Always wanted to see them in Civ, and now I have my chance.

http://img182.imageshack.us/img182/782/b1dg8.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

This civ looks like a more balanced version of the Incans, with the strong Financial and Expansive traits, a UB that improves the otherwise very underused Colosseum into a +3 happiness Ball Court, and a seemingly defensively oriented UU Spearman which is resourceless and immune to first strikes.

Settings are Immortal Standard Continents because I like jumping in at the deep end, and I get rewarded with a nice start that has lots of (uber) fish:

http://img440.imageshack.us/img440/2889/b2mj3.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Our starting techs are Mysticism and Mining, and I decide to delay the religious play in order to get Fishing first and connect a couple of those seafood resources asap.

Bring it on Uberfish. First BtS game I am going to see in progress. I am crossing my fingers that there are more gems down there since that will make a hell of a city then and maybe we can see cooperations in action. The UB with +3 happy's is just plain great.

with expansive how can you go anything but worker first with ag -> bw -> fishing just seems wrong to me, are fish that strong when not starting with fishing? i don't think so.

Nice. Give em hell, uberfish. Let's see what this BTS AI is made of.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Spearmen just require Bronze, not Bronze working as a tech. Therefore, you could build Holkans with just Hunting. I'd be looking to Hunting first and see if the Holkan Rush they discussed is a viable gamit with the Mayans in BtS. Mind you Fishing would be the second tech researched...

I don't plan to get BTS for a long time yet, (just got Warloads version recently). But I'll be keeping an eye on this game.

I also have been told the AI's improvements isn't as great as it was hyped up to be.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Spearmen just require Bronze, not Bronze working as a tech.

But you can't see bronze untill Bronze Working. Or am i missing something here?

Edit: Ahh, so Mayans unique spear does not need any resources

well with all those fish and forests he wont have any decent production without boats/workers... Going AG->BW->Fishing->Hunting seem like a preferable path to me and prolly get out a second city before starting building units. Imune to fist strikes is not bad and they can get city rider with barracks.

You are correct, Meiz, but the Holkan doesn't require Bronze like a normal Spearman, so you could be able to build them with just Hunting.

Actually if build your barracks while researching Hunting, and get a worker out somewhere along the way, you can be spamming Holkans while researching worker techs and building a settler or two for your land grabs...

Spamming holkans without much in the way of improvements wouldn't help much... and it would slow down your development tremendously. BW is for the whip and chop, both quite important with this kind of start and leader and whipping holkans work quite ok...

I'm pretty sure you need bronze working and hunting as prereq techs, although bronze resource is not necessary. Check the civilopedia

straight to immortal?
if it was anyone else, I'd say it's foolish.
I guess in Uberfish it's the Uber that counts ;).
I would have started warrior too, you certainly want to grow while researching fishing, and you certainly want to explore to find your first victim neighbour.

I'm known for unorthodox openings, if no one questions what I am doing I have failed :) Here's what I'm doing with my fishing

http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/2278/b3kf9.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

I'm temporarily working the clam with financial at 2/0/3 to speed up my 2nd research (Polytheism) and it will be 4/0/3 soon. The first builds are a couple of fishing boats and a warrior to replace one that was eaten by lions.

http://img507.imageshack.us/img507/4097/b4cj0.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

The next tech is Bronze to start working towards the UU and to look for military resources.

My new warrior discovers the Vikings, and I decide to put the new improved AI to the test by stealing an exposed worker to see how it will respond.

http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/7800/b5ou8.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

who needs to build workers ? :lol:

great thread already

expancive, whoi needs cheaper workers when you can steal them... Oh you dont need BW for the UU!! However it is nice for chopping and whipping. AG is a must now that you have a worker. Though hunting first might be better to get your guys out there though seeing as you have decleared war allready ragnar will likely have too many troops to easily take the city with spearmen.

I would go hunting, and (whipping/)chopping holkans. Ragnar's capital looks good enough for a second city ;).

Holkans do require Bronze Working, according to this:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/113636/Holkan.JPG

Apparently Spearmen don't, but the Holkan has the added requirement of Bronze Working

Oh you dont need BW for the UU!!

Yes you do. FACT

I can't tell from the screenshot: Did you found hinduism???

Looks like a nice 1/2 way city between you and Ragnar could be 2N of the cows, but it will need IW and Calendar to be developed...also, with just plains cows, it won't grow very fast. Bummer.

1N of the corn also looks good. You get corn on board right away meaning a quickly whipped monument...and eventually it will be a solid commerce city.

Also looks like you have a decent production city E of your capital. Maybe that is the one you will look to build first for Holkan spammage?

Those floods and hills east of Capital looks to be a nice production 2nd city. Further south 1W of cow looks like a nice commerce city with Dye, cow, corn, suger and many river tiles(Ragnar probably will get there first though). Gem/Stone/Suger is a nice hybrid city.

Some early war against Ragnar is nice for trainning troops and possibly caputure/raze some cities for cash.

This should be fun, looking forward to following this one.

Just as a general question on the effectivess of Holkans to anyone who has played with them: are they comparable to Skirmishers? Are Skirimishers better due to the extra first strikes?

My new warrior discovers the Vikings, and I decide to put the new improved AI to the test by stealing an exposed worker to see how it will respond.

Aren't you afraid of the AI attacking you for stealing a worker?

I do agree with you about the fish thought although from what I have been reading on this site--most players prefer land lock to coastal cities. Do you have any thoughts on that?

Aren't you afraid of the AI attacking you for stealing a worker?


This is, indeed, a valid concern. The new AI was taught how to steal workers like players, so any unprotected worker near your border is at risk.

Holkans are a pretty good rush unit, but you are likely to exhaust a stack of them taking the enemy capital (if that is the first city you go for). Subsequent cities will probably require the aid of axemen/swordsmen to be cracked.

(yes, I founded and adopted Hinduism.)

The only source of Bronze was in the Viking capital radius, so the next move was to research Agriculture and Hunting and start training Holkans.

I decided to found my 2nd city in the jungle between the cows and gems because I would be researching Iron as my first tech out of ancient anyway. It was also located midway between my capital and the Viking capital, so it was a good and easily defendable military base. Around this time the Egyptians under Rameses made contact with a scout.

I sent the Holkans out to harrass the Vikings, pillaging their copper, picking off their roaming archers and stealing 2 more workers and a settler which only had 1 archer for escort. This was sloppy play by the AI, but it was making up for it by whipping units and workers out of its capital.

Eventually Ragnar made a bad mistake, sending most of his defending archers either to sit in Haithabu which I wasn't attacking or to wander the countryside aimlessly. I managed to get a 5 vs 2 at Nidaros which was just enough to take the city.

http://img236.imageshack.us/img236/5102/b6pl5.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

With my remaining troops wounded, I signed peace and switched into expand and claim resources mode founding another two cities.

http://img67.imageshack.us/img67/3856/b7mr6.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Yeah it's one of my patented Financial games where I didn't bother building any cottages yet because I'm busy connecting up resources.

City number 6 would obviously go at the elephant site to the east. However I demonstrated that humans could play just as bad as the AI at this point. I thought the Moai Statues (+1 hammer in water tiles in city) were a world wonder instead of a national wonder and rushed to build it in my capital. This left me temporarily short of units, and in the meantime Ragnar's second city borders expanded reclaiming his copper, and he built some axes and other random troops to retake the lightly defended Nidaros.

This set me back hundreds of years as I basically wasted a lot of resources capturing and failing to hold the city, and now to move back to full military production when I really wanted to develop my economy.

While I was training axes and swords for this new phase of the war, I was hoping Haithabu would flip to me, but never got a second revolt.

http://img159.imageshack.us/img159/1888/b8ke9.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

I had to brute-force the cities as I was slow getting to Construction, and it was a very bloody affair with the AI whipping defenders liberally. I did get a great general early on which I sent to Mutal as a military instructor to be able to train Shock axes straight out.

http://img234.imageshack.us/img234/3589/b9hj0.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

It turned out that Ragnar had managed to grab another city in the south which had both horses and iron.

http://img236.imageshack.us/img236/1750/b10tp2.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Oh, my second Great General Medic 3 chariot actually got a few kills of weakened units and took the +1 movement promotion which turned out to be quite useful.

Ragnar makes up for Haithabu having failed to culture flip by just giving it to me for peace when he's reduced to 2 cities anyway.

http://img482.imageshack.us/img482/1066/b11cl4.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Haithabu was his only city with Hinduism, I asked him to convert anyway to see what happened (it didn't work)

My tech is pretty awful right now. The Viking war has been costly in terms of missed economic opportunities and with just one other viable civilization on the continent there has been very little trading available. I didn't even actually research alphabet. But I have 10 cities and plenty of cottages coming online soon, which should let me get back into the game.

So, the early game has played out very much like it would in Warlords, which is to be expected.

Just as a general question on the effectivess of Holkans to anyone who has played with them: are they comparable to Skirmishers? Are Skirimishers better due to the extra first strikes?

They are better than skirmishers - they get city raider 1 with a barracks and are immune to first strikes. In my first game as the Maya, Joao of Portugal decided to found his second city next to my capital. I did the obvious think and attacked him. Oporto was only defended by one archer (there was another on his way) and was taken at the loss of one holkan. In Lisbon i found 40% cultural defences and 3 archers. I brought 6 holkans, took the capital, losing 3. This was on monarch/epic speed BTW.

Some observations:
1. The rush is viable if you are very close to a neighbour and have decent production/food in your capital. Setting up a second city is unnecessary. I think you should bring at least 2 holkans for every 1 archer.
2. The computer seems more determined to get metals early on now, and obviously if they get copper your holkans are gonna die.

Edit: Damn it the whole round just got posted while i was typing this. Anyway it was more of a response to Frob2900's question, than a suggestion about this particular game.

Thanks for posting this Uberfish, it's always nice to see some good high-level play.

A request - unless you hate them, I'd love to see resource tags turned on. I think you founded your second city on the tile I would have, but I can't see the resources to be sure.

with expansive how can you go anything but worker first

The 25% bonus to Worker production isn't very strong when your city is only size 1. When playing an Expansive civ I usually grow the capital for a bit before banging out a Worker to take full advantage of the extra hammers. Starting by seafood plays into this strategy perfectly.

The Screen shot was in German I believe, and if they have included Bronze working as a required tech, then the only use they have are either anti Cavalry or if you have no metal to work with. That nerfs the Unit to the point where it could suck...

I'll still try it, and you don't have to race to connect to bronze, but if it is to Spearmen what the Jaguar was to the Swordsman, then the Maya got ripped off.

The Screen shot was in German I believe, and if they have included Bronze working as a required tech, then the only use they have are either anti Cavalry or if you have no metal to work with. That nerfs the Unit to the point where it could suck...

I'll still try it, and you don't have to race to connect to bronze, but if it is to Spearmen what the Jaguar was to the Swordsman, then the Maya got ripped off.

They are as strong as the usual Spear but don't require resources and have the Bonus of being immune to first strike so this UU is quite powerfull.

But it's best advantage is delayed by adding BW to the required techs...

A resourceless str 4 Unit available at the cheap Hunting tech would be too powerfull.

A resourceless str 4 Unit available at the cheap Hunting tech would be too powerfull.

But a cheaper resources str 4 Unit available at Archery with no counter isn't?

^^^ Archer is one more tech down the line and skirmishers cant get city raider promos. Still i'd have to agree that holkans requiring just hunting would not be overpowered.

But a cheaper resources str 4 Unit available at Archery with no counter isn't?


The skirmisher comes one tech later, doesn't counter anything and has no city-raider promotion.

The Holkan has City-raider promos, counters all horse-units and cancels one of the advantages of the Archer-units.

But it's best advantage is delayed by adding BW to the required techs...

You can still get a few out before you find and hook up bronze. I reckon you should get a few units out before you would be ready to build axes. The resistance to first strikes means they should win battles against archers regularly (especially once battlehardened with CR2) but axes may make mincemeat of them.

Admittedly it's hardly game breaking as you should be able to win your first war anyway and by time your seccond war arrives the AI axemen will severely hinder them.

Yeah, immortal in BTS on your first game IS, in fact, suicidal. I'm just praying that you'll last longer than the Mayans did in real history. I do not doubt you as a player that I have learnt the most from, but why didn't you try out Monarch first or something?

Did could be very cool, I'm interesting how you will fare in this game.

I really want to see some good use of the espionage system if you cna fit it into your strategy. I just got the expansion last night on Direct2drive so I haven't had enough time to see much yet.

What does a spy specialist in a city do? just esp points or other things too?

The game goes into a long phase of economic reconstruction at this point. I'm running a straight CE as the only city with great food apart from the capital is Uppsala where I didn't want to destroy the already developed AI cottages.

http://img124.imageshack.us/img124/7093/b13zo4.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Moai Statues in action - they're getting me an extra 7 hammers in Mutal right now which is certainly not to be sniffed at. They'd be great on an archipelago map as unlike the Colossus they don't expire. Why they are classified as a national wonder instead of a world wonder is unclear though...

http://img388.imageshack.us/img388/7407/b15jc5.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

I cleaned out the Vikings to claim the rice and get rid of Motherland unhappiness, my research is back up to respectable by now but I wasn't really expecting this:

http://img120.imageshack.us/img120/3805/b16xn9.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Liberalism free tech still open in 1420!? No contact with the other continent still? This is unheard of at Immortal.

Ramesses has been constantly carrying out spy missions against me since the Vikings were eliminated, poisoning water supplies, trying to incite revolts and generally being up to no good. My southernmost city got culture flipped too, which may have been a spy-induced revolt. My guess is that the Espionage slider is consuming a significant proportion of AI resources that would otherwise go into research.

http://img521.imageshack.us/img521/5841/b17mn4.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

It's about 1500 when an AI contacts me, and it's Justinian who turns out to be the tech leader. I actually get the circumnavigation bonus shortly after this too. The other AIs turn out to be Tokugawa, Genghis and Sitting Bull, which probably accounts for some of the slow tech pace as these three are all backwards.

http://img54.imageshack.us/img54/7613/b18du3.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Further observations:

- The Egyptians have apparently beelined to Democracy and Communism to get all the +spying buildings and are really annoying. However they've skimped on military tech to do this. No prizes for guessing my counter strategy.
- The other continent actually completely blocks sea routes from east to west as it stretches between both polar caps.
- Native American city names are stupid.
- Constantinople has eleven (!) wonders.

The skirmisher comes one tech later, doesn't counter anything and has no city-raider promotion.

The Holkan has City-raider promos, counters all horse-units and cancels one of the advantages of the Archer-units.

I think you're looking at this the wrong way - Holkans don't have automatic CR right? So by default it's a strength 4 unit when attacking. It won't therefore be any better attacking a city than a Chariot or Skirmisher would be, it will just get out a bit earlier. But that's the essence of a UU - it should be a bit more powerful. The way it is now, I'd much rather rush with chariots or choke with skirmishers than research Bronze and then still build spears. Why not just build axes once Bronze is done? Considering the Holkan with only hunting as a pre-req as overpowered just doesn't make sense to me when considering Immortals or War Chariots are about as easy to get, more useful long term, and IMHO much stronger.

And there's another side - defence. Holkans just don't have a high enough strength rating against archers to make them ideal city attackers to me. One he other hand, you could use them as a choke unit, but tell me, what would be easier to knock off a forested hill next to your city: a Holkan or a Skirmisher? Personally I'd way rather have to deal with the former.

Yeah, immortal in BTS on your first game IS, in fact, suicidal. I'm just praying that you'll last longer than the Mayans did in real history. I do not doubt you as a player that I have learnt the most from, but why didn't you try out Monarch first or something?

Uberfish is a VERY good player, I have confidence in him. Also, the jury is still out on whether or not BtS is harder, easier, or the same difficulty as Warlords.

EDIT: Crossposted. That Liberalism date is really late. Wow. Now we see if the AI really does pick up in the Industrial era as claimed. If not, I foresee a patch to cut back espionage investment by the AI.

I can't believe how slow the tech pace is in BtS. Is espionage worth falling that far behind? I don't see it tbh.

But then again given the AI's better ability with war, if it also had a strong tech advantage, I don't know what the human player would do :lol:

I can't believe how slow the tech pace is in BtS. Is espionage worth falling that far behind? I don't see it tbh.

But then again given the AI's better ability with war, if it also had a strong tech advantage, I don't know what the human player would do :lol:

It seems to me that they do things in bursts. I remember looking at the turns taken for the AI to research a tech (using espionage) and thinking crap, they are teching fast. However then they seem to stall and dont acquire any new techs for a while.

It seems to me that they do things in bursts. I remember looking at the turns taken for the AI to research a tech (using espionage) and thinking crap, they are teching fast. However then they seem to stall and dont acquire any new techs for a while.

Maybe it's imaginary, but I feel that the AI is less incestuous with its technology trades--no more "keeping it in the family." ;|

I can trade a tech over to another Civilization, and to my surprise it won't instantly end up in the pockets of everyone else. This possible unwillingness to trade may have effectively reduced the tech speed.

But I don't really know. :P

Yep good point, the AI does seem to be less wiling to tech trade. Also this:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/120366/Civ4ScreenShot0046.JPG

(Gandhi's city in the renaissance age; look at the sliders.)

For this game I've been trying to get by with the espionage points from buildings, if the AI runs 30% regularly that would explain why I'm doing badly on the spying front and why it techs slow. I am not sure that espionage investment has been worth it, water poisoning two out of ten cities of an Expansive civ and sabotaging a few improvements doesn't actually do any significant damage. I've probably had a couple of techs stolen but I can't really tell which :)

Probably in this sort of 1-on-1 situation on a continent it's worth trying to get a Great Spy.

Anyway I continue to sacrifice tech up to Rifling/Steel, revolt to Nationhood and Theocracy, draft a couple of rounds of Rifles to supplement regular production and declare war on Egypt. Initially I'm facing just the new Cuirassier unit (strength 12 cav) and a bunch of obsolete Medieval troops. I keep getting bombed by a few Airships and suicide cats and trebs, but having a medic 3 unit along keeps the troops healed.

http://img262.imageshack.us/img262/6963/b20vm3.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Memphis contained the Statue of Zeus, as this wonder increases enemy WW it was probably important to capture it early in the campaign.

On the other continent, the Byzantines invade then vassalize Japan to maintain their point lead.

A nice random event to get in your capital:

http://img523.imageshack.us/img523/2949/b21fl5.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

The AI production continues to be impressive, unfortunately its tech and troop selection are rather less so. Ramesses continues to spam cuirassiers against a pure Rifle force which is suicidal, then moves up to cavalry which are merely fighting at a big disadvantage :(

Honestly antagonizing another player (whether human or AI) with spies en masse when you're behind on military tech is a very dumb move.

http://img510.imageshack.us/img510/2365/b23hl6.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

My first successful spy mission against Egypt puts Pi-Ramesses into revolt for 1 turn. Unfortunately the defending units don't take 50% damage as they do in a cultural revolt, but this mission can be used to save you a turn of sieging.

http://img262.imageshack.us/img262/3427/b24zc7.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Infantry are now on the way and Fascism to clear up WW will basically seal the Egyptian defeat.

http://img265.imageshack.us/img265/3567/b26ty7.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Got to love the silly civic combinations you can run in this game. I start Rushmore in a secondary production city, in the meantime I have enough jails up to go back down to 10% culture with no problem.

http://img248.imageshack.us/img248/6660/b28rg5.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

This is the city that originally culture flipped to Egypt. It overlaps other cities too much to be worth keeping now and I'll raze it.

Amusingly, at this point every other AI on the planet decides to throw in their 2 galleons' worth of troops and declare war on Egypt too. If you look closely there's a small Byzantine stack dropped near Hieraconopolis, but I beat them to taking the city. Unfortunately just before I can wipe Egypt completely off the map, their one remaining city vassalizes to Justinian which is rather annoying since Hieraconopolis is going to repeatedly revolt now. Maybe I should have vassalized Ramesses myself to prevent this.

In any case, consolidating the conquered Egyptian lands makes me score leader. The GNP figures claim Justinian has 1.5 times my GNP but I doubt their accuracy has improved any since Warlords. He's only about 4 relevant techs ahead and I think I should be able to take this down with a spaceship without too much trouble.

http://img265.imageshack.us/img265/3302/b29il9.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

In the meantime I'm going to found a couple of corporations to play with, the Mining and Sushi corps.

I can't believe how slow the tech pace is in BtS. Is espionage worth falling that far behind? I don't see it tbh.

But then again given the AI's better ability with war, if it also had a strong tech advantage, I don't know what the human player would do :lol:

I'm a bit worried about the slow Ai teching, tried one game on prince, in 1880 combustion and computers were researched by no one (also not by me :blush: but i was really fooling around with only 4 cities). Prince is not immortal but here i see lib hasn't been researched in 1420 Ad. Apparently a lot of effort from Ai goes to spy efforts probably making it very easy also on this level to win a straight space race.

As much as i like a good spy implementation, it shouldn't detract the AI's in keeping up with research. Still played only one game and read this one, maybe it's more difficult than it seems.

Just as using siege weapons quick researching to renaissance military such as Cavalry and Grens has been nerfed, domination will be a lot harder and if my thoughts on Space races are correct this might become the real challenge.

I just don't think espionage is so great that it warrants 20-30% of your slider.

I'm thinking I will dedicate one city to espionage later in the game with scotland yard, some greatspy-points wonders, the espionage buildings, and as many spy specialists as i can run (subsequent great spies will be settled here).

Otherwise, I don't plan on adjusting the slider too much. Especially not when I can out-tech them to military techs and then go nuts.

Since spy missions are carried away in an instant, turning Espionage up to 100% for one turn before you use a Spy makes sense. No point stockpiling them.

Espionage is alright for helping diplomacy. Got to love religion and civic change. I've seen the AI use it mostly for poisoning and building destruction tho.

In my latest game on Immortal, city investigation revealed the AIs to go for about 10% espionage and ~50% science.

Is it just me or post 1700 AD inflation is crazy high?

Is it just me or post 1700 AD inflation is crazy high?

Inflation has been ramped up considerably and the formula is now quadratic instead of linear. See the numerous threads about corporations in the BtS forum or don't if you want to stay sane.

Concerning espionage, the passive benefits can be very nice such as seeing what others are researching and their cities. Whether they are worth the cost remains to be seen, but investing heavily on espionage for a few turns prior to invading someone in order to gain better intelligence about their troops sounds useful.

I think you're looking at this the wrong way - Holkans don't have automatic CR right? So by default it's a strength 4 unit when attacking. It won't therefore be any better attacking a city than a Chariot or Skirmisher would be, it will just get out a bit earlier. But that's the essence of a UU - it should be a bit more powerful. The way it is now, I'd much rather rush with chariots or choke with skirmishers than research Bronze and then still build spears. Why not just build axes once Bronze is done? Considering the Holkan with only hunting as a pre-req as overpowered just doesn't make sense to me when considering Immortals or War Chariots are about as easy to get, more useful long term, and IMHO much stronger.

And there's another side - defence. Holkans just don't have a high enough strength rating against archers to make them ideal city attackers to me. One he other hand, you could use them as a choke unit, but tell me, what would be easier to knock off a forested hill next to your city: a Holkan or a Skirmisher? Personally I'd way rather have to deal with the former.
.

In a MP game where you share techs a Holkan right from the start would have a good chance to kill you before you get your Skirmisher.
But the reason could be quite simple: there is no Unit available right from the first tech-column which has higher str than a Warrior.

PS: that some UU are stronger than others is not disputed

Nice played. Normally I try to keep up with the enemy espionage points and most of the time running 10% espionage is enough.
You game just shows war always is a good counter. :D

Also nice going on founded both Mining Inc and Sid's Sushi Co. They are the best corporations together with Creative Constructions.

with expansive how can you go anything but worker first with ag -> bw -> fishing just seems wrong to me, are fish that strong when not starting with fishing? i don't think so.

he didn't have a forest hill tile to work, and expansive trait needs at least 4 hammer to get the bonus. do u note that? very tricky, ah? ;)

In a MP game where you share techs a Holkan right from the start would have a good chance to kill you before you get your Skirmisher.


But Skirmishers require
Hunting 40 :science:
Archery 60 :science:
and cost 25 :hammers:

Holkans (as has been stated lots of times above) require
Bronzeworking 120 :science:
Hunting 40 :science:
and cost 35 :hammers:

Why on earth would would one get a Holkan before Skirmishers on multiplayer???

not to mention that you have to march your holkans all the way toward the enemy empire, whereas skirms just have to appear in your cities...

not to mention that you have to march your holkans all the way toward the enemy empire, whereas skirms just have to appear in your cities...

Amen.

I am beginning to have a hard time seeing the Holkan as an "uber-rush" UU.. Like was mentioned above it's more likely a good barb archer counter + very good SoD component for metalless empires with construction.

But Skirmishers require
Hunting 40 :science:
Archery 60 :science:
and cost 25 :hammers:

Holkans (as has been stated lots of times above) require
Bronzeworking 120 :science:
Hunting 40 :science:
and cost 35 :hammers:

Why on earth would would one get a Holkan before Skirmishers on multiplayer???


They would if the Holkan would not require BW which is the whole point we discussed (and which you could have known before posting).

Got to love the silly civic combinations you can run in this game. I start Rushmore in a secondary production city, in the meantime I have enough jails up to go back down to 10% culture with no problem.


Police state, free speech and theocracy, modern Eygpt?

Re: Holkans
There was a big push in BtS to make early UUs resourceless. I don't know if this is to provide some balance to MP games, so getting your copper pillaged doesn't doom you, or if it's to protect the AI which seems particularly vulnerable to getting their military resources pillaged.

There has been a lot of attention given to making early aggression more difficult, starting with the Protective trait in Warlords.

The point of making a UU resourceless isn't to boost the raw power of the unit, it simply gives it more flexibility. People seem to take issue with [flexibility instead of raw power] because human players are better able to take advantage of quick beelines and press a raw number advantage than the AI is.

Resourceless UUs:
Camel Archer (Arabia - Vanilla)
Jaguar (Aztec - Vanilla)
Holkan (Maya - BtS)
Dog Soldier (Native America - BtS)

If you include all the UU's based on a unit that doesn't require resources to build the number starts to go up a lot.
Quecha
Musketeer
Skirmisher
Hwacha
Janissary
Bowman
Oromo Warrior
East Indiaman
Carrack

If a unit *requires* a resource to be built, that is a weakness. As a tradeoff, there should be a corresponding strength. You can see how Firaxis initially approached this issue - to make up for it, Jaguars are actually weaker than a base swordsman, and the reaction was generally poor. Camel Archers got a similar reaction. Skirmishers are viewed more favorably because they are strictly better than the unit they replace - but they aren't any more flexible.

I think the bowman is the most telling unit to use to show how Firaxis has addressed this issue - Hammurabi is Aggressive/Organized, a trait combo we all knew and liked in vanilla Tokugawa for domination/conquest. What use does he have for an archer UU? That doesn't utilize the aggressive trait at all! I know it frustrated me at first - to flex the full power of Hammurabi's traits you want to beeline to Bronze or maybe Iron and start cranking out the upgraded melee units. Where is the synergy? It struck me then that the point wasn't to always have awesome synergy between UU and leader traits - sometimes it's a balance or a failsafe. If Hammurabi has no metals or gets pillaged he still has a good option to fall back on and fight his way out. Or at least defend himself with - because Hammurabi without access to metals is crippled.
I looked at Sitting Bull and I was frustrated - why would you make a protective leader with a UB that enchances archery units and then go and give him a melee UU? Well it's probably because a human would pile up those synergies into something bordering on unbalanced, while the AI is less capable in that regard. So the Dog Soldier rounds out Sitting Bull's early military.
*Edit* This is also why Ghenghis and Kublai Khan frustrate me - especially Kublai. He has really good traits for a warmonger (Creative and Aggressive) but the UU and UB are horse archery techs, which doesn't leverage the Aggressive trait well at all (besides cheap barracks).

As for the BtS UUs that lost their dependence on a required resource - Holkans and Dog Soldiers- they not only lost a vulnerability but they gained significant advantages as well. Holkans are flat out better than spearmen, AND they lost their dependence on metal. Wouldn't it be nice if Jaguars were like that?
Dog Solider had their numbers tweaked - in most cases they are stronger than the base unit, and they lost a vulnerability as well.

This should sound obvious to veteran players, but hopefully it helps explain (what I think) Firaxis' intentions are with the gradual changes to UUs and the synergy with traits/UBs.

Re: Holkans
There was a big push in BtS to make early UUs resourceless. I don't know if this is to provide some balance to MP games, so getting your copper pillaged doesn't doom you, or if it's to protect the AI which seems particularly vulnerable to getting their military resources pillaged.

There has been a lot of attention given to making early aggression more difficult, starting with the Protective trait in Warlords.

The point of making a UU resourceless isn't to boost the raw power of the unit, it simply gives it more flexibility. People seem to take issue with [flexibility instead of raw power] because human players are better able to take advantage of quick beelines and press a raw number advantage than the AI is.

Resourceless UUs:
Camel Archer (Arabia - Vanilla)
Jaguar (Aztec - Vanilla)
Holkan (Maya - BtS)
Dog Soldier (Native America - BtS)
Vulture (Sumeria - BtS)

If you include all the UU's based on a unit that doesn't require resources to build the number starts to go up a lot.
Quecha
Musketeer
Skirmisher
Hwacha
Janissary
Bowman
Oromo Warrior
East Indiaman
Carrack

If a unit *requires* a resource to be built, that is a weakness. As a tradeoff, there should be a corresponding strength. You can see how Firaxis initially approached this issue - to make up for it, Jaguars are actually weaker than a base swordsman, and the reaction was generally poor. Camel Archers got a similar reaction. Skirmishers are viewed more favorably because they are strictly better than the unit they replace - but they aren't any more flexible.

I think the bowman is the most telling unit to use to show how Firaxis has addressed this issue - Hammurabi is Aggressive/Organized, a trait combo we all knew and liked in vanilla Tokugawa for domination/conquest. What use does he have for an archer UU? That doesn't utilize the aggressive trait at all! I know it frustrated me at first - to flex the full power of Hammurabi's traits you want to beeline to Bronze or maybe Iron and start cranking out the upgraded melee units. Where is the synergy? It struck me then that the point wasn't to always have awesome synergy between UU and leader traits - sometimes it's a balance or a failsafe. If Hammurabi has no metals or gets pillaged he still has a good option to fall back on and fight his way out. Or at least defend himself with - because Hammurabi without access to metals is crippled.
I looked at Sitting Bull and I was frustrated - why would you make a protective leader with a UB that enchances archery units and then go and give him a melee UU? Well it's probably because a human would pile up those synergies into something bordering on unbalanced, while the AI is less capable in that regard. So the Dog Soldier rounds out Sitting Bull's early military.
*Edit* This is also why Ghenghis and Kublai Khan frustrate me - especially Kublai. He has really good traits for a warmonger (Creative and Aggressive) but the UU and UB are horse archery techs, which doesn't leverage the Aggressive trait well at all (besides cheap barracks).

As for the BtS UUs that lost their dependence on a required resource - Holkans, Dog Soldiers, and Vultures - they not only lost a vulnerability but they gained significant advantages as well. Holkans are flat out better than spearmen, AND they lost their dependence on metal. Wouldn't it be nice if Jaguars were like that?
Dog Solider and Vultures had their numbers tweaked - in most cases they are stronger than the base unit, and they lost a vulnerability as well.

This should sound obvious to veteran players, but hopefully it helps explain (what I think) Firaxis' intentions are with the gradual changes to UUs and the synergy with traits/UBs.

Good points, but (and I should qualify this by mentioning I have not tested this in MP yet) some resourceless units are still totally unbalanced relative to others. Mayan Holkans are not going to worry me if I'm playing as Mansa. They just can't come fast enough and don't offer enough strength to scare me.

Sitting Bull on the other had - wow. His UU is anti-melee, to me a lot more valuable than anti-mounted. He's week on the early city attack, but he seems to have the perfect defence/choke synergy between his super-early UU and super-early UB and Protective trait. Not only will it be crazy-hard to kill a dog soldier and 4-promotion archer in a city, it will also be very very hard to take out those two units parked outside an enemy city. I just don't see how the Holkan had to have his power paired back when they let the Native Americans exist the way they are.

Holkans are a fine UU - even if you do have an easily accessible bronze, you can send a couple of them out early to prevent the enemy connecting theirs.

They're also a good resourceless counter to barbarian archers, and if you use them as anti-horse support units to an axe rush they do a little better against archers than regular spearmen do.

I'd say they are better than skirmishers just because archery is a dead end tech early game.

Just to point out vultures do need copper. They arent a resourceless UU.

Ok, my take on Corporations

Mining Inc (after factoring in all the various modifiers, Free Market, Wall Street headquarters, inflation) converts gold to production at about 2:1 in the mid 1800s for my civ, but this gets worse as the game goes on due to the massive inflation. There are already a few articles written on the BTS forum about this so I won't do the full analysis. My opinion at this early stage is that corporations shouldn't be mindlessly spammed everywhere, but I think they can be very useful boosting production or food in specific cities.

I think corporations should probably be decoupled from inflation though, because as it is I think it is too expensive to spread a foreign corporation and the AIs do it anyway (I sent a couple of Mining and Sushi executives to Mongolia and Genghis spread both corporations to all his cities by himself.)

Other late game stuff.

Rivers are now even more of an advantage thanks to levees. If you don't have any rivers, you'd better conquer someone who does if you want to keep up in production in the Industrial Age. With UniSuf + Levee even cottage cities on rivers become frighteningly productive. Factories now generate a lot more unhealthiness, making all the late game health techs more valuable. Even as an expansive civ I found that getting refrigeration and medicine to be very worthwhile.

Just to point out vultures do need copper. They arent a resourceless UU.

You're right, that's my mistake. I'll edit my post above to fix that.

They just can't come fast enough and don't offer enough strength to scare me. I don't really play MP but I'd be inclined to agree - but I'd argue that's intentional. I don't think Firaxis wants, or ever wanted people to be able to build 5+ of a single early-early unit and go wipe out a neighbor. I think the incremental changes they've made (protective trait, chariots counter axes, more resourcesless UUs) reflect that intent.

BTW, thanks for the thread, I'm really enjoying it so far.

@Scaphism: I had to do a major double-take there. I think you're actually quoting me, not Uberfish. Anyways, thanks for the vote of agreement.

Combustion in the 19th century does not look promising, although your land area does, and the weak military technology of the AI surprises me even more. Like you said, their production is impressive, but I am definitely a little confused as to why you are fighting at a technological advantage on immortal.

You're behind Justinian in GNP because you needed extra farms to combat poisoned water supplies.

If you wish, you could declare war on Egypt and see how good Justinian is at a naval invasion to protect his vassal.

Good points, but (and I should qualify this by mentioning I have not tested this in MP yet) some resourceless units are still totally unbalanced relative to others. Mayan Holkans are not going to worry me if I'm playing as Mansa. They just can't come fast enough and don't offer enough strength to scare me.

Not too many units scare me when I am Mansa Musa - from a purely defensive standpoint - but you can bet your ass when I am beelining my Chariots, War Chariots, Immortals, Numidian Cavalry, Keshiks or Horse Archers then turn the corner and meet the Mayans... it will be back to the drawing board.

It is all situational. My 2nd best score came through the much-maligned Montezuma. Largely on the shoulders of the Jaguar.

Like you said, their production is impressive, but I am definitely a little confused as to why you are fighting at a technological advantage on immortal.

Because Ramesses decided to focus so much on spying and spy techs instead of military. Most of his captured cities had built the spy buildings available at democracy/communism.

In 1911 my Universal Suffrage/Free Market town fest has caught up with Byzantium in space tech, although they got most of the late wonders.

http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/9075/b31hs1.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Inflation is pretty silly, these corporations are actually costing me almost 600 in maintenance because of it, though I'm getting back a lot of this cash from having spread corporations to Genghis.

http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/672/b32rt8.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

The space race is pretty much the same as before, except you need to get Composites for SS Casings now and the tech tree around Labs was rearranged a bit. Oh, and there are a couple of new military-only techs such as Laser to distract the AI. Basically it's been delayed for maybe 20 turns which gives players fighting Modern wars more time.

At about this time the Byzantines decide to increase their vassal collection by beating up on the poor backwards Native Americans, followed by the Mongols. I just ignore both sides' requests for help and launch my spaceship.

http://img514.imageshack.us/img514/4129/b33fw6.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

The Byzantines were obviously spending a substantial amount on espionage too, running 13 turns of max spying during a golden age after I finished research only got me up to 2/3 of their total accumulated points on me.

A bit of an anticlimactic win to be honest, I might just have gotten lucky but it felt easier than Warlords. More games will tell, I guess.

Leave it to uberfish to win the first BtS Immortal game. :lol:

Great job and a good read too. Thanks! :)

great job uber, you rock!

11 hours seems quite long. Is that usual on immortal? On monarch my space races are usually 3-5 hrs on normal speed.

Well played overall. I think they will work out some of the kinks (e.g., inflation/corporation) in the first patch. Overall though I would say the game is pretty good for a first run considering the amount of changes they made.

Good work. You like those financial leaders don't you :)

The game took longer than usual for me because the AI spammed lots of units. And yeah I like financial leaders because it generally means less time spent fooling around with specialists.

Nice Uber. I figured it was the lengthy amounts of warfare that took up the time. Well played overall.

I think that espionage isn't powerful enough to offset the power of warfare...

Amen.

I am beginning to have a hard time seeing the Holkan as an "uber-rush" UU.. Like was mentioned above it's more likely a good barb archer counter + very good SoD component for metalless empires with construction.

Its definitely not uber rush - the big strength for me is it means I don't have to research bronze super early and I don't have to wait to hook up copper which means I have a safe predictable path to barb defense and can take risks in other areas like getting cottages going early.

They don't do at all badly vs archers when attacking cities though - the ability to ignore first strikes is pretty handy and counters the lower strength.

I have noticed that the BTS AI is actually easier to beat economically on the higher levels. But I think going to war is much harder now, especially if you wait. IMO the best way to play on Emperor and above now is to grab as much land as possible as early as possible and then just build up peacefully and make strategic trades. Of course, good diplomacy must come with the package.

I have noticed that the BTS AI is actually easier to beat economically on the higher levels. But I think going to war is much harder now, especially if you wait. IMO the best way to play on Emperor and above now is to grab as much land as possible as early as possible and then just build up peacefully and make strategic trades. Of course, good diplomacy must come with the package.

True but not quite the way i see it: as you say you can get a technological edge so it is not too hard to get curassiers while your opponent has longbows....cavalry while your opponent has muskets....infantry when your opponent has rifles...you get the point. Anyway with more advance troops war is dramatically easier.

True but not quite the way i see it: as you say you can get a technological edge so it is not too hard to get curassiers while your opponent has longbows....cavalry while your opponent has muskets....infantry when your opponent has rifles...you get the point. Anyway with more advance troops war is dramatically easier.

That also depends on your difficulty level. I think Emperor+ AI should be able to keep up quite well with the player despite the unit spam. A slight tech advantage will not easily overcome huge numbers.

No more posts?:cry:

i didn't realise how many practicing necromancers there were on CFC... :p

It was an interesting read though. Funny to look at how little people knew about espionage when it first came out.

Definitely an interesting read to look back to. Laughed at the Maoi statues problem. :p

i didn't realise how many practicing necromancers there were on CFC... :p

It's not that old :blush::p:rolleyes:

one year and 18 days.

one year and 18 days.

Oh crap I just saw july 27 and posted.:lol::blush: