I don't like the CD3 archer in Guangzhou - what are the odds for our swords/WE's? Can't look at the save right now and check myself. Anyway we may have to abort the attack here and move on to Xian.
Gangzhou has a +40 for cultural defense. The only good chance is the CBT2 promored WE which has a 65.2% chance. The CBT1 WE is at 56.9% and the Sword is at 20.7, due to the river crossing, among other things.

I'm reluctant to let it pass as there is a Settler in the city. We have a couple of turns to play with so if we bombard the cultural defense a bit, the chance of success should increase fairly well.

The other side of the coin is that if we move on to Xian, the Settler founds a city and his forces must split to cover both the new city and Ghangzhou, so going for Xian and Beijing first would work imho.

Watch that stack of Izzie's near Tyre and good luck! :thumbsup:

Had a look at the save and the situation at Guangzhou. I'm not too happy about the odds and we still don't know how many units we will be facing in Beijing. We could loose several units trying to capture the city so I think I would prefer the cautious approach and skip this city for now. It will take some time to bomb down the defenses - I think they go down by 10% per turn using both cats. Would it make sense to leave a cat behind that could bomb down the defenses and prevent the settler from leaving. Then we could come back later and finish off the city...

Watch that stack of Izzie's near Tyre and good luck!

Yes better start moving those axes south to help protect Madrid and maybe also the other stack. Remember that Izzy can use the roads in neutral territory. The WE's could probably leave Barcelona now and then you could whip an archer as the very first thing you build there. Need to mobilize as fast as possible.

The workers on the hill outside Madrid should move to the silk tile outside Barcelona ASAP. We are already running a little late since Barcelona will have expanded 4 turns from now. The worker in the jungle north of Salamanca might as well stop chopping - there is absolutely no need to clear this jungle now and the worker turns are better spent building plantations.

Would it make sense to leave a cat behind that could bomb down the defenses and prevent the settler from leaving. Then we could come back later and finish off the city...
I think we'll need all the Cats at Beijing as the city will likely have quite a bit of culture with the wonders built there! Let's skip Gangzhou for the moment and, once the Settler draws off an Archer, we can come back and get it or send some follow up from home. :yup: :cowboy: :trouble:

Frederiksberg and Leif have some good advice.

Regarding Guangzhou, 50 and 60 percent battles was not what I had in mind when I proposed stopping off at these cities. The only problem I see in leaving it is that the settler will settle straight away somewhere. That's not such a bad idea though - it will take at least one archer with it, and maybe two. And where's he going to settle? On the ice? Good riddance. Let him have his block of ice... Of course, he might resettle the Xian site after that is burned, which would a nuisance. Anyhow, I'm cautious about losing two or three units at Guanzhou - I'd rather just kill the spear in Xian and burn that and get right on to Beijing. We must get Beijing before accepting peace with Qin Shi.

Edit: Actually, there's a galley in Guanzhou. What odds on the settler and an archer getting into a galley and heading west along the coast once our galleys go past...? He already got a city up in the ice on that west coast.

We must get Beijing before accepting peace with Qin Shi.
I agree we need Beijing right away. I'm not so sure we need peace quite so quickly.

There must be 3 or 4 cities on the other side of Beijing and I think we need to see if they are as poorly defended as what we have seen thus far. If so, the time to go for them is now, as long as we have forces to do so. Should we get clobbered at Beijing, this is a lot of hot air. If we don't lose much, then I think we ought to consider continuing for as long as we can.

The only other factor might be if we need the forces to backdoor Cyrus. But I'm not sure I like leaving a city up north, pretty far from our home base and reinforcements should Qin decide to eat our lunch. :rolleyes:

Edit: Actually, there's a galley in Guanzhou. What odds on the settler and an archer getting into a galley and heading west along the coast once our galleys go past...? He already got a city up in the ice on that west coast.
Probably will!! We'll pay him a visit sooner or later... :mischief:

I agree we need Beijing right away. I'm not so sure we need peace quite so quickly.

Unless WW becomes prohibitive it would be nice to eliminate Qin now.

There must be 3 or 4 cities on the other side of Beijing and I think we need to see if they are as poorly defended as what we have seen thus far. If so, the time to go for them is now, as long as we have forces to do so. Should we get clobbered at Beijing, this is a lot of hot air. If we don't lose much, then I think we ought to consider continuing for as long as we can.

If you call up Qin you will notice that he has 6 cities + Beijing. Guangzhou, Xian and Macau on the Chinese island, Tianjin on the continent, a city on the ice to the NW of the Chinese island and judging from the cultural borders a city just south of the copper tile on the east coast of the Chinese island.

Well you will get your chance to clobber Qin. Even after the fall of Xian and the capture of Beijing his peace offer is derisory. So the galleys are loaded up again and heading around to the Christian Holy City in the desert to the east

<Qin on the Ropes> (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm5/Xteam_SG005_AD1190_01.Civ4SavedGame)

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a371/doconor/SGOTM5/Civ4ScreenShot0022.jpg

Tactically the whole Chinese adventure was a lark. Bypassed Guangzhou and moved on Xian, down it went without any casualties to the Mongol forces. Reloaded the galleys and headed off to Beijing, landing on the hill to the south and three rounds of bombardment and a sword assault later rolled into town on catapult wheels, no casualties.

And here is what we won

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a371/doconor/SGOTM5/Civ4ScreenShot0017-1.jpg

Qin still won't talk reasonably.

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a371/doconor/SGOTM5/Civ4ScreenShot0020.jpg

In the west I built a ferry service from Arabia to the home island and from the home island to the bridge island. Isabella has planted a town on the island NW of the bridge island and had put blockers on the roads across the hills on the bridge island. Her axes and archers killed two catapults who walked right into them (shades of leif's galley sinking).

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a371/doconor/SGOTM5/Civ4ScreenShot0011.jpg

Finished them off with a War Elephant coming along behind.

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a371/doconor/SGOTM5/Civ4ScreenShot0015-1.jpg

Looks like we need to leave pickets on those hills.

The ferry service runs from Mecca to the southernmost tip of our island, the troops walk up the roads to meet the boat in the strait between us and Persia, then into the Persian town and across the road network to the western end of the island, where there will soon be a galley to meet them for the trip to the continent.


The most interesting action was on the big continent. Isabella waltzed her troops right past Madrid and captured Osaka from the barbarians. I had tried to assess the situation and thought the two archers and two axes in the town could hold off the Spanish invaders so I sent no reinforcements to help. Not a good choice on my part I am afraid.

I trained a Keshik in Madrid and sent him off to reconnoiter Persia. Most of the towns he visited are defended no better than this, the capitol

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a371/doconor/SGOTM5/Civ4ScreenShot0024.jpg

and most are worse, like this one

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a371/doconor/SGOTM5/Civ4ScreenShot0021.jpg

That is the continental expedition force, all healed up but making like Balaam's ass - Persia or India, Persia or India, so many choices....

There are still a couple of towns in far north to investigate, but so far the Keshik has seen no signs of any Persian military might, though I suppose they could be hiding in the jungle, but a peek at the graph shows us well ahead of Cyrus.

Borders expanded and luxuries and Hereditary Rule all came on line, and we got a nice peace dividend from the Japanese, so the towns are all set for maximum growth except in old Spain where we have some homeland whiners.

The workers at home and in Arabia have pretty much run out of things to do and disbanding some or all of them will help with the unit costs.

There are some hard choices coming up. We have a significant deficit even at 0% science allocation and it is not going to get much better soon. The capture of Beijing, even with the Colussus kicker in any town that could work the coastal tiles without sacrificing growth or production added about -15gpt to the deficit. Building wealth and using the whip for production could alleviate some of those problems and getting CoL from Qin in a peace deal would also help, though it would cost a few production cycles to get those courthouses built. For that reason alone I think a Domination run is a non-starter.

I have half a mind to go after Cyrus, now, but wait until War Elephants have been whipped everywhere with a barracks and the Keshik has finished his recon. Then suck it up and go after him, starting with Tyre and working west then north across his lands laying waste to all of it.

The war with Spain could end right now, though we would get no goodies in the deal, Qin still needs a beating to give up Code of Laws.

Nice work Bede. Qin is being unreasonable isn't he? We're WAY more powerful than he, and have cpatured his capital and burnt down another city, and he's being arrogant? Easy fixed. We have a big army. Let's use it.


The most interesting action was on the big continent. Isabella waltzed her troops right past Madrid and captured Osaka from the barbarians. I had tried to assess the situation and thought the two archers and two axes in the town could hold off the Spanish invaders so I sent no reinforcements to help. Not a good choice on my part I am afraid.

Interesting, that. Part of not being used to being teamed with the barbs I guess. I would have expected her to be more interested in Barcelona or Madrid than Osaka, but she's obviously not that discriminating, and Mongolia looks exactly like barbarians and visa versa for her.


I trained a Keshik in Madrid and sent him off to reconnoiter Persia. Most of the towns he visited are defended no better than this, the capitol

I am pleasantly surprised by the wekaness of the Persian defenses. We should take advantage of that ASAP before it changes. Not something to be undertaken without a little thought first though as longbows can prove to be a nuiscance.


There are some hard choices coming up. We have a significant deficit even at 0% science allocation and it is not going to get much better soon. The capture of Beijing, even with the Colussus kicker in any town that could work the coastal tiles without sacrificing growth or production added about -15gpt to the deficit. Building wealth and using the whip for production could alleviate some of those problems and getting CoL from Qin in a peace deal would also help, though it would cost a few production cycles to get those courthouses built. For that reason alone I think a Domination run is a non-starter.

Our army is big, and we obviously just went over a threshold for the "number of cities" maintenace in each city. Let's use the army well. It's the only way out of the bind.


The war with Spain could end right now, though we would get no goodies in the deal, Qin still needs a beating to give up Code of Laws.

Then let's keep beating him. Mucho presto.

Just had a quick look around the file. We could get more cash if we were willing to sacrifice a little growth and hammers - where are our priorities on this? We're not actually using very many of those sea tiles that the collossus is getting us extra cash for. Ning-hsia could stop using a couple of cottages and use coastal tiles for a net cash gain without any food loss, and if we were willing to sacrifice food, stop using a farm and use a coastal tile for -1 food +2 gold. Several examples of this. It would be good to hear peoples' opinions on what our gold vs hammers vs food priorities are now...?

Nice stack gathered on the Persian border. Well done. Let's use it. Either against India or Persia and soon. It's costing us money while doing nothing. We can't afford to do that from now I don't think with the economy like it is. Let's make the troops earn their pay!

Regarding war on China - it would be good to have some discussion here. Chengdu will fall in two or three turns. What then? Everyone on the galleys and head for the big continent? Or some troops deal with Guanzhou and the other Chinese city on the west coast in the ice?

More generally: I think we are getting very close to a decision on domination or conquest. I think from now on we need to know which.

:hatsoff: Sounds good to me Brother Bede. Nice work! :goodjob:

I need to have a look at the save, but it seems like we have some options to choose from. :thumbsup:
Beijing looks kind of nice. And I like what I see in Persia so far! :mischief:

Roster:
Mad Professor - UP
RRAU - On Deck
Frederiksberg
Cactus Pete
Leif
Bede - just played!! :rockon:

EDIT - Started to look but can't keep my eyes open. From what I saw, I think we're ready to attack Cyrus, although I am thinking that Susa should be our first objective, to deny Ivory to Cyrus. More tomorrow, time for :sleep: :sleep: :sleep:

I have a copy of the save file, but I'm not in a hurry to play until there's been a bit of discussion about a few general things like:

Economy: should we be emphaising gold more at the expense of food and hammers, or not?

China: Head for the big continent after taking Chengdu, or mop up on the Chinese island?

Big continent: I think we should be pushing more war soon - we've a nice stack there doing nothing. Persia or India. Straight away, or a short delay for some reason?

Victory type: I would feel more comfortable if we decided on domination or conquest, though if we can come up with a plan for my turn set where it doesn't matter which, that would be OK. It doesn't hurt to revisit the topic again now I think.

Finally had a chance to peruse the save and read the recent posts. Don't have as comprehensive a vision as I'd like, but here are my thoughts and concerns (not prioritized):

What happened to the Chinese chariot?

Not at all sure we ought to be researching MC. I don't foresee having time to build forges. Currency, Feudalism, CoL, even Drama all seem more worthwhile to me.

Believe science should be at 0%, regardless.

Reluctant to abandon Domination. The map is filling in with cities, so the number of settlers that we might need to spam has diminished, assuming we take a group of cities late and expand them rapidly along with the ones we might settle. Moreover, while that group of captured and settled cities is expanding, we could continue to take and raze the remaining cities in order to keep our economy going.

We could expand cities in three or four turns, which might mean we'd only need a few hundred gold in the treasury. If we can acquire Currency, Feudalism, and CoL, I see Domination as more feasible now than when I was considering it at the end of my turn. We do need to get our existing cities producing more gold per turn.

Also reluctant to disband workers, as they may all be needed to help chop a few key courthouses if we go Domination. There are a number of cities (including some we don't yet hold) with several forests remaining.

The two big Chinese coastal cities have lighthouses and are relativley close to our capital, so we may want to keep them.

The China island would be the first priority for spam settlers, as there are several expanded city sites there, it is convenient, slightly less costly than the big island, and we should have eliminated any potential AI troublermakers there.

Agree we need to find where Cyrus's forces are staging. I'm inclined to attack him before India if a good plan can be worked out. Susa first, of course, but the real question is whether there is a group of cities that we could take and hold fairly quickly that would not be overwhelmed by Persian culture, would largely pay for themselves and give us back our resources we were getting in trade, and, of course, would bring Cyrus to the negotiating table in a giving mood. Hope this is looked at thoroughly before another turn goes by. Really not sure that there is a good way to do it. I don't think we want to go against any more longbows or WE's than we have to. They will reduce our forces.

In only 5 turns anarchy ends in the Chinese capital, and the city will then lose a productive citizen each turn, unless we create a route there for our resources. This could be done by taking Ghangzhou or finding the route from China to Persia.

We need to optimize growth in our cities -- in particular, Karakorum, Turfan (and get the dye improved), Madrid, and Mecca. Growth first (about two citizens in most cities), before much greater emphasis on gold production, to answer MP's query, would be my thinking.

A Persian strategy (thinking, taking best, most useful cities, and getting a peace that might well be permanent if we go for Domination), or lack of a good one being available, would seem an important consideration in how much fighting we do before negotiating with Qin. If we want to go after Cyrus soon, then we may want to cut the China campaign off after getting CoL. If not, then we may want to wipe him off his island.

Looks like we are in good shape to continue our Chinese campaign and maybe start one on the continent.

Our army is big, and we obviously just went over a threshold for the "number of cities" maintenace in each city. Let's use the army well. It's the only way out of the bind.

Another reason for the decline in the economy is that the whip has been used quite a lot. It's important that we are more careful about where we use the whip. In Beshbalik it's not a good idea to pop rush units because it has little food surplus and no granary. Right now I think we should stop working the gold there and work the grassland farm until the city has regrown to size 3. Then we can go back to working the gold. A similar approach can be applied in many other cities like CP says: First we emphasize pop growth and after a while we emphasize gold. Some cities are not even using their most productive tiles right now so I suggest that MP goes through the city list and do some MM'ing using the general principle stated above. Might be and idea though to hire a citizen specialist in the iron city to speed the lighthouse and get a border expansion that will make more coast tiles available. This goes against the general principle but I think we need more workable tiles there.

Ning-hsia could stop using a couple of cottages and use coastal tiles for a net cash gain without any food loss, and if we were willing to sacrifice food, stop using a farm and use a coastal tile for -1 food +2 gold. Several examples of this.

I think we should stop building and working cottages. They will not mature in the time frame of this game so it's much better to work coastal tiles for instant 3 gpt (Or other tiles that yield 2gpt or more).

Cities we can capture early and keep:

Kagoshima, Osaka, Delhi, Libyan, Susa, the persian city with gems in the NW corner. Maybe more?

Eliminating all chinese cities except Tinjian on the continent seems right to me. Then we don't need to come back to the Chinese island again except for settler spamming if we decide to go for domination.

I don't know if it's feasible to try and capture Susa and the gem city from Cyrus. Gem city might be too far away. @Bede: Do you know what the garrison is in Susa? And in the gem city?

Garrisons in any Persian city are no more than what you see in Persepolis, at most two longbows and a spear. I have not explored the northern towns yet.

I don't think taking and holding any more cities is in the cards. At Madrid IIRC the shrine income is consumed by the maintenance bills, for example.

One other option is to go on a building spree everywhere but the continent - train reinforcements there - just to hold down the Dept of Bilateral Aggression costs.

We don't have the cushion to be researching anything, really.

Qin's chariot was one of those now you see him, now you don't phenomenon.

While waiting for the Keshik to find Cyrus' army we could go on a tear across India.

I think that part of the problem here is that some of us do not really understand what a domination victory would look like? :hmm: We can see the mounting maintenance costs and the lack of income and wonder how it will be possible to support all the cities necessary to achieving such a victory? And how many Settlers would be required and how we will get them where we need them before the AI Civs resettle the areas we clean out.

Is there a way to help us by talking a bit more about how we might achieve this and how we overcome the obstacle of finances?

EDIT - It seems that our primary income will be from taking enemy cities? It follows that the more cities we take, the more income we'll get. That may not add up to the fastest victory however. I also see no reason to set research to 10%, should be 0%. End Edit. :D

Back to the game, it looks like the city of Sidon certainly must go! Zaragosa, when it grows, will block all access to the continent for both our Galleys and our trade network, so it seems it must go as well.

Chengdu is another Holy City without a shrine, so can probably be razed.

I'll need to have another look at the map to see if we can create the situation CP talks about with an enclave of former Persian cities relatively free from Persian cultural influence.

I don't think taking and holding any more cities is in the cards. At Madrid IIRC the shrine income is consumed by the maintenance bills, for example.

The idea with capturing and keeping some cities is not to improve the economy but to claim more land and resources (fur, ivory, gems) and leave a door open for domination victory. If they can pay their maintenance cost it's good enough because we also get some production capacity and some forests for chopping. Producing military units locally can vastly speed up the victory whether we go for domination or conquest. Remember that we want this game to end soon and domination might be the faster way.

The idea with capturing and keeping some cities is not to improve the economy but to claim more land and resources (fur, ivory, gems) and leave a door open for domination victory. If they can pay their maintenance cost it's good enough because we also get some production capacity and some forests for chopping. Producing military units locally can vastly speed up the victory whether we go for domination or conquest. Remember that we want this game to end soon and domination might be the faster way.

I agree that domination will be faster if we can do it. However I echo Leif's comment about a rundown on just how we might achieve that though because with Bede, my eyes are oggling at maintenance costs. We're not even close to the land threshold for domination yet. Not even vaguely close. The Madrid maintenance Bede talks about is a good example. The quite nice shrine is only barely paying costs. Building a heap of courthouses sounds hard and only minimally beneficial since we'd want to end the game not so many turns after we cold get them up and running. It doesn't sound feasable to me. We really only want CoL to get caste system so we can hire artists and pop out culture boundaries faster.

So... How is it done? I imagine the way to do it would be to whip, produce, otherwise rush a bunch of settlers and accompanying military protection, move/sail them to the various locations we want, and get them ready to go just as we embark on a blitzkrieg keeping captured cities at a pace fast enough for the plunder to pay the awful maintenance and a few turns before the blitzkrieg ends, plant all the cities from the settlers, and hire a specialist (artist if we have CoL because it will be faster) to expand their cultures, which will take us over the domination limit...?

While it's not hard to figure that out, I remain skeptical about the numbers. Maintenance will get phenominally high - we're already losing 40+gpt now Capture and keep a bunch of cities and plant a heap more and those last few turns will have us going down the tube at hundreds per turn I would think...? Or am I missing something...?

I think that part of the problem here is that some of us do not really understand what a domination victory would look like? :hmm: We can see the mounting maintenance costs and the lack of income and wonder how it will be possible to support all the cities necessary to achieving such a victory? And how many Settlers would be required and how we will get them where we need them before the AI Civs resettle the areas we clean out.

Is there a way to help us by talking a bit more about how we might achieve this and how we overcome the obstacle of finances?

I made a rough estimate a while ago saying that we need to fill all of Arabia and China with cities and a little more than half of the continent must be within our cultural borders to achieve the needed 64% land. As a rough guideline an expanded city with 21 land tiles covers 2% land. Not all cities can be placed so that they have only land tiles in the fat cross. We could start by capturing some of the cities that can more or less pay their maintenance and then we calculate the needed number of extra cities as (64%-Current land %)/2%. Then we know how many cities we need to capture/settle in the very short end phase of the game (10-15 turns). Let's make an example: Say that we capture some of the cities mentioned in my list in the previous post and after that we have 30% land together with the barbs. Then we need 34%/2%=17 cities. Then we send stacks to capture 5 cities and build 12 settlers to claim the remaining land. We only have to pay maintenance for these cities for the 8 turns it takes to expand to fat cross (3 turns if we have Caste System) and we have the option of disbanding a lot of units at that time.

Note that the AI can't settle Arabia and China because they have no access (In principle Cyrus can as long as he has open borders with us.).

Just took a quick look at the save again. We are currently at 18% of land area out of the 64% needed. That means we currently need 23 cities. If we go the domination route, can we not forgo attacking Cyrus and finish off Izzie, Asoka and Qin and spam their areas?

It looks to me as though we pretty much have the room we need. The number of settlers would decrease by taking the Indian and remaining Spanish cities?

It will be close but perhaps we should reconsider and head for domination.

If we begin to get into the red, we can always go take a city or two? The game will decrease our military first? Will it take away cities?

It's still unclear to me if domination or conquest is the faster solution so I would rather follow a path where we keep both options open - that is, we first capture some of the cities we want to keep anyway. As I mentioned earlier having production capacity on the continent will also help our conquest.

While it's not hard to figure that out, I remain skeptical about the numbers. Maintenance will get phenominally high - we're already losing 40+gpt now Capture and keep a bunch of cities and plant a heap more and those last few turns will have us going down the tube at hundreds per turn I would think...? Or am I missing something...?

City maintenance is not that high right now - most of our money is paying for the large number of units we have and we can reduce that as much as we want in the final stage of the game. Economy will also improve when our cities grow bigger. If we can get CoL we can expand our many cities in only 3 turns so even with a maintenance of 100gpt we could survive long enough. (Theology would be equally good because it will allow us to bulb CoL).

It's still unclear to me if domination or conquest is the faster solution so I would rather follow a path where we keep both options open - that is, we first capture some of the cities we want to keep anyway. As I mentioned earlier having production capacity on the continent will also help our conquest.
I do think that MP has a point concerning making a decision concerning Domination or Conquest. I think we are close to a break point.

If we are going for Domination, there is a decision to make regarding attacking Persia or not. Either we keep him as a friend and turn our army loose on India, Spain and China or we attack Persia. That is the question for MP's turn set?

Earlier, using your excellent formula, I figured we would need 23 more cities. But we really do not need that many. Taking India's four cities (I can only find three), Spain's Libyan and Osaka (while razing Zaragosa), and Qin's cities, we will need only about 13 or 14 settlers. Take four of Cyrus' and we need less than 10!

I was looking over what CP wrote concerning an area inside of Persia in which we might be fairly free of culture. My recommendation would be that we take Tyre, Susa, Persepolis and Pasagadae. Along with the Indian cities, that would give us a nice little piece of space to work with and has some good resources in them, Ivory and Gems among them.

To me, how MP plays this is dependent upon the question of Domination or Conquest? Or, I could be missing something in my inexperience? :blush:

So let's go right ahead and strike at India then fall upon Persia from the north, hitting at Tyre and Susa simultaneously.

One thing that bothers me is that we cannot see most of Greece so that area is not included in the calculations, unless we can back into it by assuming that Greece is the smallest of the remaining nations, though I fear that may be an incorrect assumption due to the bite we have taken out of China. Is there any way to figure the size of Greece based on visible city names?

I also see no reason to set research to 10%, should be 0%.

Yes, please! Didn't even notice this. If we want to research a tech (which I doubt we will) we can always go to 100% science at some point. Researching at 10% is just money out of the window.

Looked at the save again to do a reality check on our maintenance expenses. It turns out that all our cities can be MM'ed so that they have zero or positive balance!! That means we do not have a single city that can't pay for itself and in most cases contribute to the treasury. We shouldn't do the MM'ing this way though. It's better to grow our cities for a while and then MM for gold later. The real reason for our economical problem is the high military budget but that should be offset by the gold our glorious army will steal from our enemies :D .


One thing that bothers me is that we cannot see most of Greece so that area is not included in the calculations, unless we can back into it by assuming that Greece is the smallest of the remaining nations, though I fear that may be an incorrect assumption due to the bite we have taken out of China. Is there any way to figure the size of Greece based on visible city names?

There are 6 Greek cities + Athens. Judging from the visible cultural borders 3 are located on the Greek bridge island and 3 on ther continent. This means that Athens is the only city on the island where it's at.

Earlier, using your excellent formula, I figured we would need 23 more cities. But we really do not need that many. Taking India's four cities (I can only find three), Spain's Libyan and Osaka (while razing Zaragosa), and Qin's cities, we will need only about 13 or 14 settlers. Take four of Cyrus' and we need less than 10!

The formula is only an approximation and it assumes that our spammed (or conquered) cities are not coastal and not overlapping. In reality we will probably need a few more. Madras, for instance will only give us a few tiles extra probably less than 0.5% of land due to cultural pressure from Persia.

If we're not already at war with India and they have gold it might be worth extorting a bulk gold payment from them before declaring. I used extortion to finance my domination expansion in one game I played; although I only needed cash for a few more turns while I was awaiting border expansions.

It's still unclear to me if domination or conquest is the faster solution so I would rather follow a path where we keep both options open - that is, we first capture some of the cities we want to keep anyway. As I mentioned earlier having production capacity on the continent will also help our conquest.

That's my line of thought as well.



City maintenance is not that high right now - most of our money is paying for the large number of units we have and we can reduce that as much as we want in the final stage of the game. Economy will also improve when our cities grow bigger. If we can get CoL we can expand our many cities in only 3 turns so even with a maintenance of 100gpt we could survive long enough. (Theology would be equally good because it will allow us to bulb CoL).

Yes, which makes getting CoL mandatory for Domination to even be considered.

Frederiksburg, in addition to cities that will largely support themselves, wouldn't it make sense to also include cities that would largely support themselves with a courthouse built and that had the forest to quickly chop for it? Does that add many to your list? The fewer settlers we need to spam, the better, and especially the fewer (hopefully none) we'd need to settle on the big island. Also, you did not list the coastal Chinese cities with lighthouses. Is this because you don't like their support potential even with coastal tiles worked or because the land tiles they include are limited?

Part of the trick to Domination would be to take and hold few cities that will greatly drain our economy until we are in a position to either capture or settle the numbers necessary for Domination. Then we'd capture and settle and expand ASAP as we continue to capture or raze cities to reimburse our treasury.

If we're not already at war with India and they have gold it might be worth extorting a bulk gold payment from them before declaring. I used extortion to finance my domination expansion in one game I played; although I only needed cash for a few more turns while I was awaiting border expansions.

That sounds like an idea worth pursuing.

If we're not already at war with India and they have gold it might be worth extorting a bulk gold payment from them before declaring. I used extortion to finance my domination expansion in one game I played; although I only needed cash for a few more turns while I was awaiting border expansions.

Good idea. Unfortunately neither India nor we have Currency but it can be used when we declare again on other civs.

"I was looking over what CP wrote concerning an area inside of Persia in which we might be fairly free of culture. My recommendation would be that we take Tyre, Susa, Persepolis and Pasagadae. Along with the Indian cities, that would give us a nice little piece of space to work with and has some good resources in them, Ivory and Gems among them."

Not sure I'll have time this evening to look at this, but if those cities are consistent with Frederiksberg's list, then I think we can indeed keep the Domination/Conquest question open, as their capture would be desirable in either case. Do urge that we extract CoL from China before declaring peace and moving forces toward Persia. Also, hope MP has noted unhappiness problem in 5 turns when China cap comes out of anarchy. If we go directly after Persia, rather than India, we probably need to take or raze Ghangzhou first.

Frederiksburg, in addition to cities that will largely support themselves, wouldn't it make sense to also include cities that would largely support themselves with a courthouse built and that had the forest to quickly chop for it? Does that add many to your list? The fewer settlers we need to spam, the better, and especially the fewer (hopefully none) we'd need to settle on the big island. Also, you did not list the coastal Chinese cities with lighthouses. Is this because you don't like their support potential even with coastal tiles worked or because the land tiles they include are limited?

The only way we can realistically built courthouses that are actually going to do anything significant is in a city with significant forest to chop. Such cities could be included in the calculations assuming we get CoL sometime soon (from China, say).

Also, coastal cities of say 5+ size could be considered as cities that will pay for themselves if they have a lighthouse. With 3 gold from each coastal tile, as long as we are content to have the city never actually build anything because we're working only coastal tiles, such a city will also pay for itself now that we have the Colossus. the problem is that they will only get about half the land tiles a landlocked city will get towards domination. However half is better than none, and if it's paying for itself (or just about) then having some cities like this will help towards domination, possibly reducing the number of settlers necessary.

Frederiksburg, in addition to cities that will largely support themselves, wouldn't it make sense to also include cities that would largely support themselves with a courthouse built and that had the forest to quickly chop for it? Does that add many to your list? The fewer settlers we need to spam, the better, and especially the fewer (hopefully none) we'd need to settle on the big island. Also, you did not list the coastal Chinese cities with lighthouses. Is this because you don't like their support potential even with coastal tiles worked or because the land tiles they include are limited?

I didn't consider the Chinese cities but I think you are right they should have maintenance costs comparable to those of our Arab cities (8-9gpt) and the income from these cities will be #pop x 3 + 4 if we work coastal tiles i.e. a size 3 city will produce a net profit of 4-5 gpt and a size 5 city a profit of 10-11 gpt. Number of cities maintenance will probably increase in other places but the net result should be positive or zero I think. So we can probably add Guangzhou and Chengdu to the list of cities that we keep. Any reasonably large coastal city will probably be worth keeping on the continent also thus we can most likely add Persepolis, Pasargadea and Arbela to the list. What is a bit hard to quantify is the accumulated added number of cities cost and that may be the factor that will finally limit the number of profitable cities.

Also, hope MP has noted unhappiness problem in 5 turns when China cap comes out of anarchy. If we go directly after Persia, rather than India, we probably need to take or raze Ghangzhou first.

One of our galleys is only 1-2 turns from uncovering the sea route from China to Persia and that should help with the immediate problems. But then we would still need to capture Guangzhou before we declare on Cyrus....

One of our galleys is only 1-2 turns from uncovering the sea route from China to Persia and that should help with the immediate problems. But then we would still need to capture Guangzhou before we declare on Cyrus....
Please don't forget Zaragosa and Sidon in that list of cities. They will block the bridge island from our home island to the large continent!

I think I am hearing that we should get set up to invade Persia and create an enclave of relatively safe area from culture. Or are heading for India? And what about Izzie?

Sorry, so many questions, so little time... :mischief:

I didn't consider the Chinese cities but I think you are right they should have maintenance costs comparable to those of our Arab cities (8-9gpt) and the income from these cities will be #pop x 3 + 4 if we work coastal tiles i.e. a size 3 city will produce a net profit of 4-5 gpt and a size 5 city a profit of 10-11 gpt. Number of cities maintenance will probably increase in other places but the net result should be positive or zero I think. So we can probably add Guangzhou and Chengdu to the list of cities that we keep.

What you might not have considered with Chengdu is the near presence of Shanghai owned by the barbs. Together with the expansion of Shanghai once we capture Chengdu, and the expansion of Beijing, Chegdu would add only about three land tiles to our empire. Is it really worth keeping. Guangzhou is another matter being further from Shanghai and Beijing, and having more land on its far side from Shanghai - it would add quite a few land tiles. If we're going for domination, I'd certainly wnat to keep Guangzhou, but I'm still not sure about Chengdu.

CP is right about taking Guangzhou before declaring on Cyrus. the galley will clear the route to Persia in two or three turns which means while we are not at war with Cyrus, the unhappies won't be a problem in Beijing, but once we declare on Cyrus, they'll come back to bite unless we get Guangzhou. Forces in the galleys along the Chinese coast look enough to take Chengdu - perhaps forces in Beijing can march to Guangzhou once they have healed? I'll have another look at all these details before posting a plan though.

"What you might not have considered with Chengdu is the near presence of Shanghai owned by the barbs. Together with the expansion of Shanghai once we capture Chengdu, and the expansion of Beijing, Chegdu would add only about three land tiles to our empire."

Good catch. Raze it. Anything worth pillaging first?

SNIP - perhaps forces in Beijing can march to Guangzhou once they have healed? I'll have another look at all these details before posting a plan though.
It will be interesting to see what is in Gangzhou because if that Settler left, something went with it! Hopefully, it was the CG3 Archer! :D

Looking forward to your plan! :thumbsup:

Looked at the save again, and still think Domination needs to be an option. We would want to get CoL from China (before attacking Persia), and acquire either Currency or Feudalism or both in the not too distant future.

The fewer settlers the better, and so I would look to add Tarsus (with its 12 gold from gems) and Arbela (where we could whip the courthouse) to the list of cities that we could hold before the final push.

Let's find out where Cyrus's army is holed up and how powerful it is as soon as we can.

Looked at the save again, and still think Domination needs to be an option. We would want to get CoL from China (before attacking Persia), and acquire either Currency or Feudalism or both in the not too distant future.

Let's find out where Cyrus's army is holed up and how powerful it is as soon as we can.
So with these pre-requisites, do you think we should head for India now while we continue to prep for Persia? And should we also clean up Izzie and Qin?

I think that means holding onto most of those cities, although certainly not Zaragosa (single island tile city near the island bridge).

I'm just trying to organise my time for the next few days. Discussion so far is good - keep it going! I think in about 21 hours from the time of this post, I will post a plan, and a summary of the way we're heading as I see it. I'll try to keep a close eye on discussion following that and interact if necessary, and assuming no serious arguments still in progress, I'll play about 24 hours after that (Friday morning GMT+10). That would mean I'd start playing in about 45 hours from now. Any changes from that schedule, and I'll post to say so.

Looked at the save again, and still think Domination needs to be an option. We would want to get CoL from China (before attacking Persia), and acquire either Currency or Feudalism or both in the not too distant future.

The fewer settlers the better, and so I would look to add Tarsus (with its 12 gold from gems) and Arbela (where we could whip the courthouse) to the list of cities that we could hold before the final push.

Let's find out where Cyrus's army is holed up and how powerful it is as soon as we can.

It looks to me like we're heading at domination because we think we can, and if we can, it will be quicker than conquest, and if at some stage after my turnset is finished (so it doesn't effect me straight away) we might call off the move towards domination because it has become clearly impossible, and we'll go berserk burning as many cities as possible...

Is that the flavour of the discussion on this mattrer?

Regarding the immediate war in China, it seems to me that we're moving towards clearing the rote to Persia immediately, burning Chengdu, then capturing and keeping Guangzhou before trying to get CoL out of Qin Shi for peace. If he still doesn't want to give CoL then, we could take out another city and see if that changes his mind, but that would be a nuisance.

I'm hearing that it's essential that Guangzhou fall before war is declared on Cyrus.

I'm not yet clear on just what to do with the stack on the big continent and other forces that will arrive there? India before Persia, or not? What about Izzy? Should be take Osaka before getting peace? What about Libyan? If we went to war against India, then Libyan probably shold be taken out at the same time, but if we're hitting Persia first, then I'm not so sure about that...

Even if we're going against Persia first (not yet decided?) there needs to be a few turns yet before the declaration - can we use those few turns taking Osaka? If we're going to declare on Persia, we should make sure there are no partially built elephants at the time, of course, because we'll lose that ivory at least temporarily.

It looks to me like we're heading at domination because we think we can, and if we can, it will be quicker than conquest, and if at some stage after my turnset is finished (so it doesn't effect me straight away) we might call off the move towards domination because it has become clearly impossible, and we'll go berserk burning as many cities as possible...

Is that the flavour of the discussion on this mattrer?

I'd phrase it . . . There is a reasonable possibility of D, and we can proceed consistent with both.

Regarding the immediate war in China, it seems to me that we're moving towards clearing the rote to Persia immediately, burning Chengdu, then capturing and keeping Guangzhou before trying to get CoL out of Qin Shi for peace. If he still doesn't want to give CoL then, we could take out another city and see if that changes his mind, but that would be a nuisance.

I'm hearing that it's essential that Guangzhou fall before war is declared on Cyrus.

YES

I'm not yet clear on just what to do with the stack on the big continent and other forces that will arrive there? India before Persia, or not? What about Izzy? Should be take Osaka before getting peace? What about Libyan? If we went to war against India, then Libyan probably shold be taken out at the same time, but if we're hitting Persia first, then I'm not so sure about that...

Even if we're going against Persia first (not yet decided?) there needs to be a few turns yet before the declaration - can we use those few turns taking Osaka? If we're going to declare on Persia, we should make sure there are no partially built elephants at the time, of course, because we'll lose that ivory at least temporarily.

Persia depends on size & location of its army.

Regarding the immediate war in China, it seems to me that we're moving towards clearing the rote to Persia immediately, burning Chengdu, then capturing and keeping Guangzhou before trying to get CoL out of Qin Shi for peace. If he still doesn't want to give CoL then, we could take out another city and see if that changes his mind, but that would be a nuisance.

I wonder if we should clean up the Chinese island and raze the remaining cities (Except Guangzhou, of course). In favor of this approach counts that we wouldn't have to come back with any military units only settlers. Alternatively we could let them stay and come back to capture them in the final push for domination. If, however, we discover that conquest is faster then coming back with troops would be delaying victory. I think I'm in favor of cleaning up leaving just Tianjin on the big continent since that approach should work well for both victory conditions. Remember that the AI can't resettle the Chinese island.

I'm not yet clear on just what to do with the stack on the big continent and other forces that will arrive there? India before Persia, or not? What about Izzy? Should be take Osaka before getting peace? What about Libyan? If we went to war against India, then Libyan probably shold be taken out at the same time, but if we're hitting Persia first, then I'm not so sure about that...

Try to get Theology out of Izzy before making peace. It's important because we will get a Great Prophet in Madrid and he can bulb CoL if we already have Theology. If we capture Delhi before going for Cyrus we won't loose gems because we would have our own. If we attack Cyrus now we loose ivory, gems and all foreign trade routes. Drawback is that Delhi will probably need some defense against a counter attack from Cyrus. Do we have any spears to defend against Cyrus's WE's?

Remember that the AI can't resettle the Chinese island.
Can't they use the route that our Galley is following to Persia?

I am also is favor of cleaning up the Chinese island while we have troops there to do so.

Drawback is that Delhi will probably need some defense against a counter attack from Cyrus. Do we have any spears to defend against Cyrus's WE's?
This is true. The more I think about it the more I am thinking that we may as well carve a route north while we clean up China and find Cyrus' army. Reinforcements can go to preparing to attack Susa while the current stack heads for India, and perhaps Libyan, if there is time?

Can't they use the route that our Galley is following to Persia?


Yes, during war time they actually can. During peace the culture of Beijing will seal off any access without open borders. I doubt that the AI will risk sending a settler this way during war time.

Yes, during war time they actually can. During peace the culture of Beijing will seal off any access without open borders. I doubt that the AI will risk sending a settler this way during war time.
Good catch! Thanks. :D

Cleansing China sounds good to me, as does acquiring gems and a good Indian city, though I'd like to be flexible if we find Cyrus particularly vulnerable.

If we already have both CoL from China and Theology from Spain, what will the GP light bulb? Would we want him to build a shrine somewhere?

Seems MP will have a challenging turn set.

Any thoughts on switching from MC to another tech?

If we already have both CoL from China and Theology from Spain, what will the GP light bulb? Would we want him to build a shrine somewhere?

If we get both he will bulb Civil Service. Alternative is to build the Budhist shrine in Delhi. CS and bureaucracy is probably the better deal in that case.

Any thoughts on switching from MC to another tech?

Maybe CoL? Might make it more likely that some civ will give it to us in a deal.

Maybe CoL? Might make it more likely that some civ will give it to us in a deal.
I agree with CoL's! :deal:
:deadhorse:

Okay, MP, let's switch to CoL.

OK. Here’s the plan.

China
Burn Chengdu, march on Guanzhou, capture and keep. Forces from the sacking of Chengdu can help out with Guangzhou if needed, but I hope not – this will slow things down waiting for their arrival. Somewhere in here, we need an elephant (+backup?) to get to Macau as well and burn that down – the swords in the galleys might have problems with that axe. Send some forces through the route to Persia to eventually take Tianjin, but that won’t happen in ten turns. We also want to leave Qin Shi with something though because we hope to get CoL out of him, yes? He still has Shandong on the west side of his island anyhow.

War on the big continent
Move stack near Persia towards Madras and Delhi. Burn Madras, keep Delhi, march on Calcutta, probably won’t get there before end of turn set.

Take Zaragosa and burn it, see if Izzy will then give Theology for peace. If so, take it, if not, just take even peace deal.

I’ll continue looking for Cyrus’ army.

MM’ing
Cities should be MM’ed to grow without cutting gold if possible, once growth of a couple of citizens (in most cases) takes place, MM for max gold. I’ll take what net gains I can (eg coast instead of cottage in Ning-hsia for +2 gold). I won’t be using the whip I don’t think. I have a question: are we willing to sacrifice hammers in this process?

Tech
Change to CoL. If we get Theology out of Izzy, then the GP in Madras will have the choice of shrine or Civil Service, but that won’t effect my turn set – there’s still 78 GPP’s needed there and at the moment it’s increasing by only 1/turn.

It seems to me that it is more important to take out several Chinese cities right now than to get CoL immediately. Please tell me if you disagree. This would mean I pursue the sacking of Macau and capture of Guangzhou even if Qin is willing to give CoL for peace after the burning of Chengdu. We’ll need CoL eventually, but not in the next ten turns I think. I propose I pursue the destruction of China throughout my turn set, and leave the option of peace with Qin Shi for CoL to the end of the turn set when we can discuss if we have yet taken enough away from China. Even if I take Guangzhou and Macau before the end of my turn set, there will still be Tianjin on the big continent for us to take if we want, and troops going that way will be a good idea anyway even if we want peace without taking Tianjin. I certainly won’t get that far in ten turns.

I’ll start playing in about 24 hours

I like the sound of that! :clap:

OK. Here’s the plan.
:goodjob:

China
We also want to leave Qin Shi with something though because we hope to get CoL out of him, yes? He still has Shandong on the west side of his island anyhow.
I think I am more interested in taking out as much as we can on Qin's home island. I wouldn't worry too much about Tianjin. Once we have his home island secured, as Frederiksberg said, he can't get home again to resettle. So let's end his reign there! :hammer:

Once you move the Galley near Gangzhou, you should know what you'll need to deal with it. I think you may have to move forces from Chengdu back again? Perhaps a War Elephant and a Sword would be enough to take to Macau? :hmm:

War on the big continent
Move stack near Persia towards Madras and Delhi. Burn Madras, keep Delhi, march on Calcutta, probably won’t get there before end of turn set.
Yes! I think we should not get too many troops too far from the Persian border as we may need to send them in?

Take Zaragosa and burn it, see if Izzy will then give Theology for peace. If so, take it, if not, just take even peace deal.
Please enjoy sacking Zaragosa! ;)

MM’ing
Cities should be MM’ed to grow without cutting gold if possible, once growth of a couple of citizens (in most cases) takes place, MM for max gold. I’ll take what net gains I can (eg coast instead of cottage in Ning-hsia for +2 gold). I won’t be using the whip I don’t think. I have a question: are we willing to sacrifice hammers in this process?
Growth first but we also need some units as well. That will be a tough balance to strike, I think.

Tech
Change to CoL. If we get Theology out of Izzy, then the GP in Madras will have the choice of shrine or Civil Service, but that won’t effect my turn set – there’s still 78 GPP’s needed there and at the moment it’s increasing by only 1/turn.
:thumbsup:

Even if I take Guangzhou and Macau before the end of my turn set, there will still be Tianjin on the big continent for us to take if we want, and troops going that way will be a good idea anyway even if we want peace without taking Tianjin. I certainly won’t get that far in ten turns.
As I said earlier, Qin can have Tianjin for now. Let's get his other cities captured or razed. :cowboy: :trouble:

"Qin can have Tianjin for now. Let's get his other cities captured or razed."

Yes, and while we don't need CoL immediately, we certainly want it for peace with China. Currency or Feudalism next research.

Really like to get Theo from Spain. Is there another
Spanish city practical to go after, if Izzie is recalcitrant?

"Qin can have Tianjin for now. Let's get his other cities captured or razed."

Yes, and while we don't need CoL immediately, we certainly want it for peace with China. Currency or Feudalism next research.

Really like to get Theo from Spain. Is there another
Spanish city practical to go after, if Izzie is recalcitrant?

I think Libyan and Osaka are the only other two she has. Osaka is in the opposite direction from India for our stack, which by the time we burn Zaragoza will already be on the way to India. Libyan could be taken out after calcutta. I won't get to Calcutta in my turn set I don't think. We'd have time for peace with Izzy after burning Zaragoza before redeclaring in the next turn set up on arriving near Libyan, and see if that results in Theology coming our way after we take that one. That would be better than staying at war with Izzy those ten turns I think.

We'd have time for peace with Izzy after burning Zaragoza before redeclaring in the next turn set up on arriving near Libyan, and see if that results in Theology coming our way after we take that one. That would be better than staying at war with Izzy those ten turns I think.
I'm not so sure of this. Redeclaring will require some number of turns before Izzie will talk again. If we're thinking speed, perhaps we should stay at war and, once Libyan or Osaka are taken, then we can get peace.

The biggest downside to this argument is that our Allies seem to be throwing Archers against Osaka and this will promote Izzie's troops, making the city harder to get later.

This could be mute as she might give Theology for peace after Zaragosa is razed? :crazyeye:

I'm not so sure of this. Redeclaring will require some number of turns before Izzie will talk again.

True. I hadn't taken that into account. We can't very well wipe her out if we want a tech off her can we?

This could be mute as she might give Theology for peace after Zaragosa is razed? :crazyeye:

I sincerely hope she does. Much simpler.

Are there some more opinions on what I should do if Izzy won't give Theology for peace after I burn Zaragoza? Do we stay at war, or do we accept the even peace deal?

"Are there some more opinions on what I should do if Izzy won't give Theology for peace after I burn Zaragoza? Do we stay at war, or do we accept the even peace deal?"

I think you're going to have to play this as you go. As long as WW is not keeping our cities from growing and producing, you could stay at war with Spain and possibly get a deal for Theo just from killing a Spanish unit or two. Theo is certainly not mandatory, just useful in time.

Theo is certainly not mandatory, just useful in time.

If we can get CoL from Qin Theology is probably not important. If we fail to get CoL Theology is important becuse having it means that the GP can bulb CoL.

Tech
Change to CoL. If we get Theology out of Izzy, then the GP in Madras will have the choice of shrine or Civil Service, but that won’t effect my turn set – there’s still 78 GPP’s needed there and at the moment it’s increasing by only 1/turn.

Right now the GP would bulb Theology. If we have Theo he will bulb CoL. If we have both Theo and CoL he will bulb CS. Shrine is the backup solution if we can't get Theo.

I think I am more interested in taking out as much as we can on Qin's home island. I wouldn't worry too much about Tianjin. Once we have his home island secured, as Frederiksberg said, he can't get home again to resettle. So let's end his reign there!

Once you move the Galley near Gangzhou, you should know what you'll need to deal with it. I think you may have to move forces from Chengdu back again? Perhaps a War Elephant and a Sword would be enough to take to Macau?

I agree with this. Maybe consider if it's faster to move some of our units in galleys. It has the added benefit that wounded units can heal during transport.

MM for max gold. I’ll take what net gains I can (eg coast instead of cottage in Ning-hsia for +2 gold)

Exactly! In a long game it would be better to mature the cottages, but since we are aiming to finish this fast it's better to take the immediate gold gain from the sea tiles.

Exactly! In a long game it would be better to mature the cottages, but since we are aiming to finish this fast it's better to take the immediate gold gain from the sea tiles.
While I do agree with this concept, I think that we have to keep units flowing as well, particularly Cats. The beauty of Cats is that they can make us a lot of Gold by allowing us to take the enemy cities! :mischief:

Good Luck MP!! :please:
And please don't forget your sacrifice to the RNG God... :bowdown:

While I do agree with this concept, I think that we have to keep units flowing as well, particularly Cats. The beauty of Cats is that they can make us a lot of Gold by allowing us to take the enemy cities! :mischief:


Absolutely! Maintaining a strong army is clearly important as we are going for a fast military solution. What I was talking about is the cottaged grassland vs coastal tile trade off. When we start MM'ing for gold I don't think we want to sacrifice many hammers.

Good luck MP!

I will begin to play in about 10 to 15 minutes. I just need to go get a coffee first. Need to make sure my brain is not half asleep :rolleyes:

Looking forward to spilling some Chinese, Indian and Spanish blood... ;)

I just need to go get a coffee first. Need to make sure my brain is not half asleep :rolleyes:
Forget the coffee, Ice Cream!! :yumyum:
That arctic cold will keep your brain from nodding off! :twitch:
:lol: :lol: :lol:

Looking forward to spilling some Chinese, Indian and Spanish blood... ;)
Good luck MP! :salute:

Good luck! *lights candle to RNG god*

I’ve played ten turns. Things went fairly well. The RNG gods were even handed – a couple of frustrating losses, but there were a couple of very nice wins too! I think all goals were achieved for the turn set accept getting Guangzhou, and that should fall in a couple of turns, and I got a couple of extras in there as well. We are now managing Delhi, and we burned Madras, Calcutta, Karachi, Chengdu, Macau, and Zaragoza. Seven cities captured in ten turns, with another couple looking shaky. Oh – Cyrus has no “death stack”. And Izzy is totally unreasonable, but you knew that anyway.

Anyhow – here’s the turn by turn description…

I open the file, it’s 1190AD.
I set the science to 0, and do some MM’ing getting more gold without cutting food – some coast instead of cottages, basically, and in one case a farm with a gold instead of a cottage.
I move an elephant in Beijing next to the Chinese archer on the hill there, and move the stack near Tyre northwards towards India.
We’re now at 648 gold minus 31gpt.

T1 1196AD
Take a look at Guangzhou – 3 archers, 1 garr 3, one garr 1
Chinese galley S of Guanzhou with archer + settler. Probably going to settle on ruins of Xian?
Swap sword for elephant in galley near Beijing
Unload 2 swords and 2 cats on hill W of Chengdu, 1 elephant still in galley
I left a cat on a galley to heal while it sails to Guangzhou
Kill Chinese archer near Beijing
Stack in Persia now on Indian border. Will declare war next turn and begin the long walk through Indian territory.
Exploring Persia with Keshik:
Persepolis: 1 garr 3 lbow, 1 garr 1 lbow, 1 spear
Pasargardae: 1 garr 1 lbow, 1 axe
Embark troops for Zaragoza
WW just got worse and I haven’t declared on Asoka yet

T2 1202AD
Qin Shi pops an archer in Chengdu. Ouch
Bombard Chengdu (2 cats)
The route from China to Persia is open
Land sword and elephant near Zaragoza
Chinese galley 4S of Guanzhou. I occupy forest so he can’t land there
DW on Asoka
Alex annoyed, Cyrus back to +2 cautious, everyone else hates our guts

T3 1208AD
Great Library built far away (Athens)
Great Artist Born in Delhi
Qin Shi lands archer and settler on ruins of Xian. I kill archer, get wkr
Bombard Chengdu
Attack and burn Zaragoza, no losses
Izzy won’t give Theology for peace. Stingy . .. .. .. .. .. :mad: We’ll just have to take another city off her to get Theology. Libyan will be in the way of our forces once we’ve done India over
Qin Shi pops a 4th archer in Chengdu! Fortunately one goes walkabout
Exploring Persia: Arbela has 1 garr 1 lbow, 2 spears and 1 axe, and a galley with a settler and lbow in it
These 2 spears and the axe are about the size of Cyrus’ counter-attack stack. Most of his power is in longbows, it seems. I didn’t even see any elephants in my turn set Did you see any Bede?

T4 1214AD
Qin Shi is an idiot. He sends second archer out of Chengdu. He wants to attack Shanghai! He leaves only 2 archers behind in Chengdu.
Bombard then attack Chengdu.
Cat beats garr 2 archer! :lol:
Burn it down
Approach Calcutta from the SE with sword and axe. See only one archer defending

T5 1220AD
Chinese archers on the way to Shanghai turn and attack our cats near the ruins of Chengdu. We kill one archer, and lose one cat. Not nice. :(
There are 6 GPP per turn in Beijing. Our first great person will come from here, I’d say. Madrid is too slow. At the moment, it’s 2/2/2 Priest/Artist/Merchant from the wonders.
Qin Shi is willing to give Literature for peace, but not CoL :mad:
Chinese galley from the west appears near Guangzhou with 2 chariots on board! It’s in an ocean tile so our galleys can’t reach it.
Sword attacks Calcutta, and wins (57% battle), :) we burn Calcutta
Split the main Indian stack, arriving near Madras and Delhi at the same time. Madras has 1 garr 2 archer, Delhi has1 garr 3 archer and a spear
WW starting to hurt in a couple of places.
Whip WE in Karakorum because they’re unhappy faces anyhow

T6 1226AD
Chinese galley with Chariots is heading for Beijing, I’d say
I risk a 32% battle attacking with one of our galleys and win! :lol: :lol:
Lose a sword taking and burning Madras
Spot Indian settler and spear and archer heading towards ruins of Calcutta. I leave the sword there.
Bombard Delhi (2 cats)
I see Indian culture on NE coast of big continent. That’s where Lahore must be.

T7 1232AD
Bombard, attack and keep Delhi. No losses!:woohoo:
We have sugar, bananas and 1 gem already developed which is nice.
Land near Macau
Bombard Guangzhou (1 cat)

T8 1238AD
Kill Indian archer advancing on Salamanca
Asoka will give Literature + 100 gold for peace, but not CoL. I want to kill that settler before getting peace with Asoka, so I wait.
Take and burn Macau. No losses.
Bombard Guangzhou
Barb axe approaches Shandong on Chinese west coast, so we see that one now. Only 1 archer defending.
Qin Shi will now give Literature + CoL for peace. But we want Guangzhou first, so I don’t propose it.
WW starting to hurt again in Karakorum

T9 1244AD
A chinese galley just bult in Guangzhou sinks one of ours! Rats! The RNG are taking payment for the earlier luck! :(
Barb axe must have lost at Shandong
Bombard Guangzhou
Set worker as bait near Guangzhou – if I can get one of those archers out, I’ll take it next turn
Asoka settles Karachi 1N of where Calcutta was with spear and archer defending

T10 1250AD
Attack and burn Karachi. No losses.
Asoka will give CoL for peace. :D I accept! So we got it out of Asoka, not Qin Shi!
Qin Shi doesn’t take the worker bait near Guangzhou, and whips another archer there! Will have to wait on this one. A couple of units reinforcements about to arrive.
Barb Horse Archer NE of Guangzhou. I wonder if we can convince him to take the city?
Qin Shi will now give Literature and Metal Casting for peace! :eek: Nice! Hmmm. That’s about the same price as Theology. He might offer that if we ask nicely. Then again, if we can take Libyan off Izzy, she might give us Theology, in which case we’re better off taking literature and metal casting from Qin Shi. But we’ll still take Guangzhou first, yes?
Spanish spear steps out of Libyan so I kill it. Only 3 archers left there.

OK. We can take both Libyan and Guangzhou in a few turns I think. I suspect after those two cities are taken, we can possible get Literature, Metal casting, and Theology as well out of the two of them for peace.

Quite a few units around the place I did not move this last turn and could be moved at the beginning of the next turn set if needed.

Oh - I did some prechopping - the 2 forests to the east of Madrid, and the 2 forest in the fat cross of Barcelona are pre-chopped. I wasn't quite sure if we'd want courthouses in those cities since they are rather expensive to maintain and we only just got CoL, so I left the forests mostly chopped for that purpose.

Here’s the save:
http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm5/Xteam_SG005_AD1250_01.Civ4SavedGame

Here’s the turn log the website gave me:
Here is your Session Turn Log from 1190 AD to 1250 AD:

Turn 255, 1190 AD: Logging Game to File: autolog.txt

Turn 256, 1196 AD: X-TeamSGOTM5's War Elephant (9.60) vs Qin Shi Huang's Archer (3.15)
Turn 256, 1196 AD: Combat Odds: 100.0%
Turn 256, 1196 AD: (Extra Combat: -20%)
Turn 256, 1196 AD: (Plot Defense: +25%)
Turn 256, 1196 AD: (Hills: +25%)
Turn 256, 1196 AD: X-TeamSGOTM5's War Elephant is hit for 12 (88/100HP)
Turn 256, 1196 AD: Qin Shi Huang's Archer is hit for 30 (40/100HP)
Turn 256, 1196 AD: Qin Shi Huang's Archer is hit for 30 (10/100HP)
Turn 256, 1196 AD: Qin Shi Huang's Archer is hit for 30 (0/100HP)
Turn 256, 1196 AD: X-TeamSGOTM5's War Elephant has defeated Qin Shi Huang's Archer!

Turn 257, 1202 AD: Homer has been born in Delhi!
Turn 257, 1202 AD: The Great Library has been built in a far away land!

Turn 258, 1208 AD: X-TeamSGOTM5's War Elephant (8.80) vs Qin Shi Huang's Archer (3.00)
Turn 258, 1208 AD: Combat Odds: 100.0%
Turn 258, 1208 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 258, 1208 AD: Qin Shi Huang's Archer is hit for 33 (67/100HP)
Turn 258, 1208 AD: Qin Shi Huang's Archer is hit for 33 (34/100HP)
Turn 258, 1208 AD: X-TeamSGOTM5's War Elephant is hit for 12 (88/100HP)
Turn 258, 1208 AD: Qin Shi Huang's Archer is hit for 33 (1/100HP)
Turn 258, 1208 AD: Qin Shi Huang's Archer is hit for 33 (0/100HP)
Turn 258, 1208 AD: X-TeamSGOTM5's War Elephant has defeated Qin Shi Huang's Archer!
Turn 258, 1208 AD: X-TeamSGOTM5's Swordsman (6.60) vs Isabella's Archer (4.20)
Turn 258, 1208 AD: Combat Odds: 93.8%
Turn 258, 1208 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 258, 1208 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 258, 1208 AD: (City Defense: +70%)
Turn 258, 1208 AD: (City Attack: -55%)
Turn 258, 1208 AD: X-TeamSGOTM5's Swordsman is hit for 16 (84/100HP)
Turn 258, 1208 AD: X-TeamSGOTM5's Swordsman is hit for 16 (68/100HP)
Turn 258, 1208 AD: Isabella's Archer is hit for 25 (75/100HP)
Turn 258, 1208 AD: X-TeamSGOTM5's Swordsman is hit for 16 (52/100HP)
Turn 258, 1208 AD: Isabella's Archer is hit for 25 (50/100HP)
Turn 258, 1208 AD: Isabella's Archer is hit for 25 (25/100HP)
Turn 258, 1208 AD: Isabella's Archer is hit for 25 (0/100HP)
Turn 258, 1208 AD: X-TeamSGOTM5's Swordsman has defeated Isabella's Archer!
Turn 258, 1208 AD: You have captured Zaragoza!!!
Turn 258, 1208 AD: You have pillaged 16 ? from the destruction of Zaragoza!!!

Turn 259, 1214 AD: X-TeamSGOTM5's Catapult (5.00) vs Qin Shi Huang's Archer (6.30)
Turn 259, 1214 AD: Combat Odds: 19.5%
Turn 259, 1214 AD: (Plot Defense: +10%)
Turn 259, 1214 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 259, 1214 AD: (City Defense: +95%)
Turn 259, 1214 AD: (City Attack: -20%)
Turn 259, 1214 AD: X-TeamSGOTM5's Catapult is hit for 22 (78/100HP)
Turn 259, 1214 AD: Qin Shi Huang's Archer is hit for 17 (83/100HP)
Turn 259, 1214 AD: Qin Shi Huang's Archer is hit for 17 (66/100HP)
Turn 259, 1214 AD: X-TeamSGOTM5's Catapult is hit for 22 (56/100HP)
Turn 259, 1214 AD: X-TeamSGOTM5's Catapult is hit for 22 (34/100HP)
Turn 259, 1214 AD: Qin Shi Huang's Archer is hit for 17 (49/100HP)
Turn 259, 1214 AD: X-TeamSGOTM5's Catapult is hit for 22 (12/100HP)
Turn 259, 1214 AD: Qin Shi Huang's Archer is hit for 17 (32/100HP)
Turn 259, 1214 AD: Qin Shi Huang's Archer is hit for 17 (15/100HP)
Turn 259, 1214 AD: Qin Shi Huang's Archer is hit for 17 (0/100HP)
Turn 259, 1214 AD: X-TeamSGOTM5's Catapult has defeated Qin Shi Huang's Archer!
Turn 259, 1214 AD: X-TeamSGOTM5's Swordsman (6.60) vs Qin Shi Huang's Archer (3.43)
Turn 259, 1214 AD: Combat Odds: 96.9%
Turn 259, 1214 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 259, 1214 AD: (Plot Defense: +10%)
Turn 259, 1214 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 259, 1214 AD: (City Defense: +50%)
Turn 259, 1214 AD: (City Attack: -30%)
Turn 259, 1214 AD: (Combat: -25%)
Turn 259, 1214 AD: X-TeamSGOTM5's Swordsman is hit for 15 (85/100HP)
Turn 259, 1214 AD: Qin Shi Huang's Archer is hit for 26 (62/100HP)
Turn 259, 1214 AD: X-TeamSGOTM5's Swordsman is hit for 15 (70/100HP)
Turn 259, 1214 AD: Qin Shi Huang's Archer is hit for 26 (36/100HP)
Turn 259, 1214 AD: Qin Shi Huang's Archer is hit for 26 (10/100HP)
Turn 259, 1214 AD: Qin Shi Huang's Archer is hit for 26 (0/100HP)
Turn 259, 1214 AD: X-TeamSGOTM5's Swordsman has defeated Qin Shi Huang's Archer!
Turn 259, 1214 AD: You have captured Chengdu!!!
Turn 259, 1214 AD: You have destroyed the city of Chengdu!!!
Turn 259, 1214 AD: Qin Shi Huang's Archer (3.30) vs X-TeamSGOTM5's Catapult (5.00)
Turn 259, 1214 AD: Combat Odds: 12.3%
Turn 259, 1214 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 259, 1214 AD: X-TeamSGOTM5's Catapult is hit for 16 (84/100HP)
Turn 259, 1214 AD: X-TeamSGOTM5's Catapult is hit for 16 (68/100HP)
Turn 259, 1214 AD: Qin Shi Huang's Archer is hit for 24 (76/100HP)
Turn 259, 1214 AD: Qin Shi Huang's Archer is hit for 24 (52/100HP)
Turn 259, 1214 AD: X-TeamSGOTM5's Catapult is hit for 16 (52/100HP)
Turn 259, 1214 AD: X-TeamSGOTM5's Catapult is hit for 16 (36/100HP)
Turn 259, 1214 AD: Qin Shi Huang's Archer is hit for 24 (28/100HP)
Turn 259, 1214 AD: Qin Shi Huang's Archer is hit for 24 (4/100HP)
Turn 259, 1214 AD: Qin Shi Huang's Archer is hit for 24 (0/100HP)
Turn 259, 1214 AD: X-TeamSGOTM5's Catapult has defeated Qin Shi Huang's Archer!
Turn 259, 1214 AD: Qin Shi Huang's Archer (3.30) vs X-TeamSGOTM5's Catapult (1.80)
Turn 259, 1214 AD: Combat Odds: 98.8%
Turn 259, 1214 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 259, 1214 AD: X-TeamSGOTM5's Catapult is hit for 19 (17/100HP)
Turn 259, 1214 AD: X-TeamSGOTM5's Catapult is hit for 19 (0/100HP)
Turn 259, 1214 AD: Qin Shi Huang's Archer has defeated X-TeamSGOTM5's Catapult!

Turn 260, 1220 AD: X-TeamSGOTM5's Swordsman (6.60) vs Asoka's Archer (6.45)
Turn 260, 1220 AD: Combat Odds: 57.7%
Turn 260, 1220 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 260, 1220 AD: (Plot Defense: +45%)
Turn 260, 1220 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 260, 1220 AD: (City Defense: +50%)
Turn 260, 1220 AD: (Hills: +25%)
Turn 260, 1220 AD: (City Attack: -30%)
Turn 260, 1220 AD: Asoka's Archer is hit for 20 (80/100HP)
Turn 260, 1220 AD: X-TeamSGOTM5's Swordsman is hit for 19 (81/100HP)
Turn 260, 1220 AD: Asoka's Archer is hit for 20 (60/100HP)
Turn 260, 1220 AD: X-TeamSGOTM5's Swordsman is hit for 19 (62/100HP)
Turn 260, 1220 AD: Asoka's Archer is hit for 20 (40/100HP)
Turn 260, 1220 AD: Asoka's Archer is hit for 20 (20/100HP)
Turn 260, 1220 AD: Asoka's Archer is hit for 20 (0/100HP)
Turn 260, 1220 AD: X-TeamSGOTM5's Swordsman has defeated Asoka's Archer!
Turn 260, 1220 AD: You have captured Calcutta!!!
Turn 260, 1220 AD: You have destroyed the city of Calcutta!!!

Turn 261, 1226 AD: X-TeamSGOTM5's Galley (2.00) vs Qin Shi Huang's Galley (2.20)
Turn 261, 1226 AD: Combat Odds: 32.2%
Turn 261, 1226 AD: (Plot Defense: +10%)
Turn 261, 1226 AD: Qin Shi Huang's Galley is hit for 19 (81/100HP)
Turn 261, 1226 AD: X-TeamSGOTM5's Galley is hit for 20 (80/100HP)
Turn 261, 1226 AD: Qin Shi Huang's Galley is hit for 19 (62/100HP)
Turn 261, 1226 AD: X-TeamSGOTM5's Galley is hit for 20 (60/100HP)
Turn 261, 1226 AD: Qin Shi Huang's Galley is hit for 19 (43/100HP)
Turn 261, 1226 AD: X-TeamSGOTM5's Galley is hit for 20 (40/100HP)
Turn 261, 1226 AD: Qin Shi Huang's Galley is hit for 19 (24/100HP)
Turn 261, 1226 AD: Qin Shi Huang's Galley is hit for 19 (5/100HP)
Turn 261, 1226 AD: Qin Shi Huang's Galley is hit for 19 (0/100HP)
Turn 261, 1226 AD: X-TeamSGOTM5's Galley has defeated Qin Shi Huang's Galley!
Turn 261, 1226 AD: X-TeamSGOTM5's Swordsman (6.60) vs Asoka's Archer (6.00)
Turn 261, 1226 AD: Combat Odds: 62.3%
Turn 261, 1226 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 261, 1226 AD: (Plot Defense: +40%)
Turn 261, 1226 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 261, 1226 AD: (City Defense: +95%)
Turn 261, 1226 AD: (Hills: +25%)
Turn 261, 1226 AD: (City Attack: -85%)
Turn 261, 1226 AD: X-TeamSGOTM5's Swordsman is hit for 19 (81/100HP)
Turn 261, 1226 AD: X-TeamSGOTM5's Swordsman is hit for 19 (62/100HP)
Turn 261, 1226 AD: X-TeamSGOTM5's Swordsman is hit for 19 (43/100HP)
Turn 261, 1226 AD: X-TeamSGOTM5's Swordsman is hit for 19 (24/100HP)
Turn 261, 1226 AD: Asoka's Archer is hit for 20 (80/100HP)
Turn 261, 1226 AD: X-TeamSGOTM5's Swordsman is hit for 19 (5/100HP)
Turn 261, 1226 AD: X-TeamSGOTM5's Swordsman is hit for 19 (0/100HP)
Turn 261, 1226 AD: Asoka's Archer has defeated X-TeamSGOTM5's Swordsman!
Turn 261, 1226 AD: X-TeamSGOTM5's War Elephant (8.80) vs Asoka's Archer (6.84)
Turn 261, 1226 AD: Combat Odds: 81.5%
Turn 261, 1226 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 261, 1226 AD: (Plot Defense: +40%)
Turn 261, 1226 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 261, 1226 AD: (City Defense: +95%)
Turn 261, 1226 AD: (Hills: +25%)
Turn 261, 1226 AD: X-TeamSGOTM5's War Elephant is hit for 18 (82/100HP)
Turn 261, 1226 AD: Asoka's Archer is hit for 21 (59/100HP)
Turn 261, 1226 AD: Asoka's Archer is hit for 21 (38/100HP)
Turn 261, 1226 AD: Asoka's Archer is hit for 21 (17/100HP)
Turn 261, 1226 AD: Asoka's Archer is hit for 21 (0/100HP)
Turn 261, 1226 AD: X-TeamSGOTM5's War Elephant has defeated Asoka's Archer!
Turn 261, 1226 AD: You have captured Madras!!!
Turn 261, 1226 AD: You have destroyed the city of Madras!!!
Turn 261, 1226 AD: Ning-hsia has grown to size 7

Turn 262, 1232 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Madrid!
Turn 262, 1232 AD: Your Catapult has reduced the defenses of Delhi to 18%!
Turn 262, 1232 AD: X-TeamSGOTM5's War Elephant (9.60) vs Asoka's Archer (9.54)
Turn 262, 1232 AD: Combat Odds: 56.6%
Turn 262, 1232 AD: (Extra Combat: -20%)
Turn 262, 1232 AD: (Plot Defense: +43%)
Turn 262, 1232 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 262, 1232 AD: (City Defense: +125%)
Turn 262, 1232 AD: (Hills: +25%)
Turn 262, 1232 AD: X-TeamSGOTM5's War Elephant is hit for 19 (81/100HP)
Turn 262, 1232 AD: Asoka's Archer is hit for 20 (80/100HP)
Turn 262, 1232 AD: Asoka's Archer is hit for 20 (60/100HP)
Turn 262, 1232 AD: Asoka's Archer is hit for 20 (40/100HP)
Turn 262, 1232 AD: Asoka's Archer is hit for 20 (20/100HP)
Turn 262, 1232 AD: Asoka's Archer is hit for 20 (0/100HP)
Turn 262, 1232 AD: X-TeamSGOTM5's War Elephant has defeated Asoka's Archer!
Turn 262, 1232 AD: X-TeamSGOTM5's Swordsman (6.60) vs Asoka's Spearman (3.92)
Turn 262, 1232 AD: Combat Odds: 96.3%
Turn 262, 1232 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 262, 1232 AD: (Plot Defense: +43%)
Turn 262, 1232 AD: (Fortify: +10%)
Turn 262, 1232 AD: (City Attack: -55%)
Turn 262, 1232 AD: Asoka's Spearman is hit for 25 (75/100HP)
Turn 262, 1232 AD: X-TeamSGOTM5's Swordsman is hit for 15 (85/100HP)
Turn 262, 1232 AD: X-TeamSGOTM5's Swordsman is hit for 15 (70/100HP)
Turn 262, 1232 AD: Asoka's Spearman is hit for 25 (50/100HP)
Turn 262, 1232 AD: Asoka's Spearman is hit for 25 (25/100HP)
Turn 262, 1232 AD: Asoka's Spearman is hit for 25 (0/100HP)
Turn 262, 1232 AD: X-TeamSGOTM5's Swordsman has defeated Asoka's Spearman!
Turn 262, 1232 AD: You have captured a Worker
Turn 262, 1232 AD: You have captured Delhi!!!
Turn 262, 1232 AD: Your Catapult has reduced the defenses of Guangzhou to 34%!
Turn 262, 1232 AD: Karakorum has become unhappy
Turn 262, 1232 AD: Salamanca has grown to size 5
Turn 262, 1232 AD: Asoka converts to Judaism!

Turn 263, 1238 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Madrid!
Turn 263, 1238 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Salamanca!
Turn 263, 1238 AD: X-TeamSGOTM5's War Elephant (8.80) vs Asoka's Archer (4.50)
Turn 263, 1238 AD: Combat Odds: 98.7%
Turn 263, 1238 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 263, 1238 AD: (Plot Defense: +50%)
Turn 263, 1238 AD: X-TeamSGOTM5's War Elephant is hit for 14 (86/100HP)
Turn 263, 1238 AD: Asoka's Archer is hit for 27 (73/100HP)
Turn 263, 1238 AD: Asoka's Archer is hit for 27 (46/100HP)
Turn 263, 1238 AD: Asoka's Archer is hit for 27 (19/100HP)
Turn 263, 1238 AD: X-TeamSGOTM5's War Elephant is hit for 14 (72/100HP)
Turn 263, 1238 AD: Asoka's Archer is hit for 27 (0/100HP)
Turn 263, 1238 AD: X-TeamSGOTM5's War Elephant has defeated Asoka's Archer!
Turn 263, 1238 AD: Your War Elephant has destroyed a Archer!
Turn 263, 1238 AD: X-TeamSGOTM5's War Elephant (8.80) vs Qin Shi Huang's Axeman (5.00)
Turn 263, 1238 AD: Combat Odds: 96.8%
Turn 263, 1238 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 263, 1238 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 263, 1238 AD: (Combat: -25%)
Turn 263, 1238 AD: Qin Shi Huang's Axeman is hit for 26 (74/100HP)
Turn 263, 1238 AD: Qin Shi Huang's Axeman is hit for 26 (48/100HP)
Turn 263, 1238 AD: X-TeamSGOTM5's War Elephant is hit for 15 (85/100HP)
Turn 263, 1238 AD: Qin Shi Huang's Axeman is hit for 26 (22/100HP)
Turn 263, 1238 AD: Qin Shi Huang's Axeman is hit for 26 (0/100HP)
Turn 263, 1238 AD: X-TeamSGOTM5's War Elephant has defeated Qin Shi Huang's Axeman!
Turn 263, 1238 AD: Your War Elephant has destroyed a Axeman!
Turn 263, 1238 AD: You have captured Macau!!!
Turn 263, 1238 AD: You have destroyed the city of Macau!!!
Turn 263, 1238 AD: Your Catapult has reduced the defenses of Guangzhou to 28%!
Turn 263, 1238 AD: Judaism has spread in Beshbalik.
Turn 263, 1238 AD: Qin Shi Huang's Galley (2.00) vs X-TeamSGOTM5's Galley (2.20)
Turn 263, 1238 AD: Combat Odds: 32.2%
Turn 263, 1238 AD: (Plot Defense: +10%)
Turn 263, 1238 AD: X-TeamSGOTM5's Galley is hit for 19 (81/100HP)
Turn 263, 1238 AD: X-TeamSGOTM5's Galley is hit for 19 (62/100HP)
Turn 263, 1238 AD: Qin Shi Huang's Galley is hit for 20 (80/100HP)
Turn 263, 1238 AD: Qin Shi Huang's Galley is hit for 20 (60/100HP)
Turn 263, 1238 AD: X-TeamSGOTM5's Galley is hit for 19 (43/100HP)
Turn 263, 1238 AD: X-TeamSGOTM5's Galley is hit for 19 (24/100HP)
Turn 263, 1238 AD: X-TeamSGOTM5's Galley is hit for 19 (5/100HP)
Turn 263, 1238 AD: X-TeamSGOTM5's Galley is hit for 19 (0/100HP)
Turn 263, 1238 AD: Qin Shi Huang's Galley has defeated X-TeamSGOTM5's Galley!
Turn 263, 1238 AD: While defending, your Galley was destroyed by a Chinese Galley!

Turn 264, 1244 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Madrid!
Turn 264, 1244 AD: Your Catapult has reduced the defenses of Guangzhou to 22%!
Turn 264, 1244 AD: Clearing a Forest has created 44 ? for Salamanca.
Turn 264, 1244 AD: Clearing a Forest has created 44 ? for Salamanca.
Turn 264, 1244 AD: You have plundered 2? from the Farm!

Turn 265, 1250 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Madrid!
Turn 265, 1250 AD: X-TeamSGOTM5's Catapult (5.00) vs Asoka's Archer (5.55)
Turn 265, 1250 AD: Combat Odds: 25.7%
Turn 265, 1250 AD: (Plot Defense: +25%)
Turn 265, 1250 AD: (Fortify: +5%)
Turn 265, 1250 AD: (City Defense: +50%)
Turn 265, 1250 AD: (Hills: +25%)
Turn 265, 1250 AD: (City Attack: -20%)
Turn 265, 1250 AD: Your Catapult has caused collateral damage! (1 Unit)
Turn 265, 1250 AD: Asoka's Archer is hit for 18 (82/100HP)
Turn 265, 1250 AD: X-TeamSGOTM5's Catapult is hit for 21 (79/100HP)
Turn 265, 1250 AD: X-TeamSGOTM5's Catapult is hit for 21 (58/100HP)
Turn 265, 1250 AD: Asoka's Archer is hit for 18 (64/100HP)
Turn 265, 1250 AD: Asoka's Archer is hit for 18 (46/100HP)
Turn 265, 1250 AD: Asoka's Archer is hit for 18 (28/100HP)
Turn 265, 1250 AD: X-TeamSGOTM5's Catapult is hit for 21 (37/100HP)
Turn 265, 1250 AD: Asoka's Archer is hit for 18 (10/100HP)
Turn 265, 1250 AD: Asoka's Archer is hit for 18 (0/100HP)
Turn 265, 1250 AD: X-TeamSGOTM5's Catapult has defeated Asoka's Archer!
Turn 265, 1250 AD: Your Catapult has destroyed a Archer!
Turn 265, 1250 AD: X-TeamSGOTM5's Swordsman (6.60) vs Asoka's Spearman (2.84)
Turn 265, 1250 AD: Combat Odds: 99.6%
Turn 265, 1250 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 265, 1250 AD: (Plot Defense: +25%)
Turn 265, 1250 AD: (Fortify: +5%)
Turn 265, 1250 AD: (City Attack: -55%)
Turn 265, 1250 AD: Asoka's Spearman is hit for 29 (60/100HP)
Turn 265, 1250 AD: Asoka's Spearman is hit for 29 (31/100HP)
Turn 265, 1250 AD: Asoka's Spearman is hit for 29 (2/100HP)
Turn 265, 1250 AD: Asoka's Spearman is hit for 29 (0/100HP)
Turn 265, 1250 AD: X-TeamSGOTM5's Swordsman has defeated Asoka's Spearman!
Turn 265, 1250 AD: Your Swordsman has destroyed a Spearman!
Turn 265, 1250 AD: You have captured Karachi!!!
Turn 265, 1250 AD: You have pillaged 1 ? from the destruction of Karachi!!!
Turn 265, 1250 AD: You have made peace with Asoka!
Turn 265, 1250 AD: You have discovered Code of Laws!
Turn 265, 1250 AD: Your Catapult has reduced the defenses of Guangzhou to 16%!
Turn 265, 1250 AD: X-TeamSGOTM5's Axeman (5.50) vs Isabella's Spearman (2.85)
Turn 265, 1250 AD: Combat Odds: 99.0%
Turn 265, 1250 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 265, 1250 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 265, 1250 AD: (Combat: -50%)
Turn 265, 1250 AD: Isabella's Spearman is hit for 27 (73/100HP)
Turn 265, 1250 AD: X-TeamSGOTM5's Axeman is hit for 14 (86/100HP)
Turn 265, 1250 AD: Isabella's Spearman is hit for 27 (46/100HP)
Turn 265, 1250 AD: Isabella's Spearman is hit for 27 (19/100HP)
Turn 265, 1250 AD: X-TeamSGOTM5's Axeman is hit for 14 (72/100HP)
Turn 265, 1250 AD: Isabella's Spearman is hit for 27 (0/100HP)
Turn 265, 1250 AD: X-TeamSGOTM5's Axeman has defeated Isabella's Spearman!
Turn 265, 1250 AD: Your Axeman has destroyed a Spearman!
Turn 265, 1250 AD: Clearing a Forest has created 44 ? for Salamanca.

A few snapshots in case you don't want to look at the save file right now:

159800

159801

159802

159803

159804

:high5: Sounds like a nice set MP!! :banana:

Nice tech from India. Too bad about Izzie, although it will be nice to take back Libyan, as she took it from our allies! :D

Roster:
RRAU - UP
Frederiksberg - On Deck
Cactus Pete
Leif
Bede
Mad Professor

Off to have a look at the save! :run:

Well played, MP, and the report is a good read.

I saw a Persian WE near Susa during my turn, and Cyrus has not been at war, so we may yet discover a hidden stack. Can you tell us what parts of Persia you left unexplored? Is the power graph consistent with my concern?

Will look at the save in the morning.

I saw a Persian WE near Susa during my turn, and Cyrus has not been at war, so we may yet discover a hidden stack. Can you tell us what parts of Persia you left unexplored? Is the power graph consistent with my concern?

Will look at the save in the morning.

The Keshik was near Persepolis when I started my turnset, and I think Bede had been coming from the south. I checked Persepolis, Pasargardae and Arbela as I noted in my write up. nothing much there and certianly no big stack. Bede did say he saw nothing better defended than Persepolis his turn set, so I presume that means Bactra, Susa and Tarsus are defended similarly to the other cities I saw.

Below is the power graph at the end of my turn set:

159813

Izzy, Asoka and Qin Shi are down to basically nothing, and Tokugawa doesn't have much.

Looking at the save, it seems to me that it is pretty close to decision time concerning how much more war to pursue and whether it is time for domination versus conquest. It is starting to look as though domination may be the faster option at this point? :hmm:

Thinking as I type:

We are at 20% of domination, which means about 22 cities are needed, actually a few more than that depending upon placement because of coasts.

I think we should grab Gangzhou, and Shadong. Once we take Gangzhou, we could try Qin for a tech as it is going to take a few turns to get forces to Shadong to take it.

On the continent, looks like we should take Libyan and the last Indian city. We then have a couple of options. If we think there is enough space now, which there might be, we can begin producing settlers. If we want to gain some more space, Persia has six nice cities to claim; Sidon (on the bridge island) and then Arbela, Pasargadae, Persepolis, Susa and Tyre. That should give us more than enough space!

Using Frederiksberg's little formula, we need about 22 cities, actually a few more due to coastal cities, etc, so let's say 25. There is room for 3 or 4 on the old Arabia home island. In former China, we can take Gangzhou and Shandong and add another two, perhaps three? On the continent, we can take Libyan and India's last city. I f we need more, we could go back and revisit Toku who has built another city near where Kyoto was. To fill in the rest will require another 15 or so Settlers.

If Persia is the paper tiger we think he is, then taking six cities from him would be really nice as long as we can do so fairly quickly.

Can we wrap this up in another two turn sets? :D

Nice work, Professor.

And yes I wandered the Keshik through Cyrus' southern tier, up to Persepolis, and never a War Elephant did I spy, just one or two longbows per town and a spear in each.

I've looked at save and have a few quick thoughts.

When the swordsman arrives, sacrifice the cat to take Ghangzhou and then proceed to raze Shangdong ASAP.

Greece will only give us 70 gold for HBR, so it will have it soon. We might as well get the 70 gold this turn.

Let's move at least 4 of the 5 workers near Mecca to the big island for use as sacrifices, forest chopping , roading, and making general improvements (Salamanca could use another improved tile, for example). They've outlived their usefulness in Arabia.



There is a Persian city of Gordium, which I suspect is NW of Arbela. We need to find it and see if Cyrus has an army hiding there.

The dye tile SW of Turfan has still not been immproved, which is costing us gold.

Further reflections:

If we stay at war with Spain long enough to capture Libyan, we are very likely to lose our fishing net in Madrid. Not a big problem, but it suggests that, while we may want to chop a courthouse in Madrid (and let's use the out-of-boundary forests to the west as well), a work boat and/or a galley may be better builds in Barcelona.

We need to start moving some troops in anticipation of possibly taking Susa (and occuping the ivory squares immediately, even as we bombard the city). If we find Cyrus is holding a large force, then Domination looks less difficult than Conquest, but if he is indeed a "paper tiger," then a march east to west and on to Greece might actually be faster. I wish it were a clearer choice. Bulding 15 settlers is not going to happen quickly, especially if we have to keep money flowing to the treasury.

I'm thinking that by the time Libyan is captured and we extort techs from Spain, we need to know what Cyrus is holding (job for workers/keshiks), and, at that point, let's make a decision on Dom/Conquest. May involve a mid-turn discussion.

Building 15 settlers is not going to happen quickly, especially if we have to keep money flowing to the treasury.
Just ran through our cities and found that we can have 10 Settlers in 9 turns using pop-rushing. Admittedly, the others will require a bit more time, but there is Libyan and Gangzhou that, once captured could probably produce a Settler each. In Karakorum, Turfan and Ning-hsia, we could quickly produce another Settler by pop-rushing again.

It may be faster to acquire a few Persian cities and avoid building some of these settlers? :mischief:

EDIT - I didn't check into chopping, but I think that might speed some of these Settlers up a bit? ;)
While we set up to pop-rush the first, we could be chopping to support the second? :thumbsup:

Nice turn set MP! 7 cities captured or burnt that's a nice statistic! And we got CoL - thats great. Courthouses and artists will be essential for domination. If it doesn't turn out that conquest is faster...


If we stay at war with Spain long enough to capture Libyan, we are very likely to lose our fishing net in Madrid. Not a big problem, but it suggests that, while we may want to chop a courthouse in Madrid (and let's use the out-of-boundary forests to the west as well), a work boat and/or a galley may be better builds in Barcelona.

The fishing net should be safe since the Spanish galley can't travel on the ocean square.

When Delhi comes out of anarchy we can cancel the dye for gems deal and sell our dye to Cyrus for 7 gpt. Chopping and pop rushing a Courthouse in Madrid is probably a good idea since we get 9 gpt out of it. We are getting close to the end of the game so building improvements is probably bad in most cases - except maybe in this one.

I have been thinking if we might want to set up a GA farm - perhaps in Libyan and switch to Caste System with the intention of hiring 3-4 artists there. With 3 artists there we get a GA in 17 turns (and Libyan would get two border expansions). If we put a city in the big empty space on the western part of the continent and set off the culture bomb that should give us 5-6% land from one single city! I was even wondering if we had time (and forests) to chop library and natl. epic somewhere but we lack marble so I doubt it would be finished in time.

Let's move at least 4 of the 5 workers near Mecca to the big island for use as sacrifices, forest chopping , roading, and making general improvements (Salamanca could use another improved tile, for example). They've outlived their usefulness in Arabia.

We have 28 workers! Should we disband some of them? Our Chinese workers can be used for chopping and maybe building some roads on the icy northern part so that our settlers can get there fast should we decide to go for domination. The western part of China has some nice forests so if we build a city there we could probably chop 3 more settlers!! We need lots of workers to do that fast though...

If we could capture Tyre, Susa and Bactra that would help a lot towards domination because they can get 2nd border expansion in 13 turns if we hire 2 artists in each city. I would estimate that they would cover 8-9% land. Together with the 6% from Libyan and Delhi the 6% from the culture bomb and 1% from Barca and Beijing we would be at around 42% land. So we do the China maneuver described above and get another 7% from the 4 settlers up there (After border expansion) and 1.5% from Guangzhou. Now at 50.5%. Building 3 settlers for Arabia will give around 5%. Now at 55.5%. The remaining 9% could come from settling two cities and capturing 3-4 more cities. I think this may be achievable within 30 turns or so.

The demographics chart list us as number 1 in Soldiers 299000 vrs 203000. The interesting thing is when you look at Power graph in just the 50 turn mode most of the AI's are relatively flat, even India which just took a beating.

A picture question about domination:

http://img359.imageshack.us/img359/3447/xteamsg05020zi4.th.jpg (http://img359.imageshack.us/my.php?image=xteamsg05020zi4.jpg)

A picture question about domination:

If any significant land mass was there barbs would have spawned. Anyway the land percentage calculations are done without any assumptions on knowledge of all land.

The fishing net should be safe since the Spanish galley can't travel on the ocean square.

Yes, that galley has been sitting there unmoving for about six or seven turns now, and sailed right past the fishing net to get there. I haven't got the save in front of me now, but I'm fiarly sure Frederiksberg is right - that's an ocean tile that Izzy's galley can't reach.

I have been thinking if we might want to set up a GA farm - perhaps in Libyan and switch to Caste System with the intention of hiring 3-4 artists there. With 3 artists there we get a GA in 17 turns (and Libyan would get two border expansions). If we put a city in the big empty space on the western part of the continent and set off the culture bomb that should give us 5-6% land from one single city!

This is doable, and within the time frame left in the game.


We have 28 workers! Should we disband some of them? Our Chinese workers can be used for chopping and maybe building some roads on the icy northern part so that our settlers can get there fast should we decide to go for domination. The western part of China has some nice forests so if we build a city there we could probably chop 3 more settlers!! We need lots of workers to do that fast though...

These are the kind of calculations we need to be doing now. It would be a shame to have the simple logistics of getting settlers from one place to another slow us down. The forests on the Chinese island do indeed mean extra quick settlers. Let's use them if we are indeed going for domination.

Edit:

Chopping and pop rushing a Courthouse in Madrid is probably a good idea since we get 9 gpt out of it.

Remember the two forests to hte east of Madrid are prechopped, as are the two forests in the fat cross of Barcelona. The chopping for this courthouse could be done quickly and easily. there's even a couple of workers close by Madrid, I seem to remember.

We need to start moving some troops in anticipation of possibly taking Susa (and occuping the ivory squares immediately, even as we bombard the city). If we find Cyrus is holding a large force, then Domination looks less difficult than Conquest, but if he is indeed a "paper tiger," then a march east to west and on to Greece might actually be faster. I wish it were a clearer choice. Bulding 15 settlers is not going to happen quickly, especially if we have to keep money flowing to the treasury.

Conquest will require galleys in the right place at the right time at the west end of the big continent, and they have quite a way to travel to get there, so decision is required soon enough for that.

OK, got it.

On the units you didn't move, did you fortify them or just hit the space bar? (hopes for the spacebar or I might miss some units that are left fortified here and there all about the globe)

Plan:

Asoka: Won't give any techs and only has one unexpanded city...Plan to raze it.

Izzy: Capture and keep Libyan. I know a GA farm was mentioned, but what about irrigating all the flood plains, rice and pasture the cows and use the whip to make settlers there?

Qin Shi: Capture Guanzhou and raze and raze Shangdong then get peace.

Greece: Sell HBR for 70h

Persia: Send a keshik to find Gordium

Home Continent and former Arabian and Chinese lands: start some settlers for domination victory?

Questions: After setting getting rid of Asoka and capturing Libyan and razing the anonymous city next to it, should I position the troops for a campain into Persia? :mischief: Or can we do it without warring with them and go after China and Greece?......Troops would have to walk a lot more to accomplish that, though.

Asoka: Won't give any techs and only has one unexpanded city...Plan to raze it.
MP made peace with Asoka on his 10th turn, so you cannot declare on him during your turn set.

The fishing net should be safe since the Spanish galley can't travel on the ocean square.

I think that I've played games where galleys sailed onto foreign ocean squares. Is this a change, or difference between Warlords and vanilla, or my bad memory?

When Delhi comes out of anarchy we can cancel the dye for gems deal and sell our dye to Cyrus for 7 gpt.

What about selling him sugar as soon as we get peace with Spain, and then switch to dye in 10 turns if we are not at war with him by then?

Chopping and pop rushing a Courthouse in Madrid is probably a good idea since we get 9 gpt out of it. We are getting close to the end of the game so building improvements is probably bad in most cases - except maybe in this one.

Not sure we want to pop rush with four forests to chop.

I have been thinking if we might want to set up a GA farm - perhaps in Libyan and switch to Caste System with the intention of hiring 3-4 artists there. With 3 artists there we get a GA in 17 turns (and Libyan would get two border expansions). If we put a city in the big empty space on the western part of the continent and set off the culture bomb that should give us 5-6% land from one single city!

Now that's an interesting idea. rrau suggests building settlers instead, which is also appealing. My instinct is that the cost of maintaining only one city makes that the better option.

We have 28 workers! Should we disband some of them?

Certainly, not yet, but we do need to employ them effectively. It's not all about fighting.

Our Chinese workers can be used for chopping and maybe building some roads on the icy northern part so that our settlers can get there fast should we decide to go for domination. The western part of China has some nice forests so if we build a city there we could probably chop 3 more settlers!! We need lots of workers to do that fast though...

If we could capture Tyre, Susa and Bactra that would help a lot towards domination because they can get 2nd border expansion in 13 turns if we hire 2 artists in each city. I would estimate that they would cover 8-9% land. Together with the 6% from Libyan and Delhi the 6% from the culture bomb and 1% from Barca and Beijing we would be at around 42% land. So we do the China maneuver described above and get another 7% from the 4 settlers up there (After border expansion) and 1.5% from Guangzhou. Now at 50.5%. Building 3 settlers for Arabia will give around 5%. Now at 55.5%. The remaining 9% could come from settling two cities and capturing 3-4 more cities. I think this may be achievable within 30 turns or so.

Well, that's easier and quicker than I had guessed it would be. Have you got any idea what the maintenace cost would be per turn?

Think we should hold Ghangzhou.

Is religion an option in this game, now that we own 3 Holy Cities? Converting to Bud. would get quick expansion in Dehli (but only 1 other city). Hinduism was the most popular among the cities (5 or 6) but most already have expanded once. I wasn't sure if we could cycle thru the religions trying to pickup some cheap expansions.

I'd leave the settlers all unsettled. We wouldn't want to settle until the last minute when we can MM for gold production in all cities.....If I remember correctly, if we do run out of money, units strike and we lose all but one garrison unit for each town........I haven't gone that bad into neg balance on currency since Civ4 came out, though, so I don't know if we would lose any cities or buildings, too. If all we do is lose our army, it might be worth it to go domination and settle all 20some cities at once and just let our army be disbanded........as long as culture can still accumulate.

If I remember correctly, if we do run out of money, units strike and we lose all but one garrison unit for each town........I haven't gone that bad into neg balance on currency since Civ4 came out, though, so I don't know if we would lose any cities or buildings, too. If all we do is lose our army, it might be worth it to go domination and settle all 20some cities at once and just let our army be disbanded........as long as culture can still accumulate.

As long as we don't want to attack anyone any more, and we're confident no-one is going to attack us...

Units on strike tend to get disbanded a few at a time, though it's not a situation I have played with much either. I've noticed units not in cities tend to go first, and then one defending cities after that. I've never seen a strike result in an undefended city yet.

On the units you didn't move, did you fortify them or just hit the space bar? (hopes for the spacebar or I might miss some units that are left fortified here and there all about the globe)

I think it's mainly workers that may be fortified. You can get an overview of their placement using the military advisor screen.

Izzy: Capture and keep Libyan. I know a GA farm was mentioned, but what about irrigating all the flood plains, rice and pasture the cows and use the whip to make settlers there?


To fill the same area as a culture bombed city you need 3 settlers that is two more than you need with the GA. To support 3 artists we only need two floodplains farmed. One is already farmed and it should be possible to move 5 workers to Libyan fast to farm another floodplain in 2 turns (takes 10 worker turns!). Producing 2 extra settlers in Libyan in the time (17 turns) it takes to get the GA is only possible with heavy whipping and since we are not hiring any specialists we won't get 2nd border expansion there which will cost us an additional 1% of land. Whipping will also be bad for the economy and so will the added maintenance of 3 vs. 1 city. If we need to whip settlers it's better to do it in Madrid. We cant have the GA farm there because we have already "polluted" the GP points with Great Prophet points. Getting a 2nd GP in Beijing is probably not feasible since it would take 25 turns.

Qin Shi: Capture Guanzhou and raze and raze Shangdong then get peace.

I think we should keep Guangzhou. It has a lighthouse and can work coast tiles to pay for maintenance. It will also give us around 1.5% land when borders expand.

Home Continent and former Arabian and Chinese lands: start some settlers for domination victory?

Yes and we are on a tight time schedule. I think we should aim at having the necessary settlers built and in place 20-25 turns from