You make elaborate plans for us and have to see them crumble to dust DaviddesJ. :(

Not a problem, that's the nature of the game. If I wanted every move made exactly how I would make it, I would just play the game myself.

Is Methos playing next?

I think the Pyramids investment was still a net win in that the value of the gold we received justifies the hammers we invested. We can turn up research and get to Alphabet sooner.

Is Methos playing next?

I'm up yes, though I'm not sure when I can play. One of the guys on 3rd shift is on vacation both last week and this week, so we're overlapping to cover.

I'm after you, so we can swap, or I'll wait for you, whichever you prefer. I don't see a whole lot of "grand strategy" going on between now and Alphabet, it's just micromanagement of the forces we've got, and continuing to expand our position, within our tight happiness limits. We should probably work toward putting down a 6th city to the SE, to connect our iron and also form a cultural bridge to the SE island.

On the plus side, we got a lot of gold that will allow us to run at 100% research for quite a long time, beyond Alphabet.

Roster:
DaviddesJ - UP!
Methos - On Deck!
zyxy - Warming Up
Kulko
Niklas
Wotan
Marc Aurel - Just Played
unkle - On leave


@MA: Since you said you would be busy after last night, I assume you wanted to hand off here. If not yell and you can finish your turns. Otherwise it's better that DaviddesJ takes it, as he said there's not much except MMing to be done, so Methos doesn't miss out on anything that he can't do after. ;)

@DJ: Rock'n'roll! :D

This was meant for a midterm review, since I haven't uploaded the save to the server. I intended to finish my turns. Will have time in the evening for 10 turns.

Alright, she's still yours. 100% speed towards Alphabet!

What should we build in FS now? And what about the Worker in RS?

Trying to understand this myself but wouldn't this work to save the situation at SR, at least to some extent; Let it continue building LH for two turns, grow to size4 and get some WW effects, switch to Worker and rush for 2 pop? Then finish LH.

Galley in K, can't really understand why we want that at this stage of the game, as far as I understand we have no point along our coasts that it can cross to another island without culture expansion? So why put resources into a unit we cannot benefit from now? This might be my inexperience with CIV but for me to understand the game please have patience with my questions even if they are stupid or uninformed. ;)

We can cross to Saladin's territory without culture expansion. Not that that is so useful yet. We could explore around his island, but mostly as a matter of curiosity at this point. I would agree galley seems a low priority. Also disadvantage of galley as a placeholder is that if you don't finish it, the hammers will quickly (15 turns) start to decay. Also K is the only place that we have barracks so if I were going to build a unit there I would have chosen axeman. We probably also need a couple more warriors just for garrison duty.

Idea of growing SR to size 4 and then rush worker for 2 pop is not so bad.

As for the galley, I think there are some areas, where there is a small chance that we might be able to cross somewhere, like from eastern arabia or maybe from the three islands in the northeast. Chances are of course very slim, so we shouldn't waste anything on it if we have more useful things to build like Warriors for MP.

Given an investment in the galley, we should finish it so as not to lose those hammers.

The save:
http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm5/Smurkz_SG005_BC0475_01.Civ4SavedGame

Turn 11 (610BC):
We discover Writing. Switch Kara to a Library. Switch research to Alphabet. The barbs switch to Mathematics. REsearch set to 100%. 10 :gold: per turn loss.

Turn 12 (595BC):
Whip the Lighthouse in SR overflow gets into worker. Worker #1 chops forest 2N of FS for worker in FS.

Turn 13 (580BC):
SR finishes worker. Set to settler for the iron city.

Turn 14 (565BC):
Ponte Smurkzo is founded 1 north of the rice. Set to obelisk Saladin turns up with a settler-archer combo on a galley. :gold: loss increases to –15 :gold: per turn

Turn 15 (550BC):
Now it is really becoming dangerous. Saladin does not make landfall in the south-west, but sails eastwards. And Cu is completely defenseless. He has an archer on board, which is now closer to Cu than any of our units. Got panicky! Tries to move the warrior from Kara, in case he hesitates one turn. Switch to archer in Cu, even though it would be too late. The others cities are warrior defended. The workers are busy roading from SR to CU to allow the future defense troops fast moving across the island.

Turn 16 (535BC):
Saladins galley is further moving eastwards, now directly 3 tiles south of Cu.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/63104/Saladins_threat.JPG

Turn 17 (520BC):
Saladins galley is further moving eastwards now threatening SR. Worker finishes mine SW of Cu. Production is set back to granary. In hindsight it was a severe error to react on the galley here, cause it could have been awaited that the archer would keep close company to this settler. But well, who knows where this settler would land. However we have lost the ability to finish the granary in time for the first growth to size 2. So my panic has cost us valuable turns to get the slowly growing CU up. The warrior is heading back to Kara. Additionally I have with my measures spend us 3 turns of 1 unhappy citizen in Kara. So, all in one – a very bad turnset. However the worst has not happen to me. I haven’t lost a city so far.

Turn 18 (505BC):
Saladins galley is further moving South-eastwards along our coast. Guess he looks for land to settle. Warrior back in Kara.

Turn 19 (490BC):
Saladins galley is further moving southward. Cu-Worker moves to chop the banana jungle.

Turn 20 (475BC):
Cu grows to size 2.

Hand-off notices:

The threat of Saladins galley is not yet over. It is currently west of FS. I fear it will land close to the iron and found a city there. But maybe it circumsails the peninsula and threatens our clam nets at SR. For this case we can finish the galley in Kara. However we have 9 turns to be there. Saladin has only 7 turns. So maybe we need to whip the galley. If deciding against the galley, we have a defensive archer ready in Kara next turn. (archer was simply faster than axe, but we will need for sure axes very soon now. First - to fight the landing party, second – this may not be the only galley Saladin is sending. In the west we have a barb axe, who would fight them.) The road network between our cities is close to completion. FS finishes a worker next turn and should then build axes IMHO. Maybe we can put a barracks in between.

Comment about the galley in Kara: This was just a placeholder for the library. However after my playstyle and in my opinion they are terribly powerful for movement purpose. On archipelago and continent maps I use them for transport with a galley chain, since you can bring two units wherever you want in just one turn along your chain. This map looked too much like made for galley chain transportring. But you need more of them, so I just started the first.

Comment about the galley in Kara: This was just a placeholder for the library. However after my playstyle and in my opinion they are terribly powerful for movement purpose. On archipelago and continent maps I use them for transport with a galley chain, since you can bring two units wherever you want in just one turn along your chain. This map looked too much like made for galley chain transportring. But you need more of them, so I just started the first.
I'm trying to adapt to the team way of doing things so I need to get this verified. It may very well be that this is "terribly powerful" in your opinion but In previous SGOTMs this type of decision has always been something you first take to a discussion in the team thread before implementing. If this is the Smurkz approach then I will accept it and play accordingly, just need to know it is OK to do so when I am in control and playing my turn sets.

Things are heating up it seems.

Roster:
DaviddesJ - UP!
Methos - On Deck!
zyxy - Warming Up
Kulko
Niklas
Wotan
Marc Aurel - Just Played
unkle - On leave


I have to agree with Wotan, we're playing as a team and decisions that can be anticipated should really be discussed in the team, if they are important. Reacting to events like you did in this turnset may have been suboptimal, and you could have stopped to ask for input, but I don't really fault you there. But starting the galley when the team had already decided against galleys was really a :nono:.

Let's all stick to what the team thinks, otherwise we'll have players pulling in too many different directions making the game impossible to play. If any of you think some specific tactics is really powerful then do whatever you can to convince the rest of us of this. But if the team still says no, don't do it anyway.

@DJ: Happy hunting! :)

Now, I am completely perplexed.

What’s up here ???

It’s not that I wanted to offend anybody. The galley was just a minor decision IMHO. Every other turnset was played through so far! In fact, I was the first one in this SGOTM who stopped in the middle asking for opinions on how to continue !!!

And the team has clearly decided against galleys ???

So far as I have followed the discussion, zyxy has argued pro galley (post 211), wanting to conquer a minor Arabian town to get peace with Saladin and David has been against it (post 213), arguing that peace with Arabia alone would not solve our WW problem. So far I saw also you, Niklas, have been considering building a galley (post 212). Can we tell here, that we had already a team decision against galleys???
It may at least help to guard the SR clam against the Arabian fleet – so a purpose for the unit may be found.
I never argued so far against anybody else’s minor decisions, knowing that we will again be too slowly advancing and at one point in time lose the momentum, if we discuss every move and forget about the major plan.

Nonetheless, as I said, I am a peaceful person not wanting to attack anybody. If something, whatever, is up against me, I calm the situation down by retreat.. My sincere apologies for any inconvenience I have caused. Be affirmed that I won’t bother you again.

All the best! May you draw an overwhelming vistory of this game and win the gold. Bye Smurkz.

I was not trying to gun for you MA, just trying to understand how Smurkz work as a team. Your comment on using Galley(s) to guard our offshore resources is good in my opinion and sure would have gotten my vote. Maybe we should add another Galley just as additional insurance against a combat loss should any AI decide to attack. But at the start of any game resources are limited so I do think we should discuss what to build in the first few towns before playing. I made a mistake in not checking in about the first build in Cu, but did go through the team thread to look for info that could help me and there was a lot of arguments re. the need for plenty of Workers so started on a Worker. As the game progress and resources become more abundant the direct decisions on what to build in fringe towns are of less importance I guess and the need to MM everything within a team consensus diminish.

Now it's my turn to be perplexed. MA, there was absolutely no hostility in my statement. I make criticizm when I think it is relevant to do so, in particular regarding things connected to the team mechanism since I'm the team leader. I'm not claiming to always be right, and you have every right to respond to my criticizm. But there is nothing "up against you", and please don't take honest criticizm as a personal insult. It was not, and will never be from me.

I definitely have nothing against you, you've been a very good addition to this team from the moment you joined us. I have absolutely no wish to see you leave, especially not with any hard feelings, and I have every wish to have you stay. I would have given the same criticizm regardless of whom it concerned, in this particular situation. You should know since you have seen me criticize others on our team on several previous occations. It has never been with hard feelings, only with a genuine wish to see the team play as a team, and to help people play better. I'm not the best player around, and I certainly don't mind anyone giving me criticizm. Either I agree, and grow better for it, or I don't and I say why. But I would definitely not take it personally, and I don't see why you should.

Regarding the specifics of this situation, I was trying to calm feelings by making a statement. I felt there was some irritation floating around, regarding this and also the missed worker in SR. I wanted to bring this up in the open and not pretend it wasn't there, so that we could have it out of the way. That certainly doesn't mean I don't want you around, or that you're a bad player, or anything of the sorts. I really didn't think you'd feel criticized at all, it wasn't that big an issue either way or I would have said it already after your first 10, and with more emphasis. There was nothing personal in it, just what I thought to be a gentle reminder to everyone how a team game works, in particular after Wotan's question on the subject. Yes, that meant criticizing you, but I truly didn't think you'd mind at all.

Yes, looking back you are right in what you say. There was never any real decision one way or another, I guess it was simply in my own mind (and I believe most others as well) that the issue was dead and decided after DaviddesJ's post, since no one brought it up again. Posts made after your first part seem to agree with me, and Wotan's post, which is why I saw the need to make the statement in the first place. But you have every right to defend your position, and I definitely respect what you say about it. Regarding the galley, you are absolutely right that it may prove to be the correct decision because of the Arab threat. That was never the question.

About the other things you say, they were never under question. Yes you stopped to ask for input, which I think was very good. In fact I would probably have been irritated had you not, when the situation changed so drastically. I also specifically said I don't fault you for playing on in the second situation. I said you could have stopped, and that was just as much a message to everyone else, as a reminder that that option always exists. You admit yourself that your handling of the situation was not optimal, and there's really no more to say about that specific point. We are not robots, and no one can play perfectly all the time. I definitely don't fault you for how you handled the situation, since you already know it could have been done better.

Sorry for the rant, but I have a tendency to write a lot when I feel misunderstood. We're all trying to do our best here, and for me that includes being team leader. I may not always say the right things, but whatever I say there are never any hard feelings involved. So please, MA, don't make a big affair of something that was never intended to be in the first place.

Maybe not everyone has time, but to me it seems the the best thing is to post a summary before your turnset of major decisions you intend to make during that turnset (what to build, where to found cities, etc.), so people have a chance to comment.

I'm not convinced that building obelisk first in PS is a good idea. I might have thought granary or lighthouse. We're going to need cultural expansion there eventually, but, in the short term, it doesn't do a lot for us, while giving our enemies access for their galleys to our own territory.

Maybe not everyone has time, but to me it seems the the best thing is to post a summary before your turnset of major decisions you intend to make during that turnset (what to build, where to found cities, etc.), so people have a chance to comment.
I'm saying this should be done, and I said so in my first post in this thread. That's the way we've played since way back. Generally the time to write such a post is nothing compared to playing the turns, and it helps a lot. The cutoff for what's important and what isn't will of course vary depending on situation, but in the early game it doesn't seem undoable or infeasible to include all builds.

A few more comments.

It hurts to see PS working a 1f coast tile when we could be working a 4f rice farm.

It becomes really apparent now how nice it would be to have an axeman available. In an ideal world, we could ambush Saladin's archer when it comes off his galley. We get a free worker, eliminate the threat, and inflicting casualties on him would probably cause him to make peace. I personally hate to build archers (mediocre on defense, because they can't stop pillaging, and terrible on offense).

I think 20 turns is a really long session at this stage of the game. I think we should aim for around 10 turns, 15 at most, or a natural breakpoint. E.g., I will probably play the next set until we get Alphabet.

Ah yes, good point. In previous games the norm has been that everyone playes 20 in their first turnset, and 10 thereafter. So yes, please play ~10 turns. And don't forget a turn plan. ;)

Sorry to read about the missed Pyramids.
Even sorrier to read about the miscommunication in the team.

I sincerely hope you do come back MA.

As for how to go on, I am a bit confused now what our medium term goals are after we lost the race to pyramids. I think that is also one of the main reasons, why there was some inconsistency in what was build were.

Yes, I am a bit unsure about goals too, which is why I am taking a little while to post a turn plan. I hope to do that tonight and then we can have a day for discussion.

Sorry for the delay, I am in the middle of moving to a new apartment here. I'm sure I can get to this tomorrow. Or if Methos is available he can certainly step in.

Or if Methos is available he can certainly step in.

Sorry, I won't be able to take it. Since we're on the subject, I'll be away for the weekend doing some Cave Rescue Training. I might have some internet access in the evenings, but I'm not really sure. So consider me absent from tomorrow until late Sunday evening.

I cannot take over either before monday :-)

Alright, guess we all needed a bit of a break. Now let's rock'n'roll! :D

To bolster our collective morale a bit, let me point out that at our current position in time, we have the highest score of all teams :goodjob:! We're starting to drop in power a bit though, but I think our run for the Pyramids can explain a lot of that. I think we're well off to a good start, and the money we got off the Pyramids may actually be more useful than having completed them. And Alex isn't that far off... :mischief:

I'm going to have a look at the game now, and come back with some thoughts on how to proceed from here.

Alright, thoughts. That Arab galley cannot go south across the ocean, so it's a pretty safe bet that his settler is headed for our iron. There's no way we can stop him if he does, so the question is what to do about it.

It would of course be nice if we could actually capture that town from him, but the fastest he could grow is 33 turns, and I don't think he's going to build any culture any time soon (and he's not Creative). So, destroying it and building our own there is what we'll have to do.

We have the option to upgrade our warrior in FS to an axeman for 110 gold. With his Combat I promotion he's at strength 5.5, the archer defending a town settled on the iron would have strength [5.25, 5.4, 5.55, 5.7, 5.85, 6.0] depending on how many turns he has been fortified. The odds aren't very good regardless. He will be able to settle in 3 turns from now, we could strike him 4 turns from now at the earliest, meaning he won't have gathered any fortification bonuses yet, so it would be 5.5 vs 5.25, or a win chance of 59.1% when considering the archer's First Strike.

There is one thing that speaks in favor of an attack though, and that is the barbarian archer. If Saladin lands on the iron two turns from now, that archer would likely attack him three turns from now, just before our axe would strike. I'm unsure of what, if any, bonuses the AI have against fighting barbarians, but assuming there are none then there's only 16.4% chance that the Arab archer would win undamaged. If he takes one hit our win chances immediately increase to 71.7%, and if he takes two (38% chance for 2 or more hits) it rises to 87.3%.

Just some food for thought.

Thanks for jump-starting the discussion. Sorry that I had stalled a bit.

Some further thoughts about Saladin's galley:

1. He can't be literally "headed for our iron" because I don't think he's ever explored there to know it is there. He's just generally exploring. That doesn't mean he won't settle near it when he sees it. But I think it's an oversimplification to assume it will make a direct beeline for the best spot. The AIs don't "cheat" that way.

2. Why do you say his city will take 33 turns to grow to size 2? I assume he will work a grassland/forest, for +2 food, so he should expand in 17 turns, I think. (AIs don't get any food bonuses, do they?) A more important question might be, what will he build there? If he builds another archer (which seems likely, to me), it will be done faster than that.

3. I don't understand your combat calculations. If Saladin settles on flatland, then the archer in the first turn should only get +50% for city defense, so 4.5. If he settles directly on the iron hill, then the archer gets +25% for the hill itself, +50% for city defense, +25% for hill defense, so 6.0. In neither case do I get 5.25. Am I missing something?

4. It is a good move for Saladin to put the city directly on the iron hill, since it gets him an iron resource without waiting dozens of turns to ship over a worker and build a mine and road, and also because it improves his defense. But I think he's more likely to put the city next to the iron, the AI doesn't tend to settle on resources. It may be somewhat unpredictable.

1. Very true. I just assumed he would see the iron and unload on it two turns from now, but he may want to search for something better.

2. :blush: Civ3 is still messing with my head, forests are 2f 1h and not the other way around. You're right. And you're also right about the Archer, which I didn't even bother to mention with the 33 turns I was calculating with.

3. You're right again, I missed the 25% from the hill itself. Gah. Ok, that drops our immediate win chance to 26.6%, worse if he fortifies. It also means that the barbie archer has only 53.9% chance to inflict damage, 32.0% chance to do 2 or more hits. If he does 1 hit, our subsequent chance to win is 60.2%, if he hits twice it's 70.9%. Not too good.

4. An important note there is that even if he settles on the iron, it won't be connected to his core due to our cultural borders blocking the way.

OK, here are my thoughts and plans. Let's try to get back in the swing of things. Despite some disappointment, we are still doing fine in this game.

1. Upgrading our warrior will cost enough gold to significantly delay our research of Alphabet. We don't know what Saladin's galley will do, or where he will settle. Even if we do get a chance to attack his archer before it's fortified, we might still lose. It seems too speculative, to me, to spend our gold on this. If we build promoted axemen in Karakorum, they have essentially the same chance against a fortified archer as our unpromoted axeman would have against an unpromoted archer. We can definitely build enough axemen to take the city, although it might take a while.

2. Our WW seems to have declined. We used to have -2 in K at size 4, now we have only -1. Maybe the barbs have spent their wrath and this won't be as big a problem in the future. It still makes sense to me to trade some old techs for peace, if we can. I still fear that if K grows to size 5 it will have -2 WW and become unhappy.

3. Every single city we have is building the wrong thing, in my view. We don't urgently need galley, or archer, or settler, or another worker, or obelisk in PS, or granary in CS. However, in most cases, I don't see the point in throwing away the hammers we have invested so far, or letting the invested hammers decay. My build plan:

Karakorum: finish archer, then finish galley, then library (unless more troops are needed); if becomes unhappy, then spend 2 pop to rush library

Fort Smurx: finish worker, then library (to leverage gold mine), possibly finishing with pop rush

Smurx Rockz: interrupt settler with library to grow to size 4 when poprush unhappiness wears off, then return to settler to avoid hammer decay, then finish library

Cu Smurx: finish archer, then finish granary, then barracks (work bananas when available, to grow to size 3)

Ponte Smurxo: abandon obelisk for granary (work rice when cleared)

I'm going to keep research at 100% until Alphabet. That should end my turnset, we can then discuss cost of peace (if available).

Worker priorities are: (1) clear and farm rice near PS; (2) clear bananas near CS; (3) clear and mine hill near PS;

If Saladin does not settle on our iron, then I think we should use our new settler to settle south of the iron. But that will be outside my turnset.

I will play my turns tomorrow (Monday).

Agree with every issue you address DaviddesJ! Feel free to play today (Monday)! :lol:

Sounds like a sensible plan. I also agree with the proceedings concerning Saladin. And if we want to raze the town anyway to build in a "better" place, we do have a few turns to build these Axeman.

I think the plan looks good, the only thing I might consider is to finish the galley before the archer in K, to sail south and block Saladin's galley.

I think the plan looks good, the only thing I might consider is to finish the galley before the archer in K, to sail south and block Saladin's galley.

It might save zero turns, since the archer has less than one turn to go, but I'll look into it. I agree that defending our clams would probably be worthwhile (even though our chance of winning on defense is only a bit over 50%; I always seem to just lose these battles).

OK, I played 12 turns (to Alphabet) with no big surprises. Saladin's galley disappeared, then reappeared empty. I think he must have settled an island NE of Fort Smurx (you can see that there's a coast-coast connection). He doesn't have Iron Working yet, that probably explains why he didn't take our iron spot.

295 BC: http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm5/Smurkz_SG005_BC0295_01.Civ4SavedGame

Currently our WW is -1 at size 2 and -2 at size 5. Karakorum grew to size 5 and became unhappy, I rushed the library to get rid of that. Fort Smurx will grow to size 5 next turn and become unhappy, my plan is to rush the library there when that happens.

One worker is clearing the forest S of iron in preparation for our settler to arrive there (no point in wasting it). Remaining workers have farmed rice near Porte Smurxo and will build mine next. Unfortunately, I cleared the jungle on bananas and then it promptly regrew. :mad: When our 3-worker team is finished around PS, they can come back through CS and clear some jungle tiles and build some improvements there.

We need to decide on a research path. I think Drama (for theaters to deal with our unhappiness) is not absurd. If we make peace with several AIs, so our happiness problems are reduced, then Mathematics makes sense, with Construction or Calendar as the logical successors. In retrospect, I am thinking that we would have been better off just going Mathematics in place of Alphabet. The price of techs for peace is pretty high. We have to discuss what to do.

The good news is that Saladin founded Confucianism and also built the Great Lighthouse, war with him is looking pretty promising. It will take a while to connect the iron with only one worker, maybe we should think about building another one somewhere (in FS after library?). Perhaps I should have sent two of our current four down to the southeast. I wasn't sure yet that Saladin would leave us alone, though.

Turn 135, 475 BC: switch Karakorum to galley
Turn 135, 475 BC: Karakorum works farm
Turn 135, 475 BC: Fort Smurx works farm
Turn 135, 475 BC: Smurkz Rockz builds library
Turn 135, 475 BC: Cu Smurkz builds archer
Turn 135, 475 BC: Ponte Smurkzo builds granary
Turn 135, 475 BC: cancel worker tasks

Turn 136, 460 BC: Fort Smurx builds library
Turn 136, 460 BC: Karkorum works forest

Turn 137, 445 BC: worker builds road NE of Fort Smurx
Turn 137, 445 BC: You have trained a Archer in Cu Smurkz. Work has now begun on a Granary.

Turn 138, 430 BC: Saladin has completed The Great Lighthouse!

Turn 139, 415 BC: Isabella adopts Organized Religion!

Turn 140, 400 BC: Karakorum rush library for 2 pop
Turn 140, 400 BC: You have constructed a Library in Karakorum. Work has now begun on a Galley.
Turn 140, 400 BC: You have constructed a Granary in Cu Smurkz. Work has now begun on a Barracks.

Turn 141, 385 BC: You have trained a Galley in Karakorum. Work has now begun on a Archer.
Turn 141, 385 BC: The borders of Cu Smurkz have expanded!
Turn 141, 385 BC: Sakae has been captured by the Spanish Empire!!!

Turn 143, 355 BC: Merit Ptah has been born in a far away land!

Turn 145, 325 BC: Confucianism has been founded in Medina!

Turn 146, 310 BC: You have discovered Alphabet!
Turn 146, 310 BC: Saladin converts to Confucianism!

Turn 147, 295 BC: The enemy has been spotted near Fort Smurx!

Doesn't look to bad. Looks like we turned it on again.

BTWb how do you see in CIV4 what the other party is willing to accept in a trade without actually accepting it?

BTW how do you see in CIV4 what the other party is willing to accept in a trade without actually accepting it?

When you're at war, you can say "What is the price for peace?" and it will show you the minimum the other side will accept. However that doesn't reveal all possible combinations that are acceptable: e.g., you may find out that a player will accept Alphabet for peace, but you don't know whether or not that player would accept Iron Working plus Sailing, unless you know whether the AI values one more or less than the other.

When you're not at war, you can do more: "What will make this deal work?" will show you what you would have to add to any given deal to make it acceptable.

Ok, As an old civ3er I always assumed the AI just makes ridiculous claims when you do thinks like that. And would actually settle for much less.

Civ4 is designed to avoid haggling, so when you do "What will make this deal work?" it gives you the best possible deal (i.e., any less favorable deal would be declined by the AI). Makes a lot of sense and saves a lot of time. I had actually forgotten some of the annoyances of Civ3, since I haven't played it in so long. Like checking for new trade opportunities with every civ on every turn. :(

Jummy, Saladin seems to have played well for us to eventually take over his resources. So Drama as a first stop and then to Construction for Catapults to begin liberating Saladins towns? Sounds like something that i can relate to as a warmonger. ;)

Alright, nicely played! Will look at the save later this evening.

Roster:
DaviddesJ - Just Played
Methos - UP!
zyxy - On Deck!
Kulko - Warming Up
Niklas
Wotan
unkle - On leave
Marc Aurel - Lost


Go Methos! :whipped: :D

I'm back.

Good news that Saladin didn't take our iron spot!

It seems most of the AI will accept peace for Alpha, perhaps for less. Asoka demands a town, but might be satisfied with a tech or two. Qin doesn't want peace. Asoka and Alex are doing pretty bad on the score curves. Alex and Saladin would make good first targets: both have a nice wonder, Alex is probably weaker and has silver on his island, Arabia has wines.

I would aim research for construction, without going drama first, since it seems WW can be limited with some peace deals. Shall we go at Saladin without cats?

I don't know if this was discussed already, but do we want to settle 1 S of the iron, or 1 N? Both have their advantages:
1 S gets 2 forests, 1 iron desert hill, and 8 coastal tiles (1 is shared).
1 N gets 3 forests, 1 iron desert hill, and 9 coastal tiles (1 is shared).
So 1 N has more useful tiles, but 1 S gains a coastal bridge to Alex. Therefore, I would choose 1 S.

We can also gain a coastal bridge to Qin by settling the 2 tile island NE of K. And of course PS will provide a coastal bridge to the main island. So all civs are in reach before Astro.

I would whip the lib in SR and use the overflow for another worker. Do we want to get a GS in K?

I think we can conquer Saladin without cats, with several cities pumping out axes/swords. But do we gain enough to be worth it?

I am concerned that if we buy peace for Alphabet then the value will go down, once we don't have a monopoly, and we won't be able to buy peace from the remaining civs. Also that once we trade Alphabet, if the AIs start trading techs with each other but won't trade with us, we will lose ground on techs.

I always assumed we would settle 1S of iron so that we can extend cultural bridge (which is why I'm chopping the forest there). If we are working the iron mine, we aren't growing anyway, so how many tiles we have is irrelevant. This will never be much of a city, at least until CS, because of lack of food.

In Fort Smurx, I think a better idea is: switch to worker for one turn, then switch back to library for one turn, then rush worker for 2 pop, then finish library.

I achknowledge that I'm up! :D

I'm at work, so I can't download it.

Yes I agree that the first priority for the iron city should be the land bridge. I believer we might even dispose it again, once we don't need the bridge anymore.

Not important, but I don't understand "dispose of" iron city. When will we not need it any more? If we get another iron source, we can probably trade the second one for some other resource. And, there's no real way to "get rid" of cities anyway.

Ah yes CIV4 again, you can't disband cities.

My guess is, that this city will always be a netto-consumer in our economy, which is still necessary for 2 reasons:
-Access to the iron
-Culture bridge

Both of these points might come mood during the duration of the game so I thought it wise to get rid of it later in the game, do get a stronger economy.
For Instance we could gift it to the Barbs at a convinient time.

Eventual net value of iron city is certainly not negative. Maintenance with courthouse, plus civics cost, is only around 5 gpt. City will generate almost that much directly, with trade routes and harbor. Plus it can build at least 6 hammers/turn of units, with iron mine, which are worth more than maintenance cost. Plus the trade value of the iron resource is very substantial, as I mentioned above.

Early in the game, it's possible to overexpand and have cities that are a drain on economy, but later on, with Civil Service to irrigate them, Code of Laws for courthouses, Currency and Compass for trade routes, etc., it basically is never an issue. Especially for cities close to capital.

Moot anyway since we can't gift cities to barbarians (as mentioned more than once in this thread). Also, Domination is our likely goal and so we're going to need to cover available territory with lots of cities.

I originally signed up as a lurker only, but thought I'd give it a try and play. Time is just too tight for me, so I think I'm going to have to just go back to lurking this one.

So, who's next?

That means I'm up. Unfortunately, it's too late today and I'm away the whole day and evening tomorrow. I can get to it on Saturday. Niklas, if you want to make it a swap, that's fine. We need to get moving.

Alright, we all knew it could come to that. Thanks for trying anyway. :)

Roster:
DaviddesJ - Just Played
zyxy - UP!
Kulko - On Deck!
Niklas - Warming Up
Wotan
unkle - On leave
Methos - Lurking
Marc Aurel - Lost


@zyxy: Your go then! :)

EDIT: Crossposted. Alright Kulko, your go then. :)

Is zyxy going to play today and get us on track? We need to get back on a regular schedule or the team is going to disintegrate. :(

Do we have any idea what we want to do?

I checked the diplomacy screen and is far from the fact that everybody is willing to give us peace. (the techs in parantheses would be the one we also have.)

China no peace
Toku Alpha (nothing)
India City (Pot, Alpha, IW up)
Arabia Alpha (IW)
Spain Alpha + Sail (IW)
Persia Alpha (nothing)

My Suggestion:

Make Peace with toku (Alpha)
Hope for Persia (Also Alpha)
Try India for the techs (as few as possible)
Spain (probably for all 3 techs by then.)

We might still be able to get Arabia at the end, but I am not suire if we want.

Expected result would be a war with Persia, China and Arabia, hopefully reducing WW by at least 1.

After we have seen how it really comes out lets discuss drama or Construction.

Expected result would be a war with Persia, China and Arabia, hopefully reducing WW by at least 1.

Note that WW is a fraction of total population (that's why it goes up when our cities grow). There's something funny with the rounding, but currently our WW is more than 2/5 but less than 2/4 (i.e., we have 1 WW at size 4 and 2 WW at size 5). Let's say we reduce our WW factor from 0.45 to 0.25. Then we would have 1 WW up to size 7, so we could grow our cities 1 larger than we now can.

WW is not a huge issue at the moment because it seems to be receding (i.e., there aren't that many new barbarians being created), and because our cities can't get significantly bigger until we get Monarchy or Calendar or capture the Pyramids or gain a religion or hook up silver, etc.

Aside from reducing WW, it would be nice if we could get some overseas trade routes (more commerce) and/or establish resource trade routes (although we're unlikely to find anyone who will trade us a happiness resource, at least until Calendar, it's still possible---and we could even just give away excess health resources, to try to make some friends who will trade techs with us).

I think we should try hard to make one friend who will trade techs with us. This could be by adopting a favored civic, or sharing a religion, as well as by trading resources and just generally maintaining peace.

As for research, if we go for Drama, then we could meanwhile run two scientists to generate a Great Scientist and lightbulb Mathematics. On the one hand, that advances us toward our most valuable techs, on the other hand, it's a bit of a waste of the GS.

Is zyxy going to play today and get us on track? We need to get back on a regular schedule or the team is going to disintegrate. :(

Agree, but Kulko is up.

Is bulbing a tech better than Academy? Anyway, bulbing Math seems like a bit of a waste, like you said.

If we want to make a friend (and I think this is a good idea), it would have to be Persia or India.

Is bulbing a tech better than Academy? Anyway, bulbing Math seems like a bit of a waste, like you said.

The academy is eventually better, but it would probably take over 100 turns to come out ahead. We might care more about the short term.

We're probably going to be running at a fairly low science rate, 50 or 60%, because of our large number of small cities (growing further if we launch some wars); this substantially reduces the value of the academy. And we don't have any natural super science city. If we expect a long game, and if we go for Drama for theaters, then we might try to build Academy and Globe Theater in Karakorum and then grow it as big as possible with lots of cottages. But this will take a long time to pay off (not least because building the Globe would take quite a long time).

We could try to build the Globe in CS, which at least has decent production. But it doesn't have much food, so it can't take advantage to quickly grow very big. Also, it doesn't have fresh water so it will more quickly be health limited.

It may be optimistic, but I'm most inclined to try to conquer the world (or, enough of it to achieve domination) simply with swords and catapults, in which case any optimization of long-term research is irrelevant. I wonder if we can extort some techs from Saladin if we attack him. I've never had much luck with that, in the past.

Just a quick note, don't have time for more tonight.

I agree with DaviddesJ that we should try to win the game in a low-tech fashion. As such I really don't want to deviate too much from the path of techs we really need. We need Construction for catapults, we might want CS for maces. Other than that, I don't see a pressing need for any techs at all. Too bad cash-rushing units is too far off though...

I agree with DaviddesJ that we should try to win the game in a low-tech fashion. As such I really don't want to deviate too much from the path of techs we really need. We need Construction for catapults, we might want CS for maces. Other than that, I don't see a pressing need for any techs at all. Too bad cash-rushing units is too far off though...

Don't you think Drama, for theaters, is going to fit well in this plan? If we aren't dependent on a lot of research, then we can maintain a high level of happiness throughout the game, with a modest culture rate.

As I recall, there's ivory somewhere about, so we could eventually build War Elephants with Construction. I doubt we're going to get to macemen (need CS and Machinery) or knights unless we manage to make a friend and do some tech trading.

Cash rushing is not all that distant, it's just as far as capturing the Pyramids.

Construction is certainly the key enabler at this point. Can we get there about as fast if we research Drama, lightbulb Mathematics, and research Construction, as if we go the direct research route? Effectively, that converts 150 GPP into several hundred beakers. I think that's more than we're going to get with an academy, unless we're researching farther than Construction and Calendar.

At the sustainable rate of 60%, Drama takes 36 turns to research (of course the best thing is to halt research now, and bring it to 100% after we finish 1-2 more libs). It will take 25 turns to get a GS with two scientists.

Possible locations for the 2 scientists:

K: can grow to size 5 in 8 turns, or sooner if WW disappears. It will be food neutral if we forego the pigs in favor of a farm. Alternative is to hire 1 scientist part of the time, working banana, pigs, horse and forest/farm to gain food, and then use up the food while hiring 2 scientists.
SR: enough food at size 4, but lacks a lib. In 16 turns we can whip it for 1 pop. SR is sustainable at size 4 if WW disappears.
FS: enough food at size 5 working the gold, a riverside farm (needs to be built) and the rice. Needs to whip a lib for 2 pop. Size 5 is only possible if WW disappears and there's no whip unhappiness, i.e. 15 turns from now. This takes too long it seems.

It seems K is the best bet, with the alternative method.

OK so I started the play and made peace.

We got Persia (Alpha) Japan (Alpha), India (IW), Spain (Alpha, Sail)

Arabia would also take peace for Alpha only.

We will know next turn what effect had all this on WW, when FS will grow to size 5. But before that we would need to decide on a Tech to research.

Good choices on the peace deals.

I think we agreed to post plans before we play. Typically it's the turnplayer's job to write the plan. There's plenty of input in this thread...

Oh another misunderstanding here

My post above meant, I would think it the best course of action to make the peace deals and then see where we stand. Since nobody disagreed I went ahead with this step and now posted where we stand.

I liked the plan with drama, but since we got peace quite cheap, I am not so sure about the Drama route anymore.

BTW what happens when we GS Math but have already 30 beakers invested (Barbs research) Do we get them as an overflow or is the investment just lost?

I think the investment is lost.

I would also tend to research Math outright, but I would like to hear from our experienced team members what they think of WW problems in case we invade. Without Calendar, Pyramids or Monarchy we have no way to control WW. The disadvantage of researching Drama is of course that it will take some time.

I'm fine with the diplo. What I meant is: the game is standing still and I'm getting the impression that we're waiting for someone to tell us what to do. IME it is typically a bad idea if someone else than the current turnplayer creates a plan (because of miscommunication or misunderstandings, and because it stifles initiative and fun). Hence it is up to you as turnplayer to take the initiative and put a plan together that we can discuss. It doesn't have to be perfect in the first draft, as we can still comment on it, and there already are a lot of posts in this thread to help you.

I think the investment is lost.
It is.

I would also tend to research Math outright, but I would like to hear from our experienced team members what they think of WW problems in case we invade. Without Calendar, Pyramids or Monarchy we have no way to control WW. The disadvantage of researching Drama is of course that it will take some time.
I thought the plan was to capture the Pyramids. :mischief: Seriously though, DaviddesJ's comment on cash rushing makes me view this as our #1 target.

My inclination is also to research Math, fastest victory wins the game and I'm more of a gamble and fail guy. But I admit that I'm inexperienced, the SGOTM's are the only games I've played, and none of them saw extensive fighting before Drama. If we really think WW will be a problem then Drama is better than Calendar.

I'm fine with the diplo. What I meant is: the game is standing still and I'm getting the impression that we're waiting for someone to tell us what to do. IME it is typically a bad idea if someone else than the current turnplayer creates a plan (because of miscommunication or misunderstandings, and because it stifles initiative and fun). Hence it is up to you as turnplayer to take the initiative and put a plan together that we can discuss. It doesn't have to be perfect in the first draft, as we can still comment on it, and there already are a lot of posts in this thread to help you.
zyxy is absolutely right here. The diplo was fine, you posted it and none of us objected. Keeping Greece and Arabia (and China) as enemies is exactly what we want, and the others are best left for later. But we need to get a move on, and it's up to the turnplayer to state the plan for others to discuss and comment. :)

EDIT: My bad, Greece has been a friend for some time now. But still.

Ah now I understand.

Sorry, but I was a bit surprised with being put in the lineup so I tried to get the obvious out of the way first and then hear some more input into the Tech discussion:

But here is my plan:

Research

I will go for Math immediately. Switch research for 0% until we have more libs.

Cities

Karakorum:
I would build Axes here. Great Scientists don't seem very helpful when we do math directly SO I would skip that part.

FS:
Grow to Size 5 and whip Library.
SR:
Finish Settler, Finish Library.
(I am not sure what DavidesJ meant with his plan of switching a worker in and rushing it. I am also confused if he spoke about FS or SR)

CS:
Build Axes

PS:
Finish Granary, Rush when grown.

I will also settle Iron Smurks and build an Library there.

Apart from that just start building up some Honour guard for our visit of Saladin.

Alright, good start!

Comments and questions:
Can you already see the effect on WW of our peace deals, or does this take a turn?

Research: I agree with Math, and I would set sci to 0% now, then to 100% after saving up some cash and building some libs.

We could train a GS somewhere (perhaps not in K), but I'm not sure what for... next in line for bulbing is Compass IIRC, not very useful. But after that comes Machinery or Calendar I think, and that might help.

I agree with axes (and swords, and perhaps a chariot or two) in CS and K. The other towns have no raxes, and perhaps they don't need to contribute to the army yet? Maybe let them build some more workers and the occasional galley?

I would train a worker from FS, and David's plan referred to that.

PS can rush granary when it has grown. Follow up with monument?

Iron Smurkz could do a monument instead of a lib. This will be quicker. Workers in the area can chop the monument and connect iron. Once the culture expansion is there, we can send a galley to explore Alex-land.

I guess we need a war plan. How long until we can reach Alex? Do we go for Alex or Saladin first? How many units are needed?
Relevancy for this turnset is the timing of culture expansion in Iron Town.

I would send our current galley back to protect our seafood.

Alright, good starting point! Now it'll be a lot easier to know what to concentrate the discussion on.

I've checked the save a bit more, and a few things come to mind.

First of all, who are we planning to attack first, and when? As for who, Mecca is on a hill and requires catapults, but we may not be able to reach Alex without the cultural bridge in the SE that will take some time to set up.

As for when, if we go straight for Math, ETA would be somewhere around 20 turns. Going the GS route would take 25+ to get the GS, and Drama likely around the same time, so we wouldn't actually lose too much. Then Construction for an estimated 30-35 turns. After that we would need to build or rush a few catapults, so it is likely we could have a strike force assembled in around 65-70 turns. In that time we could build a lot of units.

Waiting 70 turns to strike seems a bit long to me, but may be necessary. But we could likely strike at Alex before that, if we think Athens would be easier to grab. And the Pyramids is something we should really aspire to capture.

EDIT: The numbers in the next paragraph are slightly wrong. See post 320 for the correct numbers.

Our settler would found Iron Smurkz (Fe Smurkz? ;)) five turns from now. It would take 17 turns to grow while working a forest and mining/roading the iron. Working forest 17 turns at 2 hpt (34 :hammers: ) and then forest + iron for 7 turns at 8 hpt (56 :hammers: ) before whipping the remaining 45 completes a library in 25 turns. Working the iron at 7 hpt from when it is connected 10 turns after the town is settled will complete the library in 26 turns, but with 20 food in the bin. After that it's 8 turns (right?) until the borders expand, so all in all we could have a cultural bridge to Alex ready 37-38 turns from now. We could have it in 30 turns if we build an Obelisk first instead of a library.

Can we have the galley off in the north to return down and scout out some of the islands, for instance where Saladin's settler disappeared to? There might already be a bridge, though it's unlikely.

EDIT: Crosspost with zyxy, as so often ;). 30 turns minimum to reach Alex, 70 turns or so until Construction. Those are the numbers we have to work with.

I edited my plan with the obvious corrections.

Re GS: I looked it up in the list somebody posted some pages back and found nothing of interest.

Re Chariots: Are they worth it? I would rather switch in another galley for the transport

Re IS and culture.
Since we want to attack Saladin first I would guess we have enough time to wait for the Lib. The same is true for PS I guess.

Edit: Crosspost^3
But even when we go after Alex, we need some minimum time to build an army.

Since we want to attack Saladin first I would guess we have enough time to wait for the Lib. The same is true for PS I guess.
Do we? I would argue that Alex is the better target, we could strike earlier and the gains are presumably greater (Pyramids!). But there's always the chance that Athens is also on a hill, in which case we'd need to wait for cats there as well. If we think we could gather a sufficient force within 30 turns, I say go for Alex. The question is, can we?

Also, how much is an Axe->Sword upgrade? I definitely think it's worth delaying research by a number of turns if we can upgrade our axes. How many would we upgrade, at what cost? If we wait for cats, of course we upgrade after Construction though.

Hmm, I realize I counted wrong above. The iron hill is not a plains hill, it's a desert hill, so the numbers are wrong. Also we can work the iron when the mine is completed, we don't need to wait for the road. So, going the grow->work iron->rush lib route would take 26 turns, one longer than before. Working the iron as soon as it's available takes 28 turns to a library, or 13 to an obelisk. To those numbers we still add 13 (5 turns until town is settled, and 8 turns for the borders to expand) so 39 turns if we go for library or 26 turns if we choose the obelisk.

I agree Alex is the juicier target, and waiting for cats is no good. (In 70 turns, we'll see longbows I guess).

The quickest way to get culture expansion in Iron Smurkz is probably to chop a forest towards a monument. How many hammers would we get? 45? That would mean a culture expansion some 20 turns after the town is built (5 turns for the chop, 15 for the expansion).

It would be helpful to get a galley across (after the culture expansion of course) to scout before we send the invasion force. Perhaps try to sign OB with Alex if we can do that early enough to allow a cancellation before the attack.

@Niklas: axes don't upgrade to swords.

Chariots are of course not great but somewhat useful to pick off stragglers, and to throw at strong defenders if we have to sacrifice a unit, because chariots are cheap and can retreat. However, they may not make much of a dent against really strong defense like archer on a hill, and I don't really mind whether we build some or not.

1. I guess I don't understand reason for researching Mathematics while skipping GS altogether. If we don't want Drama, we can still just set research to 0% until we can pop a GS and lightbulb Mathematics, then research at 100% toward Construction. Going via the GS should definitely get us faster to Construction, because during the initial scientist phase we'll be saving gold to run at a higher research rate. If the alternative plan is to never get any great people, I don't see the downside of getting Math the faster way instead.

I haven't looked at the options for where to get the GS, but my first thought was to replace pig mine with a pasture in order to support the two scientists in Karakorum. I can't open the game for the next couple of days, so I can't give an exact calculation (e.g., how long will it take to move workers there to construct the pasture? unfortunately they are all far away).

2. Axes never upgrade to swords.

3. Sorry if I didn't explain plan for FS clearly. Switch to worker for one turn, this puts a few hammers into the worker while we still stay at size 3. Then switch to library for one turn, this lets us grow to size 4. Then switch back to worker and now we can rush it for 2 pop. We need to switch to the worker for one turn because it costs more to rush it if you have no hammers in it. And then we need to switch back to library for one turn because otherwise we won't grow to size 4 and can't use 2 pop for rushing.

On the other hand, with reduced WW and increased happiness limit maybe we can still be happy at size 4? In that case we would have additional options.

4. Do we have any additional diplo options? Open borders with anyone? Trade routes?

1. I guess I don't understand reason for researching Mathematics while skipping GS altogether. If we don't want Drama, we can still just set research to 0% until we can pop a GS and lightbulb Mathematics, then research at 100% toward Construction. Going via the GS should definitely get us faster to Construction, because during the initial scientist phase we'll be saving gold to run at a higher research rate. If the alternative plan is to never get any great people, I don't see the downside of getting Math the faster way instead.

I haven't looked at the options for where to get the GS, but my first thought was to replace pig mine with a pasture in order to support the two scientists in Karakorum. I can't open the game for the next couple of days, so I can't give an exact calculation (e.g., how long will it take to move workers there to construct the pasture? unfortunately they are all far away).

Good Point! I wil check also.



3. Sorry if I didn't explain plan for FS clearly. Switch to worker for one turn, this puts a few hammers into the worker while we still stay at size 3. Then switch to library for one turn, this lets us grow to size 4. Then switch back to worker and now we can rush it for 2 pop. We need to switch to the worker for one turn because it costs more to rush it if you have no hammers in it. And then we need to switch back to library for one turn because otherwise we won't grow to size 4 and can't use 2 pop for rushing.

On the other hand, with reduced WW and increased happiness limit maybe we can still be happy at size 4? In that case we would have additional options.

Clear now, but we are doing this at size 4-5. OTOH hope we can grow now beyond size 5.

4. Do we have any additional diplo options? Open borders with anyone? Trade routes?
I will Check.

OK Guys, gotta catch my train. Will come back with a few more thoughts during the day. Maybe I can play tonite.

War Weariness:
We need reduced WW and no whipping penalty to operate Kara at Size 5. In general we are on our happyness limit until Calendar or oversea expansion. We will know if WW drops beneath 40% in 2 turns (FS grows). But i suggest making peace with arabia too as our planned war is still about 70 turns away. Maybe that drops WW below 25% or 20% and we gain some breathing space.

Great Scientists
Worker can be in Kara in 7 turns earliest. Plus another 6 turns for the pasture. we can send 2 workers and speed it up to 7+3 turns.

But I cannot create a GS in Kara right now? Is this because everything has moved this turn? Or am I missing something here?
EDIT: I thought maybe this is something the barb team cannot do, but Ican create Scientists in a tesgame, so this is even more baffling.

1-5:Ban,Pig,Hor,For (39F, 1 axe + 40P)
6-8:Ban,Pig,Hor + 2S (42F, 9GPP, 64P)
9-13:Work Banana, Grass and Horses (0F, 39GPP, 94P)
14-32:Work Banana, Pigs(P) and Horses (30F,153GPP, 227P)

Diplo
Make peace with Arab
No further deals available this turn. Will try to get cosy with Persia and India when possible.

FS:
As planned by DJ

IS: I tend towards version A)
A) Run for Obelisk
1-5: Build City, move Worker
6-10: Iron + build Mine (0F, 15P)
10-15: Iron(M) + Road (0F, Obelisk +0P)
16- 30: Forest (30F, 30P) + Culture Expansion
31: For (33F, 32P)
32-39: For, Iron(M) (0F, 88P)

B) Grow then obelisk
1-5: Build City, move Worker
6-22: For (33+1F, 34P)
23-24: For, Iron(M) (1F, 5P) + Obelisk
25-39: For, Iron(M) (1F, 120P) + Culture Expansion

C) Rush Lib
1-5: Build City, move Worker
6-22: For (33+1F, 34P)
23-29: For, Iron(M) (1F, 98P) + Rushed Lib
30-38: For (17F, 18P) + Culture Expansion

Army:

ok in about 40 turns we can have

Kara: 1 Axe + 270 P
CS: ~320 P
IS: 120 P
The others will be able to throw in some minor additions

That would leave us with roughly:
5 Galleys
5 Axes
4 Swordsman
1 Spear
and some to spare for homeland defense.

Promotions on build:
Axe Combat2
SM Combat2
Spear Medic?

Thats about What I can think of. I would like to play tonite from 10pm CET onwards so please give additional input.

I think this all sounds really good. I think you're right about making peace with Arabia since the war is so far off. That would leave only China, so WW should hopefully decrease significantly.

I don't quite understand the numbers you give for building troops though. Where do those swordsmen come from? Should CS build 4 swords instead of the axes you've listed? In any case I think it looks like a decent attack force. I would consider CR1 instead of Combat2 for promotions though, in particular for the Swordsmen.

The scientists in K are a mystery though. Can't look at the save right now, but that's really something we need to shed some light on.

Needless to say (?) there's no point in promoting units when you build them. You can always promote them later when you know what they need.

I read something recently about a bug involving allocating scientists. I can't remember where right now. I can't load the save either. I agree with Niklas, we need to figure this out before we continue.

If we make peace with Arabia, we should be able to get some foreign trade routes? That might be a significant benefit. I would rather not make him more advanced technologically, but there's probably no help for it. As long as we can attack before he has longbows, landing a big mass of swords and catapults near his capital should do the job.

Re Builds:
Sorry Niklas, The numbers behind the cities where basically temporary numbers. When I added them all up, I remembered, that somewhere in the turnset we will have the ability to build Swordsman insteadt of axes. so insteadt of 10 Axes I said 5 Axes + 4 SM. My fault really.

Re Saladin and peace.
Well we can leave a small risk and only offer saladin peace when we have trouble with the WW, which we will know in 2 turns. Of course by then somebody could have slipped him Alpha in which case we would need to give him IW for peace.

Re Scientists:
I will not play today unless me or somebody else has resolved the scientist mystery.

Is Saladin in contact with anyone else? I can't check now.

Here's the posting about not being able to allocate scientists. A couple of responses in the thread, but no clear answer.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=5813266&postcount=1283

You might try playing around with the HOF options (specialist stacker, etc) and see if that makes any difference.

Looking good, just a few things.

I can hire scientists in K without problem (from the last uploaded save). But I don't understand your figures: with Banana, Pig, Horse + 2 scientists, K will do -1 fpt. After growth, it will of course have a partially filled foodbox, so we can sustain this a bit. It seems unnecessary to me to pasture the pigs, and a huge waste of worker turns.

I would not promote units when built. Rather, promote them later, when we use them.
I would not build bows. I would not train ground troops from a rax-less town (IS). And I would not train a galley from Kara, as it is a rax town.

P.S. I can load the game in about 36 hours from this post, that's the soonest I could check out the scientist problem and other issues.

Looking good, just a few things.

I can hire scientists in K without problem (from the last uploaded save). But I don't understand your figures: with Banana, Pig, Horse + 2 scientists, K will do -1 fpt. After growth, it will of course have a partially filled foodbox, so we can sustain this a bit. It seems unnecessary to me to pasture the pigs, and a huge waste of worker turns.

Another typo in trying to clear things up. After 2 Hours of schmeing I was obviously a bit tired.
The correct version:
1-5:Ban,Pig,Hor,For (39F, 1 axe + 40P)
6-8:Ban,Pig,Hor + 1S (42F, 9GPP, 64P)
9-13:Work Banana, Grass and Horses +2S (0F, 39GPP, 94P)
14-32:Work Banana, Pigs(P) and Horses +2S (30F,153GPP, 227P)


I would not promote units when built. Rather, promote them later, when we use them.
I would not build bows. I would not train ground troops from a rax-less town (IS). And I would not train a galley from Kara, as it is a rax town.

The list of builds was not meant to be correct So I will delete them now.
Also somewhere we need these 5 Galleys to be build. IS can do 2 if we delay the attack even more, maybe 1 or 2 can be rushed in FS and SR. Also Everything I build now will only be an axeman. So I would rather build a few galleys or cheap units for homeland defense now.


its 1030pm and I am still at work, ergo I will not play tonite. Sorry

I deactivated the Specialist stacker and tehn it worked after reopening the city screen.

We don't need that many galleys right away, I think. We can probably just ship troops over in stages.

Just to mention to the team that I am back, and should be able to play probably end of the week if needed, when I'll catch up on your progression...

Seems like Smurkz habit of talking is even present, so :goodjob: even if it means I need to read some of it at least (unless someone volunteers for a resume, which I do not hope since you should focus on, well real-life and playing of course :lol:)

Glad to be back, and let's go Smurkz :king:

Just to mention to the team that I am back, and should be able to play probably end of the week if needed, when I'll catch up on your progression...

Yay, we need more participants and points of view. Discussion is good but often we need a new angle to form a new plan. Also we need more voices to form consensus.

Do we? I would argue that Alex is the better target, we could strike earlier and the gains are presumably greater (Pyramids!).

I'm not sure that Pyramids are better at this point than Great Lighthouse. Some enthusiasm has been expressed for cash rushing, but unless we suddenly start building lots of cottages, I can't see us having much money for that. We could always build warriors and upgrade them, if we really want to convert cash into units. Most likely we would choose Representation for the +2 happiness in our main cities. Certainly nice, but +2 trade routes in every city is pretty big, too.

Saladin would also give us a religion we can spread.

My main concern about an early attack on Saladin would be not that we can't win, but we'll lose a lot of units and not be particularly well placed for further wars. Attacking with catapults we have a much better chance of keeping most of our units and ending up with many of them promoted. Of course this assumes we don't have to face longbows. :blush:

Yay, we need more participants and points of view. Discussion is good but often we need a new angle to form a new plan. Also we need more voices to form consensus.

I'll manage to catch up quicker then :D
From a really quick look without spending too much time on it, I tend to see Arabia as a better target, mostly because we are already at war with him and ww is a strong issue....

Of course Pyramids are yummy, mostly for representation at this point (+2 hapiness, plus we probably will use specialists since we are happiness limited....).

I see the Iron Smurkz trick to get to Alex. Since we do not pay for building maintenance :), lib will be useful IF we do not work the Iron. Tricky situation indeed. I tend to think I'd go library, chopped and pop rushed as quickly as possible, then cottage with a lightouse (working iron when size 4) in IS. I do not have the exact numbers, but it is probably the best we can get from the city...

I'll try to get more ideas tomorrow, I really need to read your posts to avoid repetition.

I haven't been following the IS discussion, but I don't see much point to a library there. Since we need lots of units, the city is going to do more for us by generating 6 hpt from the iron hill, than it ever will through commerce. And how much is 25% of 50% of a small amount of commerce, really?

I haven't been following the IS discussion, but I don't see much point to a library there. Since we need lots of units, the city is going to do more for us by generating 6 hpt from the iron hill, than it ever will through commerce. And how much is 25% of 50% of a small amount of commerce, really?

The thing is that we'll get the 6hpt any time we want, but it will stop city growth... Unless we farm the forest, which cannot be done until CS I think ? It's true that 25% of a small amount of commerce will be really small, since we can only expect commerce from sea and maybe 2 cottages (which should be farm when possible anyway). So monument ? Prechopping a forest can be good to hurry the monument, since IS will be a size 2 city for most of its life any way...

Preturn:
Switch to Math
Science to 0%
Switch FS to Worker
Saladin has no friends. therefore I decide not yet to trade with him.

IBT:
Kara Axe --> Spear

Turn 148:
Switch FS back to Lib.

IBT:
SR Settler --> Lib
FS grows
War weariness stays at 1 at size 5. So as long as we can get happyness ressources somewhere we will be fine.

Turn 149:
Rush Worker at FS.
War weariness is 0 at size 3. Therefore it will only be 1 at size 6 I presume.
Its down to at size 4 too in Karakorum.
Rush Granary in PS

IBT:
FS Worker --> Lib
PS Gran --> Obelisk I will switch that to a lib wasting the 6 hammers left.

Turn 150:
PS --> Lib

Turn 151:

Found Iron Smurks costs us another 7 in Maintenance. Right now we are down to +11 with 100% Money.

Turn 152:
Switch Kara to first Scientist.

Turn 153:
Nothing

IBT:
Kara Spear --> Axe
CS Axe --> Axe
We get meditation and Priesthood. Niw we only need a religion.

Turn 154:
Nothing

IBT:
Kara Grows
SR Grows (unhappy)
Mecca founds a great Person (Should be Merchant)

Turn 155:
Hire second Scientist in Kara
Rush Lib in SR.

Turn 156:
Somehow forgot to rush SR last turn. Do it now.

IBT:
FS Lib --> Baracks
SR Lib --> Galley

Turn 157
Nothing.

Open Ends:
Kara needs to switch to the pigs once the pasture is done.
When the Obelisk in IS is finished we should consider if we want to develop the city or use it just as unit Powerhouse.
The Spear is currently moving toward IS for attack on the greek.

I think we missed an important fact in the Math research. By the time our GS is created the Scientists will have researched 200b themselves.

Nothing really good came up on the diplo front. Saladin asked once for peace vs. Alpha and I declined. We have no trade network to the rest of the world until teh clture bridge si spawned. And nobody wants open Borders.

Here is your Session Turn Log from 295 BC to 145 BC:

Turn 147, 295 BC: Logging Game to File: sgotm5_1.txt
Turn 147, 295 BC: You have made peace with Cyrus!
Turn 147, 295 BC: You have made peace with Tokugawa!
Turn 147, 295 BC: You have made peace with Asoka!
Turn 147, 295 BC: You have made peace with Isabella!
Turn 147, 295 BC: Logging Game to File: sgotm5_2.txt

Turn 148, 280 BC: You have trained a Settler in Smurkz Rockz. Work has now begun on a Library.

Turn 149, 265 BC: You have trained a Worker in Fort Smurx. Work has now begun on a Library.
Turn 149, 265 BC: You have constructed a Granary in Ponte Smurkzo. Work has now begun on a Obelisk.

Turn 151, 235 BC: Iron Smurkz has been founded.

Turn 153, 205 BC: Tokugawa converts to Hinduism!
Turn 153, 205 BC: You have discovered Meditation!
Turn 153, 205 BC: You have discovered Priesthood!

Turn 154, 190 BC: Xi Ling Shi has been born in Mecca!

Turn 155, 175 BC: Ponte Smurkzo will grow to size 2 on the next turn

Turn 156, 160 BC: Fort Smurx will grow to size 4 on the next turn
Turn 156, 160 BC: Ponte Smurkzo has grown to size 2

I think we missed an important fact in the Math research. By the time our GS is created the Scientists will have researched 200b themselves.

Sure, but we can put them in Drama, or Metal Casting, or COL. No reason to research Mathematics now, if we're going to lightbulb it.

How many beakers are we getting for free in Mathematics, from the other civs?

I'll be home this evening (8 hours or so) and can download the file and post some more comments. It's not too late to return to a plan of researching Mathematics directly, if we want to. We haven't really lost any time.

We are getting about 2 or 3 bpt from the other civs. All in All we are gained about 60 beakers during my turnset. Sorry, but I never thought about putting them into MC or drama instead.

>save link< (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm5/Smurkz_SG005_BC0145_01.Civ4SavedGame)

@Kulko: :goodjob:
We should get Poly during next turnset.
Next in line for bulbing after math is Compass I think.

From my perspective, to get something out of IS we could:
- barracks (chopped probably) and keep size 2 to work iron
- lib+lighthouse to get some science (not much)
- after CS we could chain farm the to forests to get a little more (can we farm desert btw ??? never tried that....)

In any case I agree with DaviddesJ that apart from units we will probably do net get much from there, so probably barracks only waiting for CS (Biology ?) later to decide.

On a side note if we go for Drama self-research, we could bulb philo and get a religion....

Desert can't be farmed, even with CS/Biology. Might as well wait to chop the forests until we have Mathematics, since it's so close.

Do we want COL for courthouses? Or are we not going to bother to build courthouses, in favor of just cranking out units? I am inclined to think we probably want COL, if nothing else we might want to poprush courthouses in new cities we capture that can't initially support their full population anyway. We can get Philosophy via COL rather than Drama, although it doesn't seem so useful to us either way (we'll get Confucianism when we conquer Saladin). We know Saladin has COL, we might be able to get it from him for peace at some point, that would be an argument against putting beakers into COL now.

Good job, Kulko!

I'm not sure how much I can contibute to the discussions, you guys have already covered most bases. One thing I am a bit curious about though is the plan to bulb Maths, isn't that a pretty cheap tech considering the potential of the GS? He is good for more than twice the beakers so I would have thought trying to bulb Philo woudl be a better option.

I also think DaviddesJ has a point with CoL over Drama. Lowering maintenance is valuable in the long run. So, self research or hoping to bag it from trade/peace. I think self research is the best road forward, if nothing else Saladin will probably have other techs we can get if we wnat to twist his arm later. Unless Drama and Theatres are important for our plans to come together nicely.

He is good for more than twice the beakers so I would have thought trying to bulb Philo woudl be a better option.

How is Philosophy going to help us at all? Pacifism seems unlikely to be useful. Founding Taoism doesn't seem useful either (why not just spread Confucianism when we get it from Saladin?). Trade value is irrelevant if no one will trade with us.

I'd rather get a cheap tech that helps us than an expensive tech that doesn't. I am open to an argument for Philosophy but I want to hear what the point is.

Compass seems a better choice for bulbing to me, if we can get to Math by ourselves... Philo has no value if we plan to attack Saladin soon, since he has a religion.

Science-wise, our main target should still be construction, right ? After that, Chemistry is probably our best next stop, I always find grenades THE way to kill AIs. This is of course long term, but I am unsure we can win before.

EDIT: after catching on team thread, I must precise that this is only my opinion, and that as DaviddesJ, I am of course open to disscussion on use of Philo or not (too silly to loose team members).

Good going Kulko! :)

Roster:
DaviddesJ
Kulko - Just Played
zyxy - UP!
unkle - On Deck!
Niklas - Warming Up
Wotan
Methos - Lurking
Marc Aurel - Lost


@zyxy: Now it's really your turn!

Also I put in unkle after zyxy, he hasn't been given the chance to play yet, but I thought he could use another turnset to watch first. :)

Good going Kulko! :)
Also I put in unkle after zyxy, he hasn't been given the chance to play yet, but I thought he could use another turnset to watch first. :)

For sure !
I still need getting used to the particularities of being teamed up with the barbs...

Compass is not bad; we don't need the health from harbors, but we build them at 50% cost, and they will synergize with the Great Lighthouse when we capture that from Saladin. I would not mind using a 2nd GS to lightbulb Compass (even though that also "wastes" beakers).

It seems to me really unlikely that we will ever research as far as Chemistry. I'm not even sure that we will get to Guilds. If we do, I'm sure we can conquer the world with knights.

knights are not (imho) great city takers, too spears/pikes dependant.
mace upgrade to grenades I think, which make them great...

Of course I'd rather have won before :rolleyes: :lol:

knights are not (imho) great city takers, too spears/pikes dependant.

Knight vs spear is not a problem. E.g., combat-2 knight vs fortified spear = 12:9 = 1.33:1. I agree that pikes are a problem for knights, but they are very easily defeated by axemen; e.g., combat-1 CR-2 axeman vs fortified spear = 5.5:3.5 = 1.56:1. Or you can soften them up with collateral damage.

Combined Longbow+Pikes is troubleome for Knight+Axes. Agreed on cats as a very efficient way of handling the issue though. I would rather see cats+mace as an better force in this case, Knighs being great in the field to pillage metals and kill easy open targets.

I may very well be too negative on knights though, since it is a unit I almost never build... cavalry being usually for me at that time not too far.

I may very well be too negative on knights though, since it is a unit I almost never build... cavalry being usually for me at that time not too far.

OK, but that's just your choice of research path. You can get knights much sooner than cavalry. The cost to research to knights is about the same as to research to macemen, and knights are, overall, better than macemen. Knights easily defeat longbowmen, which are by far the most common defenders in this era, while macemen have somewhat more difficulty and will take higher losses (especially against cities on hills). On the other hand, Civil Service has other advantages. And, in this game, we're aggressive so our macemen would get an extra promotion, which is significant, and it's not Warlords so we can't build stables which favor the knights. So, in this particular game, I would favor trying to get macemen over knights, although I don't know if we'll be able to get either unless we can make a friend who will do some tech trading with us.

Aggressive + CR promotions : yummy knights.
I agree that I am probably biased against knights, so let's open the discussion on what we should research to mass conquest the world....

EDIT: not yummy knights, yummy macemen of course...

Well done, Kulko!

Got it.

Military: we are already paying 3 gpt in upkeep. (Does this somehow depend on city size?) We have a useless scout, and I intend to retire him. I can send a warrior that way as a lookout.
It will take 20 turns before the cultural bridge is ready. In that time, we can build 2 axes and 4-5 swords from K, CS and FS.

Research: we have 113/730 beakers invested in Math, with 22 turns to go until the GS. Break-even speed towards Math would be 23-24 turns. Highest deficit speed is about 15 turns.
As we also need to research construction, I think bulbing Math is better. The beakers from the scientists can be stored in CoL, and the sci rate can be set to 0 for building a nice treasury.
If we want to get another GS, then we could hire two scientists in SR as well (after it grows in 3 turns). This seems a good idea to me.

Cities:

K: switch to pigs in 4 turns. Build axe -> sword. Probably whip it down when it grows.
FS: rax -> sword.
SR: galley. Hire 2 scientists in 3 turns.
CS: axe -> sword.
PS: whip lib when possible.
IS: obelisk -> lighthouse?


Other:

We can gift Meditation to Cyrus in an attempt to improve relations, and this seems worth it. He's the only one that doesn't have it. We can also gift Alpha to Asoka, but that may be too valuable.
We still suffer from WW, would it help to make peace with Saladin? We apparently cannot make peace with Qin, so maybe not.
Do we want another city in the SW? Probably not, too expensive.
Workers can clear jungle, and build mines and cottages around IS and SR. I would rather not chop forests now, and wait for Maths.
We'll pop two goody huts in 8 turns.

Until we can irrigated the grass in IS I would just straight build units there. Each turn we spend growing wastes 5 hpt and we will not get that back any time soon.

Therefore the next build in IS would be baracks or start building the transportation Galleys.

The only problem I have is that our economy is at risk with a lot of troops and small towns. But you're right that the 5 hpt are hard to compensate.

Do we need more galleys than 2?

I haven't loaded the save, but a few general comments:

I think we probably do need more than 2 galleys; sooner or later we can hardly avoid fighting Saladin's galleys, and we want to have enough that if we lose a fight with one of his, we can finish off the wounded survivor.

Second GS would be for Compass? I can go either way on this one.

I do not see any point in lighthouse in IS.

Military support depends on total population, as we grow our cities our support cost will go down (unless we also build more units). We do need to avoid paying maintenance for 50 turns on obsolete units. I can't disagree with disbanding the scout.

I don't think we want any more cities.

David's and Kulko's wishes will be granted. :D

I'll wait a few hrs for more input. Then, I intend to write a plan later tonight and play tomorrow evening.

Unless we're going to be able to eventually get Open Borders with some opponents, I'm not sure that Compass for harbors is all that exciting. Even if we capture the Great Lighthouse, the harbor is only +1 commerce when we have only internal trade routes. Is that going to be worth even our reduced cost of 45 hammers?

Plan.


Military: retire the scout, and send a warrior to replace him as lookout.
Research: we have 113/730 beakers invested in Math. Switch research to CoL, with sci rate set to 0. Math will be finished by a GS in 22 turns.
Diplo: gift Meditation to Cyrus to improve relations. Try to sign OB with anyone when possible.
Workers will clear jungle, and build mines and cottages around IS and SR. I will not chop forests now, and wait for Maths.


Cities:

K: switch to pigs in 4 turns. Build axe -> sword. Probably whip it down 2 sizes when it grows. Keep 2 scientists.
FS: rax -> sword.
SR: galley. Hire 2 scientists in 3 turns. To me this seems better than working the coast: we get more beakers this way, and we don't really need food. The extra GS has no immediate use perhaps, although he can always build an academy somewhere - or perhaps bulb Machinery, if we get Compass in some other way.
CS: axe -> sword.
PS: whip lib asap.
IS: obelisk -> galleys.


Other notes:

We can gift Alpha to Asoka, but it seems too valuable a tech.
We can sign peace with Saladin for Alpha, but it is unclear whether this will decrease WW. I prefer to wait until Qin will also sign peace.
No additional cities for the moment - get CoL first.
We'll pop two goody huts in 8 turns.

SR: galley. Hire 2 scientists in 3 turns. To me this seems better than working the coast: we get more beakers this way, and we don't really need food. The extra GS has no immediate use perhaps, although he can always build an academy somewhere - or perhaps bulb Machinery, if we get Compass in some other way.

As our empire gets bigger, the relative cost to produce GPP gets less and less. So, if we aren't going to use the GS when we get it, then it's generally preferable to wait and pop it later when we need it. Of course, it's tricky to predict when we'll need it, and it's 50 turns with 2 scientists to get it. So we have to plan well ahead.

Another argument against more GPP now is that we will capture some wonders that generate GPP, by using those cities we need fewer GPP for our 2nd great person. We're also committing to generate GS, while later we might have the opportunity to get GM or GE or GP, any of which could be more useful.

Food is always useful because we can convert it to hammers with slavery.

P.S. In the next few hours, I should be able to load the save and comment on the other details.

We could also keep working on Mathematics, settle the first GS in Karakorum, continue for a second GS planning to build academy in Karakorum. It would be interesting to work out how soon we can expect to get to Construction under this plan, as opposed to bulbing. It might not be all that much longer, and we would have considerably more research capacity.

The settled GS provides 7.5 beakers/turn; if we were expecting 30 turns to research Construction after bulbing Mathematics, that's 225 beakers, which multiplies by about 1.5 for prerequisite bonuses and other-civ bonuses, so that's 337. We're also getting 6 beakers from our 2 scientists in K for 22 turns, and 6 beakers from 2 scientists in SR for about 20 turns, so that's about 240 beakers that would have gone into COL, which we can put into Mathematics productively instead, so that's another 360 beakers. So that's already enough to pay for Mathematics, and we're also getting 5 beakers/turn from other civs toward Mathematics, which is another 100 beakers or so.

My conclusion: this looks better than the lightbulb. I think it may well get us to Construction sooner, and our future research capacity will definitely be greater.

P.S. Under this plan, we should still run 0% science for a while longer, because we're getting more free beakers in Math than we will in Construction.

I like the sound of this last plan by DaviddesJ. Does anyone see a drawback with it? Otherwise I think the plan zyxy posted looks good. :thumbsup:

I'm happy with it, although I don't follow the math. It seems to me that:

If we bulb Math, our GS produces about 600 beakers.
If we settle the GS, then he produces 7.5 beakers/turn (is this 7 or 8?). Break even point is reached in 80 [75-85] turns.

EDIT: Oh, I'm getting it now - it's about research time to construction.

Turn 157, 145BC: retire the scout, and send a warrior from CS to replace him. Set research to 0%. Gift Meditation to Cyrus. He goes from cautious to annoyed?? :hmm: Some of our units are on automove :nono:.

Turn 158, 130BC: iron is no connected, and FS has grown into unhappiness. It gains the WW point upon growth to size 4. This means that SR cannot use the 4th citizen either, so I switch to one scientist now.

Turn 159, 115BC:
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b293/zyxy/Smurkz4_5_BC0115_Poly.jpg

Turn 160, 100BC: CS Axe -> Sword.

Turn 161, 85BC: K axe -> sword.

Turn 162, 70BC: SR grows to size 4 and is now unhappy. IS obelisk -> galley, I set the town to grow one size. Cyrus declares on Asoka!

Turn 163, 55BC: Christianity founded in Nanking, and Parthenon is built somewhere.

Turn 164, 40BC: An Arabian archer-settler pair appears in the SW. I send an axe that way.

Turn 165, 25BC: Our two goodie huts are popped by a border expansion: they give 42 gold and
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b293/zyxy/Smurkz4_5_BC0025_Drama.jpg
:dance:

Set culture rate to 10%, and hire 2nd scientist in SR. Switch IS back to iron mine to finish the galley on time.

Turn 166, 10BC: FS rax -> sword.

Turn 167, 5AD: Arabian galley is suddenly empty, a barb axe disappeared and a barb archer is wounded. I guess Saladin landed, and lost his settler pair to the barbs...

The save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm5/Smurkz_SG005_AD0005_01.Civ4SavedGame).

Next up: unkle!

I'm happy with it, although I don't follow the math. It seems to me that:

If we bulb Math, our GS produces about 600 beakers.
If we settle the GS, then he produces 7.5 beakers/turn (is this 7 or 8?). Break even point is reached in 80 [75-85] turns.

EDIT: Oh, I'm getting it now - it's about research time to construction.

1. There are two different kinds of beakers. There are beakers produced by your researchers, and there are beakers invested in technologies. These are not the same, because you multiply the beakers that your researchers generate by several factors in order to get the beakers that go into a technology: 1.20 for prerequisites, and 1.11 (I think) for other civs that know the tech, for a total multiplier of 1.34. In other words, we only need our researchers to generate 450 beakers to research Mathematics (from the time you posted this), not 600. And reduce that by another 50+ for free beakers from other civs while we're working on it.

2. As you say, another significant factor of the benefit is putting our scientist beakers into something we can use now (Mathematics), rather than something we won't learn for many turns (Code of Laws).

3. The 7.5 might be either 7 or 8, it depends on rounding. I.e., take all of the other commerce from Karakorum that goes into research, add 6 from the settled great scientist, and multiply by 1.25 for the library. E.g., if we are at 0% research then it would be +7 (i.e., 6*1.25, rounded down). But if Karakorum is generating 18 beakers from research, then the benefit from the settled great scientist is +8 (i.e., 24*1.25 = 30, vs 18*1.25 = 22).

Drama, woohoo! Best turnset ever! Should we think of building theaters now? We should work out marginal value of running at 10-20% culture for extra happiness. Theaters are best if we build lots of them.

:banana: :banana: :banana:

That's probably the best tech we could have popped! Looking at our score graph we're fairly well off, and that's even before we start conquering! We're on a roll. :D

Roster:
DaviddesJ
Kulko
zyxy - Just Played
unkle - UP!
Niklas - On Deck!
Wotan - Warming Up
Methos - Lurking
Marc Aurel - Lost


@unkle: Time for your real return into Smurkzdom! :D

@zyxy:
:crazyeye: well done !!!
Back into Smurkzdom !! I'll post a plan during the week-end, most probably on sunday, since I am away tomorrow until, well late :blush: (I know).

Anyway look forward for inputs before plan. Somehow we want to catch on the greeks, so let's look into how that can be done.

Really nice turnset Zyxy! The Barbs influencing our WW is a weird and as far as I can understand it difficult factor to keep tabs on. Drama was a great addition though, a spark of joy!

Okay some first thoughts.
Expansion in IS is due in 10 turns, and we should be able to go into Alex lands at that time.
Here is what would happen in this period, without much choice

* Karak: 4 turns: finish sword, sword again
7 turns: grow size 6 (still happy), work forest
sword would have 33 h at turn ten
* FS : 8 turns grow size 5 (still happy), work plain/river
9 turns, sword ready
* SR : 2 turns, finish galley
start Sword, due in 12 turns
no growth
* CS : 1 turn, sword
7 turn, sword
* PS : lib in 10 turns
PS can whip the lib, probably best is just after it grows size 4, bu then we can whip for 2 pop, granting 60 hammers which should over flow into a galley/sword/axe depending on needs.

which would grant us 2 galleys, 3 axes, 4 swords, 1 spear (which I'd take in case Alex has chariots). This requires 2 transports from our galleys.

Cyrus and Asoka would OB with us.

When did Saladin put a city on the island east ?

On another note, I'd like to be sure we want to go with Greece first. I know that Pyramids are a must, but:
- Saladin is at war with us
- He has a relligion
- He is getting really close...

I'll post a final plan tomorrow after some team thought.

Btw Parthenon built in Athen, alread holding the pyramids. This city will have some culture....

On another note, I'd like to be sure we want to go with Greece first. I know that Pyramids are a must, but:
- Saladin is at war with us
- He has a relligion
- He is getting really close...
The main reason we're planning to go for Alex first is not the Pyramids, but the fact that we don't dare go after Saladin before we have catapults to help us. Construction is still some ways off, so we're looking for a supposedly easier targer first. But we don't know though, Athens could also be on a hill, so it may all be a fool's errand.

The city of Saladin was the main reason to sail the galley over there.

As for Drama, I think we should build theaters as soon as we have finished a big enough fighting force. Right now we are running always into happyness issues ass soon as we grow to a productive Size.

Best turnset ever!

Thanks for all the nice comments, although of course it was pure luck.

And David, thanks for the explanation on beakers.

@unkle: the eastern Arabian city was placed a few turnsets ago. It will not be growing fast, obviously, and is only useful to us once we get Calendar.

The main problem for us now (IMO) is that our troops cost a lot of gpt, and research is slow. Also, once we start conquering, we'll need CoL to build courts.

I agree with OB with Asoka and Cyrus.

Alex has grabbed silver, which is somewhat useful to us. We probably need to wipe him out completely...

Thanks for all the nice comments, although of course it was pure luck.


Nanananana. We all now best players are also lucky ;)

Okay, here is the plan, unless I hear some negative comments, I'll play tomorrow, mid-day, Europe time.

Diplo
OB with Asoka and Cyrus.

Cities
Cities will go on building units (swords mainly) as planned in previous post
* Karak: 4 turns: finish sword, sword again
7 turns: grow size 6 (still happy), work forest
sword would have 33 h at turn ten
* FS : 8 turns grow size 5 (still happy), work plain/river
9 turns, sword ready
* SR : 2 turns, finish galley
start Sword, due in 12 turns
no growth
* CS : 1 turn, sword
7 turn, sword
* PS : lib in 10 turns
PS can whip the lib, probably best is just after it grows size 4, bu then we can whip for 2 pop, granting 60 hammers which should over flow into a galley/sword/axe depending on needs.

I do not plan to go for theaters in my turnset.
I do not plan to attack during these 10 turns (how could I).
I will try to add another galley, since I do fear Saladin (and would like to scout some of Alex'sland after war declaration (spy will be missed....). Which also means I *could* check if I have options in the diplo screen for preventing him to attack us (ie peace at a cheap price). Of course, OB-ing with Cyrus would not help on this (I'll do that anyway).

Plan looks very good to me.

Even though you will not start the war, I would suggest to place the troops such that the next player can start the war asap.

If Saladin gets really nasty, you can always stop for feedback, and we could consider peace. However, he will then try to settle in our SW, so war may be better for us.

Good choice on the lib whip.

Please check for deals with Cyrus and Asoka. OB might help to get them happier with us...

Agreed with zyxy on all accounts. Plan looks good, so please play on. Oh, and make sure that the next player can have some fun attacking, won't you? I wonder who that might be now... :mischief:

Cyrus and Asoka are at war with each other. OB with Cyrus is definitely a good idea, we can get a significant economic boost when we complete our cultural bridge to the east and establish trade routes with him. OB with Asoka will get us little benefit, he's too backward to ever be much help to us. We might get negatives for trading with Cyrus's worst enemy? We could do OB with Cyrus and war with Asoka. We would risk some WW, but we might get mutual military struggle points with Cyrus.

We're only 25-30 turns from Construction. My suggestion would be: disband our warriors to save money, switch our production cities to theaters to delay further runup in support costs and to allow growth for more production and military support, then back to military buildup, add a couple of catapults as soon as we get Construction, and go after Saladin first.

Athens could be on a hill, and even if not, it may have too many archers for us to take. If we take it, but at the cost of many swordsmen, that's not really so great either. It's hard for me to believe that 4 swords is going to be even close to enough. To take out 4 archers in a 60% culture city without catapults, we'll need around 10 swords, of which many will be lost. By the time we could build that many, we will have Construction anyway. And I would rather take cities while also preserving most of our troops for future battles.

:sad: Aww, but I wanted to fight! ;)

You might have a point though, but that requires more discussion IMO. Are we really as close as possibly 25 turns to Construction?

Currently we need 389 beakers for Math and 1023 for Construction. We get 1.2 multiplier for Construction, and about 1.3 multiplier for Mathematics. So that means we need to generate 389/1.3+1023/1.2 = 1152 beakers. Barbarians are giving 2/turn, and we get free 1/turn, which is 75 over 25 turns. If we get 2/turn from other civs in Mathematics, that's 30 over 15 turns. We'll have a great scientist in 12 turns, which is 98 over the subsequent 13 turns. So we need to generate 1152-75-30-98 = 949 over 25 turns, which is 38/turn. Currently, if we run at 70% research and 10% commerce, we generate 35 beakers/turn and -14 gold/turn, which would be -10 gold/turn if we disbanded 4 warriors, which we can sustain for 25 turns. So we're very close to Construction in 25 turns even if we don't allow for any economic growth over those 25 turns. I certainly think we can do it in less than 30.

By the way, we could accelerate growth in Karakorum by shifting one scientist to a farm for one turn. Since we have 69 GPP to go, this won't delay the GS at all (as long as we move it back the next turn).

On the subject of theaters, it's true that not too many of our cities really want to grow bigger soon. Karakorum could definitely benefit from theater, if we're going to run at 10% culture (or more) indefinitely. But not clear who else can use it.

By the way, I think we should be building farm rather than cottage near PS.

Also, we really should re-clear the bananas near CS, and perhaps put a cottage there as a placeholder until Calendar. And a farm 2W of CS, as well. And a mine 2W1N of CS, giving +1 commerce over the mine we're working now.

Cottage near SR is not all that usefu