I think we need to go soon, before the 4th galley can make a difference. I am not saying wait for it, but if next wave fails, let's have plan B in the works already.

dV

The main problem is that we are running out of money. we have 24 gold and minus 4 at 100% income rate. So 6 turns left to react.

We have 3 spears and 1 axe onboard the galleys. The third galley will pick up another axe and another spear in two turns. After it it takes a couple of turns until the next units (a swordman in 8 turns) will arrive. Sal has 4 HA two archers and 1 axe in Mecca. So I think I will land those 6 units then bring the cats over to reduce the cities defence. An then I will wait for other units if it´s neccesary or attack if our odds are already good (which I don´t expect).

Furthermore I think we have to change the worked tiles iin Beshbalik and Karak to the cottages to hold income at 0. When we enter foreign territory we will have to pay even more. That´s why I will build cottages for Westbridge and Turfan too.

Do you agree on that or did I miss something important?

I disagree to my own proposal!!!

I think it is better to change the worked tile in Beshbalik to a cottage and another one in Turfan from the hill to a coast tile. It doesn´t influence the time the next Sword will come out in Turfan. It stays at 2 turns.

Played 9 turns to turn 230 and uploaded the save. Here is the turn log:


Here is your Session Turn Log from 800 AD to 935 AD:

Turn 220, 800 AD: Isabella has made peace with Tokugawa!

Turn 222, 830 AD: You have trained Christian Missionary in West Bridge Ham. Work has now begun on a Galley.
Turn 222, 830 AD: Tokugawa adopts Hereditary Rule!

Turn 223, 845 AD: Temujin's Axeman (6.00) vs Saladin's Archer (2.40)
Turn 223, 845 AD: Combat Odds: 99.8%
Turn 223, 845 AD: (Extra Combat: -20%)
Turn 223, 845 AD: (Combat: -25%)
Turn 223, 845 AD: Saladin's Archer is hit for 30 (70/100HP)
Turn 223, 845 AD: Saladin's Archer is hit for 30 (40/100HP)
Turn 223, 845 AD: Saladin's Archer is hit for 30 (10/100HP)
Turn 223, 845 AD: Temujin's Axeman is hit for 12 (88/100HP)
Turn 223, 845 AD: Saladin's Archer is hit for 30 (0/100HP)
Turn 223, 845 AD: Temujin's Axeman has defeated Saladin's Archer!
Turn 223, 845 AD: Cai Lun has been born in Nanjing!

Turn 225, 875 AD: Your Catapult has reduced the defenses of Mecca to 16%!
Turn 225, 875 AD: Saladin's Horse Archer (6.60) vs Temujin's Spearman (12.00)
Turn 225, 875 AD: Combat Odds: 1.3%
Turn 225, 875 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 225, 875 AD: (Extra Combat: +20%)
Turn 225, 875 AD: (Plot Defense: +50%)
Turn 225, 875 AD: (Fortify: +5%)
Turn 225, 875 AD: (Combat: +125%)
Turn 225, 875 AD: Saladin's Horse Archer is hit for 26 (74/100HP)
Turn 225, 875 AD: Saladin's Horse Archer is hit for 26 (48/100HP)
Turn 225, 875 AD: Saladin's Horse Archer is hit for 26 (22/100HP)
Turn 225, 875 AD: Saladin's Horse Archer is hit for 26 (0/100HP)
Turn 225, 875 AD: Temujin's Spearman has defeated Saladin's Horse Archer!
Turn 225, 875 AD: Saladin's Horse Archer (7.20) vs Temujin's Spearman (12.00)
Turn 225, 875 AD: Combat Odds: 3.8%
Turn 225, 875 AD: (Extra Combat: -20%)
Turn 225, 875 AD: (Extra Combat: +20%)
Turn 225, 875 AD: (Plot Defense: +50%)
Turn 225, 875 AD: (Fortify: +5%)
Turn 225, 875 AD: (Combat: +125%)
Turn 225, 875 AD: Saladin's Horse Archer is hit for 25 (75/100HP)
Turn 225, 875 AD: Saladin's Horse Archer is hit for 25 (50/100HP)
Turn 225, 875 AD: Saladin's Horse Archer is hit for 25 (25/100HP)
Turn 225, 875 AD: Saladin's Horse Archer is hit for 25 (0/100HP)
Turn 225, 875 AD: Temujin's Spearman has defeated Saladin's Horse Archer!
Turn 225, 875 AD: Saladin's Horse Archer (7.20) vs Temujin's Spearman (12.00)
Turn 225, 875 AD: Combat Odds: 3.8%
Turn 225, 875 AD: (Extra Combat: -20%)
Turn 225, 875 AD: (Extra Combat: +20%)
Turn 225, 875 AD: (Plot Defense: +50%)
Turn 225, 875 AD: (Fortify: +5%)
Turn 225, 875 AD: (Combat: +125%)
Turn 225, 875 AD: Saladin's Horse Archer is hit for 25 (75/100HP)
Turn 225, 875 AD: Temujin's Spearman is hit for 15 (85/100HP)
Turn 225, 875 AD: Saladin's Horse Archer is hit for 25 (50/100HP)
Turn 225, 875 AD: Temujin's Spearman is hit for 15 (70/100HP)
Turn 225, 875 AD: Saladin's Horse Archer is hit for 25 (25/100HP)
Turn 225, 875 AD: Saladin's Horse Archer is hit for 25 (0/100HP)
Turn 225, 875 AD: Temujin's Spearman has defeated Saladin's Horse Archer!
Turn 225, 875 AD: Saladin's Horse Archer (7.20) vs Temujin's Spearman (12.00)
Turn 225, 875 AD: Combat Odds: 3.8%
Turn 225, 875 AD: (Extra Combat: -20%)
Turn 225, 875 AD: (Extra Combat: +20%)
Turn 225, 875 AD: (Plot Defense: +50%)
Turn 225, 875 AD: (Fortify: +5%)
Turn 225, 875 AD: (Combat: +125%)
Turn 225, 875 AD: Saladin's Horse Archer is hit for 25 (75/100HP)
Turn 225, 875 AD: Saladin's Horse Archer is hit for 25 (50/100HP)
Turn 225, 875 AD: Saladin's Horse Archer is hit for 25 (25/100HP)
Turn 225, 875 AD: Temujin's Spearman is hit for 15 (85/100HP)
Turn 225, 875 AD: Saladin's Horse Archer is hit for 25 (0/100HP)
Turn 225, 875 AD: Temujin's Spearman has defeated Saladin's Horse Archer!
Turn 225, 875 AD: Saladin's Horse Archer (7.20) vs Temujin's Spearman (12.00)
Turn 225, 875 AD: Combat Odds: 3.8%
Turn 225, 875 AD: (Extra Combat: -20%)
Turn 225, 875 AD: (Extra Combat: +20%)
Turn 225, 875 AD: (Plot Defense: +50%)
Turn 225, 875 AD: (Fortify: +5%)
Turn 225, 875 AD: (Combat: +125%)
Turn 225, 875 AD: Temujin's Spearman is hit for 15 (85/100HP)
Turn 225, 875 AD: Saladin's Horse Archer is hit for 25 (75/100HP)
Turn 225, 875 AD: Temujin's Spearman is hit for 15 (70/100HP)
Turn 225, 875 AD: Saladin's Horse Archer is hit for 25 (50/100HP)
Turn 225, 875 AD: Saladin's Horse Archer is hit for 25 (25/100HP)
Turn 225, 875 AD: Saladin's Horse Archer is hit for 25 (0/100HP)
Turn 225, 875 AD: Temujin's Spearman has defeated Saladin's Horse Archer!

Turn 226, 890 AD: Christianity has spread in Beshbalik.
Turn 226, 890 AD: Homer has been born in Kyoto!
Turn 226, 890 AD: Saladin's Horse Archer (6.60) vs Temujin's Spearman (10.80)
Turn 226, 890 AD: Combat Odds: 4.1%
Turn 226, 890 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 226, 890 AD: (Extra Combat: +20%)
Turn 226, 890 AD: (Combat: +125%)
Turn 226, 890 AD: (River Attack: +25%)
Turn 226, 890 AD: Saladin's Horse Archer is hit for 25 (75/100HP)
Turn 226, 890 AD: Saladin's Horse Archer is hit for 25 (50/100HP)
Turn 226, 890 AD: Saladin's Horse Archer is hit for 25 (25/100HP)
Turn 226, 890 AD: Saladin's Horse Archer is hit for 25 (0/100HP)
Turn 226, 890 AD: Temujin's Spearman has defeated Saladin's Horse Archer!
Turn 226, 890 AD: Saladin's Horse Archer (6.60) vs Temujin's Spearman (10.80)
Turn 226, 890 AD: Combat Odds: 4.1%
Turn 226, 890 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 226, 890 AD: (Extra Combat: +20%)
Turn 226, 890 AD: (Combat: +125%)
Turn 226, 890 AD: (River Attack: +25%)
Turn 226, 890 AD: Saladin's Horse Archer is hit for 25 (75/100HP)
Turn 226, 890 AD: Temujin's Spearman is hit for 15 (85/100HP)
Turn 226, 890 AD: Saladin's Horse Archer is hit for 25 (50/100HP)
Turn 226, 890 AD: Saladin's Horse Archer is hit for 25 (25/100HP)
Turn 226, 890 AD: Saladin's Horse Archer is hit for 25 (0/100HP)
Turn 226, 890 AD: Temujin's Spearman has defeated Saladin's Horse Archer!

Turn 227, 905 AD: Plato has been born in a far away land!

Turn 228, 920 AD: Your Catapult has reduced the defenses of Mecca to 0%!
Turn 228, 920 AD: Ananda has been born in Madrid!
Turn 228, 920 AD: Cyrus adopts Hereditary Rule!
Turn 228, 920 AD: Alexander's Golden Age has begun!!!

Turn 229, 935 AD: Temujin's Catapult (5.00) vs Saladin's Archer (8.10)
Turn 229, 935 AD: Combat Odds: 2.8%
Turn 229, 935 AD: (Plot Defense: +25%)
Turn 229, 935 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 229, 935 AD: (City Defense: +70%)
Turn 229, 935 AD: (Hills: +25%)
Turn 229, 935 AD: (River Attack: +25%)
Turn 229, 935 AD: Your Catapult has caused collateral damage! (4 Units)
Turn 229, 935 AD: Temujin's Catapult is hit for 25 (75/100HP)
Turn 229, 935 AD: Temujin's Catapult is hit for 25 (50/100HP)
Turn 229, 935 AD: Saladin's Archer is hit for 15 (85/100HP)
Turn 229, 935 AD: Temujin's Catapult is hit for 25 (25/100HP)
Turn 229, 935 AD: Saladin's Archer is hit for 15 (70/100HP)
Turn 229, 935 AD: Saladin's Archer is hit for 15 (55/100HP)
Turn 229, 935 AD: Saladin's Archer is hit for 15 (40/100HP)
Turn 229, 935 AD: Your Catapult has withdrawn from combat with a Archer!
Turn 229, 935 AD: Temujin's Catapult (5.00) vs Saladin's Archer (5.22)
Turn 229, 935 AD: Combat Odds: 40.7%
Turn 229, 935 AD: (Plot Defense: +25%)
Turn 229, 935 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 229, 935 AD: (City Defense: +70%)
Turn 229, 935 AD: (Hills: +25%)
Turn 229, 935 AD: (City Attack: -45%)
Turn 229, 935 AD: Your Catapult has caused collateral damage! (3 Units)
Turn 229, 935 AD: Temujin's Catapult is hit for 21 (79/100HP)
Turn 229, 935 AD: Saladin's Archer is hit for 18 (69/100HP)
Turn 229, 935 AD: Temujin's Catapult is hit for 21 (58/100HP)
Turn 229, 935 AD: Saladin's Archer is hit for 18 (51/100HP)
Turn 229, 935 AD: Temujin's Catapult is hit for 21 (37/100HP)
Turn 229, 935 AD: Temujin's Catapult is hit for 21 (16/100HP)
Turn 229, 935 AD: Your Catapult has withdrawn from combat with a Archer!
Turn 229, 935 AD: Temujin's Catapult (5.00) vs Saladin's Archer (4.05)
Turn 229, 935 AD: Combat Odds: 79.7%
Turn 229, 935 AD: (Plot Defense: +25%)
Turn 229, 935 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 229, 935 AD: (City Defense: +50%)
Turn 229, 935 AD: (Hills: +25%)
Turn 229, 935 AD: (City Attack: -45%)
Turn 229, 935 AD: Your Catapult has caused collateral damage! (3 Units)
Turn 229, 935 AD: Temujin's Catapult is hit for 19 (81/100HP)
Turn 229, 935 AD: Saladin's Archer is hit for 20 (55/100HP)
Turn 229, 935 AD: Saladin's Archer is hit for 20 (35/100HP)
Turn 229, 935 AD: Saladin's Archer is hit for 20 (15/100HP)
Turn 229, 935 AD: Saladin's Archer is hit for 20 (0/100HP)
Turn 229, 935 AD: Temujin's Catapult has defeated Saladin's Archer!
Turn 229, 935 AD: Your Catapult has destroyed a Archer!
Turn 229, 935 AD: Temujin's Catapult (5.00) vs Saladin's Axeman (3.67)
Turn 229, 935 AD: Combat Odds: 87.3%
Turn 229, 935 AD: (Plot Defense: +25%)
Turn 229, 935 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 229, 935 AD: (City Attack: -45%)
Turn 229, 935 AD: Your Catapult has caused collateral damage! (1 Unit)
Turn 229, 935 AD: Saladin's Axeman is hit for 21 (49/100HP)
Turn 229, 935 AD: Saladin's Axeman is hit for 21 (28/100HP)
Turn 229, 935 AD: Saladin's Axeman is hit for 21 (7/100HP)
Turn 229, 935 AD: Temujin's Catapult is hit for 18 (82/100HP)
Turn 229, 935 AD: Saladin's Axeman is hit for 21 (0/100HP)
Turn 229, 935 AD: Temujin's Catapult has defeated Saladin's Axeman!
Turn 229, 935 AD: Your Catapult has destroyed a Axeman!
Turn 229, 935 AD: Temujin's Swordsman (6.60) vs Saladin's Archer (3.22)
Turn 229, 935 AD: Combat Odds: 97.4%
Turn 229, 935 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 229, 935 AD: (Plot Defense: +25%)
Turn 229, 935 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 229, 935 AD: (City Defense: +70%)
Turn 229, 935 AD: (Hills: +25%)
Turn 229, 935 AD: (City Attack: -30%)
Turn 229, 935 AD: Temujin's Swordsman is hit for 17 (83/100HP)
Turn 229, 935 AD: Saladin's Archer is hit for 23 (27/100HP)
Turn 229, 935 AD: Saladin's Archer is hit for 23 (4/100HP)
Turn 229, 935 AD: Saladin's Archer is hit for 23 (0/100HP)
Turn 229, 935 AD: Temujin's Swordsman has defeated Saladin's Archer!
Turn 229, 935 AD: Your Swordsman has destroyed a Archer!
Turn 229, 935 AD: Temujin's Swordsman (6.60) vs Saladin's Archer (2.28)
Turn 229, 935 AD: Combat Odds: 100.0%
Turn 229, 935 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 229, 935 AD: (Plot Defense: +25%)
Turn 229, 935 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 229, 935 AD: (City Defense: +70%)
Turn 229, 935 AD: (Hills: +25%)
Turn 229, 935 AD: (City Attack: -55%)
Turn 229, 935 AD: Saladin's Archer is hit for 25 (15/100HP)
Turn 229, 935 AD: Saladin's Archer is hit for 25 (0/100HP)
Turn 229, 935 AD: Temujin's Swordsman has defeated Saladin's Archer!
Turn 229, 935 AD: Your Swordsman has destroyed a Archer!
Turn 229, 935 AD: Temujin's Spearman (4.80) vs Saladin's Horse Archer (1.98)
Turn 229, 935 AD: Combat Odds: 99.9%
Turn 229, 935 AD: (Extra Combat: -20%)
Turn 229, 935 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 229, 935 AD: (Combat: -100%)
Turn 229, 935 AD: Saladin's Horse Archer is hit for 27 (36/100HP)
Turn 229, 935 AD: Saladin's Horse Archer is hit for 27 (9/100HP)
Turn 229, 935 AD: Saladin's Horse Archer is hit for 27 (0/100HP)
Turn 229, 935 AD: Temujin's Spearman has defeated Saladin's Horse Archer!
Turn 229, 935 AD: Your Spearman has destroyed a Horse Archer!
Turn 229, 935 AD: You have captured a Worker
Turn 229, 935 AD: You have captured Mecca!!!
Turn 229, 935 AD: Temujin's Axeman (6.50) vs Saladin's Archer (3.75)
Turn 229, 935 AD: Combat Odds: 95.5%
Turn 229, 935 AD: (Extra Combat: -30%)
Turn 229, 935 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 229, 935 AD: (Combat: -25%)
Turn 229, 935 AD: (River Attack: +25%)
Turn 229, 935 AD: Saladin's Archer is hit for 26 (74/100HP)
Turn 229, 935 AD: Saladin's Archer is hit for 26 (48/100HP)
Turn 229, 935 AD: Saladin's Archer is hit for 26 (22/100HP)
Turn 229, 935 AD: Saladin's Archer is hit for 26 (0/100HP)
Turn 229, 935 AD: Temujin's Axeman has defeated Saladin's Archer!
Turn 229, 935 AD: Your Axeman has destroyed a Archer!


When attacking Mecca we didn´t lose any unit. Cool thing! I attacked the same turn our treasury was at 0.

Now we have to discuss if want to make peace with Sal as he is offers us Alphabet and Calender for doing so. Qin still isn´t willing to make peace ut everybody else wants to in exchange for Theology.

I think we should conquer (or destroy) the next city to the south west of Mecca ( don´t remember the name now) so that Mecca has a bit more space AND Sal doesn´t get horses anymore. We could still destroy those horses by the next turn.

As we have 145 bucks now we could let Beshbalik grow to size three as I put the missionary in it. We are at minus 9 now and Beshbalik is working the rice and one cottage and would grow in 9 turns.

Furthermore I made the mistake to set production in Karak to temple. Sorry! :blush: I don´t think it is neccesary as we could make peace in a few turns to reduce war weariness.

Okay so far. Next one please... :)

I would personally peace now for alpha and calendar(both very important for us right now!) and then move on Alexander, but then, I'm not as experienced at war as Lm and Hw are, so I'll bow to their judgements on this.

I don't know where my vanilla disc is right now :hm: I think my wife must have misplaced it...so it'll be a bit until I can look at the save for any other comments/discussion

Sorry for long delay been quite busy.

personally I would take or destroy SW city as culture will be a pain to overcome.
destroy people wont like us and taking it more maintenance if I had to choose i woudl go destroy. or maybe if someone is quite close to use liek greece if we take it we could gift it them for peace but a risky strategy.

Nice going Lehm! What was your thinking on the Temple? I thought you were from the nothing but troops school of thought.

The roster order is

Lehm - just played
Conquistador 63 - Up Now
hellwitch - on deck
da_Vinci - in the hole
Thrallia - waiting
g_storrow - waiting
Scout 214 - waiting
Ronnie1 - waiting

I think we raze the horse pasture before we get peace with Sal so he can't build any more HA's right away. Then take the peace deal for 10 turns and then raze all of his southern cities for the gold. Leaving the land for the barbs to spawn a city or 2.

Those are my initial thoughts, and MM tile use to get us into a better gold position. I still think we need to approach this from a better tile use standpoint.

I'm away from my game PC until at least next Sunday. Can I be skipped/flipped?

The roster order is

Lehm - just played
Conquistador 63 - Flipped order by request
hellwitch - on holiday this week (May be on deck if returns in time)
da_Vinci - UP NOW
Thrallia - waiting
g_storrow - waiting
Scout 214 - waiting
Ronnie1 - waiting

The roster order is

Lehm - just played
Conquistador 63 - Flipped order by request
hellwitch - on holiday this week (May be on deck if returns in time)
da_Vinci - UP NOW
Thrallia - waiting
g_storrow - waiting
Scout 214 - waiting
Ronnie1 - waiting OK, this is an I see it post, later today will be the I got it post ... more thoughts then.

I think that perhaps we want to make peace with as many AI as will do it for theo ... let them start getting unhappy with each other some, get rid of mutual military struggle, etc. And it lets the barbs grow. I don't see how wars where we don't have troops helps us now.

dV

Yeah, I also think we should make peace with everybody possible. Theology isn´t a military tech. Okay one might say the AI could get those +2 experience but in exchange we can let our citites grow, become stronger and kill'em all anyway.

Furthermore I made the mistake to set production in Karak to temple. Sorry! :blush: I don´t think it is neccesary as we could make peace in a few turns to reduce war weariness.

Okay so far. Next one please... :) Maybe temple is not so bad in Karak ... allows us to run priests ... do we want to have a GP farm? Maybe Karak is it?

dV

OK got the save.

Rather than pillage the horse, why not go raze Medina, then we own the horse in Mecca? Make peace after Medina falls?

Do we want to slow down unit production until we get gold back on track? Or push ahead with troops?

Polynesian has fallen ... only one barb city left AFAICS.

After peace with Sal, do we want to go hit Alex right away? A later built force can finish off Sal ... better for the competition to get to main cont sooner?

With gold from second raze, work tiles for pop growth ASAP (after peace with all AI for theol).

I can play tomorrow if we get agreement on plan.

dV

DV i agree with the razing second city.

lets grow is my advice ( that means little or no whipping! :) ), also at the moment we only have -1 from WW IIRC.

I personally think the pyramids shoudl be next target. But lets get cities as big as they can be.

I'm back. I didnt see the save but its good to hear for progress against Sal :) .
GL are builded in a far away right? If thats true = Mids+GL in one shot ;).
And g_s is right this is the time when we must let our cities grow.

OK, here is my plan ...

Make peace with as many AI as possible for theology all at once.

Move on Medina, raze it if that looks doable and make peace with Sal for two techs... if not, pillage the horse and make peace with Sal for two techs.

We don't want to keep Medina, right? Too much maint if we do, I fear.

Then I am thinking pack up the troops and head for Greece. Let newly produced troops go finish off Sal later. We get Mids (and GL if hw keeps his clarvoyant string intact) sooner if we go right for Alex, and get to mainland sooner too. Which we need to compete with the other teams, I think.

Max food in our cities for growth, except maybe get that last galley done fast.

I don't think I will play tonight, as not enough feed back yet ... so I plan to play tomorrow night ... unless hw is ready by then and wants to go?

I am good going before or after hw, but one of us ought to go tomorrow night

24 hours to put your 2 cents in everyone ...

Lehm, do we know what troops are in Medina, or have we never seen into that city?

dV

We don´t know anything about Medina but Mecca wasn´t defended well so I don´t expect more of Medina. And I agree to all your points as they are almost equal to what I said. Go ahead and good luck...

I do want to get more input on the raze Medina vs peace now issue ... will Sal not make peace after we raze one of his? If that is not an issue, then I think the raze is the way to go.

Also want more feedback on whether we keep troops around to finish of Sal, or go right to Greece.

I will plan to play tomorrow night unless I hear that hw wants to play tomorrow night.

Or unless some huge unresolved issue emerges ...

dV

I don´t think that the raze of a city influences the attitude of peace or not peace. Sal will be weaker and might give us even more techs or gold if available. If he doesn´t offer anything you have to move as many troops into his territory as possible. The AI calculates a higher danger and is willing to offer more for peace. Raze Medina and make peace...

After it go for the Mids (Alex) as quick as you can. Don´t stop building troops. You have to keep an eye on Beshbalik as it is growing now but with the loss of gold. Let all cities grow as long as we can afford it. But we can because we will get more money from the next cities we destroy...

I favor raze Medina before peace.

I can go one of two ways after that.
1. Raze the rest of Sals cities for the gold now, (after 10 turns of peace of course).
2. Go directly for Alex and Mids.

I agree with peace with as much of the mainland as possible.

I think we keep producing troops as fast as possible, (no whipping)!

I think we need to grow fast, but I think we need to work the gold mine in Besh also. It is too valuable to not work.

Attack stack for Alex needs to be bigger than we sent to Sal IMO.

Well ... maybe there is enough consensus to play on tonight ... then hw can be up to go from there.

R1 says raze Medina, g_s says raze Medina, I like the idea, C63 and Thrallia are in gamless limbo now, hw did not object to the idea ... so I think i am good to go tonight after all (I had forgotten about C63 and Thrallia issues).

So I am playing now.

dV

yes, I'm in limbo still, my wife doesn't remember what she did with the disc(guess that's one of the side effects of attempting to bring her from just casual flash/java games to actual gaming) so hopefully I'll find it by the time it is my turn to play.

As for the plans...I agree with raze Medina first, peace everyone we can, and then head straight for Alex and the Mids. With the mids, we'll be able to redeclare war on people without having any sudden unhappiness problems(not to mention getting +25% military production!:goodjob:)

I disagree that we'll need more troops, unless Alex has had a growth spurt, because last I checked, he was in last place among the AI in pretty much every area.

Played 11 turns to turn 240. Razed Medina, decided that it made sense to go at Damascus too so have just catted it to 4% defense. I think we could raze it, then split the stack to take both remaining cities on that island at the same time. That leaves him one in the NE on the small island.

Made peace with all but Qin and Sal for theo. I maxed food to grow cities. Sal was trying to counterattack mecca so I whiped an archer there just for insurance. When that grows a pop back in 1 turn, we will have + cash flow at 0 sci.

The barbs researched cal turn 231, making peace with sal less urgent. Now he will make peace and give us alpha, monarchy, and HBR. Will he still make that deal after we take out all the cities on this big island? or should we take it after we whack Damascus? Or at least take out his last metal?

I now think we should finish him off on the big island while we are there, then consolidate and go for Alex. Unless that ruins the trade deal.

Plantationed the bananas for food, not sure what to do with dye as we have cottaged two of them ... Could pasture the pigs and run scientists in Karak.

Making a missionary in WestBridge for Mecca ... which will be a powerhouse once it has FC. Had to whip off two unhappy, then the archer there.

One goof, left a cat loose and he got at it with an HA. lost one other cat first attack on Medina. No other losses.

I think the economy is stabilizing, and we can resume cat production, we will have 4 galleys (later a 5th) to move the troops east.

autolog: Turn 230/660 (950 AD) [06-Sep-2007 21:17:42]
Swordsman promoted: City Raider II
Spearman promoted: Formation
Catapult promoted: Barrage II
Tech learned: Calendar

Turn 231/660 (965 AD) [06-Sep-2007 21:26:36]
Turfan Hammers finishes: Catapult
Attitude Change: Asoka(India) towards Saladin(Arabia), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'

Turn 232/660 (980 AD) [06-Sep-2007 21:35:04]
Turfan Hammers begins: Galley (10 turns)
Attitude Change: Cyrus(Persia) towards Isabella(Spain), from 'Pleased' to 'Friendly'

Turn 233/660 (995 AD) [06-Sep-2007 21:41:54]
While attacking in Mongolian territory at Mecca, Spearman defeats (1.60/4): Arabian Horse Archer (Prob Victory: 96.6%)
Karakorum grows: 4
While defending in Arabian territory near Mecca, Catapult loses to: Arabian Horse Archer (3.48/6) (Prob Victory: 0.9%)
Attitude Change: Asoka(India) towards Saladin(Arabia), from 'Pleased' to 'Cautious'

Turn 234/660 (1010 AD) [06-Sep-2007 21:47:34]
While attacking in Arabian territory at Mecca, Spearman defeats (4.00/4): Arabian Horse Archer (Prob Victory: 100.0%)
Mecca begins: Barracks (45 turns)
Mecca finishes: Barracks

Turn 235/660 (1025 AD) [06-Sep-2007 21:50:30]
West Bridge Ham begins: Christian Missionary (60 turns)

Turn 236/660 (1040 AD) [06-Sep-2007 21:54:12]
While attacking in Arabian territory at Medina, Catapult loses to: Arabian Axeman (3.20/5) (Prob Victory: 29.7%)
While attacking in Arabian territory at Medina, Catapult defeats (1.80/5): Arabian Archer (Prob Victory: 94.8%)
While attacking in Arabian territory at Medina, Catapult defeats (3.40/5): Arabian Axeman (Prob Victory: 99.3%)
Captured Medina (Saladin)
Razed Medina
Medina lost
Mecca begins: Archer (13 turns)
West Bridge Ham grows: 3
Attitude Change: Asoka(India) towards Saladin(Arabia), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'

Turn 237/660 (1055 AD) [06-Sep-2007 22:04:53]
Catapult promoted: City Raider III
Catapult promoted: Barrage I
Catapult promoted: Barrage II
Karakorum finishes: Christian Temple
Beshbalik grows: 3
Attitude Change: Alexander(Greece) towards Qin Shi Huang(China), from 'Pleased' to 'Cautious'

Turn 238/660 (1070 AD) [06-Sep-2007 22:13:35]
Karakorum begins: Catapult (12 turns)
Turfan Hammers grows: 4

Turn 239/660 (1085 AD) [06-Sep-2007 22:25:54]
Spearman promoted: Medic I
Christianity has spread: East Bridge
Mecca finishes: Archer

Turn 240/660 (1100 AD) [06-Sep-2007 22:32:10]
Archer promoted: City Garrison I
While attacking in Mongolian territory at Mecca, Spearman defeats (2.08/4): Arabian Archer (Prob Victory: 86.3%)


upload log Here is your Session Turn Log from 935 AD to 1100 AD:

Turn 229, 935 AD: Temujin's Catapult (5.00) vs Saladin's Archer (8.10)
Turn 229, 935 AD: Combat Odds: 2.8%
Turn 229, 935 AD: (Plot Defense: +25%)
Turn 229, 935 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 229, 935 AD: (City Defense: +70%)
Turn 229, 935 AD: (Hills: +25%)
Turn 229, 935 AD: (River Attack: +25%)
Turn 229, 935 AD: Temujin's Catapult is hit for 25 (75/100HP)
Turn 229, 935 AD: Temujin's Catapult is hit for 25 (50/100HP)
Turn 229, 935 AD: Saladin's Archer is hit for 15 (85/100HP)
Turn 229, 935 AD: Temujin's Catapult is hit for 25 (25/100HP)
Turn 229, 935 AD: Saladin's Archer is hit for 15 (70/100HP)
Turn 229, 935 AD: Saladin's Archer is hit for 15 (55/100HP)
Turn 229, 935 AD: Saladin's Archer is hit for 15 (40/100HP)
Turn 229, 935 AD: Temujin's Catapult (5.00) vs Saladin's Archer (5.22)
Turn 229, 935 AD: Combat Odds: 40.7%
Turn 229, 935 AD: (Plot Defense: +25%)
Turn 229, 935 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 229, 935 AD: (City Defense: +70%)
Turn 229, 935 AD: (Hills: +25%)
Turn 229, 935 AD: (City Attack: -45%)
Turn 229, 935 AD: Temujin's Catapult is hit for 21 (79/100HP)
Turn 229, 935 AD: Saladin's Archer is hit for 18 (69/100HP)
Turn 229, 935 AD: Temujin's Catapult is hit for 21 (58/100HP)
Turn 229, 935 AD: Saladin's Archer is hit for 18 (51/100HP)
Turn 229, 935 AD: Temujin's Catapult is hit for 21 (37/100HP)
Turn 229, 935 AD: Temujin's Catapult is hit for 21 (16/100HP)
Turn 229, 935 AD: Temujin's Catapult (5.00) vs Saladin's Archer (4.05)
Turn 229, 935 AD: Combat Odds: 79.7%
Turn 229, 935 AD: (Plot Defense: +25%)
Turn 229, 935 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 229, 935 AD: (City Defense: +50%)
Turn 229, 935 AD: (Hills: +25%)
Turn 229, 935 AD: (City Attack: -45%)
Turn 229, 935 AD: Temujin's Catapult is hit for 19 (81/100HP)
Turn 229, 935 AD: Saladin's Archer is hit for 20 (55/100HP)
Turn 229, 935 AD: Saladin's Archer is hit for 20 (35/100HP)
Turn 229, 935 AD: Saladin's Archer is hit for 20 (15/100HP)
Turn 229, 935 AD: Saladin's Archer is hit for 20 (0/100HP)
Turn 229, 935 AD: Temujin's Catapult has defeated Saladin's Archer!
Turn 229, 935 AD: Temujin's Catapult (5.00) vs Saladin's Axeman (3.67)
Turn 229, 935 AD: Combat Odds: 87.3%
Turn 229, 935 AD: (Plot Defense: +25%)
Turn 229, 935 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 229, 935 AD: (City Attack: -45%)
Turn 229, 935 AD: Saladin's Axeman is hit for 21 (49/100HP)
Turn 229, 935 AD: Saladin's Axeman is hit for 21 (28/100HP)
Turn 229, 935 AD: Saladin's Axeman is hit for 21 (7/100HP)
Turn 229, 935 AD: Temujin's Catapult is hit for 18 (82/100HP)
Turn 229, 935 AD: Saladin's Axeman is hit for 21 (0/100HP)
Turn 229, 935 AD: Temujin's Catapult has defeated Saladin's Axeman!
Turn 229, 935 AD: Temujin's Swordsman (6.60) vs Saladin's Archer (3.22)
Turn 229, 935 AD: Combat Odds: 97.4%
Turn 229, 935 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 229, 935 AD: (Plot Defense: +25%)
Turn 229, 935 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 229, 935 AD: (City Defense: +70%)
Turn 229, 935 AD: (Hills: +25%)
Turn 229, 935 AD: (City Attack: -30%)
Turn 229, 935 AD: Temujin's Swordsman is hit for 17 (83/100HP)
Turn 229, 935 AD: Saladin's Archer is hit for 23 (27/100HP)
Turn 229, 935 AD: Saladin's Archer is hit for 23 (4/100HP)
Turn 229, 935 AD: Saladin's Archer is hit for 23 (0/100HP)
Turn 229, 935 AD: Temujin's Swordsman has defeated Saladin's Archer!
Turn 229, 935 AD: Temujin's Swordsman (6.60) vs Saladin's Archer (2.28)
Turn 229, 935 AD: Combat Odds: 100.0%
Turn 229, 935 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 229, 935 AD: (Plot Defense: +25%)
Turn 229, 935 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 229, 935 AD: (City Defense: +70%)
Turn 229, 935 AD: (Hills: +25%)
Turn 229, 935 AD: (City Attack: -55%)
Turn 229, 935 AD: Saladin's Archer is hit for 25 (15/100HP)
Turn 229, 935 AD: Saladin's Archer is hit for 25 (0/100HP)
Turn 229, 935 AD: Temujin's Swordsman has defeated Saladin's Archer!
Turn 229, 935 AD: Temujin's Spearman (4.80) vs Saladin's Horse Archer (1.98)
Turn 229, 935 AD: Combat Odds: 99.9%
Turn 229, 935 AD: (Extra Combat: -20%)
Turn 229, 935 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 229, 935 AD: (Combat: -100%)
Turn 229, 935 AD: Saladin's Horse Archer is hit for 27 (36/100HP)
Turn 229, 935 AD: Saladin's Horse Archer is hit for 27 (9/100HP)
Turn 229, 935 AD: Saladin's Horse Archer is hit for 27 (0/100HP)
Turn 229, 935 AD: Temujin's Spearman has defeated Saladin's Horse Archer!
Turn 229, 935 AD: You have captured Mecca!!!
Turn 229, 935 AD: Temujin's Axeman (6.50) vs Saladin's Archer (3.75)
Turn 229, 935 AD: Combat Odds: 95.5%
Turn 229, 935 AD: (Extra Combat: -30%)
Turn 229, 935 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 229, 935 AD: (Combat: -25%)
Turn 229, 935 AD: (River Attack: +25%)
Turn 229, 935 AD: Saladin's Archer is hit for 26 (74/100HP)
Turn 229, 935 AD: Saladin's Archer is hit for 26 (48/100HP)
Turn 229, 935 AD: Saladin's Archer is hit for 26 (22/100HP)
Turn 229, 935 AD: Saladin's Archer is hit for 26 (0/100HP)
Turn 229, 935 AD: Temujin's Axeman has defeated Saladin's Archer!
Turn 229, 935 AD: You have made peace with Tokugawa!
Turn 229, 935 AD: You have made peace with Cyrus!
Turn 229, 935 AD: You have made peace with Isabella!
Turn 229, 935 AD: You have made peace with Asoka!

Turn 230, 950 AD: You have discovered Calendar!

Turn 232, 980 AD: Qin Shi Huang has completed The Colossus!

Turn 233, 995 AD: Temujin's Spearman (4.80) vs Saladin's Horse Archer (2.79)
Turn 233, 995 AD: Combat Odds: 96.6%
Turn 233, 995 AD: (Extra Combat: -20%)
Turn 233, 995 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 233, 995 AD: (Combat: -125%)
Turn 233, 995 AD: Saladin's Horse Archer is hit for 26 (74/100HP)
Turn 233, 995 AD: Temujin's Spearman is hit for 15 (85/100HP)
Turn 233, 995 AD: Temujin's Spearman is hit for 15 (70/100HP)
Turn 233, 995 AD: Saladin's Horse Archer is hit for 26 (48/100HP)
Turn 233, 995 AD: Saladin's Horse Archer is hit for 26 (22/100HP)
Turn 233, 995 AD: Temujin's Spearman is hit for 15 (55/100HP)
Turn 233, 995 AD: Temujin's Spearman is hit for 15 (40/100HP)
Turn 233, 995 AD: Saladin's Horse Archer is hit for 26 (0/100HP)
Turn 233, 995 AD: Temujin's Spearman has defeated Saladin's Horse Archer!
Turn 233, 995 AD: Saladin's Horse Archer (6.60) vs Temujin's Catapult (3.33)
Turn 233, 995 AD: Combat Odds: 99.1%
Turn 233, 995 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 233, 995 AD: (Class Attack: -50%)
Turn 233, 995 AD: Saladin's Horse Archer is hit for 14 (86/100HP)
Turn 233, 995 AD: Temujin's Catapult is hit for 27 (73/100HP)
Turn 233, 995 AD: Temujin's Catapult is hit for 27 (46/100HP)
Turn 233, 995 AD: Temujin's Catapult is hit for 27 (19/100HP)
Turn 233, 995 AD: Saladin's Horse Archer is hit for 14 (72/100HP)
Turn 233, 995 AD: Saladin's Horse Archer is hit for 14 (58/100HP)
Turn 233, 995 AD: Temujin's Catapult is hit for 27 (0/100HP)
Turn 233, 995 AD: Saladin's Horse Archer has defeated Temujin's Catapult!

Turn 234, 1010 AD: Temujin's Spearman (4.80) vs Saladin's Horse Archer (1.61)
Turn 234, 1010 AD: Combat Odds: 100.0%
Turn 234, 1010 AD: (Extra Combat: -20%)
Turn 234, 1010 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 234, 1010 AD: (Combat: -125%)
Turn 234, 1010 AD: Saladin's Horse Archer is hit for 29 (29/100HP)
Turn 234, 1010 AD: Saladin's Horse Archer is hit for 29 (0/100HP)
Turn 234, 1010 AD: Temujin's Spearman has defeated Saladin's Horse Archer!
Turn 234, 1010 AD: You have constructed a Barracks in Mecca. Work has now begun on a Library.

Turn 236, 1040 AD: Temujin's Catapult (5.00) vs Saladin's Axeman (5.75)
Turn 236, 1040 AD: Combat Odds: 29.7%
Turn 236, 1040 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 236, 1040 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 236, 1040 AD: (City Attack: -20%)
Turn 236, 1040 AD: Temujin's Catapult is hit for 21 (79/100HP)
Turn 236, 1040 AD: Temujin's Catapult is hit for 21 (58/100HP)
Turn 236, 1040 AD: Saladin's Axeman is hit for 18 (82/100HP)
Turn 236, 1040 AD: Temujin's Catapult is hit for 21 (37/100HP)
Turn 236, 1040 AD: Temujin's Catapult is hit for 21 (16/100HP)
Turn 236, 1040 AD: Saladin's Axeman is hit for 18 (64/100HP)
Turn 236, 1040 AD: Temujin's Catapult is hit for 21 (0/100HP)
Turn 236, 1040 AD: Saladin's Axeman has defeated Temujin's Catapult!
Turn 236, 1040 AD: Temujin's Catapult (5.00) vs Saladin's Archer (3.00)
Turn 236, 1040 AD: Combat Odds: 94.8%
Turn 236, 1040 AD: (Fortify: +10%)
Turn 236, 1040 AD: (City Defense: +50%)
Turn 236, 1040 AD: (City Attack: -45%)
Turn 236, 1040 AD: Saladin's Archer is hit for 24 (63/100HP)
Turn 236, 1040 AD: Temujin's Catapult is hit for 16 (84/100HP)
Turn 236, 1040 AD: Saladin's Archer is hit for 24 (39/100HP)
Turn 236, 1040 AD: Temujin's Catapult is hit for 16 (68/100HP)
Turn 236, 1040 AD: Saladin's Archer is hit for 24 (15/100HP)
Turn 236, 1040 AD: Temujin's Catapult is hit for 16 (52/100HP)
Turn 236, 1040 AD: Temujin's Catapult is hit for 16 (36/100HP)
Turn 236, 1040 AD: Saladin's Archer is hit for 24 (0/100HP)
Turn 236, 1040 AD: Temujin's Catapult has defeated Saladin's Archer!
Turn 236, 1040 AD: Temujin's Catapult (5.00) vs Saladin's Axeman (2.45)
Turn 236, 1040 AD: Combat Odds: 99.3%
Turn 236, 1040 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 236, 1040 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 236, 1040 AD: (City Attack: -45%)
Turn 236, 1040 AD: Temujin's Catapult is hit for 16 (84/100HP)
Turn 236, 1040 AD: Saladin's Axeman is hit for 23 (31/100HP)
Turn 236, 1040 AD: Saladin's Axeman is hit for 23 (8/100HP)
Turn 236, 1040 AD: Temujin's Catapult is hit for 16 (68/100HP)
Turn 236, 1040 AD: Saladin's Axeman is hit for 23 (0/100HP)
Turn 236, 1040 AD: Temujin's Catapult has defeated Saladin's Axeman!
Turn 236, 1040 AD: You have captured Medina!!!
Turn 236, 1040 AD: You have destroyed the city of Medina!!!

Turn 237, 1055 AD: <COLOR=252,147,40,255Beshbalik has grown to size 3
Turn 237, 1055 AD: Alexander's Golden Age has ended...

Turn 238, 1070 AD: <COLOR=252,147,40,255Turfan Hammers has grown to size 4

Turn 239, 1085 AD: Your Catapult has reduced the defenses of Damascus to 34%!
Turn 239, 1085 AD: Your Catapult has reduced the defenses of Damascus to 28%!
Turn 239, 1085 AD: Deal Canceled: Peace Treaty (10 Turns) to Tokugawa for Peace Treaty (10 Turns)
Turn 239, 1085 AD: Deal Canceled: Peace Treaty (10 Turns) to Cyrus for Peace Treaty (10 Turns)
Turn 239, 1085 AD: Deal Canceled: Peace Treaty (10 Turns) to Isabella for Peace Treaty (10 Turns)
Turn 239, 1085 AD: Deal Canceled: Peace Treaty (10 Turns) to Asoka for Peace Treaty (10 Turns)
Turn 239, 1085 AD: <COLOR=102,229,255,255Christianity has spread in East Bridge.
Turn 239, 1085 AD: You have trained a Archer in Mecca. Work has now begun on a Library.
Turn 239, 1085 AD: <COLOR=252,147,40,255Mecca will grow to size 2 on the next turn

Turn 240, 1100 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Mecca!
Turn 240, 1100 AD: Temujin's Spearman (4.80) vs Saladin's Archer (3.30)
Turn 240, 1100 AD: Combat Odds: 86.3%
Turn 240, 1100 AD: (Extra Combat: -20%)
Turn 240, 1100 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 240, 1100 AD: Saladin's Archer is hit for 24 (76/100HP)
Turn 240, 1100 AD: Saladin's Archer is hit for 24 (52/100HP)
Turn 240, 1100 AD: Temujin's Spearman is hit for 16 (84/100HP)
Turn 240, 1100 AD: Temujin's Spearman is hit for 16 (68/100HP)
Turn 240, 1100 AD: Saladin's Archer is hit for 24 (28/100HP)
Turn 240, 1100 AD: Saladin's Archer is hit for 24 (4/100HP)
Turn 240, 1100 AD: Temujin's Spearman is hit for 16 (52/100HP)
Turn 240, 1100 AD: Saladin's Archer is hit for 24 (0/100HP)
Turn 240, 1100 AD: Temujin's Spearman has defeated Saladin's Archer!
Turn 240, 1100 AD: Your Spearman has destroyed a Archer!
Turn 240, 1100 AD: Your Catapult has reduced the defenses of Damascus to 22%!
Turn 240, 1100 AD: Your Catapult has reduced the defenses of Damascus to 16%!
Turn 240, 1100 AD: Your Catapult has reduced the defenses of Damascus to 10%!
Turn 240, 1100 AD: Your Catapult has reduced the defenses of Damascus to 4%!


dV

In my experience, once the AI is willing to give up techs for peace, they stay willing unless they suddenly start winning the war...I could be wrong though as it seems most of the time the AI prefers to fight to the bitter end against me, rather than give me some technological gift to survive.

Nice going dV! I won't be able to see the save until tomorrow, but it sounds promising.

The roster order is

Lehm - waiting
Conquistador 63 - on deck
hellwitch - Up Now
da_Vinci - just played
Thrallia - in the hole
g_storrow - waiting
Scout 214 - waiting
Ronnie1 - waiting

Without seeing the save, I think we should take Sal off the south island. Then make peace for all we can get. We can withdraw all but a single mp in Mecca for the attack on Alex. Hopefully the barbs will place a city or 2 down there to eat up some space.

got the save. So taking Damascus is obvious then i think make peace for the techs make sence. To the end of my round i will transport our troop near Alex. Other thoughts or suggestions?
Finishing Sal maybe but i dont think we must loose more turns on him. We can benefit more in few war/peace affords with Sal because we can get some techs and money that way.

got the save. So taking Damascus is obvious then i think make peace for the techs make sence. To the end of my round i will transport our troop near Alex. Other thoughts or suggestions?
Finishing Sal maybe but i dont think we must loose more turns on him. We can benefit more in few war/peace affords with Sal because we can get some techs and money that way. My thinking on Knocking off sal first on big island is that
1. we then don't need to leave a big defense in place in Mecca
2. Barbs can start to fill it with cities
3. The troops are already there ... if we split the stack, then we take both remaining cities at the same time, then ...
4. Our entire army moves to Greece with extra promotions
5. All new units go directly to Greece with no need to spend any more turns to chase after Sal.
6. We get all the pillage cash now and can spam troops.

Otherwise, either Sal repopulates the Island, or we have to keep enough troops there to keep knocking him back. So maybe it is less hassle to clear the island during your turn, then the whole stack, plus new units in production goes to Greece ... might be faster in the long run?

I think we might waste a lot of moves chasing Sal later, when we can clear him while we are right there now. Give it some thought ... although I can see that keeping him around as a whiping boy has its good points too.

If we leave the improvements standing, the barbs cities spawn where tile yield is max, I think ... so they should fill that island nicely. Maybe the reason to kill sal now is that such a plan is really much better for our barb allies, and at worst just a small delay for us (I think maybe faster in the long run as no future diversions to that island) ... so on balance, clearing Sal on that island first seems like the best play ... unless that loses the trade deal. It maximizes the value of our ally.

dV

So dV is for finishing Sal.
My opinion is to raze Damascus and go for Alex now. (as we could meet longbows later and). Also the techs we will gain: HBR - Keshiks ;) ,Monarchy - a unstopable source of happines + 23 turn earlier Alfa , are good benefit. For the troops a Axe and a Sword are enough to raze every new city that Sal will settle. These new cities wont be much at all - Sal will have only 2 week snow towns. We can pillage the iron regularly and Sal will stuck with archers.
About the benefit from attacking Alex earlier look at the attached picture. GL+Mids are hudge advantage!!!!
New barb cities - they are not plus they are minus because the will add hudge maintenance to the babs.(I've looked at Aryan and the barbs have 60% science slider at the moment - 4 breaker) and for what - 2-3 barb ice cities which will produce useless units(they will never meet battle).
A more precisious examination of the barb city of Aryan tells me that this town is a real monster - tons of food, commerce and hammers.(this is my dream town for OCC game)
If the barb stay with this town only they could make more breakers than us(at same %) after ~ 40-50 turns. As the city is on the big continent( and not too far away to our future invasion position) we would like all barb units to be builded there.
My conclusion: a easy cat-mouse game with Sals + earlier GL and mids must be our near strategy.

One other thing - IMO we must settle the West island on 1N of the horses soon(maybe somewhere around the invasion vs Alex) so i want to start a settler (but i dont know where for now) in my round. What do you think for this teamates. Do i need to write again why this city is good and important.

P.S. As i want to wake up the discusion thats why i will delay my turn set for some time.(i will play in the 48 hours as i had to)

My conclusion: a easy cat-mouse game with Sals + earlier GL and mids must be our near strategy.

One other thing - IMO we must settle the West island on 1N of the horses soon(maybe somewhere around the invasion vs Alex) so i want to start a settler (but i dont know where for now) in my round. What do you think for this teamates. Do i need to write again why this city is good and important.

P.S. As i want to wake up the discusion thats why i will delay my turn set for some time.(i will play in the 48 hours as i had to) You make good points for early peace with Sal. If you are confident that Sal will not be a major distraction, and that the barbs won't benefit from cities on that island, I can agree with peace after Damascus razed.

Do barbs pay maint? no distance from palace issue, but maybe # of cities? Or maybe none?

I was figuring we get all the techs from sal after we take last two on the island anyway ... if that is not true then definitely peace after Damascus.

Your point about hitting alex before LB is a good one too. So I could go either way on this one.

Addendum: but he can make axes for the 10 turns before we redeclare and pillage the iron, and he can rebuild the iron during peace, so we may have to contend with a few axes along the way. Just keep this in mind. Also, I was thinking the barbs would resettle Medina site and Damascus site, with pre-built improvements, so not just barb ice cities. Early peace may still be better, but taking the last two cites may not be as bad as you say either. I still can be convinced either way.

I like the WIsland horse city, but can we afford it? we keep Athens for sure, and we have to pay the troops. We are barely making money at 0 sci now.

But if we build a settler, I'd say pasture the pigs, and whip it in Karak ... pop will grow back fast with two 5F tiles.

dV

IMO when we invade alex the tresury will go up. We will keep the cities growing, working on cottages too. So our economy will goes better and better. Thats why i think we can afford 1N city. (the goody hut can be good too)
I've notice new point in the current situation - Alex is the only one without calendar and he have 150 gold. It is event possible to make him a trade budy for few turns before we attack him.
For the research route Col next as we could get MC from Alex. Also if i keep our force in our bourders we could aford 10-20% science!?!(cant decide is it right to do it).
I think our next tech route must be toward Col> (MC from Alex) Machinary>Engineering>CS(or Col>CS>(MC from alex)>Mach>Eng ) if we open the research again.
I agree for a settler in karak after the popup.

IMO when we invade alex the tresury will go up. We will keep the cities growing, working on cottages too. So our economy will goes better and better. Thats why i think we can afford 1N city. (the goody hut can be good too)
I've notice new point in the current situation - Alex is the only one without calendar and he have 150 gold. It is event possible to make him a trade budy for few turns before we attack him.
For the research route Col next as we could get MC from Alex. Also if i keep our force in our bourders we could aford 10-20% science!?!(cant decide is it right to do it).
I think our next tech route must be toward Col> (MC from Alex) Machinary>Engineering>CS(or Col>CS>(MC from alex)>Mach>Eng ) if we open the research again.
I agree for a settler in karak after the popup. see some extra comments that crossposted with you, in my past post (last of the italics)

Doubt that alex gets happy enough with us to trade before war, unless gift of calendar does it? He also does not have theol.

When you say keep force in border, you mean after we own Athens, I assume? Isn't the point to attack with our troops as fast as we can? Any plan that is based on keeping troops home for very long defeats the point, I think.

We can plantation the dyes for fast cash ... not sure why we have cottages on two of them now (?)

One benefit of razing the other two sal cities is we get that cash now ... is that important, or is the speed to Greece more important?

dV

The idea of taking some of a civ's cities, making peace and moving on to another while leaving that one in our backfield to build up and counterattack seems like a mistake.

I'd make peace to extract techs, alleviate war weariness, allow our pops to grow and get a breather to build more troops in order to resume the fight as soon as possible. This is not a scenario in which the 'sit back and build up plan' works. Attack! Leave nothing in our backfield.

Destroy Sal ASAP. THE only reason to delay at all is to build up more troops if necessary.

Make peace with other civs farther afield to buy us reduced WW, pop growth and build up troops. Then attack. No unnecessary delays.

I mean to transport the land troop by land not in the galleys. And yes IMO fast attack on Alex is my point.

Destroy Sal ASAP. THE only reason to delay at all is to build up more troops if necessary.

.

Sal is dead as it is now. 3 snow cities will not make counterattack at all. The only reason to keep Sal alive is that there are greater benefits which wait to be taken and i don't want to spend more time on Sal.
And for Sal's iron - i can make the peace after i pillage it. Sal cant finish a axe for 10 turn for sure. And IMO hi will stuck on archers and settlers(workers for us or cash if we had enough workers)
And for current cashflow i will take 150 gold from Alex on turn 0. Thats ~330 gold in the treasury. One of the questions is what to do with them - keep them for invasion support or use the for research (10% or 20%).

I think I agree with hellwitch. After Damascus falls, Sal will not recover from the ice. He may build some annoyance troops, and may even resettle, but we should be able to handle him with minimal troops.

We send all experienced troops to Alex, and backfill an Axe and maybe a Cat to the south island later.

I find out that some trades are good imo: rice for 3 gold to alex, stone for gems and 2 gold for Asoka(we dont need stone now and if we need it we can cancel this deal any time).
I found One bug we have 2 rices but on the diplo screen it says we have only one?!!??!?

I find out that some trades are good imo: rice for 3 gold to alex, stone for gems and 2 gold for Asoka(we dont need stone now and if we need it we can cancel this deal any time).
I found One bug we have 2 rices but on the diplo screen it says we have only one?!!??!? Oops! I think I traded a rice to Cyrus in my turn but forgot to log it ... sorry! :blush: We got a happniess resource IIRC. He asked, I thought why not?

I thought deals lasted 10 turns before your could cancel?

As long as we are certain that Sal will not be a problem if we let him live (and that the benefit to the barbs of clearing him is minimal), I am fine with raze Damascus, peace with Sal, go get Alex. hw seems convinced this is best, so who am I to resist? :lol:

Given this discussion, I am curious what folks think of my decision not to get peace after Medina was razed? My thought was that an intact Damascus would be a threat to Mecca, and right after barbs researched calendar, all we would get for peace was alpha at first. So for more cash, less pressure on Mecca, and hopefully more techs from peace, I went for Damascus. I think it works out better than the immediate peace would have.

dV

Given this discussion, I am curious what folks think of my decision not to get peace after Medina was razed? My thought was that an intact Damascus would be a threat to Mecca, and right after barbs researched calendar, all we would get for peace was alpha at first. So for more cash, less pressure on Mecca, and hopefully more techs from peace, I went for Damascus. I think it works out better than the immediate peace would have.I agree with your decision 100%.

i agree that you shouldn't left Damascus as it is not so bad town and can make troubles.
One thing that i didn't mention yet is after monarchy - instant revolt to it or to wait for more covics to come online(maybe after CS). IMO immidiate switch is better but ....cant find arg why not.

PS. i will play tomorrow so i want opinions about what kind of troops we need to build(IMO at least one more axe is needed) maybe cats or some mixture.

i agree that you shouldn't left Damascus as it is not so bad town and can make troubles.
One thing that i didn't mention yet is after monarchy - instant revolt to it or to wait for more covics to come online(maybe after CS). IMO immidiate switch is better but ....cant find arg why not.

PS. i will play tomorrow so i want opinions about what kind of troops we need to build(IMO at least one more axe is needed) maybe cats or some mixture. I am not sure that there is an urgent need for HR civic right now, for two reasons: most cities have pop room IIRC, and to make use of HR we need to have troops in the cities, but we really want them on the offensive.

So i think it can wait. Maybe we do it later. Whip at pop caps for now.

After mids, representation will put happy in some cites, so maybe don't need HR at all?

Regarding troops, we have a nice set of swords, could use some more axe to defend them from axe. Already pretty good on spear IIRC. Mostly cats now I would think. I like to sacrifice one or two with barrage promotions, then use either CR cats or other troops (if odds are really good, or who needs a combat for a promo, etc.) to finish off a city.

dV

I see no need for HR civic right now. After we get Mids, we will have all of the options available. I agree with more Cats.

I agree with razing damascus, then peacing Sal. In my opinion, it is much more efficient to peace him now, go for Alex, and later on, bring some new troops past Sal and take him out for some extra experience on the way to the real front lines.

The top conquest/domination players in the XOTMs usually go after an enemy until it is no longer a threat, peace it, go after someone else, and then finish the first enemy later on, as he produces replacement troops and they pass by on the way toward the front. IMO, it makes plenty of sense to do so here...Sal won't be a threat, we need the GL and Pyramids, Alex is still weak militarily, and it will take very few turns to finish off Sal later on.

As for research, I agree CoL should be next, not just to unlock CS, but also because Courthouses will be key to allowing us to keep important cities we take as we go to war.

And for troops, I agree that we need cats...I'd say we need an almost 50/50 cat/everything else ratio for a rapid deployment when we get to the main continent.

Lastly, I disagree that we need HR as well. Once we get the Mids, we can adopt either Representation(which will give +2 happy in 5 cities) or Police State(which will remove half of our WW once we redeclare war on people)

@Thrallia: does this mean you found your disk? :D

dV

nope :(

I actually came up with all that just by reading the thread and looking at the screenshots posted by hw.

I think my brother may have borrowed it, in which case I should be able to get it back monday or tuesday(unless I'm wrong about him borrowing it) so I'm hoping to still be able to play my turnset without a swap or skip(since I'm still 2 away from going)

It´s a horrible imagination to not find one´s CIV disk. How do you deal with that? What does one do without CIV? Is there a life without playing CIV? Can´t imagine that... :D

Now i am playing....
after 3 turns our economy is back online as the research(50% on -13 gpt Col is 18 turns away, 546 gold in the tresury).

I have played 10 turns.

here is the session log:
Here is your Session Turn Log from 1100 AD to 1166 AD:

Turn 240, 1100 AD: Temujin's Spearman (4.80) vs Saladin's Archer (3.30)
Turn 240, 1100 AD: Combat Odds: 86.3%
Turn 240, 1100 AD: (Extra Combat: -20%)
Turn 240, 1100 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 240, 1100 AD: Saladin's Archer is hit for 24 (76/100HP)
Turn 240, 1100 AD: Saladin's Archer is hit for 24 (52/100HP)
Turn 240, 1100 AD: Temujin's Spearman is hit for 16 (84/100HP)
Turn 240, 1100 AD: Temujin's Spearman is hit for 16 (68/100HP)
Turn 240, 1100 AD: Saladin's Archer is hit for 24 (28/100HP)
Turn 240, 1100 AD: Saladin's Archer is hit for 24 (4/100HP)
Turn 240, 1100 AD: Temujin's Spearman is hit for 16 (52/100HP)
Turn 240, 1100 AD: Saladin's Archer is hit for 24 (0/100HP)
Turn 240, 1100 AD: Temujin's Spearman has defeated Saladin's Archer!
Turn 240, 1100 AD: Temujin's Swordsman (6.60) vs Saladin's Archer (4.32)
Turn 240, 1100 AD: Combat Odds: 88.2%
Turn 240, 1100 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 240, 1100 AD: (Plot Defense: +4%)
Turn 240, 1100 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 240, 1100 AD: (City Defense: +70%)
Turn 240, 1100 AD: (City Attack: -55%)
Turn 240, 1100 AD: Temujin's Swordsman is hit for 16 (84/100HP)
Turn 240, 1100 AD: Temujin's Swordsman is hit for 16 (68/100HP)
Turn 240, 1100 AD: Saladin's Archer is hit for 24 (76/100HP)
Turn 240, 1100 AD: Saladin's Archer is hit for 24 (52/100HP)
Turn 240, 1100 AD: Saladin's Archer is hit for 24 (28/100HP)
Turn 240, 1100 AD: Saladin's Archer is hit for 24 (4/100HP)
Turn 240, 1100 AD: Saladin's Archer is hit for 24 (0/100HP)
Turn 240, 1100 AD: Temujin's Swordsman has defeated Saladin's Archer!
Turn 240, 1100 AD: Temujin's Swordsman (6.60) vs Saladin's Archer (2.97)
Turn 240, 1100 AD: Combat Odds: 99.2%
Turn 240, 1100 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 240, 1100 AD: (Plot Defense: +4%)
Turn 240, 1100 AD: (City Defense: +50%)
Turn 240, 1100 AD: (City Attack: -55%)
Turn 240, 1100 AD: Saladin's Archer is hit for 29 (71/100HP)
Turn 240, 1100 AD: Saladin's Archer is hit for 29 (42/100HP)
Turn 240, 1100 AD: Temujin's Swordsman is hit for 13 (87/100HP)
Turn 240, 1100 AD: Saladin's Archer is hit for 29 (13/100HP)
Turn 240, 1100 AD: Saladin's Archer is hit for 29 (0/100HP)
Turn 240, 1100 AD: Temujin's Swordsman has defeated Saladin's Archer!
Turn 240, 1100 AD: Temujin's Swordsman (6.60) vs Saladin's Spearman (3.17)
Turn 240, 1100 AD: Combat Odds: 99.3%
Turn 240, 1100 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 240, 1100 AD: (Plot Defense: +4%)
Turn 240, 1100 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 240, 1100 AD: (City Attack: -55%)
Turn 240, 1100 AD: Saladin's Spearman is hit for 28 (72/100HP)
Turn 240, 1100 AD: Saladin's Spearman is hit for 28 (44/100HP)
Turn 240, 1100 AD: Saladin's Spearman is hit for 28 (16/100HP)
Turn 240, 1100 AD: Saladin's Spearman is hit for 28 (0/100HP)
Turn 240, 1100 AD: Temujin's Swordsman has defeated Saladin's Spearman!
Turn 240, 1100 AD: You have captured Damascus!!!
Turn 240, 1100 AD: You have destroyed the city of Damascus!!!

Turn 242, 1112 AD: Temujin's Swordsman (6.60) vs Saladin's Archer (4.20)
Turn 242, 1112 AD: Combat Odds: 93.8%
Turn 242, 1112 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 242, 1112 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 242, 1112 AD: (City Defense: +70%)
Turn 242, 1112 AD: (City Attack: -55%)
Turn 242, 1112 AD: Temujin's Swordsman is hit for 16 (84/100HP)
Turn 242, 1112 AD: Saladin's Archer is hit for 25 (75/100HP)
Turn 242, 1112 AD: Temujin's Swordsman is hit for 16 (68/100HP)
Turn 242, 1112 AD: Temujin's Swordsman is hit for 16 (52/100HP)
Turn 242, 1112 AD: Temujin's Swordsman is hit for 16 (36/100HP)
Turn 242, 1112 AD: Saladin's Archer is hit for 25 (50/100HP)
Turn 242, 1112 AD: Saladin's Archer is hit for 25 (25/100HP)
Turn 242, 1112 AD: Saladin's Archer is hit for 25 (0/100HP)
Turn 242, 1112 AD: Temujin's Swordsman has defeated Saladin's Archer!
Turn 242, 1112 AD: Qin Shi Huang has declared war on Alexander!
Turn 242, 1112 AD: Chuang-Tzu has been born in Persepolis!

Turn 243, 1118 AD: Temujin's Axeman (6.50) vs Saladin's Spearman (3.20)
Turn 243, 1118 AD: Combat Odds: 99.2%
Turn 243, 1118 AD: (Extra Combat: -30%)
Turn 243, 1118 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 243, 1118 AD: (Combat: -50%)
Turn 243, 1118 AD: Saladin's Spearman is hit for 28 (72/100HP)
Turn 243, 1118 AD: Saladin's Spearman is hit for 28 (44/100HP)
Turn 243, 1118 AD: Saladin's Spearman is hit for 28 (16/100HP)
Turn 243, 1118 AD: Temujin's Axeman is hit for 14 (86/100HP)
Turn 243, 1118 AD: Temujin's Axeman is hit for 14 (72/100HP)
Turn 243, 1118 AD: Temujin's Axeman is hit for 14 (58/100HP)
Turn 243, 1118 AD: Saladin's Spearman is hit for 28 (0/100HP)
Turn 243, 1118 AD: Temujin's Axeman has defeated Saladin's Spearman!
Turn 243, 1118 AD: You have captured Baghdad!!!
Turn 243, 1118 AD: You have destroyed the city of Baghdad!!!
Turn 243, 1118 AD: You have made peace with Saladin!
Turn 243, 1118 AD: You have discovered Monarchy!
Turn 243, 1118 AD: You have discovered Alphabet!
Turn 243, 1118 AD: You have discovered Horseback Riding!
Turn 243, 1118 AD: Christianity has spread in Nagoya.

Turn 244, 1124 AD: Isabella adopts Hereditary Rule!
Turn 244, 1124 AD: Euclid has been born in a far away land!

Turn 248, 1148 AD: Tokugawa adopts Vassalage!
Turn 248, 1148 AD: Tokugawa adopts Serfdom!

Turn 249, 1154 AD: You have plundered 6? from the Farm!
Turn 249, 1154 AD: You have plundered 22? from the Village!
Turn 249, 1154 AD: You have trained Christian Missionary in West Bridge Ham. Work has now begun on a Galley.

Turn 250, 1160 AD: You have plundered 14? from the Hamlet!
Turn 250, 1160 AD: You have plundered 1? from the Cottage!


The Galley near EastBridge must go to Alex land(i've made a OB) and get circumnavigation bonus as there is a 3 tile fog to be complete.
2 of Galleys are on a way to alex border. One Galley must unload the worker and the axe and must transport the missionary to Mecca then it can go for Alex border too.
All land troops are heading to EastBridge.
In Karak i've hired a priest for few turns, hi must stay 2 more turns till a GP is born. If it is a propet we can get the srine in WBridge.
During my turn set i've pillaged Sals land for the gold so we have a good tresury now ~ 500 gold.
We are 3 turns from finding Col.
I've whip a library in Mecca. the current sword is for the last Sals town as we can get literature from him if we made war/peace with him again. Be carefull - Mecca has read faces on pop 4 so it must be handled.
The Settler in Karak is for 1N from horses city on the West island as this is very good spot.

Nice going hw! Will examine save later today.

The roster order is

Lehm - waiting
Conquistador 63 - Up Now
hellwitch - just played
da_Vinci - waiting
Thrallia - on deck
g_storrow - in the hole
Scout 214 - waiting
Ronnie1 - waiting

Got it. I'll post my plans later.

Nicely done hw! :goodjob:

Happy in Mecca will improve when the missionary arrives (if successful), and I expect sometime during this turnset, one more whip unhappy should wear off.

The cottages on the dyes are maturing nicely ... they will be as good as plantation soon so we leave those alone.

There is a third hill in Turfan that we can mine ... for 14 hpt in that city. I think the workers go there after the pasture is done.

Long term we might want to send the troops from WestIlse and WBridge over toward Aryan ... raze the little Indian cities, let Aryan spread out a bit. Troops made elsewhere go east. Troops made in Mecca work against Sal.

Are two separate armies in separate theatres of action better than one large army?

dV

I looked at the save and I have a few questions:
1. Which tech next? I suggest Metalcasting. Or maybe CS? Alex already has MC, maybe we can get it along other techs for peace after getting his capitol. BTW, luckily Qin is already at war with Alex, we really need to rush and jump into this.
2. On next Gperson: if GP, is the shrine really worth it? We have few cities, are we planning on spamming missionaries to each new city? If not, maybe settling him in Karak, or LB Divine Right for later trade is better? A GS would LB Philo, I suppose, is that a good option (also for trade?)
3.Should we whip settler in Karak after GP is born? I think so, it can regrow fast enough.
4. Should I let East Bridge grow after lighthouse? That implies not working the iron. I'm not sure it is worth to work the coast tiles there, but since the LH has been built...
5. Cyrus has silk available to trade but we have nothing to offer besides the rice we already sold to him for 6 gold. Should we renegotiate this deal, getting silk instead for the added happy?

I looked at the save and I have a few questions:
1. Which tech next? I suggest Metalcasting. Or maybe CS? Alex already has MC, maybe we can get it along other techs for peace after getting his capitol. BTW, luckily Qin is already at war with Alex, we really need to rush and jump into this. Too bad Qin won't make peace. If we declare on Alex now, might the MMS make Qin willing to make peace? Then we could trade with him, and a bulbed tech might be nice to have (he does not have theo). Or would Qin and Alex make peace right away? Do we need to hold off on declaring war with Alex until troops are in place?

If we revolted to no religion, could we then make peace with Qin and trade? Then we declare on Alex and we can go back to Christianity. Maybe this works after some MMS? Just something to ponder.

2. On next Gperson: if GP, is the shrine really worth it? We have few cities, are we planning on spamming missionaries to each new city? If not, maybe settling him in Karak, or LB Divine Right for later trade is better? A GS would LB Philo, I suppose, is that a good option (also for trade?) Shrine will be 6 gpt immediately, more later. Not much right now, but is a settled priest better? If settled priest generates GPpoints (I settle them so rarely, I forget), then they are for priest, perhaps the least useful GP now. So I am leaning toward shrine. Maybe settle the GS, if not bulb philo

3.Should we whip settler in Karak after GP is born? I think so, it can regrow fast enough. Can you guess how I vote on this? ;) :lol:

4. Should I let East Bridge grow after lighthouse? That implies not working the iron. I'm not sure it is worth to work the coast tiles there, but since the LH has been built... We get double production on granaries, so we could build that in 8, then go for the growth ... we will have plenty of cities making troops after WestIsle is founded. Seems like the only way to get much out of EastBridge. Can switch to iron from time to time to build infrastructure such as library, whip to finish, then off iron to grow back. The cottages will mature over time ... so commerce infrasturcture makes sense I think.

5. Cyrus has silk available to trade but we have nothing to offer besides the rice we already sold to him for 6 gold. Should we renegotiate this deal, getting silk instead for the added happy? The only city that need extra happy right now is Mecca, but miss will provide that (and a temple after that) ... maybe we need the GPT for troops and research more? We will have extra resources after we found WestIsle, so we could get the silk now and the GPT back later? Not sure which is best.

dV

I vote for build shrine if GP, bulb Philosophy if GS.

I like CS after CoL, with an eye to MC from Alex after hurting him.

I vote renegotiate deal for silk.

I don't think we should whip more than 1 pop in Karak, and I think we need to pasture the pigs.

If we are going to run cottages in Westbridge, we should finish the Library.

With all those turns invested in the lighthouse (Eastbridge), I guess we should let it grow. I would rather produce galleys here working the iron and the 2 cottages.

Finally on setting up the assault on Athens. Since we have OB, we can get a good look before we declare. I think we need to do as we did before. Find a good defensive postion where we can withstand the counter attack. Hopefully there is a position that allows bombardment at the same time. We should land as many units as we can in wave 1 and have at least 1 medic.

We can NOT get the circumnav bonus according to Gyathaar early in the process of setting up this game.

By hw, The Settler in Karak is for 1N from horses city on the West island as this is very good spot.I believe you mean 1S of the horse?

I believe you mean 1S of the horse?
Yes that is what i meant. Sorry for the mistake.

I vote for build shrine if GP, bulb Philosophy if GS too.

The deal with Cyrus must be for the gpt till we reach happy limit in more cities than Mecca. The deal can be cancel anytime but we don't need happines right now(we will get wine soon plus representation after taking the mids in long term).
IMO we need religion as all new troops need expirience.
I also like CS for next tech

S of horse has better food (by 2 fpt after Lighthouse) and same 4 hills, so that makes sense.

Any use for Literature now? maybe not yet, it is getting free beakers and we don't have marble (but Japan does close to Greece). But after we get marble from Toku, might be useful for HE (WestIlse perhaps) and even NE in Karak with scientists. Might get it for free by then.

CS makes sense now ... but if the barbs won't research that as well, maybe consider co-researcing what they are doing if it is useful ... we get the use of it sooner.

dV

from what i have seen it this game the barbs research as us if the tech is somehow availiable in their path or go on their basic way if we go for someting too advanced. IMO the co-operation with them is not good because our path folow a strategy but theirs dont. As i already said CS is the natural choice for me. It is the missing part of the "mace" bline because we can get MC and Machinary from peace or trade.

Turnset played and uploaded. No combat, just troop movement. We got a GP for the shrine and are teching CS. I sent troops down to Sal's city ,we can redeclare, capture 2 workers next turn if you see fit, but WW can be a problem.

Lots of troops, few boats on East Bridge. Next player will have to address this issue. The exploring galley, on its way back, will reveal Athens defenses next turn. Don't go east as there are 2 chinese galleys there.

New Log Entries
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Turn 240/660 (1100 AD) [08-Sep-2007 19:56:32]
Research begun: Code of Laws (3 Turns)
Turfan Hammers grows: 6
Turfan Hammers finishes: Catapult
West Bridge Ham grows: 4

IBT:
Attitude Change: Qin Shi Huang(China) towards Saladin(Arabia), from 'Pleased' to 'Cautious'
Attitude Change: Qin Shi Huang(China) towards Alexander(Greece), from 'Cautious' to 'Annoyed'
Attitude Change: Tokugawa(Japan) towards Cyrus(Persia), from 'Annoyed' to 'Furious'
Attitude Change: Tokugawa(Japan) towards Alexander(Greece), from 'Friendly' to 'Pleased'
Attitude Change: Asoka(India) towards Saladin(Arabia), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'
Attitude Change: Alexander(Greece) towards Qin Shi Huang(China), from 'Annoyed' to 'Furious'

Turn 252/660 (1172 AD) [10-Sep-2007 22:01:05]
Turfan Hammers begins: Catapult (6 turns)
Galley promoted: Combat I
Mo Tzu (Great Prophet) born in Karakorum

IBT:

Turn 253/660 (1178 AD) [10-Sep-2007 22:08:13]
User comment: Izzy want us to convert Judaism, we refuse
User comment: Clams for 6gpt to Izzy
Tech learned: Code of Laws

IBT:

Turn 254/660 (1184 AD) [10-Sep-2007 22:18:35]
Research begun: Civil Service (43 Turns)
User comment: Alex wants Theo I say no
Christianity has spread: Mecca
Mecca's borders expand

IBT:
Civics Change: Cyrus(Persia) from 'Barbarism' to 'Bureaucracy'
Civics Change: Cyrus(Persia) from 'Slavery' to 'Serfdom'

Turn 255/660 (1190 AD) [10-Sep-2007 22:27:42]
West Bridge Ham finishes: The Church of the Nativity
Mecca grows: 4

IBT:
Attitude Change: Qin Shi Huang(China) towards Asoka(India), from 'Annoyed' to 'Furious'
Civics Change: Asoka(India) from 'Barbarism' to 'Vassalage'
Civics Change: Isabella(Spain) from 'Barbarism' to 'Vassalage'

Turn 256/660 (1196 AD) [10-Sep-2007 22:33:45]

IBT:

Turn 257/660 (1202 AD) [10-Sep-2007 22:37:26]
Turfan Hammers finishes: Catapult
West Bridge Ham finishes: Galley
East Bridge finishes: Lighthouse
Mecca finishes: Swordsman

IBT:
Taoism founded in a distant land

Turn 258/660 (1208 AD) [10-Sep-2007 22:41:05]
Turfan Hammers begins: Catapult (6 turns)
East Bridge begins: Granary (45 turns)
Mecca begins: Courthouse (20 turns)
Swordsman promoted: City Raider I
Swordsman promoted: City Raider II
Beshbalik finishes: Galley
West Bridge Ham's borders expand

IBT:
Attitude Change: Qin Shi Huang(China) towards Asoka(India), from 'Furious' to 'Annoyed'

Turn 259/660 (1214 AD) [10-Sep-2007 22:48:20]
Beshbalik begins: Galley (10 turns)
User comment: Qin has 2 galleys W of Athens

looks like it is a good thing I was able to get my disc back from my brother today :D

I'll take a look at the save after school tomorrow for more thoughts, but my first impression is to go ahead and grab those two workers from Saladin, but I'm not sure how long it would take for him to be willing to peace us again, so it may not be worthwhile.

Also, I agree that we should head to CS next, and try to get MC from Alex after we take Athens.

My last thought is that we definitely need to get Maces in order to conquer the world, as Cyrus, Asoka, and Isabella all have Feudalism now, from their civics changes(serfdom and vassalage)

I have a close look at the save. We will have 5 galles for the attack.
IMO it is very possible to face a crossbows in alex capital. The obvious solution is 1-2 keshiks to have is the stack as they are the best counter we can have. When we attack the city the crossbows wont be problem as we have lots of cats but they are dangerous on the counterattack.

Is there a diplomatic play to be had by a brief time at no religion? That would make us 0 with Alex, maybe we could trade? Or will we just get all that from the war anyway, so not necessary? It is NOT on aggressive AI, so this might work? Or is Alex ornery?

He won't give all for peace easily, and Toku has compass (Caravels to get our galleys), so if we get two off Alex in trade, then get 1 or 2 by war ... ? I guess we are not his worst enemy now?

Trade with Alex will sour Qin, but that looks pretty hopeless now anyway.

War with Sal ... all he has is lit, and his research must suck. But why not take the workers, get the sack/pillage cash, by killing off the rest of his cities on the island, then that mop up army can go take out the Greek cities on the Corinth island, or finish off Sal in the NE to end motherland yearning in Mecca. The pillage cash would allow faster research. Sal will never be a source of techs, he is too poor.

If we do that, Mecca will have idle citizen until we revolt back.

So either right away, or after trade with Alex, we should land in the forest near Corinth, raze Corinth or at least pillage his iron, then go for Athens. We can pillage the athens horse and copper while we bombard him down, if necessary.

Westbridge is back making the library ... if it works all hills, can make galley in 8, if lack of transport is an issue. We need one there to take the settler west with some troops. Then that one can ferry workers home from Arabia, as we need them in WestIlse

dV

War with Sal is not a must but can be done as hi will hook the iron. Lit is small benefit as we will gain it free after some 10-15 turns. Mecca whip mad face will disapear after 4 turns so happiness will be a trouble but not too much.

About the war plan i think that geting athens first is the best war plan as the big bonuses are there. We will loose some turns in razing Corinth but that way we can transport 20 troops in 2 turns from Corinth isle to Athens so both plans will work IMO.

The only thing i want to be done is 1-2 keshiks (in the first group) or we can face the landing problems from Mecca battle.
For WestBridge - it need to grow IMO and we dont need this galley right now.

The diplo - no religion can allow us to trade with some of the AI - the problem is that we dont have tech to sell. The exp boots is good for now and i dont think it worth to try no state rel.

Nice work C63! I'll have a look a little later.

The roster order is

Lehm - waiting
Conquistador 63 - just played
hellwitch - waiting
da_Vinci - waiting
Thrallia - Up Now
g_storrow - on deck
Scout 214 - in the hole
Ronnie1 - waiting

I agree that going to no religion will not give us any measurable benefits over what we're getting right now from having religion(especially once you take into account the two turns of anarchy switching to and from no religion would give us)

I also agree with Thrallia's above analysis.
About a galley near Westbridge, it could pick up the idle worker (or more than 1, if we decide to DOW Sal again) then load them with settler for West Island city.

I am fine not going to no religion ... just wanted to bring it up for discussion.

How fast do we want to build up WestIsle? How soon is that settler done in Karak? How many workers does it need? The issue of whether to grow Westbridge now or make the galley now is relevant to how fast we can get WestIlse up and running. I think faster to WestIlse is the way to go.

If we don't need the galley on the east coast for troop transport, we can use it for WestIlse and don't need to make one in WestBridge. If we need that one to move east for troop transport, then we should make one in WestBridge IMO. I think that will be warfighter's choice (that's you, Mr. T ;) )

That also influences the war with Sal issue. Two free workers for WestIsle looks good to me, more conquest and pillage cash, and then those troops are free to back up the main attack. I don't see much reason to leave Sal hanging on any longer ...

War on Greece ... we should know what is in Athens soon as the galley swings round. Even if there were no city to raze, i think massing on the intermidiate island to get the whole force to Athens in a few turns is the way to go. Sack of Corinth ensures he does not get iron back up very fast, while we wait for the army to arrive.

dV

I agree to sack Corinth first because alex wont have troops there and we can make 'fast' attack vs Athens from there. I just would like to have a keshik in the stack because it will be a counter to possible crossbows and can pillage and move - which is good for the future pillage of alex iron.

One other thing - monastery in karak? IMO it will be good to be able to build monks not only in fronter city as it is now WBridge. the 10% research is welcome too.

As the conquest of greece is the obvious next step i would like to give attention on the strategy after that.
I saw Qin's town(old alex town) on the main land near alex. Maybe if we raze this town we can make peace with Qin?
IMO we could go vs Asoka and Izi next on th west afte alex campain.

A keshik or two in the stack makes sense to me.

dV

I vote declare on Sal, steal the workers, raze that city. I think Sal will give up another tech if he is down to 1 city.

If/When we go for Corinth to open the war on Alex, we should land defensive troops first, those Cats on the galley need to off load in Eastbridge and wait for the second wave of landings.

I think it works to start with Corinth also, but we need to be quick about it. Raze it, pillage the iron, and move to Athens.

I vote declare on Sal, steal the workers, raze that city. I think Sal will give up another tech if he is down to 1 city. Sal has two cities on that island, and a third NE of us IIRC. I think we take out BOTH on that island now, then those troops are free to join the main assault, or to mop up the corinth island, or to take Sal's last city.

If he gives us lit, then I think he will never have a tech that we don't already have, so his usefulness to us will be finished. And we can finish him.

If/When we go for Corinth to open the war on Alex, we should land defensive troops first, those Cats on the galley need to off load in Eastbridge and wait for the second wave of landings. Sounds right to me.

I think it works to start with Corinth also, but we need to be quick about it. Raze it, pillage the iron, and move to Athens. Agree here too.

dV

Sal has two cities on that island, and a third NE of us IIRC. I think we take out BOTH on that island now, then those troops are free to join the main assault, or to mop up the corinth island, or to take Sal's last city.If you go into diplomacy with Sal, it says he has 1 city Najran (NE of us), leaving only the capitol in the south.

EDIT: I like the idea of Keshiks also, but I don't think we should wait for them.

If you go into diplomacy with Sal, it says he has 1 city Najran (NE of us), leaving only the capitol in the south. Hmm ... have i been laboring under the misconception that Sal had two more cities on the Mecca island? maybe the shape of the cultural border led me to that without counting cities in diplomacy? :crazyeye:

Even better! Doesn't matter if it is one or two, just that we wipe him out on the Mecca island now.

dV

As the conquest of greece is the obvious next step i would like to give attention on the strategy after that.
I saw Qin's town(old alex town) on the main land near alex. Maybe if we raze this town we can make peace with Qin?
IMO we could go vs Asoka and Izi next on th west afte alex campain. What about going for Toku and his marble, research lit and build HE and NE? The army of the Greek campaign will already be there ...

Might be able to do that after your peace with Qin move.

dV

What about going for Toku and his marble, research lit and build HE and NE? The army of the Greek campaign will already be there ...

Might be able to do that after your peace with Qin move.

dV

I would have to agree with dV here. It just makes sense to move straight onto the mainland east of Athens. And we will want to try and hurt Japan before they get Samauri.

@ Thrallia, What are your plans for this turnset?

attack toku after alex with the same troops is no brainer. The problem is that Cyrus will fill the razed town positions fast and will became even stronger than now. IMO there is better situation in the West of the mainland for invasion - We can use Ayran(the barb city) as a base. Asoka is week and and some of his cities will be covered by barb's culture after they are razed. The geographical situation for war vs India is very good.
This war(in the west) must be done with new created troops which will be builded during the war vs Alex. At least we must send some support for the barb city.
The situation in the east is no so good - there are lot of cities to conquer till we reach Toku or Cyrus core cities and the capitals. These two civs are in a good shape now and the progress in a war vs one of them will be slow. Our best chance is to take advantage of a war between our main rivals - Toku, Cyrus and Izzi. The dilo situation is good for a bribe once we go to no religion. We have some positive diplo points with some of them(Toku) this can help too. For a campain is the east we must consider is it worth to keep Qin's town on the main land as a base(than depends on our economy ofcource).
Are we going after Qin in the future? Thats a metter of the victory type we will chase IMO.

All this thougths are just reminder for our future.

About the keshiks - they will be greate on the mainland with their movement. Too bad that they will be obsolete soon(after Guilds).

I would have to agree with dV here. It just makes sense to move straight onto the mainland east of Athens. And we will want to try and hurt Japan before they get Samauri.

@ Thrallia, What are your plans for this turnset?

unfortunately, I'll need to swap back 1 turnset...I have my disc, but I won't have the time available to devote to my turnset until Saturday.(my XOTMs are in trouble as well...I haven't even started WOTM 12 or GOTM 22 yet :()

@ Thrallia:

GOTM 22 probably will be a fast one. No chance of winning this game without cheating IMO.

attack toku after alex with the same troops is no brainer. The problem is that Cyrus will fill the razed town positions fast and will became even stronger than now. IMO there is better situation in the West of the mainland for invasion - We can use Ayran(the barb city) as a base. Asoka is week and and some of his cities will be covered by barb's culture after they are razed. The geographical situation for war vs India is very good.
This war(in the west) must be done with new created troops which will be builded during the war vs Alex. At least we must send some support for the barb city.
The situation in the east is no so good - there are lot of cities to conquer till we reach Toku or Cyrus core cities and the capitals. These two civs are in a good shape now and the progress in a war vs one of them will be slow. Our best chance is to take advantage of a war between our main rivals - Toku, Cyrus and Izzi. The dilo situation is good for a bribe once we go to no religion. We have some positive diplo points with some of them(Toku) this can help too. For a campain is the east we must consider is it worth to keep Qin's town on the main land as a base(than depends on our economy ofcource).
Are we going after Qin in the future? Thats a metter of the victory type we will chase IMO.

All this thougths are just reminder for our future.

Sorry about lack of posting. I agree with most of this but the main problem what do we do with the troops that has got rid off alex do we take them by ocean to teh other side of containent, that is risky and tiem consuming or do we land them and pillage and hoep to destroy a few cities but not really bothered. I think the best would be too but them in 1 or 2 stacks and pillage are way accross main island.
I think we leave qin ( i didnt know he was at mainlaand?)at the moment and sort the big island out after the greeks.
Which cities of the Greeks are we gonig to keep? Apart from Athens corinth looks nice.
I think we get rid of Sals city on our tundra and leave him hopefully with 1 city and literature.

I am away this weekend so can i be partially skipped until next early next week.

Let's see here ...

Thrallia needs to wait until Saturday to play, g_s would be the one to jump in ahead of Th, but can he? Going away this weekend ... g_s, are you able to play before you leave?

If not, maybe just easier to wait for Thrallia to play on Saturday rather than rush g_s or rush someone else up to the front?

If you are able to play g_s, I think the rest of us are thinking to raze Corinth to avoid escalating our maint costs ... would have to reconsider the idea of keeping it ... what do others think about that?

dV

sorry not able to play if eveyone thinks we raise then we raise

OK, I spoke to Scout214, he can play tomorrow night (I can catch him up on the consensus plan before then) ... after that Thrallia can play over the weekend if we have a consensus on how to proceed (or whenever we get there ... depends on how far into the Athens assault we get I suppose) then g_storrow after that, then R1 to end the inning.

How does that sound to all? And do we have the blesssing of the boss (R1)?

On hw's toku discussion, maybe we take just enough of Toku to get the marble, then make peace? Maybe Cyrus will go after a weaker Toku, while we operate in the west as hw suggested (I like the pincers approach to the big continent).

dV

The roster order is

Lehm - waiting
Conquistador 63 - just played
hellwitch - waiting
da_Vinci - waiting
Thrallia - flipping turns (on deck)
g_storrow - flipping turns (in the hole)
Scout 214 - UP NOW
Ronnie1 - waiting

HW's plan for the west makes sense. But I also like using our troops in the east for something. I still think we try to take Japan down a notch or two before they get Samurai. As dV suggests, maybe bribe Cyrus into war on Japan as his UU is already obsolete.

I still say raze Corinth, we can rebuild in an ideal spot for best land usage later if we need to.

We should probably start to nail down if we are going for Domination or Conquest.

I say - lets raze Corinth.
IMO we must make or keep one city on Corinth island but that could be done later.

We smoked Sal's city in the south, killed his galley with one of our new ones near Mecca, then made peace with him for Lit & 20.

Chinese (who would not make peace) galleys chased our galley back to the East Bridge staging area, where we by then had 4 more galleys. As it went, it scouted Alex...

Athens 3 galleys, 1 phallanx, 1 HA, 1 Archer, 1 w. We later encountered a Greek galley w/settler & worker after going to war and sac'd 1 galley to kill that. It likely came from Athens.

Corinth 1 Ph, 1 A, 1 wb w/nearby 1 Ax, 1 HA, 1 w

Sparta (near East Bridge) 1 Ph, 1 A. We have now reduced Sparta to 4% and should decide what to do with it, Corinth and Delphi before the next turnset proceeds.

We have a settler on the west island w/ a worker. Needs a garrison. We're about to finish our first Keshik next turn, in Turfan. We have spare troops and a healing galley in Mecca.



Here is your Session Turn Log from 1214 AD to 1274 AD:

Turn 259, 1214 AD: Qin has 2 galleys W of Athens

Turn 260, 1220 AD: You have trained a Settler in Karakorum. Work has now begun on a Catapult.
Turn 260, 1220 AD: St. John has been born in Beijing!

Turn 262, 1232 AD: Temujin's Chariot (4.40) vs Saladin's Catapult (5.00)
Turn 262, 1232 AD: Combat Odds: 30.3%
Turn 262, 1232 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 262, 1232 AD: Saladin's Catapult is hit for 18 (82/100HP)
Turn 262, 1232 AD: Temujin's Chariot is hit for 21 (79/100HP)
Turn 262, 1232 AD: Saladin's Catapult is hit for 18 (64/100HP)
Turn 262, 1232 AD: Temujin's Chariot is hit for 21 (58/100HP)
Turn 262, 1232 AD: Saladin's Catapult is hit for 18 (46/100HP)
Turn 262, 1232 AD: Temujin's Chariot is hit for 21 (37/100HP)
Turn 262, 1232 AD: Temujin's Chariot is hit for 21 (16/100HP)
Turn 262, 1232 AD: Saladin's Catapult is hit for 18 (28/100HP)
Turn 262, 1232 AD: Saladin's Catapult is hit for 18 (10/100HP)
Turn 262, 1232 AD: Saladin's Catapult is hit for 18 (0/100HP)
Turn 262, 1232 AD: Temujin's Chariot has defeated Saladin's Catapult!
Turn 262, 1232 AD: Ptolemy has been born in Athens!

Turn 263, 1238 AD: Temujin's Swordsman (6.60) vs Saladin's Archer (4.20)
Turn 263, 1238 AD: Combat Odds: 93.8%
Turn 263, 1238 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 263, 1238 AD: (Plot Defense: +20%)
Turn 263, 1238 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 263, 1238 AD: (City Defense: +50%)
Turn 263, 1238 AD: (City Attack: -55%)
Turn 263, 1238 AD: Temujin's Swordsman is hit for 16 (84/100HP)
Turn 263, 1238 AD: Temujin's Swordsman is hit for 16 (68/100HP)
Turn 263, 1238 AD: Saladin's Archer is hit for 25 (75/100HP)
Turn 263, 1238 AD: Saladin's Archer is hit for 25 (50/100HP)
Turn 263, 1238 AD: Temujin's Swordsman is hit for 16 (52/100HP)
Turn 263, 1238 AD: Saladin's Archer is hit for 25 (25/100HP)
Turn 263, 1238 AD: Temujin's Swordsman is hit for 16 (36/100HP)
Turn 263, 1238 AD: Temujin's Swordsman is hit for 16 (20/100HP)
Turn 263, 1238 AD: Saladin's Archer is hit for 25 (0/100HP)
Turn 263, 1238 AD: Temujin's Swordsman has defeated Saladin's Archer!
Turn 263, 1238 AD: You have captured Kufah!!!
Turn 263, 1238 AD: You have destroyed the city of Kufah!!!

Turn 266, 1256 AD: Karakorum will become unhappy on the next turn
Turn 266, 1256 AD: Isabella adopts Bureaucracy!
Turn 266, 1256 AD: Isabella adopts Serfdom!

Turn 267, 1262 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Mecca!
Turn 267, 1262 AD: Deal Canceled: Open Borders to Alexander for Open Borders
Turn 267, 1262 AD: Deal Canceled: Banana to Alexander for Gold Per Turn (3)
Turn 267, 1262 AD: Karakorum has grown to size 8
Turn 267, 1262 AD: Karakorum has become unhappy
Turn 267, 1262 AD: Beshbalik will grow to size 5 on the next turn
Turn 267, 1262 AD: You have trained a Galley in Mecca. Work has now begun on a Courthouse.
Turn 267, 1262 AD: Mecca will grow to size 5 on the next turn
Turn 267, 1262 AD: Mecca will become unhappy on the next turn
Turn 267, 1262 AD: Asoka adopts Hereditary Rule!
Turn 267, 1262 AD: Asoka adopts Bureaucracy!
Turn 267, 1262 AD: Alexander adopts Theocracy!
Turn 267, 1262 AD: You have discovered Currency!

Turn 268, 1268 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Mecca!
Turn 268, 1268 AD: Your Catapult has reduced the defenses of Sparta to 34%!
Turn 268, 1268 AD: Your Catapult has reduced the defenses of Sparta to 28%!
Turn 268, 1268 AD: Your Catapult has reduced the defenses of Sparta to 22%!
Turn 268, 1268 AD: Temujin's Galley (2.20) vs Alexander's Galley (2.20)
Turn 268, 1268 AD: Combat Odds: 50.0%
Turn 268, 1268 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 268, 1268 AD: (Plot Defense: +10%)
Turn 268, 1268 AD: Temujin's Galley is hit for 20 (80/100HP)
Turn 268, 1268 AD: Alexander's Galley is hit for 20 (80/100HP)
Turn 268, 1268 AD: Temujin's Galley is hit for 20 (60/100HP)
Turn 268, 1268 AD: Alexander's Galley is hit for 20 (60/100HP)
Turn 268, 1268 AD: Temujin's Galley is hit for 20 (40/100HP)
Turn 268, 1268 AD: Temujin's Galley is hit for 20 (20/100HP)
Turn 268, 1268 AD: Temujin's Galley is hit for 20 (0/100HP)
Turn 268, 1268 AD: Alexander's Galley has defeated Temujin's Galley!
Turn 268, 1268 AD: Your Galley has died trying to attack a Galley!
Turn 268, 1268 AD: Temujin's Galley (2.00) vs Alexander's Galley (1.32)
Turn 268, 1268 AD: Combat Odds: 95.2%
Turn 268, 1268 AD: (Plot Defense: +10%)
Turn 268, 1268 AD: Alexander's Galley is hit for 21 (39/100HP)
Turn 268, 1268 AD: Alexander's Galley is hit for 21 (18/100HP)
Turn 268, 1268 AD: Alexander's Galley is hit for 21 (0/100HP)
Turn 268, 1268 AD: Temujin's Galley has defeated Alexander's Galley!
Turn 268, 1268 AD: Your Galley has destroyed a Galley!
Turn 268, 1268 AD: Temujin's Galley (2.20) vs Saladin's Galley (2.20)
Turn 268, 1268 AD: Combat Odds: 50.0%
Turn 268, 1268 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 268, 1268 AD: (Plot Defense: +10%)
Turn 268, 1268 AD: Saladin's Galley is hit for 20 (80/100HP)
Turn 268, 1268 AD: Saladin's Galley is hit for 20 (60/100HP)
Turn 268, 1268 AD: Temujin's Galley is hit for 20 (80/100HP)
Turn 268, 1268 AD: Temujin's Galley is hit for 20 (60/100HP)
Turn 268, 1268 AD: Saladin's Galley is hit for 20 (40/100HP)
Turn 268, 1268 AD: Saladin's Galley is hit for 20 (20/100HP)
Turn 268, 1268 AD: Saladin's Galley is hit for 20 (0/100HP)
Turn 268, 1268 AD: Temujin's Galley has defeated Saladin's Galley!
Turn 268, 1268 AD: Your Galley has destroyed a Galley!
Turn 268, 1268 AD: You have made peace with Saladin!
Turn 268, 1268 AD: You have discovered Literature!
Turn 268, 1268 AD: Beshbalik has grown to size 5
Turn 268, 1268 AD: Mecca has grown to size 5
Turn 268, 1268 AD: Mecca has become unhappy
Turn 268, 1268 AD: Islam has been founded in a distant land!

Turn 269, 1274 AD: Your Catapult has reduced the defenses of Sparta to 16%!
Turn 269, 1274 AD: Your Catapult has reduced the defenses of Sparta to 10%!
Turn 269, 1274 AD: Your Catapult has reduced the defenses of Sparta to 4%!

You may wish to copy it to Notepad for reference when you write your turn set post. It includes any entries you added with the in-game Chat facility

The roster order is

Lehm - waiting
Conquistador 63 - waiting
hellwitch - waiting
da_Vinci - waiting
Thrallia - UP NOW
g_storrow - on deck
Scout 214 - just played
Ronnie1 - in the hole

I thought we were starting with Corinth? Razing the Iron, and then straight to Athens, did I miss something?

sounds like Alex is nearly ripe for the taking :)

My plan is to go ahead and take down Sparta, since there's only two troops there and we have troops there already. What should we do with Sparta?(and Delphi for that matter)

Then raze Corinth, and head to Athens.

I'm off to bed right now, then I've got to work...after work, I'll check here to see everyone's thoughts, post my updated plan, and then play.

as for whether we are headed for Conquest or Domination...I'll hold off my vote until I know whether or not we can hit domination by having our land, saladin's land, and the continent.

I thought we were starting with Corinth? Razing the Iron, and then straight to Athens, did I miss something? Turned out there are 3 Greek galleys in Athens and two Chinese ones had been in the area (Qin still won't make peace) and might still be lurking, so dropping the troops onto land ASAP to avoid loss at sea became an issue ... nearest drop point put them right next to Sparta, and hw had talked about wanting a city on that island, so now we can either raze Sparta for cash, or keep it, or ignore it and go over to Corinth and do either ...

Seems logical to pick up the conquest cash while we are there at Sparta though ...

I think we leave Delphi for a later mop up, like we did with Sal.

dV

coment to our overall strategy:

We could keep almost every city to reach the domination limit what sounds faster then conquest vic to me. But I don´t have experience in conquest victories. It just seems very easy to conquer the big continent city by city. Even Qin will be willing to make peace when we grow beyond a certain limit or after we took his city on the main continent. I don´t think the costs will ruin us as we will have a good income when conquering cities and of course we have to stop researching.

But to reach a fast victory we need units. That´s why I am wondering why we are producing a monastery in Karak and why we are still building that library in Westbridge. As we will shut down our research soon it was the biggest mistake in our play to continue that library.
So if we decide on going for domination (I vote for that) we should keep ALL cities heading to the east.
After a time we will send our troops to the west to follow dV´s pinces strategy as it sounds faster. When we see that we have enough troops on the big continent we we should build settlers on our home island and in Mecca to spawn them on Mecca Island.

If we are going for conquest I think we should keep Sparta as it is a more or less good city with fish and two production tiles and then we should raze Corinth and Delphi (we don´t need too much time for that).

After that we go for Athens.

It is too early to shut down the research. We must go to Engineering at least as the AI will spam Knights after guilds and we wont have counter. The monastery in Karak is needed for monks=exp in the new cities.
IMO we must keep Sparta, raze Corinth then go for Athens . We must skip Delphi as it is far and will cost us time while we can take corinth during the attack of Athens with the remaining troops on Corinth's island. Then we can make peace with Alex for his techs and after 10 turns we will finish him i.e. take Delphi.
The research will slow down because the costs will go higher with the new cities. But we must get CS from research. After the war with greece as we will have representation and GL the research can reach the same level as now on ~50% slider which can allow us to discover
our next techs - Machinary and Engineering(we will get at least MC from Alex). Then we will consider do we need more research or can take the victory with the current techs. If we need more power chemistry could be our next target IMO.

It is too early to shut down the research. We must go to Engineering at least as the AI will spam Knights after guilds and we wont have counter.

Of course. I didn´t mean that we will shut down research right after Civil Service. The library just comes too late IMO to be worth to substitute the production of units.

The monastery in Karak is needed for monks=exp in the new cities.


IMO it´s not worth it neither. Units are more important. We are in a phase where we have to hurry with conquering the world to keep our enemies weak. I prefer a one time promoted cat versus a longbow before a two times promoted cat versus muskets or even grenadiers.

The monastery in Karak has no hammers invested, so we can change our minds at this point.

We do have the shrine, so missionaries are for experience and cash ... if we are keeping cities for dom, I think that makes sense ... also, I can see us running specialists in Karak perhaps (although Athens better for that once we have it I suppose)

Library in WestBridge has always been controversial ... but since we just about have it, maybe working the two cottages and growing it, then the extra pop can work the hills again for troops later?

Keep Sparta and raze Corinth keeps the largest pop city, basically takes Alex out of the game (he does have Pharsalos hiding somewhere) once we get Athens.

Just consider whether Qin might show up with more galleys ... any reason we need to keep Corinth as a safe haven for our ships on that side of the island?

The barbs are researching CS, so we get it in 11 turns.

After Athens, and maybe taking one Qin city to get peace, we could plan to attack Japan along its south coast, keeping its northern cities intack to block Cyrus expansion. Keep some, put FP in Japan, then we have cities making troops right there, and we have connected the east army to the west front as well.

dV

as for whether we are headed for Conquest or Domination...I'll hold off my vote until I know whether or not we can hit domination by having our land, saladin's land, and the continent.
Maybe you could use yout turnset and do your trick and set domination alert to 50% to check how many land tiles are required for the win?

BTW, I suggest attack and keep Sparta this very turn, also load up all 4 galleys in Eastbridge this turn so they can disembark near Sparta the next one, no risk of loosing troops this way. Next raze Corinth, move to Athens.

I agree with C63 tactical plan for troop movement.

On the Library in Westbridge argument? Westbridge was supposed to be a troop producer. When I got the last save, it was working the farm, and cottages for 1 hammer per turn. I suggested that if we were working cottages, we should finish the Library to get maximum benefit. At this point I don't really care which way we go, but I think the confusion points to some potential problems. We need to be on the same page as a team, to avoid wasted builds/turns/tile use...etc.

Since Sparta is already reduced, we should take it, I think we raze it, and Corinth, before heading for Athens. I don't really like the position of either city. 1 city could work most of the tiles those 2 cities use, and eat up many more land squares at the same time.

We may need to push for Optics to make sure our galleys can be protected by Caravels.

I vote for moving to Athens ASAP (after Corinth), razing everything before that, and then evaluating how many cities we can support.

hm...only R1 wants to raze Sparta, I haven't seen the save yet, so I'll make my decision then(one guess what it'll be, considering I rarely raze cities :p), but I think I'll keep it.

I'll raze Corinth on the way to Athens, then take Athens.

I'll peace Qin if he ever decides to accept peace, I'll also see about bribing Cyrus into war against Toku.

I've already got my alerts set to tell me if we are within 50% of domination, perhaps it'll go off this time. Once it does, I'll try to do some calcs to see what we'd need to own to trigger domination.

I personally think, if we decide to go for domination, we don't necessarily need to keep every city we come to, because if we take out everyone except Qin, we can whip out settlers all over the world to get enough cities to cover the land(and likely still have enough pop)

Save uploaded...I played 11 turns to even us out again, but didn't do anything in the 11th turn...every unit still has all its moves.

Summary: Greece is no longer a threat. We have control of the Pyramids and Library. We are now in Bureaucracy and Police State. We are poised for a strike on Toku, but don't have anything to bribe Cyrus or Izzy with...we'd have to rely on them declaring just because they hate him. Machinery is currently 12 turns away @80% science. We are #1 in score again. Qin will make peace, but only for a ridiculous price. We are still not within 50% of domination, so I wasn't able to ma