdoor culture.

Much as I like the cultural route, I'm not convinced that cultural would be optimal given our starting conditions. This is a pretty important decision because I don't think it's something you want to go into half-heartedly.

As one of those much less experienced in cultural victory games, I am very willing to be led by the judgement of those who are far more experienced. Pleasant though the thought is of achieving a more unconventional victory in this SGOTM, I think we should abandon the idea if the right conditions are not present.

Diplomatic is probably a non-starter (except for the backdoor style mentioned by Sam_Yeager above) since I've failed ignominiously to get any of the AI's attitudes to anything better than 0 / Cautious even after 300 turns of smiling, trading and grovelling.


I mentioned barracks because we are going to need to attack at least one civ to get some decent land.

There's a lot to be said for making a strong military start to the game, regardless of the finish we're aiming for. Gain space, cities, population at the expense of some of our rivals. Then, when sitting comfortably, strike out for our chosen victory condition from a position of power. I'm for it! :D

Warrior first - Adds almost nothing to future production, exception is a worker steal.

No worker steals in this game... AI's start at war, they aren't gonna leave a worker floating around when our warrior shows up.

Some other random comments:

RE: Starting move.

I agree with markh's scout moving W, SW, unless the first move shows more jungle to the south. If so, I would move scout another W or even NW. After scout moves, I think we need to assess before sending the settler off to scout. We may find that one tile SW is the best spot to settle. If so, a move to the pigs or to the NW will require two turns to come back and settle. (Having said that, I am a big proponent of scouting with the settler... a better start location is worth 1-3 wasted turns before settling.)

RE: Starting Build

I almost always build a worker first. However, to someone else's point, given the no-tech start, if there is nothing for the worker to do, no reason to build one first. I would start with a warrior for sure... exploration will be critical to deciding our strategy. Later fogbusting to keep our barbie buds from settling is also important.

RE: To culture or not to culture.

Yep, we clearly need to know the lay of the land before we decide. For culture, we need room to settle three good cities (preferrably four so we can have a GP farm separate from the legendary cities). If we are on a scrawny island that won't support three useful cities, then we'll need to go military. If we are on a major landmass (large enough for Dom), we will have to go military to compete with the other teams. However, a small-medium landmass offers more choices, especially if there are one or two neighbors to supply some cities and maybe a captured religion.

Re: religions and culture.

When I play for culture, I rarely try for early religions. To me, they distract from beelining more important techs. I usually bank on discovering Confusianism and Taoism, and expect 1-3 others to spread to me. (I like to beeline to Philo for Tao. I have a theory - completely unproven - that if you get Philo first, the AI's lose interest, hence delaying their discovery of Liberalism.)

However, AgedOne's discovery about later religions potentially popping over the the barbies is huge. What a revolting outcome that would be. Also, if we are on an island, the chances for religious spread (or capture) diminishes.

RE: How to culture

Cultureboy... I mean... Harbourboy has nailed the major points. Its all about beeline teching and spamming cottages.

RE: Early strategy

I think we want to really focus on science early (did I mention spamming cottages?). This set us up for space or culture. It also sets us up for warmongering if we need to invade another island (early Astronomy). Off the top of my head, the only reason to do something besides early science is if we think we are on a large landmass and want to go quick domination. In this case, heck with science, spam axemen.

RE: By the way

Who the heck is Temujin? Does he have traits?

Later fogbusting to keep our barbie buds from settling is also important.

I don't mean to look as though I'm ignoring all of the rest of your post. I just had to drop a fly (fly? medium-sized stag beetle) in the ointment with something I just discovered.

Barbarians just built a city right next to my sentried scout! This blows away all of my previous notes about fog-busting.

I'm going to check again tomorrow (It's late here, and I may have overlooked something in my dozy state. No work tomorrow, mind!) but it seems it may have been coincidence before that they avoided where I had units standing!

I'll also re-read your post tomorrow. Looks like a sound summarizing of all our varied researches.

Barbarians just built a city right next to my sentried scout! This blows away all of my previous notes about fog-busting.

This is huge... you've earned a year's pay by learning this.

This says we need to spam settlers asap else we risk getting boxed in. Would suck if we need to wait for an enemy AI to capture a barb city so we can capture it back.

My 1,000th post. Thought I'd make it in this thread to commemorate (commiserate) just how much time I have wasted here. If I had spent this time on something productive, just think what I could have achieved.

So who is going to play first? I assume that we can at least do the first 20 moves when the file comes out without making too many decisions about the future.

Hi ol'team. Good luck turning into a barb nation. And don't forget to build a few warriors in the bigining just in case someone's wondering warrior show up by the border while the worker is being built.:rockon: :old:

Sam posted that he would do the first moves. I would not mind either. First we just have to move the settler and scout and post screenshots to decide where to settle, what tech to research and what to build first. All this depends what we find around there. The starting position as it is is not convincing me to settle on spot. I can do the scouting and postingm of the screenshots this evening (in about 10 hours). If someone else wants to do it earlier, post a "got it".

Moving the SETTLER on the pigs is ok ? Scout 1W, 1SW, too ? This seems the best for turn 0 to me. The settler can go W then if the coast shows no signs of seafood.

Congrats HB on the 1.000th post. You worked hard to get it.

I'll do the initial moves this evening, ~ 8 hours or so, after I've sorted out the mod. It was giving me problems this morning but I didn't have time to sort it out then.

Scout W and Settler NW is ok for me. After that Scout W or NW or SW :-)

With no late religions, probably no early religions and less religions spread chances for a cultural victory are diminishing.

I did another test game and noticed that teching is somewhat accelerated, as soon as our barb friends (in human form) spawn: We get an additional 3+ beakers as long as we are researching the same field as our brothers do, so there is no need to spread research to something different, nothing is lost.

Another point: Tech trading was difficult to say at least. The -3 permanent modifier we receive is a big malus.

The develoment of the AIs largely depends on the amount of water: The more water around an AI, the higher the probablity it is being unmolested by our raging friends. Going to peace to early might not be good: The AIs offering peace are generally those who have some problems with barbs (and thus lost units and being somewhat smaller), while those who are getting big fast (those I would like to have peace with) will refuse peace offers because they have lost no units.

This is huge... you've earned a year's pay by learning this.

This says we need to spam settlers asap else we risk getting boxed in. Would suck if we need to wait for an enemy AI to capture a barb city so we can capture it back.

Agreed! We just have to get there first, or it's a total gamble on whether our barb brothers will steal the good spots from us. (Thinks. How shall I spend that sabbatical year? More time for CIV. That's a plus!)



@Sam_Yeager
@MarkH
OK. I'll be beside my PC sometime around 7.5 hours time to see the first turn exploration report :)




I did another test game and noticed that teching is somewhat accelerated, as soon as our barb friends (in human form) spawn: We get an additional 3+ beakers as long as we are researching the same field as our brothers do, so there is no need to spread research to something different, nothing is lost.

Yes! I didn't see this clearly enough to put it into words, but. Yes. There is a kind of shared research going on. Sometimes, when you are both researching the same tech, it says 2 turns to go, and then at end of turn you discover the tech. Like we're pooling our beakers if we are on the same research.

I also agree that tech trading is a pig in this game! The best I managed to get in any of my tests was when I went back to war with someone, stole a small city from them, and then they threw me a handful of tech to make peace.

Ok I've got that mod sorted out now. There seems to be differing ideas on initial moves. As I understand it I move the scout 1 W but what about the settler. Do I


move it 1 N onto the pigs?
move it 1 NW to left of the hill?
leave it where it is and post the pic of what the scout reveals?


I'll wait an hour or so. If no consensus then I'll just move the scout 1 W and post a pic.

Lurker checking in: Good luck and thanks for letting me tag along. My understanding of the Lurker is that they can't view other threads and do not play the save but can comment on the play. Mostly I think I'll be lurking and cheering you on with maybe a few questions about how things are done.

On the Barb tech thing, Gyth pointed out in the maint thread that Barbs get beakers for everyone tech that an AI or player has. The more civ's that have a tech, the more beakers the barbs get for that tech.

Lurker checking in: Good luck and thanks for letting me tag along. My understanding of the Lurker is that they can't view other threads and do not play the save but can comment on the play.

Welcome erik. :) Your understanding of lurker status matches mine. You are allowed to look at the saves as well.

Hi Sam.
On the opening moves, I'm right with The-Hawk when he said:


RE: Starting move.

I agree with markh's scout moving W, SW, unless the first move shows more jungle to the south. If so, I would move scout another W or even NW. After scout moves, I think we need to assess before sending the settler off to scout. We may find that one tile SW is the best spot to settle. If so, a move to the pigs or to the NW will require two turns to come back and settle. (Having said that, I am a big proponent of scouting with the settler... a better start location is worth 1-3 wasted turns before settling.)


So I'd be happy for you to make one or even both of the scout moves, and then post a pic. Especially if you go W-W with the scout, we should know more about the possibility of settling SW, and then we can make a wiser settler move.

I moved the scout 2 W in the end as there was jungle to the S. It may not be too clear on the pic but there is water lapping 2 W ahead of the scout. I suspect the same on the next tile N.


http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k182/mrprab/SGOTM05/Start-4000BCa.jpg


EDIT: I presume the next move is to move the settler N or NW?

Thanks for the shot, Sam_Yeager.
I'm guessing we do still need to see more by moving settler NW.
What we can see now is not by any means a great start, is it?
If it turns out that the best start is 1SW of settler, then we can still reach it the turn afterwards.

I'll wait a bit longer for comments. Partly because I'm checking my hard drive on my Civ PC at present.

Settler N doesn't have any benefits over settler N, so I vote for that. But setteling now in place is fine with me too, as there will be fish in the N, I am pretty sure :-)

Is there a roster? Who is up next?

About barb teching: Barbs seem to have two sources of teching. One is a constant 3 beakers per turn, the other seems to be a random percentage of each tech the other AIs have, depending on the number of AIs. So it is possible to discover two or even three techs (or tech, barb 3 beakers tech + barb tech from other AIs) in one turn.

Settler N doesn't have any benefits over settler N, so I vote for that. So that'll be settler N, then? :D

Actually, is there a possible benefit in NW rather than N? Probably not, but if the land extends to the W or NW would we see it from the NW square, but not the hill?

I guess, in practice, that N is fine. (And we'll see that fish, won't we ;))



Is there a roster? Who is up next?
As I understand it, Sam_Yeager will play the first 20 turns now. We'll get our rota up and running soon, but I'm pretty sure we haven't got one yet.

Settler N doesn't have any benefits over settler N, so I vote for that.


So settler NW?

EDIT: Crosspost with AgedOne.

If it turns out that the best start is 1SW of settler

Surely not, as that would give us un-lighthousable water tiles.

Surely not, as that would give us un-lighthousable water tiles.

Yes, you're right. There's more chance of W-W from the settler being a good start. (Coastal, by the tropical fruit, 2 away from the pigs, beside river and hills.)

I get the uncomfortable feeling that we're going to end up settling where we are now...

So settler NW?


You read my mind :-)

Actually, is there a possible benefit in NW rather than N?

Yes, you will see the square left from the woods, which is not possible from the hill. And if you decide for any reason to settle more in the W, you are closer :-)

You'll all be happy to see the predicted sea resources. :p


http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k182/mrprab/SGOTM05/Start-4000BCb.jpg


I think I'll wait until there is agreement from the rest of the team as to what we do next. This probably means I won't continue until tomorrow evening.

Unless the scout reveals something on the next turn it looks like we may be settling on the original spot. :eek: :mischief:

Ho Hum.

I suppose the scout needs to move W (or SW) to reveal the inevitable sea resource that will tempt us over to the W coast.

Or alternatively, it doesn't reveal anything and we nip back to that lush plains square that looks so tempting. :twitch:

Hi erik. Have fun. Any comments are always welcome.

Thanks for your wishes Htadus. Hope to see you in one of the next SGOTMs again.

I would like to see what is 1W of the scout next. If there is nothing good. I would settle 1SW of where the settler is standing now. We would have the bananas with 3 food and 1 gold directly at our city. In the original spot all immediately available tiles do not really convince me to settle there. In my opinion the bananas is the strongest tile in the beginning here.

Reroll the map :-)


Move the Scout SW, if he doesn't find anything useful, settle the initial spot.

Moved scout as requested by mark.


http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k182/mrprab/SGOTM05/Start-3970BC.jpg


If we go for 1 SW of where the settler is i.e. 1 N of the bananas then what should I be researching and what should I be building?

Right. Thoughts.

Location
1SW from current settler position looks good to me. As MarkH said, the bananas are strong early resource. We will also be coastal, by a river, and will soon have access to the pig/hills. There are 2 forest tiles.

It's not enough for me to turn cartwheels, but it's better than the drab original location.

Building

If we go worker first, there's every chance it will be available before we have any tech to make it useful. Also, city growth of zero.
We could go settler. Again zero city growth for a number of turns. We do get an expansion lead.
We could go for a warrior. City allowed to grow. The warrior is of no real use. The barbs are our friends, and cannot be used for sharpening his skills. There won't be any AI nearby. He'll remain unpromoted a long time.
A barracks is interesting. City growth allowed. Promotions for future units.

So, for me the choice is between Settler and Barracks.


Strategy
Then we're back to the strategic decision of where we're going in this game.


I think diplo may be a non-starter. AI attitude cannot be overcome early enough, if at all.
Culture has problems. Founding religions carries the worry of getting a Barb holy city. AI shun us, so their religions take a long time to spread to us.
Most teams will be heading for a dom / conquest, which makes it a little less appealing to us Geezers, but it might still be the most realistic option.
How about a combined attempt:- early violence followed by a switch to cultural? We get axes and Keshiks. Damage one or two of our nearest AI. Get extra living space at their expense. Then change our priorities to culture. Hopefully, having picked up a couple of religions from our victims. Back home, we've been cottage-spamming.


Research
If we're going early violence, it would be useful to go down the Mining - BronzeWorking - IronWorking path.
(This also gives us the humorous aside of giving our barb brothers swordsmen quite early)
To make use of the land around our capital, we will need to pick up Agriculture, Animal H pretty soon.
We'll also want to get Pottery early on, so we can start them cottages.



All-in-all, I'm very tempted to go Mining - BronzeWorking straight off while building a Barracks. Then go Agriculture and get a Settler or Worker out.

I could be crazy recommending this. :crazyeye: Somebody talk me down, please!

I would wait until tomorrow to continue. Let's see what the others say.

I would settle 1SW at the bananas, build a warrior first and set research towards animal husbandry to get the pigs online. As we are that resourceless I would guess we have either horses or metal in that area.

I usually like to grow cities first before building a settler. Especially here we seem to be surrounded by jungle, so finding a good second spot to settle remains to be scouted. A warrior will be good as MP. As an MP he will never need any promotions, so I do no see a big need for a barracks that early.:)

I usually like to grow cities first before building a settler. Especially here we seem to be surrounded by jungle, so finding a good second spot to settle remains to be scouted. A warrior will be good as MP. As an MP he will never need any promotions, so I do no see a big need for a barracks that early.:)

I think you're making quite a strong attempt to 'talk me down' from my crack-brained scheme :)

I must confess that, under normal circumstances I would always make solid choices for getting my empire up and running. In nearly all of the test games I tried, a warrior was my first build, and Animal H or Agri was the first tech, except for those games where I was trying to found a religion.

(On the other hand, I did try the Barracks + Mining-BW route in my very last trial last night. Not a disaster. Except for my nearest AI neighbours, who were dead just into AD. But that wasn't going to win any prizes either.)

I also think you're absolutely right about finding horses or metals nearby.

I would think that chariots/Keshiks are good for early wide ranging harasment of the neighbours. A beeline to horseriding if you get horses up close would be nice and Barbarian like. :D

You'll have spotty intel from all over the map from the barbs so you may be able to smash and grab workers from the settler spawn especially if you nip in and out the cultural boundries. That will also help with making fog for the raging barbs to spawn in. In this game I think you want to kill as many of the AI fog busters as you can as early as you can. Go for the scouts and the settler parties. Hit and run tactics.

Wow, lots happening already. Just a reminder, I am east coast USA. Most weeknights I won't be able to check the thread until 8:00 PM my time. If you come across any decision points where you want input, it might require an overnight hold by you folks in Europe.

Reroll the map :-)

Yep, only thing good about this start is all the teams have the same one ;) .

I have two problems with settling 1 SW...

1) It would not be a great commerce city, which pretty much rules out a cultural attempt. If we want to keep the culture option available, then we will want to maximize cottages in the capital. If I were playing culture, I would seriously consider 2 S or 1S, 1 SE.

2) It will be a production poor city. Very few hammers if we chop the forests and pasture the pigs. Given this, I would tend to favor 1S, 1SE to bring the jungle hill into play for a mine.

So, while it is very tempting to get the bananas into the initial box, I think it weakens the city in the long run.

Oops, I have to run. I'll come back later this evening and weigh in on the techs and builds.

Unless there are metal and horses around, what we can say here is that the start position does not instantly support any ambitious early game gambits.

I say we aim for some reasonably stronng military position in the early years, because we have no idea how close anyone else is, or how aggressive they are going to be.

I would settle 1SW at the bananas, build a warrior first and set research towards animal husbandry to get the pigs online. As we are that resourceless I would guess we have either horses or metal in that area.

As I mentioned in the previous post, I am not too excited about 1SW (low commerce, low hammers). I agree there might be metal or horses in the area, yet another reason to settle inland and cover more ground.

I do agree with mark's tech and build suggestion. Warrior allows our pop to grow. AH to get the pigs on line... and maybe show us some horses for Keshiks.

That will also help with making fog for the raging barbs to spawn in. In this game I think you want to kill as many of the AI fog busters as you can as early as you can.

Another clever idea, all the more reason to spin up some Keshiks.

Right it looks as though I should head for Agri & AH for tech and warrior -> Worker for initial builds if I understand the previous comments correctly.

Where to settle still does not have complete consensus. Mark's suggestion of 1 SW gives us a coastal city which helps on an archipelago map. However this spot is unpopular with The-Hawk who argues that it will be neither a good commerce city or production city. His suggestion for a production city is 1 S or 1 SE (our original spot!) to bring the jungle hill into play.

Personally I tend to prefer production over commerce for the capital as it normally has to build so much in the early game. I won't be playing until this evening ~ 12 hours. It would be nice if we can come to some decision on where to settle by then.

EDIT: How many turns should I play? 20? An initial roster would be good as well. :)

Well, I am not excited about any spot there. :) All three locations are not very attractive.

drhirsch and Hawk are for 1SE. I could go with that as the bananas will come into range after the first border expansion.

Sam, you can play 20 or even 30. There will not be much to do anyway and I think we are set for initial research and build order.

1st try of a roster :

Sam, our starter
drhirsch
Harbourboy
AgedOne
markh
The-Hawk
Pariah (skipped until he reports being available)

Is that ok for everybody ? Any wishes ?

Settling SW is simply to much ocean in the fat cross for my taste. And it denies the plains and one forset, two of the rare productions squares we have.
Settling SE delays the bananas for 7 turn, this is 7 food less or 7 commerce less if we decide to go for settler first.
And if there is a resource popping after AH, BW, IW it could be on the east coast.

Is that ok for everybody ? Any wishes ?

If I meet any civs I assume I don't make peace?

I think we're misreading what The-Hawk was recommending. He's saying 1S, 1 SE which = the Plains square. This brings the jungle hill to the SE into play later on.

If I meet any civs I assume I don't make peace?

You have; and they won't! :)

2 S or S+SE: This would be a non coastal city, one tile away from the sea. Not good on a archipelago map, IMHO.

If the AI asks for peace (which will happen after they lose units), i would not take it, we need to know more first.

If I meet any civs I assume I don't make peace?

No, take them out. :joke:

Despite my leanings towards a 'guns, not food' strategy last night (Barracks, Mining - Bronze) I'd just like to state that I am happy with the more sensible one being advocated by most now: Warrior, AH.

(I'd also remind everyone that we'll probably be given Archery by the barbs around turn 35, for what it's worth.)

That sounds good, but will we need to research hunting ourselves before or will we get this automatically, too. It would be weird if we would get archery without having the prerequisite (hunting). :crazyeye:

Maybe we should wait until Hawk comes online again and states whether he meant the original starting position when he said 1SE. I do not think we should hurry now. No team has started, yet, so we also should take our time.;)

That sounds good, but will we need to research hunting ourselves before or will we get this automatically, too. It would be weird if we would get archery without having the prerequisite (hunting). :crazyeye:

Maybe we should wait until Hawk comes online again and states whether he meant the original starting position when he said 1SE. I do not think we should hurry now. No team has started, yet, so we also should take our time.;)

I quite agree. Let's relax, chat about the options, but do nothing irreversible for a few hours. I think it's about 4am for Hawk right now, so we won't hear anything from him for 4-5 hours if he pops in at breakfast time, 16 hours if its the evening.

btw, in at least one of my test games I did get presented with Archery before I researched Hunting. Strange world :crazyeye:

I hate cities that have unlighthousable coastal tiles.

If I remember right, you will get hunting from the barbs too, and quite early. Anyway: You will sure have archery in the early game, without ever investing in hunting or archery.


A try for a early general plan:

Research Farming-AH. Build warrior, as soon as we are at pop 2, switch to settler. This unusual start allows to research the
necessary worker techs, so our worker isn't unemployed later.

Build worker. Research Mining-BW, mainly for whipping. We need to whip good and often, because we seriously lack production. This will turn our food into hammers, so: Farm the bananas and get the pigs online.
Second city should be founded around this time.

Wheel-Pottery: An early granary tends to be quite useful for whipping purposes. Enables cottages.

Build barracks and THEN CRUSH IZZI :-)
And since our second city is founded on stone, we will get stonhenge too :-)


Somebody wrote earlier, he likes to let the city grow before building a settler or worker. This may be true for a standard start, because this shortens the build time somewhat, and during growth the hammer might be invested in somethin useful.

But we simply don't have much good tiles to work on (because of the spot and the lacking worker techs) and we have nothing useful to build, so a 3-4 pop city early has no benefits.

Edith said, it might be useful to finish the warrior for scouting :-)

What stone? Have I gone blind or am I looking at the wrong map?

What stone? Have I gone blind or am I looking at the wrong map?

If you believe in it strongly enough . . . the mind makes it real! :lol:

Yes, you have to believe in the Great Prophet.

The Great Prophet will appear! He will provide us with stones!
No. Wait!
The Gt Prophet is a time-traveller who will provide the stone that will inevitably result in his own appearance, years later!

If you believe in the Gt Prophet strongly enough, you can almost feel where the stones are . . . "On a hill, surrounded by forests, 4 to the south and 6 to the west of the capital"

(If that turns out to be true, I'll have to resign from the team :))

What stone? Have I gone blind or am I looking at the wrong map?

Yeah, obviously they are playing a different map than we do.:lol:

Ok, you know where the stones are, but I would be interested where the Gt Prophet is seeing horsies and copper. :crazyeye:

I thought a little bit about the early settler and I remember that we should take the good spots asap before the barbs spoil our city cites. Good point. Our scout has some work to do.

The Gt Prophet says, cryptically, that we shall find horse where we look, for sometimes what we desire most is hidden in plain sight.
He also prophesies that we may have to fight, in order that we may fight more powerfully.

I thought a little bit about the early settler and I remember that we should take the good spots asap before the barbs spoil our city cites. Good point. Our scout has some work to do.


Yes. It seems the only way to keep the barbs off the spots they desire is to settle there first.

OK, back to the serious matter at hand.
I've calmed down a lot, and now consider:

Settling on the original start square.
Researching Animal Husbandry.
Start building a warrior. (Switch to a settler once capital grows to size 2)

to be the option I would vote for.

The capital will be coastal, but not have an excess of sea squares. It will have immediate use of the pigs, 3 forest squares and 2 river. After expansion we have the bananas, another 4 river squares, the silk and a bunch more coastal squares.

Animal H will let us use the pigs, and see any horses that are nearby.

The warrior build allows the city to grow (as would a barracks) and provides MP for later.

The more I think about it the more The-Hawk's suggestion of the plains tile sounds better. I can't say that it fills me with great joy but none of the alternatives are that great anyway. Settling away from the coast is not intuitive on this type of map. However it's going to be a while before we can make use of the coast anyway as we need to acquire Fishing at a minimum before we can build any naval units. We just need to make sure our second city is on the coast.

Do we wait until The-Hawk confirms that he meant the plains tile or do we go for it anyway?

In terms of builds are we still agreed on Warrior -> Worker first? Or do we want settler as the second build? If so then we might be better researching Mining before Agri as we won't have a worker to use the techs. Bear in mind that we need IW before we can chop jungle IIRC.

If we're intending heavy whipping then Pottery for granaries might be a good idea. Is it worth me moving the scout SE to see what's there or doesn't it make any difference?

The more I think about it the more The-Hawk's suggestion of the plains tile sounds better. I can't say that it fills me with great joy but none of the alternatives are that great anyway. Settling away from the coast is not intuitive on this type of map. However it's going to be a while before we can make use of the coast anyway as we need to acquire Fishing at a minimum before we can build any naval units. We just need to make sure our second city is on the coast.

Do we wait until The-Hawk confirms that he meant the plains tile or do we go for it anyway?

In terms of builds are we still agreed on Warrior -> Worker first? Or do we want settler as the second build? If so then we might be better researching Mining before Agri as we won't have a worker to use the techs. Bear in mind that we need IW before we can chop jungle IIRC.

If we're intending heavy whipping then Pottery for granaries might be a good idea. Is it worth me moving the scout SE to see what's there or doesn't it make any difference?

I'm certain The-Hawk was referring to the plains square. He mentioned bringing the jungle hills square within range, which would not be the case if he meant the original square.

I think this is a reasonable square, with the only drawback being that it isn't coastal. Some of our team appear to be dead set against settling away from the coast. (I won't try to state their arguments for them.)

The one thing I would say about that is that if we intend to kill an AI early on we obviously need a sea-port to move our troops abroad.

My research preference is now for AH as soon as possible, for pigs and horses. Previously, though, I was after us getting Mining first en route for BW, but that's probably neglecting city development too much.

The one thing I would say about that is that if we intend to kill an AI early on we obviously need a sea-port to move our troops abroad.

Whilst this is true the point is moot until we acquire Sailing and have enough productive capacity to build enough galleys and military. With our current land this will be a fair while even if we pop copper and iron in our BFC.


My research preference is now for AH as soon as possible, for pigs and horses. Previously, though, I was after us getting Mining first en route for BW, but that's probably neglecting city development too much.

My point was that it depends on what we want for our second build. If it's a settler then we lose nothing by researching Mining first. If we are still going for a worker for the second build then I agree that going for Agri first makes sense.

Whilst this is true the point is moot until we acquire Sailing and have enough productive capacity to build enough galleys and military. With our current land this will be a fair while even if we pop copper and iron in our BFC.
I'm actually fine about settling inland. The ones I think will find it more unacceptable are drhirsch, who has said this earlier, and Harbourboy, who hates unlighthousable coastal squares (see, Harbourboy, I do pay attention sometimes)

My point was that it depends on what we want for our second build. If it's a settler then we lose nothing by researching Mining first. If we are still going for a worker for the second build then I agree that going for Agri first makes sense.
Yep. I see your point.
I think we can afford to go for an early settler in this game. There should be no threats in the early turns. As long as our capital is productive enough to be able to build one, it's OK. And we grab our second city spot ahead of the barb friends.

If our second city is coastal, then that problem is cleared up also. :)

Yes, I think settling on the plain square would hurt our city mid- and longterm.
Besides, we won't get automagically trade routes as soon as sailing comes in.

I think generally it is better to research deep into the tree, not flat, because chances are, you will get the cheap techs for free.

So you can do either Mining-BW or Agri-AH first. Im am more comfortable with the latter, it guarantees our worker can hook up the pigs, as soon he gets out. Assuming a Warrior-Settler-Worker build order :-)

Unless you hear otherwise from me, it is usually safe to assume that I agree with whatever The-Hawk last proposed, due to the awe in which I hold his recent Hall of Fame exploits.

I believe that this starting position has been specifically designed so that there are no obviously good spots to settle. I guess another option is wait another turn and move the scout a bit further. If it’s anything like WOTM7, then the killer city spot is more than 3 tiles from the starting position. I know I am a big fan in most games of just settling in place, but one or two turns of inactivity at the start can easily be made up if it means a better location. That’s a big “if” though.

Sorry about the confusion. Yes, I meant the plains tile 1S and 1SE of the settler. All things considered, still my 1st choice, it gives us 12-13 commerce tiles (cottages or dyes) depending on whether we mine or cottage the jungle hill.

However, this is still not a great start, and I'm happy to go with the consensus. If folks would prefer a coastal tile versus inland, I would say my second choice is the original location (1 SE of settler). This still leaves 10 commerce tiles (cottages and dyes). North of bananas is only 7 commerce tiles.

We need to whip good and often, because we seriously lack production.... An early granary tends to be quite useful for whipping purposes. Enables cottages.


If we do settle the original spot, then we need to keep this in mind. BW needs to come quickly after AH so that we can whip.

And we grab our second city spot ahead of the barb friends.

and...

I thought a little bit about the early settler and I remember that we should take the good spots asap before the barbs spoil our city cites. Good point. Our scout has some work to do.

Yes, we need to keep reminding ourselves that early expansion is critical. If we are on a small island, a barb city in a good spot would be really bad.

THEN CRUSH IZZI.

Only after we crush Alex. I HATE Alex. PS. Sorry should have warned you all before. I am a reasonably rational player... until Alex shows up in a game. Then I revert into a mindless Alex-killing machine. You might need to slap me and remind me that the goal is winning, not obliterating Alex. ;)

due to the awe in which I hold his recent Hall of Fame exploits.

Thanks! It was a real thrill to beat Moonsinger in a tough Gauntlet, I hold her up as one of the real elite players.

Ok, I'll settle the original spot. :crazyeye: Tech order will be Agri, AH, Mining & BW. The reason for the long tech order is that the barbs may gift us some techs. Build order is Warrior -> Settler -> Worker unless I hear to the contrary.

On to more important matters: we are currently running second in overall post count. Surely we can at least win the award for most posts by a SGOTM5 team!

Anyway, city placement is one of the weakest aspects of my game, so I don't really have a strong opinion on the matter.

On to more important matters: we are currently running second in overall post count. Surely we can at least win the award for most posts by a SGOTM5 team!

IIRC Murky Waters keep winning the award for most posts :( Besides doesn't going for that show a lack of ambition? :p The fact that both CFR and CRC are in this SGOTM is neither here nor there. :mischief:

Ok, I'll settle the original spot. :crazyeye: Tech order will be Agri, AH, Mining & BW. The reason for the long tech order is that the barbs may gift us some techs. Build order is Warrior -> Settler -> Worker unless I hear to the contrary.

OK. Go for it!

(I'm also interested to see our first snippets of the world revealed at turn 6, when the first animals start spying for us)

On to more important matters: we are currently running second in overall post count. Surely we can at least win the award for most posts by a SGOTM5 team!

Anyway, city placement is one of the weakest aspects of my game, so I don't really have a strong opinion on the matter.

Just doing my bit for our post count :D

I noticed that the new team (Misfits) were the first to make a save - yesterday they put their 3400BC up on the board - and yet they had only made 33 posts (iirc) in their team thread. That's definitely all action and no chat. (Can't understand it meself)

Murky Waters are the blabbermouths of the bunch. 139 posts to our 114. And they haven't reached their first save yet either.

Murky Waters are the blabbermouths of the bunch.

As I posted earlier Murky Waters do tend to be rather wordy. Somewhat unfairly they often get rather more views as well. :( As if quantity should be more valued than quality. :D

@Sam_Yeager
By the way, when do you imagine that you'll be playing out your next moves?
This evening?

@Sam_Yeager
By the way, when do you imagine that you'll be playing out your next moves?
This evening?

Late afternoon/evening (ish). Suffering Civ pangs are we?:lol:

Late afternoon/evening (ish). Suffering Civ pangs are we?:lol:

:lol:
Yes!
But t'wasn't really why I asked.
I've been at home this week, moving several tons of stones/rocks into the back garden (prison chain gangs come to mind). I'll be doing some more today, and was wondering when to check back in.
If I get bored, I can have another peek at BTS ;)

Part way through my turn. Most of our land looks like jungle. Toku, Cyrus & Izzy are on the large island to the E. Saladin is on the island to the S and is reachable by galley.

Should I still go for settler next & then worker? I've uploaded the current save to this thread so you can see the current situation.

Save 3850 BC (http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/79775/Temujin_BC-3580.Civ4SavedGame)

Interesting!
Firstly, does everyone have 0 score on your game in progress? They do on the savegame when I load it, but I think this is the mod problem that (I think) Gyathaar mentioned in the maint thread - except he referred to it happening on 4000BC. Looks like it happens each time a save is loaded. No worries, though.

Love the lions in the capital :lol: . That never happened to me in trials.

As you said, the land is pretty awful, unless the much anticipated horses and metals are revealed. That'll change things a bit. Otherwise, perhaps we should live elsewhere ;)

The Arabs seem to be the closest, unless the little island to the NE leads on to anyone, or anything interesting is revealed from the SE of our island.

Fractal archipelago seems to mean "We get the cruddy little island, while several AI share large lush continents!"

As you said, Izzy, Toku and Cyrus are sharing a big land mass half a world away to the E. Add Asoka to that. I'm sure he's up to the NE of the same mass.

Alexander seems to be just to their West (I can see by zooming way out and turning on cultural shading) Can't tell if he's connected to their continent, or offshore on his own.

What do we make of our little land? So far we can only see these resources that are not within the range of the capital:
3xSilks; Banana; Rice.
The only place that looks like a possible city2 is down at the far end, where we could place it to include rice+silk+banana+hill. Not great.

I'm intrigued by the grassland patch in the centre that runs W-E and has silks at the E end. It's an unusual sight to have this kind of clearing in the jungle. I get the feeling other resources might be revealed here - or my psychic powers may be misfiring.

In answer to your question - settler or worker next? - I am more inclined to change my mind now and go for a worker. We can work the bananas and pigs by the time the worker's out. Remember the barbs won't steal any city sites for another 65 turns or so. Long before then we should know if there are horses around, and we can nip in and settle there before them.

PS. I think Izzy has popped a hut and released barbs :)
In the central area of the big continent, there are 2 barb warriors - on turn 14!
One of Izzy's units seems to be legging it to the south. :lol:

Interesting!
Firstly, does everyone have 0 score on your game in progress? They do on the savegame when I load it, but I think this is the mod problem that (I think) Gyathaar mentioned in the maint thread - except he referred to it happening on 4000BC. Looks like it happens each time a save is loaded. No worries, though.

I'm pretty certain everyone has a score in my game. Don't have the game open at present to check.


In answer to your question - settler or worker next? - I am more inclined to change my mind now and go for a worker. We can work the bananas and pigs by the time the worker's out. Remember the barbs won't steal any city sites for another 65 turns or so. Long before then we should know if there are horses around, and we can nip in and settle there before them.

I've been thinking further and wonder whether I should get a settler down south in case Saladin tries to settle there. On balance though I doubt that he's likely to settle that early. I'll probably go for worker next.

I'm pretty certain everyone has a score in my game. Don't have the game open at present to check.

I'm pretty sure it's this problem that I'm seeing: here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=5726587&postcount=34)
I tried loading one of my trial game saves and the same thing happened. However, it seems the problem goes away after you end turn. Looks like it'll be with us throughout this SGOTM each time we hand a save on to the next player.

I've been thinking further and wonder whether I should get a settler down south in case Saladin tries to settle there. On balance though I doubt that he's likely to settle that early. I'll probably go for worker next.

I can't see Saladin planting his second city overseas, so I don't think we have too much to worry about. If he does think of settling there before we do, I vote we take his city off him - and then kill him!

4000 BC - 3130 BC

Temujin glared at his advisors. "We've spent 30 years camping here whilst our scouts explored the lands near here. And now you tell me this spot is the best place to build a city?".

"Great despot Temujin", said his senior advisor in a quavering voice, "The land in this region is not nearly as good as expected. Even this spot is not that good. It's just less bad than other places."

"Very well", growled Temujin, "so be it. For your sake, and your neck, this had better be the right decision!" And so Karakorum was founded. First priority was to build some military protection. Looking at the fertile land it was decided to research a way to make use of it.

Scouts were sent to explore Temujin's new dominion. Temujin's barbarian allies were instructed to explore the world. Periodic barbarian messengers told of the discovery of a large and lush island, continent sized, to the east of Temujin's island. To make matters worse they informed him that this lush land was inhabitated by some of his worst enemies, namely Tokugawa, Isabella, Asoka and Cyrus. Temujin's temper was not helped by the discovery of large amounts of jungle in his lands. A passing traveller told of the establishment of a religion called Buddhism by Asoka before his untimely demise at the hands of Temujin's executioners.

Barbarian allies told of the discovery of Saladin on an island to the south of Temujin's lands. Following a discussion with his advisor about the extensive jungle Temujin decided that it was better to work the existing land prior to establishing a new city. Towards the end of Temujin's reign scouts discovered gold and stone in the hitherto unexplored SE portion of his island.


http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k182/mrprab/SGOTM05/TemujinLands-3130BC.jpg

Turn saves (http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/79775/Temujin_4000BC-3190BC.zip)

EDIT: Looks like I got the number of turns wrong. Oh well, the next player up can play an extra turn.

EDIT 2: All the scores will read zero when you load the save. The correct scores re-appear once the end turn button is pressed. Obviously a glitch in Gyathaar's mod.

Roster

Sam - just played
drhirsch - UP
Harbourboy - on deck
AgedOne
markh
The-Hawk
Pariah (skipped until he reports being available)

Nice writeup, Sam. :goodjob: You want to write a spoiler ?

I have not yet patched my game, so I cannot load the save, yet. Will do that tomorrow. Our lands do not look that beautiful. I think we have to do some island hopping. :hammer:

I changed the build order to get a worker first because in my opinion, at the time, there was no really suitable spot for a settler. In addition I felt that the settler would build faster if we build a farm with the worker whilst waiting for AH. Hopefully the rest of the team won't think that was too much of a :smoke: move.

Now that the island has been more thoroughly explored it looks like there are only two spots worth settling until we get IW. The one down to the SW is IMHO only really worth settling to stop Saladin going there. The spot by the gold and stone looks far more desirable. However I would suggest that we road down to there before we found a city to minimise maintenance costs.

You want to write a spoiler ?


That's been a bit of a disaster area for Geezer's for the last few games. :( I'll think about it but I would prefer not to do it.

That's been a bit of a disaster area for Geezer's for the last few games. :( I'll think about it but I would prefer not to do it.

I was just joking. The overall spoiler writing was quite light. I do not see any reason to write one at all.

Worker is fine with me.:goodjob: We should find a good production spot to crank out units. After the worker we can build a settler to claim that spot.

Will download and play this evening.

Before we get ahead of ourselves... let's look at the big picture. I think we see enough to pick a victory condition and develop our grand strategy (this is the nice part of barb allies). If we are going to finish near the top, we need to develop a strategy and focus on it. For example, depending on our victory condition, we might not want to invade Saladin at all (ever). I think we might even change our choice for next tech! (see below)

Seems obvious to me that two victory conditions are bad options:

Culture: Culture win looks unlikely. Our capital is not a great legendary city with all of its ocean tiles. There is probably only one decent commerce site (to the west) and no GP factory. It looks like Saladin's island is the only reachable one, and it is pretty crappy too. Maybe his partly hidden capital could be a legendary city, but that still leaves us short a city. No point in going for culture if we have to attack another island. This will require Astronomy, which means our last culture city starts real late. At that point, we might as well go for Dom.

Conquest: Seems pointless. It would require chasing the AI's on all the out islands. Dom would come much sooner.

This leaves two that victory conditions that could work:

Space: Of course, space could be accomplished, the question is how fast? If going for space, I would grab Saladin's island and stop invasions there. However, both of those islands are pretty poor, so this might be a slow launch.

Domination: If we are going for Dom, then we it looks like we need to attack the large continent. I don't think all the small islands added together will provide enough land for Dom. However, the large continent alone is enough for Dom (I counted roughly 600-700 tiles), although we should recount once the barbs show us the rest of the land. Given we need to attack the main continent for Dom, is there any reason to attack the other small islands (e.g. Saladin)? It will simply create maintenance cost on crappy land.

My vote:

Sigh... I think Dom is the way to go. Looks to me like the fastest option.

So, I'm thinking the best path to Dom is to settle our current island and crank up the research engine. This means settlers and cottages ASAP (I think maybe 5 more cities). I would also suggest we research Pottery next (not BW) so that we can get those cottages started immediately. We won't need axes for a few turns, nobody to attack.

We beeline for Astronomy and sail west for the mainland. Get a toehold there, maybe move our capital to minimize maint, then send the hordes West to victory.

Research will be critical... can't start our Dom until Astronomy and when we do go to the other continent, we want a clear tech advantage so we can get established. I would build very few early units, we simply don't need them... just a handful of axes and spears to protect our city near Saladin. Most of our units should ultimately be built on the new continent as we expand.

With respect to diplomacy... I would make peace with all the AI's asap. There is no reason for them all to be pissed at us when we go to the main continent, don't want our toehold to be dogpiled.

OK Geezers, what are your votes for victory condition???

Will download and play this evening.

Ermm.... What's your plan for the turnset in terms of builds, tech research etc? We've got until October so we can aford to wait a bit to discuss what we should do.

Nice analysis The-Hawk. :goodjob: I wish I could provide a convincing argument against your conclusion but that's not the case. The only thing I would point out is that backdoor diplo is also an option. In practice we may have shut down research before we get as far as that but we should bear the option in mind.

Domination: If we are going for Dom, then we it looks like we need to attack the large continent. I don't think all the small islands added together will provide enough land for Dom. However, the large continent alone is enough for Dom (I counted roughly 600-700 tiles), although we should recount once the barbs show us the rest of the land. Given we need to attack the main continent for Dom, is there any reason to attack the other small islands (e.g. Saladin)? It will simply create maintenance cost on crappy land.

I think we need to scout Saladin's before ruling him out as a target. If for no other reason than that he may well have better production than we do. If so then it would make sense to take him out first. Especially since we can reach him with galleys. In addition he may have a resource that we want.


So, I'm thinking the best path to Dom is to settle our current island and crank up the research engine. This means settlers and cottages ASAP (I think maybe 5 more cities). I would also suggest we research Pottery next (not BW) so that we can get those cottages started immediately. We won't need axes for a few turns, nobody to attack.

Two points:


We need IW before we can settle much of our island so we do need BW fairly soon on the path to IW.
With all that grassland I would hope we get a good GP farm going using farms.



We beeline for Astronomy and sail west for the mainland. Get a toehold there, maybe move our capital to minimize maint, then send the hordes West to victory.

Research will be critical... can't start our Dom until Astronomy and when we do go to the other continent, we want a clear tech advantage so we can get established.

The question is how do we get a tech lead? Unless the big four on lush island start fighting against each other they're likely to be busy trading techs between themselves.


With respect to diplomacy... I would make peace with all the AI's asap. There is no reason for them all to be pissed at us when we go to the main continent, don't want our toehold to be dogpiled.


Sounds a good idea. We should bear in mind that we'll get additional demerits when we re-declare war.

OK Geezers, what are your votes for victory condition???

Sadly, I am forced to agree with a Dom attempt. Sadly, only because we will be going with the herd. There's nothing wrong with Dom itself, of course.

Domination: If we are going for Dom, then we it looks like we need to attack the large continent. I don't think all the small islands added together will provide enough land for Dom. However, the large continent alone is enough for Dom (I counted roughly 600-700 tiles), although we should recount once the barbs show us the rest of the land. Given we need to attack the main continent for Dom, is there any reason to attack the other small islands (e.g. Saladin)? It will simply create maintenance cost on crappy land.


You're right. Unless Sal's land is going to be any use (and a quick scout wouldn't hurt) either because it's resource-rich, or because it leads somewhere, via an island chain, we should leave him be.

So, I'm thinking the best path to Dom is to settle our current island and crank up the research engine. This means settlers and cottages ASAP (I think maybe 5 more cities). I would also suggest we research Pottery next (not BW) so that we can get those cottages started immediately. We won't need axes for a few turns, nobody to attack.

As Sam_Yeager said (above), we will be needing IW to remove the jungle, so we shouldn't forget BW for too long. Apart from that, I agree with going pottery and cottage-spam.

As we settle, remember that the barbs will gleefully jump on those locations they consider the best. I'm reckoning they will like these areas to the East:

156780

and West:

156781

So we'll have to be in probably both areas by turn 80 if we want to deny them.

With respect to diplomacy... I would make peace with all the AI's asap. There is no reason for them all to be pissed at us when we go to the main continent, don't want our toehold to be dogpiled.
About half of the AI will probably be coming over to talk about peace pretty soon, in my experience. The ones who come of their own accord are those further down the scores than us, who are least aggressive. Those at the higher scores will probably not make peace for ages yet.

I agree, this looks like a Domination or Scpace Race, the former being faster.

My proposal for BW first was mainly because the whipping and the possible additional production from the copper square, not because of the axes.
Pottery has a nice synergy with slavery, because it doubles the efficiency of the whip. But on the other hand, you need something you want to whip, and we are currently lacking possible buildings.
Another point is the lack of food resources - you typically need 2 in a city you want to whip regularily. And cottaging and whiping don't go very well together...

But Sam has a point, we will need IW sooner or later, possibly sooner. I am undecided at the moment.

I honestly never have tried to setup a GP farm only with grassland farming. I think it will only be effective later in the game, when there are more happiness resources available. I usually do GP farms only with lots of food and production in a city.

If Saladin has a good capital, we should take it (maybe he does build the pyramids for us?!? :-), the remainder of his land looks even worse than ours.

I will try to come up with a dotmap later, and I think it will be 4-5 cities.

Ermm.... What's your plan for the turnset in terms of builds, tech research etc?

Build millions of troops, research phasers and then CRUSH IZZI of course.

I just wanted to throw in some lines, that I haven't forgotten you :-)


BTW, did anybody notice the stone?

The Great Prophet is never wrong!

Build millions of troops, research phasers and then CRUSH IZZI of course.

LOL! The Mongols and their Hordes - of Phaser Warriors :lol:

BTW, did anybody notice the stone?
The Great Prophet is never wrong!

Eerie, isn't it?
It's one of the things that I thought might attract the Barbs to the Eastern locations I marked on the map. However, I think they'll be more attracted by the Gold. I think we should get down there smartly!

Please avoid uploading your saves to this thread. There's a danger that someone will play forward from that save instead of from the one you eventually upload to the SGOTM server. Just upload all your saves to the SGOTM server. You don't have to wait until the end of your turn set.

I honestly never have tried to setup a GP farm only with grassland farming. I think it will only be effective later in the game, when there are more happiness resources available. I usually do GP farms only with lots of food and production in a city.


I'm certainly not suggesting that we set up a GP farm just now. It was more after we have cleared some of the jungle at which point lots of grassland farms generates loads of food to feed the specialists. :) In any case a GP farm is a non starter unless we either get a religion or more likely can build libraries. Caste system also tends to help. ;)

The only thing I would point out is that backdoor diplo is also an option. In practice we may have shut down research before we get as far as that but we should bear the option in mind.

Yes, I forgot about this one. My guess is we will reach Dom first, but as we get closer to the tech branch to Mass Media, we should consider this option.

I think we need to scout Saladin's before ruling him out as a target. If for no other reason than that he may well have better production than we do. If so then it would make sense to take him out first. Especially since we can reach him with galleys. In addition he may have a resource that we want.

You raise good points. Our initial island is not great on hammers. I am worried about maintenance though. Hopefully our barb friends will scout for us.

We need IW before we can settle much of our island so we do need BW fairly soon on the path to IW.

My proposal for BW first was mainly because the whipping and the possible additional production from the copper square, not because of the axes.

I think you've almost convinced me. As you point out, BW brings potential crucial hammers via copper. Another reminder, if BW gives our barbies early axemen, then we want it asap. This could be the best way to stunt the AIs tech on the lusher continents. A third factor... I'm for putting our second city down by the gold for the commerce boost (and a smilie). However, we need mining to make use of the gold.

I think IW is a lower priority. We can settle one or two cities away from jungles before we need to start jungle defoliation. One by gold, maybe one near Saladin. (By the way, it is going to take forever to clear all the jungles. This start island really sucks.)

So, I think there are two options for tech order after AH finishes:

Option 1:

Wheel
Pottery
Mining
BW
Writing
IW

Option 2:

Mining
BW (go barbies!)
Wheel
Pottery
Writing
IW

Option 1 means faster tech, but wimpy barbies. Option 2 will mean faster nasty barbies, but really slow tech. I think I like option 1 best. We've got to get off to a fast tech pace, and with this start, cottages are the only way.

The question is how do we get a tech lead? Unless the big four on lush island start fighting against each other they're likely to be busy trading techs between themselves.

As I said before, I think we must really focus on commerce in our initial island... cottages early and often. The challenge will be lack of trading because we are at war with everyone... this will really hold us back. Life would be better if some of the mainland AI's get into wars with each other.

With respect to diplomacy... I would make peace with all the AI's asap. There is no reason for them all to be pissed at us when we go to the main continent, don't want our toehold to be dogpiled.

I'm starting to rethink this as well. If I followed AgedOne's earlier post, making peace with an AI means Barbies do as well. We might want to stay at war until the era of the barbies is over. We need our barb buds to distract the AI's from teching.

One question:

Does anyone know if barb cities count towards our Dom limit? If so, this is another reason to avoid the small islands near the poles. Barbs often can get toeholds in icelands. Maybe we can get some cheap dom tiles via ice-barbs.

What are the preferences to win by culture ? This island is certainly not suitable for a dom or con game. We can get 6 - 8 cities up on our island, but I am not used to culture wins.

Option 1 means faster tech, but wimpy barbies. Option 2 will mean faster nasty barbies, but really slow tech. I think I like option 1 best. We've got to get off to a fast tech pace, and with this start, cottages are the only way.

I'm definitely for option 1 now, although I started out by advocating option 2 (or similar). Let's get those cottages down, but then with BW following soon after to reveal the copper / allow chopping / lead on to IW.
To put the idea of nasty barbies in perspective, in all of the trial games that I played, I only once saw the barbies do any serious damage to an AI. Most of the time - even if you arrange for them to get axemen - they are so brainless that they lose nearly 100% cheaply for no gain. The one good moment was when I ensured that they had swordsmen, and saw them take a city off Saladin :lol:

I'm starting to rethink this as well. If I followed AgedOne's earlier post, making peace with an AI means Barbies do as well. We might want to stay at war until the era of the barbies is over. We need our barb buds to distract the AI's from teching.
Yes, you followed my post and its implications precisely.


Does anyone know if barb cities count towards our Dom limit?
Pretty sure they do count. I just nipped back into a trial game, and played through the point where the first barb cities appeared. Our combined population % jumped from 9.5% to 11.1%.

What are the preferences to win by culture ? This island is certainly not suitable for a dom or con game. We can get 6 - 8 cities up on our island, but I am not used to culture wins.

I'm a totally inexperienced culture-monger. On the other hand, Hawk has got us all thinking about the possibility of a Dom victory. (You've probably already read this, but I wasn't sure from reading your post) I know our land is far from ideal, but he painted a fairly interesting picture in this (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=5741051&postcount=133) post of how we might go for one. Sam_Yeager and myself added our own thoughts afterwards.

I am pretty sure a dom victory is a viable one, but we will need to hop islands quite much, so I wanted to question what the requirements for a culture victory are. I have not played one for a culture victory. I read somewhere you need 6 cities for a culture victory. Our island would serve this, so could we achieve this ?

Ah. Sorry, I misunderstood.
I won't attempt to answer, though.
Let's wait for CultureBoy to come along. He'll know the answer for sure. :)

The more I see our island the more I like the try for a culture victory. It will be quite long to get a dom or even a con victory being that hammerless.

What are the preferences to win by culture ? This island is certainly not suitable for a dom or con game. We can get 6 - 8 cities up on our island, but I am not used to culture wins.

In a nutshell, the path to culture is:

- Settle/capture three cities to be your legendary cities. First and foremost, they need to be able to support tons of cottages. In my mind, a minimum of 12-13 commerce tiles, preferrably more.
- Settle/capture a fourth city to be a GP factory. This will spam GA's.
- Settle/capture enough support cities to build cathedrals. Depending on the map size, you need 3-4 temples per cathedral. I think on standard you need three temples, so you want a multiple of 3 cities. 6 cities at least, 9 if possible. I usually build my support cities to overlap my legendary. This lets my support cities work cottages in the legendary fat cross, increasing the rate at which all of my legendary cottages become towns.
- Build cottages asap. The sooner you get to towns, the faster you finish.
- Eventually, you will need several religions (either founded, captured or spread). I think 3 minimum, more is better.
- Univ Suffrage is a must for cash rushing cathedrals. Pyramids is key to getting suffrage (although not absolutely required). Parthenon is also nice for the GA farm.
- Race to liberalism, free speech is a must for the gold boost per town and 100% culture boost. Some people turn off tech after liberalism, some continue to nationalism for hermitage. If you miss pyramids, then you need to tech all the way democracy for suffrage.
- Turn off tech, then switch to suffrage to allow cash rushing. Spam religions to all of your cities, rush temples, then cathedrals in the three legendary cities.
- Once cathdrals are built, turn culture slider to 100% and watch the town-filled legendary cities rack up culture.
- All along, you've been creating GAs in your farm. At some point, you have enough of them to culture bomb your cities the rest of the way to legendary.

The issue with our start is we don't have 3 candidate locations that will allow 13+ cottages. Because it is coastal, our capital is not a good candidate. We might have one legendary location on our start island to the west (by the rice/bananas), but this is also our best potential spot for a GA farm. Maybe could find a spot for one on Saladins island. However, bottom line, I don't see three legendary locations, plus a GA location. Even worse, our potential site on the initial island is covered by jungles, so we will be very late starting cottages.

I am in full-on culture mode at the moment, having just missed a Deity cultural win in G Major 14. But the G Major scenario is so very different, that even on Deity, you can be lulled into a false sense of security as to what is possible on a GOTM map, with no second chances.

The main issue I have with cultural in this game is that we aren't financial or philosophical. You need Extreme Cottages and a Great-Artist-A-Thon to win quickly. It also helps to have friendly neighbours who won't stab you in the back when your capital is guarded by Picasso waving an ornately carved wooden club.

So, we need a more balanced approach in this game because we don't know what's around the next corner.

Looks like we crossed posts... my concerns with culture are above your post.

The main issue I have with cultural in this game is that we aren't financial or philosophical. You need Extreme Cottages and a Great-Artist-A-Thon to win quickly. It also helps to have friendly neighbours who won't stab you in the back when your capital is guarded by Picasso waving an ornately carved wooden club.

I completely agree with all of this. Our traits are not the best for culture.

So, we need a more balanced approach in this game because we don't know what's around the next corner.

I don't agree with this ;) . If we want to finish high, we need to pick a path and charge down it. If we hedge our bets, we might have less chance of a disaster, but we will finish middle of the pack at best. On thing I've learned from HOF is speed = focus.

I think culture is out. No chance to achieve a quick win with our island. I am thinking of whipping an army and a naval force to dispose any opponent.:cheers:

Typical! I go away for a few hours and there's a flurry of activity. :)

I've been thinking what are the minimum techs we need, in addition to those already mentioned in The-Hawk's post, to go a warring against Lush island. We really don't want to research unnecessary techs. I'm assuming that swords won't give us enough of a military lead so I'm working on the basis that we'll need at least maces. Perhaps also some horse archers since they're our UU.

Minimum additional techs required
Fishing
Sailing
Compass
Optics
Astronomy (Galleons)
Mysticism (Monuments)
Masonry
Construction (Cats)
Horseback Riding (UU)
Metal Casting
Machinery
Code of Laws (to reduce maintenance costs)
Civil Service (Maces)
Alphabet
Mathematics
Currency (to help pay for our cities)
Calendar (Happiness)
Drama (Happiness slider & culture)
Literature (Heroic Epic)

Some of these like Myst I would expect to get from our barb allies but that still leaves a fair amount to research. If we need to get to grens then that's even more to research. I may have missed some prerequisite techs in my list but hopefully the rest of you can point out any omissions.

So, team, what's our advice to drhirsch who's currently limbering up for his turnset tonight in his en-suite civ gym?
I'm guessing we are saying:
Research Animal Husb - Wheel - Pottery - Mining - BW
Build Worker - Settler (- Laser Cannon)
Diplomacy - is for wimps. Make peace with no-one.
Music - Something warlike, to get us in the mood for the future :)


By the way, are we on 10-turn turnsets now? Or do we throw a couple of 20-turns in first?

PS. I predict the Barbs will give us Archery around turn 35.

By the way, are we on 10-turn turnsets now? Or do we throw a couple of 20-turns in first?


I think the next turnset should be 20 . The tech and build order look ok.

I am pretty sure a dom victory is a viable one, but we will need to hop islands quite much

I'm still an advocate of one hop to the main continent. If we establish a good base there, the rest of the game will be like a straightforward pangea dom.

On other thought... it might make sense to try for neutral relations with one civ on the eastern part of the main continent. If we can get OB with one civ, we can build up a bigger invasion army without building tons of galleons. Use a neutral civ to base an invasion on another AI, then use the conquered lands to turn around and backstab the first. Has anyone ever done a galleon chain? Might be another way to invade...

I'm aligned with AgedOne's summary for drhirsch. I assume the settler will not be this turnset, but if it is, we should talk again before we pick a spot for the next city. In fact, if anyone is into dotmaps, maybe we can start one and discuss all our future city locations.

A very rough and ready dot map to get the discussion rolling. :D


http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k182/mrprab/SGOTM05/DotMap3130BC.jpg


Yellow is to block Salandin/serve as springboard to attack Saladin. Red and blue are to snag both the gold and stone as well as some food to allow the cities to grow. Brown serves as a springboard to attack lush island. Green is a potential GP farm/commerce city.

On other thought... it might make sense to try for neutral relations with one civ on the eastern part of the main continent.

IIRC Izzy is the most eastward civ whilst I believe Asoka is in the NE. I put up some signs on lush island to help track down the civs.

A very rough and ready dot map to get the discussion rolling. :D

Yellow is to block Salandin/serve as springboard to attack Saladin. Red and blue are to snag both the gold and stone as well as some food to allow the cities to grow. Brown serves as a springboard to attack lush island. Green is a potential GP farm/commerce city.


I like this dot-map and think it is a very reasonable initial position for us to take. The only change I would make, knowing what we do right now, is to place City Blue one tile to the East, which would bring the hills into range while still keeping the gold and rice in the cross.

Things might change a bit once we know if and where we have copper and horses.

My guesswork is usually 100% inaccurate, but I feel the most likely place for horses is the grassland of City Yellow, while I'd just love the hills of City Blue to one day reveal copper!

As I was saying earlier, I expect the barbs to jump into somewhere near the gold as their first choice, or somewhere over by the rice and bananas in the West as their second. I doubt whether we can settle both of these areas (say Blue and Brown) before they take one of them, which is a bit sad.

The other thing that's likely to happen, even if we manage to grab both of these spots by turn 80-ish time, is that the barbs will jump in and take the stone location. That's annoying, as we don't fit so many cities onto our island as we planned, although we should still be able to treat the roads as our own, etc.

Research Animal Husb - Wheel - Pottery - Mining - BW
Build Worker - Settler (- Laser Cannon)
Diplomacy - is for wimps. Make peace with no-one.
Music - Something warlike, to get us in the mood for the future :)



Teching - I think you overestimate early cottages somewhat. We are not financial. I think production to get our settlers out is more important in the very ealry game. Besides, this won't let us use the gold early, which is way more useful than a cottage.

Building - I would have preferred Settler before Worker, but the Worker is almost done :-)
Settler will not be finished during my turnset, so I won't settle anything :-)

Diplo - I strongly agree at the diplomacy settings. As long as we are at war, the AIs are somewhat slowed down. They probably won't loose any cities, but they will focus on early military and infrastructure and tech will be slowed down.

156848

I agree on he red, blue, yellow cities, but I would shift green and brown one square to the right. Lower maintenance and more grassland used.
There is a possible city at pink instead of red, but it requires culture first. Pink is a better city longterm than red, it has 2 hills and one grassland more than red and somewhat smaller maintenance.

Should we settle the blue or the red city first?

Blue allows the gold for early happiness and is a good commerce and sience boost. This requires mining which would be due in about 64 turns, if we go wheel - pottery - mining. Our settler will arrive in less than 40 turns. If we don't do wheel, on the other hand, our worker will have nothing to do after farming the bananas and hooking up the pigs. So we probably should do wheel - mining - pottery. Or wheel - mining - BW - pottery.
Anyway, wheel is required to avoid unemployment of our worker.

Red is near the stones. The Great Prophet would probably pleased if settle there first, but unfortunatly we are missing the right techs to make use of the stones. We could found our third city there around turn 85, if we do BW before mining and use the whip. Masonry could be researched at turn 100, the pyramids should be finished in turn 135, probably before any of the other civs :-)

It is a shame that cultural is out, but we must push for victory. Onwards and upwards.

After doing the very first "press ENTER for next turn" turns, I am seeing that my calculations are off. The tech rate is higher than expected, even if the barbs are researching something different.

IThe only change I would make, knowing what we do right now, is to place City Blue one tile to the East, which would bring the hills into range while still keeping the gold and rice in the cross.


Sounds like a sensible change despite bringing more desert into the BFC.

Teching - I think you overestimate early cottages somewhat. We are not financial. I think production to get our settlers out is more important in the very ealry game. Besides, this won't let us use the gold early, which is way more useful than a cottage.

Whilst Pottery allows cottages, it also allows granaries which are very helpful when whipping. I'm not too bothered if Mining comes before Pottery.


I agree on he red, blue, yellow cities, but I would shift green and brown one square to the right. Lower maintenance and more grassland used.
There is a possible city at pink instead of red, but it requires culture first. Pink is a better city longterm than red, it has 2 hills and one grassland more than red and somewhat smaller maintenance.

Well I did say it was very rough map. :) Both green and brown will take a while to settle. I put brown as far west as possible since it was likely to be a springboard city for the invasion. Also I was hoping there might be some seafood in the fog.

Placing blue one more to the east is not very useful. The desert hill you get will be +3 H mined. In any case, you will want to work the gold first, since it will be +3H +7C.
This means, as soon as you work the desert hill, the city will stagnate in growth, this is for +3H. Another option stalling the growth would be working the 2 plains with cottages instead of the desert Hill. The city would be 1 pop bigger and instead generating 2H + x C (from cottages). I have written before I prefer early production, but even for me the commerce from 2 cottages is better than one lousy Hammer.

Additionally, the city is an inland city, which has a lot of non-lightousable sea, no traderoutes and which will stay small forever.

Placing blue one more to the east is not very useful. The desert hill you get will be +3 H mined. In any case, you will want to work the gold first, since it will be +3H +7C.
This means, as soon as you work the desert hill, the city will stagnate in growth, this is for +3H. Another option stalling the growth would be working the 2 plains with cottages instead of the desert Hill. The city would be 1 pop bigger and instead generating 2H + x C (from cottages). I have written before I prefer early production, but even for me the commerce from 2 cottages is better than one lousy Hammer.

Additionally, the city is an inland city, which has a lot of non-lightousable sea, no traderoutes and which will stay small forever.

Phew! I stand corrected.

And again, the Great Prophet has proven to be right!

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n217/hirschhornsalz/horses.jpg

Meanwhile, our brethen have scouted the land and found Alex an a proably very small island about 10 tiles east from our eastmost coast.

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n217/hirschhornsalz/alex.jpg

Qin is located far in the north.

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n217/hirschhornsalz/qin.jpg

So far it seems, Saladin, Alex and Qin have crappy land, while the others are on a big continent.

Archery came in at turn 35, as predicted, and without hunting.

Hinduism is founded somewhere distant at turn 44. We could probably have researched it self, but in my opinion this religious crap is hardly ever worth it. Don't let the Great Prophet hear this.

At Turn 50, in 2500 BC we finally learned to make somewhat roundish slices from wood and call it "wheel". This is my last turn, I switched to Mining, and look at this:

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n217/hirschhornsalz/mining.jpg

Mining is almost half researched! And not only mining, a look in the tech tree reveals that masonry, fishing, hunting and mysticism are somewhat researched too (but nor almost half). Our barbarian brethen seem to learn a lot.

PS: I have accidently deleted my first save, shortly after the worker was trained (stupid me, should not play at 3:30 am. Don't drink and play!). I have played it again from the start, which wasn't so hard even for me, since it was setting up a path for the scout and pressing enter a couple of times.

All hail the Gt Prophet!!
(Does he do metals, too?)

A fine turnset, drhirsch. :)

So far it seems, Saladin, Alex and Qin have crappy land, while the others are on a big continent.

As The-Hawk said, if we concentrate on taking the big lush continent, and leave the small nobodies alone, then we'll have a domination.

Archery came in at turn 35, as predicted, and without hunting. The prophesy!!!! I can almost see those hordes of Keshiks already!

Hinduism is founded somewhere distant at turn 44. We could probably have researched it self, but in my opinion this religious crap is hardly ever worth it. Don't let the Great Prophet hear this. :lol: Yes. We, the warlike Mongolians, intent on world domination, have no need of the religious crap.:lol:

Mining is almost half researched! And not only mining, a look in the tech tree reveals that masonry, fishing, hunting and mysticism are somewhat researched too (but nor almost half). Our barbarian brethen seem to learn a lot.
Excellent! They do move in mysterious ways.

PS: I have deleted my first save, shortly after the worker was trained (stupid me, should not play at 3:30 am. Don't drink and play!). I have played it again from the start, which wasn't so hard even for me, since it was setting up a path for the scout and pressing enter a couple of times. Best not to tell the Gt Prophet about this either! (Though maybe we should tell AlanH . . . it might look like an illegal reload & we don't want to fall foul of the reload police :()

I didn't delete the save on purpose, it was accidently, sorry for not being clear.

I didn't delete the save on purpose, it was accidently, sorry for not being clear.

No. I didn't think that at all. I'm just wary (from playing in GOTMs) that certain things make your save file look suspicious, and at worst can lead to your entry being excluded.

I'm sure we have nothing to worry about. It was quite evidently an accident. It was early in the game & there was nothing crucial going on that anyone would have wanted to re-try (e.g. combat, city placement). It'll be fine.

I have sent drhirsch a warning PM.

If a problem arises, please contact me. Do NOT replay turns under ANY circumstances. Make sure your .ini file is set to autosave every turn and use the last autosave if you crash.

Meanwhile, our brethen have scouted the land and found Alex an a proably very small island about 10 tiles east from our eastmost coast.


A pity Thrallia is not with the team. We could have sent him round to restrain The_Hawk. :lol: Joking aside, I think we can see our first target. :hammer: :assimilate: It's on the way to lush island, Alex is a confirmed backstabber, not to mention an obnoxious so and so, and The-Hawk has somewhat of an obsession with bumping off Alex.

EDIT: My mistake, I thought Alex was to the west of us, rather to the east. Perhaps we may need a city in the far east to bridge the ocean? It seems as though we can reach lush island without waiting for Astro. :)

EDIT 2: I wonder if Alex has copper for spears yet? Chariot rush might be feasible. Only Toku and Cyrus have met Alex so far and of those only Toku likes him. :hmm:

EDIT 3: :mad: Looks like we need two culture expansions to get to Alex's island. :(


Mining is almost half researched! And not only mining, a look in the tech tree reveals that masonry, fishing, hunting and mysticism are somewhat researched too (but nor almost half). Our barbarian brethen seem to learn a lot.


Yes this was mentioned in the pre SGOTM05 thread IIRC. It also explains why our tech pace seemed faster than you expected.

All in all this was a nice productive turnset. :goodjob:

However please take Alan's warning PM seriously and be that little bit more careful in future. Changing your .ini file to take autosaves every turm is a good idea whether or not you're playing a SGOTM.

Hinduism is founded somewhere distant at turn 44.


From the screenshot it seems Toku founded it. :mischief: Excellent :D , it looks like we can expect Toku & Asoka to be on bad terms. The mystery is what on earth is Izzy doing?

EDIT: I notice from the save that they're at war. :D

found Alex

:hmm: someone say "Alex"???

:drool:

EDIT 3: :mad: Looks like we need two culture expansions to get to Alex's island. :(

Actually, it looks to me like one culture expansion is enough. If we settle the southernmost tile (not eastern), can we bridge in one? In either case, I think our strategy changes... certainly no reason to wait for astronomy now. :hammer:

A couple of thoughts:


I think we have to assume Alex has copper (or iron), which means Phalanx's. We'd better bring something a little more substantial than chariots (or horse archers for that matter). If we don't have copper...

I notice the western part of lush island is AI free and crawling with barbies. I'll bet the barbies establish a city or two to the west before the AI's spread. We might be able to get a toehold on the island without actually invading anyone.

We really need to get some cottages started asap. If we don't, our invasion of Alex will cripple our economy.

I wonder if we should consider colossus? I almost never build it, but with our cash poor island, we might need to.

The problem with the southernmost site to bridge Alex is it will be a sucky city. Probably won't break even, and building a structure to start culture expansion will take forever. However, I think the opportunity to bridge to lush island before Astronomy is huge. The sooner we get this city up, the better.

I like drhirsch's upgrades to Sam's dot maps. Moving the green over and moving red to pink brings two dyes into fat crosses, providing critical commerce.

However, I would consider moving the blue city North one tile. This would give it access to the stones and create a decent prod city. Eventually pink dot could use the stones, but I think pink dot is a while away. My order for cities: blue dot (moved one north), southernmost tile to bridge Alex, then pink dot (unless by some chance we have IW by then, in which case, I'd go for one of the jungle sites).

Roster

Sam
drhirsch - just played
Harbourboy - UP
AgedOne - on deck
markh
The-Hawk
Pariah (skipped until he reports being available)

I hope Harbourboy finds some time to play this beside all his HOF tries. :)

Well, I think we will have some internal issues. :D I HATE Izzy :trouble: . She has to go first.

Well, I think we will have some internal issues. :D I HATE Izzy :trouble: . She has to go first.

:lol: If we go east, with galleys, then we will meet Alex first. ;) After Alex the next two civs are Cyrus & Toku. Toku is currently pleased with Alex so we may well need to take him down before we can get to Izzy. :p


I wonder if we should consider colossus? I almost never build it, but with our cash poor island, we might need to.


It's not a bad idea. However we will need to delay our military buildup due to our lack of production. OTOH we may need it to pay for the military. :dunno:

Woah, is it my turn already? That came around quickly. Let me get started then.

Actually, re-reading the above comments, I see no consensus as to what our next objective is.

Have we agreed where to deposit that first settler?

I've had another look and it seems as though we do need two city expansions. The pic below shows the initial city size as well as the first & second expansions.


http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k182/mrprab/SGOTM05/ReachAlex.jpg

Given that an obelisk only gives 1 :culture: per turn IIRC and we need to get to 150 :culture: for two expansions it may be better to go for Astro after all. :(

I've done another dot map which I think takes into account people's comments. :)


http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k182/mrprab/SGOTM05/DotMap3130BCv2.jpg

Pink dot may no longer be needed if we can't get to Alex early(ish).

Stone and Gold in one city sounds fine, but I deliberatle avoided a blue dot like in the last map. The reason is: If it works both resources, it will not grow. But worked stones are better than a worked desert hill, so this might be useful for a temporary production increase.

How about wonders?

A pop 4 city could build the pyramids there in 34 turns (pyramids cost 600 at epic?), but it needs a obelisk (~8 turns) and a culture expansion (15 turns) more than a city directly besides the stone. OTOH a city besides the stones would have less production, additionally the gold comes online later, because we need a second city for it.

Hmm, thinking again about it, the blue dot in the last map doesn't seem so bad :-)

Some ideas:

Settle blue. Send worker to farm rice, mine gold, build a obelisk while growing. After BW go for masonry, as soon as the border pops, work stones.

In the meantime build a second settler and a second worker in the main city (not sure about the order).

Some ideas:

Settle blue. Send worker to farm rice, mine gold, build a obelisk while growing. After BW go for masonry, as soon as the border pops, work stones.

In the meantime build a second settler and a second worker in the main city (not sure about the order).

IIRC the worker can't farm the rice until until blue dot expands. :) However mining the gold and building roads will keep the worker busy anyway.

I'm not sure that we want to build another settler and worker in the capital immediately. It might be nice to let it grow a bit.

Actually, re-reading the above comments, I see no consensus as to what our next objective is.

Have we agreed where to deposit that first settler?

Perhaps it may be worth posting your views on what you should do for the next turnset. I've often found this tends to focus people's minds.

IIRC the worker can't farm the rice until until blue dot expands. :)


Ooops :-)
This slows down the growth. One more reason to build a Obelisk there.


I'm not sure that we want to build another settler and worker in the capital immediately. It might be nice to let it grow a bit.

As long as it would be only working unimproved tiles after growing there would be only small returns. At size 2 it has a production+food overflow of 10 IIRC, it could build a settler in 15 turns. if you let it grow to work the unimproved bananas, it has 11 overflow and will build a settler in 14 turns. If the whip gets ready, things might look different though.

Perhaps it may be worth posting your views on what you should do for the next turnset.

I lack whatever quality is required for being able to see into the future and plan turns ahead of time (like so many of you guys seem to be able to do). I will be playing tomorrow morning and will be following some vague general strategy accompanied by "whatever seems like a good idea at the time". Given that the settling of a city will take place during this turn, it would be in all our best interests if an agreement is reached on where exactly this should be, otherwise you will be stuck with a crappy city for the rest of the game.

My thoughts on settling

When the settler completes (in 5) we plant Beshbalik at site Blue.
The latest position of Blue - 1 tile E of gold - looks like a good choice to me.

(Maybe I'm getting paranoid about this, but I feel the barbs will settle on our land anywhere between turn 65 and turn 100. When they do, they'll take the best resource that we have left. If we placed Blue to cover the gold only, they will take the stone. This latest position covers both, and forces them to look elsewhere)

Some other stuff about the next 20 turns or so:

Research
We'll finish Mining in 7.
Next could be Pottery or Bronze Working.
Difficult choice. Pottery gets the cottages going sooner. Bronze allows the whip, and chopping.
We are likely to learn Fishing and Hunting from the barbs soon, as they are half-researched. That doesn't help the decision any, though.
I'd go for pottery, as I think our best hopes for victory lie with gaining a fast tech progress.
(On the other hand, if we fancy our chances taking out Alex with axes on galleys, perhaps Bronze is the way.)

Builds
Karakorum will complete the settler in 5.
I'd go for another worker, to follow the settler down and work the gold.

Beshbalik, when it's founded, would like a obelisk as it really needs a culture expansion, but we can't provide that until we have Mysticism. The barb's are not likely to give us that any time soon, so perhaps we should put it on the tech path. In the meantime, probably a warrior to act as MP.

I've had another look and it seems as though we do need two city expansions. The pic below shows the initial city size as well as the first & second expansions.

Sorry Sam, I still see it as one. Can't we go into the tile to the South of the one you marked "Ocean"? See my addition to you pic:

157032

Sorry about the double post. I agree with next city being the new blue dot (east of gold). I also like Pottery over BW.

As far as next build, I would like to see the capital grow. However, if we are going to research pottery, I could agree with AgedOne's suggestion of another worker so we can actually build said cottages (and also mine the gold). If we are going to research BW next, then I would stick a chariot in there so the pop can grow.

Sorry Sam, I still see it as one. Can't we go into the tile to the South of the one you marked "Ocean"? See my addition to you pic:

:blush: I think you're probably right.. For some reason I got it into my mind that you could only go across at right angles to lines. :blush:

I suppose it does make rather more sense on Gyathaar's part to make the gap passable.

I'm all for blue dot, pottery and a worker or even another settler. As we do not have to fear the barbs I would continue building workers and settlers. MPs can be built as soon as the happiness cap is about to be reached. Let's settle the most possible good spots on our island before the barbs do so.

EDIT : I have not checked how long it would take to research BW, but this would give our team mates axes and we could chop forrests to speed up settler builds. The more I think of this the more I like to do BW before Pottery. Depends a bit on the time necessary to research BW.

So far there is an agreement to settle the blue spot.

For the build order in the capital we have three suggestions, worker/settler, settler/worker and "let it grow".
As I wrote before, IMHO letting the capital grow doesn't really make sense until you have something useful to do with the additional pop. Consider that, please.

What should we build in the new city? A obelisk is required, but we lack the technology for it. A worker? Then we could do a settler in the capital. We need to watch our maintenance closely after we plant our third city. But AFAIK settling 3 additional cities besides the capital doesn't hurt your economy much at monarch level.

The Great Prohpet does see some large Pyramids in Beshbalisk, but this is far in the future. But we need some careful decisions now, to make this immense undertaking possible.

As I wrote before, research is somewhat accelerated, and the tier 1 techs might even come in without any researching at all.

We need 3 techs fast ATM: BW, Masonry and Mysicism.
Harbourboy, you could watch the tech rate in the F6 screen for techs we are NOT currently researching and try to estimate when it will come up (should have done this by myself). I would delay Masonry further in favour of BW, to give our brethen access to those nice sharp axes.

But my view is probably skewed, since I don't like the CE/Cottage Spam play style very much anymore. But I have to admit, a year ago I spammed cottages all over the world :-)

Pyramids and Oracle would be nice, although I would put more emphasis to the oracle for COL or even maths/construction for early cats. However I am not that sure we should start any wonder at all. The more I think of it the more I think BW is very important now. If we do not have any copper we have to go for IW or HBR. Imagine we have one copper resource on our island, but while we research something else the barbs have placed a city there. I do not know the mechanics, but do we get copper from the barbs automatically then ? Could we improve the tile for them or would we have to wait until they build a worker and hook up the copper ? Could we gift a worker ?
That being said I even would prefer to research BW next and build a settler to claim that spot if it pops up in the open somewhere immediately.

I would guess that some teams will not build any infra at all. This game is all about speed, so if we start building military too late we will have a harder time. I do not think we can afford to build wonders in our second city. Killing a first civ with just axes might be out of question then.

Usually I do not cottage capitols that much, but here I think we are that hammerless that we should turn this city into a commerce/science centre. I see this city getting whipped a lot.:whipped: Our city at the blue dot will have to be our military provider.

BTW I opened the save once. All scores were 0 except ours. Is that normal or do I have to get in contact with the staff ?

I would guess that some teams will not build any infra at all. This game is all about speed, so if we start building military too late we will
Usually I do not cottage capitols that much, but here I think we are that hammerless that we should turn this city into a commerce/science centre. I see this city getting whipped a lot.:whipped: Our city at the blue dot will have to be our military provider.

:hmm: Whipping and cottages don't go that well. Farms might be better in the short term.


BTW I opened the save once. All scores were 0 except ours. Is that normal or do I have to get in contact with the staff ?

It's a glitch in the special game mod. Nothing to worry about.

You can use cottages to regrow the cities, but basically you are right. If you just use farms you might grow your city back too fast in the 15 turns of whipping unhappyness. Then I like to use cottages to regrow the city. Depends on the city size of course.

Got it. Playing now.

157096

Karakorum finishes: Settler
Karakorum begins: Settler (15 turns)
Tech learned: Mining
Research begun: Bronze Working (25 Turns)
Tribal village results: a little gold
Beshbalik founded
Beshbalik begins: Worker (23 turns)
Tech learned: Hunting (From Barbarians)
Tech learned: Fishing (From Barbarians)
Karakorum finishes: Settler
Karakorum begins: Chariot (7 turns)

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm5/Geezers_SG005_BC1900_01.Civ4SavedGame

Turn 55, 2350 BC: You have discovered Mining!

Turn 61, 2170 BC: The villagers give you gold! You have received 30 gold!
Turn 61, 2170 BC: Beshbalik has been founded.

Turn 62, 2140 BC: You have discovered Hunting!

Turn 64, 2080 BC: Asoka adopts Slavery!
Turn 64, 2080 BC: Saladin adopts Slavery!

Turn 65, 2050 BC: You have discovered Fishing!

Turn 67, 1990 BC: Qin Shi Huang adopts Slavery!

Turn 68, 1960 BC: Cyrus adopts Slavery!

Cool turnset, Harbourboy! Our little empire is on the roll. Two cities, a third on the way. Our first chariot soon to emerge, and we're 7 turns from finding out where the copper is.

(and didn't the Gt Prophet say that we were going to learn hunting and fishing from our friends very soon )

Also, I checked out the screenshot. Now that is a very CIV time to be finishing a turnset! 5:39am !! Excellent.



As I'm next up, I'll just say that I'm not going to be playing this evening, but probably tomorrow evening - so that's about 25 hours from now. That gives plenty of time for discussion.

Interesting to note that it looks like we could use galleys in both directions. :) Of course by the time various cities grow we would probably have Astro anyway. :crazyeye: It still looks like going east may be quicker than west.

I see our allies have been mapping out Sally's lands. :goodjob: I also notice that the barbs have founded a city on lush island.

I can't believe that Cyrus has had a golden age already but that's what the GNP graph seems to imply.

EDIT: Interesting, and depressing that half the AI have already got BW. :(

Roster

Sam
drhirsch
Harbourboy - just played
AgedOne- UP
markh- on deck
The-Hawk
Pariah (skipped until he reports being available)

Btw the way should we start playing ten turns yet?

Btw the way should we start playing ten turns yet?

I'm sure I can do as much damage to our game in 10 as I can in 20 ;) :D

Seriously, though, I noticed that last time out the team played in 20-turn sets until turn 140. If we all have a turn at 20, that should take us to roughly the same place before we start the 10-turn sets.

Now that is a very CIV time to be finishing a turnset! 5:39am !! Excellent.

I did say I was going to play in the morning! Plus it means if I do anything dumb, I can blame it on the fact that I was still asleep when I played.

20 turns is still right at this stage because, to be honest, nothing much really happens. I only made about 3 decisions in that whole turnset.

Looks good. :goodjob:

I would say it is up to you, AgedOne whether you play 10 or 20. You can also hand over at 12 or 16 or anything between 10 or 20 if you think it is appropriate. For example if we get a new tech in that range and we did not agree on what to research next. We can even out at a later stage then.

For the next set I think the most interesting part will be whether we have copper and use the settler to claim it.

On research we will have to find an agreement if we want a wonder or not. If not I would say we go pottery, writing. If we want a wonder we will have to agree on which one to choose the right techs.

(Sorry markh. I sat preparing this post for so long I didn't notice you'd made your post above. Some of my points may seem a bit contradictory as a result)


I'm wondering about the next turnset:

Settling

Where am I heading for with the settlers now leaving Karakorum? I'm assuming it's the Red Site by the clams and stone. That'll become Turfan (iirc).


Research

Bronze will be up in 7 turns (and then we'll know a thing or two...)
Pottery is on our list, and current estimate is 13 turns.
Mysticism is being researched by Barb-Aid, but hasn't got far yet. Cheap tech. We can get it in 6.
Masonry is also on Barb-Aid, and will take 14 turns. Or fewer, if the Barbs continue adding to the beakers while we research.


Builds

Karakorum is going to produce our first chariot in 6. It'll nip down to police Beshbalik, I guess. What next? Another settler is tempting. An off-beat idea is a workboat (7 turns) which allows K to grow to size 3 while it builds, and can go straight off to work the clams beside Turfan.

Beshbalik started a worker - due in 14. Next maybe an obelisk, if we have researched Myst by then, otherwise maybe a warrior for PM.

Turfan, when we found it, probably starts another worker.


I do feel that once Bronze Working comes up, I'll have a quiet stop and think, as maybe plans will change depending on the availability of copper nearby.

Feel free to knock these ideas about. I'm just plopping them down as a starting position for discussion. I'll be back online tomorrow.

Not sure we need to build any more warriors at this point, with better units on their way soon.

Looking good... my 2 cents:

- Although I suggested growing out the capital, folks have changed my mind. Barbs are building cities, we need to get a couple of more settlers out. I would switch chariot to settler so we have one ready for the long-awaited copper strike. The workboat idea is a good one, but I think we can't risk barb cities.

- I am not a fan of obelisks, I much prefer early libs because they work for us forever. However, a lib might take too long, and we need our second city to expand. So, I'm ok with building an obelisk.

- Having said that, I think we should let the barbs finish Myst for us. Having them tech is a big advantage on the AI's. Let's try to beeline up tech paths and let the barbs fill in gaps. If they are not making progress, maybe we need to research it ourselves, but I'd rather wait. I'm with Mark... pottery, writing.

- RE: Wonders. Again, I'm with Mark. I think the price is too high, especially given our hammer poor start. I'd rather spend our early hammers building things that can hammer :hammer:

- As a couple of others suggested, no need for MP's. If we have spare hammers to build units I would stick with chariots.

Yes, I think we should switch to another settler in Karakorum to claim a copper spot if there is one. Yellow looks suspicious as there is absolutely nothing beside the seafood.

If there is any copper, there are 3 likely spots: Our big fat cross, down in the very southeast or in the southwest.

The latter 2 spots might incur a significant maintenance cost, keep that in mind, so if we decide to go for saladin and/or alex we should settle there at the latest point possible before starting to build all out axes.
But maybe it shows up somewhere near. Or not at all. Well :-)

What about the Pyramids? With stone, I would always try to get them, even at higher difficulties. It allows out cities to hold 2 more pop and makes a specialist/cottage hybrid economy very powerful. The Great Engineer is very handy too, it usually allows either the Great Library, which does go very well with Pyramids because of the specialist bonus, or does give a boost in the long run as permanent resident.

I think it is possible to do both war with alex and building the pyramids, but it requires some planing. Any thoughts about that?

OK. The way it's looking to me now for this evening's turnset is this:


Settling
Use the current settler to found Turfan at the Red Site by the clams & stone.

Research
(after Bronze) Pottery and Writing.

Builds
Switch the Karakorum build to a settler. The chariot follows that (or does it?)

Beshbalik completes its worker, and then (if we have Myst by then) starts an obelisk.

Turfan, when founded, starts a worker (or should it be a workboat here? Lets it grow)


Plus, don't speak to any strangers, and pay very close attention in 7 turns time when BronzeWorking comes up.


I'll certainly aim to play the full 20 turns. I'll only change that plan if anything unexpectedly exciting occurs, and I need to ask for directions :)

Right. I've got the save. Ready to go. (Any last requests?)

Right. I've got the save. Ready to go. (Any last requests?)

No, your plan seems ok to me.

Ha HA! Hope it all goes like this.
Turn 71 (IBT) and we got this little news snippet:
157200

Go Barbarians !! :D



At turn 75 we learned Bronze Working (founding Turfan speeded research a little)
This is what was revealed:

157203

So the only copper on our island is on the grassland just south of Karakorum.



I didn't notice before, but our Barbie mates settled their first city really early - 1990BC !! It's on lush continent in the South West by a whole wodge of gold. It's a little way from Toku and Cyrus. Hope they survive.
I'm also scared now that they'll plop a city down on our copper at any moment.

Where should we plant our copper city? I'm going with the Green Site from Sam_Yeager's original dot-map unless anyone says otherwise.

I'd say go with green. Where is our scout ? Can you move it there to fogbust ? I do not remember whether this will prevent the barbs settling a city in a fogbusted area.

So, it is an exciting set with some tension.:)

Turnset completed.
My notes:

T70
Scout to hilltop as lookout.
Workers continue roading towards Beshbalik.
Settler heads for Red Site.

(IBT Ha! Guangzhou razed by Barbs!!)

T71
Settled Turfan.
Worried over first build. Worker in 45, Workboat in 45, but city can grow. Decided on workboat.
Losing 5gpt, so will have to reduce tech rate in 2 turns.

T72
Nothing.
Noticed Myst is half researched now.

T73
Reduced tech to 80% to break even.

T74
Workers continue roading across stone towards Besh.

T75
Learned Bronze Working; Started Pottery.
Didn't bother adopting Slavery immediately.
The nearest copper is (rather surprisingly) on the grasslands just S of Karakorum.

Didn't notice before, but the Barbs settled a city on lush land very early.
157213
1990BC !! I'm scared that they'll plop one down on our copper any time.

T76
Karakorum gets its next cultural expansion.

T77
Workers now roading final stretch into Besh. Next they'll work the gold.

T78
Nothing

T79
Nothing much, except Barbs missed their chance to damage Asoka. Axeman lost attacking newly founded Bombay.

T80
Stonehenge built in a far away land.

Our workers move to the gold, ready to start work.

T81
Workers start mining.

T82
Nothing.

T83
Nothing.
Note: Myst is 103/145 researched now.

T84
Beshbalik produces workers; They head towards the copper. Besh starts a chariot next.

T85
Noticed Barbies have a second city, but (phew) it's not on our land. It's in the east of lush continent, and (if it survives) would make a good stepping stone for an attack force.
Settler out of Karakorum. Heads for Green Site (just West of Copper)
Karakorum continues with chariot.
Workers arrive at jungle to link Karakorum to copper.

T86
Learned Pottery. Next will be Writing.
Settlers arrive in position.
Workers are roading through jungle to copper.

T87
Founded Ning-hsia beside the copper. Started an archer.
Goldmine is complete, and is now being roaded.
Losing money again 3gpt. Will need to reduce tech rate in 3 turns.

T88
Nothing - except we hit the top of the scoreboard.

T89
The copper is being mined.

T90
Workers have completed roading the goldmine, and head north to work near the capital (or the copper)

NB. Barbies actually have a 3rd city:
157211



The save is here: http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm5/Geezers_SG005_BC1300_01.Civ4SavedGame

From the Autolog:

Turn 70/660 (1900 BC) [01-Aug-2007 20:51:09]
Karakorum begins: Settler (15 turns)

IBT:
Attitude Change: Qin Shi Huang(China) towards Asoka(India), from 'Cautious' to 'Annoyed'
Attitude Change: Qin Shi Huang(China) towards Saladin(Arabia), from 'Pleased' to 'Cautious'
Attitude Change: Qin Shi Huang(China) towards Cyrus(Persia), from 'Cautious' to 'Annoyed'
Attitude Change: Asoka(India) towards Qin Shi Huang(China), from 'Cautious' to 'Annoyed'
Attitude Change: Asoka(India) towards Isabella(Spain), from 'Pleased' to 'Cautious'
Attitude Change: Isabella(Spain) towards Alexander(Greece), from 'Cautious' to 'Annoyed'
Attitude Change: Cyrus(Persia) towards Qin Shi Huang(China), from 'Cautious' to 'Annoyed'
Attitude Change: Cyrus(Persia) towards Isabella(Spain), from 'Pleased' to 'Cautious'

Turn 71/660 (1870 BC) [01-Aug-2007 21:00:33]
Turfan founded
Turfan begins: Worker (45 turns)
Turfan begins: Work Boat (45 turns)

IBT:
Civics Change: Alexander(Greece) from 'Tribalism' to 'Slavery'

Turn 72/660 (1840 BC) [01-Aug-2007 21:17:17]

IBT:

Turn 73/660 (1810 BC) [01-Aug-2007 21:20:04]

IBT:
Attitude Change: Isabella(Spain) towards Alexander(Greece), from 'Annoyed' to 'Cautious'

Turn 74/660 (1780 BC) [01-Aug-2007 21:22:04]
Tech learned: Bronze Working

IBT:

Turn 75/660 (1750 BC) [01-Aug-2007 21:24:30]
Research begun: Pottery (57 Turns)
Karakorum's borders expand

IBT:

Turn 76/660 (1720 BC) [01-Aug-2007 21:47:27]

IBT:

Turn 77/660 (1690 BC) [01-Aug-2007 21:57:20]

IBT:
Attitude Change: Isabella(Spain) towards Alexander(Greece), from 'Cautious' to 'Annoyed'

Turn 78/660 (1660 BC) [01-Aug-2007 21:59:16]

IBT:

Turn 79/660 (1630 BC) [01-Aug-2007 22:01:04]

IBT:

Turn 80/660 (1600 BC) [01-Aug-2007 22:03:19]

IBT:
Attitude Change: Isabella(Spain) towards Alexander(Greece), from 'Annoyed' to 'Cautious'

Turn 81/660 (1570 BC) [01-Aug-2007 22:05:23]

IBT:

Turn 82/660 (1540 BC) [01-Aug-2007 22:06:34]

IBT:

Turn 83/660 (1510 BC) [01-Aug-2007 22:07:36]
Beshbalik finishes: Worker

IBT:

Turn 84/660 (1480 BC) [01-Aug-2007 22:09:43]
Beshbalik begins: Chariot (19 turns)
Karakorum finishes: Settler

IBT:

Turn 85/660 (1450 BC) [01-Aug-2007 22:11:30]
Karakorum begins: Chariot (7 turns)
Tech learned: Pottery

IBT:

Turn 86/660 (1420 BC) [01-Aug-2007 22:16:34]
Research begun: Writing (18 Turns)

IBT:

Turn 87/660 (1390 BC) [01-Aug-2007 22:18:31]
Ning-hsia founded
Ning-hsia begins: Archer (19 turns)

IBT:
Civics Change: Tokugawa(Japan) from 'Tribalism' to 'Slavery'
Civics Change: Isabella(Spain) from 'Tribalism' to 'Slavery'

Turn 88/660 (1360 BC) [01-Aug-2007 22:23:24]

IBT:

Turn 89/660 (1330 BC) [01-Aug-2007 22:26:03]

IBT:

Turn 90/660 (1300 BC) [01-Aug-2007 22:31:34]


Summary

157212

All-in-all, we founded 2 cities, mined the gold and are mining the copper.
On the downside, I feel as though I've started too many military builds. Some could have been workers / settlers.
But we hit the top of the scores, thanks to combined scores with our barbaric friends.

Barbies actually have a 3rd city

OK, new strategy. Let's sit back and let the barbies do all the work. ;)

Actually, on a more serious note, if this wasn't a speed-based competition, it would be interesting to see if we could sit back and let the barbies win. I.e. if we sat on our initial island and focused on tech, could we put the barbs far enough ahead to reach Dom on their own? Prolly not, they are pretty stupid when it comes to attacking. Having said that, Qin has his hands full. He is going to lose a city very shortly.

I would like to see another settler or two, but I think your decision to build military is good. Two reasons:

1) Our economy is on the verge of a dead stop. We are already spending half our commerce on maintenance. Another city or two might close our tech down altogether.
2) I noticed Togu has a galley in his city. This says the AI's are starting to want to explore. It may not be too terribly long before we have some visitors. So, a couple of chariots to cover any incursions is good. Or, they become the start of the Alex-extermination-committee :D .

Given the first issue above, I would strongly recommend our worker in Turfan hop up to Karakorum and build a river cottage. Our pop is about to go to 3, might as well have the new citizen kickstart our economy by working a cottage.

Once the copper miner is done the mine, he should road the copper into our trade network. Then he too should get working on cottages.

Aged One, what did you push to get that Event Log window that is your screen shot? I have never seen that before.

Aged One, what did you push to get that Event Log window that is your screen shot? I have never seen that before.


Ah. That's one of the options on the HOF mod screens. Haven't got all the details in front of me right now, but basically you turn autologging on by checking one of the boxes, and then I said I wanted the output in forum format (rather than html).

Then it's a matter of finding the file after I played. (It's in something like My Games/Sid Meyer's Civilization 4\Autolog and was called Temujin.txt)
Paste the contents into your post, and there you go.

No, I meant your screenshot log.

Some thoughts:

We have to be careful of overexpanding.

What is the general plan? Attack asap? That would be after sailing comes in, founding another city would be good, but slow our sience to a crawl for some time.

The Great Prohpet is not amused to see no obelisks. There goes our Pyramids.

If we want a late (Astronomy) attack, we need to boost our sience. This means cottages, and expanding.

Is there something in between? Don't know, but it is of course possible to attack with Cats+Axes(or Maces) on galleys, but I have never tried it :-)

Productive turnset. :goodjob:

For the time being 4 cities should do fine. We should settle more cities after we have some cottages up and can pay for the maintenance.

As I am up I am planning to build some military now for MP and maybe get another worker out in my set. Barracks also come to my mind especially in Beshbalik. Research is set to writing as agreed, so nothing to do for me in the research department. After that I am thinking of fishing, sailing. I will adopt slavery enabling us to whip in future. Now it won't hurt us to switch.

I got it.

I am quite confident that we can hurt Alex without cats if we will be quick. The AIs are still in settling mode and they seem to struggle with our team mates. :D We should use this best as we can.

For the time being 4 cities should do fine. We should settle more cities after we have some cottages up and can pay for the maintenance.

I am quite confident that we can hurt Alex without cats if we will be quick. The AIs are still in settling mode and they seem to struggle with our team mates. :D We should use this best as we can.

Unless we settle another city in the far SE to get our culture over the ocean between our island and Alex's island then it doesn't matter what we do on the military front.

Whilst we can wait a while to found this city we have to factor in the time to build an obelisk and then wait for the cultural expansion. We also need to build some galleys to transport our troops. This requires Sailing which we also have to get, either through our allies or researched directly.

Ah, yes I keep forgetting that we get techs from the barbs and usually barb galleys appear sooner or later, so it seems a waste to research sailing ourselves.

However I think it is time to build some troops. I do not want to encourage Toku unloading an archer into our defenseless capitol. I will have a look at the save in the evening.

Unless we settle another city in the far SE to get our culture over the ocean between our island and Alex's island then it doesn't matter what we do on the military front.

Oops, forgot this small detail. We certainly need another settler asap.

Oops, forgot this small detail. We certainly need another settler asap.

Me too.

Your wish is my command. :salute:

Me too.

Hmmm... another case of Sam pulling our bacon out of the fire? ;)

No, I meant your screenshot log.

I'm confused - but then I've just come in from an evening drinking - do you mean the mini screenshots that you can click on ?
They are the normal screenshots I took while playing, but then I used the attachments tool of the advanced posting screen. Uploaded each of the ones I wanted, and then included each one at the appropriate place in the text - again using the attachments tool.

If I've guessed wrong again, then please forgive me - this is going to get very boring the more times I guess wrong.

AgedOne, I am talking about the screenshot of the event log that appears at the top of post #211. How did you get that?

In the event log window you have in the top left of your screen there is a small button. If you click this you get an advanced event log screen with these details IIRC.

BTW I am planning to play tonight, so any of you have another 10 hours time to post any wishes. After that I do not guarantee for anything.;)

BTW I am planning to play tonight, so any of you have another 10 hours time to post any wishes.

Not so much wishes as MM suggestions, in the main, most of which are probably obvious anyway. :) Given that our new city to span the ocean will cost us :gold: it is probably worth while changing Beshbalik to work the gold mine instead of the forest to build up our gold reserves. This gives us +1 :gold: at our current research rate. This will stop Beshbalik growing but I think it's worth while.

The worker in Turfan should obviously road towards the copper. Reducing the science rate to 50% gives us +5 :gold: with the MM of Besbalik. Reducing to 60% gives us +3 :gold: with the MM of Besbalik. Either way the time to research Writing is reduced.

Naturally new units will reduce these figures so I suggest that both Beshbalik and Ning-hsia are changed to build barracks/granaries instead of their current builds of archers/chariots. As both of these cities are likely to be our main production cities initially we'll certainly need barracks in any case. Granaries of course tend go well with :whipped:.

As far as research goes we need both Mysticism & Sailing. I'll be disappointed if Mysticism isn't learnt via our allies by the the time the settler finishes. However I note that Sailing has no beakers towards it yet so I think that we should research that after Writing. After all it will take a while to build the necessary galleys to pay a call on Alex.

In the event log window

Where's the event log window?

Where's the event log window?

In the top left corner of the screen, just below the science figure, is the button for the event log. If you click it then the event log will appear.

@Harbourboy & Sam_Yeager
You can tell we're a team. The way we implicitly understand what each other are talking about. It's almost like mind-reading at times. :crazyeye: :lol:

(I am laughing at myself, you realise. I was the one who couldn't guess what you were after, not once but twice !)

Some more details:
157350

move the mouse 1 cm left... stop... now 3 cm down... stop... klick...

I have never seen that button before!

Get a cool one from the fridge and on we go. :beer:

Change Karakorum to a settler

Adopt Slavery

1) 1270BC : move worker in position to help with our copper mine

IBT : the barbs move an axe to Nanjing which is defended by one archer

2) 1240BC : worker roads the copper, so the mine and road will be finished in 3

IBT : the barb loses at Nanjing, but two other barb axes now threaten Shanghai which is also defended by one archer

3) 1210BC : nothing to do

IBT : just one axe attacked Shanghai and died

4) 1180BC : still not much, but our copper mine is online

IBT : the second axe at Shanghai attacked and died also, stupid AI

5) 1150BC : workers start cottages for Ning Hsia and Karakorum

IBT : nothing

6) 1120BC : nothing

IBT : we learn myst from the barbs, they go for writing as well which will give us writing 1 turn earlier

7) 1090BC : change Beshbalik from chariot to Obelisk

IBT : nothing

8) 1060BC : not much to do

IBT : Ning Hsia finishes archer -> barracks

9) 1030BC : move the archer towards Beshbalik

IBT : nothing

10) 1000BC : not much

IBT : we are the least powerful nation

11) 985BC : workers are moving to new spots to build cottages

IBT : nothing

12) 970BC : worker starts cottage at Beshbalik

IBT : nothing

13) 955BC : archer reaches Beshbalik

IBT : writing comes in -> sailing, barbs go for masonry

14) 940BC : not much

IBT : Ning Hsia and Turfan grow

15) 925BC : Ning Hsia has grown and change the citizens to work the cottage
Turfan grew, too, but this can just work another sea tile

Turfan is also changed to an obelisk

IBT : Karakorum finishes the settler, continues on chariot

16) 910BC : start moving our settler SE

IBT : Alex asks for peace, but I decline

17) 895BC : just moving the settler, worker starts another cottage at Karakorum

IBT : Ning Hsia completes barracks -> axe

18) 880BC : rush an obelisk in Turfan

IBT : Karakorum completes chariot -> axe

19) 865BC : settler moves into position to found next turn
chariot from Karakorum moves towards Turfan

IBT : we get masonry from the barbs

Cyrus completes The Pyramids

20) 850BC : settler can found city in SE

War Weariness starts to kick in.

Cyrus, Tokugawa, Saladin, Izzy won't make peace
Qin, Asoka want Beshbalik for peace
Alex would make peace straight away

The settler just arrived in the SE and is ready to settler the town. I leave this to Hawk.

At Beshbalik I changed the tiles from turn to turn to keep our 70% research rate and have it grow.

Looks like a purposeful turnset markh! :)
(Hope the cool one lasted the full 20 turns.)

We might be the weakest, but we can now see the earliest beginnings of our menacing force. Alex will be sitting back complacently, I hope.

On the downside - you can never trust a Barb axeman to do the right thing can you? What's this 'one hit each turn' philosophy? Who trained these guys?

War Weariness starts to kick in.


Rats... I forgot that we were likely to suffer this because of our allies activities. :( Happiness resources will definitely be required.

(Hope the cool one lasted the full 20 turns.)

Nope. Forgot to log that I needed another one. :hammer2: I promise I will not forget these important things next time.

The bad thing about the barbs is that they train the city defenders, so it will get tougher for our forces attacking cities.:mischief:

OK, well done.

I am committed to a family event on Saturday, will play my turns on Sunday. This gives everyone a chance to chime in with suggestions. My thoughts (having not looked at the save):

City builds:

New city starts obelisk first.
Production cities get barracks, then start spamming military. I think mostly axes, just in case Alex has copper and is building Phalanx. We should have a couple of chariots ready to join the invasion to pillage metals.
Once we have sailing, we will need to run a couple of galleys into the mix. However, maybe not too many galleys if Alex has not settled the western part of his island... we can do some quick back and forth with just a couple of galleys.

Research:

My first inclination was to beeline to Construction. It won't be long and we'll be needing cats. However, if Confusionism is not yet discovered, we might want to beeline to CoL first. If we get Confus and change to it, we'll get some much needed smileys. Since everybody already hates us, who cares about religion minuses? Oh, and we might like some Courthouses to minimize the pain of distance maintenance.

Worker builds:

Cottages...

Under what circumstances would we agree to peace?

I am committed to a family event on Saturday, will play my turns on Sunday. This gives everyone a chance to chime in with suggestions.

I wouldn't worry about slackening off the pace a little.
Just took a look at the SGOTM Progress & Results page, and we're currently tearing away like jack-rabbits. The first ones past the 90turn mark, and the first past 110turns too. Only Fifth Element are anywhere near - at 100 turns - while most of the pack are back at around 70 turns.
(Mind you, judging from the Maintenance thread, several teams have had problems with the HOF mod / CIV patches and opening the save.)

One the other hand, being the furthest into the game means - we are the top scorers !! Let's celebrate! (It's 8 am here - I'll celebrate with a cuppa)

No quibbles about the city builds.


Research:

My first inclination was to beeline to Construction. It won't be long and we'll be needing cats. However, if Confusionism is not yet discovered, we might want to beeline to CoL first. If we get Confus and change to it, we'll get some much needed smileys. Since everybody already hates us, who cares about religion minuses? Oh, and we might like some Courthouses to minimize the pain of distance maintenance.


Now this is an interesting subject to discuss. :) Beeline to Construction has definite advantages for warring. However both Maths & Construction have long research times (30 & 49 turns respectively). :( Total research time is 79 turns.

CoL (49 turns) for courts & confucianism has Meditation (7 turns) & Priesthood (6 turns) as pre-requisites. Both of the pre-requisites are already part researched so total research time would be 62 turns. This is 17 turns less than the beeline to Construction. Meditation & Priesthood are also pre-requisites for Monarchy so the research into them helps two lines of research. Once Meditation & Priesthood is learnt we could reassess whether we want/need Monarchy earlier. Total research for Monarchy and pre-requisites is 55 turns.

Other alternatives are Metal Casting (53 turns), for forges and an additional happiness from :gold:, and Iron Working (23 turns) for swordsmen. Axes are good but swords have distinct advantages for city attacks.

Personally I think there is a fairly good case to go for Meditation & Priesthood initially. Our barb allies are likely to reduce the cost of research for us anyway. We can then decide if CoL for confucianism is still worth it or whether some other tech is a better choice. With luck the cost to research some of the other techs may well have reduced by then.

NB. Following AgedOne's research we need to remember that if we found Confucianism the holy city may well go to a barb city on lush island or somewhere else. :eek:

EDIT: We should road to our new city asap to reduce costs. The worker by Beshbalik can return to the cottage later.

19) 865BC : Cyrus completes The Pyramids


Phew. I doubt we would have finished in time, even if we would have settled beneath the stones.

Besides this, things start to get going :-)
Looks promising. Now lets build some galleys and LET ME RRRUUULE THE WORLD - ahem I mean lets take some preparations for a forward defense.

I think we need both Construction (Cats) and CoL (Courthouses). For founding Confucianism I don't care - we probably won't get it. But a barb holy city on Lushland may be not bad either. It's not only the barbs who suck a war, the "right" AIs aren't much better either.

I would research Construction first, to build some cats while researching to CoL, to build a courthouse in Alex' old capital (which we probably will want to keep).
And we need Fishing/Sailing before, and are we still in to time take our first victim without cats?

I think our pace is good. Still we have 24h for a "got it" and 48h to play. We should keep that to keep us engaged in the game. For me it is more fun to play a quick moving game. Furthermore with this starting position there is not much to do anyway. We do not have to fear any barbs and the AIs are still in settling mode. A big part of the map is still clear. However after The-Hawk finishes his turnset we will change to 10 turns / player.

Fishing we already have and sailing is about to be finished. After that we can concentrate on confucionism or construction. Iron Working would be high on my list, too as we have some jungle to clear. After growing Ning Hsia will have just one more forest to work IIRC. Turfan just has sea tiles.

I think our pace is good. Still we have 24h for a "got it" and 48h to play. We should keep that to keep us engaged in the game. For me it is more fun to play a quick moving game. Furthermore with this starting position there is not much to do anyway. We do not have to fear any barbs and the AIs are still in settling mode. A big part of the map is still clear. However after The-Hawk finishes his turnset we will change to 10 turns / player.

I agree, markh. I'm actually quite enjoying us being ahead of the bunch. It means we can find our line on the graph very easily, and then check back over the next few days to see how the other teams are comparing to us. We're sitting quite well at the moment. Nobody else is tearing off into a score lead - not that scores are what it's all about at this stage.

(The 'Power' graph is a little more intriguing at this stage. You can see how we are staying low, but beginning to increase dramatically, while others - like Gypsy Kings, Fifth Element and Misfits - seem to have gone for early power)

Fishing we already have and sailing is about to be finished. After that we can concentrate on confucionism or construction. Iron Working would be high on my list, too as we have some jungle to clear.


My vote would go for construction and iron. As we all know, cats rule, and they'll be just the thing for weedling a few entrenched phalanxes out of their foxholes!

Confucianism is interesting. I think there's a random chance as to which city in your (combined) empire gets the holy city status. Once we settle our SE city, we'll have 5 and the Barbs have (iirc) 3. So that's a 62.5% chance that we get it, 37.5% that they get it.

What benefit would it be if the barbs get a holy city? It won't spread to us. It might spread to the AI?? They will get cultural border expansions. I can't imagine they'll handle religion very well - using Gt Prophets etc. Sounds like it would be an interesting diversion, but not too useful to us. So I'd not expend too much energy getting Confucianism first.

I have never seen that button before!

It's an Easter Egg ;)

Looks like the front runners for research are Construction & CoL with Iron Working as third. AgedOne & drhirsh think we should head for Construction first. Mark said Col or Construction next but not necessarily in that order.

Personally I feel the 3 :mad: in Karakorum, which I feel will affect our other cities when they grow, needs to be addressed sooner rather than later. As such I would prefer Col or Monarchy first. The reason is that the unhappiness in our cities will affect both our production and :gold:. :whipped: is obviously one solution but I have my doubts as to how much that will help us in the short term with the existimg WW.

The lack of :gold: will affect research. Since both Maths & Construction need lots of research I feel we should be looking for techs with an early(ish) payback. Bear in mind that the WW so far is before we even generate our own before attacking Alex. Equally part of our problem is that our allies have been remiss in scouting Alex's land for us. Hence we do not know if cats are a 'nice to have' or 'essential'.

On the subject of WW should we be looking to make peace with anyone? I suspect the answer is no unless we can be sure it will reduce WW or allow some trading.

Personally I feel the 3 :mad: in Karakorum, which I feel will affect our other cities when they grow, needs to be addressed sooner rather than later .... On the subject of WW should we be looking to make peace with anyone? I suspect the answer is no unless we can be sure it will reduce WW or allow some trading.

I believe peace with any AI will reduce WW, but I don't know this to be a fact. I didn't realize WW was this bad. I think we are going to have to make peace with some AI's or we will stop growing. Not sure with who though. I'd like to keep lush island AI's at war, so I was going to suggest peace with isolated AI's. However, the way barbie is going, maybe she will overcome Qin and we'll end up with a fully settled island. Maybe we should make peace with the lush island AI's with religions, hoping they will war with each other once the barb threat has ended.

Having said all that, as there are few who would even make peace (without us giving up something), we might need to take what we can get.

I would research Construction first, to build some cats while researching to CoL, to build a courthouse in Alex' old capital (which we probably will want to keep).

Yes, I think you have it right on this one. I liked CoL for couthouses, I think they will be a necessity once we are off our start island. However, we are still many turns away from actually taking Alex's capital. Contruction first will allow us to get some cats going. I am nervous that we will not be on Alex fast enough to take his capital without cats.

By the way, one other random thought. I tend to keep most cities going for Dom so that the AI's don't resettle and to hurry my growth towards the land percentage. Of course, this makes money management a big issue due to maint. The nice thing about this scenario, we can raze all but the best cities and let the barbs fill in the open land. E.g. on Alex island... maybe we keep his capital and nothing else (unless he has a wonder or a kickass multi gold city). We move on, barbs fill in and we get closer to the dom limit without big maint.

By the way, one other random thought. I tend to keep most cities going for Dom so that the AI's don't resettle and to hurry my growth towards the land percentage. Of course, this makes money management a big issue due to maint. The nice thing about this scenario, we can raze all but the best cities and let the barbs fill in the open land. E.g. on Alex island... maybe we keep his capital and nothing else (unless he has a wonder or a kickass multi gold city). We move on, barbs fill in and we get closer to the dom limit without big maint.

Rubs hands in glee... It'll be interesting to see how may cities the barbs actually settle.... :hmm:

I believe peace with any AI will reduce WW, but I don't know this to be a fact. I didn't realize WW was this bad. I think we are going to have to make peace with some AI's or we will stop growing. Not sure with who though. I'd like to keep lush island AI's at war, so I was going to suggest peace with isolated AI's. However, the way barbie is going, maybe she will overcome Qin and we'll end up with a fully settled island. Maybe we should make peace with the lush island AI's with religions, hoping they will war with each other once the barb threat has ended.

Having said all that, as there are few who would even make peace (without us giving up something), we might need to take what we can get..


War Weariness starts to kick in.

Cyrus, Tokugawa, Saladin, Izzy won't make peace
Qin, Asoka want Beshbalik for peace
Alex would make peace straight away


I must admit I could see advantages to making peace with the lush island crowd. Our allies already have two cities in the west with one in the east. More cities for our allies would be good as would our allies not continuing to lose units against the AI and bumping up our WW.

IIRC Toku, Izzy & Asoka all have different religions so would hopefully keep going at each other. For me the question would be whether or not making peace helps their research. That said, it does look as though none of the lush island set are interested in peace atm.

Of the rest it sounds as though we should keep up the war against Qin. Since there's no point on letting Alex off the hook, that only leaves Sally. :confused:

there's no point on letting Alex off the hook,

Actually, now that I think about it, why not make peace with Alex? Sounds like he is willing, might get a war weariness reduction. We aren't ready to attack yet, let's make peace. We can always backstab him later. :evil:

PS... did I ever mention I hate Alex? :mischief: Backstabbing Alex = happy Hawk.