Remember, the 2 workers are about to complete the chop on the second forest. Those hammers will overflow the settler and go to the next build, unless they're paused.

Remember, the 2 workers are about to complete the chop on the second forest. Those hammers will overflow the settler and go to the next build, unless they're paused.

Yes, I will probably address this by queuing up all the builds for the turn set to avoid any nasty surprises with hammers going to the wrong build.

I did a fairly long test game where I kept postponing the barracks and it didn't seem to cause any hammer decay so I would actually like to build a warrior for fog busting before settler instead of finalizing barracks. In my test it means that settler is finished when there are 3 turns left of IW. I used the build order:

Karakorum: Worker, warrior, settler, barracks
Beshbalik: Warrior, warrior

The two workers improved the rice and then the gold and when Beshbalik reached size 2 it started working the gold to speed research. After this the workers started pre-chopping the forests near Beshbalik and after that the forests near the copper. Alternatively they could have farmed more tiles along the river but it seemed a little pointless right now. The worker in Karakorum chopped the remaining forest and farmed the grassland 2S.

Karakorum: Worker, warrior, settler, barracks
Beshbalik: Warrior, warrior

That build order looks good to me. I know leif wants a work boat, but I'm wondering what info one might provide that the barbs won't show us soon enough.

We're going to have to have a metal city, so establishing a second city before we know where the horses are does not concern me greatly, but I would definitely like to know where the iron is before committing to a copper city. Given a choice, I'd much prefer iron to copper. If the settler comes out three turns before IW, then that should work out. A consultation the turn we get IW might be appropriate, if there is more than one good city-site option.

Karakorum: Worker, warrior, settler, barracks
Beshbalik: Warrior, warrior

That build order looks good to me. I know leif wants a work boat, but I'm wondering what info one might provide that the barbs won't show us soon enough.
This is fine by me. Should we not have Iron on the island, I would like to get that Work Boat built and search nearby. I don't think Iron would be denied to us, however, I do think we may have to find it? ;)

We're going to have to have a metal city, so establishing a second city before we know where the horses are does not concern me greatly, but I would definitely like to know where the iron is before committing to a copper city. Given a choice, I'd much prefer iron to copper. If the settler comes out three turns before IW, then that should work out. A consultation the turn we get IW might be appropriate, if there is more than one good city-site option.
I doubt that IW will come in during the next 15 turns. The next turn set should be decision time, or really close to it. I would also prefer Iron.

We cannot forget about that western city that will allow us to go to the big island. :deadhorse: Don't mean to nag but it will require some time to get its borders expanded, once the Barbs get Mysticism for us. :D Perhaps Iron will be located there???? :rolleyes:

I'd prefer to get the border city founded after the gold city.

I doubt that IW will come in during the next 15 turns. The next turn set should be decision time, or really close to it. I would also prefer Iron.

Actually I want to suggest that I play until I reach a predefined breakpoint rather than a fixed number of turns. I think the two previous turn sets by MP and rrau show that its much more logical to stop when new information is available. Particularly in this game where we have very slow research and don't have to fear barb attacks that could introduce a random element. I would suggest the breakpoint is either when the 2nd settler is done or maybe even better when IW is discovered. Since I played through this in a quite similar test game I should be able to play the turns quickly as soon as we have decided on build orders and what to do with the workers.

We cannot forget about that western city that will allow us to go to the big island. :deadhorse: Don't mean to nag but it will require some time to get its borders expanded, once the Barbs get Mysticism for us. :D Perhaps Iron will be located there???? :rolleyes:

I was planning to use a warrior to fog bust around that city site ("Bridge City" ?). The probability of finding iron there is zero unless Gyathaar has done some editing and placed iron in the jungle. Otherwise resources will always show up on "blank" tiles.

I'd prefer to get the border city founded after the gold city.

I think the next (3rd) city should be the one that gives us access to metal - either copper or iron. Only if we already have access to iron in our existing cities would I contemplate founding the Bridge City. We need metal to build an army and only when the army is ready do we need the access to the big continent.

If you have the time and are able to play through IW, I have no problem with your doing so. Anyone else?

I only ask that if something unusual happens, that you post.

Good luck. :thumbsup:

Got to run, supper calling!!:D

If you have the time and are able to play through IW, I have no problem with your doing so. Anyone else?

I only ask that if something unusual happens, that you post.

Good luck. :thumbsup:

Got to run, supper calling!!:D

I would surely stop and post if something unexpected happens. Chance of this is rather slim though.

A summary of my plan for the turn set:

build order:

Karakorum: Settler (3 turns), worker, warrior, settler, barracks
Beshbalik: Warrior, warrior, barracks

I'm a little unsure of the build order in Beshbalik - maybe one warrior is enough before we start barracks. If we learn Mysticism before IW do we want an Obelisk in Beshbalik? When it expands it border it will pop the two huts.

The two workers escort the settler to the green city site SE of the gold where they start improving the rice and then the gold and when Beshbalik reaches size 2 it starts working the gold to speed research. After this the workers start pre-chopping the forests near Beshbalik and then the forests near the copper. Alternatively they can farm more tiles along the river but it seems a little pointless right now. The worker in Karakorum chops the remaining forest 1W and farm the grassland 2S.

We will surely learn fishing and hunting soon through barb research while Wheel, AH and Mysticism look as if they will come later than IW. If Wheel or AH picks up speed the workers can be used for pasturing the pigs (AH) or building roads rather than pre-chopping. Any road we need in particular?

Diplomacy: Since the barb axes (10 of them!!) seem to be doing a good job of keeping the competition occupied and pillaging their resources I suggest we don't make peace with any civ unless WW starts to bite.

Fog busting: The warrior built in Karakorum and the scout are sent to fog bust the Copper City site and the Bridge City site. The warriors built in Beshbalik will also be used for fog busting unless this means paying unit supply cost.

I could play Sunday evening if a consensus on the plan is reached by then.

I think the next (3rd) city should be the one that gives us access to metal - either copper or iron. Only if we already have access to iron in our existing cities would I contemplate founding the Bridge City. We need metal to build an army and only when the army is ready do we need the access to the big continent.

Also, we have access to Arabia without the bridge city site, so even if the bridge city has not nicely expanded when we have an army ready to go, it can thump the stuffing out of Arabia while we're waiting...

I'd also prefer a metal city before the bridge city.

I just had a horrible thought. I'm fairly sure that barbarian cities can pop up in tiles seen by barbarian units. That is to say, in tiles we can currently see. Does that mean also that they can pop up in tiles seen by the barbarian's team mates? (Which would make fog busting futile). Did you notice any such thing when you were playing your test game Frederiksberg? I never played a test game to such a point.

We will surely learn fishing and hunting soon through barb research while Wheel, AH and Mysticism look as if they will come later than IW. If Wheel or AH picks up speed the workers can be used for pasturing the pigs (AH) or building roads rather than pre-chopping. Any road we need in particular?

I expect barb research to speed up significantly during your turnset, F. Keep an eye on things there to see what speeds up so you can see a tech coming and if necessary get a worker in the right position at the right time :)


Diplomacy: Since the barb axes (10 of them!!) seem to be doing a good job of keeping the competition occupied and pillaging their resources I suggest we don't make peace with any civ unless WW starts to bite.

Yes, I'd llike to see what happens to those axes. There can't be too many axes out there among the other civs, so against archers, the aes have a chance of doing some damage, and certainly plundering since the AI will probably be unwilling to jump out of cities to attack an axe in the open, and if it does, it will lose more than it wins, one woujld think.

I could play Sunday evening if a consensus on the plan is reached by then.

Your plan looks generally good to me.

I like the idea of playing through to an event instead of the set number of turns. Especially this early. When the warfare kicks in, a more regular pattern can return.

Wish I had enough time to run a test game through into the late stages to help give some sage advice.

I would surely stop and post if something unexpected happens. Chance of this is rather slim though.

A summary of my plan for the turn set:

build order:

Karakorum: Settler (3 turns), worker, warrior, settler, barracks
Beshbalik: Warrior, warrior, barracks

I'm a little unsure of the build order in Beshbalik - maybe one warrior is enough before we start barracks. If we learn Mysticism before IW do we want an Obelisk in Beshbalik? When it expands it border it will pop the two huts.

The two workers escort the settler to the green city site SE of the gold where they start improving the rice and then the gold and when Beshbalik reaches size 2 it starts working the gold to speed research. After this the workers start pre-chopping the forests near Beshbalik and then the forests near the copper. Alternatively they can farm more tiles along the river but it seems a little pointless right now. The worker in Karakorum chops the remaining forest 1W and farm the grassland 2S.

We will surely learn fishing and hunting soon through barb research while Wheel, AH and Mysticism look as if they will come later than IW. If Wheel or AH picks up speed the workers can be used for pasturing the pigs (AH) or building roads rather than pre-chopping. Any road we need in particular?

Diplomacy: Since the barb axes (10 of them!!) seem to be doing a good job of keeping the competition occupied and pillaging their resources I suggest we don't make peace with any civ unless WW starts to bite.

Fog busting: The warrior built in Karakorum and the scout are sent to fog bust the Copper City site and the Bridge City site. The warriors built in Beshbalik will also be used for fog busting unless this means paying unit supply cost.

I could play Sunday evening if a consensus on the plan is reached by then.


Swing for the fences! All sounds reasonable to me.

"If we learn Mysticism before IW do we want an Obelisk in Beshbalik? When it expands it border it will pop the two huts."

I'm really puzzled. Why hasn't the scout popped the huts already? Scouts don't pop barbs, and they're our friends anyway. A monument doesn't seem at all worthwhile, but I must be missing something. BTW, we will want a warrior for each city on the island as an MP, and once we get iron hooked up we can no longer make these cheap policemen.

Very much like the idea of Frederiksberg playing to IW.

As the Barbs are on our team and the huts belong to them, we can't pop them. I would suggest that it is a bit like the Lion sitting in Karakorum. :) But they cannot exist within our cultural borders, so they have to pop on expansion. Might get something good out of it? :mischief:

I think the plan is as we have discussed and well laid out. Although the chance of being attacked from the east appears slim atm, it will be nice to see the cities connected by road to move troops if needed. I agree with your plan for the workers and I think that if The Wheel becomes available, getting resources connected to cities is important for the moment. City development is a more important worker task right now. Sailing will be needed for Galleys, but also to connect the cities until we can get roads built.

Playing to IW is a good idea. :high5:

Since we're on the same team as the barbs, we can't pop huts. [edit] Crossposted with Leif.

I'm OK with the plan. *hopes the iron shows up near where the border city needs to be*

Well, thanks . . . that was two instant answers.

Are we certain that we can pop barb huts with expansion? If so, then the question is whether we want to do it with a obelisk, a library, or wait for culture. What risk is there in waiting? What are we likely to get that we really need right now? The city itself will bust the fog, so aren't we safe from the barbs commandeering them? By waiting, we increase the value of any tech we might get and possibly(?) the quality of unit. Interesting to have new problems to deal with.

Are we certain that we can pop barb huts with expansion? If so, then the question is whether we want to do it with a obelisk, a library, or wait for culture. What risk is there in waiting? What are we likely to get that we really need right now? The city itself will bust the fog, so aren't we safe from the barbs commandeering them? By waiting, we increase the value of any tech we might get and the quality of unit. Interesting to have new problems to deal with.
Yes, I agree with you. There is little to lose in waiting to pop the huts. We have more pressing needs atm than an Obelisk? :yup:

In my test games with barbs, when the city expands, the hut just 'poofed' with no tech or gold or anyting.

In my test games with barbs, when the city expands, the hut just 'poofed' with no tech or gold or anyting.

Any reason to think this isn't our fate?

In my test games with barbs, when the city expands, the hut just 'poofed' with no tech or gold or anyting.

In my trials with leif's test game I got a map and a tech from the huts. If you got maps only you may not have noticed.

We can postpone the expansion since popping the huts is probably the only benefit right now. If we decide to shut down research at some point getting a tech from the huts may be of no help at all. It really depends on which techs we think we need before we go all in for the war...

Looks like the proposed build order stands i.e. no obelisk. I will keep track of barb research and reassign workers if Wheel or AH should come before IW. When the settler is done he will be moved south for a few turns until IW is discovered.

I will start playing in about an hour...

I will start playing in about an hour...
Good luck! :thumbsup: :high5: :cheers:

I have played my turns. Nothing unexpected came up and we do have iron on our island.

Turn log:

2170 BC: We learn how to fish.
2050 BC: WW is now showing but it's not a problem. Nobody wants peace anyway.
1960 BC: We learn how to hunt. Barb beakers for AH are 5 bpt, for Wheel 3 bpt and for Myst 2 bpt.
1930 BC: Beshbalik is founded.
1540 BC: We are getting beakers for Masonry and Pottery but the other techs have not picked up in speed. Looks like IW is our next tech.
1510 BC: One of the forests near Beshbalik got chopped :mad:. I had all units fortified by accident so the forrest was gone even though it said 2 turns left when I pressed enter. Since it's gone the worker might as well build a farm there.
1210 BC: Finally we have IW! Unfortunately iron is not placed conveniently but at least we have some on our island.

Research Status:

Priesthood 3/175 1/turn
Masonry 72/234 4/turn
Wheel 132/175 3/turn
Mysticism 115/145 3/turn
AH 225/292 5/turn
Pottery 42/234 2/turn
Meditation 6/234 2/turn
Polytheism 20/292 2/turn

The save: 1210BC (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm5/Xteam_SG005_BC1210_01.Civ4SavedGame)

Pics:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/90349/Iron0000.JPG
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/90349/Arabia0000.JPG
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/90349/Libyan0000.JPG

As you can see in the first picture iron is located in a place where almost no food is available. A possible city placement is in the desert 1N of the iron. Next picture shows northern Arabia - there is indeed an island with two clam that we might claim. Last picture shows the first barb city, Libyan, that spawned in the NE part of the big continent.

Our allies have not been able to capture any cities despite their wast number of axes. They have been able to pillage and harass the other civs somewhat - India in particular has been under heavy fire and their first settler was locked up in Delhi for a long time while barb axes were roaming Indian lands.

Autolog:
Turn 60, 2200 BC: You have discovered Fishing!

Turn 62, 2140 BC: Qin Shi Huang adopts Slavery!

Turn 64, 2080 BC: Saladin adopts Slavery!

Turn 65, 2050 BC: Tokugawa converts to Hinduism!

Turn 66, 2020 BC: Asoka adopts Slavery!

Turn 67, 1990 BC: You have discovered Hunting!

Turn 69, 1930 BC: Beshbalik has been founded.

Turn 74, 1780 BC: You have trained a Warrior in Karakorum. Work has now begun on a Settler.
Turn 74, 1780 BC: Alexander adopts Slavery!

Turn 75, 1750 BC: The borders of Karakorum have expanded!

Turn 81, 1570 BC: Judaism has been founded in a distant land!

Turn 82, 1540 BC: Isabella adopts Organized Religion!

Turn 86, 1420 BC: Stonehenge has been built in a far away land!

Turn 89, 1330 BC: You have trained a Settler in Karakorum. Work has now begun on a Barracks.

Turn 92, 1240 BC: You have discovered Iron Working!

:high5: Nice work Frederiksberg!! :rockon:

This should be an interesting discussion. Can we pick up Beshbalik and move it one east? :mischief:

CP as requested that we swap, so here's the
Roster:
Leif - UP
Cactus Pete - On Deck
Bede
Mad Professor
rrau
Frederiksberg - just played! :goodjob:

Why not settle on top of the iron? Judging from what I see there we will never get the hammers out of that hill anyway, by settling on top of it there will be no worker turns invested in the mining and roading to connect it to the other cities once we have Sailing and there are what look to be three forests for chopping to get a lighthouse up so we can pull the coastal commerce from 2 plots rather than just one, and then three cottages. The town will struggle to pay for itself, but there will also be little invested there.

Settling on the iron makes sense, but I'm wondering if we might be better off 1E of the copper for now (we're a long way from launching an invasion, where swordsmen would certainly be useful) -- that's a much better city site and will be much lower maintenance. Along that line of thought, how many turns from AH are we if we start to research it? Thinking the horses might be near the copper, and it would be efficient to pasture the pigs and then build a road to them while we're still on the hill.

Interesting idea Brother Bede, may be smarter than mine? ;)

How soon will we need Iron? I was thinking that we need two things right now, a production city and a bridge city. Settling the city 1 east of the Copper will get it started. We need culture in Beshbalik, as with the second expansion, the Iron will be in its super fat cross. If we don't want to wait for our allies to research Myst., it is a two turn research right now. Then Sailing to Writing?

If we think Iron is something we need immediately, then settling on it may be the better answer? :)

The copper site is more important in the short run, I think. And once the gold town gets some growth in it should be able to spit out a settler for the iron pretty quickly. I would not hesitate to park a warrior on that hill just to keep our boyos in the bearskins from settling in that neighborhood.

Why not settle on top of the iron? Judging from what I see there we will never get the hammers out of that hill anyway, by settling on top of it there will be no worker turns invested in the mining and roading to connect it to the other cities once we have Sailing and there are what look to be three forests for chopping to get a lighthouse up so we can pull the coastal commerce from 2 plots rather than just one, and then three cottages. The town will struggle to pay for itself, but there will also be little invested there.

Good idea! Iron will be connected immediately when we have Sailing. This also means that we can postpone settling this city until we are ready to start building swords.


Settling on the iron makes sense, but I'm wondering if we might be better off 1E of the copper for now (we're a long way from launching an invasion, where swordsmen would certainly be useful) -- that's a much better city site and will be much lower maintenance. Along that line of thought, how many turns from AH are we if we start to research it? Thinking the horses might be near the copper, and it would be efficient to pasture the pigs and then build a road to them while we're still on the hill.

Horses should be on a blank tile and as far as I remember all those tiles near the copper site are covered by Karakorums culture. Most probable place for horses is on the SW part of the island. I think AH is 4 turns away but I'm not sure it's a good idea to postpone settling any further. Self research of AH also means that we loose some beakers (around 50). My preference would be to settle copper city this turn and start mining the copper. AH will be done in 14 turns, Wheel in 15 turns and Mysticism in 10 turns. Maybe Sailing is the next tech we research ourselves? We shouldn't underestimate barb research - it's giving 22 bpt while our own research is only 15-16 bpt!!

I'd agree on sailing next, so we can start our galleys. How many towns are we thinking we need on the home island anyways? More than 4 and our economy will take a nosedive. (capital, gold city, border city, copper city and iron city?)

[edit] I prefer axes for early war over swords. It seems that if you send a stack of swords and axes, the swords get eaten up by fortified axes and you just waste them. I usually make axes with city raider promotions for my wars

I prefer axes for early war over swords. It seems that if you send a stack of swords and axes, the swords get eaten up by fortified axes and you just waste them. I usually make axes with city raider promotions for my wars

Swords are good when used properly. Obviously they can't attack on their own if the opposition has axes, but even then pillaging the enemy copper will often mean that only a few axes need to be dealt with before the swords can feast on the remaining archers.

"Horses should be on a blank tile and as far as I remember all those tiles near the copper site are covered by Karakorums culture."

I was not aware that a new resource could not appear where there was culture. Is that what you mean, Frederiksberg? I know I've had metals appear within my city limits.

Okay, I'm on board for getting the copper city up and running ASAP.

We're going to need cats, and that makes Writing, Alpha, Math, and Construction the high priority research path. I agree on Sailing first, though, and think we ought to consider an early excusion with a couple of Axes aboard to pillage copper. How does that look to the team? (And I agree, we will be much better off with both swords and axes.)

I was not aware that a new resource could not appear where there was culture. Is that what you mean, Frederiksberg? I know I've had metals appear within my city limits.

No, I only meant that if horses appear near the copper they will already be within our cultural borders and we would thus be able to hook them up under all circumstances (but they might - of course - be outside the fat cross of both Karakorum and the copper city).

We're going to need cats, and that makes Writing, Alpha, Math, and Construction the high priority research path. I agree on Sailing first, though, and think we ought to consider an early excusion with a couple of Axes aboard to pillage copper. How does that look to the team?

Sounds right to me. I would like to attack a civ on the big continent unless it looks easy to dispose of the Arabs. Arabia doesn't have many resources and we might be better of using them as a trading partner. As far as I recall the culture bridge to the continent will not enable us to trade with the continental civs - can anyone verify this? The barbs should start spawning swords now and it might be possible to use our barb allies in an attack on e.g. India.

"As far as I recall the culture bridge to the continent will not enable us to trade with the continental civs - can anyone verify this?"

Logically, if you can sail there in a galley, you can sea-trade with them. This seems an important piece of information. I hope someone knows the answer.

Frederiksberg, when you mention your hope of trading with the Arabs, are you referring to resources, tech, or both? I'm wondering what will be possible. Is this something you've explored in your practice games?

Good discussion. Time for a plan:

As Sailing is due in 16 turns and is our best next objective, I propose to play the 16 turns until Sailing is discovered.

Karakorum - Leave on Barracks for one turn, grows to size 4, and then change to a Settler for the bridge city.

Beshbalik - Complete Warrior and then another until Mysticism comes in and then change to an Obelisk for cultural expansion.

Plant the Copper City one tile east of the Copper. Begin building a Barracks, After the Copper is mined, chop the jungle hill, or two, and mine them. We can't build an Axe until we have The Wheel to road the Copper. This saves the chop on the hill for something we may need later?

Should AH or The Wheel come in, Pasture the Pigs and/or start roading between the main core and Beshbalik.

We may also want to begin thinking about changing Civics to Slavery, after the next Settler?

We should have changed to Slavery as soon as the first settler was produced and before he settled the second city. Switch before either of our two cities become even more productive.

Not clear to me what we gain from the Obelisk.

With The Wheel due soon and the need to research to Construction, we should at least consider producing another worker before a settler.

We should have changed to Slavery as soon as the first settler was produced and before he settled the second city. Switch before either of our two cities become even more productive.
OK, that's easy. Change in the first turn.

Not clear to me what we gain from the Obelisk.
If we can get some culture going, we may be able to claim the Iron without building a city on it. However, if the plan is to build the city, then Barracks and Archers in Beshbalik? Not sure what is useful to build there atm. Once we have Sailing, Galleys could be built there. A Granary in a city that isn't going to grow too big isn't really needed?

With The Wheel due soon and the need to research to Construction, we should at least consider producing another worker before a settler.
The Wheel is as many as 15 turns away at this point, perhaps a few less depending upon what happens. Worker first is fine as there is plenty of jungle to chop and, once Wheel is in, roads to build. :D

If we can get some culture going, we may be able to claim the Iron without building a city on it. However, if the plan is to build the city, then Barracks and Archers in Beshbalik? Not sure what is useful to build there atm. Once we have Sailing, Galleys could be built there. A Granary in a city that isn't going to grow too big isn't really needed?

I haven't worked it out, but I suspect that the culture from an obelisk would take so long to expand twice that we would get the iron too late. Have you estimated the number of turns?

The barracks is certainly appropriate, but I'm not keen on any archers. Hopefully, we'll be able to produce axeman fairly soon, and I wouldn't rule out a cheap granary -- we could well choose to whip even in Beshbalik.


The Wheel is as many as 15 turns away at this point, perhaps a few less depending upon what happens. Worker first is fine as there is plenty of jungle to chop and, once Wheel is in, roads to build. :D

Not sure a worker is best, just wanted it to be considered. Until we get the pigs pastured, a worker or settler is probably the best use of the capital.

Hopefully when the barb galleys start floating around you'll be able to see inside some cities to see what type of troops are there. CP mentioned cats, as I was reading the discussion I noticed that was missing at first.

If Arabia is resource poor, a small raiding party (warrior sacrifice) might gain some usefull info while better troops are being trained. Being alone they may have focused on some infrastructure and less units. Wait until you have enough units to go after a city, but you might be able to grab it with a small force.

I haven't worked it out, but I suspect that the culture from an obelisk would take so long to expand twice that we would get the iron too late. Have you estimated the number of turns?

I think you're right. I should check but I have GOTM 21 up atm so I can't. I think it is usually about 150 culture points for the second expansion, so with +1 cpt it would take a long while. A Library will shorten it significantly but it may be a while before we have one there. As I look at what is available to build, there isn't a lot to choose from that is worth it atm and we can't set it to beakers. Perhaps a Granary is the best use of the Hammers. Building too many units at this point seems a waste. I suppose we could build a Worker there to begin roading north? :hmm:

The barracks is certainly appropriate, but I'm not keen on any archers. Hopefully, we'll be able to produce axeman fairly soon, and I wouldn't rule out a cheap granary -- we could well choose to whip even in Beshbalik.
I'm not a big fan of Archers either, much rather build offensive units. But they all require Copper or Iron and we can't hook them up yet. A Granary in the Copper city is probably appropriate as well?

Not sure a worker is best, just wanted it to be considered. Until we get the pigs pastured, a worker or settler is probably the best use of the capital.
I was thinking more in terms of a Settler and then another Worker? However, I could be convinced either way as I don't really have a strong argument either way. I was only thinking of getting the bridge city built and growing as soon as possible to get its productivity up so it can build Galleys.

@Gator - It will be nice to get some Barb Galleys out and see what they find.

I am wondering if it might be more efficient to capture Iron if that is possible with Axes? :crazyeye:

Why not a workboat in Beshbalik for some more coastal exploration, either across the strait to the NE of Karakorum or around the horn to the Arab homeland? It would be nice to know if the coastal regions extend all the way across, and since we are war the workboat won't have any access issues.

Why not a workboat in Beshbalik for some more coastal exploration, either across the strait to the NE of Karakorum or around the horn to the Arab homeland? It would be nice to know if the coastal regions extend all the way across, and since we are war the workboat won't have any access issues.
I'm not sure why I didn't think of that? :crazyeye:
:lol: :lol: :lol:

Why not a workboat in Beshbalik for some more coastal exploration, either across the strait to the NE of Karakorum or around the horn to the Arab homeland? It would be nice to know if the coastal regions extend all the way across, and since we are war the workboat won't have any access issues.

Good idea, as long as the barbs show no research on Sailing. We will be able to put the workboat to work in time, so wouldn't want to have it wasted.

"I was thinking more in terms of a Settler and then another Worker? However, I could be convinced either way as I don't really have a strong argument either way. I was only thinking of getting the bridge city built and growing as soon as possible to get its productivity up so it can build Galleys."

We are operating with very little gold income, and, to reach our research goals (those that the barbs will not help us with) in a timely manner, we must be judiious about what we spend. Unit support and city nmaintenance have got to be limited, so we don't want to create either much sooner than they are needed. What do you estimate the maintenace cost of a bridge city would be, and how quickly will it pay for itself? Is it feasible to try to simultaneously lay the groundwork for attacking two different locations, given our limited resources?

Logically, if you can sail there in a galley, you can sea-trade with them. This seems an important piece of information. I hope someone knows the answer.

I have no experience to confirm or deny this, but it brings to mind a situation in SGOTM1 we had as Memphis Blues. We were Hathepsut, and were at war with Capac. A one stage, we saw Incan culture accross a gap just like this, and when Incan culture expanded, Capac sent a galley accross to annoy us. However we could not send a galley to Capac's area because somehow it was his culture on the ocean tile not ours, and we didn't have culture touching his. We couldn't trade with Capac anyhow since we were at war with him, so this doesn't directly answer the question. I remember it though because the situation seemed a bit strange to me because he could move freely accross the gap, but we could not.

The application to this game is that when we establish that bridge city, it could be that we will be able to travel the gap, but our enemies will not.

Good discussion. Time for a plan:


I've been a bit out of it the last couple of days and haven't had time to think much about the game. Don't let me hold you up. If I haven't looked at it, I don't have any complaints or alternative suggestions, so just go for it.

WW is starting to be a problem - we have 2 angry faces from WW in Karakorum and 1 in Beshbalik meaning that none of these cities can grow above size 3 without having angry citizens. None of the other civs seem to be interested in peace unless we give them Beshbalik - perhaps because we have little power? Building our army might help but unfotunately we cant start this before Wheel is researched.

Building a workboat in Beshbalik is probably the best we can do right now. Granaries require Pottery which we dont have and the Obelisk won't give us 2nd culture expansion fast enough (and Mysticism is 10 turns away). Karakorum should probably build a worker or a Settler when it has finished Barracks - I will try and look at the test game this evening in order to estimate the maintenance cost of settling the bridge city.

Good idea, as long as the barbs show no research on Sailing. We will be able to put the workboat to work in time, so wouldn't want to have it wasted.
Yes, I think this is a good deal. After the Warrior, Beshbalik to Work Boat.

We are operating with very little gold income, and, to reach our research goals (those that the barbs will not help us with) in a timely manner, we must be judiious about what we spend. Unit support and city nmaintenance have got to be limited, so we don't want to create either much sooner than they are needed. What do you estimate the maintenace cost of a bridge city would be, and how quickly will it pay for itself? Is it feasible to try to simultaneously lay the groundwork for attacking two different locations, given our limited resources?
Just had a look at our finances and you're right. Beshbalik's maintenance is 3 GPT and it about 10 tiles from Karakorum. The Bridge City will be 11 tiles, so the means another 3 or 4 GPT for it. Our Copper City will also add to this and cause our research to fall off, not good. How do we delay these costs, build a Settler and move him to the bridge location but not settle yet?

Given this, Worker first is a very good argument, at this time, imho.

WW is starting to be a problem - we have 2 angry faces from WW in Karakorum and 1 in Beshbalik meaning that none of these cities can grow above size 3 without having angry citizens. None of the other civs seem to be interested in peace unless we give them Beshbalik - perhaps because we have little power? Building our army might help but unfotunately we can't start this before Wheel is researched.
I think that they may sign Cease Fire agreements. That would at least stop the Barbs from entering their territory and allow some of the War Weariness to wear off a bit.

Building a workboat in Beshbalik is probably the best we can do right now. Granaries require Pottery which we dont have and the Obelisk won't give us 2nd culture expansion fast enough (and Mysticism is 10 turns away). Karakorum should probably build a worker or a Settler when it has finished Barracks - I will try and look at the test game this evening in order to estimate the maintenance cost of settling the bridge city.
If you get a chance, this would be most welcome as I haven't played that save yet. I fear settling that city, and the copper, will drop our research rate below 50%, not good as we try to get to Construction.

I think that they may sign Cease Fire agreements. That would at least stop the Barbs from entering their territory and allow some of the War Weariness to wear off a bit.

Right now we have the accumulated WW from 6 wars meaning that we may be fine if we can get cease fire with a handful of civs. If we plan to attack India or Arabia it might be better to avoid cease fire with them in order for our barb friends to do maximum damage there before our pillaging party arrives.

Thinking a bit ahead I'm wondering if war against Arabia first is the better - maybe even necessarry choice. The advantage is that Arabia is close allowing for faster attack and the drawback is that the Arabs dont have many resources we don't have and their island is also somewhat resource poor. Establishing a foothold on the big continent sounds much more appealing but maybe it's too ambitious? Can we build a strong core using some of the arab cities or should we aim to move to the continent ASAP?

Getting the gold connected will help with WW, but this is obviously an ongoing and growing problem.

Do I recall that Stonehenge has been built? If so, where? In addtion to an iron city, the Stonehenge city would also be a possible invasion prize.

Sure would like to know how cultural borders and trading works, but I'm happy for leif to proceed as he outlined above.

"Establishing a foothold on the big continent sounds much more appealing but maybe it's too ambitious? Can we build a strong core using some of the arab cities or should we aim to move to the continent ASAP?"

I'm puzzling over this issue as well, but I think leif can get us to AH without having to resove it, and we should have a bit more information by then.

Arab cities may not have resources but how do they look for hammer production which will aid gaining the foothold on the bigger continent?

Right now we have the accumulated WW from 6 wars meaning that we may be fine if we can get cease fire with a handful of civs. If we plan to attack India or Arabia it might be better to avoid cease fire with them in order for our barb friends to do maximum damage there before our pillaging party arrives.
With a cease fire, we can redeclare at any time. With a Barb city on the big continent, I would say that we have a foothold there. I find myself wondering what will happen if we sign a cease fire with all the civs but one on the big continent, would the Barbs concentrate their troops on the one civ? We could also cycle cease fires so that the Barbs pillage for, say 10 turns, and then back to peace for 15 or so, keep their workers busy. :mischief:

The other thing about cease fires with at least some of the civs is that the tech pace should pick up a bit as the Barb tech rate is determined by what the other civs discover? :hmm:

Thinking a bit ahead I'm wondering if war against Arabia first is the better - maybe even necessary choice. The advantage is that Arabia is close allowing for faster attack and the drawback is that the Arabs dont have many resources we don't have and their island is also somewhat resource poor. Establishing a foothold on the big continent sounds much more appealing but maybe it's too ambitious? Can we build a strong core using some of the arab cities or should we aim to move to the continent ASAP?


Arab cities may not have resources but how do they look for hammer production which will aid gaining the foothold on the bigger continent?
Looking at Arabia, it is pretty unappealing. Their capital would be a mediocre city; fair production and some commerce, but nothing to get excited about, imho. :scan:

Do I recall that Stonehenge has been built? If so, where? In addtion to an iron city, the Stonehenge city would also be a possible invasion prize.
The Greek built Stonehenge. Looking at the map, I'd love to find a coastal path to their island from our eastern shore, I think our first priority once a Work Boat is up and swimming.

I'm puzzling over this issue as well, but I think leif can get us to AH without having to resolve it, and we should have a bit more information by then.
I agree. We do have the Barb city, Libyan, just north of Indian territory. Seems like it might be a nice place to offload troops and prepare for an invasion of India? Unless we can find a way to Greece! :D

Played with the test game.

Settling the bridge city will apparently increase maintenance expenses by 4 gpt. Bridge City itself costs 3 gpt and having a fourth city increased Karakorums maintenance by 1 gpt. These numbers are only valid for a certain population since maintenance grows with growing population. Bridge city will make only 2 gpt initially when it's working only the rice tile so the total cost of having it is 2 gpt. This does not seem prohibitive. So Settler first looks feasible to me.

Playing the test game made me realize that one important task in leif's turn set is to make sure that the workers are properly placed when Wheel is discovered 15 turns from now. What we badly need is to get gold and copper hooked - gold because we need the happiness and copper because we want to be able to start building axes thus solving our problem of what to build in Beshbalik (and Turfan). Obviously we would want to mine the copper and maybe one of the grassland hills if time allows and after that think about how many turns it will take to bring one worker back to hook the gold and two workers to build a road from the copper to the river.

Remember to check how the city governor assign tiles after growth. I think we are better off working improved tiles with emphasis on food and gold rather than hammers right now.

This does not seem prohibitive. So Settler first looks feasible to me.
:thanx: After growth, Karakorum to Settler. :thumbsup:

Playing the test game made me realize that one important task in leif's turn set is to make sure that the workers are properly placed when Wheel is discovered 15 turns from now.
I assume you mean that we need to be sure a Worker is in the Beshbalik area, in the Copper city area and near Karakorum to road. Once the Copper is connected to Karakorum, it will also be in Beshbalik when Sailing finishes.

Remember to check how the city governor assign tiles after growth. I think we are better off working improved tiles with emphasis on food and gold rather than hammers right now.
OK! :)

good luck!

Thanks. I'm planning to play this tomorrow evening, about 24 hours from now to give time for any last minute planning. :deal:

"Playing the test game made me realize that one important task in leif's turn set is to make sure that the workers are properly placed when Wheel is discovered 15 turns from now. What we badly need is to get gold and copper hooked - gold because we need the happiness and copper because we want to be able to start building axes thus solving our problem of what to build in Beshbalik (and Turfan). Obviously we would want to mine the copper and maybe one of the grassland hills if time allows and after that think about how many turns it will take to bring one worker back to hook the gold and two workers to build a road from the copper to the river."

Doesn't all this argue for a worker first? My rule of thumb in the early game is one more worker than cities, and we're not there. Having our workers working seperately at different locations will mean everything takes many turns to accomplish. Generally, you are better off having two workers operating as a team and getting tasks done in succession (rather than simultaneously), so you can utilizer their first improvement immediately.

Doesn't all this argue for a worker first? My rule of thumb in the early game is one more worker than cities, and we're not there. Having our workers working seperately at different locations will mean everything takes many turns to accomplish. Generally, you are better off having two workers operating as a team and getting tasks done in succession (rather than simultaneously), so you can utilizer their first improvement immediately.
I spent some time looking at the game this morning. I don't know what target date we think we need is for timing our attack. Here is the situation as I see it now:
We currently have 3 Workers, which will be one worker per city when the Copper City get founded.
We will lose one-turn of production on the revolt to Slavery and one turn waiting for Karakorum to grow to size 3. A settler requires about 17 turns to produce. It will need about 9 or 10 turns to get to the city site as it is mostly jungle and no roads.
Mysticism looks to be about 10 turns away, but could come sooner.
There are no forests to chop where the bridge city is going, so no "quick hammers".
At one-hammer per turn, the Obelisk will require 45 turns to build, and then we wait another 15 turns for the cultural expansion.
Adding it all up, it seems to me to be around 85 to 90 turns before we can use the culture bridge to get across the channel.
I will admit that an additional Worker would speed this process as we could chop more jungle and irrigate the Rice and mine a hill faster. Then we need to add into this the time delay on the settler for te worker to finish?
We have so many Worker requirements, even more once The Wheel is in.

I am still thinking Settler first and then trying to speed things up by using the Copper City to produce workers as well, once it gets to size 3? Especially if we do not have everything connected yet?

"Adding it all up, it seems to me to be around 85 to 90 turns before we can use the culture bridge to get across the channel."

That's discouraging, but certainly argues for getting the settler out ASAP. (It also might argue for revisiting going in another direction, but I''ll assume you've already been there.)

What about a worker out of Beshbalik?

Doesn't all this argue for a worker first? My rule of thumb in the early game is one more worker than cities, and we're not there. Having our workers working seperately at different locations will mean everything takes many turns to accomplish. Generally, you are better off having two workers operating as a team and getting tasks done in succession (rather than simultaneously), so you can utilizer their first improvement immediately.

Maybe. We could also decide to make the worker in Beshbalik instead of the work boat. Beshbalik can anyway not grow above size 3 with the WW we have.

There are no forests to chop where the bridge city is going, so no "quick hammers". At one-hammer per turn, the Obelisk will require 45 turns to build

If we send workers to the bridge city site ahead of the settler they should be able to:

1) Build a road out there to speed up the settler movement.
2) Chop the jungle covering the rice and one of the grassland hills

When the city is founded it will then be able to work the rice quite fast and maybe grow in 10 turns or so at which point it could start working a grassland hill for a total of 4 hpt i.e. build time of the obelisk is significantly reduced.

Actually all these worker tasks we have ahead makes me think that the correct strategy is to build settler first in Karakorum and a worker instead of work boat in Beshbalik. Since we don't intend to settle the clam city site soon the work boat is not critical and can be postponed. When Sailing is researched barb galleys will do some of the scouting we are looking for anyway.

EDIT: Of course we should let the current builds finalize in Karakorum and Beshbalik - that will also allow both cities to grow to size 3. One of the workers is currently farming plains near Karakorum. Don't hesitate to interrupt this - he can probably do better helping with improving the Copper City.

"If we send workers to the bridge city site ahead of the settler they should be able to:

1) Build a road out there to speed up the settler movement.
2) Chop the jungle covering the rice and one of the grassland hills

When the city is founded it will then be able to work the rice quite fast and maybe grow in 10 turns or so at which point it could start working a grassland hill for a total of 4 hpt i.e. build time of the obelisk is significantly reduced.

Actually all these worker tasks we have ahead makes me think that the correct strategy is to build settler first in Karakorum and a worker instead of work boat in Beshbalik. Since we don't intend to settle the clam city site soon the work boat is not critical and can be postponed. When Sailing is researched barb galleys will do some of the scouting we are looking for anyway."

This follows my line of thinking and would get my vote for the best general plan of action.

Research Status:

Priesthood 3/175 1/turn
Masonry 72/234 4/turn
Wheel 132/175 3/turn
Mysticism 115/145 3/turn
AH 225/292 5/turn
Pottery 42/234 2/turn
Meditation 6/234 2/turn
Polytheism 20/292 2/turn
Thanks for the discussion. I put up this summary by Frederiksberg from his turn log. By the end of this turn set, we should see or be close to seeing The Wheel, Myst. and Animal Husbandry. As they will probably come towards the end of the turn set, here is what I think I should do.

Revolt to Slavery and let Karakorum grow to size 3, one-turn away, then change production to a Settler.
Send two workers to the future site of the bridge city and chop the Rice and a Grass Hill tile. If The Wheel isn't completed, then perhaps chop another Grass Hill tile.
Found Copper City and send one Worker there to mine the Copper and chop a Jungle Hill tile as time permits. Copper City citizens will work the irrigated grass tiles until we hit size 3. It will start a Barracks.
Beshbalik will complete its Warrior, and then start a Worker.
The next Warrior out of Beshbalik should go and sit on the Iron tile, keeping pesky Barbs from building a city there!
Maintain research on Sailing. :thumbsup:
The only problem I see here is that workers will be out of place at the end of the set. There will be two workers over near the bridge city, probably trying to build a road back to Karakorum, one Worker near the Copper and Karakorum and, hopefully, a Worker recently built in Beshbalik. Actually, that could work out OK. :hmm:

No Work Boat... :cry: :joke:
:lol: :lol: :lol:

How does this sound?

Sounds good to me.

:thumbsup:

Beware of the city governors :twitch:

The man has a plan!

Beware of the city governors :twitch:
Life is tough as an emperor when your governors will not listen to you, especially when there are only two, or three, of them! :eek: :backstab:

Guess I'll need to :assimilate: or they'll face :trouble: :splat:

And if all else fails, then some :cowboy: diplomacy!! ;)

EDIT - OK, I'm on the job! :D

OK, turns completed. Short version is that we have Horses 1-tile south of Karakorum. We have The Wheel, Animal Husbandry, Mysticism and Sailing.

<<The Save>> (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm5/Xteam_SG005_BC0895_01.Civ4SavedGame)

The turn log:
Turn 93 – 1210 BC
Settle Turfan 1-tile east of the Copper. Start a Barracks.
Send Worker near Turfan for the Bridge City, 7-turn travel time.
Stop the Worker near Karakorum from irrigating to send to the Bridge City next turn.
Send Worker from near Beshbalik towards Turfan’s Copper, a 5-turn journey.
Revolt to Slavery civic, 1-turn revolution.

Visit with Toku and he will not sign a Cease Fire agreement, wants Beshbalik for peace.
Visit Cyrus, same deal?
Visit the Chinese, same deal?
Same with Isabella?
Oh well, let’s move ahead.

IBT
3-Barb Archers and a Warrior headed for Bombay!

Turn 94 – 1180 BC
Send the second Worker headed for the Bridge City site, an 8-turn journey.

IBT
A Barb Sword shows near Spain.
A Barb Axe near Tokyo, which has only one Archer defending.

Turn 95 – 1150 BC
Karakorum grows to size 3, change production to a Settler, due in 17 turns.

IBT
See more Swords on the map, there are at least 3 units.
The Barb Axe lost at Tokyo.

Turn 96 – 1120 BC
No one wants a Cease Fire?

IBT
Barbs seem to have lost all their battles with the other civs.

Turn 97 – 1090 BC
Barb research is increasing a bit:
The Wheel 146/175 +5
Mysticism 127/145 +3
AH 245/292 +5
Pottery 50/234 +2
Masonry 88/234 +4
Meditation 14/234 +2
Polytheism 28/282 +2
Priesthood 15/125 +3
A total of 26 beakers per turn, not bad

IBT
There are Barb Swords and Axes running all over the place.
Beshbalik completes a Warrior and start a Worker. It also grew to size three and now has one unhappy citizen.

Turn 98 – 1060 BC
Move Warrior from Beshbalik towards Iron Hill.
Worker starts mining Copper.

IBT
Barbs picked off a Persian Archer which may have had a Settler under it, but I’m not sure.

Turn 99 – 1030 BC
First Worker arrives at the Rice tile and begins chopping jungle.
We have a bit of a problem. War Weariness has jumped again and we have two unhappy citizens in Beshbalik, so we’ve lost our Gold income.
Sailing has gone from 8 turns to 13 turns.
Can’t decide if it is better to starve one citizen away or keep them both. Decide to starve one away by working the Gold Mine and see if I can get them both back to work?

IBT
Most Powerful Civ?

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k27/civgeek/CIVSGOTM05/985BC_Most_Powerful.jpg

Turn 100 – 1000 BC
Second Worker starts chopping jungle near Bridge City site.
Starving Beshbalik worked, both citizens back to work.

IBT

Turn 101 – 985 BC
:sleep:

IBT
The Barbs capture and raise Edo of Japan.

Turn 102 – 970 BC
We should get The Wheel and Mysticism next turn.

IBT
The Barbs discover and hand us Mysticism and The Wheel.

Turn 103 – 955 BC
These discoveries jump us right into first place!
Cyrus signs a Cease Fire agreement.
Toku will not sign.
China will not sign.
Izzie will not sign?

IBT
Nanjing is captured by the Barbs and razed! China should have signed!

Turn 104 – 940 BC
Worker roads the Copper.
Wish I had a Worker in Beshbalik now!

IBT
Confucianism founded in Shanghai because China built The Oracle.

Turn 105 – 925 BC
Worker has completed the jungle chop on the rice tile.
Turfan grows to size 2, MM for food as planned. The next pop growth will cause unhappiness in the city, perhaps we can pop rush the Rax?

IBT

Turn 106 – 910 BC
Worker finishes jungle chop on Grass Hill in Bridge City site.

IBT
We discover Sailing. Set research to Writing, due in 15 turns.
We have connected Beshbalik with Karakorum.
Barbs hand us Animal Husbandry.

Turn 107 – 895 BC
Horses are located on the Plains tile 1-south of Karakorum.

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k27/civgeek/CIVSGOTM05/895BC_Horses_Karakorum.jpg

Change research to 90 percent, Writing due in 14 turns.
The Barracks is starting to decay as it was at 6 turns to complete and now is at 7.
Our Bridge City site.

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k27/civgeek/CIVSGOTM05/895BC_Bridge_City.jpg

Save the game without moving any units.

Research:
We have The Wheel, Mysticism and Animal Husbandry.
Pottery - 80/234 at +4
Masonry – 152/234 at +7
Polytheism – 48/292 at +2
Meditation – 34/234 at +2
Priesthood - 45/175 at +3

I wonder what happens when Priesthood gets discovered without its pre-requisites?

After Action Report
The Japanese and Chinese each lost a city to Barbs, razed. There are a Barb Archer, Axe and wounded Sword outside of Tokyo, defended by one Archer.

We signed a Cease Fire with Cyrus and we have one from earlier with Alexander. The others do not seem to want to sign?

I think we need to be careful about how much we let our cities grow. At size three, they will become unhappy due to War Weariness. This leaves only one pop point to rush with and that will create another unhappy citizen. Karakorum will be the only exception to this.

Again, no units have been moved as we have some discussing to do!

Turn 93, 1210 BC: Turfan has been founded.
Turn 93, 1210 BC: The revolution has begun!!!
Turn 93, 1210 BC: X-TeamSGOTM5 adopts Slavery!
Turn 93, 1210 BC: The anarchy is over! Your government is re-established.

Turn 101, 985 BC: Edo has been captured by the Barbarian State!!!
Turn 101, 985 BC: Edo has been razed by the Barbarian State!!!

Turn 102, 970 BC: Cyrus converts to Buddhism!
Turn 102, 970 BC: You have discovered Mysticism!
Turn 102, 970 BC: You have discovered The Wheel!

Turn 103, 955 BC: You have made peace with Cyrus!
Turn 103, 955 BC: Nanjing has been captured by the Barbarian State!!!
Turn 103, 955 BC: Nanjing has been razed by the Barbarian State!!!

Turn 104, 940 BC: Confucianism has been founded in Shanghai!
Turn 104, 940 BC: Qin Shi Huang has completed The Oracle!

Turn 105, 925 BC: Qin Shi Huang converts to Confucianism!

Turn 106, 910 BC: You have discovered Sailing!
Turn 106, 910 BC: You have discovered Animal Husbandry!
Turn 106, 910 BC: You have discovered a source of Horse near Karakorum!

Roster:
Cactus Pete - UP
Bede - On Deck
Mad Professor
rrau
Frederiksberg
Leif - just played... ;)

Well that's right dandy! Guess we have to learn how to live with pop3 cities for a while. Looks like the whip will have only marginal utility for us under those circumstances.

So how do we get more happy into the villages? One of the problems we have is that when the boyos in the breastplate armor raze a city our people get unhappy.

Leif - could you tell how many units the barbs attacked the cities with?

With the damage they are causing I'd try to get into that action ASAP.

Unfortunately, it sounds like it will be many turns before the bridge city is done.:( :sad:

Leif - could you tell how many units the barbs attacked the cities with?

With the damage they are causing I'd try to get into that action ASAP.
In some cases there were three units near the city, especially on the large island.

In the case of Nanjing, it was one Axe versus one Archer.

I tried nearly every turn to get a Cease Fire deal but they were pretty stubborn about wanting something for it, especially Beshbalik. I'm not sure this will be solved until we can give them a tech. :rolleyes:

EDIT - @rrau - I tink we have a pretty good chance of getting the Bridge City up and running in some good time. Two-tiles are now chopped and can easily be improved.

As Bede said, we need to get some Happy into the cities, especially the Gold roaded.

Nice going lief.

Good to see the barbs doing some damage.

We need happies. That WW bites bad, and the unwillingness of most civs to sign peace is frustrating. Calendar is kinda a long way off at the current rate (for improving dye) but we have to do what we can to get us what happies we can get.

Nice set leif. Very nice to see the barbs finally doing some real damage and with 9 barb axes and 6 swords we haven't seen it all yet :trouble:. Downside is the increased WW that has delayed the worker build in Beshbalik - the worker who was supposed to road the gold! It looks like the AI is ignoring the military power of the barbs since they won't agree to a cease fire so maybe our best way forward is to build a few axes to increase our own power.

Since we can only have size 2 cities right now I suggest that Turfan builds worker and starts working the copper tile. I wonder if whipping the worker in Beshbalik is an option, but I don't like the prospect of having to wait 9 turns for regrowth since it means loosing the gold income. Seen in retrospect whipping the worker instead of starving the city may have been the best choice...

We seem to be in good shape when it comes to getting the Bridge City up and running fast - all workers are ready to start roading towards Karakorum :goodjob:.

Since we can only have size 2 cities right now I suggest that Turfan builds worker and starts working the copper tile. I wonder if whipping the worker in Beshbalik is an option, but I don't like the prospect of having to wait 9 turns for regrowth since it means loosing the gold income. Seen in retrospect whipping the worker instead of starving the city may have been the best choice...
I checked on whipping the Worker in Beshbalik but it said that we needed 2 pop and only had one available. Once the Gold Mine is hooked up and we can grow the non-capital cities to size 4, then pop-rushing will be a more effective option.

I agree that we should build some Axes and see if that helps. It is interesting that Cyrus signed immediately after the Barbs discovered Myst. and The Wheel. We popped up into first place in score when that happened even though Cyrus was ahead of us in power.

As I think of it, I probably should have played one more turn to see what Barb Galleys showed and what they revealed as that might have helped in our discussions. I'm really hoping for a route to Greece, but not counting on it. :mischief:

EDIT - I think our focus in the next set will be to get our house in order, and prep for war with someone?
:D :hammer: :mischief:

As I think of it, I probably should have played one more turn to see what Barb Galleys showed and what they revealed as that might have helped in our discussions. I'm really hoping for a route to Greece, but not counting on it. :mischief:

I just downloaded the save and had a look around. A barb galley has appeared off the coast of that island to the SE of our island, and we can't get there from our island with definite ocean in the middle. However, we can certainly get to the Greek island from the main continent...

Edit: Looks like Alex can get to this island SE of ours though - I can see greek culture there nearby.

I notice Cyrus will allow open borders now that he's up to cautious with us. The only help this would be at this stage would be to slowly improve relations with him if we wanted to do that since we could get trade routes with him yet...?

Looking around, I suspect we're missing quite a few techs some other civs have got. That will change ;)

I just downloaded the save and had a look around. A barb galley has appeared off the coast of that island to the SE of our island, and we can't get there from our island with definite ocean in the middle. However, we can certainly get to the Greek island from the main continent...

Edit: Looks like Alex can get to this island SE of ours though - I can see greek culture there nearby.
Yes, and I sort of hate to bring this up after all the work on the western bridge city site. But, we can also build a bridge city 1-tile south of the Iron and there is a forest we can chop to hasten the Obelisk. The route is also shorter and it leads to Greece and Stonehenge! And we get Iron out of the deal as well! :D

Not sure how I missed that. Good catch MP!! :goodjob:
I think we should sign Open Borders with Cyrus. :thumbsup:

I checked on whipping the Worker in Beshbalik but it said that we needed 2 pop and only had one available. Once the Gold Mine is hooked up and we can grow the non-capital cities to size 4, then pop-rushing will be a more effective option.


Oh - you needed two pop to rush! In that case you probably had no alternative to letting the city starve - waiting for the worker to be rushable with one pop would probably take too long....

Yes, and I sort of hate to bring this up after all the work on the western bridge city site. But, we can also build a bridge city 1-tile south of the Iron and there is a forest we can chop to hasten the Obelisk. The route is also shorter and it leads to Greece and Stonehenge! And we get Iron out of the deal as well!


This is very interesting news! Since we have many worker turns invested in the bridge city we might still consider settling this city. A city south of the iron is indeed badly placed and should probably be settled at the latest possible moment.

I think we should sign Open Borders with Cyrus.

Yes, let's try to improve relations with him.

I see I am a bit tardy. I will not have time to look at the save thoroughly until tomorrow mid-day. Please continue your discussions and give me your counsel. Tomorow, I will read and post a tentative plan of action, then allow 24 hours for discussion (which I should be able to participate in fully) before beginning to play.

Since I'm going to be 24 hours, perhaps leif should play another turn or two..

This is very interesting news! Since we have many worker turns invested in the bridge city we might still consider settling this city. A city south of the iron is indeed badly placed and should probably be settled at the latest possible moment.
As the next Settler is nearly ready to pop, I think we need to decide who we want to be our first victim. :mischief: If it is Greece in order to get Stonehenge, then I think we need to build the Iron City for a bridge. If India is what we're after, then we should go west.

Unfortunately, our Barb friends have not seen fit to visit Alex, so I don't know what Greece looks like. His power rating is just a bit higher than ours but I don't know where he is research wise nor what units or resources he has?

I see I am a bit tardy. I will not have time to look at the save thoroughly until tomorrow mid-day. Please continue your discussions and give me your counsel. Tomorow, I will read and post a tentative plan of action, then allow 24 hours for discussion (which I should be able to participate in fully) before beginning to play.

Since I'm going to be 24 hours, perhaps leif should play another turn or two..
No problem CP. Did you want some more info from Barb Galleys? If so, I can play a few quick turns if you need me to. I set research for Writing which I think is next to get us to Construction? Otherwise, I certainly do not mind waiting a day or so. I think there is much to consider. Perhaps waiting is best?

With the discovery of Horses near our capital, I am wondering if we should Pasture that tile first and see how quickly we can pump out a few Galleys while working on Axes out of Turfan. I don't think we are that many turns from going to Greece if we wish, perhaps 25 to 30?

This also has the advantage of keeping our Workers together on the east coast for now, less travel time between jobs... ;)

Had another look at the save. As far as I can see there is no clear evidence that we can reach Greece from the uninhabited island to the SE. Greek cultural borders from Athens do extend to tiles connecting with coast tiles of that island but it's not clear if these fog covered tiles inside Greek borders are ocean or coast.

Thus I suggest we proceed with our plans of settling the western bridge city. If we get confirmation that Greece is indeed reachable the mouse holder can pause for discussion.

Leif, if you are going to play a few more turns how about changing the build in Turfan to worker and start working the copper tile. The city can't be allowed to grow anyway and we have plenty of chores for the workers. I would suggest that the workers at the bridge city site start building a road towards Karakorum. The other workers can pasture the horses as you suggested.

Writing seems like a good choice for next tech.

Played 5 more turns, until Settler popped in Karakorum.
The Barbs captured and kept Tokyo and founded Mauryan. They also have a Worker working in Libyan. They also captured and razed Baghdad.
I think Fred is right, no access to Greece to the east!

<<<The Save>>> (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm5/Xteam_SG005_BC0820_01.Civ4SavedGame)

Turn Log:
Turn 107 - 895BC
As Fred suggested, changed production in Turfan to Worker and MM citizen from farm to copper mine.
Begin road to Karakorum and the Horses.
Start road from Bridge City site towards Karakorum.
Sign an Open Borders agreement with Cyrus. No one else will sign for Cease Fire or Peace.

IBT
Barbs capture Tokyo and keep it!
Izzy moves an Archer to attack Libyan.

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k27/civgeek/CIVSGOTM05/865BC_Tokyo.jpg

Turn 108 - 880 BC
Workers road.

IBT
ZZZzzz

Turn 109 - 865 BC
Worker actions.

IBT
More Galleys are moving about.

Turn 110 - 850 BC
Worker actions.

IBT
Baghdad is captured and razed by the Barbs.

Turn 111 - 835 BC
Workers continue to road.

IBT
Barbs produce a Worker that moves to a flood plain.
Barbs settle Mauryan.
Settler completes in Karakorum.

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k27/civgeek/CIVSGOTM05/820BC_Mauryan.jpg

Turn 112 - 820 AD
No units moved.

After Action Report.
Perhaps we should just let the Barbs finish this for us? :lol: :lol: :lol:
Research:
Pottery - 100/234 at +4 per turn.
Masonry - 187/234 at +7 per turn.
Polytheism - 58/292 at +2 per turn.
Meditation - 44/234 at +2 per turn.
Priesthood - 60/175 at +3 per turn.

I do not think there is a passage to the east to Greece. Fred is correct, need to head west to found the Bridge City.

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k27/civgeek/CIVSGOTM05/820BC_Greek_Access.jpg

Here is your Session Turn Log from 895 BC to 820 BC:

Turn 107, 895 BC: Logging Game to File: autolog.txt
Turn 107, 895 BC: Isabella adopts Slavery!
Turn 107, 895 BC: Tokyo has been captured by the Barbarian State!!!

Turn 110, 850 BC: Baghdad has been captured by the Barbarian State!!!
Turn 110, 850 BC: Baghdad has been razed by the Barbarian State!!!

Turn 111, 835 BC: You have trained a Settler in Karakorum. Work has now begun on a Barracks.

I do not think there is a passage to the east to Greece. Fred is correct, need to head west to found the Bridge City.

I wish the barb galley had headed down there to uncover the fog so that we could know for sure if there is ocean or coast. As it is now I don't like to gamble that we can cross over with galleys and founding the western bridge city seems to be the safe choice.

Research:
Pottery - 100/234 at +4 per turn.
Masonry - 187/234 at +7 per turn.
Polytheism - 58/292 at +2 per turn.
Meditation - 44/234 at +2 per turn.
Priesthood - 60/175 at +3 per turn.

Pottery - done in 9 turns (or less)
Masonry - done in 7 turns
Polytheism - done in 117 turns
Meditation - done in 95 turns
Priesthood - done in 39 turns

Pottery coming in 9 turns is very nice now that we have many workers we can put to work building cottages. We might cottage some of the dye tiles - we dont need that much dye. We also get the option of building cheap granaries. That will be more relevant when we get more happiness in our cities.

Perhaps we should just let the Barbs finish this for us?

That would be nice :D. Raging barbs with early axes and swords do cause considerable damage even to monarch AI. If only we could get into that action... (as Gator said).

I wish the barb galley had headed down there to uncover the fog so that we could know for sure if there is ocean or coast. As it is now I don't like to gamble that we can cross over with galleys and founding the western bridge city seems to be the safe choice.
The way these Barb Galleys sail drives one mad. It took all five turns to get to were he is now, two tiles from where he started! :rolleyes:
I wanted to leave a treasure trail or tell him a monastery awaited him for pillage if he'd head for Greece... :mischief:
He may yet find a way there, but I agree that the safe bet is the western city site. Getting some units to the battle our allies are fighting could mean some real fun!
We may need to settle the city near te Iron anyway as we may soon need some Swords! ;)



Pottery 100/234 at +4 per turn
Pottery - done in 9 turns (or less)

Pottery coming in 9 turns is very nice now that we have many workers we can put to work building cottages.
Think we may have recalculate this one. We need 134 beakers at +4 per turn. Looks a bit like 35 turns to Pottery to me? :confused:
I think we could detour to it for only a couple of turns to be able to build cottages after Writing?

That would be nice :D. Raging barbs with early axes and swords do cause considerable damage even to monarch AI. If only we could get into that action... (as Gator said).
I was quite pleasantly surprised to see the damage they are doing! :goodjob:
If we can survive the War Weariness, they could prove to be good allies. :cool:

Think we may have recalculate this one. We need 134 beakers at +4 per turn. Looks a bit like 35 turns to Pottery to me?
I think we could detour to it for only a couple of turns to be able to build cottages after Writing?

Oh - 234 looked like 134 on this old screen of mine. You're (almost :lol:) right - it is 25 turns more for a total of 34 turns. We could detour to Pottery but I suggest we wait until we really need to build those cottages - those 4 beakers per turn are very, very nice. We should be getting barb beakers for Writing also since Cyrus must have it in order to offer open borders. Could be interesting to verify this. The easy way would be to run 0% Science for a single turn - we can always catch up by running 100% research later. Actually it's optimal to always have science at either 100% or 0% because rounding is always downwards i.e. you can only loose beakers/gold by unfortunate rounding effects.

We may need to settle the city near te Iron anyway as we may soon need some Swords!

Yes, but we might prefer to settle on top of the iron as Bede suggested thus saving the grassland forest, saving worker turns improving the iron and getting 2 hammers from the city tile.

You're (almost :lol:) right - it is 25 turns more for a total of 34 turns. /snip/ ;)

Actually it's optimal to always have science at either 100% or 0% because rounding is always downwards i.e. you can only loose beakers/gold by unfortunate rounding effects.
Must have been half asleep! :sleep:

Is it better to run 0% research for 3 turns and then 100% until the cash runs dry and then recycle again? I'd probably forget to change it back to 100% for a few turns and end up with Swords versus Maces... :mischief:

Yes, but we might prefer to settle on top of the iron as Bede suggested thus saving the grassland forest, saving worker turns improving the iron and getting 2 hammers from the city tile.
I think we'll need to make this decision soon. Hopefully, that Galley Captain will get his stuff together and sail where we need him to go? Then we will know what decision to make... :)

I usually like to send 3 or 4 Swords (CR1) for every Axe (+50% versus Melee promotion). The Axes only need to defend the Swords. And we can probably mix some Keshiks in for support and pillage if needed.

In Karakorum, I think we may need to build another Settler as we'll need Iron soon, especially if we find a route to Greece as we'll also need to mine and road the Iron.

Is it better to run 0% research for 3 turns and then 100% until the cash runs dry and then recycle again?

I read in one of the forums that rounding is always downwards meaning that you can loose beakers or gold. Say that you are making 5gpt at 50% science. That means 2.5 bpt and 2.5 gpt rounded down to 2 bpt and 2 gpt. I never bothered to test if this is true but I think this is one of the reasons that Warlords does not use integer arithmetics in these calculations. It does make a little difference for a small empire. I usually ignore this out of laziness :D. Would be interesting to determine though if we are getting barb beakers for Writing and if these beakers are also there when we are researching Writing ourselves.

Help! When I try to look at the save, I get this error message: Mods\HOF-1.74.SGOTM5\ is an invalid mod directory, ignoring
The game will not open leif’s save, but I find that it will open the save for GOTM21. What do I do? Please be aware that your advice has to be understood and applied by a computer illiterate.

Help! When I try to look at the save, I get this error message: Mods\HOF-1.74.SGOTM5\ is an invalid mod directory, ignoring
The game will not open leif’s save, but I find that it will open the save for GOTM21. What do I do? Please be aware that your advice has to be understood and applied by a computer illiterate.
The MOD for GOTM 21 is different from the MOD for this SGOTM. The MOD for this SGOTM is named HOF-1.74.SGOTM05 and you need to place this folder in the MOD directory located as explained at this link location. (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=5718714&postcount=17)

I do not know what version of windows you have? If you have further problems and if you are using Vista, please post that as Brother Bede knows how to resolve this better than I. If you are using Windows XP, placing the MOD in the correct location on your hardrive should solve the problem, I hope. :please:

EDIT - If you need to download the MOD file, you can use this link. (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/civ4games/HOF-1.74.SGOTM5.zip)

leif . . . I have Windows Home XP.

I didn't realize there were two different HOF mods. Unfortunately, that appears only the beginning of the problem. I downloaded into the mod folder that Bede recommended in the link you provided and extracted it from its zipped folder. When I load your save now I get the following:The file that you have selected is protected to ensure that the assets in your mod folder have not been changed

To reiterate . . . Help!

I found this post which seems that it must be relevant, if only I understood what it implies I should do.

"PROBLEM SOLVED

The save file you have selected is protected to ensure that the assets in your mod folder have not been changed."

reinstalled Civ IV, Patch 1.61, Patch 1.74 and the latest HOF mod but the problem still persisted. It turns out that the problem was caused by using an executable version of Civ IV that doesn't require the CD to be present. When I inserted the CD and used the normal .exe file, everything worked fine."

How do you use "the normal .exe file?" I have the CD in.

Please check this link. (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=5785001&postcount=109)

Brother Bede says you need to be using the administrator's account as it has access to all the files on your computer. If you are using a separate account that was set up, that may be what is giving you the problem? :hmm:

I found this post which seems that it must be relevant, if only I understood what it implies I should do.

"PROBLEM SOLVED

The save file you have selected is protected to ensure that the assets in your mod folder have not been changed."

reinstalled Civ IV, Patch 1.61, Patch 1.74 and the latest HOF mod but the problem still persisted. It turns out that the problem was caused by using an executable version of Civ IV that doesn't require the CD to be present. When I inserted the CD and used the normal .exe file, everything worked fine."

How do you use "the normal .exe file?" I have the CD in.
If you have played GOTM21 without a problem, I doubt this would apply to you.
As I read that thread, Firaxis provided a special executable file to that player. If you have played with the CD in the drive and it worked, the problem lies with where the MOD is located or that your system cannot access the mod because your user account doesn't have "permission" to do so.

Please check this link. (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=5785001&postcount=109)

Brother Bede says you need to be using the administrator's account as it has access to all the files on your computer. If you are using a separate account that was set up, that may be what is giving you the problem? :hmm:

There is no "seperate account" set up on my computer that I am aware of, and I have no idea how to access an "administrator's account" in the unlikely event that there is one.

If you have played GOTM21 without a problem, I doubt this would apply to you.
As I read that thread, Firaxis provided a special executable file to that player. If you have played with the CD in the drive and it worked, the problem lies with where the MOD is located or that your system cannot access the mod because your user account doesn't have "permission" to do so.

Are you sure the "special executable file" referred to isn't part of the patch that in most cases just works automatically?

I've spent most of the afternoon and exhausted my limited fix-it skills, not to mention my patience. I'm reluctant to devote any more time to the problem until I think there is good reason to think it will be well spent. Better cue Brother Bede to formulate a tentative game plan.

I do appreciate your effort to help.

We are now beyond my means to effectively help you. :crazyeye: I think you should either wait for Bede to come up in the thread and see if he can help or send Bede a PM.

I would hate to make things worse, especially when I can't see your monitor. :sad:

Are you sure the "special executable file" referred to isn't part of the patch that in most cases just works automatically?
No, I know it isn't part of the patch as I had no problem with this. Have you been able to play GOTM21?

I've spent most of the afternoon and exhausted my limited fix-it skills, not to mention my patience. I'm reluctant to devote any more time to the problem until I think there is good reason to think it will be well spent. Better cue Brother Bede to formulate a tentative game plan.
Sorry to hear this. I understand how impossible it may seem. I just built a new system for my kids and the motherboard was not working right and it took me a couple of frustrating days to convince tech support to take it back.

I do appreciate your effort to help.
As always, you're welcome. Sorry I couldn't find an "easy" answer.

leif . . . I have Windows Home XP.

I didn't realize there were two different HOF mods. Unfortunately, that appears only the beginning of the problem. I downloaded into the mod folder that Bede recommended in the link you provided and extracted it from its zipped folder. When I load your save now I get the following:The file that you have selected is protected to ensure that the assets in your mod folder have not been changed

To reiterate . . . Help!

What is the full path to the Mod starting at C:\ ?

I think you may have created a duplicate folder.

Didn't Bugsy post a problem like this in the support thread? Do you know if he ever figured it out? He hasn't posted there since his last post stating he was still having problems.

Bede . . .

Here is where downloaded the HOF mod: C:\Program Files\Firaxis Games\Sid Meier's Civilization 4\Mods

This is the same place where the regular GOTM mods are all located. There is also a zipped version of the mod there. I right clicked on it and extracted, but it remains as well.

Any advice will be appreciated.

CP,

From your post it sounds like you might have double HOF folders from the zip extract.

Your mod folders should have loaded like this (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=5744129&postcount=87) (from Maintenance thread)

It won't work right if it has the double HOF folders like this screen shot (http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k217/mastiffofar/civscreen.jpg?t=1185654858): (from Maintenance thread)

Nice screen shots Gator, that should help. :goodjob:

Double folders sounds like the problem. :crazyeye:

CP,

From your post it sounds like you might have double HOF folders from the zip extract.

Your mod folders should have loaded like this (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=5744129&postcount=87) (from Maintenance thread)

It won't work right if it has the double HOF folders like this screen shot (http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k217/mastiffofar/civscreen.jpg?t=1185654858): (from Maintenance thread)

Gator . . .

I do not get a flow chart down the left hand side of my windows, as in both screen shots. I deleted the zipped folder from the mod window, and tried the game again, but got the same error message. If there is a duplicate folder that I've downloaded somewhere, I can't find it using SEARCH.

I'l try again tomorrow, when I will delete the one file I have and download again. Can you give me a link to the place from whence YOU downloaded the SGOTMHOF-1.74 mod?

Bede should probably play next.

I do not get a flow chart down the left hand side of my windows, as in both screen shots. I deleted the zipped folder from the mod window, and tried the game again, but got the same error message. If there is a duplicate folder that I've downloaded somewhere, I can't find it using SEARCH.
To get the chart down the left hand side you have to be in Windows Explorer.

Click Start, then mouse over All Programs, look for Accessories in the list and mouse over it, then find Windows Explorer and click on it. Whatever folder you click on in the left column, its contents shows up in the right side window.

I'll try again tomorrow, but Bede should probably play next.
Would you like to swap with Bede or wait until tomorrow to decide?

Good luck! :please: :thumbsup:

To get the chart down the left hand side you have to be in Windows Explorer.

Click Start, then mouse over All Programs, look for Accessories in the list and mouse over it, then find Windows Explorer and click on it. Whatever folder you click on in the left column, its contents shows up in the right side window.

Well, that's interesting to learn: however, when I do get the flow chart column, I can look into GAMES . . .CIV4 . . . (and find no stealth invader in the mod file), but PROGRAM FILES>FRAXIS GAMES>CIV4>etc.> is nowhere to be found.


Would you like to swap with Bede or wait until tomorrow to decide?

As late as it is, it's worth another try in the morning before passing to Bede.

Good luck! :please: :thumbsup:

In addition to another download route, I'd also like to know exactly what to do after I've saved the file.

BTW, I never responded to: "No, I know it isn't part of the patch as I had no problem with this. Have you been able to play GOTM21?"

I have played to 2500BC without incident.

Well, that's interesting to learn: however, when I do get the flow chart column, I can look into GAMES . . .CIV4 . . . (and find no stealth invader in the mod file), but PROGRAM FILES>FRAXIS GAMES>CIV4>etc.> is nowhere to be found.
Let's give this a try. When you enter Windows Explorer, it takes you to your My Documents folder first, that is why you can see the games folder. It looks like this.
http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k27/civgeek/CIVSGOTM05/Win-Expl.jpg

You need to click on the "-" sign to close My Documents and then on the "+" to expand My Computer. When My Computer is expanded, it should look like:
http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k27/civgeek/CIVSGOTM05/C_Drive.jpg

Now expand the C:\ drive by clicking on the "+" sign next to it. You should find the Program Files folder and you can expand that, again, by clicking the "+" sign. Please ignore my Program Files x86 folder as I have Windows XP 64 bit edition, so it creates an extra folder for me that you shouldn't have
http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k27/civgeek/CIVSGOTM05/Firaxis_Mods.jpg

You should now be able to navigate to the Firaxis folder and find the MOD folder to see what it looks like.

In addition to another download route, I'd also like to know exactly what to do after I've saved the file.
It should work the same as when you load up GOTM21. Just to see if things are working, I'd use the long route. Start Civ4, click on "Advanced" and then "Mods" and start the 1.74-SGOTM05 mod and let the game restart. Then check to see that the MOD loaded by looking in the upper right hand corner of the first screen. It should have its name there. Then go to Single Player and load the game from where you have stored the Save File.

BTW, I never responded to: "No, I know it isn't part of the patch as I had no problem with this. Have you been able to play GOTM21?"

I have played to 2500BC without incident.
This is good as it probably means the problem is with how the MOD is stored on the system instead of being a save problem. The 1.74 mod works. That helps to tell us it is not the game but the mod.

Again, Good Luck. :D

"You should now be able to navigate to the Firaxis folder and find the MOD folder to see what it looks like."

You are giving me an education in computer navigation, leif. I did as you so precisely explained, and everything looks to me to be in order. My other HOF mods -- the working ones -- are there as with you. When I save the game, it comes in a zipped folder, which I have to right click on and then click on "extract all" to get an unzipped file to appear in the window (along with the zipped file). I mention this because there is no zipped file in your Mods window.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Cactus Pete
In addition to another download route, I'd also like to know exactly what to do after I've saved the file.

The unzipping and extracting is what I was alluding to here.

It should work the same as when you load up GOTM21. Just to see if things are working, I'd use the long route. Start Civ4, click on "Advanced" and then "Mods" and start the 1.74-SGOTM05 mod and let the game restart. Then check to see that the MOD loaded by looking in the upper right hand corner of the first screen. It should have its name there. Then go to Single Player and load the game from where you have stored the Save File."

Again, I was able to do exactly as you so precisely suggested. The Mod name appeared in the right hand corner, I loaded the game, and now I get this:

Runtime Error!
Program: ...Games\Sid Meier's Civilization 4\Civilization 4. exc

The application has requested the Runtime to terminate in an unusual way. Please call the application's support team for more information.

Looks like it wants to run the program from the GAMES, rather than the PROGRAM FILES>FRAXIS, Mods window??

This is such fun.

look inside the HOF-1.74.SGOTM05 folder.. if there is another HOF-1.74.SGOTM05 folder inside it, then you extracted the file wrong... there should be an assets folder, an ini file and some other files (should look the same as inside the as in the 1.74.001 folder)

You are giving me an education in computer navigation, leif. I did as you so precisely explained, and everything looks to me to be in order. My other HOF mods -- the working ones -- are there as with you. When I save the game, it comes in a zipped folder, which I have to right click on and then click on "extract all" to get an unzipped file to appear in the window (along with the zipped file). I mention this because there is no zipped file in your Mods window.
Sorry, I should have gone one more screenshot deeper, as Gyathaar suggests. Here is what should be inside the mod folder:
http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k27/civgeek/CIVSGOTM05/Mod_Folder.jpg

The unzipping and extracting is what I was alluding to here.
Sorry again, dense this morning. What I do is I have a separate folder named CivFanatics. In this folder I place all the CivFanatic downloads. I run the zip files from this folder and then tell winzip where I want the files extracted to. That way, I never have any of the downloaded zip files in the way of the game software. That is why there is no zip file located in my MOD Folders. This is how I learned to navigate my computer so well. :mischief:

Please take anything, folders or whatever, out that do not look like the screenie. If there is a second folder with the HOF-1.74.SGOTM05 folder that is labeled HOF-1.74.SGOTM05, then you extracted it incorrectly. The way to repair this is to highlight the contents of the second folder (you can click Edit and then Select All and it will highlight it for you) and click on File and then Cut, go up one folder (to the first HOF-1.74.DGOTM05 folder) and click on Edit and then Paste. Then delete the second HOF-1.74.SGOTM05 folder that you see.

Hope that was clear. :rolleyes: I'm not sure how else to explain it atm.

Gyathaar . . .

Will be sending you a PM.

Cactus Pete

I tried to do exactly as you specified, leif, and I was left with a window identical to yours except that my Readme file is an HTML document, rather than Firefox, AND the Configuration Setting has only 1 KB (rather than the 16 yours has). I have not extracted anything manually. That is the way it comes from the SGOTM site, as far as I can tell.

Now I can indeed load your save, but it is unplayable. Let me count the ways:

there is nothing but a map with units on it -- no icons to click at the top or in the lower right corner

the keyboard is useless, only the mouse works to move units

can't exit the game without using control/alternate/delete

Can you lend me some configuration settings?

This is a copy of the config file for the mod.





## NOTE: The parsing program used by HOF MOD only recognizes "#" for comments. Don't use ";".
################################################## ########################
[CONFIG]

# No team play allowed
NoTeams = 0

# Always start in the standard era
ForceStandardEra = 0

# Skip the Main menu
SkipMainMenu = 0

# This mod is only for single player games
SinglePlayerOnly = 1

# Allow public maps to be used with this mod
AllowPublicMaps = 1

# Mod Image file
ImageFile = 0

# Name of Mod
Name = HOF-1.74.001

# Description of Mod
Description = Approved HOF Mods

################################################## #########################
[HOFSettingsChecks]

# When true adds a message to the log on startup if any settings problems are found. (0 = 'False', 1 = 'True')
SHOW_ON_STARTUP = 1


# When true the settings are checked to see if they are allowed for the HOF. If not then the problems are
# detailed in red on the Settings page of the Victory Conditions screen. (0 = 'False', 1 = 'True')
SHOW_ON_VICTORY_CONDITIONS_SCREEN = 1


################################################## #########################
[DisplayDefaults]

rrau . . .

I have no idea what use I can put this to.

Copy and paste it into the configuration file. In mine, the configuration file is a text file. [edit] Unforunately, I can't upload it as it's not a valid file type to upload.

I tried to do exactly as you specified, leif, and I was left with a window identical to yours except that my Readme file is an HTML document, rather than Firefox, AND the Configuration Setting has only 1 KB (rather than the 16 yours has). I have not extracted anything manually. That is the way it comes from the SGOTM site, as far as I can tell.
Now that you understand the directory structure, I think I would recommend that you delete the HOF-1.74.SGOTM05 folder completely. I would also delete the .zip file you downloaded.

Then I would download the HOF-1.74.SGOTM05 file again. And then would reinstall it by extracting it and placing it in the C:\Program Files\Firaxis Games\Sid Meier's Civilization4\Mods folder.

Then let's see how it works? I'm afraid something may have gotten messed up in all the moving around of files and folders? Trying to patch the different files would seem to me to be an exercise in further frustration as making a change to one may not correct things.

Does this sound like a reasonable thing to try? Good luck.

Yes, that seems like a very, very intelligent thing to do . . . and I had already tried it before getting the results I discussed in my last post.

Better cue Bede.

I tried to do exactly as you specified, leif, and I was left with a window identical to yours except that my Readme file is an HTML document, rather than Firefox, AND the Configuration Setting has only 1 KB (rather than the 16 yours has). I have not extracted anything manually. That is the way it comes from the SGOTM site, as far as I can tell.

Readme file doesn't matter. It's odd that you Configuration Setting is only 1 KB. When I extract the HOF-1.74.SGOTM5 zip file I get a 13 KB file. Something must have gone wrong when you unzipped.... Maybe you should delete your HOF-1.74.SGOTM5 folder and repeat the unzip one more time.

EDIT: X-posted with leif

EDIT: If you pm me with your e-mail address I could also send you the configuration file attached to an e-mail.

EDIT: Going to bed now so you better pm someone else. Hope you will get this problem fixed.

Readme file doesn't matter. It's odd that you Configuration Setting is only 1 KB. When I extract the HOF-1.74.SGOTM5 zip file I get a 13 KB file. Something must have gone wrong when you unzipped.... Maybe you should delete your HOF-1.74.SGOTM5 folder and repeat the unzip one more time.


Yes, the Configuration file being only 1KB coupled with the lack of ability to do anything when you open the game indicates that lack of configuration might be the problem! Somehow that configuration file got zapped...

The suggestion of re-downloading the mod and unzipping again sounds good... :)

Edit: Hopefully you don't have some other problem that will continue to zap the configuration file...? I don't know how that would happen.

I tried to do exactly as you specified, leif, and I was left with a window identical to yours except that my Readme file is an HTML document, rather than Firefox, AND the Configuration Setting has only 1 KB (rather than the 16 yours has). I have not extracted anything manually. That is the way it comes from the SGOTM site, as far as I can tell.

Now I can indeed load your save, but it is unplayable. Let me count the ways:

there is nothing but a map with units on it -- no icons to click at the top or in the lower right corner

the keyboard is useless, only the mouse works to move units

can't exit the game without using control/alternate/delete

Can you lend me some configuration settings?

CP, I have attached the HoF Configuration file you need. You need to rename it to "HoF-1.74.SGOTM5.ini" to use it. No quotes and you need to have "Show extensions of known file types" turned on to get the changes to the file name correct.

At long, long, last. With the proper Configuration Settings, all seems to be working. (Sure wish I knew what I did wrong to cause such difficulties!)

I'll post a game plan before I retire tonight. I will be available throughout most of tomorow for discussion and can play tomorrow night or any time sooner or later, once the team has reached a consensus.

Thanks for your time and effort required to help.

leif . . . During this frustrating foul-up, I have noted the value of good screen shots beyond the game. Are you still brave enough to try to lead me through that?