:mad:
Well, loosing a size 11 city down to a size 2 in 9 turns...thats just silly. What did the dev. think of? This cant be WAD? I meen, how do you poisen a city next to a grand river with fresh water so that 90% of its citizens dies? :lol:

It have happened to me, twice...

Where can I find how many Esp. points I have? (not my foes)

The fact that you can drive a capital down to size 1 is INSANE!

I don't have a problem with poisoned water killing citizens, but I do think there should be diplomatic penalty for getting caught doing it. Trying to kill millions of innocent citizens is an act of state-sponsored terrorism and shouldn't go unpunished by the international community.

Yeah, just few minutes ago I reduced the major city from 15 to 5 in 5 turns!

I do think that maybe after a couple of thousand people have died they might start thinking about not drinking that particular supply of water...

I do think that maybe after a couple of thousand people have died they might start thinking about not drinking that particular supply of water...

... and instead just die from thirst... :goodjob:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=232305

In this thread, we've broken down some of the numbers. No matter how you shake it, Poison Water Supply and Foment Unhappiness are broken-good. We even came up with some alternatives that are easier to balance and scale properly across the speeds. Read it and join in the conversation.

it is a bug on marathon difficulty read about in the bug section

Hasn't anyone modded this yet? I realize that we can wait for Firaxis to push the next patch, but somewhere in the code, two numbers are being multiplied that shouldn't be. Not doing that should be a simple, simple fix. I don't have BTS yet, but I'll poke around once I do.

There is only one number which governs turns *and* power of the effect. You can have 8 turns of 8 or 24 turns of 24 (or 12 turns of 12). Go into the bug forum to see what others already figured out and how it can be modded to at least lessen the effect on marathon.

Edit: Why do I even have to say this? Zoolooman provided a link just three posts above this one.

There is only one number which governs turns *and* power of the effect. You can have 8 turns of 8 or 24 turns of 24 (or 12 turns of 12). Go into the bug forum to see what others already figured out and how it can be modded to at least lessen the effect on marathon.

Edit: Why do I even have to say this? Zoolooman provided a link just three posts above this one.

Yeah, I just read that thread, and it is more complicated to balance, especially given the fact that one population point can die per turn. Still, the code for that stuff isn't going to be terribly complicated, so once a good solution is designed, it should be pretty easy to implement.

For those that said this should carry a hefty diplomatic penalty - I agree.

In some cases this has the same impact on your population as having a nuke dropped on your city.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=232305
requoting since I replied in that thread and its also in the bug forum, I suggest others also post there.

Not having the game, please bear with me:

I've read the other thread and concur that it certainly is an OP tactic on Marathon. It has been expressed that focusing on :food: tiles will help offset the Foment :yuck: to slow the gradual deaths of your population.

How effective does the :culture: slider balance the Foment :mad:? It would seem to me that finding 8 extra :) with the right Luxuries, Markets, Theaters & Colosseum's would require running 2 or 3 notches higher on the Culture slider. Inconvenient, but not breaking. Is it at all effective?

Would placing these in your high pop/caliber cities - along with a Spy to deter - be an effective counter?

easy set the cultural slider high, with alot of Dye. That would easily finish of the Foment Anger.

easy set the cultural slider high, with alot of Dye. That would easily finish of the Foment Anger.

It wouldn't. Since you can't set the cultural slider for an individual city setting it high will cause you too lose massive commerce that you could use for research or money empire-wide.

If you have more than a few cities using the cultural slider to fight spy-formented Anger will lead to worse results than ignoring it.

Essentially what I was getting at. It would seem that having your capital decimated while running Bureaucracy would be more devastating than running your culture slider at 20% (FOR EXAMPLE) and sliding it backward as the Foment :mad: lessens. If it was a less-important border city, I would unfortunately 'let them eat cake'.

I'm just not sure of the timing with regards to Culture multiplying buildings and the arrival of spies with sufficient EPs backing them. Originally I thought I would be altering the XML to lessen the effect of this event, but thinking about a counter brought this solution to mind. I was wondering - with so many number crunchers and advanced play-testers - if the short term Culture raise was the most effective counter...

How has nobody modded this yet?

Aside from Marathon having -wrongfully- tripled the effect of this event, does it HAVE to be modded?

There has been presented two workable solutions for this. If anything should be modded, it is that fact that no other civ in the world seems to care that millions of 'innocents' are being murdered.

Aside from Marathon having -wrongfully- tripled the effect of this event, does it HAVE to be modded?

There has been presented two workable solutions for this. If anything should be modded, it is that fact that no other civ in the world seems to care that millions of 'innocents' are being murdered.

If spy mission is so powerful, there must be thing to counterbalance it. Last night I sent in a legion of spies to my next door civ and just laid waste to all his cities. :goodjob:

So somebody should mod is that it doesn't have as big of an impact as it does right now on the marathon option.

And I think the idea that there is no diplo penalty is that it is a spy and therefore the nationality of it is not known maybe? So they would not know who did the poisoning? I agree though if they are caught then the world should know. I'm sure that can be modded.

From what I can tell, Firaxis doesn't really maintain or support the marathon speed. It was added only after a bunch of people whined. They never bothered balancing it in the first place. I imagine if enough people cry about this one thing, though, they'll fix it.

The properly balanced speeds are quick, normal, and epic.

I don't have a problem with poisoned water killing citizens, but I do think there should be diplomatic penalty for getting caught doing it. Trying to kill millions of innocent citizens is an act of state-sponsored terrorism and shouldn't go unpunished by the international community.

Good point there....spies are really clearly definately without-a-doubt(ly) terrorists....tsk tsk to the developers, promoting terrorism.

On the other hand, as mentioned somewhere else, you CAN provent spies by inscrease ur EP, building courthouses etc., or simply have your spies nearby. Moreover, poisoning water can be prevented (in the late game) by.....urgh.....whatever the thing was called, some building that kills all the polution, same way a global theater nullifies all unhappiness (even when I turn 1 citizen into slave per turn :D) So I guess you CAN keep yourself in good shape.

One big argument for the current system: before now, excessive happiness and health are just wasted. Totally pointless. Now, you will think twice before cutting any forest even if your city is in good shape, since you never know when you gonna need an extra 10 health for poisoning. This will make the difference between conservetive players and the agressive ones even bigger, which I think is good since it drastically created two distinct styles.

Now, as for the penalty, I generally just take the matter into my own hand. When I catch a spy, I return a spy. When I catch a spy in action, I return a :nuke: . :D

1 question and 1 statement:

1- In History, what are the examples of large scale poisoning, killing almost all people in the area (I am not talking about "modern" chemical warfare and nuclear/chemical accidents, but <= 19th century)? Does it make sens to have such fast repetitive killings or is it pure sci-fi?

2- I do not find that Marathon game is long enough as I just feel it is the normal speed, and I would love to have it even longer!!! A "Test Of Time" length (Marathon * 4 ?) would be so nice ... Oooohhh! the dream of having "Alpha Centauri" added after after 2050 ... a kind of Spore Civilization ...

Firaxis suck if they do not support game lengths longer than standard.

Man everyday I read something else that makes me like this company less and less.

Anyone designed a fix for this yet? Since firaxis don't seem to care... This and the stuffed concept of corporations is really pissing me off now that i've played a fair bit :(

If it's to remain in, I think it should have the same diplomatic penalties as nuking.... kind of an ancient world nuke effect. It should also be a damned sight more expensive than it is.... in my first game, I did it (and the foment anger) to every city of my immediate neighbour and had it done to around 4 or 5 of my cities.

Actually, the human is much more able to counter it as we can immediately focus on food to offset some of the loss. From a size 20 city, I was losing down to 12, while my opponents were going all the way to 1.

It does beggar belief how this made it in to the final cut.... but as I keep saying, whether no one agrees with me or not, I personally find the Espionage to be slapped on with little consideration for the game balance.

Let's put it this way.

If you don't play "broken marathon" and don't have Granary in the city you asked for it.

With Granary on normal difficulty, -8 food is not so big deal. You could lose 1 to 2 pop the most.
After all it's -8 first turn, -7 next, etc...

Anyone designed a fix for this yet? Since firaxis don't seem to care... This and the stuffed concept of corporations is really pissing me off now that i've played a fair bit :(
Edit this file:
C:\Program Files\Firaxis Games\Sid Meier's Civilization 4\Beyond the Sword\Assets\XML\GameInfo\CIV4EspionageMissionInfo .xml

Then change:
<iCityPoisonWaterCounter>8</iCityPoisonWaterCounter>
To:
<iCityPoisonWaterCounter>2</iCityPoisonWaterCounter>

This should do it untill it is fixed properly.

Of course, if you play on normal speed, it would make it too easy, just -2food one turn, and -1food next turn.

That is true, but that makes it only "useless” mission compared to “let me eliminate big cities without having to even declare war on them and win that way”.

It’s a band aid only. I am sure Firaxis will fix it soon, so that it works good at any speed.

Hang on, I'm playing Noble and I've had that against me but nothing's happened to my city. Maybe 1 or 2 people lost but I didn't even notice.

Am I missing something here?

It's not the difficulty but the game speed that figures into the relative effect. On slower game speeds - notably Marathon, this mission can kill an enemy capital down to 1 pop.

It's broken at Marathon speed. It can turn capital to size 1 from size 12, so it's quite bad..

Agree with neviden. None of the testers or writers played the game at Marathon speed?

None of them noticed the cities dissapearing to 4000BC size?

Even with a Granary at this level, it can still cause major devastation!

I play at Marathon so this fix should be good. Cheers Neviden.

I play at Marathon so this fix should be good. Cheers Neviden.

I agree wholeheartedly. I don't play marathon myself but I really do feel sorry for you guys. I hope they fix it asap.

Hang on, I'm playing Noble and I've had that against me but nothing's happened to my city. Maybe 1 or 2 people lost but I didn't even notice.

Am I missing something here?

Yeh, I have started a couple games on noble/standard speed. I have had several of my cities poisoned with not to much affect. I have poisoned some of their cities with not to much affect. So, I was beginning to think it a useless strat, hehe. I did forment anger on one capital and dropped it from size 9 to size 1. I thought it was due to me pillaging the crap out of it before the mission. Seems the counter espionage works well, and making sure you keep ahead in EP over your rival. There were 5 civs on my continent in one game and in the 1200's we were all still fighting with axes, I believe a few horseman were starting to show up. Good stuff. I know I truely don't understand the mechanics behind espionage yet, so a few more games might be in order before we go screaming for them to change it. I was affectively countering with just 10% set on the espionage slider. One thing is for sure, just like GP became a large part of the game, now espionage is. Posts all over the place talked about how they wanted a smarter AI, that it was too easy, less handicaps for the AI...blah, blah....now the AI is beating the crap out of you in your first few games and you want it changed? Sorry, I thought it was really good fun.

Edit: Sorry bast, wasn't directed at you, I was agreeing with you and just got into a rant.

To state it clearly again.... difficulty setting has nothing to do with it.... it is the game speed setting that causes the fault.

On Marathon speed, the duration is so greatly magnified that any size (AI) city is going to be reduced to 1 from a single mission.

I don't need to play any more games to know that this is not right. ;)

Edit this file:
C:\Program Files\Firaxis Games\Sid Meier's Civilization 4\Beyond the Sword\Assets\XML\GameInfo\CIV4EspionageMissionInfo .xml

Then change:
<iCityPoisonWaterCounter>8</iCityPoisonWaterCounter>
To:
<iCityPoisonWaterCounter>2</iCityPoisonWaterCounter>

This should do it untill it is fixed properly.

I have never changed anything in programming the game but I play exclusively at marathon speeds and would like to fix this problem (-24 health turn 1???) What exactly will this change do at marathon speed?

This is the 2nd straight expansion that the devs have messed up a Marathon setting game feature.

It really doesn't say well for them. Shame on them.

This is the 2nd straight expansion that the devs have messed up a Marathon setting game feature.

It really doesn't say well for them. Shame on them.

It does look like they playtest marathon (and epic?) less than other speeds which is understandable to some extent as playing a game on marathon takes a lot longer of a tester's time than a game on normal. Yes, this is a serious bug and it should be corrected quickly, but this still looks like perhaps the best expansion I have ever seen.

It does look like they playtest marathon (and epic?) less than other speeds which is understandable to some extent as playing a game on marathon takes a lot longer of a tester's time than a game on normal. Yes, this is a serious bug and it should be corrected quickly, but this still looks like perhaps the best expansion I have ever seen.

It's definitely an awesome expansion, just that it has some really obvious (and almost game-breaking) bugs. They're also very easy to fix, so why don't they release a patch RIGHT NOW and be done with it?

It's definitely an awesome expansion, just that it has some really obvious (and almost game-breaking) bugs. They're also very easy to fix, so why don't they release a patch RIGHT NOW and be done with it?

They're very easy to fix, but fix to what? What are the right values that are perfectly balanced at all speeds? They have to spend at least a little time to figure it out, otherwise they'll have to change it again.

But yes, I think they should make this a priority.

I have never changed anything in programming the game but I play exclusively at marathon speeds and would like to fix this problem (-24 health turn 1???) What exactly will this change do at marathon speed?
Change it to 6 health per 6 turns. Or if you like it you can change it to "3" and get 9 health per 9 turns (i think).

The same thing with unhappines.. if you play marathon, then change:
<iCityUnhappinessCounter>8</iCityUnhappinessCounter>
To:
<iCityUnhappinessCounter>2</iCityUnhappinessCounter>

That should still make it painfull, but not WMD painfull..

I think before I start messing with the sliding scale factor, I'll up the cost or increase the difficulty of completing the mission.

Like I said.. it's only “first band aid” patch, until the proper patch comes along. It changes only the thing that is (unintentionally) broken at marathon. So that anyone could play it like they would play at normal speed until it is officially fixed.

My guess is that they never played marathon games, since they can literally take days to complete. They could of course find lots of free eager players for “final beta” to catch those bugs, but how do they find beta testers that will keep their mouths closed?

They simply ship it out as tested as could be done, and rush patches to fix bugs later..

To state it clearly again.... difficulty setting has nothing to do with it.... it is the game speed setting that causes the fault.

On Marathon speed, the duration is so greatly magnified that any size (AI) city is going to be reduced to 1 from a single mission.

To clarify for myself (and perhaps others): My undertsanding is, at Marathon speed, it isn't necessarily the duration but the modifier that is the problem. That it should be -8 :mad:/:yuck: for 24 turns, not the current -24 for 24 turns.

The problem lies in having the effect 'tick' down appropriately. If Normal loses 1 :mad:/:yuck: per turn (from the original -8), Marathon should lose 1 :mad:/:yuck: per 3 turns.

Most seem to agree that it is the 'correct' setting. Since the turns are scaled longer, the duration should be scaled longer.

It does look like they playtest marathon (and epic?) less than other speeds which is understandable to some extent as playing a game on marathon takes a lot longer of a tester's time than a game on normal. Yes, this is a serious bug and it should be corrected quickly, but this still looks like perhaps the best expansion I have ever seen.

Random Oracle,

In other posts, I have said that this is perhaps the best expansion I have ever seen as well. So no disagreement there.

But again, to register our agreement, these bugs are serious, and I would add game-breaking. No matter how well the rest of the expansion shapes up to be, these bugs/oversights are simply inexcusable--and I would almost say unconscionable. And the fact that Firaxis has still not addressed it says volumes about their concern (or the lack thereof) for gamers.

Change it to 6 health per 6 turns. Or if you like it you can change it to "3" and get 9 health per 9 turns (i think).

The same thing with unhappines.. if you play marathon, then change:
<iCityUnhappinessCounter>8</iCityUnhappinessCounter>
To:
<iCityUnhappinessCounter>2</iCityUnhappinessCounter>

That should still make it painfull, but not WMD painfull..

Thankyou. I would prefer 8 unhealthy/unhappy or 24 turns (losing 1 per 3 turns) but will try this fix. 9 unhealty for 9 turns on marathon is much better and I cannot nuke Paris or London at 1 AD. Never tried to change the programming (I didn't realize it was that easy) but will try tonight.

I am confused (a not unusual state). Can't you use your own spies to kill enemy spies before they do so much poisoning? Why would you let 10 turns or more pass without attacking the enemy spies? Isn't there a 'kill all foreign spies within a certain radius' mission for your own spies?

I am confused (a not unusual state). Can't you use your own spies to kill enemy spies before they do so much poisoning? Why would you let 10 turns or more pass without attacking the enemy spies? Isn't there a 'kill all foreign spies within a certain radius' mission for your own spies?

No. They just have a chance to get caught, and if the enemy has more espionage points than you, the chance is lower :-P Also when the spy poisons wells/angers citizens, it's done, and only thing which mends it is time.

I am confused (a not unusual state). Can't you use your own spies to kill enemy spies before they do so much poisoning? Why would you let 10 turns or more pass without attacking the enemy spies? Isn't there a 'kill all foreign spies within a certain radius' mission for your own spies?

No because they don't know where al the foreign spies are.

Foreign spies can sometimes be caught whilst just browsing around the target civ, but most are caught in the act of espionage.

Change it to 6 health per 6 turns. Or if you like it you can change it to "3" and get 9 health per 9 turns (i think).

The same thing with unhappines.. if you play marathon, then change:
<iCityUnhappinessCounter>8</iCityUnhappinessCounter>
To:
<iCityUnhappinessCounter>2</iCityUnhappinessCounter>

That should still make it painfull, but not WMD painfull..

I found the file last night, double clicked on it and it opened in explorer. Found the lines of interest but could not change the numbers. Could not get the cursor after/before the number to change

I am obviously missing something. How does one do this. I am no programmer but a computer user, can I do this?

madscientist - open the XML file in notepad. You can edit it there, and the updated file will work.

I found the file last night, double clicked on it and it opened in explorer. Found the lines of interest but could not change the numbers. Could not get the cursor after/before the number to change

I am obviously missing something. How does one do this. I am no programmer but a computer user, can I do this?


Right Click

Select "Open With"
Open with Note pad.
You can now edit the file.

Also don't edit the original file. Copy it, and place the copy you intend to mess with in the corresponding folder in your Custom's Assets folder. That's in your My Documents Directory, rather then program files. The game will then use this file (and any other tweaks you make to the game in corresponding files) when loading, but you save the original in case you make a mistake, or want to play multiplayer. Just make sure you place the file in the corresponding directory in your custom assets folder. So if the file you're altering is C:\Program Files\Fireaxis\Beyond The Sword\Assets\XML\foldername\file Then copy the file and place it so that the file you edit goes in C:\My Documents\Games\Fireaxis\Beyond the Sword\Custom Assets\XML\foldername\file

Welcome to modding CIV. You'll find you can easily change alot of things this way, and if you screw up, it's so easy to fix, you just delete the file in your custom assets folder, and the game will use your original in the Program Files directory.

Right Click

Select "Open With"
Open with Note pad.
You can now edit the file.

Also don't edit the original file. Copy it, and place the copy you intend to mess with in the corresponding folder in your Custom's Assets folder. That's in your My Documents Directory, rather then program files. The game will then use this file (and any other tweaks you make to the game in corresponding files) when loading, but you save the original in case you make a mistake, or want to play multiplayer. Just make sure you place the file in the corresponding directory in your custom assets folder. So if the file you're altering is C:\Program Files\Fireaxis\Beyond The Sword\Assets\XML\foldername\file Then copy the file and place it so that the file you edit goes in C:\My Documents\Games\Fireaxis\Beyond the Sword\Custom Assets\XML\foldername\file

Welcome to modding CIV. You'll find you can easily change alot of things this way, and if you screw up, it's so easy to fix, you just delete the file in your custom assets folder, and the game will use your original in the Program Files directory.

Outstanding, thanks!!! So in theory I could change the cost of something like stonehenge to say 10 hammers while I play Ramses II as the only industriouse civ? Sweet.

Outstanding, thanks!!! So in theory I could change the cost of something like stonehenge to say 10 hammers while I play Ramses II as the only industriouse civ? Sweet.

Yep anything in the ...\Assets\XML\... folder can be moded this way. This is one of the main reasons CIV is touted for it's modibility.

I don't think that poison water and foment unhappiness are too overpowing at epic speed. I poisoned AND fomented unhappiness Portugal's capital, at size 23, at the same time, and it only fell to size 19. Maybe it screwed up his economy, I don't know-he may have had to fire a ton of specialists.

This is the 2nd straight expansion that the devs have messed up a Marathon setting game feature.

Marathon was never really a feature of Civilization 4. It was only added in a patch, not the main release. It's not surprising that it receives so little attention.

I know Firaxis reads these forums, though, and I think it would be lame if no one in their testing team catches marathon eventually. (I dunno. Maybe, they added the poison water supply mission at the last minute, and people tested it on normal and epic, but not marathon, and now they're kicking themselves in the ass? That's giving them the benefit of the doubt.) I've seen complaints about poison water supply around a lot, so I think Firaxis will catch on soon enough!

But honestly... the only way to get a truly good "Marathon" speed is to rely on modders. Firaxis seems primarily concerned with streamlining the game, to find the sweet spot between fast MP games and deeper SP games.

(I dunno. Maybe, they added the poison water supply mission at the last minute, and people tested it on normal and epic, but not marathon, and now they're kicking themselves in the ass? That's giving them the benefit of the doubt.) Eh, you find more problems testing many quick games than a few marathon games, ime.
Alex posted in the bug forum that this would be fixed in a coming patch.

Oh man! This poisoning sucks! My city was "razed" from 9 to 2.

Lol! Game is unplayable - damn!

I absolutely hate Poison Water, let me start by saying that.

I also pretty much only play Marathon, since I really like the galacial pace it sets. I've done a pretty good job of preventing espionage against me (certainly better than preventing wars...) but eventually you mess up and a city gets poisoned. There are few things you can do--
--Build a granary. It's not that rough, since Pottery comes early in the game when you've got nothing else to build except units. Units are great, but I don't mind sacrificing two or three units to build a granary... Granaries will up your health, help you recover more quickly, and give you more leeway when you're hit.
--Change Civics. You can't shrink during Revolution times, so unless you're Spiritual you can swap civics around to something better and buy yourself three or four turns of freedom.
--Whip it good. If people are going to die from unhealthiness anyway, may as well turn them into something useful, right? Besides, reducing the population also reduces the unhealthiness for everyone who's left in the city.
--Focus on food. Obvious and needs no explanation.
--Nuke the SOBs right back and send Dr. Cavalry on a house call.

Thanks to Solver, this has been temporarily fixed (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=235067)! :goodjob:

Follow the link in the first post to Apolyton to get the patch!