What are the city names? Do they follow one or two tribes or is each city a tribal name?

Also how does this impact the "barbarian cities" having names of some Native tribes? If they are in they still use them, or never again?

I'm playing against the Native Americans in my first game currently, some of their more memorable city names were Snaketown & Poverty Point.

I have captured their capital but I can't remember its name. It wasn't something I've heard before.

But then I'm neither American nor Native American so perhaps it's a well known name on the other side of the pond. I'll take a look in the xml file when I get home tonight and post the full list up here.

Erg... :sad: I'm not liking the sound of that. Are they trying to do a wild west theme for them? I really dislike the name Poverty Town, while they Natives were certainly horribly mistreated... that's just ridiculous to have that as a city name in a game like this. Poor taste, very poor taste... for many reasons.

I'm becoming more convinced I may want to mod them to the Sioux. I'm likely to nab the city list from Civ II just for that.

I'm definitely going to mod these guys (name, city names, spell leader name correctly etc) and do them some of the justice they deserve.

I'm playing against the Native Americans in my first game currently, some of their more memorable city names were Snaketown & Poverty Point.


:rotfl:

Just when I thought the creators of this game had no sense of humor...:goodjob:

I think you guys are missing the point that those are the names of actual places. They didn't make them up to either be funny or as a dig against Native Americans.

Rename them Sioux if it floats your boat. Personally I think that Firaxis made them the "NA" civilization because if they were just Sioux, or Cherokee there would be all the polls here saying:

Do you prefer the Sioux to:

Seminoles
Chehalis
Washoe
Aleut
Chappaquiddick
Wenatchee

...ad infinitum.

No one said that they weren't real, but they also aren't the names of the original settlements. We have to presume that we are playing a civ that isnt subjugated to foreign powers (or what's the point?), so we also want to use the genuine nominatives.

Sorry but I also dont think your argument holds.... if it were true then why not just call all the European civs "The Native Europeans" etc etc?

Anyway, people will always argue over these things - surely that is the entire point of posting on a forum, to forward ideas and to debate them! ;)

I think you guys are missing the point that those are the names of actual places. They didn't make them up to either be funny or as a dig against Native Americans.

Perhaps, but then couldn't they make the names of tribes cities? Giving it a "Western flair" or a name like that just stands out like and eyesore.

As for the Choosing NA over Sioux I disagree to a degree as the Sioux were in Civ II and Iroquois in Civ III and both were pretty readily welcomed. I don't think we would see more debate on it then "Khmer or Vietnam or Polynesia, etc" threads.

If nothing else, even if Poverty Point is a place it just seems like a bad name for both the NA to have and just brings bad nothing but bad thoughts. Again it seems like poor taste and insulting both to Natives and non-Natives who might feel terrible for what happened in both people's histories.

Still, I think the NA as a civ name, while all encompassing, feels like a cop out. Sure not picking a specific tribe might be avoided as I can think of at least three to five tribes I'd say deserve a nod, but the generalizing of large groups of people like that into one civ? Ugh... it'd be like have "Western European" or "Middle Eastern" as a civ in the game. Know what I mean? I'm not even to keen on the UB... it fits one aspect, but it stills feels uncomfortable to me.

----

Gameplay wise: How is the UB? The UU? What is Sitting Bull like game wise... does he tend to go for a certain religion? Good diplomacy music?

Isn't Poverty Point a fairly significant archaeological site of the mound builder culture?

I played my first BtS game as Indians - great civ! I remember only Poverty something as a name of city.

They're really great, in the early game, when opponent doesn't know what you are researching, you may choose to research Misticism and Hunting -> Archery, build Barracks and Totem - then you get archers with four promotions :) But there is better tech tree path - Mining and Bronze Working, introduce Slavery and send 2-3 Dog Soldiers to choke opponent (in games 1 vs 1).

Sitting Bull is also philosophical, so you can keep up with techs research, if you get the Pyramids and Great Library, then you're out of reach. I tried this yesterday, but I managed to build only Pyramids and game was won by me, because my colleague didn't resisted massive attack of horse archers with support of Elephants and Catapults...

Isn't Poverty Point a fairly significant archaeological site of the mound builder culture?

That reminds me, Mound City was another one of their cities.

I kinda like the names they have. It's much better than some indecipherable names like the Zulu or Aztec cities have IMO.

Enh, one city isn't so bad.... even two can be acceptable. Kinda like how my dad didn't like the city "Killdeer" in Civ II. .. ironically a Sioux city (ironic due to my earlier posts).

Maybe I'm a pessimist. I've been debating between Ethiopia and Native Americans as my first civ in BTS... maybe I'll try the Native Americans to see them in action, so maybe it'll grow on me.

I'm very much glad they're at least represented in some way (finally), and that they seem to be a civ with plenty of opportunities!:) I'd rather have them in like this then not at all.

For a glass half full interpretation, maybe the city names will give a more "unique" feel at least... letting them feel different while something we can can understand.

Side note: pulling an all nighter on a philosophy test can make one a little pessimistic and or annoyed easier, so hopefully my above posts didn't come across as to whiny! ;)

You play civ and are a Philosophy major, eh? Wanna hang out? :lol:

Can someone please post the full city list?

Can someone please post the full city list?
<Cities>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_CAHOKIA</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_POVERTY_POINT</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_MOUND_CITY</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_CHACO_CANYON</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_MESA_VERDE</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_SNAKETOWN</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_SPIRO</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_MOUNDVILLE</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_NACOGDOCHES</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_NANIH_WAIYA</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_ANHAICA</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_ETOWAH</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_OCMULGEE</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_KITUHWA</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_FORT_ANCIENT</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_ONONDAGA</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_BAWATING</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_ACOMA</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_NAMBE</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_HOVENSWEEP</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_CASA_GRANDE</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_CRIEL</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_JOARA</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_LAKE_JACKSON</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_CHOTA</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_ONEIDA</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_LOGSTOWN</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_FIVE_FINGER_RIDGE</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_FRIJOLES_CANYON</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_PUYE_CLIFF</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_KIET_SIEL</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_MONTEZUMA_CASTLE</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_WICKLIFFE</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_AZTALAN</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_ANGEL_MOUNDS</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_TSIREGE</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_TAOS</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_ZUNI</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_TISHOMINGO</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_SHAUGAWAUMIKONG</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_ALLUMETTE</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_WENDAKE</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_NORRIDGEWOCK</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_MUTSUN</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_OZETTE</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_ESTIPAH_SKIKIKINI_KOTS</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_HUECO_TANKS</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_UKPIAGVIK</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_KETCHIKAN</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_KUUJJUAQ</City>
</Cities>

Thanks, Lord Shadow.

Yeah, it looks like a lot of these city names are archaeological sites in North America, not random "Wild West" names. However, I think I will pass when it comes to "Frijoles Canyon" (frijoles=beans). ;)

Yeah the problem isn't their authenticity.... they are all real, not made-up. It's the fact that they are not the original names but the names of the archaeological site or name given by archaeologists to a people or place. It just feels odd to see "Mound City" or "Poverty Point" next to the genuine place names.

It's been years since I studied about the native American Indians and all my books are half a world away, so I don't have lists to hand, but there are plenty of names to fill out the list!

I'm opposite to Chopstyx - I'd rather have unpronouncable, inutterable genuine names than ones given by a later culture. If this rule was extended across all the civs, it could become very ugly.

Well, it is a collection of archeological sites and tribal places from across North America. We don't know the names of the Greater Mississipi valley moundbuilders cities.

You could always go with the names of N.A. rivers and lakes instead, if you want a compromise between pronouncable and authentic.

That's an interesting list.
They have Inuit names such as Kuujjuaq and they also have Montezuma mountain which is, if I remember correctly, somewhere in Arizona.
Cahokia though, I've never heard of.

Yeah, it looks like a lot of these city names are archaeological sites in North America, not random "Wild West" names. However, I think I will pass when it comes to "Frijoles Canyon" (frijoles=beans). ;)

If it gets captured by an opponent and you reclaim it, does it become Frijoles Refritos Canyon? :nope:

Who cares what names they are.

The name "Poverty Point" came from the plantation which once surrounded the Louisiana site.

You should be worried about level 3 garrisoned archers and Dog Soldiers. The Dogs are attack 4, but 100% to melee. Not to mention they only require bronze working, but no bronze to make. These guys are nuts. :D

That's an interesting list.
They have Inuit names such as Kuujjuaq and they also have Montezuma mountain which is, if I remember correctly, somewhere in Arizona.
Cahokia though, I've never heard of.

Cahokia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cahokia). It was most likely the largest city in North America until Philadelphia in the late 18th century.

I've only run into the Native Americans once. Sitting Bull (you hardly ever see civ names, just the leader, which is why I think it doesn't really matter what they called them) seemed eager to explore: proving the world is round with just a workboat. Other than that he hasn't really done anything in that particular game, besides getting his ass kicked by the Incas and the Greek.

I liked him though. He wasn't in my religious block, so I didn't do much with him, but he seemed like he wanted to trade and stuff. Not like Toku.

I liked the city names better than those Khmer ones. Those are even weirder than the Khmer leader's name and face combined!

You play civ and are a Philosophy major, eh? Wanna hang out? :lol:

No, I'm a history and political science double major! :lol: I'm just taking Ethics for fun/to raise my GPA

Hmm, we'll have to see. Best Buy in Dubuque said they have it, running over now! I also should get a pay check today! w00t

Ethics for fun???

Is that ethical? :mischief:

If nothing else, even if Poverty Point is a place it just seems like a bad name for both the NA to have and just brings bad nothing but bad thoughts. Again it seems like poor taste and insulting both to Natives and non-Natives who might feel terrible for what happened in both people's histories.


Poverty Point isn't just the name of the archeological site, it's the name applied the entire civilzation of the lower Mississippi river of that time. I studied it a bit a long long time ago. There's a lot we don't know about the Poverty Point peoples, but they represent a big jump towards what most people would call 'civilization'. This link (http://www.crt.state.la.us/archaeology/POVERPOI/Popo.htm) has some info on them.

"Few people realize that the Poverty Point site, at 1500 B.C., was the commercial and governmental center of its day. In its time, the Poverty Point site had the largest, most elaborate earthworks anywhere in the western hemisphere."

I'm not sure why the name offends you, it sounds dignified to me, but then I've actually studied it some.

There is no surviving "native" name for these peoples. Poverty Point represents the oldest cultural and governmental center in what is now the United States. Why is that not worthy of being the capital of the Native American civilzation?

I just finished by first game as Sitting Bull.

I conquered the Byzantines, and founded a few religions.

I found it amusing that when I created a colony, it turned out to be FDR's America. :lol:

I probably won't edit them now, I'm liking them.

I'm quite content with the NA city names. Many are from the many mound/pueblo builders of North America, as well as a few of the Iroquois tribes. I know the NA civ got a lot of slack from posters as being unworthy of a place in civ, but these city names show that pre-Columbus, there were thriving cities all over North America.

"Few people realize that the Poverty Point site, at 1500 B.C., was the commercial and governmental center of its day. In its time, the Poverty Point site had the largest, most elaborate earthworks anywhere in the western hemisphere."

I'm not sure why the name offends you, it sounds dignified to me, but then I've actually studied it some.

There is no surviving "native" name for these peoples. Poverty Point represents the oldest cultural and governmental center in what is now the United States. Why is that not worthy of being the capital of the Native American civilzation?


I've also studied a fair bit about this from an Anthropological perspective, and I wholly concede that the names are genuine names given to the peoples and places thanks to a lack of surviving authentic names.

My problem with it is that some are in native languages and some are in English and these only have an academic relation to the subject, not an authentic one.

I'd rather use known indigenous place names, even if they were slightly less appropriate (i.e. settlements rather than cities)..... which is what I intend to do by modding my game. There are plenty of Sioux settlement names, Tatanka Iyotanka was a Lakotan Sioux.... the 2 fit perfectly for me. Far better than assorted names of a wide range of different peoples covering a span of hundreds of years (most of those place names aren't contemporary with each other.... and many of them are thousands of miles apart).

It's an interesting topic and in many ways I can see why Firaxis chose to do it, personally though I find that this choice doesnt fit well with all the other civs in the game.... given that there is a perfectly simple solution, I disagree with their choice to do it this way.

I probably won't edit them now, I'm liking them.

When looking over the new leaders/civs last night, Sitting Bull/Native Americans jumped out at me as a standout civ to play, especially in multiplayer. I fired up a quick game (Prince, great plains, epic) and in the 30-45 minutes I had to play, it looks very promising. So promising in fact, that I'm afraid it will get nerfed in the first patch.

Dog warriors are just like axemen and don't require any resources, so even if you get BW at the same time as your opponent, you can still whip out a decent little stack of dog warriors before they hook up bronze and get their first axeman. I did that in my simple game and wiped out Isabella while she only had warriors and a single archer, then severely damaged 2 other neighbors before they had enough archers stacked up in their cities to make it costly to keep pursuing.

I had to stop playing after that, but the next part of the strategy would be to build totem poles and barracks and start cranking out archers - anyone even thinking about a counter attack would be walking into a bloodbath. Totem poles + barracks = 2 promotions + protective (start with drill and garrison) = level 5 uber archers right off the bat!

I didn't build the pyramids because I wanted to take advantage of the early UU (maybe that's the balance with this civ that will keep it from getting nerfed?), but I think I could still build Great Library and sit back and let my super archers take care of things while I tech away.

Mesa Verde and Casa Grande are real cities? Portuguese name.

Those are Spanish names, aren't they?

Some words have the same meaning in spanish and portuguese and that seems to be the case here: Mesa Verde and Casa Grande have the same meaning in both languages (green table and big house).

All the same, Lake Jackson might be the most ironically named city in the whole game. A bit like if France had a city named Anglophilia. :p

Yeah when I did advanced start I had 2-3 cities with totem pole and barracks.

Holy... wow.. ouch... yeah... it.... wasn't pretty. Well for the barbs at least!:lol:

Then having those promotions all over... for defenders, yeah. I build defenders for my new cities with my old ones... and, I have a strong defense even on the frontier!

Almost forgot one exploit for Native America is Stonehenge. Free totem poles in all your cities.

Think about it. :eek: Then go Theocracy and Vassalage? + Barracks?

If you also get Pyramids ---> Police state.

Hoardes of Archers/Longbows/Crossbows with tons of XP from the getgo.



Then be led by Churchil for -25% xp needed?

Ouch.

I wonder if the firaxians sit back and giggle about all the drama and debate they cause with the leaders, civs, and now city names that they include in their *game*.

I composed the Native American city list and as many have pointed out, I went for genuine places that usually represent real, important, sizable and durable settlements, the closest things the Native Americans had to real cities (but at the same time since the Native Americans are supposed to represent all Native American tribes I tried to ensure there was sufficient variety as well: while most names are either mound builder or pueblo sites (as those were the most important ones historically), settlements from tribes as varying as the Canadian Inuit, the Californian Ohlone, Florida's Apalachee and Maine's Abenaki are present).

This often forced me to use European names as the native names of these places are not known to us today. That's unfortunate but there's no perfect solution for this civ anyway, this whole civ is problematic to begin with (although IMO still better than the Sioux who never had ANY cities or anything close to it -- they weren't a civilization by any stretch of the definition, but that's been discussed to death already). IMO it's not much worse than some of the other civs: the Egyptians and Persians have mostly Greek and Arabic names, the Carthaginians and Celts Roman ones, the Aztec and Incan lists have plenty of Spanish names on their lists, etc. Not to mention that many modern civs like the Germans and Russians have their names anglified (Cologne instead of Köln, Moscow instead of Moskva, etc). It of course stands out more with the Native Americans but a lot of civs have names that aren't authentic.

You could argue that native names are more authentic but problem with that is that there are virtually NO sizable and durable Native American settlements if which we know their native name (even many of the 'native' names on my list are the names that modern NA tribes or even modern American historians gave to these sites, not their original names). You'd have to resort to making sh*t up or just using random terms that have no historic significance of any kind, as has been done so often by Firaxis in the past -- but I feel that's got to be the worst solution of all (I've worked hard to remove the leftovers of that from Civ4: I recreated the Zulu and Indian city lists from scratch as well as all the lists in BtS and some of the other ones in Warlords and before). This is a history game, the city lists should be based on real history.

In the end it's a matter of personal preference though. I'm sure plenty of mods for the Native Americans will appear, some to just replace the city names with more authentic-sounding ones or tribe names, some to change the civ to the Sioux or Iroquois and some will simple remove it from the game entirely. I think those are all valid ways of dealing with this issue, everyone will have to decide for themselves what they like best.

Locutus, I thought your city lists were great for the most part. Little things like Mutal instead of Tikal, some of the new Indian cities, etc. I thought your choice of Yasodharapura instead of Angkor for Khmer was kind of questionable. I know that Yasodharapura basically is Angkor, but Angkor is such a more aesthetically pleasing name. I am thinking about modding my game for the first time just to make this change. ;)

Thanks for the compliment :)

Yasodharapura was the name of several Khmer capitals, including their first and most important one. You can't really consider the 'Angkor' as such a capital as it was more like a small region of 25x50 kms that held dozens of different cities, even if it's considered a single argeological site today. In fact about half the Khmer city list is located in that region, so you'd have a tough time filling the rest of the city list if you simplified things like that.

I can understand the aesthetic sentiment but aesthetically to most of us the entire Khmer city list sucks donkey balls anyway ;)

:lol: True enough! Thanks for the reply and for the great work!

@Locutus: I'm glad you tried your best regarding the authenticity of civ city names - great to see you post. :D
I have a question: how do I mod or add more names to those already in the game? Do I just open the HTML in notepad and type in what I want (observing the text format and syntax)? Or does it involve adjusting more than one file?

Well, I just did the research, apparently Firaxis considers me above such petty things as implementing the lists in XML ;)

Nevertheless, if you open Beyond the Sword\Assets\XML\Civilizations\CIV4CivilizationInf os.xml in any text editor you can add the tags for new cities there (follow the format already used), but you'll have to add the actual names in the localisation folder: Beyond the Sword\Assets\XML\Text\CIV4GameText_Cities_BTS.xml -- add them there (or in any other file in that folder for that matter) again using the format already used.

Technically if you can't be bothered with localisation you could just type the city names themselves in CIV4CivilizationInfos.xml directly as well and not bother with tags. But with things like special characters (like the ö in Köln) that might cause problems and of course if you later decide that you do want to localise names (which might become an issue if you release your changes as a public mod) you'll have to switch to tags after all so I would recommend caution in that regard.

^ Thank you for the tips! :thumbsup: :D