"CP - if you look at your most recent auto save you should be able to calculate how many beakers we are getting for Meditation and Polytheism by comparing with your final save."

If I have a last "auto save," I've no idea where to find it.

"Don't attack Sal's galley - the 10% coastal defense bonus matters!"

Yes, but should Sal manage to position his galley to block a necessary route, you will almost always be able to succeed two against one (sacrificing your first galley).

Let us know when you've begun play, have a fair dinkum turn! (Not sure how to spell that or exactly what it means or what it derives from. Have I given it proper Aussie usage?)

If I have a last "auto save," I've no idea where to find it.


You do have one. In the folder where your saves are placed there is also a sub folder named "auto". In there is a number of auto saves named "AutoSave_BC-xxxx" where xxxx is the date (from the game). You can load these saves from within the game.

You do have one. In the folder where your saves are placed there is also a sub folder named "auto". In there is a number of auto saves named "AutoSave_BC-xxxx" where xxxx is the date (from the game). You can load these saves from within the game.

Well, so I do. Never looked in that folder before. Is there a quick, simple explanation for the five or six saves that I find there? Don't see a pattern.

Those are the five saves from your current game. After five it deletes the first. I don't know if the five also include the Initial Save from 4000BC. The default auto save interval is 4 turns IIRC. I recommend you edit the Civ4 Configuration file found in the My Games path to change that interval to 1. Also starting a new game from Play Now or Custom Game will empty the folder.

Those are the last five saves from your current game. After five it deletes the first. I don't know if the five also include the Initial Save from 4000BC.
The .ini file determines the frequency of the saves. I believe the default is every 5 turns. For GOTM and SGOTM, that interval should be set to 1. The reason is that should the game crash, you can call up the autosave and do not have to replay any other turns. I'd give you a screenie, but I'm still dead in the water, sorry.

I looked in the GOTM rules because I think both AlanH and Ainwood have described how to do it before, but I couldn't find it. :shake:

The .ini file determines the frequency of the saves. I believe the default is every 5 turns. For GOTM and SGOTM, that interval should be set to 1. The reason is that should the game crash, you can call up the autosave and do not have to replay any other turns. I'd give you a screenie, but I'm still dead in the water, sorry.

I looked in the GOTM rules because I think both AlanH and Ainwood have described how to do it before, but I couldn't find it. :shake:

I can't find anything within the My Games flow chart, and, since it seems I've been playing without a net, when you get back on, leif, appreciate your usual precise instructions.

I can't find anything within the My Games flow chart, and, since it seems I've been playing without a net, when you get back on, leif, appreciate your usual precise instructions.

I'm not leif, but here's the pic.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/37083/Civ.ini.jpg

Right click the Civilization4.ini file and select Edit. Then search for autosave and change the interval to 1

Yup, that's the ticket! :rockon:

:thanx: Brother Bede.
A new MB is on the way so I can do this again!! :D

I'm surely missing something, but, when I right click on the file, there is no 'edit' available -- open, scan, rename, delete, copy, send, properties, but no edit

I've had a good read. I don't see any significant changes to the plan, but I see do see some good last minute advice :) Noted! I will probably begin to play in about two or three hours. I'll post a note here just before I start. Any further last minute advice will be read then.

Let us know when you've begun play, have a fair dinkum turn! (Not sure how to spell that or exactly what it means or what it derives from. Have I given it proper Aussie usage?)

"fair dinkum" is an expression which indicates "true" or "the real thing" or "you can rely on that" kind of sense, depending on context. The way you've used it above is not quite right, but it's a good attempt ;) I presume you are wishing me a really good turn set, in which case, using Aussie lingo, you could say "Have a bonza turn set mate!" :D

Let me give you some examples of the use of "fair dinkum"...
Two people are having a hypothetical (probably totally unrealistic) conversation:

"G'day mate! Carol and Steve got engaged today, d'ya hear?"
"Fair dinkum?"
"Fair dinkum!"
"Heh - Steve's a fair dinkum romantic huh?"

Translation to standard (ie not spoken anywhere) English:
"Hello friend! Did you know that Carol and Steve got engaged today?"
"Is that really true?"
"It's absolutely true!"
"Steve's a genuine romantic, isn't he?"

I'm surely missing something, but, when I right click on the file, there is no 'edit' available -- open, scan, rename, delete, copy, send, properties, but no edit

I changed mine a while back by selecting "open with" after right clicking on it and selecting from there note pad and then editing as Leif/Bede suggest.

I'll start playing in a few minutes.

I changed mine a while back by selecting "open with" after right clicking on it and selecting from there note pad and then editing as Leif/Bede suggest.
Not to confuse the issue. :blush:
I usually click Start, All Programs, Accessories, and then Notepad. Once it is running, click File and then Open. Now you can navigate to the .ini file, click on it and find "SaveInterval=" and change it to 1. I think that should do it? :D

:thanx: For the lesson in Aussie! :)

:thumbsup: Hope all is going well MP! :cool:

I’ve finished playing. I had some joy, but also considerable frustration, particularly in Arabia. With all that WW, it seems like we’re running on the spot!

I played 18 turns, and it’s now 65AD. At the end of the turn set, both Saladin and Izzy will accept even peace deals. I’d recommend we accept them, but I’ve left them hanging to let you guys say something different. Beshbalik is just three turns from expanding culture and popping those huts. The economy is looking real sad with the bigger army, and all that WW. We have 219 gold in the bank thanks to zero science for 18 turns and some plunder, but we’re gaining only 4gpt at zero science! We’ve discovered maths, meditation and polytheism during my turnset, and are creeping towards construction (a mere 496 turns to go at 0%...) and the barbs are getting 3 free beakers/turn towards Monotheism, though nothing else. It’s currently at 18/351 – so a long, long way at this rate! We now have more army on the big continent and are in a position to give someone some grief there – Asoka?

Anyhow – here’s a turn by turn description from my notes…

I open the file, it’s 205BC. I start the obelisk in Beshbalik, and have a look around. I notice no cities on Alex’s list, so he therefore has only Athens? I hit enter.

T1 190BC
We learn maths, start construction. (74 turns at 40%)
Set science to zero (now it’s 1,023 turns…)
Saladin settles Kurfah on the hill on our island where his settler was cutting our island in half.
He also settles Basra in the south of his own island
We have a library in Karakorum, but I can’t put on a scientist? Huh? There’s something wrong here is there not? This is not good. A bug? Should we tell Gyathaar about this?
I start pre-chopping iron city forests

T2 175BC
Forest 1NW of Turfan is indeed already pre-chopped as Fred said
Start chopping forest north of that
See Seville – it’s defended by a comb I spear and garr I archer. We’ll need more than just the two axes to take it – I’m not feeling so lucky as to attack it with two axes when the first is attacking at 29%.
Spanish settler and spear head NW from Madrid
Barbs are being really stupid in China
Meditation making 8 beakers per turn and poly 5 per turn. We’ll get both these before the huts pop easily.

T3 160BC
Spanish settler and spear run back to Madrid as barb sword approaches
Chinese archer and settler in galley head west from Guangzhou

T4 145BC
First sign that things will go sour in Arabia: Damascus culture expands pushing the healing axe SE, cutting him off from the spear who is going west to check copper mine.
Spear can’t get close enough to Saladin’s copper to see it without entering now expanded Medina culture! Grrr!:wallbash:
Caught Spanish garr I archer in the open west of Seville. Killed it.
Land scout 2E of Seville as bait.
Beijing culture pressing the barbs in Shanghai

T5 130BC
Settler finishes in Turfan, start axe
We learn Meditation
Pyramids are built in a far away land
Izzy doesn’t take the scout bait (chicken!!)
Cut road W of Seville
Move scout NW next to Seville in jungle to see if she’ll bite there, but there’s an archer coming down from the north! Rats! Move an axe next to scout to eat archer.
It’s time for war with Saladin – we just have to get a galley past Najran now.
Spear moves into Arabian territory with war declaration. His copper is being developed by a worker, that I can’t reach with the spear, and he has yet two more turns work to do on it.
The Axe on Saladin’s island moves west to check out Basra which should be only defended by a chariot, but sees two garr I archers about to enter Basra! He’ll try to head west to meet the spear to go plundering together.
Barb galleys are useless idiots sailing in circles
Whip the obelisk in Beshbalik

T6 115BC
Alex adopts hereditary rule
Izzy still didn’t kill the scout! Incredible. The archer coming from the north walks around the axe and scout. I kill the coward.
Barbs now studying construction with us and the time to reach it drops to only just over 500 turns… :p
2 garr I archers reach Basra before the barbarians arrive
Worker on Saladin’s unfinished copper mine runs, leaving 2 turns work to be done yet
Barb axe and sword get hammered near Madrid :(

T7 100BC
Old Sarai established on iron hill. Ouch, that hit the economy.
Start swords immediately in Karakorum and Turfan
I wanted to move spear to Arabian hamlet, but four chariots appear on the horizon, so elect to keep the spear camped on that hill so he can defend better.
Izzy built a second spear in Seville and immediately sends it SW (idiot)
Cyrus now decides to be annoyed at us (without changing from the -3) so there goes hope of opening borders with him!
Hangzhou established on old ruins to the west of Chinese island

T8 85BC
Our first sword is produced in Turfan :)
Barbs suiciding in large numbers at Basra, Hangzhou and Madras

T9 70BC
Woeful turn. Our spear on a hill in Saladin territory is killed by a chariot! He killed an archer first, and did not seem to be severely damaged, but that chariot won a very lucky battle indeed.
Barb sword plunders the road near Kufah in the middle of our island Grr! :wallbash:

T10 55BC
Mahavira built in Beijing
Barb sword wounds archer in Kufah. We have a passing sword handy who finishes off the job. It seemed a waste to let a wounded archer in a city on a hill live when we could so easily kill it. Kufah is burned down automatically. The swords gets badly wounded in a 94% battle!! The RNG gods hate me it seems. At least he survived and won the battle.
4 chariots gather around our axe on the Arabian island. He camps in a forest to do as much damage as possible. I don’t think he’ll live to plunder if he goes out there…
Cyrus is back to cautious because of the “years of peace” so accepts open borders. No resources can be traded – apparently our bridge is not adequate…?

T11 40BC
Barbs continue to suicide ridiculously against India and China. We’ll never get peace with those guys the way the barbs are throwing themselves onto enemy arrows…
Saladin’s chariots have a committee meeting around our axe. Maybe he looks fierce enough to leave along fortified in that forest?

T12 25BC
We learn Polytheism
One of the four Arabian chariots attacks our axe and gets sliced up. The others wince and put it off until tomorrow. Wimps.
Random barbs are getting much more scarce. The other civs are starting to civilise the world!
Not getting any free beakers at all at the moment.

T13 10BC
2 chariots attack our axe on Saladin’s island. The first one loses, and the second one wins.
Now we’re getting 3 beakers a turn towards Monotheism

T14 5AD
Qin Shi founds Christianity, adopts organised religion

T15 20AD
Saladin completes Great Lighthouse.
Alex settles Sparta (only his second city!) by iron and stone on the island to our SE
Saladin will accept even peace deal if we want it
Izzy, Asoka and Qin Shi won’t have a bar of it

T16 35AD
Yawn
Oh I’ve been walking around Seville and blowing trumpets hoping the falls will fall down. Oh no walls. Heh – well I’ve been plundering anyhow while I wait for the cavalry (how I wish that was literal cavalry)

T17 50AD
Izzy finally kills our scout who was getting really bored staked out on the ground by Seville waiting for someone to come kill him. She built another archer in Seville and that came out and killed the scout. I killed the archer. :D

T18 65AD
Time to take Seville with the arrival of reinforcements finally. I take it without loss and burn it down. Axemen badly wounded, but none dedad.

Heh - I have some screen shots around here somewhere. I'll post them in a minute. The save is at the SGOTM progress page.

Here's what the iron city and surrounds look like:

158706

And the route to China (exactly as Gator predicted)

158704

Here's the unbelievably cowardly spanish archer who didn't want to attack a scout, having moved SW instead of SE:

158707

And the ruins of Seville at the end of the turnset:

158705

When I uploaded the save I got this turn log, which I'll post here in case someone is interested:

Here is your Session Turn Log from 205 BC to 65 AD:

Turn 153, 205 BC: Logging Game to File: autolog.txt
Turn 153, 205 BC: You have discovered Mathematics!

Turn 157, 145 BC: X-TeamSGOTM5's Axeman (5.50) vs Isabella's Archer (3.00)
Turn 157, 145 BC: Combat Odds: 98.3%
Turn 157, 145 BC: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 157, 145 BC: Isabella's Archer is hit for 26 (74/100HP)
Turn 157, 145 BC: Isabella's Archer is hit for 26 (48/100HP)
Turn 157, 145 BC: Isabella's Archer is hit for 26 (22/100HP)
Turn 157, 145 BC: Isabella's Archer is hit for 26 (0/100HP)
Turn 157, 145 BC: X-TeamSGOTM5's Axeman has defeated Isabella's Archer!
Turn 157, 145 BC: The Pyramids has been built in a far away land!
Turn 157, 145 BC: You have discovered Meditation!

Turn 158, 130 BC: You have constructed a Obelisk in Beshbalik. Work has now begun on a Galley.
Turn 158, 130 BC: Alexander adopts Hereditary Rule!

Turn 159, 115 BC: X-TeamSGOTM5's Axeman (5.50) vs Isabella's Archer (3.75)
Turn 159, 115 BC: Combat Odds: 86.6%
Turn 159, 115 BC: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 159, 115 BC: (Plot Defense: +50%)
Turn 159, 115 BC: (Combat: -25%)
Turn 159, 115 BC: X-TeamSGOTM5's Axeman is hit for 16 (84/100HP)
Turn 159, 115 BC: Isabella's Archer is hit for 24 (76/100HP)
Turn 159, 115 BC: Isabella's Archer is hit for 24 (52/100HP)
Turn 159, 115 BC: Isabella's Archer is hit for 24 (28/100HP)
Turn 159, 115 BC: Isabella's Archer is hit for 24 (4/100HP)
Turn 159, 115 BC: Isabella's Archer is hit for 24 (0/100HP)
Turn 159, 115 BC: X-TeamSGOTM5's Axeman has defeated Isabella's Archer!

Turn 160, 100 BC: Old Sarai has been founded.

Turn 161, 85 BC: Saladin's Archer (3.30) vs X-TeamSGOTM5's Spearman (5.60)
Turn 161, 85 BC: Combat Odds: 4.9%
Turn 161, 85 BC: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 161, 85 BC: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 161, 85 BC: (Plot Defense: +25%)
Turn 161, 85 BC: (Fortify: +5%)
Turn 161, 85 BC: X-TeamSGOTM5's Spearman is hit for 15 (85/100HP)
Turn 161, 85 BC: X-TeamSGOTM5's Spearman is hit for 15 (70/100HP)
Turn 161, 85 BC: Saladin's Archer is hit for 25 (75/100HP)
Turn 161, 85 BC: X-TeamSGOTM5's Spearman is hit for 15 (55/100HP)
Turn 161, 85 BC: Saladin's Archer is hit for 25 (50/100HP)
Turn 161, 85 BC: X-TeamSGOTM5's Spearman is hit for 15 (40/100HP)
Turn 161, 85 BC: X-TeamSGOTM5's Spearman is hit for 15 (25/100HP)
Turn 161, 85 BC: Saladin's Archer is hit for 25 (25/100HP)
Turn 161, 85 BC: Saladin's Archer is hit for 25 (0/100HP)
Turn 161, 85 BC: X-TeamSGOTM5's Spearman has defeated Saladin's Archer!
Turn 161, 85 BC: Saladin's Chariot (4.40) vs X-TeamSGOTM5's Spearman (2.40)
Turn 161, 85 BC: Combat Odds: 97.7%
Turn 161, 85 BC: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 161, 85 BC: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 161, 85 BC: (Plot Defense: +25%)
Turn 161, 85 BC: (Fortify: +5%)
Turn 161, 85 BC: (Combat: +100%)
Turn 161, 85 BC: X-TeamSGOTM5's Spearman is hit for 17 (8/100HP)
Turn 161, 85 BC: X-TeamSGOTM5's Spearman is hit for 17 (0/100HP)
Turn 161, 85 BC: Saladin's Chariot has defeated X-TeamSGOTM5's Spearman!

Edit: Looks like it was actually the archer that was phenomenally lucky nearly winning a 4.9% battle. The animation didn't seem to show the spear getting this badly wounded.

Turn 162, 70 BC: Mahavira has been born in Beijing!

Turn 163, 55 BC: X-TeamSGOTM5's Swordsman (6.60) vs Saladin's Archer (3.97)
Turn 163, 55 BC: Combat Odds: 94.9%
Turn 163, 55 BC: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 163, 55 BC: (Plot Defense: +25%)
Turn 163, 55 BC: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 163, 55 BC: (City Defense: +50%)
Turn 163, 55 BC: (Hills: +25%)
Turn 163, 55 BC: (City Attack: -30%)
Turn 163, 55 BC: X-TeamSGOTM5's Swordsman is hit for 17 (83/100HP)
Turn 163, 55 BC: X-TeamSGOTM5's Swordsman is hit for 17 (66/100HP)
Turn 163, 55 BC: Saladin's Archer is hit for 23 (45/100HP)
Turn 163, 55 BC: X-TeamSGOTM5's Swordsman is hit for 17 (49/100HP)
Turn 163, 55 BC: X-TeamSGOTM5's Swordsman is hit for 17 (32/100HP)
Turn 163, 55 BC: Saladin's Archer is hit for 23 (22/100HP)
Turn 163, 55 BC: Saladin's Archer is hit for 23 (0/100HP)
Turn 163, 55 BC: X-TeamSGOTM5's Swordsman has defeated Saladin's Archer!
Turn 163, 55 BC: You have captured Kufah!!!
Turn 163, 55 BC: You have pillaged 19 ? from the destruction of Kufah!!!

Turn 164, 40 BC: Saladin's Chariot (4.80) vs X-TeamSGOTM5's Axeman (9.10)
Turn 164, 40 BC: Combat Odds: 2.4%
Turn 164, 40 BC: (Extra Combat: -20%)
Turn 164, 40 BC: (Extra Combat: +20%)
Turn 164, 40 BC: (Plot Defense: +50%)
Turn 164, 40 BC: (Fortify: +5%)
Turn 164, 40 BC: (Combat: +25%)
Turn 164, 40 BC: Saladin's Chariot is hit for 27 (73/100HP)
Turn 164, 40 BC: Saladin's Chariot is hit for 27 (46/100HP)
Turn 164, 40 BC: X-TeamSGOTM5's Axeman is hit for 14 (77/100HP)
Turn 164, 40 BC: Saladin's Chariot is hit for 27 (19/100HP)
Turn 164, 40 BC: X-TeamSGOTM5's Axeman is hit for 14 (63/100HP)
Turn 164, 40 BC: Saladin's Chariot is hit for 27 (0/100HP)
Turn 164, 40 BC: X-TeamSGOTM5's Axeman has defeated Saladin's Chariot!
Turn 164, 40 BC: You have discovered Polytheism!

Turn 165, 25 BC: Saladin's Chariot (4.80) vs X-TeamSGOTM5's Axeman (6.97)
Turn 165, 25 BC: Combat Odds: 18.6%
Turn 165, 25 BC: (Extra Combat: -20%)
Turn 165, 25 BC: (Extra Combat: +20%)
Turn 165, 25 BC: (Plot Defense: +50%)
Turn 165, 25 BC: (Fortify: +10%)
Turn 165, 25 BC: (Combat: +25%)
Turn 165, 25 BC: Saladin's Chariot is hit for 26 (74/100HP)
Turn 165, 25 BC: X-TeamSGOTM5's Axeman is hit for 15 (53/100HP)
Turn 165, 25 BC: Saladin's Chariot is hit for 26 (48/100HP)
Turn 165, 25 BC: Saladin's Chariot is hit for 26 (22/100HP)
Turn 165, 25 BC: Saladin's Chariot is hit for 26 (0/100HP)
Turn 165, 25 BC: X-TeamSGOTM5's Axeman has defeated Saladin's Chariot!
Turn 165, 25 BC: Saladin's Chariot (4.40) vs X-TeamSGOTM5's Axeman (5.43)
Turn 165, 25 BC: Combat Odds: 38.7%
Turn 165, 25 BC: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 165, 25 BC: (Extra Combat: +20%)
Turn 165, 25 BC: (Plot Defense: +50%)
Turn 165, 25 BC: (Fortify: +10%)
Turn 165, 25 BC: (Combat: +25%)
Turn 165, 25 BC: Saladin's Chariot is hit for 26 (74/100HP)
Turn 165, 25 BC: Saladin's Chariot is hit for 26 (48/100HP)
Turn 165, 25 BC: X-TeamSGOTM5's Axeman is hit for 15 (38/100HP)
Turn 165, 25 BC: X-TeamSGOTM5's Axeman is hit for 15 (23/100HP)
Turn 165, 25 BC: X-TeamSGOTM5's Axeman is hit for 15 (8/100HP)
Turn 165, 25 BC: X-TeamSGOTM5's Axeman is hit for 15 (0/100HP)
Turn 165, 25 BC: Saladin's Chariot has defeated X-TeamSGOTM5's Axeman!

Another Edit: Ugly this one. Looks like Saladin's chariots got lucky here as well. I'm dark about the deal I got from the RNG gods this time!

Turn 166, 10 BC: Christianity has been founded in a distant land!
Turn 166, 10 BC: Qin Shi Huang adopts Organized Religion!

Turn 167, 5 AD: Saladin has completed The Great Lighthouse!

Turn 168, 20 AD: Turfan will become unhappy on the next turn

Turn 169, 35 AD: Turfan has grown to size 4
Turn 169, 35 AD: Turfan has become unhappy
Turn 169, 35 AD: Isabella's Archer (3.30) vs X-TeamSGOTM5's Scout (1.50)
Turn 169, 35 AD: Combat Odds: 99.7%
Turn 169, 35 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 169, 35 AD: (Plot Defense: +50%)
Turn 169, 35 AD: X-TeamSGOTM5's Scout is hit for 29 (71/100HP)
Turn 169, 35 AD: X-TeamSGOTM5's Scout is hit for 29 (42/100HP)
Turn 169, 35 AD: X-TeamSGOTM5's Scout is hit for 29 (13/100HP)
Turn 169, 35 AD: Isabella's Archer is hit for 13 (87/100HP)
Turn 169, 35 AD: X-TeamSGOTM5's Scout is hit for 29 (0/100HP)
Turn 169, 35 AD: Isabella's Archer has defeated X-TeamSGOTM5's Scout!
Turn 169, 35 AD: While defending, your Scout was destroyed by a Spanish Archer!

Turn 170, 50 AD: X-TeamSGOTM5's Axeman (5.50) vs Isabella's Archer (3.52)
Turn 170, 50 AD: Combat Odds: 93.6%
Turn 170, 50 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 170, 50 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 170, 50 AD: (Plot Defense: +50%)
Turn 170, 50 AD: (Combat: -25%)
Turn 170, 50 AD: X-TeamSGOTM5's Axeman is hit for 16 (84/100HP)
Turn 170, 50 AD: Isabella's Archer is hit for 24 (63/100HP)
Turn 170, 50 AD: X-TeamSGOTM5's Axeman is hit for 16 (68/100HP)
Turn 170, 50 AD: Isabella's Archer is hit for 24 (39/100HP)
Turn 170, 50 AD: Isabella's Archer is hit for 24 (15/100HP)
Turn 170, 50 AD: Isabella's Archer is hit for 24 (0/100HP)
Turn 170, 50 AD: X-TeamSGOTM5's Axeman has defeated Isabella's Archer!
Turn 170, 50 AD: Your Axeman has destroyed a Archer!

Turn 171, 65 AD: X-TeamSGOTM5's Axeman (5.50) vs Isabella's Archer (5.10)
Turn 171, 65 AD: Combat Odds: 61.0%
Turn 171, 65 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 171, 65 AD: (Plot Defense: +20%)
Turn 171, 65 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 171, 65 AD: (City Defense: +70%)
Turn 171, 65 AD: (City Attack: -20%)
Turn 171, 65 AD: (Combat: -25%)
Turn 171, 65 AD: X-TeamSGOTM5's Axeman is hit for 19 (81/100HP)
Turn 171, 65 AD: Isabella's Archer is hit for 20 (80/100HP)
Turn 171, 65 AD: Isabella's Archer is hit for 20 (60/100HP)
Turn 171, 65 AD: Isabella's Archer is hit for 20 (40/100HP)
Turn 171, 65 AD: Isabella's Archer is hit for 20 (20/100HP)
Turn 171, 65 AD: X-TeamSGOTM5's Axeman is hit for 19 (62/100HP)
Turn 171, 65 AD: X-TeamSGOTM5's Axeman is hit for 19 (43/100HP)
Turn 171, 65 AD: X-TeamSGOTM5's Axeman is hit for 19 (24/100HP)
Turn 171, 65 AD: X-TeamSGOTM5's Axeman is hit for 19 (5/100HP)
Turn 171, 65 AD: Isabella's Archer is hit for 20 (0/100HP)
Turn 171, 65 AD: X-TeamSGOTM5's Axeman has defeated Isabella's Archer!
Turn 171, 65 AD: Your Axeman has destroyed a Archer!
Turn 171, 65 AD: X-TeamSGOTM5's Axeman (5.50) vs Isabella's Spearman (3.47)
Turn 171, 65 AD: Combat Odds: 95.5%
Turn 171, 65 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 171, 65 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 171, 65 AD: (Plot Defense: +20%)
Turn 171, 65 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 171, 65 AD: (City Attack: -20%)
Turn 171, 65 AD: (Combat: -50%)
Turn 171, 65 AD: X-TeamSGOTM5's Axeman is hit for 15 (85/100HP)
Turn 171, 65 AD: Isabella's Spearman is hit for 25 (75/100HP)
Turn 171, 65 AD: Isabella's Spearman is hit for 25 (50/100HP)
Turn 171, 65 AD: X-TeamSGOTM5's Axeman is hit for 15 (70/100HP)
Turn 171, 65 AD: X-TeamSGOTM5's Axeman is hit for 15 (55/100HP)
Turn 171, 65 AD: X-TeamSGOTM5's Axeman is hit for 15 (40/100HP)
Turn 171, 65 AD: Isabella's Spearman is hit for 25 (25/100HP)
Turn 171, 65 AD: X-TeamSGOTM5's Axeman is hit for 15 (25/100HP)
Turn 171, 65 AD: Isabella's Spearman is hit for 25 (0/100HP)
Turn 171, 65 AD: X-TeamSGOTM5's Axeman has defeated Isabella's Spearman!
Turn 171, 65 AD: Your Axeman has destroyed a Spearman!
Turn 171, 65 AD: You have captured Seville!!!
Turn 171, 65 AD: You have destroyed the city of Seville!!!

Appears you've made the best of a bad situation, MP, and thanks for the bonza education in Aussie lingo.

When I look in my My Games Civ folder, there is no ini file. I used search and found two ini.bak files (one in CivIV, the other in Warlords) but no plain ini file. Moreover, when I tried to open that file (into Wordpad), a window came up saying Windows would have to look on the internet to find out how to open it.

I think you achieved many of our goals for this turn set. We have forced Izzy to negotiate, we have swords, one of the Arab cities on our island is gone, the huts will be popped very soon and the route to China has been explored. Military losses are inevitable - particularly when the RNG allows chariots to defeat spearmen :mad:.

Hopefully peace with Izzy will decrease WW to an acceptable level. We might want to do more pillaging in Arabia before agreeing to peace. Depends on the availability of units to achieve this goal.

:cheers: Nice work MP!! :goodjob:

I think you achieved many of our goals for this turn set. We have forced Izzy to negotiate, we have swords, one of the Arab cities on our island is gone, the huts will be popped very soon and the route to China has been explored. Military losses are inevitable - particularly when the RNG allows chariots to defeat spearmen :mad:.
I think this sums up well what I am thinking. All I may add is a big welcome to X Team and our love/hate relationship with the RNG God. :rolleyes:
Guess we didn't make enough sacrifices this week? :lol: :lol: :lol:

Hopefully peace with Izzy will decrease WW to an acceptable level. We might want to do more pillaging in Arabia before agreeing to peace. Depends on the availability of units to achieve this goal.
Let's hope so. And I agree on Arabia as well. Can, or do we, want to shift some units from Izzie's front over to push Salad? Or shall we go after someone else, like Asoka?

Roster:
RRAU - UP
Frederiksberg - On Deck
Cactus Pete
Leif
Bede
Mad Professor - just played! :thumbsup:

When I look in my My Games Civ folder, there is no ini file. I used search and found two ini.bak files (one in CivIV, the other in Warlords) but no plain ini file. Moreover, when I tried to open that file (into Wordpad), a window came up saying Windows would have to look on the internet to find out how to open it.
The .ini file name should be something like CivilizationIV.ini. I see in Bede's screenie that the .ini file is located in My Game? I thought it was in C:\Program Files\ etc. :hmm: Without my computer, I can't be sure. Sorry CP, another week or so and I should be back in business. :rolleyes:

Won't have a chance to examine the save carefully until tomorrow, but two quick queries:

Do we want peace or just cease fires?
Shouldn't we take out Najran just before any conciliatory agreement with Saladin?

Had a quick look at the save. Difficult position indeed :eek:.

Where do we attack next? Bangalore is an option if only we knew where it is. All other Indian cities are on hills and thus very hard to capture without cats. Maybe we should be content with doing some pillaging in India. Those gem mines will probably bring some cash.

The Great Lighthouse is in Mecca so we really must capture this city when we get cats. In preparation for that we should probably land a new pillaging party to keep the copper disconnected.

The Pyramids have been built in Athens! Makes this city more attractive to capture! Maybe building on the iron was a mistake after all?

We have 3 axes, 1 chariot, 1 warrior on the continent and 1 axe + 1 sword in a galley right off the coast of the continent. Another sword is waiting on the bridge island. How do we deploy these forces to do maximum damage and gain some gold at the same time.

On our home island we have 1 axe, 2 spears and 2 swords but two of those units are tied up by MP duty. Should they all go to Arabia or only some of them?

The warrior on the continent should probably return to Ning-hsia and take over the MP duties of the axe man.

It's tempting to settle the bridge city to China. Besides building a cultural bridge it will also be very food rich indeed with two clam and one fish resource within the fat cross. Such a city should easily be able to pay for itself. And we may have to attack China in order to force them to negotiate peace. We are now #1 in military power and still they refuse to make peace.

Won't have a chance to examine the save carefully until tomorrow, but two quick queries:

Do we want peace or just cease fires?
Shouldn't we take out Najran just before any conciliatory agreement with Saladin?

Since we can't get gold or techs in return for peace we might as well go for cease fires.

Najran is clearly annoying because it's blocking the route from the south to the bridge island. Unfortunately it's guarded by a CD2 archer and we might loose a sword trying to capture it. Maybe we should do it anyway before another archer gets built there. We have 2 swords nearby now.

Where do we attack next? Bangalore is an option if only we knew where it is. All other Indian cities are on hills and thus very hard to capture without cats. Maybe we should be content with doing some pillaging in India. Those gem mines will probably bring some cash.
If India is still at war with us, then we should probably go after them to try and force some kind of peace agreement?

The Great Lighthouse is in Mecca so we really must capture this city when we get cats. In preparation for that we should probably land a new pillaging party to keep the copper disconnected.
Yes, can we do this with a minimal number of units? Arabia is close to us so units we build can get there fairly quickly.

Najran is clearly annoying because it's blocking the route from the south to the bridge island. Unfortunately it's guarded by a CD2 archer and we might loose a sword trying to capture it. Maybe we should do it anyway before another archer gets built there. We have 2 swords nearby now.
Najran should be taken if possible. Do we dare to keep it, with our economy? :rolleyes:

The Pyramids have been built in Athens! Makes this city more attractive to capture! Maybe building on the iron was a mistake after all?
Yes, Athens is now a very attractive target. What is defending it and what terrain is the city built on? Can we afford to mount an operation over such a distance, all the way around the big island?

We have 3 axes, 1 chariot, 1 warrior on the continent and 1 axe + 1 sword in a galley right off the coast of the continent. Another sword is waiting on the bridge island. How do we deploy these forces to do maximum damage and gain some gold at the same time.
I think another objective is to try to force peace so we can get some control over the diplomatic situation?

It's tempting to settle the bridge city to China. Besides building a cultural bridge it will also be very food rich indeed with two clam and one fish resource within the fat cross. Such a city should easily be able to pay for itself. And we may have to attack China in order to force them to negotiate peace. We are now #1 in military power and still they refuse to make peace.
Are we ready to take this on? Seems like we're a bit overwhelmed atm? ;)

OK, I've had a look at the save.

We MIGHT be able to trade with Cyrus if we raze Santiago. I think that it's culture in the coast is blocking the trade route. (Although It might be civ3 that the routes were blocked like that....can't remember for sure......Or it might be no trading across ocean tiles no matter what)

Science wise, I can run sci at 100% with -30gpt for const in 26...Or hire a sci in Karakorum at the expense of 2gpt and get const in 199 at 0% sci....Hiring a scientist while running at 100% research makes no difference- it's still 26 turns---And that's if we had enough gold to do that, which we don't.:cry:

Or are we waiting and praying to the RNG for const to pop out of the thin air? (You DO realize I'm up and have horrible RNG luck.....we'll probably get maps:rolleyes: )

So, Thoughts.......Izzy: heal troops, head to Santiago and burn it and then get cease fire......Then go harass Ghandi and pillage away.

Saladin: We don't have troops on his main island, so pillaging is out unless we want to devote our troops to pillaging there for the next few hundred years while we learn construction.....Do we want to raze his remaining city on our island and get peace......knowing he'll probably resettle......Or just go ahead and get a cease fire?

Since we can't get gold or techs in return for peace we might as well go for cease fires.

Najran is clearly annoying because it's blocking the route from the south to the bridge island. Unfortunately it's guarded by a CD2 archer and we might loose a sword trying to capture it. Maybe we should do it anyway before another archer gets built there. We have 2 swords nearby now.

Yes, I think Najran can be captured within two or three turns. From memory I think there are two swords on our island who are heading westwards. One is quite close to Najran and the second only a turn or two's movement away. And Najran is quite clearly a nuisance where it is since it blocks any galley movement past that part of the island unless we're at war. I'd be in favour of burning it down before asking Saladin for peace.

Someone mentioned him just settling again. That's not such a bad thing - if he spends the hammers/food necessary to build another settler and archer to accompany it, that's several chariots less he'll have running around trying to cut up any force we send down there later...

OK, I've had a look at the save.

We MIGHT be able to trade with Cyrus if we raze Santiago. I think that it's culture in the coast is blocking the trade route. (Although It might be civ3 that the routes were blocked like that....can't remember for sure......Or it might be no trading across ocean tiles no matter what)

I didn't think of the culture from Santiago. That might be it...


Or are we waiting and praying to the RNG for const to pop out of the thin air? (You DO realize I'm up and have horrible RNG luck.....we'll probably get maps:rolleyes: )

You could be optimistic believing that it balances out in the long run and now is your time for payback, or alternatively, make some significant burnt offerings before playing... :crazyeye:


So, Thoughts.......Izzy: heal troops, head to Santiago and burn it and then get cease fire......Then go harass Ghandi and pillage away.

It's a fair walk to Santiago, even for the chariot, because it's jungle all the way. Then again it's a fair walk anywhere from where Seville was. We could even get a cease fire with Izzy to see how much it helps WW then attack Santiago. It will cost another -3 with Izzy, but who cares? She'll never be better than annoyed with us anyway and probably will be furious forever regardless of how many times we declare war on her. We'll certainly never trade with her, and we want her neck on the block eventually so upsetting her is no big deal.

Last time I saw Santiago I think there were two spears in there. Two archers came towards Seville from that direction while I was walking around Seville and I killed them both. She's probably busy building another one now.

I'm keen to get peace with Izzy while we can, and see if that helps the crippling unhappiness we have - it really is like running on the spot playing with this kind of heavy unhappy load.

On the other hand plundering India, finding that other city we don't know a location for and burning it down if it's not on a hill and capturable without cats might well get us a peace treaty with Asoka as well. It only took burning down one city to get Izzy to change her mind and accept peace. I'd really like to get the war list down, so then we can pick and choose who we are at war with, one or two at a time and manage the unhappies much more easily.


Saladin: We don't have troops on his main island, so pillaging is out unless we want to devote our troops to pillaging there for the next few hundred years while we learn construction.....Do we want to raze his remaining city on our island and get peace......knowing he'll probably resettle......Or just go ahead and get a cease fire?


I think getting rid of Najran at least is a good idea and it can be done quickly then get peace. We could go hassle him further I suppose. We could get an axe, 2 swords and a spear down there fairly promptly. The problem though would be that we'd have to declare war to get the first galley to land because his culture includes all his northern coastline. We wouldn't be able to gather a force down there then declare as we crossed the border.

We MIGHT be able to trade with Cyrus if we raze Santiago. I think that it's culture in the coast is blocking the trade route. (Although It might be civ3 that the routes were blocked like that....can't remember for sure......Or it might be no trading across ocean tiles no matter what)

Leif has determined that we can trade across the culture bridge - at least resources show up in our own cities. Even if we remove Santiago the trade route to the Persians will be very vulnerable. Maybe Bangalore is already somewhere on the coast blocking the trade route anyway.

Science wise, I can run sci at 100% with -30gpt for const in 26...Or hire a sci in Karakorum at the expense of 2gpt and get const in 199 at 0% sci....Hiring a scientist while running at 100% research makes no difference- it's still 26 turns---And that's if we had enough gold to do that, which we don't.:cry:

We should keep science at 0% at least until the huts pop. After that we could alternate running 100% for some turns and then turning it down to 0% again as the treasury is emptied.

So, Thoughts.......Izzy: heal troops, head to Santiago and burn it and then get cease fire......Then go harass Ghandi and pillage away.

Like MP says we might as well get a cease fire with Izzy immediately and then redeclare when we are ready to attack her again. I would put emphasis on pillaging India in an attempt to force them to negotiate a cease fire - maybe send 1-2 axes and a chariot to India and the swords and remaining axes towards Santiago?

Saladin: We don't have troops on his main island, so pillaging is out unless we want to devote our troops to pillaging there for the next few hundred years while we learn construction.....Do we want to raze his remaining city on our island and get peace......knowing he'll probably resettle......Or just go ahead and get a cease fire?

I think it's important that we continue to keep him backward with a pillaging party - maybe an axe and a spear. If we can keep his copper disconnected and pillage we are in a much better situation when we are ready to attack with cats.

Najran should be taken if possible. Do we dare to keep it, with our economy?

Najran has no resources at all and should be razed.

Are we ready to take this on? Seems like we're a bit overwhelmed atm?

Since our cities can't grow anyway building a settler at some point is a natural way of halting growth. A city on the NE island is close to Karakorum so it has low distance maintenance. Further it will grow fast due to the vast amounts of sea food and it will make good money for the treasury working those coast tiles. Finally it has strategic value since we may have to pay China a visit to force them into a peace deal.

Since our cities can't grow anyway building a settler at some point is a natural way of halting growth. A city on the NE island is close to Karakorum so it has low distance maintenance. Further it will grow fast due to the vast amounts of sea food and it will make good money for the treasury working those coast tiles. Finally it has strategic value since we may have to pay China a visit to force them into a peace deal.

Hmmm. That's a compelling list of reasons to establish such a city.

I presume you mean putting a city as indicated by the screenshot below?

158769

Hmmm. That's a compelling list of reasons to establish such a city.

I presume you mean putting a city as indicated by the screenshot below?



Exactly! There is fish 1SE of the city and two clam when the city expands to the fat cross. A forest is available to chop an obelisk/library. Library would be nice since this city could easily support 2 scientists. But maybe it's a waist of hammers since we might be close to shutting down research for good.

Najran has no resources at all and should be razed.
Sorry, I thought there was a banana and some hills in that area, along with a short river. But I am blind, so raze it seems. :goodjob:

Since our cities can't grow anyway building a settler at some point is a natural way of halting growth. A city on the NE island is close to Karakorum so it has low distance maintenance. Further it will grow fast due to the vast amounts of sea food and it will make good money for the treasury working those coast tiles. Finally it has strategic value since we may have to pay China a visit to force them into a peace deal.
You make some very good points. However, if we cannot allow a city to grow beyond 2 or 3 citizens due to war weariness, then little of this matters, except the strategic value of being able to reach China. It will further reduce our income and make it more difficult to support military in the field?

Unless there is a plan to go and visit China in order to force them into a peace or cease fire deal? And that might be biting off more than we can chew?

I think I would rather expend the resources to go and try to take Athens and The Pyramids so we can change to Hereditary Rule and get some smilies from MP's? :)

Sorry, I thought there was a banana and some hills in that area, along with a short river. But I am blind, so raze it seems.

I think it's because you are confusing Najran with the Arab city on the hill near the banana that MP razed during his turn set. Better get that motherboard installed soon :D.

You make some very good points. However, if we cannot allow a city to grow beyond 2 or 3 citizens due to war weariness, then little of this matters, except the strategic value of being able to reach China. It will further reduce our income and make it more difficult to support military in the field?

At size 3 this city will earn 8 gpt and have a maintenance cost of around 4 gpt. It will also affect the maintenance cost of some of the other cities but my estimate is that this will be no more than 4 gpt. We will pay a little less unit maintenance due to increased pop - maybe 1-2 gpt. Thus this city should be able to pay for itself and also pay back the hammers invested long before the game is over.

Unless there is a plan to go and visit China in order to force them into a peace or cease fire deal? And that might be biting off more than we can chew?

It could very well be necessary to raze one of the chinese cities to force a peace. The barbs have lost a lot of units against the chinese and we stand to loose even more now that the chinese will most likely recapture Shanghai. So WW in relation to China is probably high.

I think it's because you are confusing Najran with the Arab city on the hill near the banana that MP razed during his turn set. Better get that motherboard installed soon :D.
I'm trying, I'm trying!! :cry:
I am obviously :confused:

At size 3 this city will earn 8 gpt and have a maintenance cost of around 4 gpt. It will also affect the maintenance cost of some of the other cities but my estimate is that this will be no more than 4 gpt. We will pay a little less unit maintenance due to increased pop - maybe 1-2 gpt. Thus this city should be able to pay for itself and also pay back the hammers invested long before the game is over.
OK, you have made your points and won me over. Let's do it! :D

It could very well be necessary to raze one of the chinese cities to force a peace. The barbs have lost a lot of units against the chinese and we stand to loose even more now that the chinese will most likely recapture Shanghai. So WW in relation to China is probably high.
I know you are correct. :p
The problem will be sparing the units to do so. Although I will admit that it seems as though we have some time before Cats show up. It think that I am reading that the general strategy, once Cats are available, will be to deal with the Arabs and then proceed to the west and start on the big island, or perhaps head for the Pyramids? If this is so, what will we need to do to be prepared to do this by the time Cats are available? How many Galleys positioned to transport how many troops, etc?

Much to discuss . . .

I think that, if we get an immediate cease fire with Spain and then attack Santiago, it will be at least ten more turns before we can get another cease fire. I'm not certain Izzie will accept another one even then. What's the group's experience in these matters? Here are alternative plans:

Don't want to risk losing chariot to melee' unit in the jungle, so move him onto worker and eventually onto galley. Move galley 1W and unload units 1NW, then sail 1S. Galley then picks up chariot and warrior (who moves 1E next turn and then lets roadwork complete before proceeding onto galley). Sail east to add swordsman to chariot and drop warrior before sailing NW toward Santiago. On the sixth turn we would have 2 swords, an axe, and a chariot able to attack Santiago. If it has 2 spears and an archer defending a non-culture city, we would have a good shot. Question is . . . Do we want to hold off on a cease fire to find out?

Alternatively, we may want to get cease fire now, move on Santiago, break cease fire when it looks like we can take city, and continue to move swords to the big island with the intention of moving on Libyan after Santiago to help get another cease fire. Then we would move on India.

Promote the axeman on the big island with the red cross and have him move 1NW next turn to heal all units.

"The Great Lighthouse is in Mecca so we really must capture this city when we get cats. ABSOLUTELY. In preparation for that we should probably land a new pillaging party to keep the copper disconnected. Saladin may well have multiple axes now. If so, only a massive pillaging effort (initially with spears and especially axes) has much chance of success. We have committed our cities to producing swords, and swords and spears are fodder for axeman. I think the better course is to wait until we can initiate a move on Sal with two galleys with 3 axes and a spear aboard and more units ready to follow. Until then . . . quickly raze Najran, get a cease fire, road to the end of that penninsula, move two more existing units to the big island, finish sword production in cities, and see how things stand (especially with the huts). Until we get Construction, axemen, another spear, and perhaps a settler for the towards-China city would seem like the best next builds."

"The Pyramids have been built in Athens! Makes this city more attractive to capture! Maybe building on the iron was a mistake after all?" All too true in hindsight. No way to get to the Pyramids now, leif.

I think that, if we get an immediate cease fire with Spain and then attack Santiago, it will be at least ten more turns before we can get another cease fire. I'm not certain Izzie will accept another one even then. What's the group's experience in these matters? Here are alternative plans:

Don't want to risk losing chariot to melee' unit in the jungle, so move him onto worker and eventually onto galley. Move galley 1W and unload units 1NW, then sail 1S. Galley then picks up chariot and warrior (who moves 1E next turn and then lets roadwork complete before proceeding onto galley). Sail east to add swordsman to chariot and drop warrior before sailing NW toward Santiago. On the sixth turn we would have 2 swords, an axe, and a chariot able to attack Santiago. If it has 2 spears and an archer defending a non-culture city, we would have a good shot. Question is . . . Do we want to hold off on a cease fire to find out?

If we get a cease fire and then attack again Izzy will refuse to talk to us for a while. I don't know exactly for how many turns but it could easily be more than the 6 turns we need to get our units up there. If they find Santiago well defended they can wait for the 3 axes that are healing in the jungle. They should arrive only a few turns later. Or maybe even better - let the 3 axes heal for one turn and then bring them to join with the other units in 6 turns. At least 2 of the axes will be close to full strength and should be strong enough to kill wounded defenders. Anyway it looks as if we should be able to capture Santiago in a number of turns that is small enough to make this the best approach compared to redeclaring where we would also be at war for a number of turns after capturing the city.

After capturing Santiago I suggest we move on India - either to pillage or to capture Bangalore if we can find it and if it's not on a hill.

Promote the axeman on the big island with the red cross and have him move 1NW next turn to heal all units.

This is very important. And let the axes heal for one turn before they move north to join the other units.

Saladin may well have multiple axes now.

Some numbers: Our spear overlooking the copper was killed 9 turns ago when the mine was 2 turns from being finished so he may (worst case) have had copper connected for 7 turns now. The Great Lighthouse was built 4 turns ago so Mecca only had this number of turns to build axes. We need 10 turns to move an axe and a spear down to the copper. Should we risk this knowing that Sal may have a couple of additional axes? He may start building other stuff if we take out Najran fast and then sue for peace. Key thing is probably to keep the axe and the spear together in a stack for optimum defense against chariots/axes.

I don't think we are in a hurry to settle the Chinese bridge city - we could start building the settler when we need to stop growth somewhere to prevent angry citizens. And when we do we should also build a work boat somewhere else to let this new city get a fast start.

We should be able to whip the granary in Old Sarai shortly after it has grown to size 2.

If our workers run out of chores we can start cottaging the river banks of Beshbalik (plains), Ning-hsia (jungle) and Karakorum.

Like the paln to add axes to the Santiago operation.

"Some numbers: Our spear overlooking the copper was killed 9 turns ago when the mine was 2 turns from being finished so he may (worst case) have had copper connected for 7 turns now. The Great Lighthouse was built 4 turns ago so Mecca only had this number of turns to build axes. We need 10 turns to move an axe and a spear down to the copper. Should we risk this knowing that Sal may have a couple of additional axes? He may start building other stuff if we take out Najran fast and then sue for peace. Key thing is probably to keep the axe and the spear together in a stack for optimum defense against chariots/axes."

Seven turns are probably enough, and he could be building axes in other cities for 9 turns plus the 10 turns needed to sail to Arabia. I agree that he may indeed build another settler and even other stuff, but isn't it awfully optimistic to think he won't have multiple axes? If he does, two units are not likely to survive to pillage. Sal has behaved very agressively towards units on his territory, sacrificing units (and we know he has chariots in numbers) to take them out quickly. Why would this pattern change? I think we need to go in force or not at all right now, and I don't see another galley readily available or anything but swordsmen available for some time. We could utilize the two-tile island N of Arabia as a staging area and hope to fairly quickly land two swords on the same tile with the axe and spear who will have to be put on a forest to have any chance to survive until then. Want to weaken Sal, but not at all confident this would work. I'm thinking the prudent strategy is to get two more swords (or a sword and spear) to the big island (where there are already axes to protect them) and waiting for axes and, hopefully, Construction and war elephants.

Agree . . . try to get a cease fire from India after Santiago is razed.

OK:

Plan:

1) Raze Najran

2) Settler for island for Chinese passage

3) Sci at 0 until huts pop. Then alternate between 100% sci and 0%.

4) Promoted medic axeman and move to heal units. Then it sounds like the consensus is to send most units north, raze Santiago, and make peace with Izzy.

5) After peace with Izzy, go wreak havoc in Indian lands.

6) There's not been a consensus yet that I can tell about Saladin. It almost sounds to me like we'd be better off getting peace now and then hammering him when we get cats.

I'd like to play after work Thursday if we can come to a concensus. I can play tomorrow afternoon if we get one quicker, but not tomorrow night.

I'd like to see rrau play tomorrow afternoon, so encourage everyone to post their opinions regarding the wisdom of an Arab pillaging mission.

Rrau's plans looks OK to me.

If we're going to set foot in anger on the Arabian island, we need a good force. Axes, or not, I agree that Saladin has reacted quite aggressively to intruders. It would be a shame to see a ocuple of units go down there only to be killed. It was that thing exactly that frustrated me so much in my turnset, partly because the axe and spear got separated, but even had they not, I suspect they would not have achieved great things. I'm more inclined right now to get more people off our war list and get our citizens actually doing something other that sitting around with angry faces. If we get peace with Izzy after razing Santiago, get peace with Saladin after razing Najran, and change Asoka's mind about war by razing Bangalore (assuming we can find it and capture it) then we will be MUCH better off I think. After that we can pick and choose our wars, and not suffer so badly from WW. It's really dragging us down badly right now.

It seems to me that we are struggling to gain power ourselves while also working to keep the AI from gaining a power and tech advantage over us. Where Arabia seems fairly isolated, I assume they have no contact with the main island, then I think we can concentrate on the main island and try to get control of the diplo situation through war and, hopefully, peace deals that result.

First priority then seems to be heading for the main island and getting Santiago razed and then heading for Asoka. Once we have sufficient units to conduct this operation, then I think we need to get the city started up north to handle our eventual visit to China. Third priority is to get enough units prepped to go after Saladin. In my mind, pillaging Salad has a lesser priority for the time being. We may pay for this later, once we have Cats, when we try invading and finding some nasty Axes and a pile of Chariots? That's what Cats are for! :mischief:

A direct answer is that I think the pillage mission to Arabia can wait a bit longer while we get things straightened out on the large island. :)

If we can a get a couple of our Axes promoted to Shock, that would help against Salad's Axes. Don't know how many Galleys we have, but we may need a few more if we can afford it?

Rrau's plans looks OK to me.

If we're going to set foot in anger on the Arabian island, we need a good force. Axes, or not, I agree that Saladin has reacted quite aggressively to intruders. It would be a shame to see a ocuple of units go down there only to be killed. It was that thing exactly that frustrated me so much in my turnset, partly because the axe and spear got separated, but even had they not, I suspect they would not have achieved great things. I'm more inclined right now to get more people off our war list and get our citizens actually doing something other that sitting around with angry faces. If we get peace with Izzy after razing Santiago, get peace with Saladin after razing Najran, and change Asoka's mind about war by razing Bangalore (assuming we can find it and capture it) then we will be MUCH better off I think. After that we can pick and choose our wars, and not suffer so badly from WW. It's really dragging us down badly right now.

I concur with the above. Peace with Isabel after the sack of Santiago, peace with Saladin after negating Najaran, peace with Asoka after the burning of Bangalore, and then off on a Chinese adventure.

2) Settler for island for Chinese passage

Start building the settler when you need to stop growth in a city to prevent angry faces. We need a workboat also about the same time that the settler comes out. And make sure that a galley is close when the settler is built.


4) Promoted medic axeman and move to heal units. Then it sounds like the consensus is to send most units north, raze Santiago, and make peace with Izzy.

You might leave the axe that is most wounded to heal in the jungle. He could then escort the worker that is currently building a piece of road. I guess we could continue this road to the sea and then extend it inland afterwards. The two almost healed axes should head north and join the chariot, axe and two swords after 6 turns. CP explained all this in a previous post including sending the warrior back home to relieve the axe in Ning-hsia of MP duty.

6) There's not been a consensus yet that I can tell about Saladin. It almost sounds to me like we'd be better off getting peace now and then hammering him when we get cats.


I'm not against a cautious approach where we get peace with Saladin after razing Najran. It will indeed help us concentrate our forces on the continent.

Don't know how many Galleys we have, but we may need a few more if we can afford it?

I think we have 4 galleys. It's questionable if we can afford more with all the swords coming out soon - particularly because we also need some more axes if we are going to Arabia or China at some point.

I'd like to play after work Thursday if we can come to a concensus. I can play tomorrow afternoon if we get one quicker, but not tomorrow night.

It looks like concensus has more or less emerged. As far as I'm concerned you could play today. Good luck.

It looks like concensus has more or less emerged. As far as I'm concerned you could play today. Good luck.
Yes, :agree:. Good luck!! :thumbsup:

Please don't forget your sacrifice at the altar of the RNG... :mischief:
:please: :high5: :cheers:

We really need a sacrifice smilie around here... :crazyeye:

Looks like your go for 15-20 this afternoon, rrau. Make 'em count. Don't forget to move the warrior before you hit enter. Let us know when you've begun.

Starting now......I lit a candle to the RNG gods.

I'm pausing on my turn 13 (260ad) due to a problem that I want the team's input on.

Santiago was razed on my turn 4 (125ad) And got peace with Izzy that turn.

Now, Izzy has landed a settler and archer on the island we have our troops hike across to the big island. Will settle on a hill next turn. We should be able to declare war again in 1 turn (or 2 turns at the most). My question is: Do I declare war and reaccumulate war weariness or do I just sail the troops past that island. I've marked possible routes 1 and 2 that should be able to work until the culture grows too much.

I'm pausing on my turn 13 (260ad) due to a problem that I want the team's input on.

Santiago was razed on my turn 4 (125ad) And got peace with Izzy that turn.

Now, Izzy has landed a settler and archer on the island we have our troops hike across to the big island. Will settle on a hill next turn. We should be able to declare war again in 1 turn (or 2 turns at the most). My question is: Do I declare war and reaccumulate war weariness or do I just sail the troops past that island. I've marked possible routes 1 and 2 that should be able to work until the culture grows too much.

Assuming there has been a helpful drop in WW, a work around seems preferably to war. Can we not in due course put a worker back on the island and create a road NW through the horses that still saves us significant turns even after the city expands? Before expansion, your lower route looks good.

BTW, though I think it makes no difference in this instance, a cease fire, rather than peace, is generally better unless you gain something for signing a treaty.

The turns to finish constuction dropped dramatically with the peace treaties. It should be about researched by the time I finish my 20 turns if I don't have to drop the research rate.

Like CP I would prefer to avoid war - at least until Construction is discovered.

I agree. Let's get to Construction before we redeclare.

Nice work rrau! :thumbsup:

Shall I continue now or wait for the rest of the group?

I think you can continue. Most of us have answered. Good luck!

Obviously, you didn't get Construction from the huts. Did you get anything good? :mischief:

No harm in continuing.

You could also break your set in two parts and post your progress so far.

Either way is OK with me :) .

OK. Continuing. I've only got 7 more turns to go. Shouldn't take too long.

OK. Continuing. I've only got 7 more turns to go. Shouldn't take too long.

Don't rush :nono: :D

Good Luck!

Like CP I would prefer to avoid war - at least until Construction is discovered.

I certainly wouldn't have argued against that. The WW was really nasty. The significant drop in study time for Constrauction is testimony to that!! Get construction! After that WW is less of a problem in terms of costing us time to finish the game.

>>>THE SAVE<<< (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm5/Xteam_SG005_AD0365_01.Civ4SavedGame)

65 ad (0) move chario to worker. Promoted both swords that will be attacking Jajran with a cr promotion

80ad (1) Unload galley and move chariot and warrior towards it

95ad (2) Cyrus sends an immortal and archer near our stack of healing axes and my heart races until I realize who they belong to and we aren't at war with them....Huts ready to pop. *cross fingers*

110ad(3) We got a map:mad: and 51 gold but no techs :sad: . Lost the 1st swords against Najran at 65% without hurting the defending archer. After thinking, I move the axe out of Ning-Hsia (sp?) so it can attack next turn if needed and attack the archer again and the second sword captures and razes teh city for 89g. Set research to 100% on construction in 22 turns. Make peace with saladin. Send the sword and axe to reconnoiter Santiago that I'd unloaded on turn 1 - they arrived ahead of the rest. There's one spear in Santiago and one on the spice in the city square.

125ad (4) Still only 1 spear in Santiago...No culture.....:mischief: The axe has a 96% chance of winning and he captures and razes Santiago. Make peace with Isabella. Time to research construction drops to 19 turns. We can trade with Cyrus. We trade him a spare rice and our only pigs for ivory. Time on construction drops again to 18 turns.

140ad (5) Healing and moving troops. Now 16 turns to constuction

155ad (6) Healing and moving troops. Start settler in Karakorum...still has a resistor.

170ad (7) healing and moving troops.

185ad (8) Warrior finaly back to Ning -Hsia. Load the axe which was the garrison

200ad (9) NOt much

215ad (10) not much

230ad (11) I notice a Spanish galley with a settle and archer in it. Hoping it doesn't go to the walk/path island.

245ad (12) Pillage and Indian farm and notice that the Spanish galley's heading for the island.

260ad (13) Peace treaty with Saladin expires. Spanish settler and archer unloaded onto a hill....Pause for consultation. Construction in 8 at 100%, but maybe only 3 turns left in the kitty before we have to go back to 0% research. We decide to leave Izzy alone for now.

275ad (14) Peace treaty with Izzy expires.

290ad (15) not much

305ad (16) Turn research off. SEE A SETTLER ARCHER PAIR FROM SALADIN ON OUR ISLAND Ghandi doesn't have much to pillage :( .

320ad (17) Saladin Settlere Kurasan on our island. It doesn't interfere with roads or our ivory trade right now, but probably will when it expands. Pillage a cow pasture in Indian lands.

335ad (18) Killed an Indian archer guarding a horse pasture (>90% success prediction) and then pillaged it. Bombay only has one 2nd level archer in it......On a solo game, I'd take the risk and send the stack to kill it......But I resist and settle for heading to pillage the road to Bombay from the rest of the Indian empire.

350ad (19) Not much

365ad (20) Settler done in Karakorum. Hired 2 scientists for right now to prevent growth - at happy limit. Construction at 19 now, but we're earning less gold and if we can accumulate about 90g, construction should be done in about 3 turns.

NOTES:

We can click on the barb cities and see their city screens. Their best science city with the beaker is making 0 beakers per turn :cry:

The barbs are accumulating beakers towards monotheism, monarchy and calendar but I forgot to check 2 turns in a row to see how fast they're accumulating.




Here is your Session Turn Log from 65 AD to 365 AD:

Turn 171, 65 AD: X-TeamSGOTM5's Axeman (5.50) vs Isabella's Archer (5.10)
Turn 171, 65 AD: Combat Odds: 61.0%
Turn 171, 65 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 171, 65 AD: (Plot Defense: +20%)
Turn 171, 65 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 171, 65 AD: (City Defense: +70%)
Turn 171, 65 AD: (City Attack: -20%)
Turn 171, 65 AD: (Combat: -25%)
Turn 171, 65 AD: X-TeamSGOTM5's Axeman is hit for 19 (81/100HP)
Turn 171, 65 AD: Isabella's Archer is hit for 20 (80/100HP)
Turn 171, 65 AD: Isabella's Archer is hit for 20 (60/100HP)
Turn 171, 65 AD: Isabella's Archer is hit for 20 (40/100HP)
Turn 171, 65 AD: Isabella's Archer is hit for 20 (20/100HP)
Turn 171, 65 AD: X-TeamSGOTM5's Axeman is hit for 19 (62/100HP)
Turn 171, 65 AD: X-TeamSGOTM5's Axeman is hit for 19 (43/100HP)
Turn 171, 65 AD: X-TeamSGOTM5's Axeman is hit for 19 (24/100HP)
Turn 171, 65 AD: X-TeamSGOTM5's Axeman is hit for 19 (5/100HP)
Turn 171, 65 AD: Isabella's Archer is hit for 20 (0/100HP)
Turn 171, 65 AD: X-TeamSGOTM5's Axeman has defeated Isabella's Archer!
Turn 171, 65 AD: X-TeamSGOTM5's Axeman (5.50) vs Isabella's Spearman (3.47)
Turn 171, 65 AD: Combat Odds: 95.5%
Turn 171, 65 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 171, 65 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 171, 65 AD: (Plot Defense: +20%)
Turn 171, 65 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 171, 65 AD: (City Attack: -20%)
Turn 171, 65 AD: (Combat: -50%)
Turn 171, 65 AD: X-TeamSGOTM5's Axeman is hit for 15 (85/100HP)
Turn 171, 65 AD: Isabella's Spearman is hit for 25 (75/100HP)
Turn 171, 65 AD: Isabella's Spearman is hit for 25 (50/100HP)
Turn 171, 65 AD: X-TeamSGOTM5's Axeman is hit for 15 (70/100HP)
Turn 171, 65 AD: X-TeamSGOTM5's Axeman is hit for 15 (55/100HP)
Turn 171, 65 AD: X-TeamSGOTM5's Axeman is hit for 15 (40/100HP)
Turn 171, 65 AD: Isabella's Spearman is hit for 25 (25/100HP)
Turn 171, 65 AD: X-TeamSGOTM5's Axeman is hit for 15 (25/100HP)
Turn 171, 65 AD: Isabella's Spearman is hit for 25 (0/100HP)
Turn 171, 65 AD: X-TeamSGOTM5's Axeman has defeated Isabella's Spearman!
Turn 171, 65 AD: You have captured Seville!!!
Turn 171, 65 AD: You have destroyed the city of Seville!!!

Turn 173, 95 AD: The borders of Beshbalik have expanded!
Turn 173, 95 AD: The villagers have provided you with a map!
Turn 173, 95 AD: The villagers give you gold! You have received 51 gold!

Turn 174, 110 AD: X-TeamSGOTM5's Swordsman (6.60) vs Saladin's Archer (5.70)
Turn 174, 110 AD: Combat Odds: 65.4%
Turn 174, 110 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 174, 110 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 174, 110 AD: (City Defense: +95%)
Turn 174, 110 AD: (City Attack: -30%)
Turn 174, 110 AD: X-TeamSGOTM5's Swordsman is hit for 18 (82/100HP)
Turn 174, 110 AD: X-TeamSGOTM5's Swordsman is hit for 18 (64/100HP)
Turn 174, 110 AD: X-TeamSGOTM5's Swordsman is hit for 18 (46/100HP)
Turn 174, 110 AD: X-TeamSGOTM5's Swordsman is hit for 18 (28/100HP)
Turn 174, 110 AD: X-TeamSGOTM5's Swordsman is hit for 18 (10/100HP)
Turn 174, 110 AD: X-TeamSGOTM5's Swordsman is hit for 18 (0/100HP)
Turn 174, 110 AD: Saladin's Archer has defeated X-TeamSGOTM5's Swordsman!
Turn 174, 110 AD: X-TeamSGOTM5's Swordsman (6.60) vs Saladin's Archer (5.70)
Turn 174, 110 AD: Combat Odds: 65.4%
Turn 174, 110 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 174, 110 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 174, 110 AD: (City Defense: +95%)
Turn 174, 110 AD: (City Attack: -30%)
Turn 174, 110 AD: Saladin's Archer is hit for 21 (79/100HP)
Turn 174, 110 AD: X-TeamSGOTM5's Swordsman is hit for 18 (82/100HP)
Turn 174, 110 AD: Saladin's Archer is hit for 21 (58/100HP)
Turn 174, 110 AD: Saladin's Archer is hit for 21 (37/100HP)
Turn 174, 110 AD: Saladin's Archer is hit for 21 (16/100HP)
Turn 174, 110 AD: X-TeamSGOTM5's Swordsman is hit for 18 (64/100HP)
Turn 174, 110 AD: X-TeamSGOTM5's Swordsman is hit for 18 (46/100HP)
Turn 174, 110 AD: Saladin's Archer is hit for 21 (0/100HP)
Turn 174, 110 AD: X-TeamSGOTM5's Swordsman has defeated Saladin's Archer!
Turn 174, 110 AD: You have captured Najran!!!
Turn 174, 110 AD: You have destroyed the city of Najran!!!
Turn 174, 110 AD: You have made peace with Saladin!

Turn 175, 125 AD: X-TeamSGOTM5's Axeman (5.50) vs Isabella's Spearman (3.20)
Turn 175, 125 AD: Combat Odds: 96.6%
Turn 175, 125 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 175, 125 AD: (Extra Combat: +20%)
Turn 175, 125 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 175, 125 AD: (City Attack: -20%)
Turn 175, 125 AD: (Combat: -50%)
Turn 175, 125 AD: X-TeamSGOTM5's Axeman is hit for 15 (85/100HP)
Turn 175, 125 AD: Isabella's Spearman is hit for 26 (74/100HP)
Turn 175, 125 AD: X-TeamSGOTM5's Axeman is hit for 15 (70/100HP)
Turn 175, 125 AD: X-TeamSGOTM5's Axeman is hit for 15 (55/100HP)
Turn 175, 125 AD: X-TeamSGOTM5's Axeman is hit for 15 (40/100HP)
Turn 175, 125 AD: Isabella's Spearman is hit for 26 (48/100HP)
Turn 175, 125 AD: X-TeamSGOTM5's Axeman is hit for 15 (25/100HP)
Turn 175, 125 AD: Isabella's Spearman is hit for 26 (22/100HP)
Turn 175, 125 AD: X-TeamSGOTM5's Axeman is hit for 15 (10/100HP)
Turn 175, 125 AD: Isabella's Spearman is hit for 26 (0/100HP)
Turn 175, 125 AD: X-TeamSGOTM5's Axeman has defeated Isabella's Spearman!
Turn 175, 125 AD: You have captured Santiago!!!
Turn 175, 125 AD: You have destroyed the city of Santiago!!!
Turn 175, 125 AD: You have made peace with Isabella!

Turn 178, 170 AD: Zoroaster has been born in a far away land!

Turn 182, 230 AD: Tokugawa adopts Organized Religion!

Turn 189, 335 AD: X-TeamSGOTM5's Swordsman (6.60) vs Asoka's Archer (3.75)
Turn 189, 335 AD: Combat Odds: 94.9%
Turn 189, 335 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 189, 335 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 189, 335 AD: X-TeamSGOTM5's Swordsman is hit for 15 (85/100HP)
Turn 189, 335 AD: X-TeamSGOTM5's Swordsman is hit for 15 (70/100HP)
Turn 189, 335 AD: X-TeamSGOTM5's Swordsman is hit for 15 (55/100HP)
Turn 189, 335 AD: X-TeamSGOTM5's Swordsman is hit for 15 (40/100HP)
Turn 189, 335 AD: Asoka's Archer is hit for 26 (74/100HP)
Turn 189, 335 AD: X-TeamSGOTM5's Swordsman is hit for 15 (25/100HP)
Turn 189, 335 AD: Asoka's Archer is hit for 26 (48/100HP)
Turn 189, 335 AD: Asoka's Archer is hit for 26 (22/100HP)
Turn 189, 335 AD: Asoka's Archer is hit for 26 (0/100HP)
Turn 189, 335 AD: X-TeamSGOTM5's Swordsman has defeated Asoka's Archer!
Turn 189, 335 AD: Your Swordsman has destroyed a Archer!
Turn 189, 335 AD: You have plundered 4? from the Pasture!
Turn 189, 335 AD: Merit Ptah has been born in Persepolis!

Turn 190, 350 AD: Ananda has been born in Madrid!

You may wish to copy it to Notepad for reference when you write your turn set post. It includes any entries you added with the in-game Chat facility

Nice going rrau. Pity we didn't win the hut lottery. Oh well.

I think we've discovered a way to make the AI's stop building military units and buildings... Raze some of their cities and they'll pop out settlers!

Looks like we're getting close to the business end of the game here. With construction we can really crank up the war machine big time. We'll need to get right down to business too I think.

I'll be back later today when I've had a chance to have a look at the save. Can't right now!

The barbs are accumulating beakers towards monotheism, monarchy and calendar but I forgot to check 2 turns in a row to see how fast they're accumulating.

You can compare with your most recent auto save and calculate the beakers per turn this way.

So we got the ivory deal :goodjob: . Will look at the save tomorrow - time for :sleep: in Denmark.

:clap: Nice going rrau!! :goodjob:

Some razed cities and peace deals, nearly to Construction, nice!! :rockon:

Roster:
Frederiksberg - UP
Cactus Pete - On Deck
Leif - will he get a motherboard installed before he is up? :please:
Bede
Mad Professor
RRAU - just played! :salute:

EDIT - I like the Ivory deal too! :deal: :cowboy:

Nice going, rrau. Looking good from the bleachers.

When I had to reload the civ4 games, I forgot to change the ini files again, so last autosave was 320ad, 3 turns before.

320ad:

monotheism: 97
monarchy: 72
calendar 120

365ad:

monotheism 181/351 (+28)
monarchy 96/877 (+8)
calendar 150/1023 (+10)

320ad:

monotheism: 97
monarchy: 72
calendar 120

365ad:

monotheism 181/351 (+28)
monarchy 96/877 (+8)
calendar 150/1023 (+10)

I think we'll do just fine not researching ourselves after construction. The barb free beakers are better than we can do ourselves.

We'll just have to watch people who have been free of barb hassle for a while (eg Cyrus right now) to be sure they are not getting too far ahead techwise.

And once Construction is in, we'll need to build both Cats and War Elephants. War Elephants may need to have priority so we can build 5 or 6, perhaps, before we lose the Ivory? War Elephants will give us a significant advantage and we should use that as best and as quickly as we can. :D

Just poking around in the save a little. Isee we found Bangalore. Not on a hill either. We can be down there and burning it down within 5 turns. By the time those 5 turns are done, we can also have the china bridge city established and working on an obelisk.

Actually, just looking around the big continent, we've got about enough forces there to really give someone a serious pain in the butt. Cats will be real handy in some places, particularly aginst Asoka's hill cities, but there are other things we can do over there.

We can get peace (probably) with Asoka in about 5 turns after burning down Bangalore and go hassle someone else, or keep going thumping India without cats. That could be a little expensive in units though.

I guess I'm saying that it seems to me a plan on how to clean up the big continent would be good about now. We're just about in a position to do it, and we have units over there that it would be good to keep working.

The Great Lighthouse in Mecca is attractive, but apart from that, Saladin is someone we can clean up whenever we like really, but it would be good to have some planned direction now for our forces on the big continent.

And once Construction is in, we'll need to build both Cats and War Elephants. War Elephants may need to have priority so we can build 5 or 6, perhaps, before we lose the Ivory? War Elephants will give us a significant advantage and we should use that as best and as quickly as we can. :D

I agree. Once construction is in, quickly push some elephants off the production line while we still have ivory, but let's not delay the cats too long.

Without the save, I can only suggest we look at our cities and figure out where each of these can be produced most efficiently and concentrate on pushing out as many as we need as quickly as we can. :mischief:

This is what I see pressing F1 Leif:

158888

Looks to me like War Elephants in Karakorum and Ning-hsia and Cats in Turfan and Beshbalik? May have to pop-rush some of these things out to get a surge on them. :)

Just a thought into the pot: We talked about going for domination. Does a route to China bring conquest back as a possibility for us to consider?

I think that it does. I will be interested to see what the others think of this.

Night, Night!! :sleep: :sleep: :sleep:

Had a quick look at the save. I can post a plan this evening and play tomorrow evening.

Some initial thoughts. Construction should be researched in about 11 turns - maybe less with the gold we get from capturing Bangalore. After razing Bangalore I suggest we make peace with India. Who's next? Cyrus is our ticket to War Elephants and happyness so I suggest we leave him alone for a while. The same goes for his buddy Asoka who is also backward in development. That leaves Toku and Izzy as immediate targets. We can't eliminate either of them without cats (Gyathaar made sure that most civs have their capitals on hills). So a war where we pillage and raze smaller cities seems like the way forward. I agree that we should try and get some elephants while we have the ivory deal. Do we get a compensation for our hammers invested if the ivory deal is cancelled while building elephants? I dont think so.

We need a workboat for the Chinese bridge city. I'm thinking about waiting some turns to settle this city for two reasons. I want the work boat ready and I want Construction to be done since settling the city will cause a temporary decline in income until it has grown to size 3. By waiting I could also get a worker up there to chop the forests - maybe even chop the forest on the hill before settling for a few extra hammers to Karakorum. This will delay our attack on China by some turns but we don't have any axes yet anyway so maybe it doesn't matter (or do we want to risk landing swords without an axe defender?).

We badly need axes to defend our stacks. It seems we haven't built any for a long time. We should probably think about moving some workers to the continent - they will be useful when we start keeping some of the captured cities.

In a longer perspective we need to capture Susa and secure a monopoly on ivory. This must be done before Cyrus gets Construction. Downside is that capturing Susa would mean loosing the ivory for a number of turns until anarchy is over and first culture expansion has happened. And after that there is still the problem of securing the trade route. We could road through barb country down to Osaka but that still leaves Toku and Izzy controlling the sea route. A road across the continent to the east coast is a possibility but it requires us to build a city on the east coast of the continent. Not easy...

I think we'll do just fine not researching ourselves after construction. The barb free beakers are better than we can do ourselves.

Yes, I think we should stop researching after Construction is discovered. We know what we need to know :hammer: :devil:

We'll just have to watch people who have been free of barb hassle for a while (eg Cyrus right now) to be sure they are not getting too far ahead techwise.

If we can secure the ivory monopoly we should be able to eliminate Cyrus even if he gets longbows. And if we have eliminated or crippled all his trading partners his research speed won't be that high.

That leaves Toku and Izzy as immediate targets. We can't eliminate either of them without cats (Gyathaar made sure that most civs have their capitals on hills). So a war where we pillage and raze smaller cities seems like the way forward. I agree that we should try and get some elephants while we have the ivory deal. Do we get a compensation for our hammers invested if the ivory deal is cancelled while building elephants? I dont think so.
I agree with your analysis and think we should do this until we are ready to hit 'em hard. Can we afford the returning war weariness is the only question that comes to mind? Once we have Construction, then I'm not sure it matters as much.

Cyrus is our ticket to War Elephants and happyness so I suggest we leave him alone for a while. The same goes for his buddy Asoka who is also backward in development. snip...snip

This must be done before Cyrus gets Construction. Downside is that capturing Susa would mean loosing the ivory for a number of turns until anarchy is over and first culture expansion has happened.
This argues for an early strike on Cyrus. Perhaps he should be first once we have sufficient quantities of both War Elephants and Cats. As I can't see the map, would it help us to raze Susa and build our own city next to the Ivory and then build another on the coast to "ship" the Ivory to our home island? That way we don't have to worry about culture at all.

We badly need axes to defend our stacks. It seems we haven't built any for a long time. We should probably think about moving some workers to the continent - they will be useful when we start keeping some of the captured cities.
Will not War Elephants serve the same purpose? :mischief:
And they are a bit better offensively. :trouble:

We need a workboat for the Chinese bridge city. I'm thinking about waiting some turns to settle this city for two reasons. I want the work boat ready and I want Construction to be done since settling the city will cause a temporary decline in income until it has grown to size 3. By waiting I could also get a worker up there to chop the forests - maybe even chop the forest on the hill before settling for a few extra hammers to Karakorum. This will delay our attack on China by some turns but we don't have any axes yet anyway so maybe it doesn't matter (or do we want to risk landing swords without an axe defender?).
I agree with your strategy for developing the city.
I don't think we want to risk Swords without some defense.

I think all of this requires that we decide now between our original goal of domination versus the now available goal of conquest. It seems to me that conquest is the way to go as we know we have access to all the other civs territory. Conquest seems a faster way to go if we're going to stop research and go on a tear. We will not need to build a bunch of cities in order to gain tiles.

Has there been much Barb activity in China? Are we still gaining war weariness from up there? Our initial foray into China still has the goal of forcing peace? I'm trying figure out how high a priority heading for China is?

The barbs near china are just wandering around outside of the towns.

The Barbs have a coastal city and have a trade route with Susa. If the roads between them stay intact, we should be able to get the ivory out that way.....problem is, there probably isn't a sea route for the ivory to get back to us from the barb's coastal city.

[edit] I vote for conquest and raze most of our captures on the big continent. The moneys will help fund our armies.

The barbs near china are just wandering around outside of the towns.
This is good news? Our war weariness with China shouldn't be increasing?

The Barbs have a coastal city and have a trade route with Susa. If the roads between them stay intact, we should be able to get the ivory out that way.....problem is, there probably isn't a sea route for the ivory to get back to us from the barb's coastal city.
:hmm: So, how are we getting it now? There must be an uninterrupted coastal sea route to our ocean bridge city. Is it coming through Izzie or Toku? If it is, we need to careful who we declare on?

Can the road network currently in place support a new city next to the Ivory? :crazyeye:
:scan: :scan: :scan:

This argues for an early strike on Cyrus. Perhaps he should be first once we have sufficient quantities of both War Elephants and Cats. As I can't see the map, would it help us to raze Susa and build our own city next to the Ivory and then build another on the coast to "ship" the Ivory to our home island? That way we don't have to worry about culture at all.


Cultural expansion is not the primary problem as I see it. Building and defending a road across the continent will be very difficult. Civs that we are not at war with could build cities near this road and cut the connection. A sea route will require that we eliminate Toku and Izzy. Maybe it's better to capture Susa and later maybe Delhi and use these cities to build elephants. There are lots of forest near Susa for chopping elephants.

Will not War Elephants serve the same purpose? :mischief:
And they are a bit better offensively. :trouble:

Good point! Let's see if we can get some elephants to put in our stacks.

I think all of this requires that we decide now between our original goal of domination versus the now available goal of conquest. It seems to me that conquest is the way to go as we know we have access to all the other civs territory. Conquest seems a faster way to go if we're going to stop research and go on a tear. We will not need to build a bunch of cities in order to gain tiles.

You may be right. In either case we probably have to play in "conquest style" razing cities and only keeping very few like Susa and Delhi that are attractive because they have strategic resources (ivory) or lot's of potential income (gems). Thus the decision between conquest and domination can come later when we know how tough the Chinese will be to conquer in relation to the time it will take to spam settlers and get domination.

Has there been much Barb activity in China? Are we still gaining war weariness from up there? Our initial foray into China still has the goal of forcing peace? I'm trying figure out how high a priority heading for China is?

During my turn set which is a while ago there was a lot of barb suicide missions in China and later they took Shanghai and lost it again during rrau's turn set. My guess is that we have considerable WW in relation to China.

:hmm: So, how are we getting it now? There must be an uninterrupted coastal sea route to our ocean bridge city. Is it coming through Izzie or Toku? If it is, we need to careful who we declare on?

The route is through Persia and then following a coastal sea route north of the continent. That's why razing Santiago helped.

I won't have time until late tonight to look at the save, but it appears rrau has got us back in business.

Quick thoughts:

We need to road our main island in anticipation of Sal's culture expanding. Even if we are back at war with him, moving through his territory will slow us down.

I certainly agree that we should gear up to rush war elephants, not cats, as soon as we have Construction. A war elephant and an axe -- especially two pairs -- should be able to weaken Sal while we prepare a large invasion force of primarily cats and swords. Moreover, Cyrus can cancel our deal or someone can settle and block our trading route. We will want to get those war elephants produced ASAP.

"Do we get a compensation for our hammers invested if the ivory deal is cancelled while building elephants? I dont think so.""

If ivory is cancelled, our production of WE's will be stopped until we regain access to ivory, but the hammers invested will be retained. I'm not sure for how long or how quickly, if at all, they will deteriorate, but they are not simply lost immediately.

If we go for Conquest, how do we get to Greece?

If we go for Domination, we could keep Cyrus as a friend the rest of the game.

Thinking make peace with India and prepare to invade Arabia, but there's not much discussion of that. Tell me why not?

If we go for Domination, we could keep Cyrus as a friend the rest of the game.


We migth unless he will manage to grab too much land on the continent.

Thinking make peace with India and prepare to invade Arabia, but there's not much discussion of that. Tell me why not?

We have a sizeable army on the continent that we should use for something. As I see it we have 3 battlefields we should consider:

#1 The continent where I see Toku and Izzy as next on the war list even if it's only a war of pillaging and city razing. Toku may be the best bet since WW with him has probably declined. The barbs are also positioned to attack Japan.
#2 Arabia. We want to capture Mecca and destroy the arab civ. Elephants and cats should probably be heading down there.
#3 China. There is a small city on the western part of the Chinese island that we could probably raze with a small force. This might bring China to accept peace.

The diificult question is how to prioritize these wars and find the best timing of the attacks so that we keep the other civs backward in development and at the same time have manageable WW. It will be a while before we have elephants and cats and a route to China so in my turn set emphasis will naturally be on battlefield #1 while the preparations for the other wars wil also be ongoing.

"#1 The continent where I see Toku and Izzy as next on the war list even if it's only a war of pillaging and city razing. Toku may be the best bet since WW with him has probably declined. The barbs are also positioned to attack Japan."

After getting peace with India, does your plan against Japan exclude cats and war elephants? I'm inclined to go against Arabia as soon as we have those.

"#1 The continent where I see Toku and Izzy as next on the war list even if it's only a war of pillaging and city razing. Toku may be the best bet since WW with him has probably declined. The barbs are also positioned to attack Japan."

After getting peace with India, does you plan against Japan exclude cats and war elephants? I'm inclined to go against Arabia as soon as we have those.

I don't really have a plan yet - more a thought of using the existing army to slow down our opponents and maybe earn their pay pillaging and razing cities. It requires that WW is controllable so that we gain more than we loose. I will try to make a more detailed war plan tonight and ideas are appreciated. First step is clear though: Move our advanced stack to Bangalore, raze it and sue for peace with Asoka. After that everything is up in the air...

And as I stated earlier cats and elephants will only be available at the very end of my turn set so I can't do more than prepare for war against Arabia.

I am wondering what the war weariness situation will be like if we have some sort of peace with everyone except China? If gaining that peace results in enough of a war weariness reduction, then perhaps we should remain at peace for this turn set and focus on setting up for the coming battles. That means getting to Construction as quickly as possible, building pop in our cities to the limit to facilitate pop-rushing War Elephants and perhaps some Cats and positioning and healing our troops and Galleys to be ready to attack our intended victims?

I think I am hearing that Arabia first is the preferred way to go using 3 or 4 War Elephants, a few Swords and a couple of Cats? Or do we need a larger force? This force could begin the work on Arabia while we build more Cats to take to the main island.

If war weariness is still a big problem after the peace treaties on the big island, then I'm not sure what course to follow? :crazyeye:

I am wondering what the war weariness situation will be like if we have some sort of peace with everyone except China? If gaining that peace results in enough of a war weariness reduction, then perhaps we should remain at peace for this turn set and focus on setting up for the coming battles. Once peace with India is negotiated, there are likely be considerable turns elapsing before we'd be in a position to attack someone on the big island again. Don't think we'd want to hold off fighting very long if there is much to be gained. That means getting to Construction as quickly as possible, building pop in our cities to the limit to facilitate pop-rushing War Elephants and perhaps some Cats and positioning and healing our troops and Galleys to be ready to attack our intended victims?

I think I am hearing that Arabia first is the preferred way to go using 3 or 4 War Elephants, a few Swords and a couple of Cats? Or do we need a larger force? This force could begin the work on Arabia while we build more Cats to take to the main island. Arabia may require many units. At least we should prepare for that case. We can't atttack prematurely, and we can't stop until we can hold Mecca.

If war weariness is still a big problem after the peace treaties on the big island, then I'm not sure what course to follow? :crazyeye:

I think WW will be manageable initially, especially since we will probably be pop rushing WE's with two citizens. How fast it will mount is unclear, and thus it's unclear what to do with the big-island units while fighting Sal. If we go after, say, Japan, how much WW can we have and still be able to produce units as needed. On the other hand, hate to have those units idle. Frederiksberg may have a tricky turn set judging, and preparing for, the best order and timing of things that will occur after he's done. We need to at least consider the possibility of bringing some of the big-island units back for the Arabian campaign.

City management:

Karakorum: Work boat, Axe, elephant
Turfan: Swordsman, axe, elephant
Ning-hsia: Swordsman, axe, elephant
Beshbalik: Swordsman, cat (or elephant)
Old Sarai: Galley
Chinese Bridge City: Obelisk, work boat

I don't think Old Sarai should build barracks since it has very low production. An alternative to building galley would be building lighthouse or archer for MP duty.


Battlefield #2:
We already have 4 swordsmen and a spear on our home island. With the above build order we would have 7 swords, 3 axes, 1 spear, 3 elephants and a cat for the attack on Arabia around the end of my turn set and that is probably a conservative estimate. Using pop rushing this army is probably ready after 15-17 turns so the first wave of 8 units could land in Arabia at the very end of the turn set.

Battlefield #1
On the big continent we have 6 swords, 6 axes, 1 spear and 1 charriot. Some of these units could be sent back to our home island if we don't need them on the continent. It would be particularly easy to ship home the axe and the sword that are adjacent to a galley right now. The galleys should probably return home and be ready for the Arabian invasion. Now first priority is to move the stack of 2 swords, 4 axes and a chariot to Bangalore and attack (5 turns). After that we can hopefully get a peace deal with Asoka. Then what? It's tempting to go after Spain since our other forces (4 swords, 1 axe, 1 spear) are close to the western most newly founded Spanish city. And after taking Bangalore it's only a 3 turn journey to Cordoba. If we go after Toku our western most forces have a long journey and will probably not catch up before it's too late. We don't want any long wars I think. We could of course bring them back home. Spain looks more powerful than Japan so it's tempting to raze a couple of their cities and maybe even head for Barcelona if things go well. Timing wise we could attack the new Spanish city and Cordoba after 11-12 turns when Construction is in the bag. This means that any additional WW will at least not harm our efforts to get this tech ASAP. And as CP says we will probably want to whip those elephants thus reducing the pop in our cities.

Battlefield #3
I expect to found the Chinese bridge city 8 turns from now when the work boat arrives at the fish and the worker has chopped the tile where we want to settle. Then chop obelisk in 5 and expand in 15 meaning that the passage to China will be open 28 turns from now. That should be after the Arabian campaign has started.

Science: Research is stopped after Construction is discovered around 11 turns from now. I'm thinking about selecting Monarchy as next tech (we always get one beaker + any barb beakers).

Worker actions: Build road down to SW corner of our home island in safe distance to Arab culture. Build some cottages on the river banks of our cities.

@rrau: I think you did very well on the strategic level in your turn set, identifying Santiago as the trade blocker and eliminating this problem thus getting an essential trade with Cyrus. I would like to offer you a couple of ideas for city management that I think would take your game to a higher level - hope it's OK :) . The cottages we want to build are best placed on the river banks because these tiles already give one gpt. This means that when the city start working these cottages we will continue throughout the rest of the game to get one extra gpt compared to a cottage on ordinary grassland. The same reasoning is behind placing cottages on dye that we don't expect to be able to utilize for plantations in this particular game. It seems like a small thing but with several cottages it could amount to having an extra tech after 100 turns. Many people under estimate this stuff but it all adds up. One of the scientists in Karakorum can be removed and instead work a 2 food 3 gold tile. I think this tile is too good not to be worked and a general rule is that you should always work your best tiles even if it means that the city grows into unhappiness. The angry citizen can be handled by whipping for 2 pop thus creating an extra angry face but also removing two pop. Almost always whip 2 pop or more. This strategy can be mixed with halting growth the "natural" way by building workers or settlers. Never try to stop growth by not working you best tiles!! One final idea: Be ready to improve your cities immediately when they are founded. Have workers or work boats ready the instant the city is founded so that it can grow quickly and start paying it's maintenance cost. Having the work boat ready for the Chinese bridge city means that it can grow to size 2 in 7 turns! Hope you can use these ideas - I will almost guarantee that they can help your game more than you think.

I admit, micromanaging isn't my best option. I did whip swords as needed when unhappiness got too bad. The main reason I hired the 2 scientists was to increase research towards construction.

In Ning-Hsia, I thought about cottaging the river jungle tile, but then I also thought maybe it should be irrigated instead for better growth to whip units out of it.

Motherboard installed and functional! :D

Plan sounds good Frederiksberg. I'll try to spend some more time looking things over tomorrow as I just got back up and running and it is late.

Wow! Just looked at the save. This is not the same game I was playing. MP and rrau have improved our situation immensely.

We need to raze Bombay right away. It apparently has only one archer and a chariot defending and is only 20% culture. This a 2 unit sacrifice at most (our swordsman just to the southeast being in line for a glorious death), and the gold may well allow us to get to Construction in about 4 turns thereafter. We should not negotiate with Asoka, however, until we've moved on Bangalore as well.

In fact, moving some units in that direction while others approach Bombay seems wise. After Bangalore, peace with India, but not before we move units through foreign territory to prepare to try our hand at helping the barbs take Japanese cities (other than the capital on a hill). Since our finances don't allow us yet to hold distant cities, we need to operate where the barbs can, hopefully, cooperate with us and possess our conquests. In effect we will move west to east, making reinforcement progressively easier. Like to see how that goes before committing to either Domination or Conquest. How opening a Japanese front will best time out with our Arab invasion remains to be determined.

City management:

Karakorum: Work boat, Axe, elephant
Turfan: Swordsman, axe, elephant
Ning-hsia: Swordsman, axe, elephant
Beshbalik: Swordsman, cat (or elephant)
Old Sarai: Galley
Chinese Bridge City: Obelisk, work boat

By taking Bombay, I think we'll be producing WE's and cats a unit earlier in some instances, but tentatively this looks right.

I don't think Old Sarai should build barracks since it has very low production. An alternative to building galley would be building lighthouse or archer for MP duty.

No lighthouse -- by the time we get to size 4, we'll want to pop rush. An archer makes sense, as it will free the spear. Also, would consider a galley to be pop rushed in time, because you can't have enough on a map like this; plus, we may lose one to Sal.

Battlefield #2:
We already have 4 swordsmen and a spear on our home island. With the above build order we would have 7 swords, 3 axes, 1 spear, 3 elephants and a cat for the attack on Arabia around the end of my turn set and that is probably a conservative estimate. Using pop rushing this army is probably ready after 15-17 turns so the first wave of 8 units could land in Arabia at the very end of the turn set.

Hope this means you've calculated how to get four galleys in position and loaded by then (even sooner?).

Battlefield #1
On the big continent we have 6 swords, 6 axes, 1 spear and 1 charriot. Some of these units could be sent back to our home island if we don't need them on the continent. It would be particularly easy to ship home the axe and the sword that are adjacent to a galley right now.

Let's do it.

The galleys should probably return home and be ready for the Arabian invasion. Now first priority is to move the stack of 2 swords, 4 axes and a chariot to Bangalore and attack (5 turns).

Strongly urge otherwise -- see above.

After that we can hopefully get a peace deal with Asoka. Then what? It's tempting to go after Spain since our other forces (4 swords, 1 axe, 1 spear) are close to the western most newly founded Spanish city. And after taking Bangalore it's only a 3 turn journey to Cordoba. If we go after Toku our western most forces have a long journey and will probably not catch up before it's too late. We don't want any long wars I think. We could of course bring them back home. Spain looks more powerful than Japan so it's tempting to raze a couple of their cities and maybe even head for Barcelona if things go well. Timing wise we could attack the new Spanish city and Cordoba after 11-12 turns when Construction is in the bag.

Agree that Construction should be in the bag before we go after either Japan or Spain. From Bangalore, we are as close to Japanese cities as Spanish. It looks from the culture that one is almost adjacent.

This means that any additional WW will at least not harm our efforts to get this tech ASAP. And as CP says we will probably want to whip those elephants thus reducing the pop in our cities.

Battlefield #3
I expect to found the Chinese bridge city 8 turns from now when the work boat arrives at the fish and the worker has chopped the tile where we want to settle. Then chop obelisk in 5 and expand in 15 meaning that the passage to China will be open 28 turns from now. That should be after the Arabian campaign has started.

Science: Research is stopped after Construction is discovered around 11 turns from now. I'm thinking about selecting Monarchy as next tech (we always get one beaker + any barb beakers).

Predicting beginning Monarchy in about 8, if we have use of gold from Bombay. If it looks like this is so, then the second build in several cities should be quick ones -- perhaps a chariot or archer to free the OS spear, or even a scout for sacrifice.

Worker actions: Build road down to SW corner of our home island in safe distance to Arab culture. Build some cottages on the river banks of our cities.

Like that. We should get on the roads immediately.

@rrau: I think you did very well on the strategic level in your turn set, identifying Santiago as the trade blocker and eliminating this problem thus getting an essential trade with Cyrus.

What he said.

We can trade Cyrus gold for silk. We neither gain nor lose, but keep others from the benefits from trade.

When Murcia expands, the road being built on the sugar will be useless.

I like your plan Frederiksberg. CP's addition of taking out Bombay appeals to me as well though. We wouldn't need the entire big stack near Delhi to take out Bangalore, so a couple of units could go to the aid of the sword and spear currently near Bombay and wipe it off the map while most of the stack heads straight to Bangalore. The really great thing I like about this (as CP points out) is that it will give us extra cash and possibly get us Construction earlier.

I like the idea of continuing war in some form on the big continent. I was thinking Izzy rather than Tokugawa, but Toku is nearly as good ;) I don't really care.

We need to raze Bombay right away. It apparently has only one archer and a chariot defending and is only 20% culture. This a 2 unit sacrifice at most (our swordsman just to the southeast being in line for a glorious death), and the gold may well allow us to get to Construction in about 4 turns