I have been playing three game with the Dutch so far and its UB the Dike really delivers. You (almost) want to beeline to Steam Power for it and rush them as fast if you can. :goodjob:

They increase your cities production intensively and in practice can be build in pretty much all your cities. In my current game for instance I have around 12 cities and was able to, and did in fact, build Dikes in 11 of those cities.

In most cities they have quite a strong effect. In coastal cities every sea tile gets to produce :hammers: and especially sea resources become great tiles producing :food:, :commerce: and :hammers:.

More inland cities with a river also are very much improved and get a strong production bonus resulting in, for instance, cottaged flood plains becoming dream tiles.

But besides this all, they also look really cool. If you look at the picture below, You really do get that small wall with a flat green piece of land behind it attached to your city. :lol:

http://www.civfanatics.com/gallery/files/9/4/0/6/5/dike.jpg

So are there any other players with experiences with the dike? What did you think and how much do you love them? :king:

So are there any other players with experiences with the dike? What did you think and how much do you love them? :king:

Only played one game as the Dutch yet, but I enjoyed those dikes. They do look good, and allow you to build navies quite quickly.

It's overpowered, definately on Archipelago and Islands map. One tile islands with +20 base shields, it's great! The Dutch FTW! >.<

I wouldn't say it's overpowered. There are other very strong UB's. But it certainly can be regarded as one of the best UB's and functions as pretty much an additional National Wonder, like the Moai Statues, that can be build in many cities.

You also need to consider that it is a late UB and The Netherlands lack a land UU. In the end it all balances out.

In any case, it's a real nice way to boost the production of a coastal city and create loads of privateers to go hunting your rivals.

In my current game I am constrained to a small watery corner of the contintent and a few Islands (who doesn't love it? One tile of land in middle of the oceans). Boy, do i loath the random generator for making me a viking and not a dutch!

The Dutch should also look to bag the Colossus, with the ease of Golden Ages now, coast tiles then become uber.

Colossus doesn't become obsolete till astro, and you can delay that tech (and it is worthwhile to do so in my view) a long, long time.

It's overpowered, definately on Archipelago and Islands map. One tile islands with +20 base shields, it's great! The Dutch FTW! >.<

I disagree with this being overpowered. It certainly brings a boost during the industrial era and beyond but using your example, the cost would require a significant amount of time to build it, i.e. 90-180 turns using just the city tile. It's more likely a player would switch to UniSuff and buy it outright for 750 gold each. OUCH! Once you have them built, you will have some decent production cities (if you planned ahead with a Military Academy and Moai Statues) but an inland Ironworks City will still outproduce.

I don't think it's wise to delay Astronomy with the Dutch, their UU is enabled then.

In all my games with the Dutch I have build the Colossus and the Great Lighthouse and they certainly boost early game :commerce:. Especially if you build them in a city with the Moai Statues. But as said, those wonders will go obsolete with Astronomy and you normally don't want to delay your UU. That said, the Dutch UU isn't always that great and needed, so you could try and delay Astronomy for awhile and combine the Dike with the :commerce: of the Colossus and the Great Lighthouse and possibly a Golden Age.

I don't think it's wise to delay Astronomy with the Dutch, their UU is enabled then.

Then you've yet to truely experience the power of the colossus, it can provide a vast tech bonus.

In a recent ladder ironman game I was so far ahead in tech I had nukes and SDI whilst the rest of them (many good players) were just getting to rifling.

Lack of astro doesn't stop you getting combustion and transports :) (unless there has been another WL to BTS change).

I already posted a few pics in the screenshot thread from my current Dutch game, but let me just reiterate that rush-buying Dikes is awesome! It was especially nice combining this with a golden age, as you can make the civic switch to Universal Suffrage for free if needed and as the newly purchased Dikes mean that every sea square suddenly produces 2 hammers for the rest of the golden age. Here's an of illustration what this did to my production both during and after the golden age: http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=156475&d=1185247453

I saw your thread, impressive city.

I had something similar in my first game. Coastal city three fish resources, Colossus, Great Lighthouse, Moai Statues and even a military instructor. I didn't survive long enough to reach Steam Power, but it was a brilliant city, able to create every military unit in one turn and with quite some experience. :D

Lack of astro doesn't stop you getting combustion and transports :) (unless there has been another WL to BTS change).

This is true. I probably would have avoided Astronomy longer but I didn't realize that it's not a necessary prerequisite of Scientific Method, which reveals Oil. Of course, you will have to research Astronomy when you want to get Physics.

Btw, the Great Lighthouse obsoletes with Corporation, not Astronomy. It should be noted that Astronomy obsoletes also monuments and Stonehenge which admittedly isn't a big deal with the Dutch. Playing a civ like Carthage, I could see myself avoiding Astronomy quite a bit if I had both the Colossus and Stonehenge/lots of monuments.

Also, Temple of Artemis, another reasonably useful wonder for a coastal city, obsoletes with Scientific Method as does The Parthenon.

Wow! so you can build these w/o a river on costal! OP right there... Cre/Fin are great archy map traits, naval UU... Dutch are OP on archy.

Well, Dutch was the first choice of mine when I got the game last week. So far they have been pretty solid. A coastal city with fish and lots of water make for a very strong early city. The Statues, Collossus, lighthouse, and dike are nuts.....

3 food
2 hammers
4 coins

I had always though the game was weak on naval. The Dutch seems to do good in this area with their UU and the Privateer, you can do some fun things with the game.

It's only 2 food on sea, 3 in fresh water lakes.

I played as the Dutch for one game, but quit before I got to steampower. It would have made sense to have dikes as soon as windmills, since that would have made sense historically.

I have a Dutch city on the coast, mostly water tiles but with about 5 or 6 hile tiles on a river. Build the ironwork + Maoi Status + Dike + Factory + Forge + Coal plant + Industrial park + military academic and a few "great instructors". This city produces more military unit than the rest of my empire combined.

Leeves are nice buildings by itself on the right map, but dikes are just great. They make single island cities "almost" worthwhile.

I especially like the fact that costal wonders + dikes and the UU are mutually exclusive. Quite a nice balancing move.

Leeves are nice buildings by itself on the right map, but dikes are just great. They make single island cities "almost" worthwhile.

I especially like the fact that costal wonders + dikes and the UU are mutually exclusive. Quite a nice balancing move.

Single island cities are great! Well, two tiles on the island would be better since there's more coast to work but even with one tile they're soon able to pay for themselves and more if they have a seafood available. Dikes just make them even better and able to build infrastructure at a very reasonable speed. Of course, I don't know how economical it is rush-buy dikes at every single tiny island but it's certainly a great way to get production where you want it.

The Dike (and the Levee in general) is great. I founded Amsterdam between two rivers, and one of my mines had a random event which gave it +1 hammer (found lots of tin or something). I built the Ironworks there and it was the highest production city I ever had... Pentagon in less than 10 turns, all entertainment wonders in 6 turns, CR3 Modern Armor every turn.
Great UB, and I personally think Creative is underrated. Never built the UU though, I tend to neglect my navy until Destroyers.

How are the Dutch ovens?

How are the Dutch ovens?

Hot :mischief:

How are the Dutch ovens?

Ha ha! Immuture, but I laughed :p

How are the Dutch ovens?

+24 :yuck: for 24 turns.

Ha ha! Immuture, but I laughed :p

I dont get it

I dont get it

It's either http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_oven .. or http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=dutch+oven :cool:

I found that Sid's Sushi Co. is a corporation made for the Dutch. You usually have tons of sea resources, building it in your slow growing or more production inland cities can seriously boost some of your cities.

I wouldn't say it's overpowered.
Emmmmmm no its exactly that: OVERPOWERED - and I played as Dutch.
Tell me another UB thats as powerful as the dike?

Emmmmmm no its exactly that: OVERPOWERED - and I played as Dutch.
Tell me another UB thats as powerful as the dike?

Rathaus? The Portuguese UB looks very nice as well.

I guess the problem with Dikes is that in maps with few coastal cities they're relatively useless while in archipelago maps they're extremely good. I don't think they're necessarily overpowered on a continents map, but they do seem unbeliavable in maps with lots of islands.

Emmmmmm no its exactly that: OVERPOWERED - and I played as Dutch.
Tell me another UB thats as powerful as the dike?

The Terrace, (the new) Ger, Ikhanda and Rathaus and a number of others are equally brilliant.
The Dike is balanced because it comes relatively late and because the Dutch have a pretty situational UU that is not a land unit.

The Terrace,
No
Ger
No

Ikhanda
No

Rathaus
No


Getting 5-12 extra :hammers: is not the same as 1:food: or paying a little less maintenance (once the corporation bug is fixed).

Any others you can think of the would be even close to the dike?

Getting 5-12 extra :hammers: is not the same as 1:food: or paying a little less maintenance (once the corporation bug is fixed).

Any others you can think of the would be even close to the dike?

How about getting 5-12 extra :commerce: (Portugal)?

No

You are not a man of many words are you? :lol:

Getting 5-12 extra :hammers: is not the same as 1:food: or paying a little less maintenance (once the corporation bug is fixed).

Any others you can think of the would be even close to the dike?

I don't agree. I think playing much less maintenance throughout the whole game is as strong or even strong than building Dikes later. I also think the other I named are real strong. As is the new Portuguese UB.

That said, I never claimed that the Dike wasn't great, but I also argumented that it greatness is compensated by a relatively bad UU. While the Zulu's, Inca's and HRE have both a brilliant UU and a UB.

The maintenance one I would agree with you now, but only because currently inflation destroys the concept of corporation and with the courthouse UB you can effectively halve the cost.
Once that is fixed, dike would REALLY stand out.

Also the Portugese UB proved this perfectly it gives +1:commerce:

and 1:commerce: is one third of 1:hammers:

The one thing that I would have to say is that the Dutch leader has a not so powerful trait: Creative: +2:culture: won't mean much at all later in the game, and even that the start its nowhere near as good as +2:) which is always useful.

So as a complete package it can be argued that dutch may be somewhat balanced (although depending on the map type I would still say it can be overly powerful)

Later in the game you could rationalize that: "well I get +3:hammers: in my cities (on average) whilst you get +2:) and your military upgrades cost less [for charismatic]. But if you told me that I could have any 2 traits and combine it with the dike and also their UU (or even worst any UU like the prat) then I would not even question myself in thinking that its overpowered.

I look at it in terms of the whole package, so whilst some civs have a strong UU(Romans), and others have a strong UB(Dutch) and some have strong traits(German, American, India) and finally others who have a more balanced mix of trait/UU/UB then in the end they are all pretty well balanced (not perfect but pretty well)

The Dike is very strong, but it also depends alot on the map and it needs to compensate for the navy UU. To

I'm glad we sort of agree that the Dutch are overall, considering every aspect, balanced.

I do admit that the Dike is very probably one of, or maybe, even the best UB in the game. In the end the Dike is an improved Moai Statues that costs 70 :hammers: less, effects much more tiles and can be build in pretty much every city. That's huge!

Emmmmmm no its exactly that: OVERPOWERED - and I played as Dutch.
Tell me another UB thats as powerful as the dike?

The early ones who gives advantages throughout the game. Rathaus allows you to expand endlessly, you can cover the map in cities and will be able to afford it by trade routs alone, for example. Same thing with ikhanda, it's no coincidence that domination victories in warlords were so easy to accomplish with the Zulu. If dike was earlier than railroad it would be game breakingly sick, at the time it is just very strong IMO.

The dike actually comes with steam power, not with railroad. Makes it come a lot sooner. Also, I've found that the Dutch AI is always one of the biggest tech leaders, and is up there with Mansa.

The dike actually comes with steam power, not with railroad. Makes it come a lot sooner. Also, I've found that the Dutch AI is always one of the biggest tech leaders, and is up there with Mansa.

The fact that the Dutch AI is a tech leader could be because his character was set like that and because he is financial though.

How about getting 5-12 extra :commerce: (Portugal)?

yes, the Portuguese UB is nice, but the Dutch already get that bonus via their trait. And it's available since the start of the game ;)