Welcome to your C_IV SGOTM 5 Team Thread. Please use it for all internal team communication, turn logs and discussions. Subscribe to it to receive notifications, and do not visit the other team threads for this game until you have finished. Please also subscribe to the Maintenance Thread for this game, where teams and staff may post non-spoiler information of general interest.

The Game
You are Temujin, Leader of the Mongolian Hordes. You have tired of fighting the Barbarians, and so this time you have decided to join them instead. You will win a glorious victory in this Monarch game, of course, but you are teamed with the Barbarians, and you have to adapt to Barbarian assets and liabilities:


You have no starting techs.
The barbs are your friends, and are fighting on your team.
You will benefit from the Barbarian capability to explore the world in animal and human form.
You can research, but you will also learn techs that the Barbarians learn.
.... And you start off at war with everyone on the planet except the Barbarians. You can make peace with anyone.


The Objective
This Monarch difficulty game is on a Standard size, Gyathaar-special map, at Epic speed, against 7 rivals. All victory conditions are enabled, and the laurels for this contest will be awarded to the teams who achieve the earliest victory date in the game.

Versions
This game will be played in Civilization IV version 1.74, using special HoF Mod 1.74.SGOTM5.

Schedule
Start files for each team will be available on the SGOTM Progress and Results Page (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/submit/civ4sgotm_submission_list.php) at midnight, server local time, at the start of July 25.

I propose that you aim to complete this game in three months, that is by the end of October 2007.

Starting Position
Here's the starting position - click the image below to see a larger version.

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/civ4games/images/sgotm5_start_small.jpg (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/civ4games/images/sgotm5_start_large.jpg)

Map Parameters
Playable Leader/Civ - Temujin of Mongolia
Rivals - 7: China, Japan, India, Arabia, Spain, Persia and Greece
World size - Standard
Difficulty - Monarch
Landform - Special, sort of a fractal archipelago
Environment - Temperate climate, medium sea level
Game Speed - Epic
AI Aggression - Normal
Barbarians - Raging, and teamed with the Mongols
Permanent Alliances - Not Enabled
City Razing - Enabled

Notes

Please visit the Civ4 SGOTM reference thread (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=168439) to check out the rules and procedures to ensure that you are adequately prepared for this game.

Teams will compete for up to four awards - the Gold, Silver and Bronze Laurels for the fastest finishes, and the Wooden Spoons for the lowest scoring finisher. The number of awards will depend on the number of teams.

All teams must play the sponsored variant - awards will be given to teams who achieve victories in the least turns.

All saved game files uploaded to the server are parsed through software that extracts and archives data about your save, including reload count for each turn set.

Please enjoy the game :)

EDIT: Welcome everyone to:

SGOTM5 – Murky Waters – Rules & Directives

The following rules apply to all players in the Murky Waters SGOTM5 team (including Big Pig)

Ensure that you have read and understood the rules provided by the administrators (C-IV SGOTM Reference Thread) and try to follow any ongoing discussion at the SGOTM 05 Maintenance Thread

The next player shall post a ”got it” within 72 hours of the upload of the previous game. Else the next available player has the right to post the ”got it”. This is a rule in addition to the guideline in the C-IV SGOTM Reference Thread. To ensure a smooth handover, please post the ”got it” within 48 hours. The rest of the team needs the in between 24 hours to solve whos next. It’s also good practice to wait 24 hours after the ”got it” before you play. Else, the difference in time zones and busy work days may prevent players to post useful advice. We aim to play two turn sets / week.

No-one is forced to play a turn set. You don’t need to announce the reason for skipping a turn set. Any players can swap turn sets. Please post as quick as possible to reduce unneccesary confusion and delays.

Please use smilies and emotes in your posts as much as possible. Jokes, humour, sarcasm and offensive language can and will be misinterpreted. Remember that written text is a poor method to convey feelings. Several of us are not native to the English language (LC for example use American English). The differences in culture is also a source for misunderstanding. If you get upset by a post, please wait a few hours before you respond. With this in mind I would like to encourage all and everyone to trash talk to your hearts content, particularly when Gnejs (aka Mr UN) screws up.

Don’t be afraid to post things that may appear stupid or evident. Each player have strengths and weaknesses. There are numerous examples in the WSGOTM4 thread when the most simple rule has been unknown to several of us (such as the difference between peace treaty and cease fire). Don’t be afraid that other members will think you are stupid. As a captain, I am obliged to post the most stupid questions to ensure that the rest of the team appear brighter.

Issues where we cannot reach concensus is resolved by the active player. If you run into a situation where you need advice, please upload the save and let the rest of us take a look. Or post a quick request for advice. It’s better to delay the game a day than build the Globe Theatre in the wrong city :blush: Don’t be afraid making mistaks though. We all screw up once in a while (some of us more often than others though :shifty: )

Don’t promote units until they are close to action (unless the promotion increases movement). If you are unsure of suitable promotions, don’t hesitate to bring that up for discussion. We all have very different experiences from promotions, for example barrage/CR for cats.

Don’t play intoxicated (from alcohol, drugs or smoke). Don’t play when you are too tired. Or when you have your kids/wife screaming at you :lol:

Try to keep track of the diplomatic events each turn, and visit each city regularly. It’s mandatory to check cities that grow or have a border expansion. Remember that the number of happy people will change due to changes in war weariness (WW), gained/lost resources etc. Keep track of specialists. We don’t want to polute the great person pool. Please respect LC’s micro management plans. We brought him to tears last game when we whipped a city on the wrong turn :cry: .

Ensure that you have the autosave settings to 1. Please contact AlanH if your game crashes, even if you can repeat all your moves.

If you PM the team, please ensure everyone one receives a copy (including JERFit - the lurker)

Remember that a lot of players read what we post. Don't be rude or disrepectful to any player not on our team.

Try to run a test game or two before we start. Your experience may either confirm or contradict some one elses, and is therefore valuable.

The goal for Team Murky Waters is to end among the top three teams. The ambition is to grab the silver laurel and the vision is to win the gold.

EDIT: From C-IV SGOTM 05 Pre-Game Discussion Thread - post #150 (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=5655530&postcount=150): "We have an ambition to perform well and of course we want to win the gold laurel. We also want to have fun while playing and we want to learn more. It's more important to me to have fun than win the gold, and I think that it's the same for most players."

EDIT2: Forgot to mention: Ensure that your autosave config is set every turn. Don't forget to enable all HOF settings in case you lost them during a dual-install or whatever reason. And set the first-turn-setting to first turn = 1. This will reduce future confusion.

I suggest the following order of play. Any objections?

Big Pig
LowtherCastle
klarius
Mîtiu Ioan
Murky
jesusin
Gnejs
Erkon

AI characteristics
Alexander - Philosophical, Aggresive - Fishing, Hunting - Phalanx (replaces Spearman)
Cyrus - Expansive, Creative - Agriculture, Hunting - Immortal (replaces Chariot)
Isabella - Spiritual, Expansive - Fishing, Mysticism - Conquistador (replaces Knight)
Saladin - Philosophical, Spiritual - Mysticism, The Wheel - Camel Archer (replaces Knight)
Asoka - Spiritual, Organized - Mysticism, Mining - Fast Worker (replaces Worker)
Tokugawa - Aggressive, Organized - Fishing, The Wheel - Samurai (replaces Maceman)
Qin Shi Huang - Industrious, Financial - Agriculture, Mining - Cho-Ko-Nu (replaces Crossbowman)

Turn sets

Start End Player Start Noteworthy
Year Year Page Events
4000 BC - 3130 BC BP 1 Delayed city one turn. Mining => BW.
3130 BC - 2530 BC LC 14 No mistakes.
2530 BC - 1960 BC klarius 19 Cyrus lost Persepolis to barbarians (go, barbs, go). Astronomy not needed for conquest.
1960 BC - 1420 BC Mîtiu 24 WW is mounting leading to discussions of gifting city to Asoka for peace. Seville razed by barbs.
1420 BC - 1000 BC Murky 29 Guangzhou has been captured from Qin by the Barbarian State
1000 BC - 850 BC jesusin 32 Gifted Erkopper to Asoka for peace, recaptured, get peace. Gifted Erkopper to Toku for peace.
850 BC - 610 BC Gnejs 57 :eek: Barbs capture Pasargadae. Recaptured Erkopper but no peace.
610 BC - 385 BC Erkon 62 Barbs capture Satsuma.
385 BC - 250 BC BP 71
250 BC - 70 BC LC 75 Barbs capture Chengdu. We captured Kufah.
70 BC - 80 AD klarius 77 We capture Barcelona, Nanjing. Barbs capture Hangzhou.
80 AD - 260 AD Murky 84 We capture Madrid, Medina, Santiago, Khurasan, Shanghai
260 AD - 410 AD jesusin 90 We capture Beijing.
410 AD - 575 AD Erkon 92 We capture Xian, Tianjin, Osaka. Qin destroyed.
575 AD - 725 AD Gnejs 97 We capture Baghdad, Madras, Tokyo, Damascus, Basra, Najran, Nara.
725 AD - 860 AD BP 100 We capture Bangalore, Kyoto, Korinth, Kagoshima, Arbela, Salamanca, Cordoba, Thermopylae.
860 AD - 1010 AD LC 103 We capture Sparta, Susa, Seville, Delphi, Delhi, Pharsalos, Bombay, Edo. Toku destroyed.
1010 AD - 1112 AD klarius 105 We capture Mecca, Tarsus, Gordium, Toledo, Lahore, Calcutta, Bactra, Athens. Conquest victory.

Summary:

Cities captured: 43
Kill military land units (mainly archers): 137
Lost military land units (mainly keshiks): 75
Build military land unites: 121

Screenshots, dot maps, strategies etc:

Test game directives: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=5626695&postcount=101
Starting location : http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=156603&d=1185436582
3130 BC save (starting island mapped, rough world map) http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=5749732&postcount=266
LC's first dot map of starting continent: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=5751010&postcount=283
LC's map of starting continent 2800 BC: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=5753847&postcount=297
LC's second dot map of starting continent : http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=5756358&postcount=341
2530 BC save (water connections): http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=5758679&postcount=377
Erkon's first (superior) dot map of western part of starting continent: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=5761346&postcount=428
Erkon's first set of strategic maps: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=5787940&postcount=671
Erkon's second set of strategic maps: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=5787940&postcount=672
LC's first strategic map: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=5788150&postcount=676
Erkon's first war strategy plan: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=5788286&postcount=677
LC's first war strategy plan: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=5788508&postcount=679
Gnejs' first war strategy plan: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=5824607&postcount=979

Hello all! There we go. As this is my first SG, I don't know if it is ok to just post random thoughts like that.

I have played a practice game and it has not the implications talked about in the pregame thread, no spectacular WW in particular. It felt like a normal game (only with "free exploration"). I suggest that we play a normal game, not bothering too much about our alliance with the barbs. Maybe just prioritize BW a little bit more than a normal game, to give birth to barb axemen.

Now, the initial "war with everybody" is a great opportunity for us. The AI behaves very differently if it is at war. For example, if we are sure we must have a certain WW, then we shouldn't make peace to anyone, thus improving our chances of getting the wonder.

As for victory conditions, our goal is to be the fastest, so I think we should forget about anything but domination or conquest. I think domination could be faster in this type of map.

Checking in :)

@Jesusin:
In my test games, WW was a problem unless I got to peace with about half of the civs pretty fast.
And the chances to get peace are best if the barbs do something to them, so BW should really come early. Maybe best before the human barbs appear, which means bee-line to BW right away.

Unless Gyathaar changed it in the SDK :confused:, the AI civs are not really in war mode. They are only at war with the barbarian team, which doesn't influence their build preferences like being at war with a civ team.

In fact we can expect them to be very weakly defended and start to build more units only when we show up near their cities.

Checking in - and Welcome to the newcomers!

My test-game experiences were similar to jesusin's in so much that I never experienced significant WW. I suppose it all boils down to the map and how many barb battles there are.

Certainly conquest or dom are likely to provide the fastest victories - but I am sure Gyathaar has somehow set the map up so this will not be as easy as we would hope. It would not surprise me if we need Astro to reach any of the other civs for example - with all the early barb exploration, I guess we shall soon know.

How can we best use our barb alliance to our advantage? The idea of early BW (and IW?) suggested above seems a good one so the AI's are harried by barb axes and swords early. And careful use of the tech tree to ensure we get maximal 'free' techs will be useful too.

Tech speed was pretty slow in my games, so early pottery may be another important tech.

I would be very surprised if we share an island with an AI, so hopefully we can afford to take risks with our home defences initially

With all the early barb exploration, I guess we shall soon know.

Not my experience. The barb exploration is lousy. Even when they get galleys they prefer to just move around within a few tiles. The land units try to pillage and then suicide very soon.
Early work boat exploration would still be a good thing.


How can we best use our barb alliance to our advantage? The idea of early BW (and IW?) suggested above seems a good one so the AI's are harried by barb axes and swords early.

IW is coming to late IME. By that time so much land is taken that the barb units are down to a trickle. So if we want our friends to do some damage, it has to be with axes (and even that is just a crapshot on the RNG).


And careful use of the tech tree to ensure we get maximal 'free' techs will be useful too.

There isn't much what we can do there. We will get every tech eventually, but if we really need something urgently we have to research it. In the beginning the barbs will get us beakers in archery, fishing and meditation (it needs 3 teams to know a tech before the barbs get beakers @ 7 teams alive). Doing only one starting tech would probably maximize the gain, though if we have sea food, I probably would go fishing and BW. Going for AH (for the only visible resource), is taking to long IMO and doesn't optimize the barb feature.


I would be very surprised if we share an island with an AI, so hopefully we can afford to take risks with our home defences initially
I played both with and without a neighbour. Even having a neighbour, there is no reason to build a military unit before you need it for happiness. I never saw an AI military unit near my cities before I settled really close to my neighbour (still at war). And obviously one doesn't need a settler escort early.

Now, the initial "war with everybody" is a great opportunity for us. The AI behaves very differently if it is at war. For example, if we are sure we must have a certain WW, then we shouldn't make peace to anyone, thus improving our chances of getting the wonder.

Unless Gyathaar changed it in the SDK :confused:, the AI civs are not really in war mode. They are only at war with the barbarian team, which doesn't influence their build preferences like being at war with a civ team.

In fact we can expect them to be very weakly defended and start to build more units only when we show up near their cities.

If we do find ourselves in the situation that jesusin describes, then if we get a ceasefire and then redeclare war presumably this will get the AI civs in war mode? Whether we find ourselves in such a situation where this would be desirable remains to be seen!

If we do find ourselves in the situation that jesusin describes, then if we get a ceasefire and then redeclare war presumably this will get the AI civs in war mode?
That doesn't change anything.
The AI civs ignore the barbarian teams in all war plan and area strategy considerations. They will only use their pretty unfocused anti-barb strategies.
And BTW they also don't know that they met the human player, which in the standard game leads to one more defender needed per city (so the standard garrison will be only 1 unit per outlying city instead of 2 normally).
If more units are available they will have more in garrison, but if they don't have a war ongoing (or preparing) there will be not many spare units produced.

Hi guys!

Well, klarius, you are providing us with some invaluable info on this bizarre scenario. We will have to be very careful to keep these game characteristics in mind and not relapse into "normal" game mode.

EDIT:
1. How much do barb tiles count toward domination?
2. When do barbs first appear?
3. When do barb cities first appear?

Our inadequate strategizing, imo, has dropped us from gold to silver in the last two SGs. Noteworthy is our inability to work late/end game factors into our strategy. In SG4, for example, we overlooked how devastating WW would be to G after we succeeded in “gifting” him ~10 Trojan WW Horses (a.k.a. cities). More foresighted would have been to leave/guard territory close to his capital for him to REX himself and focus our early attention on REXing/capturing GK territories (Yes, we did have enough info early on to think this way—no hindsight required). My point is not that WW is important, but rather that

Our strategy needs to consider ALL game factors that might come into play at any point before the end.For example:

War weariness
Maintenance costs
Financing our land troops
Financing a galley(galleon) chain
Conquering an advanced nation in the end-game
Planning, coordinating, and financing multi-pronged offensives
Barb interference

We should avoid discussion of SGOTM4 in this thread until both the MW and the Peanut games have completed.....

2. When do barbs first appear?

From your test game, barb units (ie not animals) appear in 2620BC. If BW is known, the barbs can generate axemen from this date (although there is no guarantee - I presume there is an RNG that determines whether a barb unit will be a warrior, an archer or an axe?).

Getting BW too early (e.g. 3200BC) will not impact on this - but if we decide it is good strategy to have barb axemen wandering around terrorising the AI then we should aim to have BW by 2620BC

We should avoid discussion of SGOTM4 in this thread until both the MW and the Peanut games have completed.....Fair enough. I was going on the notion that Peanut had kind of given up, but I guess that's not official yet. Anyway, if you can use my ideas above to get gold, klarius, go for it... ;) (but no replays...)

1. How much do barb tiles count toward domination?
If Gyathaar doesn't bent the rules the barb tiles count full. It's a team (like permanent alliance or MP team) not a vassal (which doesn't exist in vanilla)

2. When do barbs first appear?
There need to be 2 conditions fulfilled. First 37 turn passed (monarch 25 turns X 1.5 factor for epic). Second there need to be a total for 3/2 X the number of civs cities on the map (so an average of 1.5 cities per civ). In my tests the second condition came later, so it was between 40 and 45 turns.
The barbs will be equal probability for all units allowed for the barbs at this time. We will get archery after 35 turns from the automatic barb science. So it will be half warriors half archers if we didn't learn BW, or 1/3 warriors, archers and axes if we did.
The number of barbs spawning per turn is 1/4 of the needed barbs (according to unowned tiles - already existing) + 1. That means after around 6 turns they will be at full strength.

Edit: And don't forget we get a research penalty of 50% for being teamed. Don't expect that we can research BW and another tech before barbs appear.

3. When do barb cities first appear?
Again twofold. 45 turns and 2 cities per civ on average.
Note, barb cities may turn out to be a PITA. We cannot capture them and cannot prevent them spawning by fog busting. And we cannot trade with the barbs. So if a city spawns near resources they are lost to us.

But generally we shouldn't think too much of the barbs. They may add a few percent to a domination victory and may slow down the AIs a bit in the beginning. But the real work we have to do ourselves. And monarch AI handicapped in their defense should be easy enough to handle.
If we shouldn't need astronomy, research is no big issue. Galleys, axes, swords and cats should get us pretty far. Our UU doesn't really help a lot, if this is really something like an archipelago.

"PITA"? I got the drift, but what does that abbreviation mean?

"PITA"? I got the drift, but what does that abbreviation mean?

I'm surprised you don't know that one LC - you must be called it frequently :)

Edit: And don't forget we get a research penalty of 50% for being teamed. Don't expect that we can research BW and another tech before barbs appear.

Ouch! That is important information. So we really need to maximise our commerce income, at least until Construction (and possibly until Astro).

Research

For early warring, we need Fishing>Sailing and Mining> BW.
For coins we need Fishing(or agri)>Wheel>Pottery.
For cats we need ...>Writing>Maths>(Masonry)>Construction.
All of this, but Constr, is on the path to Astro.
We'll probably need IW/swords too.
For Astro we would probably go Fishing(or agri)>Wheel>Pottery>Writing first...which puts us in a quandary.
Oracle slingshot should be easy, but totally unnecessary if we don't need Astro.


Thoughts on Early Warfare

If we settle on coastal river, we can connect copper w/o roads (Wheel) if copper is on river or coast.
Raging barbs usually means eventually triple-promoted archers in AI cities. Hard to beat w/o cats and swords.
Qin is financial and industrious. Kill him early if possible. Kill him dead.

Someone needs to test whether we can get the circumnavigation bonus with Gyathaar's mod (see Maintenance thread).

Edit: And don't forget we get a research penalty of 50% for being teamed. Don't expect that we can research BW and another tech before barbs appear.Wtf? How can I forget it if I never knew it...So that means if our capital is allocating 10:commerce: to research, we only do 5:science: per turn research? That is truly a big piece of PITA.

Sounds like we need to seriously think about whether to beeline BW or Pottery first.

I've never played a team game so any info, threads, etc. on that would be greatly appreciated.

The 50% penalty isn't quite as bad. It means the research cost is 50% higher (so equivalent to -33% research). Still we'll need around 40 turns for a BW beeline.

We don't know if we need sailing for our first war, so that's not urgent before we know more. And fishing is one of the techs the barbs will gain already beakers from the very beginning (3 civs start with fishing; with 7 civs it's 1% when 3 know it, 2% when 5 and 3% when all). So if we don't find seafood right away I would rather collect the free beakers.

The problem with pottery is that we miss at least 2 prerequisites (starting techs). And these will be soon researched by the AI, so also there we will soon get free beakers. Also when more people know it we get extra beakers for that fact alone when we research it.

Edit:
Just saw the circumnavigation question. Gyathaar wrote (pre-game thread) that he didn't fix it. So no bonus for us.

We need to take our first turn to be able to discuss our tech strategy in detail, I guess. For the scout I see these options:

S -- jungle is probably useless
W, SW -- again, jungle probably useless.
W, W -- may discover agri products, hills
W NW -- may discover agri products, hills
NW, NW -- may discover seafood (if there's coast NW, NW, NW)
Settler:

NW -- max. exposure of coastal tiles, but maybe bad spot to settle
W -- some exposure of coast and W, maybe good spot to settle
SW SW/W/NW for maximum exposure of land tiles.

So we have a choice of exposing coastal tiles or land tiles. What would be better for us, Fishing or Agriculture (or AH)?

If we settle on coastal river, we can connect copper w/o roads (Wheel) if copper is on river or coast.

Raging barbs usually means eventually triple-promoted archers in AI cities. Hard to beat w/o cats and swords.


Copper on coast is not enough, is it? It has to be on river, or roaded to a river or to a city on the coast... yes/no?

We have two scenarios: either we're isolate or we're not. In case we're isolated, I presume we'll go for the standard commerce focus start. If we have company, we can either rush them before cats or tech to cats and then kill'em all. Are there any other options?

Gnejs has mentioned the Stonehenge. Will that enable barb cities to expand their cultural borders?

My experience in similar games is that we will need cats to dominate (and conquer). And to get to construction as quick as possible, we can't expand very fast, and we need cottages.

It is also vital to know if we can dominate without galleons, so an exploration workboat or two is needed early on. If we have enough tiles reachable from our continent, I suggest that we stop research at construction/horseback riding/bronze working and use the excess funds to fuel our army of death.

Copper on coast is not enough, is it? It has to be on river, or roaded to a river or to a city on the coast... yes/no?Well, we could settle on the copper, if we decided it would give us a significant advantage, right?

Tell Gnejs to return home from the land of the midnight beer.

EDIT: I like IW better than HBR. Swords are devastating and can even handle LBMS, Xbows. Keshiks are shik.

NW, NW -- may discover seafood (if there's coast NW, NW, NW)

So we have a choice of exposing coastal tiles or land tiles. What would be better for us, Fishing or Agriculture (or AH)?

The tile NW, NW, NW of scout is probably water. So, with NW-NW with scout we'll see if there are any nice resources 3 tiles away from settler. If not, are there any reasons not to settle on starting spot?

Starting spot looks risky to me. No food. No hammers. (AH will take two eons to research and it's not on our critical path, unless of course we want to build some Keshitks.:)) The starting spot could have some fat-cross agri tiles to the W or some seafood up topside. I'd almost rather go NW NW with the scout, look around, then burn a turn, if needed, SW with the settler and decide whether to move back NW or go somewhere else.

Check it: the scout reveal those western tiles, so we'd at least know if there's agri W or seafood NW. You're right.

Gnejs has mentioned the Stonehenge. Will that enable barb cities to expand their cultural borders?

Wonders work for the whole team, so yes Stonehenge will expand barb borders. But it may also may mean that barb cities steal resources from us.

Wonders work for the whole team, so yes Stonehenge will expand barb borders. But it may also may mean that barb cities steal resources from us.Of course, there's a 87.5% chance AIs will be the ones to lose resources...;)

I assume Barb cities also get cultural defense increases with expanded borders, right?

To me it's inconceivable that building a wonder goes hand in hand with fastest conquest or domination. OTOH, if Warmonger Gnejs thought of it, there might be something to it...

Of course, there's a 87.5% chance AIs will be the ones to lose resources...;)

Barb cities cannot spawn on tiles visible to the AI. But they can spawn in our visibility. And I had the case in a test game that I got a barb city on the ivory on my island. The AIs got rid of barb cities in their vicinity sooner or later, but I couldn't do anything about this city.

I assume Barb cities also get cultural defense increases with expanded borders, right?

Sure, but that still doesn't help forever against the 40% advantage the Ais get against barbs.

We can consider to build Stonehenge as it is so cheap. But it will not help the barb defense much. It is somewhat interesting, if there are uninhabited islands the barbs can keep for them alone, where they then can get a lot of tiles.

Tech Path
I think we have some serious testing questions here.

Is it worth it to bee-line BW to get barb axes out there pillaging?
How soon do we start our first invasion if we go Fishing>Mng>BW>Sailing?
How soon can we invade if we go to Writing and build a library first first?

I don't think we can decide on the tech path before we know more about our land.
If our capital is as poor as it looks now, I would really go towards BW. Not only for the barbs, but also to chop or pop-rush settlers.
If we have a water resource, we might put priority on fishing. If there is corn or wheat, agriculture might pay off.

After 5 turns elapsed animals appear. Then we should soon know if we have a neighbour on the same landmass.
If yes, BW and axerush is the way to go. If no, we have first to find a passage to our first victim.

There seems a barb team discount/accumulated bulbs on early techs - have you checked how many accumulated bulbs do you already have in Agri, for instance?@klarius: Is there any truth to this? In other words, does the cost of a tech become gradually cheaper for us as the barbs accumulate beakers on that tech even if we're not researching it? Or is our only discount based on how many AIs know it and free for us whne the barbs learn it?

@klarius: Is there any truth to this? In other words, does the cost of a tech become gradually cheaper for us as the barbs accumulate beakers on that tech even if we're not researching it? Or is our only discount based on how many AIs know it and free for us whne the barbs learn it?
It is true. You can see the effect for yourself in the test games. Agriculture (say) will start off at 10 turns to research - but 15 turns later it will be only 2turns to research even though neither us or the barbs have been actively researching it

As posted earlier if 3 or more AI know a tech then the barb team will get beakers towards it each turn even if neither we or the barbs are actively researching the tech

Are we in a hurry to kill of the first AI? I've tried to rush the AI in the last two W/GOTM and my experience is that the unit upkeep kills the economy so quick that the research capability dwindles to zero before vital techs are learned. If we plan to tech to construction, I don't think it's wise to rush the nearest AI. It's better to focus on building infrastructure and improve the lands and build cottages. Perhaps send a worker or two to the nearest barb city and improve the land there.

As soon as we get the techs we need, we shut down and capture/expand as quick as we can. If we predict that the AI will have longbowmen, then we need cats. Else I think swordsmen & keshiks will do.

If we plan to move the settler, there is no need to move the scout NW-NW. Instead we can go W-SW or W-W. With the settler move to NW, we will reveal a lot of tiles.

Post 3 updated:

I suggest the following order of play. Any objections?

LowtherCastle
klarius
Mîtiu Ioan
Murky
jesusin
Erkon
Gnejs
Big Pig

Are we in a hurry to kill of the first AI? I've tried to rush the AI in the last two W/GOTM and my experience is that the unit upkeep kills the economy so quick that the research capability dwindles to zero before vital techs are learned. If we plan to tech to construction, I don't think it's wise to rush the nearest AI. It's better to focus on building infrastructure and improve the lands and build cottages. Perhaps send a worker or two to the nearest barb city and improve the land there. Btw, I wasn't able to improve Barb land other than build roads.

As soon as we get the techs we need, we shut down and capture/expand as quick as we can. If we predict that the AI will have longbowmen, then we need cats. Else I think swordsmen & keshiks will do. I agree, but that's the catch, do we need Construction? I think we almost surely do, because archipelago conquest takes longer than pangea.

If we plan to move the settler, there is no need to move the scout NW-NW. Instead we can go W-SW or W-W. With the settler move to NW, we will reveal a lot of tiles.If scout goes NW NW, then we might immediately know if settling in place or 1 tile W is good. If Settler goes NW (not river tile I'm guessing) then he has to go S and settle on T3 to be on the river or SW or SE to settle on T2.

There are a few good choices. Kind of depends on whether we're willing to settle on T3 or not.

EDIT: Personally, I like T1: Settler NW, if we decide Fishing is our preferred first tech. We might get 2 seafoods in our fat cross, who knows.

Post 3 updated:

I suggest the following order of play. Any objections?

LowtherCastle
klarius
Mîtiu Ioan
Murky
jesusin
Erkon
Gnejs
Big PigI was first, BP last, in the previous game. Not fair to BP.

What we can test in advance

Given: We cannot test for a better place to settle.
Knowing all the AIs, our 50% research penalty and our barb beaker bonus, we can get a very good idea whether any tech path(s) are significantly cheaper.

My hunch is that Writing does not get much cheaper between T40 and T80, but that BW does.

This could mean that beeling Writing is like using Alphabet to get a lot of cheap techs--we research Writing while others research everything else for us.

To generalize the above principle: Our optimal research path beelines to our tech goal following the least-travelled path. This is similar to the Alphabet tech-trading strategy, except that we don't prioritize techs for trade value (e.g., Paper), only techs on our Critical Path (either >Construction or >Astro).

So the testing question is: What is optimum?
The shortest path to Writing (= Agri>AH>Wtg), which also enables what we know we have (farmland and pigs).
The shortest Fishing path to Writing (= Fish>Wheel>Pottery>Wtg), enables WBs for nets and exploration and opens up Sailing.
The shortest path to warring (= Fish>Mng>BW>Sail; maybe >Wheel)
The agricultural path to warring (= Agri>Mng>BW>Fish>Sail; maybe Wheel)

Ok, try to klarify barb research:

The barb team (in other words we) gain

floor((c * floor ( ( 3*nw ) / na))/ 100)

c = cost of tech
nw = number of teams with tech
na = number teams alive (not counting us)

beakers per turn on every tech.

That means when na=7
1% if 3 teams have the tech
2% if 5 teams have the tech
3% if 7 teams have the tech

all percentages are rounded down. So e.g. 1 beaker/turn for fishing in the beginning (3 civs know it = 1%; cost around 120)

It hasn't anything to do with what we or the barbs research.
As monarch AI start all with archery we get 3% of the cost of archery every turn and will learn it after 35 turns (because of rounding down). We will learn it even w/o having the prerequisite hunting and by that unable to research it.

BTW killing one AI would be nice, as already then it would be only 2 AIs with the tech necessary to get beakers.

The longer we don't research techs known to the AIs the more beakers we get for free. As the starting techs get researched pretty quickly, we should restrict ourselves to only research those we absolutely need.

The second benefit of waiting is that when we finally research a tech (we will not wait for all to come for free) we get a bonus on our research if more civs know it already.

You can see the beakers the team gains by just going into the tech adviser and hover over the techs. Even after one turn you will see that we have gained beakers in fishing, mysticism and archery, even if we research something else.
BTW, that's the team beakers (also in normal games for PA or MP teams) what you see here. When the barbs start to research, their measly beakers will also get added there immediately.

If scout goes NW NW, then we might immediately know if settling in place or 1 tile W is good. Exactly!If Settler goes NW (not river tile I'm guessing) then he has to go S and settle on T3 to be on the river or SW or SE to settle on T2.

There are a few good choices. Kind of depends on whether we're willing to settle on T3 or not.I don't think settling on turn 3 would be a disaster on epic if we can find a good site. But the NW NW initial scout move will help determine if settling on site is a good option (altho' it won't see the coast tiles to the N)

PS. Our workers can build improvements in barb city squares. And for that matter, our GEs can build wonders in barb cities if we so desire (can't imagine we would tho'....)

How does the 50% team penalty affect c = cost of tech? (In other words, what does the equation look like including that penalty?)

Are you saying that any research the Barb is doing is accumulating beakers for us?

I suggest the following order of play. Any objections?

LowtherCastle
klarius
Mîtiu Ioan
Murky
jesusin
Erkon
Gnejs
Big Pig
I think traditionally the captain goes last to clear up everyone's messes ;)

Unless, you feel you need Gnejs and I to clean up your mistakes that is......

I think we are in a hurry not only to kill one AI, but to kill all :). It's only monarch and the AIs are definitely hampered by this special setup. Going slow and building a nice empire will not cut it. Rather burn down bad cities and let the barbs spawn new cities.

I think we are in a hurry not only to kill one AI, but to kill all :). It's only monarch and the AIs are definitely hampered by this special setup. Going slow and building a nice empire will not cut it. Rather burn down bad cities and let the barbs spawn new cities.I definitely agree. No builder mentality allowed. My main concern is not city maintenance so much as military maintenance and being able to reach enough AIs in time to conquer or dominate with what we do research.

One thing for sure: the earlier we war, the easier to conquer.

(I'd just hate to beeline BW + Sailing and find out the Gold winners beelined Writing and got BW for almost free ALMOST AS FAST AS WE DID.)

I think we are in a hurry not only to kill one AI, but to kill all :). It's only monarch and the AIs are definitely hampered by this special setup. Going slow and building a nice empire will not cut it. Rather burn down bad cities and let the barbs spawn new cities.
Forgive my ignorance, but could you spell out the ways the AI is hampered by the set-up. Some I can work out for myself (faster appearance of barb axemen, us not being pillaged allowing greater initial growth than the AI etc) but I want to make sure I am not missing anything.

Understanding the extra advantages we have over the AI in this set-up will help us in coming up with winning strategies

Beaker cost:
You will just see when you look into the tech adviser. E.g. fishing is shown as 117 beakers necessary. Normally it would be 78 for a monarch, epic, standard game.

About the AI:
The AI doesn't know that they are at war with us. So their build preferences are as if they were at peace. They will see no reason to build any attackers besides their standard reserves (which is something like 1-2 units per area).

They don't know that they are in contact with the human. Contact with human does increase the required garrison by 1 in the normal game and the AI always builds a defender if a city doesn't have the required garrison.
As long as they have other things to build (and there are no threats at the gates of city), they will be happy to have one defender in every city below size 9 (2 in the capital).

If we make peace with them, they will not plan a new war against us. By that they will also not declare (unless provoked by us rejecting a demand). They will also not ask other AIs to help if they are attacked by us.

A lot of small things, which should make the game easier than standard monarch, so I think one has to go really fast if one wants to get near any laurels.

Please check out the changes in the patch. I've tried to highlight the most interesting stuff, but check the readme for all details.



First strike combat bug fix - is this of importance?
Fixed pop-rush rounding bug - is this of importance?

Changes

less hammers from chops the farther away from a city...
reduced hammer yield from forest chops to 20…
Mathematics increases forest chop yields by +50%...
Representation: +2 happy in X biggest cities
Hereditary Rule: Low Upkeep
Slaver: Low Upkeep
firepower is now average of curr and max strength...
Great person point generation from Wonders continues after Wonder has become obsolete

Fixes

Fixed rush production per population for game speeds other than normal

Additions

unit cycling optimization...

None of any concern. :)

The stuff below "changes" are 1.61 patch changes (it's a cumulative patch)..

The red stuff was anyways already fixed in the HoF mod.

For what it's worth...

Using klarius' formula:

Tech----------3/7 AIs------5/7-------all
----------------------------------------
Mng/Myst-----1:science:/t-------3:science:/t-----5:science:/t
Agri/Wheel----2:science:/t-------4:science:/t-----6:science:/t
Fish/Htg------1:science:/t-------2:science:/t-----4:science:/t

1. Waiting for the 4th and 5th AIs pays off more with Mining than with Fishing.
2. Another way of looking at it is that waiting for 3 AIs to know Mining is undervalued.

Any idea what the Barbs start out researching and their research path in general?

Ok, maybe here's an example of what I'm talking about about:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=156473&d=1185246732

Here you see that at 1960BC they've evidently researched Hunting>AH>Fishing>BW. Note the cost of Sailing. It's still full price. Now researching BW before Sailing gives you time to settle your city and build the copper mine, IF the copper is on your island. If it's not, BW enables you to poprush the sailboat when you finish Sailing. Is that faster than Sailing first and then reearching a discounted BW? Who knows (without some testing)???

What the barbs research is pretty irrelevant. They will have their research slider @ 0%, because they cannot pay their maintenance (at least this was so every time I looked; look into the city screen of a barb city to see their slider settings). So they gain exactly 1 beaker/turn.
But generally every AI team member will help the research of their team mates whenever they chose a new research. So unless we change horses in the midst of a research they will research the same we research.

If you're talking about where the barbs receive the most beakers for free, that's complicated.
There are literally hundreds of weight factors the different AIs apply to decide what to research. And on top of this is a big random number. But with three AI having mysticism there is a big chance that these three go for a religion first and by that don't add anything useful.
The worker techs are largely influenced by the land around their capital, so there's no way to predict what they do first.
BW may take a long time, if they are isolated or at least don't plan wars. Or it may be pretty quick, if all are together and happily plan backstabbing each other.

I still think that we shouldn't try to rely to much on this stuff. My take is:
First find out if we need fishing or agriculture for the capital. If yes do this, if no do mining for now.
When we get the animal intelligence reevaluate.
Take into account neighbours (->BW), if any.
Better city locations than capital (I would then still go for BW to get out settlers quickly).
Small island w/o any good locations (fishing->sailing).

BTW, I don't think writing w/o BW helps us a lot. It will take forever to build a library by hand in the hammer poor region we see up to now. And in the one test I did BW took more than 110 turns to come for free.

LC, are your directives of how to make a test game up to date?

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=5626695&postcount=101

I also noticed that there's one extra AI compared to the usual setting for standard map size. This means that, unless we're isolated, the closest AI is not that far away. And that we need to build a warrior instead of worker, yes?

I also noticed that there's one extra AI compared to the usual setting for standard map size. This means that, unless we're isolated, the closest AI is not that far away. And that we need to build a warrior instead of worker, yes?
Not if the AI doesn't know it is at war with us.

No we don't need to build a warrior. Our animal friends will distract our neighbours for a long time. And even if they knew they are at war with us , they wouldn't know where we are, while we will soon know where their units are.

One thing that there are no misunderstandings:
While the civ AI doesn't know that they are at war with us (and cannot plan war by that), the unit AI knows that we are an enemy. So if a unit stumbles upon us by accident they will attack, if they have good enough chances.
And they will wait and build a stack with other roaming units (like the AI does with barb cities), at bad chances. So we are not completely save, but there will be no coordinated attack (though a bit of bad RNG can still get us in trouble).

LC, are your directives of how to make a test game up to date?I haven't tried them with the new mod, but incorporating the new mod would be the only addition I know of. Now one thing I don't know is whether the new mod also requires that new patch. I supppose it does.

BTW, I don't think writing w/o BW helps us a lot. It will take forever to build a library by hand in the hammer poor region we see up to now. And in the one test I did BW took more than 110 turns to come for free.All good info, thanks.

What I'm looking at is not so much getting BW for free. It's more about the consideration that our research pace is going to be slowed by the 50% penalty and lack of the Alphabet leap-frog. So beelining Wtg is more about how to minimize our entire Tech Path. Building a library is just one part of that, as you have described. BW>Wtg seems like full price whereas Wtg>BW seems heavily discounted.

Normally, I would automatically go BW first for the fast conquest, but on this map not only do we have the 50% penalty and no-tech start, but also, in all likelihood, we need Sailing as well to attack our first AI. Lacking a food tech, BW only really gets us 1 settler through chopping and poprushing. Is that what you're looking at?

With only one settler built, we could possibly whip up an Axe rush, but it would only really pay off, I think, if it netted us a couple prize cities close enough to our capital to be affordable.

That said, I guess I agree with you that this discussion heavily depends on what our scout reveals for our capital. I still think that either now or that point we show run some test games, before playing on, to determine whether going BW is significantly slower, tech-wise, than focusing on cottages and/or Wtg first.

The Russian teams run numerous test early on, as I assume you've noticed.

The start files are now available!

Clearly we need to get some more info on our locale by moving the scout to enable better planning on settling, initial techs etc. 1NW is the best first move - then a second 1NW (to reveal the NW sea tiles and the western land tiles / hills) seems optimal unless the scouts first MP reveals something interesting to the west.

Once we have done that our discussions on techs and settling will (hopefully) have more relevence

Check in right now - and prepared to read the 4-pages disscusion ! :)

Regards

I'm happy to let someone make the scout move and then upload. But first we need to settle the turn set order. I'm fine with putting myself last. I prefer to stay next to Gnejs since that will enable us to sort out the small details by phone. Assuming we play a turn set twice a week, we'll probably have made a full circle at the end of August. We're not in a hurry, so it may take longer, but if anyone is planning a vacation in the next week or two, I need to know (probably you have stated it somewhere else, and I've missed it :))

So, if you want to change your position in the list, please tell me where you want to be inserted. BP, shall I squeeze you between Mîtiu and Murky?

Assuming we play a turn set twice a week, we'll probably have made a full circle at the end of August. We're not in a hurry, so it may take longer, but if anyone is planning a vacation in the next week or two, I need to know (probably you have stated it somewhere else, and I've missed it :))

I am away for 10 days from next Thu (Aug 2) so stick me somewhere so my turnset falls before or after then

Although we are not in a hurry, I am worried with a large team that it will get boring if everyone only plays 1 turnset per month, and that will cause people to lose interest. Consequently I think it is important that you are strict about timing of 'got its' and play (while still making sure that there has been adequate pre-turnset discussion)

I am away for 10 days from next Thu (Aug 2) so stick me somewhere so my turnset falls before or after then

Although we are not in a hurry, I am worried with a large team that it will get boring if everyone only plays 1 turnset per month, and that will cause people to lose interest. Consequently I think it is important that you are strict about timing of 'got its' and play (while still making sure that there has been adequate pre-turnset discussion)

I've updated post#2 with what I think are suitable rules & directives. Let me know if anyone has objections/questions/suggestions.

We could have a rule for when the save must be uploaded, but I'm a little bit worried that such a rule will do more harm than good. I think it's realistic to anticipate that a turn set is played every three days on average. You are correct that we/I need a bit discipline to ensure a steady pace and a fun game. We definately need a new turn set to start no later than 72 hours after the previous ended, which I hope is evident in post #2. I will enforce the got-it rule.

The power is definitely going to the boy's head. I always fondly imagined the Swedes were laid-back liberal types but there is certainly a dose of the Teutonic or Swiss about our new Captain and his 'Rules and Directives' :) (obligatory emoticon as per Rule 4, subsection 5.3, para 12)
What ever happened to the promised welcome message????

I think it is important to clarify (as MW life president ;) ) that the number one goal (or "directive") of team MW is to have a fun and enjoyable SGOTM experience - winning a laurel will just make it all the more fun :cool:

PS. Don't forget to wait a couple of hours to respond to this Erkon as per Diective #4 :p

I've updated post#3:
========================
I suggest the following order of play. Any objections?

Big Pig
LowtherCastle
klarius
Mîtiu Ioan
Murky
jesusin
Gnejs
Erkon
========================

As soon as we all have agreed on the first move with the scout (current consensus is NW-NW), I think BP should do it and upload.

Other viable moves is NW-SW and NW-W.

I think our lack of hills is the largest problem. Perhaps we should find another site (far west) for our capital? We can also move the settler NW and the scout NW-SW?

I have no problem with this new order of play.

However I have one BIG question before any other : which type of victory do you belive will be the most quick to obtain ?
Conquest because possible Diplomatic Victory is almost impossible on that special settings ? :rolleyes:

Regards

I have no problem with this new order of play.

However I have one BIG question before any other : which type of victory do you belive will be the most quick to obtain ?
Conquest because possible Diplomatic Victory is almost impossible on that special settings ? :rolleyes:

Regards

I don't know if conquest or domination will be the fastest. I plan to play a test game tonight to get a better feeling of the distance involved and the number of tiles that are needed.

The risk with going for conquest is that we may need astronomy. We will know more when the animals appear.

We need to identify the difference in starting strategy for conquest vs domination. Is there any?

Do not forget, to download the SGOTM save you will need:
1. Patch 1.73
This requires you to either install Beyond the Sword or to patch from the advanced option in the Vanilla Civ start-up menu. If you choose the second option you may need to update your DirectX version (see my post in the New Patches thread in the GOTM forum)
2. Gyathaar's special HoF mod
Download it from the maintainence thread into your Mods folder

@Erkon: shall I get the scout move done? We have been discussing options for 48h now, so if anyone had completely contradictory views they would have been aired by now. That way we can make a decent attempt at mimicking the starting position for our test games.

I plan (as posted earlier) to move 1NW and I will post a screenshot. Unless this reveals (say) a gold hill further W/SW, I would then plan to move the scout a further NW.

@Erkon: shall I get the scout move done? We have been discussing options for 48h now, so if anyone had completely contradictory views they would have been aired by now. That way we can make a decent attempt at mimicking the starting position for our test games.

I plan (as posted earlier) to move 1NW and I will post a screenshot. Unless this reveals (say) a gold hill further W/SW, I would then plan to move the scout a further NW.

BP, go ahead with 1NW and post the screenshot. The second move depends on if we want to move the settler so please wait for 200 posts of discussion before moving the second step :lol:

Well, that's interesting!!!!! The scout revealed.......
















a grassland tile :lol:
156539
None of the three tiles in the western FOW are hills (EDIT: on further fog-gazing, all the tiles appear to be flat unwooded grassland). And the line of jungle continues in the south FOW tiles.
I await further discussion

Just do the second NW move. Doesn't look like we can reveal anything really interesting and we should know at least what we lose if we move the settler.
I anyway don't think that there is a great site anywhere near. What would be the point to put us where we are :crazyeye:.

Well, I hope you all like bananas:
156543

I can't upload the save game as it is still 4000Bc, so I've attached it below:
156544

It looks as if we have 2 options:

1. Settle on the spot, T1. This is not a great location unless there is seafood in the 2 coastal FOW tiles to the N of the island. However farming the banana and mining the pigs gives reasonable growth and production until AH and Calendar comes along

2. Delay settling 1 turn to look for a better spot (e.g. 2W). If we move 1SW with the settler on T1, and then 1W, 1NE with the scout on turn 2, all the remaining grassland and coastal tiles north of the jungle will be revealed, allowing the settler to move and settle on T2. It loses a turn but allows us to choose the best site in the vicinity (which may still be where we started)

I vote for settle on place. :)
Not a extraodinary location - but a playable one.

Regards all

I would also settle in place. Even some seafood in the west wouldn't make this a really great site. So just take what we have.

I would probably cast my vote for delaying 1 turn for the option of settling 2W if western seafood is revealed. It is a gamble of course - if we lose, then we are 1 turn behind everybody else, but if we win we should be in a stronger starting position.

If we settle in spot and there is no northern seafood then it seems we will have to research Agr>Mining>BW to get a reasonable growth rate.

With seafood, we can research Fish>Mining>BW. Fishing is ~2/3 cheaper in beakers than Agr and will provide either 1:food: or 1 :commerce: per turn yield more than a farm on the bananas. So if (and it is a big if) there is a good chance of finding seafood to the west, then I think we should take it

If there is seafood in the west, but not in the north, Gyathaar messed up big time, IMO.
I think better of him, at least up to now :).

And I think we shouldn't go agriculture first. Mining the pigs is the only chance for a decent production tile.

If there is seafood in the west, but not in the north, Gyathaar messed up big time, IMO. No more so than putting stone 3 or 4 squares north of the starting position in SGOTM3
I think better of him, at least up to now :).

And I think we shouldn't go agriculture first. Mining the pigs is the only chance for a decent production tile.
I'm not sure what we will be building with the production. Isn't the growth from the farmed bananas more important initially than the extra hammers from the pig-mine, especially if we plan on early BW (edit: and slavery)? Also, having Agr gives our worker something to do while we are teching mining>BW.

What about moving settler 1NW? Another three sea tiles we be inside the fat cross. We can then move the scout SW-S next turn and if there are any sea resources there, we can still move the settler 1SE and settle.

The jungle to the south indicates that there's no suitable second site nearby. And if there's no second site, we do we need to build a settler?

What about agr->pottery->AH? We could then focus on commerce with the capital?

What about moving settler 1NW? Another three sea tiles we be inside the fat cross. We can then move the scout SW-S next turn and if there are any sea resources there, we can still move the settler 1SE and settle.
Yep - that's probably a better move, if we decide to gamble and delay a turn in settling in the hope of getting some fishies

What about agr->pottery->AH? We could then focus on commerce with the capital?Its a possibility - but it means we delay getting the production potential of slavery and forest chops (plus no barb axemen to strike terror into the hearts of our enemies....)

Our choices for settling are:

T1: In place

If we want to defog all relevant tiles, we move T1: settler NW; T2: scout SW S, and we can settle (from current location):

T2: In place (i.e., move settler back), NW or 2W
T3: W

If we want to gamble on seafood on any of the 4 unrevealed, nearby tiles, we can go Settler T1 W, and settle:

T2: W

Advantages of various locations, not including fogged fat cross:

All sites include bananas and pigs
In place: 6 river/cottage (12 land tiles); +3:food: in fat cross; 3 chops; 2 fogged coastals; +2:health:; dyes.
NW.......: 5 river/cottage ( 8 land tiles); +3:food: in fat cross; 2 chops; 6 fogged coastals/sea; +0:health:.
W.........: 6 river/cottage (12 land tiles); +3:food: immediately; 2 chops; 4 fogged coastals, 1 fogged land tile; +2:health:.
2W.......: 5 river/cottage ( 9 land tiles); +3:food: immediately; 3 chops; 6 fogged coastals/sea. 1 fogged land tile; +2:health:.

Observations:

Waiting to settle 1 turn reveals 12 potential fat cross tiles (11 sea + 1 land).
Settling on river (ie., not NW) gives us access to 6 potential copper/horse tiles w/o Wheel.
+4:commerce: for dyes comes when we're ready to lightbulb astro anyway.
Exposing more sea tiles gives us better idea of potential settlement sites in proximity to capital (for cutural border trade connection).
Settling 2W allows settling on E coast.

My preference
I say we burn the turn. The only possibility for us losing the Gold by 1 turn is if we f*ck up... ;)

I would also settle in place. Even some seafood in the west wouldn't make this a really great site. So just take what we have.Imo, any seafood enables us to skip Agri in the short-term and bee-line BW>Sailing, if we want, plus we get the extra :commerce:, and then with Agri gives us a huge boost in poprushing :hammers:.

Without more food, we need farms instead of cottages, a tech-path nightmare.

Note on lightbulbing Optics and Astronomy

As I understand the GL tech preference charts for Great Scientists, we cannot rely on the usual avoidance of Meditation, because we'll get it involuntarily. Instead, we need to
avoid Code of LawsDo you all come to the same conclusion?

Scheduling this turnset

I propose the following motion:

Today (Wednesday): We decide whether to settle in place or T1 Settler NW; T2 Scout SW S
Thursday: BP makes that move, posts screenshot, save.
Thursday: We make 1-3 test maps with the terrain we see, settings we have.
Friday-Monday: We undertake a testathon with concurrent discussion.
Tuesday: BP begins his turnset
Wednesday: BP completes his turnset (if he decided discussion was needed)

I've looked at a couple of maps generated with the archipelago setting. Lots of island, and not all of the AI is reachable with galleys. I'm not sure what "fractal-like" is, but it sounds like it is more connected. Regardless, if we can't conquer without galleons, we could instead choose to dominate the islands we reach.

If we're going for galleys only, I presume that we need to chain our galleys, which is very tedious. Still, it does enable very rapid deployment of new troops.

If we're going for lightbulbing, then yes we need to avoid CoL (and paper).

I've updated post #2:

EDIT2: Forgot to mention: Ensure that your autosave config is set every turn. Don't forget to enable all HOF settings in case you lost them during a dual-install or whatever reason. And set the first-turn-setting to first turn = 1. This will reduce future confusion.

Our choices for settling are:
...

Excellent analysis! I don't think we need to worry about health at all though.

Please correct me if I'm wrong: any resources that are located on land tiles next to the river will connect to our capital if it's located on the coast, even if we haven't learned Sailing?

Ok, Erkon, I've waited exactly a few hours since reading your idiotic welcome message and I'm not going use an emoticon here because there isn't one for flipping you the bird.

;) :goodjob:

I think playing around with test maps doesn't help a lot, if we don't know more about our map. Same for tech preferences, besides a first tech of mining or agri.
I would rather go pretty quick to turn 6, when the first animal intelligence comes in.
I'm still in the "don't move the settler if you don't see a better place" faction.

My main concern goes back to what you said about this being a fast conquest game. If we need to have Astronomy, which is probably a 50-50 crapshoot on Medium sea level, I think the Gold Medal goes to the first tema to Astro. Don't you think?

I tried a simple test game (sorry klarius :D) and started with mining => BW => IW. Started with worker.

Reflections:

The worker was idle for 13 turns between mining and chopping. Even if we worked the banana (hmm, that doesn't sound very appropriate, does it?) for the +1 cpt, the worker would still be idle for 10 turns.

The barb units does not reveal much of the immediate area, and we can't derive early if we need astronomy or not.

My map had 851 tiles. 64% of those => 544. With 10/15 tiles on average for our cities => 54/36 cites are needed. Domination doesn't look attractive.

The AI cities were not good defended. One archer in a capital? It won't be a problem to take out one or two AI with axes.

Tech dates:
Mining 3610 BC
Archery 2950 BC (barb)
BW 2710 BC
Fishing 2560 BC (barb)
Hunting 1690 BC (barb)
IW 1300 BC
Mysticism 1180 BC (barb)
Masonry 1180 BC (barb)

Barb cities popped up 2020 BC, and at 1000 BC there was three of them

I was a few turns late with BW, and not many barb axemen showed up. If we're going for BW to the barbs, we must ensure we learn the tech before the human barbs show up.

BTW, why not cottage the banana?

Scheduling this turnset

I propose the following motion:

Today (Wednesday): We decide whether to settle in place or T1 Settler NW; T2 Scout SW S
Thursday: BP makes that move, posts screenshot, save.
Thursday: We make 1-3 test maps with the terrain we see, settings we have.
Friday-Monday: We undertake a testathon with concurrent discussion.
Tuesday: BP begins his turnset
Wednesday: BP completes his turnset (if he decided discussion was needed)


Current standing:

Erkon: move settler 1NW (settle T2)
klarius: settle on starting location (settle T1)
Mîtiu: settle on starting location (settle T1)
LC: move settler 1NW (settle T2)
BP: move settler ??? (settle T2)

If no-one changes their minds, or we get another team member casting their vote, we will delay one turn (unless BP comes up with any strange ideas... :p )

BTW, why not cottage the banana?

I think that got George Michael into a lot of trouble, didn't it?

or we get another team member casting their vote,
Maybe pm Murky, jesusin and GNEJS.

I've looked at a couple of maps generated with the archipelago setting. Lots of island, and not all of the AI is reachable with galleys. I'm not sure what "fractal-like" is, but it sounds like it is more connected. Regardless, if we can't conquer without galleons, we could instead choose to dominate the islands we reach.

My main concern goes back to what you said about this being a fast conquest game. If we need to have Astronomy, which is probably a 50-50 crapshoot on Medium sea level, I think the Gold Medal goes to the first tema to Astro. Don't you think?
Rememeber this is a Gyathaar modified map. I think it is highly likely the AI will all be in touch with each other, and we will be very isolated with only our bananas to play with. So I agree with LC 100% about the likely importance of Astro. (But we should know more way before our first GS pops)






I was a few turns late with BW, and not many barb axemen showed up. If we're going for BW to the barbs, we must ensure we learn the tech before the human barbs show up.When was that in your game?

Ok, Erkon, I've waited exactly a few hours since reading your idiotic welcome message and I'm not going use an emoticon here because there isn't one for flipping you the bird.

;) :goodjob:
:rotfl:
(I hope this is an approved emoticon usage according to the team directives)

When was that in your game?


:rotfl:
(I hope this is an approved emoticon usage according to the team directives)

Just a few turns earlier.

Take note: I'm keeping track of all offenses against me and my arbitrary rules!

:lol:

Hi guys. Just checking in. I'm slacking this week on vacation.

I tried a simple test game (sorry klarius :D) and started with mining => BW => IW. Started with worker.

Well, I played a few of these type of simple tests in the last 2 weeks ;).

Only thing was that I didn't have a banana tile which doesn't change much in the beginning.

BTW seems you're a little late for BW, if you had the bananas. :p

In my test maps it was just about the same turn for BW and human barbs, but that really depends on when the AIs settle their secondary cities. Probably it's later when they have neighbours as they then will likely build more units first.

It doesn't help much to note the dates of barb cities. It's very dependent on the RNG as there is only a 7% chance per turn after the conditions are met (45 turns elapsed and 2 cities per civ on average).

Still one thing to note:
In several cases I didn't beeline for BW, I couldn't get peace with more than 1 or 2 civs and after some time got a red face in the capital for war weariness.
In the cases with timely BW I could get peace with 4 or 5 civs and didn't experience WW.

Hi guys. Just checking in. I'm slacking this week on vacation.

Great! Welcome. The first thing we would like to ask you is weather we should settle this turn or next. Either you answer randomly, as most of us regularly do, or you spend some time with the screenshots BP provided. klarius and Mîtiu prefers to settle this turn, while BP, LC and me wants to move the settler. Declare your allegiance !!! :lol: j/k

It doesn't help much to note the dates of barb cities. It's very dependent on the RNG as there is only a 7% chance per turn after the conditions are met (45 turns elapsed and 2 cities per civ on average).

Still one thing to note:
In several cases I didn't beeline for BW, I couldn't get peace with more than 1 or 2 civs and after some time got a red face in the capital for war weariness.
In the cases with timely BW I could get peace with 4 or 5 civs and didn't experience WW.

What I found interesting was that the cities popped up at the same turn, and it took a while for another to be founded. I have noticed in previous games that the barbarians come in waves. It's as if the barbarians do not spawn during the period just after barb cities are founded. I've also noticed that there is typically a few turns of barb inactivity after the animals disappear. It's as if there cannot be both animals and human barbs on the map at the same time, and the animals don't die on the same turn.

I was offered peace by several AI. Is there any advantage with a peace treaty? The AI will be able to expand quicker if the barbs leave them alone, yes?

Good question: If we DoP with AIs, do barbs still attack them?

I noticed AIs wanting peace w/me as soon as I made a warrior, whether I did that earlier or later.

Good question: If we DoP with AIs, do barbs still attack them?

...

No, they wont, and thus we won't get WW. So, what we have to decide is if we prefer less WW or the barbs to harass the AI.

Hey guys, you type faster than I can read!

In a domination we will probably want GLig and SH. In a conquest we want no wonders at all.

Do we really not fogbust? I never saw a barb spamming before my eyes, did you?

I don’t think we need a warrior, a Lion appeared in my capital and disappeared as soon as I built a defender.

I will be away from my computer from 3Aug to 27Aug. I will probably be able to read and write here through my mobile phone.

I vote to settle on turn two. We need a hill. Mining the pigs sounds outrageous to my rather conventional ears. Bananas and Dyes can be farmed or cottaged, though, they are too late for our plans.

Tech path: BW would be my second priority, a relevant worker tech would be my first, Writing my third.

I have written this now, when I have only read till post 88. I keep on reading.

I prefer WW, the barbs don't last long, WW will wash away easily.

I would move the settler SW-S. That way we can come back to settle on the plains if we find nothing. Another option is 1NW, then scout Sw-SW next turn, we'll have the option of settlin 2W of the current position in the second turn or further away in the third turn if we find something interesting.

It seems the preference is for settling on turn 2 - so I shall move settler and scout to reveal all.

@jesusin: the settler move should be 1 tile only so it can return to its original site and settle on T2 if nec. I plan therefore to move him 1NW (1SW is also good if the scouut moves W, NE to reveal the coastal tiles)

@jesusin: the settler move should be 1 tile only so it can return to its original site and settle on T2 if nec. I plan therefore to move him 1NW (1SW is also good if the scouut moves W, NE to reveal the coastal tiles)

Do you really prefer settling on site than settling 1S on the plains? Anyway, no need to answer this question, I agree going 1NW.

It seems klarius and Mitiu made the correct call - no fishies anywhere to be seen:
156603

So, time to make those practice games and optimize our settling position and early development.
(If anyone with WB skills is able to post a test-map with the starting location reproduced, it would be greatly appreciated!)

What I found interesting was that the cities popped up at the same turn, and it took a while for another to be founded. I have noticed in previous games that the barbarians come in waves. It's as if the barbarians do not spawn during the period just after barb cities are founded. I've also noticed that there is typically a few turns of barb inactivity after the animals disappear. It's as if there cannot be both animals and human barbs on the map at the same time, and the animals don't die on the same turn.

Well, your interesting observations just don't fully match the SDK code. :crazyeye:
There is only maximum one barb city generated per turn. Other than that it's the (in)famous RNG.
There is a 7% (monarch) probability check to generate a barb city or not, it has nothing to do with how long it was that the last city was founded (it can succeed 1 turn later 100 turns or even never).
Then the game checks if there is a tile available to found a city by going through all tiles and checking various conditions like unowned tiles in area (110 per city on monarch), visibility to civ teams (not us), distance to cities.
If there are tiles available the best city with some random variation is founded.
Barbarians get more docile by city founding, because they defend their cities. On the other side barbarians are only randomly generated if the number of barbarians in an area (including the city defenders) is smaller than the number of unowned tiles in that area divided by 20 (for monarch/raging barbs). The barbarian city itself reduces the number of unowned tiles, but the bigger effect is that they want 3 defenders in the city, so only the rest is available for suiciding.

After the human barbs appear it takes several turns until they get their full strength. After that only losses are replaced. The animals are killed independently of that.
The game generates a number of needed barbs per area (unowned tiles in this area divided by 20). Then the number of existing barbs in this area is subtracted. If this number is bigger than 1 the game tries to generate 1/4 of this number +1 units. So e.g. if there are 10 units needed the game will create 3, 2, 2, 1, 1, 1 units in consecutive turns.
The units are created on random tiles with certain restrictions (distance to cities and visibility) if there are any such tiles. If no tiles are available (the whole area fogbusted) the barbs are out of luck.

I was offered peace by several AI. Is there any advantage with a peace treaty? The AI will be able to expand quicker if the barbs leave them alone, yes?
Every barb suiciding in enemy territory will count for war weariness. In my tests war weariness gets pretty bad at some time, if not making peace with several AI. But that may also depend on the lay of the land and how many barbs will be available for suicide at all. Sure not getting pillaged will help the AIs to expand.
Also if barbs get cities near civs, they typically cannot hold them forever if at war. Barb cities might be a nice foothold for the time when we come in force.

Do we really not fogbust? I never saw a barb spamming before my eyes, did you?

Yes I saw a barb city appearing right in sight of my settler going for a nice location. And you saw a lion in the capital. It's the same visibility test, which just ignores the barb team.


We need a hill. Mining the pigs sounds outrageous to my rather conventional ears. Bananas and Dyes can be farmed or cottaged, though, they are too late for our plans.

Why is mining pigs outrageous. That's still a damn good tile to have. And if one wants to pasture it later, there is nothing lost.
On the other side, I think cottaging (and work the cottages) tiles is a loss if you bulldoze villages or towns later to get the resource. Rather have the river grass cottaged which can then stay through the whole game.

Note on lightbulbing Optics and Astronomy

As I understand the GL tech preference charts for Great Scientists, we cannot rely on the usual avoidance of Meditation, because we'll get it involuntarily. Instead, we need to
avoid Code of LawsDo you all come to the same conclusion?
Well, the conclusion is correct, but I don't think it will pay off to avoid CoL (and drama BTW). No courthouses and no cheap path to CS are pretty heavy disadvantages.
Rather research or lightbulb philosophy to be able to sink scientists into astronomy. Or ignore lightbulbing completely and rather settle scientists.

It seems klarius and Mitiu made the correct call - no fishies anywhere to be seen:
{...}

Do you really expect such a gift from a game-modder like the ones from SGOTM ? :crazyeye:


Anyway - settle in initial place, set research to Mining and production to warrior until city will reach size 2 and in same time wander with our scout downside seems that is more resonable to do - and you could perform your turns doing that. :)
An alternative could be to research Agriculture first - but I'd like the mined "pig-hill" too much for choosing this approach ... :rolleyes:

Regards

Anyway - settle in initial place, set research to Mining and production to warrior until city will reach size 2 and in same time wander with our scout downside seems that is
Why do we need a warrior?

We don't need it - but isn't better to have the city at 2 size before starting our first worker ?

If you build a warrior first (I see no reason for that), you could get mining and agriculture before the worker comes out.
I would rather start with a worker even though he might sit idle then for some time. If there is any remotely useful city location I would then go for a settler @ size 2 already. As this path will not even finish a warrior before switching to settler, I would rather sink the few shields in a barracks as they then will not erode away.
I think the fastest path to a settler would be the BW beeline and finish it with a chop and 1 pop.

Alternatively we can do agri and mining and mainly hand build the settler. I still think that we then should go BW before any other worker techs to maximize the barb research feature (and maybe we have copper in the capital for another decent tile). But for sure BW comes then too late for the initial human barb spawning.
But then we should be pretty quick on catching up on worker techs, as well because there is already some research in them, as that we get a bonus for our research for teams knowing the techs.

Another option is to completely ignore the special setting and just do what's usually is a good advice. Get the techs for your resources then get pottery. But that means we don't have BW for a very long time. And with our shield poor - food rich (with AH) location, we soon hit the happy cap and cannot do anything about it.

Crosspost:
We don't need it - but isn't better to have the city at 2 size before starting our first worker ?

Why?
We can have a worker and by that an improved tile much earlier (note we don't even have a 3 food tile for the first 8 turns so growth is slow).
We cannot work an additional commerce tile unless we further slow down the worker.

Do you guys know how the barbarians research works? I think that could be a deciding factor in our tech choices.

Do you guys know how the barbarians research works? I think that could be a deciding factor in our tech choices.
Klarius has covered most of that pretty comprehensively in his posts. It is useful for the early techs but pretty negligible later on

Given that there are pigs for food wouldn't it make sense to beeline to AH? If there are horses that can make for a fast conquest in vanilla.

It seems klarius and Mitiu made the correct call - no fishies anywhere to be seen:

Aaaaaarrrrg! :mad: What is the Scout doing there? :mad: He should be 1 tile S! Shame on the one who made that move!

<<I am just preparing the audience for a big reaction to my first mistake>>;)




I'd go Worker first. I would research AH and then pasture the pigs, the only reason being that its conventional. After AH I would research BW. The idea of mining the pigs would never cross my mind. That doesn't mean it's a bad idea.

I am thinking about playing with my banana this weekend. That way I will be better prepared for this starting position. The more experience the better, uh?


Don’t play intoxicated (from alcohol, drugs or smoke). Don’t play when you are too tired. Or when you have your kids/wife screaming at you :lol:

Can there be an exception? I don’t think I can abide to this rule. Why do you think you got me on your team, in the first place? :lol: :lol:
I have developed an addiction to this game in general and to cultural victories in particular, so I am intoxicated as soon as I open the game. In addition, my wife can start screaming anytime; I wouldn’t be able to play a (quick speed) game a week if I stopped when she is yelling. She is on the barb camp, only she is not teamed with Temujin.

Given that there are pigs for food wouldn't it make sense to beeline to AH? If there are horses that can make for a fast conquest in vanilla.

I'd go Worker first. I would research AH and then pasture the pigs, the only reason being that its conventional. After AH I would research BW. The idea of mining the pigs would never cross my mind. That doesn't mean it's a bad idea.

Going Agr>AH will give us a capital with (relatively) fast growth, poor commerce and abysmal production. It will quickly reach its happy cap and struggle to build anything much. Mining>BW allows us to improve the production side of things, and to whip the capital as necessary (and have those barb axemen terrorizing the neighbours) - but growth is much slower, so it is a trade off.

Agr>Mining>BW seems instinctively the best compromise - we can get decent growth from a banana farm (and other farms that will keep the worker busy) and production from the pig-mine. Because of our improved growth, slavery will be more useful - but those barb axemen will show up later

We all need to spend a few days working out the optimal start

Agr>Mining>BW seems instinctively the best compromise ...
...We all need to spend a few days working out the optimal start

If we are not going AH, then Mining-Agr-BW seems better, doesn't it?

I don't like mining the pigs. A single mine is not enought for a decent capital. I prefer 0 mines and a big excess of food to whip. The disadvantage of pasturing the pigs is that we have to research AH.

I also feel we are going too fast, the initial tech and production should be decided after a lot of pondering.

If you want agri and mining first, it's probably even best to switch back and forth between the two and complete one only immediately before the worker comes out :lol:. By that you maximize the time for a third civ to come up with these techs and get free barb beakers and another bonus beaker (at 10 or 11 research it's also the 3rd civ knowing the tech which gives the first additional beaker).

And again, I don't think there is much to ponder or learn from additional test games (ok, if you haven't played any by now), before we get more intelligence about the AIs and possible city locations on our island.

I'll try to put together a test map tonight (American English time) if no one beats me to it, but it would really be better to have us each testing with different ones, simply because the one random variable we can't World build is the location and resources of the AIs. Having a several maps is less likely to lead us astray on what the AIs research and how fast.

I recommend these tests:
1. Using the same map, try different tech paths:

Agr>Mng>BW
Mng>Agr>BW
Agr>Wheel>Pottery>Mng>BW
Agr>Wheel>Pottery>Wtg
Agr>Wheel>Pottery>Myst>Poly>Priest (Oracle)

2. Useful questions to keep in mind:

(Obviously) Which tech path is significantly faster toward Astro? This should include consideration for any faster REXing that a tech path produces, (warring REX is hard to factor in).
Is early cottage spamming worth it?
How soon can we start off-shore warring with a BW>Sailing beeline?
Which tech paths gain us the most almost-free or free techs?
Which is better for wkr productivity? agr>mng or mng>agr
How soon do we know if we need Astro?
Does wb exploration speed up knowing about Astro?
Is it true we can't get the circumnavigation bonus (yeah I know gyathaar didn't fix it).
How much are AIs hindered by barbs?
When do AIs finish their techs (either watch the tech costs or WB to know)?
From what date to what date do the AIs finish the Oracle?
?
?
?

If you want agri and mining first, it's probably even best to switch back and forth between the two and complete one only immediately before the worker comes out :lol:. By that you maximize the time for a third civ to come up with these techs and get free barb beakers and another bonus beaker (at 10 or 11 research it's also the 3rd civ knowing the tech which gives the first additional beaker).

Just want to highlight this post - sounds an excellent idea (if we want Agr/Min>BW)

I don't like mining the pigs. A single mine is not enought for a decent capital. I prefer 0 mines and a big excess of food to whip. The disadvantage of pasturing the pigs is that we have to research AH. I would anticipate we pasture the pigs once we get AH - the pig-mine is just a temporary measure (assuming we get BW before AH)

I also feel we are going too fast, the initial tech and production should be decided after a lot of pondering. If there is one thing team MW is good at, it is endless pontificating on what to do (why else do you think our post count has been double everyone elses combined for the last 3 SGOTMs. I don't plan to play my turns until next week (or until we fill 1000 posts with analysis of the various permutations available to us)

If you want agri and mining first, it's probably even best to switch back and forth between the two and complete one only immediately before the worker comes out :lol:. By that you maximize the time for a third civ to come up with these techs and get free barb beakers and another bonus beaker (at 10 or 11 research it's also the 3rd civ knowing the tech which gives the first additional beaker).

And again, I don't think there is much to ponder or learn from additional test games (ok, if you haven't played any by now), before we get more intelligence about the AIs and possible city locations on our island.

Just want to highlight this post - sounds an excellent idea (if we want Agr/Min>BW)This is an example of how testing could help, at least probabilistically.

Test Priority 1: Agri or Mng first?
Do we have a reason to research Agri or Mng first (Pig Mine faster; Pig Mine better?; Banana Plantation farm better?; Agri produces less wkr idleness? etc.)

Test Priority 2: Best :science: bonus?
We know that the :science: help for Agri is 2:science:/turn with 3 AIs knowing it, whereas Mng is only 1:science:/turn. So there are 3 scenarios:

3+ AIs learn both
3+ AIs learn Mng
3+ AIs learn Agri.

Testing multiple maps might tell us which is most likely during our time frame. If a 3rd AI is unlikely to learn Agri, we're better off saving Mng for later (unless we want the Pig Mine first).

If a 3rd AI is likely to learn Agri, we're better off with mng first, and so on.

EDIT: Actually, there are additional scenarios, such as 5+ AIs kowing mng, <3 or 3 knowing Agri, etc...

(at 10 or 11 research it's also the 3rd civ knowing the tech which gives the first additional beaker).Can you explain this game mechanic, please? Are you saying when our research goes from 9:science: to 10:science:, we get a bonus, making it actually 11:science:?

Are there additional bonuses at higher :science: amounts?

I like the idea to mine the pigs, as long as the mine is BIG. Got the pun? Big mine => big pigs! It's almost Big Pig! Got it? Speaking of which, since BP haven't posted the got-it message properly, we need to prepare for a replacement.

But why do we need production? Barracks is next to useless, due to the lack of hammers, thus the investment will not pay back. As I see it, our capital can be used for workers & settlers mainly. But there's no suitable city site very close (mostly jungle).

My limited experience from one test game indicates that the barbarians will not help us much i.e. we must not deviate very far from the optimal non-barbarian tactics we would have followed in a normal game.

As I see it, the following aspects of the special setting will affect us:

Pros:

Free beakers for the early techs
Roughly idea of the layout of the map very early
No barb threat against us
Possibility to harass the AI with axe barbarians (if we beeline to BW)
Less defenders in AI cities
No penalties for declaring war


Cons:

We will get increased WW
The barbs may steal good city sites
The barbs may steal resources
We can't pop huts
We have 50% research penalty


Did I miss anything?

Since this is a competition, I think that any team that can adopt and utilize the advantages and reduce the impact of the disadvantages will win, given a roughly even competence in warring.

We all agree that we should not research early techs that we're not in a hurry to learn, yes?

We could spam settlers and REX away, since we don't have to be afraid of the barbs.

We also need to send out a work boat or two to explore. Recon is vital.

jesusin, I think BP messed up the scout move to lower the expectation on LC...

jesusin, I think BP messed up the scout move to lower the expectation on LC...Which expectation? How soon I can replace the monitor I crashed against my wall?

Speaking of which, BP, I hope you understand why that move was...pig-headed--the scout move N instead of S defogged 1 tile--a tile that was out of fat cross reach anyway... :crazyeye:

No biggie, of course, methinks scouting is the least of our worries...

Can you explain this game mechanic, please? Are you saying when our research goes from 9:science: to 10:science:, we get a bonus, making it actually 11:science:?

Are there additional bonuses at higher :science: amounts?

I thought this stuff to be known :scan:, from the corresponding war academy article (though this is not quite correct).

If we don't work a commerce tile we generate 10 beakers.
8 capital, 1 city center and 1 which is just there although the commerce screen says we generate 9. So that's what I mean we generate 10 or 11 beakers.

When other civs learn a tech we get a bonus to our research. Again the integer arithmetic gets things a bit involved but the percentage we get is
floor((30 * nw) / na)
this percentage is then multiplied with our research and again truncated. Note we get an advantage here versus the standard games as again we aren't counted as an alive civ :D.
So 2 knowing it is 60/7 = 8% and multiplied by 10 or 11 beakers this truncates to 0.
3 with the knowledge is 13% and this gives an additional beaker. As the barb science kicks in at the same threshold we in fact generate then 12-13 instead of 10-11 beakers.
Obviously this would also get better if we had more science (at least it makes the truncation steps not so prevalent), but nothing we can do currently.
For techs with prerequisites it's getting even more involved as the 20% prerequisite bonus is summed with the above before multiplication and may shift the breakpoints.

Btw, for making test maps, I think the best choice is archipelageo/snaky continents. Take a look at Syrian's examples:
http://www.civfanatics.com/images/civ4/sirian_maps/sample-archipelago.jpg

In any case, we need to watch this, especially during the very early turnsets, because if it turns out to be archipelago/archipelago, it's very likely we don't need Astro (barring evil deeds by Gyathaar).

I thought this stuff to be known :scan:, from the corresponding war academy article (though this is not quite correct).

If we don't work a commerce tile we generate 10 beakers.
8 capital, 1 city center and 1 which is just there although the commerce screen says we generate 9. So that's what I mean we generate 10 or 11 beakers.
Sry. I did know all of this. I thought you were saying that the "1 which is just there" only comes when we go above 9:science:. Never mind... ;)

...
On the other side, I think cottaging (and work the cottages) tiles is a loss if you bulldoze villages or towns later to get the resource. Rather have the river grass cottaged which can then stay through the whole game.

I've never thought of it, but I checked in WB, and I couldn't detect any hidden resources next to river on the maps. Only two candidate tiles left for us, which doesn't sound promising.

I've never thought of it, but I checked in WB, and I couldn't detect any hidden resources next to river on the maps. Only two candidate tiles left for us, which doesn't sound promising.
In an unmodified map, copper, iron and horses cannot be on a river tile (or oil or uranium - coal and aluminium are possibilities tho' :) )

In any case, we need to watch this, especially during the very early turnsets, because if it turns out to be archipelago/archipelago, it's very likely we don't need Astro (barring evil deeds by Gyathaar).
It is a hand-modified map (which is why there is no "sort of fractal-archipelago" setting in Civ), so all bets are off. If we don't need Astro I would be amazed

Here's a test map with archipelago/archipelago. I think everything's right. Let me know if otherwise.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/58975/Temujin_BC-3970.Civ4SavedGame

Here is another test map. For sure not everything is right ;).
It's a fractal map with some hand archipelagoing. It doesn't require astronomy, but how and when will we find out.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/47447/test-barb_BC-3970.Civ4SavedGame

Edit:
And BTW, I don't think the map is something like a real archipelago.
Gyathaar didn't run into the alphabet crash in his own tests.
That's probably so, because every civ new another civ. In real archi maps there are mostly some civs coming out very late.

Edit:
And BTW, I don't think the map is something like a real archipelago.
Gyathaar didn't run into the alphabet crash in his own tests. Ha! Woe to the uninitiated. I wonder how many other secrets he inadvertantly revealed. (Or myabe he didn't run enough testing...?)

Started testing last night. First impression:

agonizingly slow research
no hammers, low food -- does this beg for cottages or what?
AIs' first tech choices totally unpredictably
Qin is going to be a bit hard to catch tech-wise
Our free beakers don't help much for a long time.
My testing priorities:
Where are the AIs at when our bee-lined axes are ready to attack?
How much better is bee-lined cottages?

Klarius's and LC's map play quite differently. Klarius's map has a quicker tech pace (presumably because the AI know each other) and faster WW (presumably because there is more room for barbs to spawn and all the AI can be attacked by barbs).
Settling 1N of the bananas seems to give the best start in terms of growth and tech speed (as the 3F 1G banana is workable immediately and farmable on the turn the worker is built) (It is less good as a capital site later on than the original position - but we may well want to consider a Palace-jump anyway)
Hammer count is awful - but there is little we need to build with hammers.
I never needed (or wanted) to work t