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The Game
You are Temujin, Leader of the Mongolian Hordes. You have tired of fighting the Barbarians, and so this time you have decided to join them instead. You will win a glorious victory in this Monarch game, of course, but you are teamed with the Barbarians, and you have to adapt to Barbarian assets and liabilities:


You have no starting techs.
The barbs are your friends, and are fighting on your team.
You will benefit from the Barbarian capability to explore the world in animal and human form.
You can research, but you will also learn techs that the Barbarians learn.
.... And you start off at war with everyone on the planet except the Barbarians. You can make peace with anyone.


The Objective
This Monarch difficulty game is on a Standard size, Gyathaar-special map, at Epic speed, against 7 rivals. All victory conditions are enabled, and the laurels for this contest will be awarded to the teams who achieve the earliest victory date in the game.

Versions
This game will be played in Civilization IV version 1.74, using special HoF Mod 1.74.SGOTM5.

Schedule
Start files for each team will be available on the SGOTM Progress and Results Page (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/submit/civ4sgotm_submission_list.php) at midnight, server local time, at the start of July 25.

I propose that you aim to complete this game in three months, that is by the end of October 2007.

Starting Position
Here's the starting position - click the image below to see a larger version.

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/civ4games/images/sgotm5_start_small.jpg (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/civ4games/images/sgotm5_start_large.jpg)

Map Parameters
Playable Leader/Civ - Temujin of Mongolia
Rivals - 7: China, Japan, India, Arabia, Spain, Persia and Greece
World size - Standard
Difficulty - Monarch
Landform - Special, sort of a fractal archipelago
Environment - Temperate climate, medium sea level
Game Speed - Epic
AI Aggression - Normal
Barbarians - Raging, and teamed with the Mongols
Permanent Alliances - Not Enabled
City Razing - Enabled

Notes

Please visit the Civ4 SGOTM reference thread (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=168439) to check out the rules and procedures to ensure that you are adequately prepared for this game.

Teams will compete for up to four awards - the Gold, Silver and Bronze Laurels for the fastest finishes, and the Wooden Spoons for the lowest scoring finisher. The number of awards will depend on the number of teams.

All teams must play the sponsored variant - awards will be given to teams who achieve victories in the least turns.

All saved game files uploaded to the server are parsed through software that extracts and archives data about your save, including reload count for each turn set.

Please enjoy the game :)

Checking in! Looking forward to playing with you and welcome to new and resurfaced players. I'm away for the next week.

TDK

yep, checking in also. i've only been playing warlords for the last few months, so i'm off to dig out the vanilla disc.

Just checking in--I'm away this week.

Hello, Checking in...

I am around for the next few weeks, but mid August i will be away.

so...the game has begun. any thoughts on opening strategy?

starting off at war means with everyone means that we'll need to prioritise military techs more than usual to begin with. also we'll probably be lacking trading partners for quite a while, so alphabet won't be so important.

conquest or domination seem to be the obvious choices for victory

i would suggest starting by building a warrior and letting the city grow while researching worker techs. then after getting a worker or two out (and maybe a settler) start building up our mongolian hordes...

I think there is a mechanism in the game that upgrades the barbarian units to the most modern possessed by any civ. I we were to build an axeman early the barbs would start popping axes as well. Can anyone confirm this?

TDK

Checking in.

I agree with kkev that conquest/domination are the obvious VC`s to go for.

I think there is a mechanism in the game that upgrades the barbarian units to the most modern possessed by any civ. I we were to build an axeman early the barbs would start popping axes as well. Can anyone confirm this?


I don`t think this is correct, but given the unusual nature of this game we should probably do 1 or 2 tests to check this out.

I prowled the forums a bit to learn how our barbarian friends 'work' in the game. It seems our relationship to the barbarians is pretty much like a permanent alliance in a normal game. This means we give them our techs and they give us theirs. The barbarians will research techs if they acquire cities to do it in, but without a capital and high troop maintenance that will be an unlikely scenario.
In excess of that, the barbarians:
-acquire a small number of beakers on techs known by at least one 'real' civilization(something like 1-3% depending on the number of civs already knowing it).
-start the game with -100 relations with all other civs, meaning we will have difficulty engaging in any meaningful diplomacy as a team.

From this information, I would suggest we make it a priority to research Bronze Working(axemen) to give our barbarians a fighting chance vs. the other civs.
It would also seem like a good idea to beeline expensive techs and leave the barbs to grab the early cheap technologies for us. Maybe a CS slingshot is worth a try?

I have attached a practice game i found somewhere on the forums - gives a good feel for how the barbs work.

TDK

Back in town for a week.

Looking forward to playing with everyone--this seems like a most unusual game.


TDK--thanks for the save. I played a little of it and it answered a few of my questions. It looked like research dribbled in for techs that several AI had--not sure the mechanism-- barbs popped archery for me when hunting was half done. However all tech was more expensive--appeared to be about 30% more.

So I definately agree with the beeline approach.

I agree with conquest or dom as likely victory--probably dom easier. I would think we could spread religion to barb cities and get culture pop.

Valuable insights on diplomacy:
In fact it's the same in vanilla for team attitude. And the attitude value towards the barbs is fixed at -100.

That means nobody will ever vote for the barbarian team, if somebody should think about going for diplomatic .

On the other side the human will be nobody's worst enemy, because the barbarian team is not considered for worst enemy.

But more importantly with the list of leaders (none of the loose traders), there will be no tech trading before you get a leader to friendly (which is effectively cautious).
The same for bribing anybody to war.
There will be no trading of any kind with Tokugawa ever.
Open borders with Alex, Isa and Saladin would also require to get them to friendly first, which looks pretty impossible starting with -3 for having declared on them.

There is no difference whether the others are cautious or pleased. Both is effectively annoyed. So unless there is a chance to get somebody to friendly (maybe possible when sharing a religion with Asoka or Cyrus), there's not much point in trying to get on the good side of the civs.

A big problem will be war weariness. The barbarians don't suffer from it, but they collect war weariness points for the whole team. As they will lose lots of units in foreign territory that will ramp up quickly.

I have just played a few test games, and it looks like the AI`s eliminate the barb`s on their continent fairly quickly. So the barb`s are not likely to be much help unless this map has been modified a lot.

The barbs research techs very slowly, so we are not going to be able to rely on them to backfill all the techs we need. They will research archery before hunting because on monarch the AI`s all start with archery.

As all techs cost more pulling off a CS slingshot will probably be too risky unless we find a good commerce tile in the fog. It would also delay our military build up. As our starting position appears to have relativly little production this could hurt us a lot.

I would suggest someone moves the scout 1 W, and 1 NW before we do anything else.

I have just played a few test games, and it looks like the AI`s eliminate the barb`s on their continent fairly quickly. So the barb`s are not likely to be much help unless this map has been modified a lot.
Did you beeline Bronze Working? I played a few test games as well and in every case the barbs had at least one civ on the ropes, pillaging every improvement and in one case even capturing the Stonehenge for us! The AI's doesn't have an effective counter against early barb axemen so I think we should still consider going for Bronze Working, which would also be good for chopping and whipping.

I agree we should move the scout to get more info, so I will go ahead and do that.

TDK

This is our situation:
http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/286/sgotm5startta9.jpg

I suggest we settle in place and start Mining and a worker. If a fish shows up in the north sea we can consider switching to Fishing(we will get Fishing relatively quickly without researching it as four of our competitors start with fishing).

I suggest we settle in place and start Mining and a worker. If a fish shows up in the north sea we can consider switching to Fishing(we will get Fishing relatively quickly without researching it as four of our competitors start with fishing).

Agree with settling in place (after moving scout to make sure we're not missing anything brilliant), and with starting to research mining.

bee-lining bronze-working so that the barbs can get axemen online seems like a good starting plan

but i vote we hold off building a worker until we've researched a few techs. there's nothing a worker can do until we get agriculture, bronze working, animal husbandry etc. so how about starting on a warrior instead? then we can send him out looking for workers to steal

who wants to start? i need to get my hands on a copy of civ vanilla, so i won't be able to play for a week or so, but we should get going asap.

Did you beeline Bronze Working? I played a few test games as well and in every case the barbs had at least one civ on the ropes, pillaging every improvement and in one case even capturing the Stonehenge for us!

What map script did you use? I used archipeligo initially. On fractal the barbs seem to be far more effective. I guess it just depends on what the map looks like. Regardless of this I agree that mining-bronze working is a good opening.


but i vote we hold off building a worker until we've researched a few techs. there's nothing a worker can do until we get agriculture, bronze working, animal husbandry etc. so how about starting on a warrior instead? then we can send him out looking for workers to steal



If we go worker first we can mine the pigs, so we will only lose a few worker turns. As we start at war with everyone a worker steal will be more difficult than usual. So I vote for worker-warrior.

This is our situation:
I suggest we settle in place and start Mining and a worker. If a fish shows up in the north sea we can consider switching to Fishing(we will get Fishing relatively quickly without researching it as four of our competitors start with fishing).

I agree with settling in place, warrior->worker, and bee-line to bronze working. I am also OK with worker->warrior and researching Animal Husbandry to work the pigs & find horses for Keshiks.

I agree with settling in place. I think we shoud be safe with worker first--I don't think the AI would send out an archer that early.

I'm not convinced about mining-BW tho. Are we certain that getting BW gives us a significant chance of spawning axes? Clearly Ag-AH is much better for our own development.

As for how effective the barbs can be, I think it is hugely dependent on landmass. Without much landmass they won't do much.

Anyone know what the AI bonus vs. barbs is at monarch?

I don't think a worker steal is realistic--better to fortify our first warrior to guard against an accident.

Hi guys, missed the sign up while on holiday, so joining you all a bit late.

I would go for mining-BW, but I have no idea how the barbs will spawn when they have a choice of units. But given that no barbs will spawn at all for a while, we do not need to get BW until the barbs start spawning (50 turns or something?). Does that give us room to fit in Ag/AH?

I think a worker steal is a non-starter, as the other civs will see us coming, and run away. We would need to ambush a worker that is wandering outside their cultural boundary.

Big danger is any passing warrior is free to pop in a pillage anything we build, or walk into an undefended city.

How much exploration will we get from barb animals? Can we circumnavigate with them?

To those expressing worry about pillaging warriors, I would remind everyone that the barbs are on our side and raging, chances are that the AI will have plenty to do defending.

I would go for mining-BW, but I have no idea how the barbs will spawn when they have a choice of units. But given that no barbs will spawn at all for a while, we do not need to get BW until the barbs start spawning (50 turns or something?). Does that give us room to fit in Ag/AH?
The barbs will start spawning animals after about 6 turns and human units somewhat later, but before we could conceivably discover Bronze Working.

I'm not convinced about mining-BW tho. Are we certain that getting BW gives us a significant chance of spawning axes?
In my test games, the barbs start spawning axes as soon as I get Bronze Working.
I wouldn't mind going for Agri-AnimalH instead, it would certainly be the safe route. On the other hand, going for Bronze Working could be a huge advantage if we manage to cripple a civ or two and it would also be the most fun to attempt to take advantage of our special relationship with the barbs.

I would suggest that we discover Mining and at that time upload a save to allow all the team to asses how well the map is suited for a barb rush. If it looks like there is a lot of land, we continue with Bronze Working. If the map is watery, we can consider changing route to Agri etc.

TDK

How much exploration will we get from barb animals? Can we circumnavigate with them?

The barbs seem to do a lot of exploring for us, but the barb team can never get the circumnavigation bonus.

would suggest that we discover Mining and at that time upload a save to allow all the team to asses how well the map is suited for a barb rush. If it looks like there is a lot of land, we continue with Bronze Working. If the map is watery, we can consider changing route to Agri etc.


This seems like a good idea to me.

I ran a quick test with the save TDK posted and human barbs started in 2620.
By beelining BW there were no warriors--only axes and archers. That seems pretty big, as the warriors are just XP fodder and WW for us while those early axes should be pretty unstoppable pillagers and could possibly take down a civ if enough spawn.

I like TDK's plan of reassessing after mining.

I played to Mining. A lot of barbarians appeared in what appears to be a big landmass. There are at least 4 of of our rivals on that continent.
http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/1175/sgotm5barbae6.jpg

Our own island is crap. There is a Stone in the south, it might be worth it to build the Stonehenge if our barb friends found a lot of cities.
http://img159.imageshack.us/img159/4227/sgotm5barb1ou2.jpg

I propose to continue with Bronze Working as I think we have a chance to pick off a civ if barbs get axes soon.

I will continue in a few hours if there are no objections.

TDK

The barbs will start spawning animals after about 6 turns and human units somewhat later, but before we could conceivably discover Bronze Working.
TDK
In the test save of yours BW came in before the human spawn in 2620 with no MM for commerce. I would suggest prioritizing commerce a bit to get it in by around turn 45 which I think should be doable. But BW definately--our friends should rock.

If we confirm that we are alone then we need no units other than happiness garrisons for a while--either sailing if reachable or astro if not.

Agree on SH.

Are you sure we can't get BW by the human spawn?--my guess is that we could.
I think you are right, we should get it right about there.

TDK

Not much happened, I finished the worker and sent it to the hill to build a mine. It is interesting to observe that the barbs put in around 210 bulbs to our 280.

A plan:
Right now it seems like we will need Astronomy to win a domination/conquest victory. The fastest way to Astronomy is an Oracle sling to Machinery and 3 scientists for Optics and Astronomy. The question is, can we research Metal Casting in time to grab Machinery?
As I see it, we will need the gold mine up and running as soon as possible if we are to have a chance to grab Machinery. We would also need cottages soon so my suggestion would be to research the Wheel next, followed by Pottery(Pottery is also required for Metal Casting). I would build a settler in the capital after the warrior and chop our forest to complete it fast. I would settle blue cross and immediately mine the gold(blue cross would also disqualify both barb huts as future barb cities, and we can pop them with a border expansion when we want, maybe even grab a nice tech like Astronomy:crazyeye: ). At some point we should also build a workboat to make sure we really need Astronomy, to be used as fishing boat when we settle red cross.
http://img125.imageshack.us/img125/811/sgotm5citynb2.jpg

TDK

so we're on an islnad all by ourselves...interesting...

agree with the astronomy plan. we also need to add iron working into our research plan somewhere, cos our land is 75% jungle and we'll need to start clearing that to get some productive cities.

until then it looks like we're not going to have anything more than our capital and the gold/rice city.

i can play at the weekend, so in the meantime does someone else want to take a round?

I agree with building a settler for the gold/rice city after the warrior is done.

The machinery slingshot via Oracle will be the quickest way to astronomy IF we can pull it off. Unfortunatly this seems very unlikly- Remember all our techs cost more than usual, and he barbs research will not make up for it.. At the moment just researching metal casting will take 120 turns. Even with the gold city it will still take more than 60 turns, cottages will help but probably not enough. Even building the Oracle will be difficult in our position. I would place a higher priority on techs like writing and iron working and research machinery the hard way, though I do agree with popping several GS for optics/astronomy. In the short term I would finish bronze working, and then probably the wheel if we have a suitable source of copper to hook up.

I think it is extremly unlikly that we will be isolated until Astronomy- Not all the civs can be on that large landmass, so I would invest our limited poduction in exploration and then settling/conquering other islands, depending on what we find.

I agree with building a settler for the gold/rice city after the warrior is done.
I would change to settler immediately after the city reaches size 2, we can then chop one forest and then finish it with a 1 pop whip. We don't really need a warrior for anything.

I also think it is unlikely that we are alone untill Astronomy. We can actually see 2 more civs on other islands, the one to the south might be reachable with culture/island hopping. A central question in this game seems to be whether we will need Astronomy to win or not. For this reason I propose to build a workboat after the settler, at the same time letting the city grow, and then a second worker/settler can be whipped/chopped.

I agree with you that it might be difficult to grab Machinery. In that case we might be better off settling red cross first and build the Stonehenge, but we can discuss that after we build the settler. There are risks involved in red cross, a barb city near the gold would be disastrous as we would never be rid of it.

Mdy, will you take it? It seems there are no objections to building the settler at least.

TDK

yep, let's build a settler and start populating our empty lands...

O.K. I can play this evening if there are no objections. I agree with starting the settler as soon as we reach size 2. If we focus on it we should be able to get a second city out before barb cities start spawning. Does anyone know whether stationing a unit on the gold will stop a barb city spawning there?

Does anyone know whether stationing a unit on the gold will stop a barb city spawning there?
My guess is fog-busting will not prevent a barb hut becoming a city. My guess is based on the fact that the barb panther literally spawned on top of our scout in my turnset.
I think we can still count on the rule that a city can never be settled within 2 squares of another city, which is one of the reasons why I proposed blue cross.
I think you should play all the way to settler-completion, at that time we might also want to discuss if it's worth it to sign any peace treaties - either to not be at war with small island civs or, more importantly, to avoid the barbs crashing into civs with the Protective trait so we may instead concentrate all their power on a few weaker targets.

TDK

I'm gone the next week--

I agree with the plan for the settler.

My gut feeling is that our continent is so food and hammer poor that tech may not be our limitation. We have 2 decent sites to the SE and can develop a couple or 3 to the W but those will be very slow and require IW.
Astro can be slung with oracle, gp but the army cannot. I also think machinery is likely a tech too far but I think oracle makes sense--in city 2.

My guess is that barbs and cities would not spawn if we have busted the fog but if someone could check that out that would be great. If that is the case, then I think we should fog bust the west as well. We don't want to lose those sites either.

Tech wise we should prioritize pottery as we get 1/2 price gran. Whipping those at pop 2 is really powerful. I'd go wheel next.

My guess is fog-busting will not prevent a barb hut becoming a city. My guess is based on the fact that the barb panther literally spawned on top of our scout in my turnset.
TDK
If this is true for cities spawning then we are probably unable to stop them in the west.

I also agree with playing until the settler is done.

The barbs have researched archery for us.

Alexander asked for peace - We declined.

The worker has been set to chop the second forest - the next player may want to change this.

The only axe that has appeared is on our continent. This makes me suspect that barbs may only spawn axeman on continents where at least one civ has bronze working - can anyone confirm this?

Saladin is definatly reachable by galley.

We have copper - but not in the most immediatly useful position.

We have revolted to slavery.


Turn 34, 2980 BC: Hinduism has been founded in a distant land!
Turn 34, 2980 BC: You have discovered Archery!

Turn 35, 2950 BC: Alexander converts to Hinduism!

Turn 38, 2860 BC: You have discovered Bronze Working!

Turn 39, 2830 BC: The revolution has begun!!!
Turn 39, 2830 BC: Temujin adopts Slavery!
Turn 39, 2830 BC: The anarchy is over! Your government is re-established.

Turn 47, 2590 BC: You have trained a Settler in Karakorum. Work has now begun on a Warrior.



I think we should focus on spamming settlers to grab as many cities as possible before the barb cities start spawning. The gold/rice city looks like the most promising first city site.

Iron working will be a priority to clear the jungle, so I would go for that after the wheel (possibly fitting pottery in when the barbs get agriculture/fishing).

The only axe that has appeared is on our continent. This makes me suspect that barbs may only spawn axeman on continents where at least one civ has bronze working - can anyone confirm this?
This was not so in the test games. They will come.

Mdy, if you see this, please upload the save to the forum as the GOTM server is down.

TDK

[QUOTE][Mdy, if you see this, please upload the save to the forum as the GOTM server is down.
/QUOTE]

Done. There is actually a second axeman on Qin`s continenet, but none on the main one.

Do barb cities only spawn on hut sites? I thought they just appeared in any sufficiently large area of fog. Interesting.

I guess barbs will spawn within our sight, but outwith our culture. Is our island going to fill up with barbs who spawn out of nothing, and have no way to get off the island?

I think that we can go west to the largest continent with a culture bridge, as the sea looks like it gets lighter again. If we can get to Qin as well, then we will not need to wait for astronomy. There is definitely an island between Qin and the continent, as you can see a coast tile. And there is also the island NE of Karakorum to chain through. Only question is how long it will take to find out if we need Astronomy, but I think we probably will not.

I would aim to build by the gold/rice first. We can build north of the stone without iron, and just work the clams and stone, but we really need iron working to build above the rice for a culture bridge, and to build a bananas/bronze city. That gives us 5 cities on this island.

Alone on an island start. It looks food poor as Ungy pointed out. Pop rushing the granaries will help a lot. I like the pottery->metal casting route. Although the machinery slingshot will be difficult, it is worth the try. If it looks like Astro is needed, then picking up the Great Library will accelerate it with its GP bonus.

As for the turn order, has one been posted? I can either play this weekend or have to wait till end-of-August.

Alone on an island start. It looks food poor as Ungy pointed out. Pop rushing the granaries will help a lot. I like the pottery->metal casting route. Although the machinery slingshot will be difficult, it is worth the try. If it looks like Astro is needed, then picking up the Great Library will accelerate it with its GP bonus.

As for the turn order, has one been posted? I can either play this weekend or have to wait till end-of-August.

how about...

TDK - played
Mdy - played
llib_rm - up next
mboza
kkev
ungy (away next week)

There is definitely an island between Qin and the continent, as you can see a coast tile. Good eyes!
I think the most important thing right now is to confirm if we need Astronomy or not. If we need Astronomy we will have to develop our island quite a bit to develop the necessary core to research Astronomy. On the other hand, if we don't need Astronomy, we should prepare an attack on Saladin/Qin immediately after we get Iron Working and Sailing, and make due with the lands we conquer.
I would switch to Fishing(4 turns) and immediately build a work boat for exploration, and then complete The Wheel and Pottery. In my opinion, Granaries for whipping and Cottages are more important than Iron Working which can easily wait until after Pottery.

A few more points:
-I would move the worker south and build the gold mine or, if it stays, make sure the chop goes into a work boat.
-I think we should send the scout to the south-east corner of our island where it can reveal one more tile and maybe spot the Greeks.

[edit:] Ha! Cross post but we came up with an identical list.
Liib_rm, we haven't agreed on a play order, so I guess it looks like this so far:
TDK (played)
mdy (played)
Liib_rm (up!)
mboza (on deck)
kkev (warming up)
Ungy (away for a week)

TDK

I played a little on the practice game. (Thanks!)

The first barb city appeared in 1330 BC. It formed two squares away from a goody hut. Also, it looks like one can tell what the villagers are researching. When selecting the next technology there are some that are partially researched, then the villagers "gift" it to me a few urns later.

I got the save and will play today or tomorrow.

The first barb city appeared in 1330 BC. It formed two squares away from a goody hut
Interesting. I always assumed the cities grew out of huts but the testimony from several players in this thread clearly demonstrates otherwise.

Also, it looks like one can tell what the villagers are researching. When selecting the next technology there are some that are partially researched, then the villagers "gift" it to me a few urns later.
Liib_rm, what do you mean? What we know so far is that barbs will research like any normal civ(normally researching the same tech we do), and on top of that they will get beakers on every tech known by other civs at the rate of 1-3%/turn depending on the number of civs already knowing the tech. Have you discovered something more?

Please let us know when you have a plan for the upcoming turn set.

TDK

Liib_rm, what do you mean? What we know so far is that barbs will research like any normal civ(normally researching the same tech we do), and on top of that they will get beakers on every tech known by other civs at the rate of 1-3%/turn depending on the number of civs already knowing the tech.
Have you discovered something more?



Look at the science screen and check out the beakers for each tech. There are many techs that have been partially researched.

Unless I am mistaken, we are accumulating the research from the barbs ourselves and can track the progress. Is this something new?

Please let us know when you have a plan for the upcoming turn set.


Research:
Switch to fishing->pottery or fishing->sailing to enable coastal trade routes, any thoughts?

Builds:
queue warrior, worker->fishing boat (queue worker once fishing completes)

Expansion:
Create the rice/gold city on blue dot, mine gold ASAP

Unless I am mistaken, we are accumulating the research from the barbs ourselves and can track the progress. Is this something new? No, we knew that. We are teamed with the barbs so we share all research.

I would go Fishing and then Pottery, we need half price Granaries and cottages more than foreign trade.

queue warrior, worker->fishing boat (queue worker once fishing completes)
I'm ok with this. You might consider putting the shields accumulated while researching Fishing into a Barracks instead of a Worker to let the city grow some. I don't know what's more efficient.

Llib, could you keep an eye out for barb activity e.g. which civs we might sign peace with to increase preassure on the remaining enemies.

One more thing, I would suggest that we let the team know how many beakers are added to various techs by the barbs on the last turn of our respective sets? It might help us determine what tech to research next and what to leave to the barbs.

Good luck.

TDK

I would go wheel-fishing-pottery as well. Cottages will be more useful than coastal trade routes.

It might be worth making peace with Qin/Saladin. They have small continents so the barbs won`t hurt them much. This should make it easier for us to conquer them.

I would go Fishing and then Pottery, we need half price Granaries and cottages more than foreign trade.


I was thinking internal trade routes to save worker time building roads through the jungle to the gold. But if we are going for a machinery slingshot, there is little time for a diversion.

It might be worth making peace with Qin/Saladin. They have small continents so the barbs won`t hurt them much. This should make it easier for us to conquer them.
I agree that we should probably make peace with Saladin. It might give him more room to build wonders and such and he is probably our first target. I would stay at war with Qin, that guy is dangerous(financial, Industrious!), and we will want to slow him down.
On the continent, I was thinking making peace with 2 civs will mean twice as many barbarians for the remaining civs. We could even make peace with 3 civs and send all the barbs against the fourth! I don't know how far the barbs will travel though? I think we should start by making peace with Isabella and Cyrus and see what happens - Rome and India looks like they are more central and they should attract all the barbs between them. We can always redeclare on the others if necessary.

TDK

I played twenty turns, and here is the save:
http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm5/One_Short_Straw_SG005_BC1960_01.Civ4SavedGame

In short:
We settled the rice-gold city on the blue spot. Another settler is being built.

We are researching pottery, we finished wheel, made a one turn detour to pick up agriculture, and was given hunting.

The work boat is out exploring. There are two islands to the north, one looks nice. The boat is currently exploring an island to the southeast of the capital.

The barbs are wrecking havoc through all the terrain improvements and took down Damascas. Salidan refuses to make peace.

The gory details:

Turn 51, 2470 BC: You have discovered Fishing!

Turn 52, 2440 BC: Cyrus adopts Slavery!

Turn 55, 2350 BC: Beshbalik has been founded.
Turn 55, 2350 BC: You have trained a Work Boat in Karakorum. Work has now begun on a Barracks.

Turn 56, 2320 BC: You have discovered The Wheel!

Turn 65, 2050 BC: You have discovered Agriculture!
Turn 65, 2050 BC: Tokugawa adopts Slavery!
Turn 65, 2050 BC: Damascus has been captured by the Barbarian State!!!
Turn 65, 2050 BC: Damascus has been razed by the Barbarian State!!!

Turn 67, 1990 BC: You have discovered Hunting!

The barbs are wrecking havoc through all the terrain improvements and took down Damascas. Salidan refuses to make peace.



It looks like he will make peace now, but is it worth it? It looks like a city on the island will need a border pop to reach Qin so Saladin is the obvious first target.

The next city could be founded at green cross to give us copper. After the settler is built we can finish barracks/garanry in the capital.

After pottery is finished I suggest we go for ironworking for swords/chopping.

On the continent, I was thinking making peace with 2 civs will mean twice as many barbarians for the remaining civs. We could even make peace with 3 civs and send all the barbs against the fourth! I don't know how far the barbs will travel though?

Will this help us? This would cripple 2 civs at the expense of making 2 civs much more powerful. Defeating 2 powerful civs will probably be much more difficult than 4 medium sized civs.

Llib_rm, I'm a bit surprised you didn't mine the gold as that was part of your pre-turn plan and the reason we built that city. That city is only a drag without a worker and we would have been better off not building it at all. Instead we have been building roads?!?
I also think it's strange that you decided to cancel the almost complete warrior. We now have no garrison unit and the 15 hammers originally invested in the warrior are gone.

Will this help us? This would cripple 2 civs at the expense of making 2 civs much more powerful. Defeating 2 powerful civs will probably be much more difficult than 4 medium sized civs. I don't think we have a choice. I would remind you that we already have war weariness that will only get worse, especially if we don't start doing better in the battles.
I think India is a good candidate for peace:
-They have only one city on a hill.
-They have religion to protect their cities.
-Peace with India would mean a concentrated attack on Cyrus, whom is the only civ with Stone, maybe we can capture a world wonder? Cyrus' capital is also the only one not on a hill.
I think we should really take a shot at Cyrus, right now there are 6 axemen just waiting to go at him. I think we should even consider making peace with Tokugawa and Isabella as well. We can always redeclare if we don't like what we see.

Qin looks like he has strong upgrades, maybe we should make peace with him also?

I agree on mdy's city site and I agree we need Iron Working next. I agree we should build Granary ASAP.

I guess these are the cities we need. Can the next player send the scout to the greenish city site, please. We need to know if there is a "bridge" to the Greeks.
http://img181.imageshack.us/img181/8292/sgotm5barb2et5.jpg

TDK

Llib_rm, I'm a bit surprised you didn't mine the gold as that was part of your pre-turn plan and the reason we built that city.


Yes it was part of the plan, but I wanted to save the forest chop for the work boat. Therefore, the worker need to stay a few turns. I thought exploring quickly was a higher priority than getting the gold hooked up.

In hindsight, the gold could not be used immediately anyway. The new city is relatively food poor and would need the rice irrigated to work the gold. The gold would not increase our happiness unless it is connected. Since we agreed to pass on sailing (coastal trade routes) the roads were the next best option.

Ok, I understand, but still disagree on some of your decisions.

This is my take on it:
A gold mine grants a lot of trade, which was the primary reason for building the city. The fact is we could have had a size 2 city working a gold mine and the rice, and we would still have had time to chop the forest. The city would have grown to size 2 at about the same time the worker completed the chop and mine.
Instead we have a deficit city and, well, 3 roads...

TDK

I don't think we have a choice. I would remind you that we already have war weariness that will only get worse, especially if we don't start doing better in the battles.


Unfortunatly Qin, Tagawa, and Izzy will not take peace at the moment. We can make peace with Asoka though so may be we should do that to limit war weariness. It looks like no barbs are going to spawn on Alexanders island so we may as well make peace with him as well.

I guess these are the cities we need

I agree with all those city sites. I would also add the two in the screenshot below at some point, though I would not found any more cities after the copper one until iron working/mysticism have been discovered.

Got the save.

1) Plan is for Karakorum to build the settler for the bronze city (15 turns). Queued is a barracks (56/90), and a warrior (0/22). I think whipping is pointless until size 3, or AH and replacing the mined pigs. When the settler completes, should I finish the barracks, or just start a granary? Choice is probably barracks-warrior/archer/axe-granary, or granary-barracks-axe. Probably build a cottage for Karakorum while waiting for the settler.

2) Beshbalik will complete a worker in 10 turns. Not worth sending the other worker down now, as he will be needed to mine the copper. (7 turns to walk down to the gold, 6 to get back to the copper). Will start a granary.

3) Will research pottery then switch to iron. Figure that we can wait for the barbs to get AH.

4) I am sure there is a possible culture bridge to Greece, but will divert the wb to confirm.

5) Aim to get Alex, Asoka to make peace.
That patch of ice should generate a steady stream against Qin, but I guess we could try to make peace and just let the barbs accumulate for later?

I would stay at war with Saladin for a while yet, see what happens after the fall of Damascus. It would be nice if he got some wonders, but on the other hand I think the barbs could pin him down for a while yet. Again, could we make peace, let 5 or 6 barbs spawn, and then declare? Saladin is a dead end, so perhaps we should either go for him before we can attack anyone else, or see what the barbs can do for us.

Similarly for Cyrus, I would let the barbs rage for a while longer.

4) I am sure there is a possible culture bridge to Greece, but will divert the wb to confirm.
You could also just send a scout, it can reveal another sea tile.
1) Plan is for Karakorum to build the settler for the bronze city (15 turns). Queued is a barracks (56/90), and a warrior (0/22). I think whipping is pointless until size 3, or AH and replacing the mined pigs. When the settler completes, should I finish the barracks, or just start a granary? Choice is probably barracks-warrior/archer/axe-granary, or granary-barracks-axe.
I would whip the settler when possible and then whip the granary when possible. IMO, there is no better place to put our hammers than a Granary. After that we could build some warriors while the copper is still not connected.
Similarly for Cyrus, I would let the barbs rage for a while longer. Yeah, I think he is our best chance of getting a wonder. I would also make peace with Toku and Isa if possible, see what that does to Cyrus.

TDK

I think whipping is pointless until size 3, or AH and replacing the mined pigs.

I would whip the settler when possible and then whip the granary when possible. IMO, there is no better place to put our hammers than a Granary. After that we could build some warriors while the copper is still not connected.


I agree with TDK. Once the bananas are farmed we will be able to regrow in 8.5 turns, costing us 25.5 hammers. Whipping gains us 44 hammers, so we will get the settler and granary out quicker with whipping. Once the granary is built I agree we should grow to size 3.

Doh, you are of course right about the whipping.

turn 0, 1960 BC - sign peace with Alex, Asoka, send scout to SE corner.

turn 5 1810 BC: barb axe outside each of Mecca and Medina, one unpromoted archer in each. But the barbs are pillaging. Scout of SE corner of our island revealed nothing, and the wb has reached the end of the island.

turn 7 1750 BC: discover Pottery, start Iron Working (49 turns). Barbs failed to take Medina or Mecca, but now have a stack outside Barcelona! Axe, archer x 2 and a warrior, against a 2.5/3 archer.

turn 8, 1720 BC: Our allies have captured Barcelona, for the loss of an axe and archer. Finish farm, whip settler. Our allies are researching AH

turn 11: 1630 BC: Oracle built in China. What were we going to slingshot?
turn 12, 1600 BC: Izzy asks for peace, because Madrid is beset on all sides. Refused. Build Turfan beside copper.

turn 13: 1570 BC: Saladin adopts Slavery.
turn 14: 1540 BC: Asoka adopts Slavery.

turn 16, 1480 BC: Animal Husbandry, discover Horses 1S of Karakorum.
turn 17, 1450 BC: Whip granary in Karakorum.
turn 18, 1420 BC: Built granary, overflow into barracks. Gold mine built, 3 turns till Beshbalik reaches size 2 working the rice, or 9 turns to build a granary working the mine. Figure that we might as well time the rice farm with the granary build, and earn some bulbs towards IW.
turn 19: 1390 BC: barbs lose 3 units to archer in Pasargardae.

turn 20: 1360 BC: Barb archer on island between us and Greece confirms possibility of culture bridge. Karakorum builds barracks, start archer. Our wb is in position to scout round Saladin, but perhaps we do not want to tell him where we are?

Turn 68, 1960 BC: You have made peace with Alexander!
Turn 68, 1960 BC: You have made peace with Asoka!

Turn 74, 1780 BC: You have discovered Pottery!

Turn 75, 1750 BC: The borders of Karakorum have expanded!
Turn 75, 1750 BC: Barcelona has been captured by the Barbarian State!!!

Turn 76, 1720 BC: You have trained a Settler in Karakorum. Work has now begun on a Granary.

Turn 79, 1630 BC: The Oracle has been built in a far away land!

Turn 80, 1600 BC: Turfan has been founded.
Turn 80, 1600 BC: Saladin adopts Slavery!

Turn 81, 1570 BC: Asoka adopts Slavery!

Turn 83, 1510 BC: You have discovered Animal Husbandry!

Turn 85, 1450 BC: You have constructed a Granary in Karakorum. Work has now begun on a Barracks.

Suggested plan:
Worker is roading from Turfan to Karakorum, we do not have the pop to work any more improvements, and we should have time to develop the horses, or a cottage before Karakorum reaches size 3. No whipping for a while, but we can build archers/axemen before resuming the settlers. Turfan has a square that can be cottaged before IW.

Good set!

IMO, we should not connect the copper and instead cancel the archer and build 1-2 warriors in the capital while it grows.

I would retreat the work boat from Arabia.

I think we should make peace with Izzy as soon as we can, she is crippled but has only two hill cities left. It would also help secure Barcelona. We might be able to do it in 2 turns(10 turns since Izzy asked).

I think we should attack Greece first. It would give us a central springboard with whipping potential(presumably, there is seafood there). As I see it, the AI has been very lightly defended so far(1-2 units in each city, maybe they are ignoring being at war with us because they don't know where we are, or maybe they are treating us as part of barbs?). Alex's units have not fought barbs and are thus unpromoted and he might even have cities with just one Phalanx unit. He should easily succumb to a "below the horizon" axe attack.

A plan:
We switch to Sailing now. I would propose that we switch Beshbalik to the Rice and when it grows we switch to a settler. The worker can chop the forests to hurry it. We build greek "bridge" city(1SW of greenish site, right?) and immediately have the worker chop an Obelisk. In the meantime, our other cities raises axes and when sailing comes in, galleys. Then we attack...

I was thinking:
Turn 0:Start Sailing.
Turn 3: Beshbalik grows. We switch to settler.
Turn 16: Sailing->Iron
Turn 18: Settler completes.
Turn 20: Build "bridge" city.
Turn 21: Chop Obelisk
Turn 36: "bridge" ready, fleet sails

TDK

I agree with TDK`s plan to attack the Greeks if we can find a weak city. Alex founded Hindism so we will probably have to delay taking his capital though.

I would make peace with Saladin - it is clear the barbs are only going to give him free xp and us more war weariness. Unfortunatly Izzy is currently asking for a city for peace so we will have to continue fighting her, but we should make peace if she changes her mind.

I agree with making 3 warriors for MP before hooking up the copper.

looking good...

i will have a closer look at the save and plans for the next set of turns tomorrow and play on saturday...after further discussion:;)

I suspect peace with everyone bar Alex is the way to go. Apart from Barcelona, the barbs had a couple of other interesting attacks, but got nowhere. Qin has a CD3 archer in his NW city, so the barbs are not getting anywhere.

Are the barbs going to spawn cities? If so, when? I played the test game only until early AD, and it lacked the open continent, so I saw none there.

But the invade Greece plan sounds good. I just wonder how big the greek island is, considering that not even an animal spawned on it.

I suspect peace with everyone bar Alex is the way to go.
I agree, except for Cyrus, we should definitely stay at war with him. He should be completing the Stonehenge soon and he has cities that are not on hills.

TDK

OK back in town and should be around for a while.

I agree about the peace w/ all but Cyrus if/when we can get it.

I'm not too wild about hurrying to Alex. Seems to me he's on a really small continent--maybe only 2 cities. Seems unlikely that they would be weak as what else can he realistically build but units? He doesn't have writing and I believe if he had sailing we'd have a few beakers dribbling in. If we succeed, then we pick up a couple of high maitenance cities and probably have difficulty doing much on the main continent anyway. Especially since we have increased tech cost.

We definately need the culture bridge, and it definately looks like we can get to the main continent from there so I think it makes sense to go for Alex first and leave Sal for later. I just think it's better to build our base and use cats. Since he's so small it's unlikely he'll get LB before we take him out.

As long as Alexanders capital is not on a hill we should be able to take it if we can get a force of 8 axes to it quickly. If it is on a hill or has an unusually high number of defenders then we will have to abort the raid. The capital should start paying for itself pretty quickly, Any other city which won`t can be raised. This is a risk but I think it is worth taking.

As long as Alexanders capital is not on a hill we should be able to take it if we can get a force of 8 axes to it quickly. If it is on a hill or has an unusually high number of defenders then we will have to abort the raid. The capital should start paying for itself pretty quickly, Any other city which won`t can be raised. This is a risk but I think it is worth taking.

I agree this could work, although I would add to the risk the chance that the capital has walls. Put the hill+walls+extra units+bad RNG together and my guess is we're talking about something in the neighborhood of even money at best.

We need a force then of 8 axes and 4 galleys--I think less galleys is a mistake. That is 710 hammers worth of units built in our 3 cities--plus the settler (less a galley made in the bridge city). So around 800 hammers which I don't think is doable in the 30 turns until sailing time on TDK's schedule.

This will totally crash our commerce, as the bridge city is crap and none too close. So if we are successful I think we'll be OK--as Athens should pay for itself and may have a goody or two. However, if not I think we are really screwed, as it will take a lot of turns to figure that out out. Then what do we do with the force if it isn't enough?

I just think the gain isn't worth it, as we clearly will have to stop there (I would assume the continent would be mostly filled in by then). I confess I tend to the conservative so I'll get behind it if that's the consensus but my vote would be to build the clam/stone city first and develop our cities a bit and plan to attack with cats.

got the save

from the discussion above and from a look at the state of play at the moment, it seems like the plan is...

- build warriors in karakorum while growing to size 3.

- stop the worker who is connecting the copper and send him to pasture the horses outside karakorum

- time beshablik to grow to size 2 when granary is built, then chop a settler

- start building axes in turfan when granary is completed

- switch to sailing then follow it up with iron working

- make peace with izzy/saladin asap

unless anyone has any major disagreements with this i'll play tomorrow

start building axes in turfan when granary is completed We should complete a Barracks before we start axes.

time beshablik to grow to size 2 when granary is built, then chop a settler The plan above calls for working the Rice for 3 turns thus growing the city, then immediately switch to a settler. We can't really use the Granary while building the settler so the Granary can definitely wait.

TDK

I agree this could work, although I would add to the risk the chance that the capital has walls. Put the hill+walls+extra units+bad RNG together and my guess is we're talking about something in the neighborhood of even money at best.



The capital will have a 60% cultural defence by the time we get to it so walls are irrelevant. If it is on a hill or he has an unexpectadly high number of units we would have to abort, this would certainly slow our economic development down significantly, but it wouldn`t completly destroy the economy. If it suceeds we would get a major boost. We won`t know for sure whether this is worth it until we are ready to attack. In a SP game I would probably wait for swords/cats, but we are trying to win as qucikly as possible and this requires a few calculated risks.

So around 800 hammers which I don't think is doable in the 30 turns until sailing time on TDK's schedule.



I think we could get it only a few more turns if we chopped all our forests, whipped wherever possible and upgraded some of our warriors to axes.

We should complete a Barracks before we start axes.

I agree with this. I would suggest we leave our units unpromoted until we see what kind of opposition we are up against. One other thing that occurs to me is that this plan does not require an early iron working, so we could switch to writing for the science boost after we have discovered sailing.

I think we could get it only a few more turns if we chopped all our forests, whipped wherever possible and upgraded some of our warriors to axes.

upgrading warriors to axes is very expensive at this stage of the game--and certainly at cross purposes with delaying hooking up the copper.

I do agree with taking risks as we are in a competition, we just disagree on the cost benefits here.

I'm not really convinced, but as I really have no good feel for this game I certainly don't want to hold up the plan if the consensus is to go that way.

One other thing that occurs to me is that this plan does not require an early iron working, so we could switch to writing for the science boost after we have discovered sailing.

An argument against the plan is that if we skip the rush we could go writing--whip lib, and run 2 sci. Then use the GS to bulb math. Not the greatest use I admit, but a big boost if the plan is to try and win with construction and nothing more.

Ungy, I understand your reservations about this plan but I'm with mdy on the risk/benefit analysis. I think we will have trouble winning this game if we wait for cats before attacking and Alex's location seems to be the strategic center of gravity on this map. Our own island is so weak that we can't wait for it to be developed properly, so I don't see any other way out.

The capital will have a 60% cultural defense by the time we get to it so walls are irrelevant
According to my calculations, Athens should only reach 60% culture defense in 45 turns from now, so maybe that should be our deadline(I don't know if the palace will go legendary and double it's culture output at some point?). If another city founded Hinduism, we will face 2 culture 40% cities.
If the Greeks look like they can't be beat -and I doubt that- we could consider sending the army to the continent and make some coordinated attacks with the barbs. There are 3 gold resources on the western end of the continent that should be settled at that time, that seems like a good contingency plan to me.

TDK

According to my calculations, Athens should only reach 60% culture defense in 45 turns from now, so maybe that should be our deadline(I don't know if the palace will go legendary and double it's culture output at some point?).

The palace doesn`t double it`s culture. Getting a big enough force there in 45 turns there may not be possible though. A 60% cultural defense could probably be overcome as long as the city is not heavily defended or on a hill though. The 3 gold city would be a good backup if the AI founds it in a suitable place.

upgrading warriors to axes is very expensive at this stage of the game--and certainly at cross purposes with delaying hooking up the copper.


I agree. The only reason to build warriors is to provide cheap military police, but the only city we have which will need one soon is the capital. So we should probably hook the copper up ASAP.

I would think the odds of taking Athens are as good with 6 axes vs. 40% as 8 axes vs. 60%(can we make meaningful tests?). But no need to decide on that right now.

I agree we should connect the copper, either now or after we build 1 warrior.

I will be away until Saturday, good luck all!

TDK

Only problem is that we have no way of what Alex's lands look like until we can get a galley over. So I would argue that the top priority has to be a bridge city, regardless of what it costs in upkeep, and we should have as many pairs of axes in galleys waiting for the culture as we can sensibly manage. We do not have much int the way of infrastructure to build at the moment anyway. Open borders with Alex is going to be difficult, so essentially we need to remove Athens as an obstacle as fast as possible.

We can watch out for the barbs revealling Alex's borders, to see how fast Athens is gaining culture. Hinduism was founded in 2980, 17 turns in? Unless the other civs started with settlers, figure Athens to be a holy city. If it is on a hill, or packed with defenders, we just need to take/raze Sparta, and pillage everything, or continue on to Osaka/Persepolis.

Alternative would be to rush towards the chinese bridge site, and try and crush Qin while building yet more axemen for Greece. Timeline looks much the same, though we need to be ready to rush the galley as soon as sailing comes in, and have the settler ready for it. Karakorum cannot do both, so we would be a couple of turns behind.

sorry about the delay in playing. RL interfering with Civ time unfortunately:rolleyes: . seems like there had been quite a bit of discussion in the meantime though. i played up until sailing. here's the turnset

turn 0 - 1360 BC - sent the workboat to go and explore the few areas of darkness that it could reach.
IBT -
turn 1 - 1330 BC - sailing is now 33 turns away cos of switching from the gold to rice
IBT
turn 2 - 1300BC - worker sent to pasture horse. saladin agrees to peace!
IBT
turn 3 - 1270BC - Beshablik grows to size 2 - switch to settler and start working the gold tile. sailing research time is now down to 16turns. barbs are getting nowhere attacking madrid, just giving izzy free upgrades. she still wants beshablik in a peace treaty.
IBT
turn 4 - 1240BC - turfan finishes granary. switch to barracks
IBT
turn 5 - 1210BC - barbarian warriors still suiciding themselves against archers in madrid, you gotta admire their dedication...
IBT - Judaism founded in Seville - Seville and Madrid are both on hills and are now both going to have plenty of cultural protection
turn 6 - 1180BC - Karakorum grows to size two, which is its happiness cap at the moment cos of whipping and WW
IBT - Izzy adopts organised religion
turn 7 - 1150 BC - Worker has completed irrigating the rice and is sent to chop a forest
IBT -
turn 8 - 1120BC - Worker finishes pasturing the horse. Switch Karakorum to horse to slow growth and increase production
IBT -
turn 9 - 1090BC - Turfan grows to size 2
IBT
turn 10 - 1060BC -
IBT
turn 11 - 1030BC - worker connects copper. karakorum now has a warrior garrison and starts on axeman. WW is really starting to hurt, but no-one will sign a peace treaty. All the cities are at their happy cap at size 2. worker sent south to help with connecting gold for happiness and chopping duties
IBT
turn 12 - 1000BC -
IBT
turn 13 - 985BC - Learn masonry from our barbarian allies. Turfan completes barracks and starts on axeman. Karakorum grows to 3, but has 1 unhappy pop cos of our 'cruel oppression'. hopefully WW won't have increased by the time this wears off
IBT
turn 14 - 970BC - Edo *just* survives a barb attack with one archer left in the city on 0.5
IBT - We have discovered the secrets of mysticism
turn 15 - 955BC
IBT
turn 16 - 940BC - worker completes the road to the gold. next turn sailing will complete and the streets of karkorum will be flooded in precious metals, making the citizens happy once again
IBT
turn 17 - 925BC - sailing completes. rioting stops in karakorum. switch to iron working.

i stopped here...no-one will make peace unless we throw a city in. WW is up to 2 already, so suggest we make peace with everyone except one (Cyrus?) as soon as they will agree to it.

I hooked up the gold before chopping the second forest near Beshablik because we badly need happiness. there are two workers down there who are ready to chop the last forest and start working the new city.

we've got a couple of axemen on the way and we can start building galleys now. the barbs are proving useful for techs and they're doing a lot of pillaging too, but i don't think they're going to take any more cities.

get the save here - http://gotm.civfanatics.net/submit/civ4sgotm_submission_list.php

War Weariness is clearly going to be a major problem. This reinforces my belief that we need to go after Alex soon, it is the only way we will be able to intervene on the continent. He has built stonehenge for us, and if we are lucky he wiil be building another wonder. If we are lucky he may have some happy resources for us as well.

So I would whip the settler and build a monument in the bridge city immediatly. If we then micrimange whipping/chopping of galleys in gold city and galleys/axes in the other three I think we can get a force of 8 axes +4 galleys ready to sail in 25-26 turns. With a gold mine maintenance in the new city will be manageable.

I suggest we research writing after iron working.

If Athens is too heavily defended or on a hill we could either try and go after Qin or proceed to the big continent to try to end some of the wars.

OK--got it.

I agree WW is our main problem here. I'm actually kind of surprised that we can't get peace and that the barbs keep spawning warriors. Maybe when they settle some cities that will increase the power graph and help get peace.
If we can't get peace pretty soon we will self destruct.

Although I'm not too optimistic about our chances for rushing Alex, I do agree completely that we have to get over to the main continent to get some peace, and we should have the option of keeping on sailing if he's too tough.
The fact the he sunk a bunch of hammers into SH bodes well for our rush chances.

As for whipping the settler, that makes 9 turns of not working the gold. I'll try to calculate what we can get out assuming no more WW. Karakorum can do 2 pop whips but I think all the rest are 1 pop whips. If we don't whip then we get settler in 7 bridge city in say 9, monument in 16, bridge in 31. It takes about 6 turns for units to get to bridge so if it takes 25 turns or more to build the army then I think don't whip the settler.

Looking at a 25 turn horizon, we need 8 axe and 4 galley for 710h. We have 60h done so 650h. Turfan can be whipped 3 times for 1 pop and Kara twice for 2. Ideally we would get a galley out of the bridge city which is I think just doable (maybe a turn off). So that makes 310h + galley which is 385. That leaves all production in Kara and Turfan + Beshbalik which is about 12h/turn or 300h in Besh and Turf. So we get it done in 25t without anything from Besh. Really ideal in Besh is to not whip until we get the gran up and it's about to grow to 3--then we don't lose one of the good tiles. Besh could still contribute a galley with this program.

I think I will skip the whip in Besh but road to the bridge city to save a turn. I think we should make every effort to keep the gold working.

If we get another WW increase this plan will not work but then I think we are in trouble.

I'll play late tonight so please post comments.

If Athens is too heavily defended or on a hill we could either try and go after Qin or proceed to the big continent to try to end some of the wars.
problem I see with Qin is we need a culture bridge there as well. So would be another 30 or so turns. I don't think that works. I would assume we go to the continent.

I agree that going to the main continent would be better than going after Qin if Alex is to strong to take on. The barbs should start spawning swords once we get iron working - hopefully this will stop warriors spawning.

OK here we go
925 BC inherited turn. decide not to rush settler but to build road to city site.
whip axe in Turfan-axe
910...
895...
880 axe in Kara-galley
it occurs to me that we may have erred in our plans for getting peace. If we went alpha my guess is we could get peace for tech. However, at this point my guess is alpha would be too late. I'll continue with original plan.
865 Peace with Izzie! WW is down.
850 MM Kara--with happy can grow before whipping 2 pop as there are 3 good tiles to work.
835...
820 Besh settler-gran. Niinghsia founded-obilisk.
805...
790...
775..
760 Kara axe-galley(whip 2 pop)
745...
730 Besh gran-galley. Whip axe in Turfan.
715 Ning-hsia obilisk-galley.
700...
685 Turfan axe-axe(although this is axe #9) hmm WW back up.
670...
655 iron in research writing at 0%. We have iron by Ninghsia! Switch Kara to galley
640 Whip galley in Kara-2pop
625 Kara galley-axe.


Invasion force of 8 axes and 4 galleys will be ready to sail when border pops in Ning-hsi. Galley in Besh needs to be whipped in ideally 4 turns and galley in Ning-hsi needs to be whipped 2 turns before the border pop as it should be moved out one before the pop. Axe under construction in Kara+axe in Kara go with galley.

No peace to be had.

Alex is unfortunately higher in power than izzie or asoka.

couple of barb swords spawn--1 on main continent.

Discussion points:
1. should we keep the scout to fogbust to prevent city spawn?

2. More importantly--what should we be building? We could build units for reinforcements or settlers for the stone/clam. Another possible site is down by the fish/silver.

I would suggest next player plays until we start the war and stops if there is a decision to be made about the rush on Athens.

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm5/One_Short_Straw_SG005_BC0625_01.Civ4SavedGame

I took a quick look at the discussion, looks like you guys did a great job! I'll be back home on Sunday evening ready to play!

TDK

Alex is unfortunately higher in power than izzie or asoka.


I think this is due to the waekness of Izzy/Asoka than Aleaxnaders strength. Our power rating is much higher than his.

Discussion points:
1. should we keep the scout to fogbust to prevent city spawn?

2. More importantly--what should we be building? We could build units for reinforcements or settlers for the stone/clam. Another possible site is down by the fish/silver.

I would suggest next player plays until we start the war and stops if there is a decision to be made about the rush on Athens.


I don`t think the scout will prevent city spawn so we may as well disband it.

Once we have built our initial force I would build a settler for stone/clams in the capital and swords in the other citys. If possible we should try to get a sword or two in our initial attack force. Once the settler is built in the capital we might consider building a library.

I agree with pausing when a decision on attacking Athens needs to be taken.

good work on getting the invasion force ready to go.

agree that we should build a settler, we've still got a lot of land on our continent that we can start building on now that we've got iron working to clear the jungle. speaking of which, another worker or two would be useful to start chopping and cottaging.

8 axes should be enough to take a least a city or two, exact battle details depend on whether alex has got bronze hooked up.

i suggest writing and alphabet next. we may be able to tech trade with some of the civs that we are at peace with.

If possible we should try to get a sword or two in our initial attack force. Once the settler is built in the capital we might consider building a library.

Unfortunately the attack force is ready to go and I don't think a delay is worth it so I would go as is rather than build swords.

I think we should build a settler in capital and worker in Turfan next. We have a spare axe in Turfan and can whip reinforcements if necessary. Since we really don't know what we're getting into, I think better to keep some development going.

If we can get to alpha we can likely get peace by giving tech.

I like writing for sure--that will take us through this next set, then either alpha or math-con. Whatever we do take research to 0 after writing and build at least a lib in capital and maybe 2.

I read some discussion that indicated that we wouldn't be able to tech trade because of our partner's poor relations with all the AI. If tech trading is possible, or if we can't get peace then alpha for sure.

One thing I missed and I think the next up should do is get the rice hooked up and gift it to Sal to boost relations.

I read some discussion that indicated that we wouldn't be able to tech trade because of our partner's poor relations with all the AI. If tech trading is possible, or if we can't get peace then alpha for sure.

For tech trading purposes the AI`s attitude is the average of ours and the barbs. They are permanantly furious with the barbs, so when they are at cautious with us they will trade as if annoyed, and we will have to become friendly with them for them to trade as cautious. Given that we already have a -3 for declaring war this will be very difficult. This means there is no realistic prospect of tech trading in the near future.

If an AI is reluctant to make peace an alternative would be either to take one of their cities and then gift it back if they still won`t take peace, or to build a city we don`t need on the big continent, and then give this to them. This would allow us to tech to catapults quicker, as well as slowing down the AI tech pace.

One thing I missed and I think the next up should do is get the rice hooked up and gift it to Sal to boost relations.

This will only strengthen Saladin without making any useful improvement in our relations with him.

This will only strengthen Saladin without making any useful improvement in our relations with him.
does the tech trading work the same as OB would? If so I agree as we will never get to pleased. If not, we could likely get to cautious and get the OB.

I'm back.
Plan is to build 1 settler and swords to replenish any losses to the task force. Maybe also a worker more. Research Writing. What city would you prefer?
-China bridge to the north would be a strong whipping machine and could almost singlehandedly built a force to take on China.
-Stone-clam, solid city, unnecessary IMO.
-Silver-fish, silver would be nice(especially if we pop Metal Casting...)

Will pause when we come to battle decisions.

Kkev, I'm generally against developing our own island too much as the investment will only pay off after we should win the game. Our investments in army/navy sets our course firmly towards conquest rather than development.

I think our expansion policy needs to reflect what we think we need to win the game. The AI are backward now due to our friends gimping their early development but they will start moving ahead soon. Unfortunately we're accumulating +mutual struggle bonuses so they should trade tech pretty freely once they get alpha.

We are a long way from taking on the main continent. If we are sucessfull in rushing Alex (less than 50% IMHO), that obviously will help a lot. I think it's clear we will need cats at the minimum to win this. We are just a long way from them and the clock is ticking. Unfortunately we are also a long way from cats and we rate to slide way behind in tech.

Another question we have to answer is dom or conquest?
Depending on how many cities the barbs form dom might be easier (assuming we have SH here).

We are not well placed to go far down the tech tree and I don't see ivory, so we could very well fail if the AI get too far ahead. My guess is we should try to win with cats. We should be able to progress against the monarch AI unless they get rifles if we have enough units.

I would actually vote for building two cities--the clam/stone and the silver/stone/fish. The use of the silver is obvious--and the other is a solid useful city that will definately pay off. We have a WB to get the clam working immediately, and we have the option to use the stone to build pyramids for cash. It's a pretty good producer out the gate, and we will need lots of hammers to win this game. More decent cities=more hammers.
I would wait on Qin--I don't think it's wise at this point to take on multple fronts.

.
If an AI is reluctant to make peace an alternative would be either to take one of their cities and then gift it back if they still won`t take peace, or to build a city we don`t need on the big continent, and then give this to them. This would allow us to tech to catapults quicker, as well as slowing down the AI tech pace.


this is a good backup plan--if we get lucky taking the one city could get us peace and then we could gift the other to the other AI to get peace with them.

I played some turns. We are outside Athens with 8 axes in a forest. Athens is not on a hill. Alex got lucky with a chariot and retreated from one axe, cheating us of 1 xp. So one axe is at 4.7. The other axes have 23.1% vs. the best archer. There are 4 archers(1 is brand new, 1 was outside so 2 of them are not fortified), 1 chariot(0.9) and 1 scout.
http://img118.imageshack.us/img118/6292/sgotm5athensbe8.jpg

Other important events: Alex built the Kashi in Athens. He also landed a settler+archer on the silver island. Good good...

We should attack, we have good odds of taking it.

TDK

Definately go for it.

With the scout and char we may miss it and take it next turn.

Am I seeing the screen right that Athens is all he's got?

Yes, I think so. Hopefully he will build the silver city for us as well. I will play now... stand by.

[edit] We have Athens, only 2 axes lost!

Alex founded on the island 2 south-west of the hut(fish-stone).

With 6 CR2 axes I am of a mind to continue ASAP and grab Edo(3 gold mines, 1 cattle, 3 flood plains). That should solve our research problem.

I will leave the Greek city for now and await fresh troops from the mainland.

One more piece of info; Cyrus completed the Pyramids at Persepolis.

[edit] Hinduism spread to a Japanese city so maybe we will actually get some cash from the Kashi.

Well, a quite eventful set, we're looking good.

Turn 2: Alex built the Kashi in Athens.

Turn 4: Cyrus completed the Pyramids at Persepolis.

Turn 14: We have Athens, only 2 axes lost!

Turn 20: Hinduism spreads in Karakorum.

Turn 22: We take Satsuma(1 archer, 1 spear) with the help of a barb axe; no losses.

I signed a temporary cease fire agreement with Alex. He should be taken out as soon as the axe and sword reaches the waiting galley. Athens is no good as long as he lives.
We have 4 high level axes on the way to Edo, I was thinking we should sue for peace after we grab that and give him back Satsuma. War weariness is really killing us, I think most of it is from Japan.
I have also landed a worker to construct roadworks and start improving Edo when possible. I was thinking we could build a bridgehead city at the cross.
http://img172.imageshack.us/img172/3765/sgotm5japanta9.jpg

Great going TDK!

Glad you guys didn't let foolish me talk you out of this bold move.

I agree with the plan of taking Edo--I think with 2 gold working it will pay for itself. Also important to take away from Japan.

I also think most of our WW comes from Japan, and they will give peace for Satsuma, which should be done after Edo. Persia will not currently give peace for Satsuma.

I think we should build another settler and raze Sparta and refound 2s to pick up the silver. I don't see our happy issues going away anytime soon so that will really help.

Asoka will give OB at cautious. My guess is that Sal would as well. We could consider gifting him a health resource to improve relations. The trade would be worth 4g/t + any religion spread. I don't think health would help him much as he already has 3 health. Downside is he could find his way to the main continent.

I think it makes sense to send a galley to scout Persepolis. There is chance we could rush that with some sword reinforcements. Worth a look anyway.

My guess is we should take hindu. We should get some spread and just the extra happy in Athens pretty useful.

A couple of nit-pciks: I'd skip the lighthouse in Ninghsia. I don't think it's worth 90h as it really is marginal to grow that type of city anyway. Better get units out now and cap it at 3 (or whip--the whip is I think around a breakeven for those tiles).

I also would have researched math at 0%--no reason to burn through the $.
We are going to pretty well crash when Satsuma--Edo come on line (and Edo will not break even for at least 20 turns or so).
All we do by partially researching math is eliminate the possibility of whipping a lib, building $, bulbing math then researching con at a high %. Or switching to alpha.

Great set TDK!

Excellent news!

I agree with the plan to take Edo and then gift Satsuma to Toagawa, and then to march on Persopolis for the Pyramids.

I would also raise Sparta ASAP, it is not currently worth the upkeep it would cost. I would found the bridge city next where TDK suggested, the other city sites can wait.

I also would have researched math at 0%--no reason to burn through the $.
We are going to pretty well crash when Satsuma--Edo come on line (and Edo will not break even for at least 20 turns or so).
All we do by partially researching math is eliminate the possibility of whipping a lib, building $, bulbing math then researching con at a high %. Or switching to alpha.



I agree, with our slider at 0% we only have +3 gold. I would build librarys in the capital +Beshablik once they have finished their current builds, and then switch our slider to 100%, by which time our economy should have improved. Bulbing maths seems like a waste as it could probably be researched before we could get a GS. We currently have no need for alphabet, instead I suggest trying to generate a GP in Athens, once the barbs have researched monotheism for us it will lightbulb the much more expensive theology which will enable Theocracy for us.


A couple of nit-pciks: I'd skip the lighthouse in Ninghsia. I don't think it's worth 90h as it really is marginal to grow that type of city anyway. Better get units out now and cap it at 3 (or whip--the whip is I think around a breakeven for those tiles).



Agreed, I would use it to incresea our fleet of galleys.

On second thoughts maybe we should put our hammers into swords instead of librarys. What techs will we need to win? Swords can take down almost everything pre longbows. Cats + swords can deal with citys defended by longbows. If we capture a source of ivory we will have a counter to everything until musketmen come along, and they can be overwhelmed by weight of numbers.

So the only essential techs are maths + construction, and maybe theology for theocracy (can be lightbulbed) and code of laws (can also be lightbulbed).

This is probably not worth a library.

Ungy and Mdy, I agree with your points about the lighthouse and the researching.

I also agree with raising Sparta and the plan is definitely to go for Persepolis ASAP. So we should probably send our 2 axes in Satsuma north as soon as possible.

I aslo still think the China "bridge city" is the next one to build, it is close to the capital and commerce rich. We also need to be ready to attack China at short notice, I think the dragon is our greatest rival. I would also be willing to build silver city first, especially if we pop Metal Casting... didum didum.

Bulbing maths seems like a waste as it could probably be researched before we could get a GS
We will pop the barb huts soon enough now that we have the Stonehenge. We might wan't to get a tech like Monotheism out of the way if we can do it cheaply before the huts pop.

We currently have no need for alphabet, instead I suggest trying to generate a GP in Athens, once the barbs have researched monotheism for us it will lightbulb the much more expensive theology which will enable Theocracy for us. Good plan, we should not assign a priest until we know if we pop Theocracy in a hut though. I agree we don't need Alphabet, that would only be usefull if Asoka, Cyrus or Salahedin goes Hindu, then we might have a theoretical chance of trading techs.

Good luck Mdy.

TDK

I agree on not building libraries.

TDK

Another thing to consider, when we hand over Satsuma, will Toku get a free unpromoted archer? We should try and engineer the handover as to give our allies a shot at taking the city.
TDK
They make peace when we do don't they?

So the only essential techs are maths + construction, and maybe theology for theocracy (can be lightbulbed) and code of laws (can also be lightbulbed).
This is probably not worth a library.
Agree with the analysis. However, we are pretty much effectively running 0% science now. If we can get the pyramids I think it makes sense to get a lib or 2 running specs for research.

I agree that the short term priority is rushing Persepolis and that means swords.

I aslo still think the China "bridge city" is the next one to build, it is close to the capital and commerce rich. We also need to be ready to attack China at short notice, I think the dragon is our greatest rival. I would also be willing to build silver city first, especially if we pop Metal Casting... didum didum.



I don`t think we can afford either the silver city or the bridge city on the mainland at the moment. Athens is already costing us 8 gold and these citys will cost even more. I would also be reluctant to build the link city with China until we need it for this reason. China can`t tech trade with anyone until Optics and will be no threat to us until Astronomy, so we can probably hold of attacking them until we have enough troops to attack on the main continent and China at the same time.

The maintenace issue makes me wonder whether we should go for code of laws first instead of catapults.



Agree with the analysis. However, we are pretty much effectively running 0% science now. If we can get the pyramids I think it makes sense to get a lib or 2 running specs for research.


I was thinking that police state might be more useful than representation, we can keep our research rate up by raising citys/pillaging.

Good plan, we should not assign a priest until we know if we pop Theocracy in a hut though. I agree we don't need Alphabet, that would only be usefull if Asoka, Cyrus or Salahedin goes Hindu, then we might have a theoretical chance of trading techs.



Theology can`t be got from a hut.

They make peace when we do don't they?

Yes.

Theology can`t be got from a hut.
I'm curious, how do you know what techs can be gotten?

TDK

I'm curious, how do you know what techs can be gotten?




There is a tag in the XML which tells you whether a tech can be popped from a goody hut. No religious techs can be popped. Here is the complete list of techs that can be popped:

=====Ancient=====15=
Fishing
Hunting
Mining
Mysticism
Agriculture
Archery
Priesthood
The Wheel
Masonry
Pottery
Animal Husbandry
Sailing
Bronze Working
Writing
Horseback Riding
=====Classical======10=
Literature
Iron Working
Mathematics
Drama
Monarchy
Calendar
Construction
Compass
Currency
Metal Casting
=====Medieval======1=
Music
=====Renaissance=====1=
Astronomy

I think we should focus on our economy and when we could attack Persepolis.

As to our economy, the road forward seems clear.
-We should revolt to Hinduism while our economy is bad, this will give us +1 happy in Athens and Karakorum and hopefully other cities soon.
-Destroying Alex will also help Athens quite a bit.
-Taking Edo and giving back Satsuma in peace negotiations will also help tremendously.
If we achieve these objectives I think we can research Math and Construction fairly quickly, even without libraries.

Attacking Persepolis is possible in about 25-30 turns with carefull MM(ship chaining and such). That is if the first boat with upgraded units from Sparta is enough(together with the 6 axes on the continent).

TDK

Thanks for the list Mdy. I checked out the numbers in handicaps.xml, the chances of popping techs on the higher levels are actually bigger than on the lower levels when doing it with scouts, or even better, by culture.

On monarch, assuming culture pop, there are 12 possible outcomes out of 20 with a unit:
2*tech
5*gold
2*warrior
2*map
1*scout
The outcomes that disappear are:
5*barb
2*xp
1*healing

So, our chances of popping a tech in one hut is 2/12=16.7%
2 huts:
2 techs: 2.77%
1 tech: 27.80%
no tech: 69.44%

TDK

T0:

Ning-Hisa switches to galley.
Revolt to Hinduism.

T1:

Saladin builds Great Lighthouse in Mecca.
Togawa converts to Judaism.
Japanease galley with settler/archer appears outside Satsuma.

T4:

build sword in Karakorum, start sword.
Barracks in Keshlabik, start sword.
Take Edo, kill one archer and 1 axe. No losses. Pillage 106 gold.
Peace with Tog for Satsuma.

T5:

Cyrus galley with 2 archers approaches from north.
Declare war on Alexander.

T6:

Tog founds Satsuma. I think we are going to have to wipe him out after we have Persopolis, otherwise Edo will be cut off and he will become very powerful.
Raise Sparta for 21 gold. Kill 1 axe, 1 archer. No losses.
Whip granary in Old Serai.

T7:

2 huts are popped we get a scout and compass.
Start barracks in Old Serai.

T8:

Build Sword in Turfan,start archer

T9:

Whip granary In Edo.

T10:

Edo starts barracks.
Barbs discover polytheism for us.

I have sent our 6 CR2/CR3 axes towards Persopolis. Hopefully they will be enough to take it, if not we have 2 reinforcements not far behind.

Japan looks like becoming a real powerhouse, he is to in all the demographics on the main continent (except us) and will cut us off from Edo/Persopolis if left unchecked so I think we are going to have to plan to wipe him out soon.

Are we on 10 or 20 turnsets now?

Turn 148, 280 BC: Temujin's Axeman (5.50) vs Tokugawa's Archer (3.57)
Turn 148, 280 BC: Combat Odds: 88.0%
Turn 148, 280 BC: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 148, 280 BC: (Plot Defense: +20%)
Turn 148, 280 BC: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 148, 280 BC: (City Defense: +70%)
Turn 148, 280 BC: (City Attack: -45%)
Turn 148, 280 BC: Temujin's Axeman is hit for 17 (83/100HP)
Turn 148, 280 BC: Temujin's Axeman is hit for 17 (66/100HP)
Turn 148, 280 BC: Temujin's Axeman is hit for 17 (49/100HP)
Turn 148, 280 BC: Tokugawa's Archer is hit for 22 (48/100HP)
Turn 148, 280 BC: Tokugawa's Archer is hit for 22 (26/100HP)
Turn 148, 280 BC: Tokugawa's Archer is hit for 22 (4/100HP)
Turn 148, 280 BC: Tokugawa's Archer is hit for 22 (0/100HP)
Turn 148, 280 BC: Temujin's Axeman has defeated Tokugawa's Archer!
Turn 148, 280 BC: Temujin's Axeman (5.50) vs Tokugawa's Spearman (2.85)
Turn 148, 280 BC: Combat Odds: 99.0%
Turn 148, 280 BC: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 148, 280 BC: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 148, 280 BC: (Plot Defense: +20%)
Turn 148, 280 BC: (City Attack: -20%)
Turn 148, 280 BC: (Combat: -50%)
Turn 148, 280 BC: Tokugawa's Spearman is hit for 27 (73/100HP)
Turn 148, 280 BC: Tokugawa's Spearman is hit for 27 (46/100HP)
Turn 148, 280 BC: Temujin's Axeman is hit for 14 (86/100HP)
Turn 148, 280 BC: Temujin's Axeman is hit for 14 (72/100HP)
Turn 148, 280 BC: Tokugawa's Spearman is hit for 27 (19/100HP)
Turn 148, 280 BC: Tokugawa's Spearman is hit for 27 (0/100HP)
Turn 148, 280 BC: Temujin's Axeman has defeated Tokugawa's Spearman!
Turn 148, 280 BC: You have captured Satsuma!!!
Turn 148, 280 BC: The revolution has begun!!!
Turn 148, 280 BC: Temujin converts to Hinduism!
Turn 148, 280 BC: The anarchy is over! Your government is re-established.
Turn 148, 280 BC: Tokugawa converts to Judaism!
Turn 148, 280 BC: Saladin has completed The Great Lighthouse!

Turn 153, 205 BC: Temujin's Axeman (5.50) vs Tokugawa's Archer (5.25)
Turn 153, 205 BC: Combat Odds: 59.2%
Turn 153, 205 BC: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 153, 205 BC: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 153, 205 BC: (City Defense: +95%)
Turn 153, 205 BC: (City Attack: -45%)
Turn 153, 205 BC: Temujin's Axeman is hit for 19 (81/100HP)
Turn 153, 205 BC: Temujin's Axeman is hit for 19 (62/100HP)
Turn 153, 205 BC: Tokugawa's Archer is hit for 20 (80/100HP)
Turn 153, 205 BC: Tokugawa's Archer is hit for 20 (60/100HP)
Turn 153, 205 BC: Temujin's Axeman is hit for 19 (43/100HP)
Turn 153, 205 BC: Temujin's Axeman is hit for 19 (24/100HP)
Turn 153, 205 BC: Tokugawa's Archer is hit for 20 (40/100HP)
Turn 153, 205 BC: Tokugawa's Archer is hit for 20 (20/100HP)
Turn 153, 205 BC: Temujin's Axeman is hit for 19 (5/100HP)
Turn 153, 205 BC: Tokugawa's Archer is hit for 20 (0/100HP)
Turn 153, 205 BC: Temujin's Axeman has defeated Tokugawa's Archer!
Turn 153, 205 BC: Temujin's Axeman (5.50) vs Tokugawa's Axeman (3.70)
Turn 153, 205 BC: Combat Odds: 89.8%
Turn 153, 205 BC: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 153, 205 BC: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 153, 205 BC: (City Attack: -45%)
Turn 153, 205 BC: (Combat: -50%)
Turn 153, 205 BC: (Combat: +50%)
Turn 153, 205 BC: Temujin's Axeman is hit for 16 (84/100HP)
Turn 153, 205 BC: Temujin's Axeman is hit for 16 (68/100HP)
Turn 153, 205 BC: Tokugawa's Axeman is hit for 24 (76/100HP)
Turn 153, 205 BC: Temujin's Axeman is hit for 16 (52/100HP)
Turn 153, 205 BC: Tokugawa's Axeman is hit for 24 (52/100HP)
Turn 153, 205 BC: Tokugawa's Axeman is hit for 24 (28/100HP)
Turn 153, 205 BC: Temujin's Axeman is hit for 16 (36/100HP)
Turn 153, 205 BC: Temujin's Axeman is hit for 16 (20/100HP)
Turn 153, 205 BC: Tokugawa's Axeman is hit for 24 (4/100HP)
Turn 153, 205 BC: Tokugawa's Axeman is hit for 24 (0/100HP)
Turn 153, 205 BC: Temujin's Axeman has defeated Tokugawa's Axeman!
Turn 153, 205 BC: You have captured Edo!!!
Turn 153, 205 BC: You have made peace with Tokugawa!

Turn 154, 190 BC: Mahavira has been born in a far away land!

Turn 155, 175 BC: Temujin's Swordsman (6.60) vs Alexander's Archer (4.95)
Turn 155, 175 BC: Combat Odds: 73.6%
Turn 155, 175 BC: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 155, 175 BC: (Plot Defense: +20%)
Turn 155, 175 BC: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 155, 175 BC: (City Defense: +50%)
Turn 155, 175 BC: (City Attack: -30%)
Turn 155, 175 BC: Temujin's Swordsman is hit for 17 (83/100HP)
Turn 155, 175 BC: Alexander's Archer is hit for 23 (77/100HP)
Turn 155, 175 BC: Alexander's Archer is hit for 23 (54/100HP)
Turn 155, 175 BC: Alexander's Archer is hit for 23 (31/100HP)
Turn 155, 175 BC: Temujin's Swordsman is hit for 17 (66/100HP)
Turn 155, 175 BC: Alexander's Archer is hit for 23 (8/100HP)
Turn 155, 175 BC: Alexander's Archer is hit for 23 (0/100HP)
Turn 155, 175 BC: Temujin's Swordsman has defeated Alexander's Archer!
Turn 155, 175 BC: You have captured Sparta!!!
Turn 155, 175 BC: The Greek Civilization has been destroyed!!!
Turn 155, 175 BC: You have destroyed the city of Sparta!!!
Turn 155, 175 BC: The borders of Beshbalik have expanded!
Turn 155, 175 BC: The villagers have provided you with a Scout!
Turn 155, 175 BC: The villagers have given you the secrets of a new Technology!
Turn 155, 175 BC: You have discovered Compass!
Turn 155, 175 BC: The borders of Turfan have expanded!

Turn 158, 130 BC: Turfan will grow to size 4 on the next turn
Turn 158, 130 BC: Ning-hsia will grow to size 2 on the next turn
Turn 158, 130 BC: Old Sarai's cultural boundary is about to expand.
Turn 158, 130 BC: You have discovered Polytheism!

Good progress there!

I played 22 turns so I think a natural place to stop is after we take Persepolis. Maybe post the game before if things look difficult.

Saladin builds Great Lighthouse in Mecca.
Should we take it? There is a possible combo now that we popped Navigation and have half price harbours.

TDK

played 22 turns so I think a natural place to stop is after we take Persepolis. Maybe post the game before if things look difficult.


O.K. I will post the rest later today.

Should we take it? There is a possible combo now that we popped Navigation and have half price harbours.


As we are unlikly to get any foreign trade routes I don`t think it would do us much good.

As we are unlikly to get any foreign trade routes I don`t think it would do us much good. Yeah, and it's on a hill. Arabia really is a dead end.

I just saw that there are a sword and axe near Bombay, if they get any closer I think we should consider a DOW to Asoka. We might be able to grab it if there is just one defender and it would be a great city for the barbs.

I also think we should consider settling a city between the 2 gems and the barb hut on the continent. That's a city that can pay for itself, a 31% chance of a nice tech and a happy resource.

TDK

Good going!

I'd still cut research to 0. We only run +5 at 0% and we may lose $ due to WW, and we may want to found another city. Also an AI may get math and we could get free research. We don't have a lot of chops anyway--con is the key tech.

I think I'd whip a settler in kara after the sword for the silver or the bridge to Qin. It's tempting to come across with a small force and grab the nearest city and get peace. If Qin gets alpha we could also likely get peace for compass.

I also think we should consider settling a city between the 2 gems and the barb hut on the continent. That's a city that can pay for itself, a 31% chance of a nice tech and a happy resource.

I think we'd need to get at least one more worker over there but I agree. The bigger base we can build over there the better as our home base is really far.

Now that I think of it, we should probably build the city on the hill/gem. We would then get the gem bonus immediately. The downside is we can't work both gems, but we probably wouldn't anyway as there's not enough food to work the gem/hill.
This settles it for me, I would much rather have the gem city than the silver city. I propose to build a settler in Athens.

TDK

O.K. We have take Persopolis and pillaged 170 gold. The Persians lost 4 archers and 1 immortal, we lost 4 axes. On the way there I spotted 2 immortals heading soth, so Edo is building a spearman which could be whipped in emergencies. Cyrus will now make peace, and as he is pillaging the barb citys this is probably a good idea.

The Chinease can reach our continent, they founded the gem city TDK mentioned. I think I managed to raise it for 12 gold before they contacted anyone though. We lost 1 sword. He still won`t make peace. I have sent 1 galley to scout his lands (and pillage his fishing boats). We can block his access to the main continent with the other galley. I agree with building our next city there as soon as we are confident we have enough troops to take down our next victim. I think the geography means this has to be Japan.

We can revolt to police state to deal with war weariness.

Confunicism has been founded and Saladin has the Parthenon.

I'd still cut research to 0. We only run +5 at 0% and we may lose $ due to WW, and we may want to found another city. Also an AI may get math and we could get free research. We don't have a lot of chops anyway--con is the key tech.



I did this and the barbs have now researched maths for us. Construction is still a little way away. We are going to generate our GP well before the barbs research monotheism for us, so we may want to switch to researching that.


I think we'd need to get at least one more worker over there but I agree. The bigger base we can build over there the better as our home base is really far.

We now have two workers next to Edo. We have to be highly selective in which citys we build to avoid bankrupting the economy.

Turn 159, 115 BC: The borders of Old Sarai have expanded!

Turn 164, 40 BC: Hinduism has spread in Old Sarai.

Turn 165, 25 BC: Cyrus converts to Judaism!

Turn 166, 10 BC: Hinduism has spread in Kagoshima.

Turn 169, 35 AD: The borders of Athens have expanded!

Turn 170, 50 AD: The borders of Edo have expanded!

Turn 171, 65 AD: Qin Shi Huang converts to Buddhism!
Turn 171, 65 AD: Saladin has completed The Parthenon!
Turn 171, 65 AD: You have discovered Mathematics!

Turn 173, 95 AD: You have constructed a Barracks in Edo. Work has now begun on a Spearman.

Turn 174, 110 AD: Hinduism has spread in Hurrian.

Turn 175, 125 AD: Temujin's Axeman (5.50) vs Cyrus's Archer (7.05)
Turn 175, 125 AD: Combat Odds: 18.9%
Turn 175, 125 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 175, 125 AD: (Plot Defense: +60%)
Turn 175, 125 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 175, 125 AD: (City Defense: +95%)
Turn 175, 125 AD: (City Attack: -45%)
Turn 175, 125 AD: Cyrus's Archer is hit for 17 (83/100HP)
Turn 175, 125 AD: Temujin's Axeman is hit for 22 (78/100HP)
Turn 175, 125 AD: Cyrus's Archer is hit for 17 (66/100HP)
Turn 175, 125 AD: Cyrus's Archer is hit for 17 (49/100HP)
Turn 175, 125 AD: Cyrus's Archer is hit for 17 (32/100HP)
Turn 175, 125 AD: Cyrus's Archer is hit for 17 (15/100HP)
Turn 175, 125 AD: Temujin's Axeman is hit for 22 (56/100HP)
Turn 175, 125 AD: Cyrus's Archer is hit for 17 (0/100HP)
Turn 175, 125 AD: Temujin's Axeman has defeated Cyrus's Archer!
Turn 175, 125 AD: Your Axeman has destroyed a Archer!
Turn 175, 125 AD: Temujin's Axeman (5.50) vs Cyrus's Archer (6.60)
Turn 175, 125 AD: Combat Odds: 21.9%
Turn 175, 125 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 175, 125 AD: (Extra Combat: +30%)
Turn 175, 125 AD: (Plot Defense: +60%)
Turn 175, 125 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 175, 125 AD: (City Defense: +50%)
Turn 175, 125 AD: (City Attack: -45%)
Turn 175, 125 AD: Temujin's Axeman is hit for 21 (79/100HP)
Turn 175, 125 AD: Temujin's Axeman is hit for 21 (58/100HP)
Turn 175, 125 AD: Temujin's Axeman is hit for 21 (37/100HP)
Turn 175, 125 AD: Cyrus's Archer is hit for 18 (82/100HP)
Turn 175, 125 AD: Temujin's Axeman is hit for 21 (16/100HP)
Turn 175, 125 AD: Cyrus's Archer is hit for 18 (64/100HP)
Turn 175, 125 AD: Cyrus's Archer is hit for 18 (46/100HP)
Turn 175, 125 AD: Cyrus's Archer is hit for 18 (28/100HP)
Turn 175, 125 AD: Cyrus's Archer is hit for 18 (10/100HP)
Turn 175, 125 AD: Temujin's Axeman is hit for 21 (0/100HP)
Turn 175, 125 AD: Cyrus's Archer has defeated Temujin's Axeman!
Turn 175, 125 AD: Your Axeman has died trying to attack a Archer!
Turn 175, 125 AD: Temujin's Axeman (5.50) vs Cyrus's Archer (6.90)
Turn 175, 125 AD: Combat Odds: 19.8%
Turn 175, 125 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 175, 125 AD: (Plot Defense: +60%)
Turn 175, 125 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 175, 125 AD: (City Defense: +70%)
Turn 175, 125 AD: (Combat: -25%)
Turn 175, 125 AD: Cyrus's Archer is hit for 17 (83/100HP)
Turn 175, 125 AD: Temujin's Axeman is hit for 22 (78/100HP)
Turn 175, 125 AD: Cyrus's Archer is hit for 17 (66/100HP)
Turn 175, 125 AD: Cyrus's Archer is hit for 17 (49/100HP)
Turn 175, 125 AD: Temujin's Axeman is hit for 22 (56/100HP)
Turn 175, 125 AD: Temujin's Axeman is hit for 22 (34/100HP)
Turn 175, 125 AD: Temujin's Axeman is hit for 22 (12/100HP)
Turn 175, 125 AD: Temujin's Axeman is hit for 22 (0/100HP)
Turn 175, 125 AD: Cyrus's Archer has defeated Temujin's Axeman!
Turn 175, 125 AD: Your Axeman has died trying to attack a Archer!
Turn 175, 125 AD: Temujin's Axeman (5.50) vs Cyrus's Archer (4.80)
Turn 175, 125 AD: Combat Odds: 64.8%
Turn 175, 125 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 175, 125 AD: (Plot Defense: +60%)
Turn 175, 125 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 175, 125 AD: (City Defense: +50%)
Turn 175, 125 AD: (City Attack: -75%)
Turn 175, 125 AD: Temujin's Axeman is hit for 18 (82/100HP)
Turn 175, 125 AD: Temujin's Axeman is hit for 18 (64/100HP)
Turn 175, 125 AD: Temujin's Axeman is hit for 18 (46/100HP)
Turn 175, 125 AD: Cyrus's Archer is hit for 21 (79/100HP)
Turn 175, 125 AD: Temujin's Axeman is hit for 18 (28/100HP)
Turn 175, 125 AD: Temujin's Axeman is hit for 18 (10/100HP)
Turn 175, 125 AD: Temujin's Axeman is hit for 18 (0/100HP)
Turn 175, 125 AD: Cyrus's Archer has defeated Temujin's Axeman!
Turn 175, 125 AD: Your Axeman has died trying to attack a Archer!
Turn 175, 125 AD: Temujin's Axeman (5.50) vs Cyrus's Archer (4.50)
Turn 175, 125 AD: Combat Odds: 79.2%
Turn 175, 125 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 175, 125 AD: (Plot Defense: +60%)
Turn 175, 125 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 175, 125 AD: (City Defense: +50%)
Turn 175, 125 AD: (City Attack: -45%)
Turn 175, 125 AD: Temujin's Axeman is hit for 19 (81/100HP)
Turn 175, 125 AD: Temujin's Axeman is hit for 19 (62/100HP)
Turn 175, 125 AD: Cyrus's Archer is hit for 20 (59/100HP)
Turn 175, 125 AD: Temujin's Axeman is hit for 19 (43/100HP)
Turn 175, 125 AD: Temujin's Axeman is hit for 19 (24/100HP)
Turn 175, 125 AD: Temujin's Axeman