Round 0: In the Beginning (4000 B.C.)
Round 1: Land Grab! (4000-2600 B.C.)
Round 2: Too Slow? (2600-1120 B.C.)
Round 3: The Fall of Rome (1120-375 B.C.)
Round 4: Back to Normal (375 B.C.-400 A.D.)
Round 5: The Setting of the Sun King (400-920 A.D.)
Round 6: Adios, Isabella (920-1110 A.D.)
Round 7: Lightning War? (1110-1220 A.D.)
Round 8: Wars of Annihilation (1220-1540 A.D.)
Round 9: The First Elizabethan War (1540-1615 A.D.)
Round 10: On Safari (1615-1735 A.D.)
Round 11: Age of the Panther (1735-1806 A.D.)
Round 12: Afrika Korps (1806-1840 A.D.)

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/Civ4ScreenShot0211.jpg

In this game, we will be playing as Frederick in the Earth 18 Civs scenario (which everyone should have access to, under "Play a Scenario"). Germany on this map traditionally takes on the role of buffer between the small but influential civilizations of Europe (France, England and Spain) and the west Asian superpowers (Persia, Russia, and we'll throw Egypt in here, too). Greece, Rome, Mali and Arabia also fall into Germany's sphere of influence, but on this map they tend to be peripheral characters at best.

History will teach us, of course, that being surrounded by powerful neighbors tends to suck. Just ask Poland. Therefore, we will not stand idly by as our neighbors pick us apart bit by bit over the course of centuries. Instead, we will reach out and take what is rightfully ours! By what right do we claim, well, everything? Let's see. Might makes right. That's a start. We'll make the rest up as we go along.

So, long story short, our goal is to play as Germany and seek a domination win.

Anyway, here's our starting position:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/Civ4ScreenShot0212.jpg

Frederick's settler starts one tile from the coast, which is no good at all. We could move 1 N and grab those two pigs and a wheat, or move 1 NW and grab the same plus whatever's hidden in the fog (This is Europe, so it's bound to be worth grabbing). Moving west will put us closer to France, which is both a good thing (in terms of military proximity) and a bad thing (in terms of cultural pressure and eventual city overlap).

Then again, Germany never has been much of a naval power, so maybe we should move inland, to the south, both to put us closer to Rome and to give us more land tiles with which to get our wehrmacht started. We have a scout that needs our attention first. Move him onto that forested hill to see what we can see? Or check out the east?

Move scout E->SE or NE and settler W and post a screenie. ( Just to get a better picture. I wouldn't settle in place anyway ( I hate 1 offcoast starts )). My bet would be 1 S of your starting location

I did not check the first one, but shall follow this. Nice idea, as I am into Earth maps too;)

Scout 1S 1SW.
Settler 1S and found the city there.

Research: BW, Agriculture, AH.
Production: Worker first, then grow to happy cap while building Warriors, then start pumping out Settlers.

Long-term I'd try quick initial Settler spam. Germany should have some sweet land + we are Organized. Get yourself nice 6-8 cities (do you have that much reasonable spots?), then give your SE a go. No axe-rushing, wait for cats. By this time, we'll probably get a Holy City from Izzy and hopefully some wonders from Louis. :D

You don't want to move west -- you're already overlapping Paris where you are. Either 1N or 1S, with 1S giving better eventual dotmapping and final production, but 1N giving better initial terrain with tons of food.

We are allowed to know stuff about the map beforehand, right?

I did not check the first one, but shall follow this. Nice idea, as I am into Earth maps too;)

Scout 1S 1SW.
Settler 1S and found the city there.

Research: BW, Agriculture, AH.
Production: Worker first, then grow to happy cap while building Warriors, then start pumping out Settlers.

Long-term I'd try quick initial Settler spam. Germany should have some sweet land + we are Organized. Get yourself nice 6-8 cities (do you have that much reasonable spots?), then give your SE a go. No axe-rushing, wait for cats. By this time, we'll probably get a Holy City from Izzy and hopefully some wonders from Louis. :D

If we get more than two cities built before we're closed in, we'll be lucky. Remember that, on this map, Berlin's fat cross is about the size of Germany on a real map. Cathy is off to the east, and she tends to expand in our direction, and every other way to go has a capital or two within 6 squares.

Let the other fools build cities -- we build axes and get the cities thrown in for free!

I do agree on the tech path, though.

I agree that 1S is probably best. city 2 should net you copper, wherever it may be( i don't have any of the resources memorized), i'm thinking it might be se of start. then use a third city (if you have time) to place on the northern coast. Suggested tech path sounds good.

Germany is in an interesting position on this map, in online play the Germans and the mongols are both always eliminated quickly due to the fact they start with scouts. My advice

1. Build up axes, France is your first target because Louis's culture is really suffocating at times. Next is Rome, then Greece and Spain, then build up a bit of a navy to finish off Europe with England, by this time you should be emerging as a world power alongside Persia, Egypt, Russia, India and China with Arabia, Mali, Japan, Mongolia and the America civs as minor powers. Last time I played freddy I had this fully done about the time that muskets started showing up. You can do it faster if you keep pressing your advantage.

2. Hit Russia first, as they are the closest. Move from there to Persia, Arabia, then Egypt. From there, take out Mali and consolidate control of Africa and Europe/the middle east, fill in and power up. I was about done here when I got infantry

3. Rush through India and China and you are the master of the world with only a few insects left alive, crush em or work around them, your choice.

I'll second Quornix's question: we're allowed to know about the map beforehand, right? If not, don't read the rest of my post! :D

Move the scout NW to grab the hut in Belgium before Louis gets there, move the settler 1S and settle - it leaves room for a nice double-pig city to the NW (which Louis will probably build for you while you build axes), as well as a city NE which makes any cottage-spammer green with envy.

Grabbing the Belgium hut also gives you a chance at the hut SE of Berlin before Alex or Ceasar get to it - but only if the AI's random fog-clearing goes your way.

Germany starts with two *HUGE* advantages over the rest of western Europe - you get copper, and room to REX to a 2nd or 3rd city while you're whipping/chopping/building axemen.

I would leave England alone, only because you and Liz will probably both end up with whatever religion Isabella nabs, and financial Lizzie makes for a great trading partner. Sure, the cultural pressure will limit Paris a bit, but Paris is still a tasty production city without the NW part of the fat cross.

BTW, I only know any of this because I started a Freddie 18-civ earth map game last night. The King of the World series inspired me to try out the huge 18-civ earth map, which I had never considered doing before.

Oh, I know everything I need to know about what's where. The problem is, I'm conflicted as to whether we should "know" about the map in our discussions.

On the one hand, the map is the same every time we play it, so eventually, it's going to be impossible to plead ignorance. On the other, I'd like to use this series not only to play a game online and glean the advice of more experienced players, but also to raise awareness of what I think is a really cool map.

Part of the appeal, of course, is knowing what's coming and planning accordingly. Are you the Mongols? Don't worry, you'll have horses, but you'll have to fight for decent city sites. Are you France? You'll be dealing with Germany, Spain and England. Are you the Aztecs? You won't have iron, but your unique unit takes that into account. You get the picture.

What do you all think? Should we do away with omniscience-speak? Should we just say what we all know anyway? Should we put things like that in spoiler tags, like this:
The reason I brought up 1 NW is to snag some cows for the capitol, too. That would be an ungodly food city!
? Personally, I feel that since the map is pretty much open, we should say what we want, but if anyone has a problem with that, I'm willing to acquiesce.

The reason I brought up 1 NW is to snag some cows for the capitol, too. That would be an ungodly food city!
? Personally, I feel that since the map is pretty much open, we should say what we want, but if anyone has a problem with that, I'm willing to acquiesce.

Yeah, but you'll catch those cows if you go 1N, while if you go 1S, you can get them and build on the pigs. Anyway, you'd miss the copper in the fat cross at 1NW

No problem either way for me.

We moved the Settler 1W and the Scout E-NE and...

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/Civ4ScreenShot0213.jpg

Cows! Two pigs, a cow, AND a wheat would put St. Louis (from KotW #1) to shame. But you all are right. Too many issues with having Louis right there. So... SE of the current location, then?

"There is no map problem that a few Axemen can't solve."

I'm playing a semi shadow game in Vanilla. Are Frederick's Traits the same in Warlords or different? I have Creative and Philosophical.

This is going to be interesting. Since Europe is going to be crowded quick expansion is going to be incredible important. Use all the knowledge of the map since it is going to be hard anyway. This will start to look as always war soon ;)

Ahem, on a map THAT crowded, an axeman rush probably should not be skipped.:blush:
I had a vague idea that Huge map should have larger Europe, but...nevermind.

Take out rome, followed by greece, then france and spain(spain will probably give you a religious holy city) finally look to the east. Always secure your flank first! I know some people want to just go marching to china right off the bat, but that's not going to work. The distance will cause logistical nightmares, not to mention that someone will be right under your nose to attack you at all times (rome and greece).

AThousandYoung: In Warlords, Creative gets swapped out for Organized. Which is better for the establishment of a pan-Eurasian empire, but it will make Louis' culture a problem in the short term, especially once he gets a few Wonders up. Of course, taking those wonders is the whole point of letting him live for a while, so I can't complain...

"There is no map problem that a few Axemen can't solve."

:lol: :lol: :lol:
Best. Point. EVAR.
Jet for Diplomatic victory.

Jet is loosely quoting Dr Eimer's statement that had been for a long time in the ALC man sig... but is not completely right: try to solve isolation with a axe rush.... :p :lol:

On topic: Second city and BW are top priorities. Europe is cramped and the one that gets axes first will have decisive advantage. I agree with finishing first the guys with early UU, especially the Romans ( greeks should be destroyed too )

1SE (since you took the free move to the west). Copper is in the small square there, so you can make Rome your second city. You start with mining, so go Worker/Worker/Axeman.

I just checked the map, and I think you'll need a road to use the copper, so tech Wheel/BW and road up your resources and battle path before picking up the copper. You will want to use the Mine command rather than chopping then mining the copper -- the chopped hammers can then go to an axe rather than something else.

Perhaps Worker/Worker/Barracks/Axeman for your build order.

1SE (since you took the free move to the west). Copper is in the small square there, so you can make Rome your second city. You start with mining, so go Worker/Worker/Axeman.

I just checked the map, and I think you'll need a road to use the copper, so tech Wheel/BW and road up your resources and battle path before picking up the copper. You will want to use the Mine command rather than chopping then mining the copper -- the chopped hammers can then go to an axe rather than something else.

Perhaps Worker/Worker/Barracks/Axeman for your build order.

What the heck!!! How do YOU know where copper is??????

Cheers.

What the heck!!! How do YOU know where copper is??????

Cheers.
I've played on Earth before? Knowledge of the map is one of the benefits of playing on the Earth map. Last game, we knew the Aztecs wouldn't have any access to metals, and that the Americans would likely only have Iron, (copper was up in New England/Canada) so we went with a fast Jaguar rush.

I'll go back and spoiler it, though. Neal didn't seem to care either way.

EDIT: Although you might want to do the same in your quote of me.

You guys are jerks :) Yeah, it's a little ridiculous pretending not to know what we saw clear as day in the previous game. If someone takes offense at seeing the EARTH map spoiled, they're kind of missing the point. So say what you will.

edit: Oh, I should be playing the first round tonight.

In this round, we took a bit of a short-term disadvantage for a long-term advantage.

First off, since we're no longer going to pretend that we don't know what the map looks like, I took back that scout move and sent him west. It's our only way to nab that hut in Denmark. My apologies to the purists out there.

We founded Berlin in the consensus site to the south:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/Civ4ScreenShot0215.jpg

As you can see, we started on a warrior (to grow the city) and Bronze Working (for obvious reasons).

Our scout did indeed beat ol' Louis to the hut:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/Civ4ScreenShot0218.jpg

As you can see, the French warrior is two spaces away (two spaces we wouldn't have had with the original scout move). We received a little bit of gold. Nothing special, but I'll take it. It's better than a map.

We then sent that scout rocketing into the icy north and, somehow, beat the Russkies to a hut in Sweden:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/Civ4ScreenShot0219.jpg

As you can see from the screenshot, yes, we went Settler over Worker for the second build. Unfortunately, if you go Worker first, it's almost impossible not to get beaten to your second city site. I don't like it (it results in an awful lot of raw tiles being worked), but I don't see an easy alternative.

That hut was a gem:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/Civ4ScreenShot0220.jpg

I'll take free Agriculture any day.

We then sent the scout east, to meet as many people as possible before being eaten by a bear (a pretty grim job description, I'll be the first to admit). He won a couple of fights against wolves, taking Combat I in the hopes of maybe seeing service as a medic. Then, improbably, he found this east of Moscow:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/Civ4ScreenShot0222.jpg

Yowza! Getting three huts as a Eurasian civ is quite a coup on this map!

What was in that hut, you ask?

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/Civ4ScreenShot0223.jpg

The newly christened Dr. Scout beelined back home. He was now far too valuable to risk in the dark woods of eastern Europe.

Berlin completed its settler and immediately started on the long-delayed worker. The settler immediately founded city #2:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/Civ4ScreenShot0224.jpg

After a couple of turns, Berlin whipped its worker to completion. I want to get a barracks completed before starting on axes, and Berlin's back down to a single pop, so I started the worker on farming the wheat before mining the copper. Maybe a mistake, maybe not. Hamburg started on a Warrior, both for growth and to give it that all-important early protection (I trust Cathy about as far as I can throw her- even a single club guy is better than nothing).

So here's the map as far as we know it in 2600 B.C.:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/Civ4ScreenShot0225.jpg

We're going to be a little late to the rush party, but not horribly so. Worse comes to worst, we can always crush Caesar's mine first if he's got his Iron hooked up. At this point, how many Axes do you all think we'll need? 5? 10?

Oh, and the save (I can post saves again! At least until they start getting huge):

5 axes to get it going while continuously pumping out more via chops and whips. quick striking is of the essence. I can't believe that not only does louis have masonry, but he's already managed to build 2 quarries in his spare time!! Oh, and chop the forest on that copper to rush the barracks (i'm sure you were going to anyway)

Well, this being Monarch, I do believe the AIs start with a worker. And you know how much Louis loves his wonders, so it makes sense that Masonry would be a priority for him.

Well, lookey there. You have copper :)

Sorry about that. I forgot this was an earth map.

Axe Rush all the way!

Cheers.

I'd say 6 or 7 axes and see if you cann't preposition to steal a worker quickly.

Started an 18 civ monty game yesterday after reading some of the post. Hadn't played vanilla in so long I'd forgotten about the map.

Who to hit first? France:)

King of the Castle Hayne :king:

I just replayed freddy on earth just to get some insight for this game. You want to axe rush ASAP, with your initial 5-6 axes you can take out france and spain easily, a few more and you have Rome and greece, and a few galleys and you've got England. BetterAI fixes this though, annoying as fast landgrabs early on are key to all of my tactics :(

After seeing that you built a settler, rather than going straight for the axe rush, I decided to play my own. I finished my first CR axe at ~2450 BC, and by ~2000 [EDIT: 1650, actually. I just exited the game to install BTS and wanted to double check], I had wiped out the Romans, and moved in on Greece. :p And my scout got a map (:rolleyes:) from the first hut, and eaten by something or other before reaching the second.

Definitely try to take out Caeser before he gets praets! He had slavery up before I'd finished BW myself (wheel-BW-AH, worker/barracks/axes), so you may not have much time. And you still need the wheel to connect the copper, for both cities. It's on the wrong river, I think. Do you need a road for adjacent resources? I always assumed so, but wasn't sure.

Don't chop the forest over the copper. Mine it directly, and any overflow from the barracks can go into a axe, since you'll have copper when the chop hits.

6 axes should be fine for Rome, but the second city he'll found on the hill on Italy's toe could be rough going if you lose a few taking it.

I actually think Louis is better to pound into dirt first so you can mitigate London's culture-push on Paris - then Isabella - then Rome. So what if he has Praet's at that point? Axes plus axes plus axes (and maybe some axes) being cranked out by three capital cities and two settled cities *better* be able to lay the slapdown on some praetorians.

Remember that pre-catapult, the best weapon against a praetorian is multiple axemen, especially if you plan your promotions for a few +25% vs. melee axemen when you tank Isabella.

Either way, though, you should end up with Paris, Madrid, and Rome all pre-construction if you play your cards right, so I don't suppose it really matters. :D

In my game I had a Scout get picked up by Louis' cultural borders and spit out the other side between Spain and Rome. It was funny.

I can see why Germany and Italy seem to team up a lot IRL. They don't have access to one another due to the Alps but are able to coordinate against a third party well.

You should've built on copper so u can slave/chop rush axe army incredibly fast before europe has archers, on my earth game i just finished same settings as yours for my german domination win, i took paris madrid and athens with axes and waited for sword and cats for rome and russia (just make sure u camp or kill rome asap so he doesnt get prae's). you are best off running a specialist economy as a domination victory requires constant conquering/colonizing of new land so i would prioritize pyramids after the rush.

For long term you want to prioritize military units with speed (knights cavalry and panzers) taking the world with macemen rifles cannons and infantry is just way to time consuming. In my domination victory i had all of europe and russia by knights and had all of egypt and mid east with cavalry. Asia and africa got to suffer a stack of 50+ panzers.

In this round, I think the faults in my early gambit are revealed.

In the early round, we learned two very important things:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/Civ4ScreenShot0214.jpg

First, France has founded a Denmark city that we were going to want anyway. So that's a good thing.

Secondly, Caesar now possesses the secret of Bronze Working. That is not.

Nevertheless, the rush must go on. Julie doesn't have copper, so that just puts us on the clock for his research of Iron Working.

In 2360, we sent Dr. Scout down to peek across the borders, and...

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/Civ4ScreenShot0226.jpg

Lovely. Two archers. Easy pickings, assuming we can get our axemen ready in time.

I think it took too long. Getting the copper hooked up, followed by 3 or so turns per axe, resulted in our forces finally being ready in 1120 B.C.:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/Civ4ScreenShot0227.jpg

I declared war and.... surprise!

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/Civ4ScreenShot0228.jpg

Rome has Iron hooked up. Thankfully, it looks like it was just hooked up. The problem is, Rome is now staffed with five CGI bowmen and a spear. Behind a wall. Our eight axemen might be enough to break that city with a litle luck, but probably not. Especially since Rome will probably start rushing units now that hostilities have been initiated.

Honestly, if this were an offline game, this is where I'd learn from my mistakes and start over. I think the second city was a mistake. And I think that for a true rush we should've settled on the copper. As you could see, had we been able to field a force 1000 years earlier, Rome would have been woefully unprepared. Now it's bristling with defenses. We could've used Rome as city #2.

But, this is an online game, and I have the benefit of the hive mind. Can any of you see a way out of this? Here's the save:

Exactly how many Archers does Caeser have fortified in Rome? Does he have any other Praetorians than the one fortified on the hill? What promotions do they all have?

I had a similar experience. I went for Rome with like 6 Axes vs his 2 Archers. Declare War, and all of the sudden Rome is garrisoned with massive numbers of troops. This is with Vanilla, Better AI, and the Medieval Weapons mod.

If that Preat is the only one, march straigth to Rome. I doubt that it will reinforce the city ( or even attack you across the river ). Now that Rome has 4+ archers ,things can get ugly, but you can't go back or it can be even worse to you ( I don't think that you want to be Preat rushed, do you? :p )

P.S Romans have any other city?

Five City Garrison Archers and a Spearman. I could push for that fortified Praetorian and deny Rome her Iron, but those CG Archers will take 2 or 3 Axemen apiece to dislodge.

Five City Garrison Archers and a Spearman. I could push for that fortified Praetorian and deny Rome her Iron, but those CG Archers will take 2 or 3 Axemen apiece to dislodge.
Nuts. You'll need at least a couple more Axes if you want to take Rome, then. You should either punt and start over again (Perhaps as a different leader) or go for the Praetorian and the Iron. Take that hill and hold it while you bring in some extra axes.

Is that Rome tile on a hill?

Either way, you could either pillage everything around Rome and block him from using any production tiles. Alternatively you could leave 1 or 2 Axes on the chokepoint forest hill and use the rest on France. You could even sort of do both, pillaging northern Italy on your way to France. In that case I wouldn't leave any axes on the chokepoint yet, just send them all through and defend the chokepoint with reinforcements.

Head east into Russia instead. It sucks to have a negative modifier with Cathy, but everything else nearby is capitals with culture bonuses and walls. I think that Moscow's far enough away that you should be able to pick up a few cities that aren't capitals, but make good chop -> commerce cities.. Head back to take out France, Spain, Rome, and Greece once you've got catapults and maybe swords.

At this point, you MUST expand. Europe is no longer a soft target, so fight where you'll win.

...go for the Praetorian and the Iron. Take that hill and hold it while you bring in some extra axes.

I agree with this, take the iron hill, and choke rome until you bring more axes. Also, is Rome on a hill or not? That could kinda make or break it...

Rome is not on a hill. Which is the only reason I still hold out hope.

I propose plan B: Leave rome alone for now. pillage every tile rome has without hesitation. Kill anything that leaves the city onto flat land. If you can't take rome yet, cripple them for later. Get construction asap while rome is trying to recover(Ideally beelining it while using your axes to pillage all tiles, and leave them in the roman borders throughout the time you are researching to prevent rome from re-hooking up their iron. You may have been too late to take the city at this stage, but you can keep him on ice until your ready.)then come back with about 8-10 cats. I think you made a mistake in building so many axes. with only 5 at start you could have done better. Remember, your cities will continue producing re-inforcements throughout the war, so speed was of the essence. that's over now, so this is the plan that i propose.

Fortify 2 axes on the wooden hill you are standing on already, use some others to pillage... ...hid your main army just outside his visible range... ....very likely he will send out some defenders to stop you, then strike for him

OR

leave Rome alone and try out Greece...

Greece never seems strong on the world map and so attack them .. Russia is too far IMO and will drive your maintenance up + Cathy is probablly strong.

I propose plan B: Leave rome alone for now. pillage every tile rome has without hesitation. Kill anything that leaves the city onto flat land. If you can't take rome yet, cripple them for later. Get construction asap while rome is trying to recover(Ideally beelining it while using your axes to pillage all tiles, and leave them in the roman borders throughout the time you are researching to prevent rome from re-hooking up their iron. You may have been too late to take the city at this stage, but you can keep him on ice until your ready.)then come back with about 8-10 cats. I think you made a mistake in building so many axes. with only 5 at start you could have done better. Remember, your cities will continue producing re-inforcements throughout the war, so speed was of the essence. that's over now, so this is the plan that i propose.
That could work, but it's risky - if you declare peace in the meantime, he'll just rebuild the iron and we're back to square one. If you don't, then you have to pay maintenance costs for those units outside of your territory, and you can't use them in your war against France.

If you're going to occupy Italia for any length of time, I would suggest moving at least a portion of your army out back into your territory to save maintenance costs. Leave at least one or two Axes down there, of course, to keep Caeser from hooking up the Iron.

At this point, if you want to go on, I think you really only have two options: Either build a lot more Axemen (You'll probably need three or four more, plus replacements for however many you lose taking out the Praetorian) or you can tech to catapults while keeping Rome down and keep Caeser from hooking up his iron. Your call Neal.

That could work, but it's risky - if you declare peace in the meantime, he'll just rebuild the iron and we're back to square one. If you don't, then you have to pay maintenance costs for those units outside of your territory, and you can't use them in your war against France.

If you're going to occupy Italia for any length of time, I would suggest moving at least a portion of your army out back into your territory to save maintenance costs. Leave at least one or two Axes down there, of course, to keep Caeser from hooking up the Iron.

At this point, if you want to go on, I think you really only have two options: Either build a lot more Axemen (You'll probably need three or four more, plus replacements for however many you lose taking out the Praetorian) or you can tech to catapults while keeping Rome down and keep Caeser from hooking up his iron. Your call Neal.

Good point. He wouldn't need his entire army of axes, to reduce unit costs, but the idea is basically the same. harass and hound him, keep the iron from getting hooked up, and leave his workers hostage inside the cities.

Good point. He wouldn't need his entire army of axes, to reduce unit costs, but the idea is basically the same. harass and hound him, keep the iron from getting hooked up, and leave his workers hostage inside the cities.
Yep. The key is to keep him from building more Praetorians, if he gets a couple of those fortified in Rome, we're sunk.

If Caeser keeps the level of 5 Archers the same, I'm thinking 15-16 axes should do it total. I don't know if that is doable, but it's worth a shot. If the attack fails miserably, there's always other leaders.

I think the biggest issue right now is that we've pretty much declined having an economy in favor of the rush on Rome. Rome has to fall, one way or another, or we've wasted so much in the way of time and resources that continuing would be an exercise in frustration.

Thankfully, while building up our axemen of doom, I set us on a beeline to Construction. We have Writing and Mathematics, and Construction is on the way. Hamburg is building a library, both for that all-important culture pop and so that we can run a scientist or two. Hopefully, that will make Construction happen sooner rather than later, and we can get our cats rolling.

So, does that sound like a plan? Trash Rome's infrastructure, deny her production, and try to get some Catapults in here? Or would that take too long? I'll probably end up playing the next round tonight or tomorrow, so I look forward to your input.

I think the biggest issue right now is that we've pretty much declined having an economy in favor of the rush on Rome. Rome has to fall, one way or another, or we've wasted so much in the way of time and resources that continuing would be an exercise in frustration.

Thankfully, while building up our axemen of doom, I set us on a beeline to Construction. We have Writing and Mathematics, and Construction is on the way. Hamburg is building a library, both for that all-important culture pop and so that we can run a scientist or two. Hopefully, that will make Construction happen sooner rather than later, and we can get our cats rolling.

So, does that sound like a plan? Trash Rome's infrastructure, deny her production, and try to get some Catapults in here? Or would that take too long? I'll probably end up playing the next round tonight or tomorrow, so I look forward to your input.

I still say you should go after Catherine. Her border is next to Hamburg, and she likes to expand early. You should be able to pick up three or four cities with the losses you can expect on Rome alone. While your axes are getting you an Eastern Empire, you can build some infrastructure, then start building the cats to focus on the capitals of Europe. Head to CoL while building the cats, and you should be able to handle the upkeep.

"Quinctili Vare, legiones redde!"
-Augustus Caesar

Before there was Germany, there was Germania. A bunch of grubby people with axes that hated Rome and all it stood for. Of course, in our history, they hated Rome largely because Rome was expanding its influence via its legions into Germania.

In this game, we hate Rome because it's not as soft a target as we'd like it to be. The foul-tempered Axe guy part is the same, though.

To begin, we got right down to the business of denying Rome her Iron:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/Civ4ScreenShot0229.jpg

It was more difficult than it should have been because of that stupid river that chops Italy in half. Two units' worth of Axemen died dislodging those pesky Praetorians.

Once that was done, it was just a matter of keeping Caesar from building reinforcements while I worked feverishly on my own:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/Civ4ScreenShot0231.jpg

Wooo! Axe party in Italy! We even pillaged a few gold that would help keep our economy afloat for a while longer.

We got our libraries up and running rather quickly, in order to finish Construction. This had a nice little side benefit:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/Civ4ScreenShot0232.jpg

Ever since I installed Warlords, it seems like the "order" of Great People is jumbled. Ah, well. My plan was to build an Academy in Berlin, both for culture and to boost our capitol in the future (Once we have some more production cities, Berlin is going to be a scientist mecca). He could lightbulb Alphabet, though, which would be crucial to backfilling some techs (The Construction beeline would give us Mathematics, which the AI seems to usually wait on).

We went straight to the unusually pensive Alexander, who didn't even have Writing yet:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/Civ4ScreenShot0234.jpg

And temporarily halted our trading there (nobody was being especially generous with their offers).

In 550 B.C., it was time. Say it's impatient on my part, Say it's a prudent gamble, say that the money was going to run out before Catapults came onto the scene, but we couldn't wait any longer:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/Civ4ScreenShot0235.jpg

I won't lie to you: We were absurdly lucky in our attacks. We won at least three 16% battles. Rome was reduced to a handful of heavily injured defenders:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/Civ4ScreenShot0237.jpg

We had about ten Axemen in all left, most of which were severely injured. All of them, though, qualified for promotion to CR2, which healed them enough to get right back into action.

Oh, lest I forget, our advanced tactics (Throw Axemen at Bad Guy) encouraged the finest military minds of our age to flock to Berlin's banner:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/Civ4ScreenShot0236.jpg

I settled him in the capitol for the ability to pump out 2-promotion units.

As promised, the following turn:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/Civ4ScreenShot0239.jpg

Rome is ours! About 1500 years too late, but it's ours. Julius Caesar retreated to his winter palace in the southern tip of Italy, and, after a few turns to heal, our Axemen would be in hot pursuit.

Shortly thereafter, Isabella came to me with an offer I found it difficult to refuse:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/Civ4ScreenShot0241.jpg

Honestly, everyone's gonna have Writing pretty soon, anyway, so we may as well get what we can for it. Oh, and one more thing about our ravishing Spaniard: How in Sid Meier's name did she not snag a religion!? She's almost not even worth conquering without a shrine. And speaking of religion, our lack of one is wreaking havoc both on our happiness (I'm having to run our cities with skeleton crews) and our cultural borders. Won't someone spread your beliefs to us? Please?

Alexander came back and showed us just what that magic metal was that allowed Rome to build those armored brutes:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/Civ4ScreenShot0242.jpg

As our workers got back to work rebuilding Rome's ravaged infrastructure, we sent our newly refreshed soldiers out to conquer the rest of the peninsula:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/Civ4ScreenShot0243.jpg

Our CR2 and CR3 Axes against unpromoted Archers? Piece of cake. We just studied up on our Advanced Military Tactics (Throw Axemen at Bad Guy) and...

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/Civ4ScreenShot0244.jpg

Oh. Unfortunately, our run of luck seems to have run out. We're pretty low on Axemen now, and we might be starting to look like a target for Louis or Catherine. So I negotiated a truce with Caesar (He wouldn't give us anything, but he wasn't being belligerent about things, either).

Here's Germany proper in 365 B.C.:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/Civ4ScreenShot0245.jpg

And the Roman territory:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/Civ4ScreenShot0246.jpg

I guess the plan is to stock up on Catapults and finish Caesar followed by a strike on Louis, whose culture is now becoming a major concern. We're still screwed, mind you, but I think we may be starting to scrape our way out of our early hole.

My biggest concern is that I don't think Antium is Rome's last city. If you look at the screenshots of the ill-fated attack on that particular fortress-city, you'll see that Rome's borders turn southward somewhere in North Africa. I think Caesar may have snuck a Settler across the Mediterranean.

Which isn't really that much of a big deal, except for the fact that Rome (and Antium, should we be able to take it) will still suffer from "Motherland" unhappiness. Assuming Caesar's or Louis' borders don't swallow Rome up first, anyway (hence the Drama research- Well, that and the ability to buy happiness).

Of course, there's also the fact that, honestly, I think the assault on Rome should have failed miserably. Please believe me when I tell you that I didn't reroll and load to get that result, but I still feel guilty that it worked.

So I'm kind of ambivalent about this game. On the one hand, we're in a bad spot, and we should by all rights be in an even worse one. On the other, though, I have nobody to blame for the sorry state of the game but myself, and I'd hate to abandon what could be a winnable scenario.

So, yeah. After all's said and done, Germany's much harder on this map than I gave it credit for. I thank you all for all the help and support you've given me so far. Without you guys I'd've started over long ago. Here's the save:

Take France?

I'm totally puzzled. Why on earth didn't you settle on the copper? Sure it's not a MP game, but this seems a bit strange. Furthermore, you didn't even settle on the coast...
Then you settled a second city.
Not too bad. But you knew rome was going for iron, and you knew where it was. I would have declared with 1 axe, moved and fortfied it on the iron hill with Dr Scout to help him live longer while building more of them...?
After that you rampaged through Italy without taking Antium? Why?

Silly question I guess.
Rome is no threat anymore, but you need to remove or capture Antium to remove the cultural problem. Or don't you? a theatre + a library in Rome could do the trick, but it would be slow.
I guess 4 catapults and 5 axes would be faster.

Isn't Louis wonder happy yet? France has to go and has to go quikcly. With some pults and swordsmen you should be able to take paris and Orleans pretty quickly. This is going to be intense.

Isn't Louis wonder happy yet? France has to go and has to go quikcly. With some pults and swordsmen you should be able to take paris and Orleans pretty quickly. This is going to be intense.
by the time antium is taken, there should be some wonders in Paris :)

Take Antium first (not taking it last time kinda puzzled me), and hope that Louis builds you a couple wonders in the meantime...

I didn't take Antium because, as you can see in the second screenshot, the RNG gods were not kind to me, and I was down to 2 axes in my offensive force. Without having killed a single Archer. I wasn't going to take it without building some reinforcements.

Maybe making peace wasn't the best play, but I figured I'd build some catapults and another axe or two and redeclare as soon as the 10 turns are up. I have absolutely zero sources of happiness in my cities, and War Weariness was starting to kick in.

All Julie can build right now is more Archers, anyway. And once some Cats are online, those are no longer a serious threat.

Good work so far. I agree to take care of Antium and Then take down Paris. With Paris, Rome, and Berlin, you will have a nice core to a growing empire in place. Siege Units will be vital in these conquests. I would keep a siege unit on the production line at all times. Go for Fuedalism quickly to make some vassals out of the smaller civs.

Definetly an uphill battle. Little choice now. Those cultural borders will choke you out without acting.

Hey, you forgot the Maxim relating to early war:

Without Cats, against a high culture defended city, always have 2 times the number of attackers in your force than the number of defenders.

No wonder Antiuum survived :)

Anyway. Cats can solve any problem. Get a force of Swordsmen/Cats and take over the world!

Cheers.

Good job on the attack on Rome, Neal! The Antium assault was a tough break, though. I think with Rome and Iron, though, you can still win if you do it right, and have just a bit of luck.

What's unfortunate is that your assault failed, and all those archers are now going to be promoted. There's no help for that, though. I agree with Brave Jay's course of action - take care of Antium (With some of your shiny new Catapults and Swordsmen - however many you think is enough, then add in two Swords and two Catapults! Another failed assault, and you're doing) After you take Antium, make peace with Rome if Caeser is still around, and then attack France when you have a large enough force. (That's probably for the round after next)

Catapults are a great relief to finally have, but the even more devastating weapon, the trebuchet, is just an engineering tech away.

Catapults are a great relief to finally have, but the even more devastating weapon, the trebuchet, is just an engineering tech away.

Actually its just a metal casting, machinery, engineering tech away afaik.

Actually its just a metal casting, machinery, engineering tech away afaik.

It seems there's always someone spoiling my vague generalizations with cold hard facts :p

In this round, things have started to look up. We established our borders, continued to build up our military, and got our specialist economy up and running.

In the beginning, we made a deal with the devil:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/Civ4ScreenShot0000-1.jpg

Yeah, we're putting Catapults into the hands of someone who's just crazy enough to use'em. The way I see it, though, she was gonna research Construction sooner or later, anyway, and this way we a) get something for it, and b) maybe get on her good side a little bit.

Hinduism spread to Hamburg. Finally, a religion! We quickly adopted it and joined the Hindu bloc. Its founder, our new buddy Saladin (in most games, that's a contradiction in terms) offered to help us with the finer points of religious observance in exchange for advice on putting on a show:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/Civ4ScreenShot0001-1.jpg

In 125 B.C., I felt that our forces were sufficient to take Antium (Well, that and the Peace Treaty finally ran out):

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/Civ4ScreenShot0002-1.jpg

I'll admit, I thought I was reaching for Drama. It was kind of a knee-jerk reaction sort of play to get Theaters up to fight off the French borders, but Saladin gave us a nice selection of religious techs for it. Not only that, but we recieved another pleasant surprise as our war machine trundled toward Caesar's last foothold (get it? Because Italy looks like a.... never mind) on the continent. Our belligerent neighbor Catherine offered us this for it:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/Civ4ScreenShot0003-1.jpg

Monarchy! Hereditary Rule! Finally, our happiness problems are over (or at least abated significantly)! We took the opportunity to adopt not only that, but Organized Religion as well.

By the birth of Christ, we had largely pummeled Antium into submission:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/Civ4ScreenShot0005-1.jpg

I've gotta say, we got really lucky on those withdrawal rolls. Our throwaway suicide cats can now upgrade into useful veteran units.

Antium fell with only the loss of a catapult and a pair of Axemen:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/Civ4ScreenShot0006-1.jpg

As you can see, we're researching Literature. Unfortunately, a couple of our colleagues already have it, so we're a little behind in the Great Library race. Once the tech was researched, all of my workers immediately booked it to the lands around Berlin for the deforestation effort.

Also, Rome does have some presence in north Africa. Lacking boats (and much interest in competing with Hatsepshut for marginal land), we let Julie throw in the towel:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/Civ4ScreenShot0008.jpg

We scored another miracle in 275 B.C.:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/Civ4ScreenShot0011-1.jpg

The Great Library! We also got Hypatia, who looks a little more... mannish than she's usually depicted. She taught us the secrets of philosophy, despite the fact that Taoism was already on the map. Long-term, maybe I should have settled her, but Philosophy is one of the most expensive single-bulb techs out there, and it should be tradeable.

Indeed, Hatty stepped up to the plate with a nice little offer:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/Civ4ScreenShot0012-1.jpg

And Alexander (already relegated to "little buddy" status on the map) gave us another crucial tech.

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/Civ4ScreenShot0013-1.jpg

Finally, we met Elizabeth, who we easily got up to Cautious with a little gift:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/Civ4ScreenShot0014-1.jpg

I love Lizzy. She's so easily bought.

So, state of the world. Here's Germany with a focus on the Wehrmacht in Berlin:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/Civ4ScreenShot0015-1.jpg

And Italy:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/Civ4ScreenShot0016-1.jpg

I should be getting that tile back from Alexander pretty soon, so Italy will be whole once again.

(Why the Archers, you ask? Well, Louis is our next target, and he WILL couterattack. Nothing's better for fending off a counterattack than CG Archers)

Here's the Diplomatic Advisor:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/Civ4ScreenShot0017-1.jpg

Our list of friends and enemies is starting to take shape. It's pretty much Judaism vs. Hinduism. We do have a lot of Christianity in our lands, and the holy city is in southern France, protected only by a pair of Longbows. But adopting Christianity at this point would make us an international pariah.

Finally, the power graph:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/Civ4ScreenShot0018-1.jpg

Given the amount of hammers I've devoted to units, I'm surprised it's so low, though I will admit that a lot of those units died to take Rome.

So, anyway, I'm glad to say that I think we've weathered the storm. We have a little bit of breathing room, and we should have an army capable of taking France (and, by extension, Spain) pretty soon.

... Right?

The save: http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/118138/Frederick_AD-0400.CivWarlordsSave

Do Louis already made some nice wonders for you ( like the sistine chapel or the mids)? Some scouting would be apropriate ( sigh, you didn't have OB with him. Oh well, that means that he probably spent most of the time building wonders...)

P.S Why you don't use the upload system of CFC for those big files ( single file limit is 10 MB )?

You're so smart. Thanks, Rolo!

Just take care of one thing: At 500/600 kb per save, the 30 MB will disappear as fast as candies in the hands of children.... :p

Oh, no. It's 500-600 KB a save now. Once we gwet into, say, the industrial era, you're talking a meg, meg and a half.

You spend most of your time building units yet even Louis the culture guy and most other civs are higher on the power graph. The AI does build a lot of defensive units though so they have much less potential to inflict damage as attackers than you. Add the fact that you know how to concentrate your forces and use siege properly and they stand no chance. :lol:

We may be a few thousand years late, but our original game plan is back.

The beginning of the round came with a sobering reminder:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/Civ4ScreenShot0020-1.jpg

Wow. Caravels in 520. Looks like we're gonna be playing the good, old-fashioned continental power Germany. The Americas are gonna be full up by the time we get over there.

You can also see the announcement of a couple of wonders- The Church of the Nativity in woefully-underdefended Lyons (which is a good thing), and the construction of Chichen Itza (which I could frankly care less about).

We managed to trade happiness modifiers with our good buddy Qin:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/Civ4ScreenShot0021-1.jpg

Admittedly, with our SoD in our biggest city, we don't really need it, but hey, it might come in handy on a rainy day.

Genghis Khan came by for a visit with hat in hand:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/Civ4ScreenShot0022-1.jpg

Yeah, take it. There are Caravels wandering around the Mediterranean. I don't think Metal Casting is much of an advantage anymore. I'd rather not have to deal with a bunch of Keshiks running around burning my cottages, anyway.

Cyrus came by and offered another trade:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/Civ4ScreenShot0023-1.jpg

Calendar probably ended up doing more harm than good (I have no Plantation resources and would end up... acquiring Stonehenge), but the rest is well worth it.

Our stack of doom was taking shape in Berlin (swords and catapults). I wasn't looking forward to the massive casualties I'd suffer against longbows. Mansa Musa, though, offered me the chance to kick things into high gear:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/Civ4ScreenShot0024-1.jpg

Note my progress on Machinery up top. That sounds like it's worth 250 gold to me. Even as my enemy, Mansa ends up being more benefit than hindrance.

And Asoka completed the deal:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/Civ4ScreenShot0025-1.jpg

The couple of turns off of Machinery was trivial (though certainly nice), but Theology and the gold was crucial.

I immediately changed civics and started pumping out Macemen:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/Civ4ScreenShot0026-1.jpg

And upgrading some of my more experienced Swords.

Charlie Darwin was born in Berlin, babbling something about natural selection. I put him to work in the paper mills:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/Civ4ScreenShot0027-1.jpg

And bought Cyrus' map with it. Being such a central power, and friendly, he was our best choice to expand our horizons beyond our pitiful borders:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/Civ4ScreenShot0028-1.jpg

Here's what we learned. It turns out that Russia isn't quite as scary as I'd thought, after all:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/Civ4ScreenShot0029-1.jpg

Cyrus did a great job of cutting Catherine off. Of course, a small nation tends to have an inordinately huge army, given that they have nothing better to put their hammers towards.

In 680, we were finally ready to roll on Paris:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/Civ4ScreenShot0030-1.jpg

We made some final trades to build up a war chest (Paper to Cathy for Compass and 420 gold, Drama to Qin for 110) and let slip the dogs of war.

Louis sent a frankly pathetic offensive stack right into the teeth of our SoD:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/Civ4ScreenShot0035-1.jpg

We ended up losing a catapult, but that's acceptable.

As we finally parked outside gay Paree, we received a nice little punch in the gut:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/Civ4ScreenShot0037.jpg

What gives, Qin? We're in the same religious bloc and everything! Genghis jumped on the bandwagon, too.

Needless to say, my allies were not going to let this stand:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/Civ4ScreenShot0038-1.jpg

That should keep them busy for a while. Ladies and gentlemen, I think this qualifies as World War I! :king:

In 840 A.D., the Germans took Paris. Scratch out the year, and that sentence has a sadly familiar ring to it:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/Civ4ScreenShot0039-1.jpg

What was inside? Sadly, no Pyramids, but an interesting assortment of stuff nonetheless:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/Civ4ScreenShot0040-1.jpg

Chichen Itza? No wonder there were more casualties than expected! Ah, well. I guess in a crazy map like this, that might actually end up helping out once or twice. And there's Stonehenge. Why did we accept Calendar, again?

To the south, I'd sent a Catapult and two or three Macemen against Lyons (The Christian Holy City), mostly as a stalemate maneuver. Try to freeze the forces that would otherwise reinforce Paris, and all that. Sadly, it didn't work. Fortunately, this meant that Louis left its defenses to a Longbow, a Spearman, and a Horse Archer. Um, okay:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/Civ4ScreenShot0041-1.jpg

Not only did the Church survive, but we nabbed a granary to boot! I'll take it!

Around this time, we popped another GS, which we put towards Education. We might just be in the Liberalism race! And Catherine demanded 140 gold to stay off our backs. With all of our forces mired in France, it was worth keeping her happy.

In 920, Denmark fell:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/Civ4ScreenShot0045-1.jpg

And we accepted Louis' surrender:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/Civ4ScreenShot0046-1.jpg

(He's holed up in Norway, by the way)

So there we have it. France is ours. Spain is next, followed by either Russia or England.

Save and State of the World to follow.

Here's the icy north:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/Civ4ScreenShot0047-1.jpg

Yeah, we could have taken France's last city, but we only have one Galley, and Louis is Cautious, so it's not like he'll be a total thorn.

Germania proper:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/Civ4ScreenShot0048-1.jpg

We're now shaping up into a genuine world power. Thank Vishnu (We're Hindu, remember?) that attack on Rome worked.

Speaking of, here's Italia and Spain, who I think should be our next target:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/Civ4ScreenShot0049-1.jpg

May as well put them out of their (and our) misery.

The diplomatic situation:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/Civ4ScreenShot0050-1.jpg

Yeah, the war with the East is still going on, but aside from a Chinese Warrior and a Mongol Chariot and Scout, I haven't seen much of'em. Neither of them will talk to me, though. Should we postpone Spain and Russia and batten down the hatches in anticipation of an Asian Stack of Doom?

Finally, the Power Chart:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/Civ4ScreenShot0053-1.jpg

I still don't understand how we're as low as we are. We've pretty much been pumping out units since 4000 B.C.!

Science-wise, Guilds, Music, and Astronomy are out there, which we don't have. We have Philosophy and Paper on an awful lot of people, but I don't know if that would be a good idea, given the Liberalism race.

The save: http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/118138/Frederick_AD-0920.CivWarlordsSave

Very good job. I think it'd be ok to trade paper away, just not philosophy or education.

YEAY GO PERSIA :D

and btw good luck you you can do it :D

See if Cyrus will declare on Khan/Qin too, would make your job much easier. I wouldn't worry too much about an enemy attack because with India fighting China the Chinese will have better targets available. Izzy next deffinately, Madrid will be a tough nut to crack but its culture is going to cause problems in former France. IMO, go Spain, then England, then Russia, then Egypt in attacks, then you can turn on a few old allies for more land.

I still don't understand how we're as low as we are. We've pretty much been pumping out units since 4000 B.C.!

The population size has a big impact on the power score, and your cities are quite small compared to the AI cities.

Nice play so far....

Kietharr plan is good ( he took the words of my mouth ).

P.S Wierd, Isabella hasn't founded any religion.... :confused:

Edit: Why are you building a forge in Antium? Not for the prod bonus, most surely ( this is not BTS, you don't have Moai statues to give 1 :hammers: per water tile. By the way, this map's Europe will be a even bigger powerhouse in BTS because of that. Must try... )

All right, we're pretty much set on Spain being the next target. Should we build up a little bit more of a military first? We have plenty of Macemen, I think, but our catapults were largely decimated after being thrown at the walls of Paris. How many Cats/Trebs should we bring?

I think the next round will be a fairly in-depth blow-by-blow of the attack on Madrid (largely glossing over any buildup we decide is necessary). The battle over France involved much more back-and-forth than I was really able to include in what ended up being a fairly long round. What do you all think?

Oh, and one more thing: I think we're in the catbird seat regarding the Liberalism race. Should we end up winning it, what should we take as our freebie? Astronomy? Printing Press? Nationalism? Gunpowder? Guilds would be kind of a waste, but that's technically also an option.

Rolo: Good point, I suppose. Antium does have decent production (Plains/Hill/Mine, Plains/Hill/Grapes, and a pair of Plains/Sheep), but I guess it isn't really enough to justify the forge. I guess I'll just shift it to some trebs (or maybe some Hindu missionaries to bring Old France around to the One True Faith, since that's my monastery city).

I wouldn't neglect your forces to the east, just in case. With one city, spain might be loaded with troops. I wish you could use passive espionage to see what's inside there. I would have liked to have seen a great artist to have been used in paris for the culture bomb, and an immediate ending to resistance in a highly productive city. maybe u can pull that off on another city some time. good work so far, i'm enjoying this a lot.

You can use passive espionage in Spain. All you need is Open Borders.

The other option is to convert to Christianity and send in the missionaries.

I think your plan is good but am hesitant about Spain. I've seen her with some nasty stacks before. If you hit her blind I'd add some cats and try to get cyrus mixed in your Asian excursion.

what's to be gained from spain?

cabert: A few things. 1) Madrid is a decent production city, with the potential for a wonder or two. 2) Seeing as how we're Hindu and Isabella's Jewish, there's not a whole heck of a lot to be gained from leaving her on the map. 3) Spanish culture is squeezing the life out of our French territories.

In this round, we did what we set out to do and had a new challenge thrust upon us.

We started out by cutting Louis a deal and bringing him into the religious fold:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/Civ4ScreenShot0055.jpg

But that's just diplomatic maintenance, not what you're here to see.

It was time to wipe Spain off the map. I checked Isabella's technological progress first, and liked what I saw:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/Civ4ScreenShot0057-1.jpg

She doesn't even have Feudalism for Longbows. Nice.

Honestly, with a technological advantage like that, I didn't even think it was worth taking the time to replace my lost catapults. Those extra couple of collateral damagers wouldn't be worth the possibility of Spain upgrading her Archers.

I let the Paris stack finish healing up, and sent it headlong across the Pyrenees:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/Civ4ScreenShot0058-1.jpg

Unfortunately, that stack was all that was standing between the former French capitol and utter anarchy. I rushed a theater and made a civics change to give some replacement troops to get there from Hamburg:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/Civ4ScreenShot0059-1.jpg

We ended up losing one population from unrest-induced starvation (and two population points died setting up the stage), but that's the price of doing business.

The Spanish sent a frankly pathetic offensive force at us:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/Civ4ScreenShot0060-1.jpg

I can kind of see Isabella's thinking here. She was making a push for Rome, which was defended by a lone Archer. Sadly for her, this meant passing by Lyons, staffed with three Macemen:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/Civ4ScreenShot0061-1.jpg

We can also see the defenses of Madrid. Wow. Those Archers aren't even promoted.

I sent the Macemen out from Lyons to strike at Izzy's attack stack, leaving only a single Chariot:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/Civ4ScreenShot0062-1.jpg

I then moved Rome's Archer to the Marble hill and upgraded him to protect the Workers (silly me for leaving the workers exposed like that, though, honestly, they don't have a heck of a lot to do anymore).

Our offensive force, meanwhile, was hit by a couple of Catapults. We killed one, but the other bum managed to withdraw. I upgraded a Maceman to an anti-Archer special forces guy and sent him after Spain's source of Iron:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/Civ4ScreenShot0063-1.jpg

Somehow, he survived the turn and managed to eliminate Spain's only metals. She can rush Archers all day long, but I'd rather not see Axemen (Okay, so maybe she can't make anything that can really hurt me at this point. I'm just trying to foment good habits).

Our Macemen submitted themselves and their Catapult wounds to the tender ministrations of Dr. Scout while our own siege weapons focused on taking down Madrid's walls:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/Civ4ScreenShot0066-1.jpg

You can see that we're researching Guilds rather than Liberalism. Yeah. Hatty beat us to that particular prize, and, with our targets starting to get farther afield, I figured it was time for Knights to become part of our arsenal.

Around this time, Berlin was getting ready to spit out another Great Person. I was (Saints preserve us) hoping for a Great Artist. Madrid was bound to have a long rebellion time:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/Civ4ScreenShot0068.jpg

Sadly, it was not to be. I got a GS, which I settled in Berlin.

We built a Caravel in Rome and sent it out to find out what was going on in the Americas. England had a Caribbean city set up, and we sold the secrets of Monotheism and Drama to the Roosevelt and Monty for all the gold they had in the whole wide world (90 in all, I think). Talk about backwaters. Sadly, neither would part with their maps.

With Madrid's walls finally fallen (at least as far as I felt was necessary) after two turns of barrage, I made one final screenshot before the assault:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/Civ4ScreenShot0070-1.jpg

After round one of combat proper, we had lost both catapults, but nothing else. Spain's forces did not fare so well:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/Civ4ScreenShot0071.jpg

The next turn, we finally saw China's stack of Doom:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/Civ4ScreenShot0072.jpg

Not much, but with most of my forces in Spain, the elephant, especially, was inconvenient. I accepted the loss of the Workers (again, not like there's much for them to do right now) and made peace with Qin (he wanted 180 gold, but took Philosophy instead- if I can get him to go Pacifist, so much the better). Once we were friends again, trade quickly resumed (Wine and Stone for Silk and Bananas).

Spain, obviously, fell early in 1090:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/Civ4ScreenShot0074-1.jpg

With all my attention on Spain (and normalizing relations with the Chinese), I had forgotten about our shadow war with the Dread Khan. I sent a messenger asking for Mongolia's price for peace, fully expecting to get my messenger's head back in a basket.

I was sorely disappointed:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/Civ4ScreenShot0079-1.jpg

Poor old Genghis. Like Spain and the Inca, Mongolia really is screwed on this map, unless a human player REXes or conquers aggressively early on. They joined in China's war, hoping for some easy territory, and were sorely outclassed.

So, anyway... Spain is no more. Rome has been relegated to Africa, and the Nordic French are Pleased to be our Vassal. Our next move is to set up a navy for the arduous war on Elizabeth and... oh:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/Civ4ScreenShot0080-1.jpg

Okay, so it's not so bad. Catherine's assault consists of a single Trebuchet. This turn.

Here's the frozen north:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/Civ4ScreenShot0082-1.jpg

And the lush Mediterranean:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/Civ4ScreenShot0083.jpg

If it wasn't for Cathy's belligerence, I'd say it was time for the Third Roman War. That's an awful lot of Spanish land Caesar's claiming there.

The diplomacy screen:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/Civ4ScreenShot0084-1.jpg

Yeah, this is the only conflict on the map. I can probably drag Cyrus and maybe Saladin into this.

And the Power Poll:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/Civ4ScreenShot0085-1.jpg

Ouch. I hope I can drag Cyrus into this.

Hamburg is currently manned by an Axe (which can be upgraded) and a Mace. I'm gonna rush *something* as an emergency defender, but what? A Pike? A longbow?

Needless to say, it's time for my real army to reverse course posthaste. How many should I leave in Madrid to prevent a backstab by London or Caesar?

Here's the save: http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/118138/Frederick_AD-1110.CivWarlordsSave

On your Berlin screenshot, you could be gaining 1 more commerce without a loss :D

Drag everyone into the Russian war and try to take some Russian territory.

Gak. You're right. I'm used to second-guessing the BtS advisor by now, but I didn't think the Warlords one would betray me, too.

Time for a WWI , methinks... Who can you bribe against Cathy? Cyrus + QSH or Hatty would be nice.... Just don't let her get Cossacks.

Rome can't declare war and back stab you, their vassals. England will have to sail accross, which she just might do. I would garrison a small force in-between paris and madrid to defend which ever city might be attacked. If the culture push gets too strong on them, you'll have to garrison them inside to prevent a revolt. great artists would help a lot. the next best thing would be to focus the cities on culture for a while, running artist specialists. catherine is going to be very tough. You will definately need an ally. send a unit into her territory to try to find out what kind of stack she is sending so you can know what defenders to use. You might need to buckle down and defend against some waves before going on the offensive against her.

Rome is no vassal. That war ended before Feudalism. France is my vassal.

And, yeah, I've been trying for a GA for a while, though. That Great Library keeps pumping out scientists, though.

If anyone is bored and looking for something to do, I would appreciate it if you could download the save and just tell me how screwed I am. I realize that I might have overcommitted to the Western push and that the Great Bear may completely overrun me. But, then, maybe this is one of those crazy not-wars like I had with the Chinese. After all, the initial "stack" is just a lone Trebuchet.

I'm obviously not looking for complete spoilers, just an idea of where I stand on the "nothing to worry about"-"thank you for playing, please try again" continuum.

I could probably also use a smack to the face regarding some city-management mishaps, as well (like that whole "I'll ignore the river farm and instead work the non-commerce farm right next to it" fiasco).

Neal,

Just before you declared war on Issy. Did you demand the 100 gold from here? I always try to fleece my targets just before going to war with them.

On another note, this thread has inspired me to try the same scenario. I play on Noble and am having a great time. I took out Louis first, instead of going for Italy, then Italy once I had Cats. I conquered Alexander and am now taking on Hatty.

I always play on Epic, and I can't believe how much fun regular speed is. Everything gets done so much quicker.

Anyway, thanks for the inspiration.

Cheers.

Neal,

Just before you declared war on Issy. Did you demand the 100 gold from here? I always try to fleece my targets just before going to war with them.


When your opponent gives in to your demand, you automatically sign a ten turn peace treaty with them. So demanding and then going to war doesn't work, as far as I know.

EDIT: Never mind, forgot that this isn't a BTS game. God, I am tired. :D

Manu: I could have, but I didn't. To me, that feels more like an exploit than a real strategy. Besides, this is likely my last non-BtS game, and I'd rather not abuse tactics that can't be used there.

I'm glad you like it, though. It's a favorite map of mine, and a big part of why I'm doing this is to give it a little bit of exposure. The closest to a standard Civ IV start is Russia; everyone else has unique challenges and benefits to their starting position (especially the Inca- I love their isolation).

I would leave a defender or 2 in the western cities but bring everything else to the east to defend from Cathy .. I find that she rarely declares war unless she has an army ready to strike which she often does. Even losing a single city can set you back very far since you took over all of this land and your empire is still small compared to Persia or China. On top of that, other civs with large armies may dogpile on you (like Hatty or Asoka).

I was going to play the save, but i haven't been able to use the earth map on warlords ever since i downloaded and installed the 2.13 patch.

Do you think the German AI suffers because he starts 1 square from the ocean too?

Gotta say I love this game, and this map. I loved the dramatic ending to the last round. Cathy, you wench! :lol:

Good luck fighting the bear :)

guess it's time to whip an emergency army to make sure you don't lose any ground in the east before cathy's REAL stack arrives.

Well, a game that goes according to plan is boring, anyway. I'll play and post the next round sometime tonight or tomorrow.

Well, a game that goes according to plan is boring, anyway. I'll play and post the next round sometime tonight or tomorrow.

Oh no! He learned the "T" word too!!!!!! :lol:

It's an awesome map. I tried it on BTS with England.

guess it's time to whip an emergency army to make sure you don't lose any ground in the east before cathy's REAL stack arrives.

Agreed fully. Cathy normally has a lot of HA/Knights. I believe that you'll meet them very soon....

And Neal, I'm glad that you finally controled the power of the T word, like Aelf and the S man :lol:

Cathy normally has a lot of HA/Knights.

I'm hearing that maybe I should get some Pikemen online...

^^Normally leaders with non-Chariot non-HA horse UU ( Russia, Spain )tend to amass Chariots and HA waiting for upgrading ( nice strat if you have the upgrade and prod bonus that Warlords AI have... )

I'm hearing that maybe I should get some Pikemen online...


Yes, that would be good if you can get them in time. axes/spears/pikes should be enough to hold her off. maybe a few shock promoted chariots as well. I can't help but believe that the ai timed this perfectly as you just ended your war with spain,mongolia. yeah, she needs to pay......:mad:

All right, a short round to describe what might be a short war.

First thing's first. I sent my Spanish army eastward post-haste, leaving two relatively inexperienced Macemen behind to watch the store, as it were.

I lied about a Maceman and an Axeman defending Hamburg. That was an Axeman and an Archer. No wonder Cathy took me for a soft target. But even an Axeman had a decent shot at taking out an exposed Trebuchet:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/Civ4ScreenShot0086-1.jpg

It was a calculated gamble, attacking before the promotion. But it worked. I used the "blue spark" to heal up some battle damage in addition to grabbing Combat I. You can also see my whipped Pikeman in Hamburg. The lash was coming down throughout the empire, believe me.

The next turn, Catherine showed her hand:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/Civ4ScreenShot0087-1.jpg

Bad, but not too bad. That Axeman was standing in prime invading stack territory, but there was no way he could hold everyone back. Instead of making him be a hero, he retreated into Hamburg and traded his Axe for a Mace. I fortified the city up with Pikes and Longbows and prepared for the inevitable siege.

It was time to get some friends on our side. Cyrus, Qin, and Asoka refused to pick a side. In fact, Russia was one of their bestest friends, despite the religious differences. Damn Catherine and her feminine wiles!

Genghis Khan, of course, is more interested in booty than, um, booty:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/Civ4ScreenShot0088-1.jpg

He asked a lot for his help and probably won't contribute much, but, then, it's all old stuff that everyone else has, anyway, and, besides, I'm sure he values our "Shared Military Struggle."

Alexander, apparently fresh from having his pupils dilated, was also willing to throw in:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/Civ4ScreenShot0089-1.jpg

Can't say that I blame him. Greece normally gets a second city built before being squeezed, but this game didn't even afford him that luxury. I think it's because Hamburg (the whole point of this war) was placed in or around Cathy's preferred second city site.

Our Western Army, full of tired veterans, finally arrived to open up a second front in the Balkans:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/Civ4ScreenShot0093.jpg

The city fell in 1180, and held quite a bit in terms of prizes:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/Civ4ScreenShot0094-1.jpg

Unfortunately, it's also completely engulfed in Greek culture. On the bright side, though, Cathy did lose a Warlord Knight in the fighting.

The following decade, I felt that the siege of Hamburg could finally be broken:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/Civ4ScreenShot0096-1.jpg

It took some doing (Hamburg ended up with two Longbowmen and a near-dead Pikeman after all was said and done-we also lost a pair of Knights that swooped in from Berlin and Rome), but the people could walk in the streets without fear once again. We even got a Great General out of it, who promptly settled in Rome, which is quickly turning into our military production plant.

In 1220, Catherine was willing to accept emissaries again, and offered to throw in the towel:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/Civ4ScreenShot0098-1.jpg

Now here's the crossroads. On the one hand, our armies are tired, our siege battery has been reduced to a single trebuchet, and our infrastructure is in shambles, especially after enslaving and killing half our population.

On the other, we have Catherine on the defensive:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/Civ4ScreenShot0099-1.jpg

Though those forces are pretty much incapable of taking St. Petersburg, a couple more turns of whipping might be able to get the reinforcements we'd need in place. Then again, Cathy will be reinforcing as well.

Here's the sorry state of Novgorod:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/Civ4ScreenShot0100-1.jpg

I'm tempted to gift this to Alex, since getting it online would take either a lot of hard work and whipping or a Great Artist (who don't seem to be forthcoming- I never thought I'd regret building the Great Library).

Here's the Diplomatic situation for Catherine:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/Civ4ScreenShot0101.jpg

Why does everyone love her more than they love me?

And the power graph. As you can see, we still apparently suck, but we've put quite a dent in the Great Bear:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/Civ4ScreenShot0102-1.jpg

So... Gift Novgorod to Alex or keep it? Make nice and rebuild or press the attack? I'm worried that trying to take St. Petersburg could result into one of those 300-year sieges that cripples us for the endgame.

Here's the save:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/118138/Frederick_AD-1220.CivWarlordsSave

Isn't that Alex all lonely at the bottom of the power graph? And with the great lighthouse but only one city to use it?

Why not declare on Alex and wipe him out during a 10 turn peace treaty with catherine, thereby removing cultural pressure on your new city and allowing time to rebuild your siege weapons? After all, this is a conquest, not a greek love-fest. We are not to be trusted, and anyone who trusts us are fools! The Greeks are of little or no use to our vast empire. They've served their purpose by keeping athens warm and filled with population and buildings until we decide to take what is rightfully ours! I love conquests. It just brings out the dark side.

Yeah, I was afraid you guys would say that. I hate being a jerk.

Makes sense, though. Especially with Alex's (largely obsolete) army being decimated by the Russians.

So, wipe out Greece, then spend a couple of turns rebuilding? Our cities need to repopulate and get a couple of civilian builds going....

Yeah, I was afraid you guys would say that. I hate being a jerk.

Makes sense, though. Especially with Alex's (largely obsolete) army being decimated by the Russians.

So, wipe out Greece, then spend a couple of turns rebuilding? Our cities need to repopulate and get a couple of civilian builds going....

Good news is, that as your empire gets larger, you can spare a few cities at a time on building duties.

Make peace with the Ruskies ( cease fire is better ), resolve the Greek cultural Problem :lol: and resume war with the Ruskies.

I'd take the peace treaty. The money is good for you, and you will need the 10 turns to build an army you don't have now.

Peace with the Cat, then after a few turns declare and wipe the floor with mr. Alex. Remember that the 10-turn forced peace will prevent her from backstabbing you, too. Then sign the "I'm a lumberjack" song and chop that forest near Hamburg. Tactical value, and I'm sure you'll find a use for the hammers as well.

ROME as your designated unit-city should probably build nothing but units for a very very long time unless you really really really need something else there. Build Trebs there, and give them all CR I and CR II promotions. No barrage on trebs. Doing this you will lose zero or just one even against heavily fortified cities. Alex will probably hole up a lot of units in his city, but every treb except the first will face favourable odds. You might in fact end up stronger after his death because of Trebs with CRIII probotions.

A shrewd tactic against multi-city empires which can be used to destroy their fighting force is the "failed-city-attack" gambit. This is very effective with CR-promoted trebs. You could try this against St.Pete. You strip the defenses and then assault the city as usual, however leave the last lone defender alive. Next round your foe, thanking his lucky stars that your attack "failed", rushes defenses into the city. Mabye a raw longbow, but also critical units like catapults, knights (who do extremely poor as city defenders against trebs). This will also get you just a little more CR promotions for your trebs. I find that one CR3 treb will have over 96% chance to win against a fresh, unfortified unpromoted longbow, so you will mostly conserve your force. You have a medic in the stack, and can also heal by giving promotions. And pretty soon you can think about which promotion is best after the CR3 one. You should also let a few macemen go the CR route, in preparation for becoming CR3 grenadiers.

For your war against Russia, remember what happened to Napoleon and Hitler. You will take ST.Pete, but it will be engulfed in Moscowian culture, so you must have the force to push on. Remember to bring one or two CG longbows who can remian there while your offensives push on.

Remember also the words of Churchill, "Nothing succeds like excess". We'll look forward to see the Russian Bear crippled. Just don't sell it's hide before the bear has been shot.

I think Geece would be happy to join your empire;)

I really wouldn't continue against Cathy. Never fight a land war in Asia, remember? (especially with a small army) ;)

I say go for Greece then be a bit peaceful for a few turns. The only bad thing is, Cathy's friends will probably damn you with another "You declared war on our friend!" demerit. But then you're going to wipe them out anyway... :ar15:

The only thing that worries me about going after Greece is that I fear we're running out of time on a "pure" domination victory. We may have to backdoor it with the U.N. at this point.

Attacking Greece would only further divide our already-fractured Hindu bloc. In fact, concerning that, what do you all think about grabbing Liberalism and going Free Religion, anyway? Seems like even with the religious landscape, the English are better friends than the Chinese right now...

The only thing that worries me about going after Greece is that I fear we're running out of time on a "pure" domination victory. We may have to backdoor it with the U.N. at this point.

Attacking Greece would only further divide our already-fractured Hindu bloc. In fact, concerning that, what do you all think about grabbing Liberalism and going Free Religion, anyway? Seems like even with the religious landscape, the English are better friends than the Chinese right now...

:confused: what's the point of sticking with hinduism?
take what greece has to offer and get nearer to domination.

You can go "free religion" without grabbing liberalism too - just convert back to no state religion. You just lose out on 10% bonus (which is same as one measly monestary) and some happiness. That 10% bonus doesn't even matter much in your non-science cities, and your science-cities probably have enough +% to research anyway...

Since you are Germans and said you were gonna go for the Domination win, you should instead grab steel for cannon after chemistry. Grenadiers + cannon combo should last a long while, and give you time to do some non-military research. Keep heroic epic city pouring out the troops, and soon you can make yourself an ironworks - wonder building city too.

EDIT - By the way, if you can grab a backdoor Diplomatic win, that is of course okay and in the spirit of the game. But you don't need to research towards or build the U.N, since you will be large enough to be a contender anyway.

You can go "free religion" without grabbing liberalism too - just convert back to no state religion. You just lose out on 10% bonus (which is same as one measly monestary) and some happiness. That 10% bonus doesn't even matter much in your non-science cities, and your science-cities probably have enough +% to research anyway...

Since you are Germans and said you were gonna go for the Domination win, you should instead grab steel for cannon after chemistry. Grenadiers + cannon combo should last a long while, and give you time to do some non-military research. Keep heroic epic city pouring out the troops, and soon you can make yourself an ironworks - wonder building city too.
you also lose out on happiness, which is quite bitter

I'm halfway through the round. Alexander has been... taken care of. Who should be next? A naval build-up followed by an assault on London? A strike on Caesar's African stronghold? Or a resumption of our war with the Great Bear?

I would go on trimming Kathy, because:

1. Once she gets kossack, she REALLY can cause a problem
2. You are about 99% garantied to get backstabbed, as soon as your army is over in Britain

Better deal with England once Kathy is reduced a little

Russia's land is quite nice.... but play safe and finish the Brits and ceasar first

All three at once. :hammer:
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O.K., I'm just kidding. I would at least cripple Kathy before she gets cossacks.

I would do my best to instigate a war with the persian/chinese/russians against each other before taking britain. If this is not doable, then it seems more prudent to severly weaken cathy before moving forward with someone else.

While we're on the Cossack clock with Cathy, though, we're also on the Elizabeth Redcoat clock. Of course, Liz is probably a little less likely to attack us out of the blue...

While we're on the Cossack clock with Cathy, though, we're also on the Elizabeth Redcoat clock. Of course, Liz is probably a little less likely to attack us out of the blue...

I would do my best to instigate a war with the persian/chinese/russians against each other before taking britain. If this is not doable, then it seems more prudent to severly weaken cathy before moving forward with someone else.

I think that could be the answer. If you can get someone else to cripple (or delay) Cathy, you would then be free to attack Eli at the same time.

I think you can forget about Elizabeth, I doubt she'll just randomly declare war. It's the Russian you wanna watch.

If you can get anyone else at all into the war against Cathy, then do it. Heal your stacks quickly and just go for it.

You've taken all of Europe at this point, right? Ignore your navy, build up a horde of Knights or Cav and clear out continental Eurasia: Russia, Mongolia, China, India, Persia, and then into Arabia, Egypt, and then Mali. Don't go for Japan or England. Right there you might have enough for Domination, but if not you can take the island nations later with your insane production.

Cathy must die next, for a number of reasons:

1. Liz is a good tech trade partner, and can be "handled" at a later date.
2. Cathy *will* backstab you at some point (again).
3. She's in the way of your conquest of Asia and Africa.
4. Lots of cities makes Nationalism dramatically more powerful - she has cities.
5. Liz's cities are primarily not connected to the main landmass, making reason #5 logistically challenging.
6. She started it......

Destroy Cathy ASAP. I would go for a strike into Moscow, and only then go for her other cities. This would help a lot because then its much harder for her to organize a counterattack or research MT + Rifling.

I am once again convinced that the sky is falling.

It all started so well, too. We made peace with the Great Bear, and started to stack up our forces against Greece. At first, my biggest concern was the fact that Alexander had a second city tucked away east of Russia:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/Civ4ScreenShot0103-1.jpg

It was going to be tough sneaking some units through hostile Russian territory to get that far (and I didn't plan on signing an Open Borders treaty with Catherine).

In this next screenshot you'll see the anti-Hellenic strike force:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/Civ4ScreenShot0105-1.jpg

Okay, okay. That's a good chunk of our standing army. But if the plan is to use it against Cathy real soon now, we may as well take it all to ensure a rapid battle.

I hate doing this sort of thing, but the turning point had come. Alexander was now worth more to us dead than alive:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/Civ4ScreenShot0106.jpg

Shortly after our declaration, Catherine did us a huge favor:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/Civ4ScreenShot0107.jpg

At least now we don't have to worry about homeland penalties once Athens falls.

Speaking of Athens, there wasn't a whole heck of a lot defending her:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/Civ4ScreenShot0109-1.jpg

Here we also see the darker side of Alexander continuing to be at war with Russia. Novgorod's resources are all in Greek territory, so Cathy's pillaging the heck out of it. Ah, well. That'll give our workers something to do.

Athens obviously fell quickly, signifying the end of the Greek empire:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/Civ4ScreenShot0110.jpg

We then spent a few turns consolidating our forces, healing up, building trebuchets, and upgrading our CR3 Macemen to Grenadiers.

We also finally got our lucky roll on Great People:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/Civ4ScreenShot0112-1.jpg

I can't believe that I'm rolling my eyes at Scientists and pining for Artists.

In 1400, it was time to reopen hostilities:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/Civ4ScreenShot0113-1.jpg

Target number one was the fortress-city of St. Petersburg, that we had tried and failed to besiege in the First Russian War:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/Civ4ScreenShot0115-1.jpg

Every single one of those Grenadiers is CR2, at least, with most of them being CR3. They tore through Russia's best and bravest like butter.

Around this time, China and India declared war on one another. Good to see two of my greater rivals going at it. Too bad I can't stir up any bad blood between the big dogs, Persia and Egypt. Also, we learned the secrets of Steel, which meant that we could phase fully into a gunpowder army (well, except for those Knights). Cannons would be most useful, though somewhat time-consuming to get to the front.

In 1430, St. Petersburg fell. Ludwig van Beethoven put on his best spangly suit, donned his shades, and put on an incredible show, exhibiting the boons of German culture to the downcast, conquered people:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/Civ4ScreenShot0118-1.jpg

Here we jump-started our somewhat flagging research by trading Elizabeth Chemistry, Steel and our map for Nationalism, Printing Press, Constitution and 570 gold. We could finally switch to Representation and get the most out of our specialists. Oh, to those who would say that we should have taken the Pyramids: Sadly, they're stuck smack dab in the middle of Cyrus' empire. They're going to have to wait.

Apparently, St. Petersburg was set up to be hardpoint in Catherine's defenses. Moscow was barely defended:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/Civ4ScreenShot0122-1.jpg

And fell in 1500. Nothing incredible inside- a few infrastructure buildings and a Military Academy, which was nice.

Around here we finished researching Liberalism (Are the A.I.s always this reticent to trade that stupid tech?) and made a civics change that should last us quite a while:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/Civ4ScreenShot0124-1.jpg

Shortly after the fall of Moscow, our troops came upon Russia's second capitol:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/Civ4ScreenShot0125-1.jpg

And razed it. It was at the junction of Russian, Persian, and Egyptian culture. Its borders would not hold.

Ten years later, Catherine lost her third capitol:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/Civ4ScreenShot0127.jpg

Russia was on the ropes. Catherine's harrying assaults had stopped as everything was pulled behind her walls. City garrisons were getting more and more raw and ill-equipped. Only a few cities remained (except for one annoying island-fortress off the coast of Africa. Soon, Catherine would be... NOT AGAIN!

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/Civ4ScreenShot0128-1.jpg

It seems that in that big tech trade, I gave Elizabeth a hammer, and I'm starting to look like a nail.

The British are coming. Thankfully, the invasion seems pretty minor so far, but our entire army is to the east. We are in no way prepared for a fresh, technologically advanced attack on our flank. We're especially unprepared for Redcoats.

The attack seems to be an overland strike from Norway:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/Civ4ScreenShot0130-1.jpg

You can see the entire invasion force (one Redcoat) in that forest. Sadly, the worker that was chopping that forest down is no more.

Here's the productive parts of my empire:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/Civ4ScreenShot0131-1.jpg

You'll see that it's all civilian builds. I was planning on taking a couple of turns of peace once Cathy was eliminated (or at least exiled to her island) to get our economy in order, but it doesn't look like that's happening.

Oh, and in case you were wondering whether the English Channel would slow down Liz's invasion fleet? No such luck:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/Civ4ScreenShot0132-1.jpg

She's got naval units out the proverbial wazoo.

Silver linings? We've got two that I can see. First, we're running Nationalism and Slavery, so we can rush a respectable force of defenders fairly quickly (though not quickly enough, if the English decide to really commit to this war). We don't have Rifling, though, so we're looking at Grenadiers (Whipped) and Musketmen (Drafted).

Secondly, Catherine is willing to throw in the towel:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x68/NealTS/Civ4ScreenShot0129-1.jpg

Normally, I'd be loathe to accept this offer, but the English threat must, I think, be reckoned with. Heck, in this situation, I'm almost tempted to accept the Capitulation and gift back Yaroslavl' or even Moscow to get her up to War Thrall status (Louis is honestly just a too-much-trouble-to-conquer vassal, but Catherine could still be useful). And if she gets too big for her briches and breaks Vassalage later on, well, so much the better, no?

So there we have it. Once again, Germans must die to defend their homelands. And Paris. Possibly. What do you all think? There are enough settled GP in Paris and especially Berlin that if they fall, the game is effectively over. Does Liz indulge in "fake wars" or should we be ready for 20-something Redcoats and Cannons to land on our shores?

Here's the save. As usual, I would be most grateful to anyone willing to download and check it out:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/118138/Frederick_AD-1540.CivWarlordsSave

I think Yekaterinburg is probably distant enough from Yaroslavl' and Moscow that the capitulation is not ideal, but OK. Double monasteries will help.

I think you just can't tell whether Liz is going to do a serious invasion or not. I'd guess probably not, since the AI likes sneak attacks, right? Still, I'd go generous with the defenders.

Definitely research Rifling until Asoka is willing to trade it for Steel. Whipped Grenadiers are good against Redcoats, but you need to pimp your draft. It's probably a good time to start pumping the culture slider, too. Just get Rifling, then you're OK for a while and can whip/draft way down if needed.

Any reason not to OB with Mansa? You could use a couple better trade routes.

I'd swap the fish to Athens. Even if it just supports two Artists, that'd be dandy.

Bright side, Liz has good land.

I don't know if you can get Domination now (I really think on any Huge size map you gotta play Marathon or at the very least Epic for that) but if not that I think you're in a good position for an exciting space race against the middle east.

:lol: I can only imagine the look on your face when the horns of war blared and Elizabeth popped up on your screen...

You could vassalize Catherine and bring her into the war with Elizabeth, personally I try to avoid vassals at all costs, and I doubt she'd be much help against the Virgin Queen, but you could just cease fire with her and hope she doesn't DoW on you again. That's probably pushing it, though.

You can bribe Monty into war with Elizabeth by giving him Guilds, maybe he can take Oxford if he's lucky.

Try to trade for Astronomy - can you force Catherine into giving it to you? so you can build some Frigates/upgrade some caravels to counter the English sea menace. At best, she'll just pillage your clams, at worst she'll send a stack of those redcoats for Paris and/or Orleans. I've seen her declare war on France on the Earth map before with many, many Transports, Infantries, Marines, Tanks, and Artillery in London but never sending them over. Do not underestimate the unintelligent behavior of the AI.

Research Rifling/Military Tradition ASAP, because if Elizabeth gets Cavalry soon, that would make life pretty miserable for you. I don't think invading the northern cities with your CR Grenadiers and some Cannons is that implausible of a scenario - how about sending an expeditionary force to see how many defenders Coventry's got? If there's a SoD, sit back and wait for the blow. If there's minimal defense, go for it!

Rushing/whipping some defenders in Paris and Orleans is a definite, but don't be surprised if the amphibious invasion never comes. Even so, prepare for the worst :please:

This is what cavalry's for. Just send the Knights back to France and you'll be all right.

Oops. Redcoats. Crap.

I'm fol