Anyone else found this?

In warlords they were good at wiping out axeman/swordsman and that was pretty much it, what with the -10% against cities.

Now they are actually useful now that ability has gone.

I've been thinking about using them instead of swordsman early on against archers. Think about it...

Swordsman +10% attacking cities

Horse Archer Immune to First Strikes
20% withdrawl chance
Flank attack vs catapult and trebuchet
+100% vs trebuchet and catapult

Now Stables give 2 exp, so you could use that on one promotion, say Combat I, so, when you attacked an enemy city, you would have the same odds as you would with an unpromoted swordsman, which isn't bad.

Or another chance might be to go along the flanking line, with stables and barracks you could get flanking I and II, combined with the bonus they naturally get that'd give a fifty percent withdrawl chance.

AND a horse archer can get to an enemy city in HALF the time, which would be fantastic if your playing on normal/quick, your enemy might not have built more defenders.

Thoughts?

(P.S. with the new art styles Horse Archers actually look ok now).

In the past I rarely build horse units, but in BTS I certainly experienced their quality has been improved.

Now Stables give 2 exp, so you could use that on one promotion, say Combat I, so, when you attacked an enemy city, you would have the same odds as you would with an unpromoted swordsman, which isn't bad.

Of course, they can't get City Raider.

The main problem with Horse Archers always was that Horseback Riding is too expensive to research early on. I think this hasn't changed.

Spears :(

Cheap and easy :p I suppose every single early unit has a counter, but Spears are probably the most effective.

Of course, they can't get City Raider.

Well that is unfortunately true, however with stables and barracks from one city a Swordsman can roll out with:
+30% versus cities

whereas a horse archer courtesy of combat I and II, can have:
+20% versus everything

and a horse archer has a 20% withdrawl chance, which goes quite a way to make up the 10% city attack gap, not to mention the fact they can arrive in half the time...

I have noticed this too. Especially improved is the Numidian Cav for the Carthaginians. These bad boys tear up axes, and aren't even that shabby against spears, combined with thier free flanking promotion makes them just sweet for early rushes.

Spears :(

Cheap and easy :p I suppose every single early unit has a counter, but Spears are probably the most effective.

With combat I and Shock you can have 35% against a melee unit, which gives a horse archer strength 8.1 against a spearmen, whereas a normal unpromoted spearmen has strength 8.0 versus a horse archer. PLUS if you are attacking the spearmen you have a 20% withdrawl chance....

In one of my games, I used Horse Archers to ride around taking out the Barbs hanging around the outside of the Great Wall. Worked quite well.

Horse Archers are brilliant on multiplayer, because you can blitz your oppenant who normally only have axes and they don't have enough time to get enough spears to counter.

Several times i have caught people out with this tactic

The main problem with Horse Archers always was that Horseback Riding is too expensive to research early on. I think this hasn't changed.

Hear hear!

It's quite hard to get a really good horse rush going purely because you'll either have to spend 20+ turns (standard speed) researching it over all the other useful early techs, or you get a small window of opportunity in which you might be able to take down a few cities before Longbowmen start shooting back and the opponent spams spearmen to counter you.

Not to mention the fact that horses aren't always in abundance, whilst bows and hills are.

Nor that a fortified, strength 1 spearman is still harder and cheaper than the upgraded horse mentioned previously. Add in the cultural bonus and walls or forts (on your iron) and you have quite fearsome horsey killers.

Hear hear!

It's quite hard to get a really good horse rush going purely because you'll either have to spend 20+ turns (standard speed) researching it over all the other useful early techs, or you get a small window of opportunity in which you might be able to take down a few cities before Longbowmen start shooting back and the opponent spams spearmen to counter you.

Not to mention the fact that horses aren't always in abundance, whilst bows and hills are.

Nor that a fortified, strength 1 spearman is still harder and cheaper than the upgraded horse mentioned previously. Add in the cultural bonus and walls or forts (on your iron) and you have quite fearsome horsey killers.

I'll probably mod BTS to make HBR about 50-60% the cost it is now (just as I did in Warlords). I think this makes for a much more interesting early game, unit-wise. I've considered making HBR a prereq for Iron Working, as well.

I generally trade for Horseback Riding. That way I can get more useful early techs, and get Riding if it'll be useful. I usually go for Alphabet early anyway.

Horse Archer Immune to First Strikes
20% withdrawl chance
Flank attack vs catapult and trebuchet
+100% vs trebuchet and catapult

Attack bonus against Catapults and Trebuchets is +50%, not +100%.

Attack bonus against Catapults and Trebuchets is +50%, not +100%.

woops, I'll alter...

I know what you mean about horse riding being a very expensive tech, I usually don't get it till later, although I'm not sure how early you could get it if you beelined....

Horse Archers are all about Flanking now. I can't believe how powerful the flanking promotions actually are (and I can't believe I never noticed). I always take horse archers on my attacks lately because if you get a Barracks+Stables, you get a nice +50% withdrawl and immunity to first strikes. You send the horses in and there's a great chance you're going to damage the main city defender significantly (usually a longbow... against archers, they'll probably win).

The Flanking promotion also helps with damaging siege ability, so that's an added bonus.

"You send the horses in and there's a great chance you're going to damage the main city defender significantly"

WHen you do damage and then retreat, is it true that the defender gets no experience since they didn't kill your unit? I am not sure if this is true, but if it is, chalk that up as another advantage.

horse archers are now good, i agree, and num. cav are sensational imo with the free promotion!!!

you don't have to beeline it per se, just don't delay it unnecessarily. when you are getting IW and construction, make sure to get HBR as well to form part of your classical army.

Question:

I know that a horse does not cause flanking damage to seige weapons if it loses, but how about if it withdraws?

Question:

I know that a horse does not cause flanking damage to seige weapons if it loses, but how about if it withdraws?

It will cause the damage if it withdraws.

The problem with withdrawal is that it causes you to get War Weariness.

Other than that withdrawal owns. Especially in Fall from heaven where catapults have 80% Withdrawal and you can make horse archers with 85% withdrawal :P (95% as the hippus)

Thanks Simplicity2!

The problem with withdrawal is that it causes you to get War Weariness.

Huh? It does? How does that work?

ANY combat action in foreign territory causes war weariness

ANY combat action in foreign territory causes war weariness

In my experience only losses in foreign territory does. (And withdrawals are currently counted as a loss for ww)

No ANY combat (wins more than losses actually), including taking/razing a city. (he biggest cause of WW is a massive conquest)

Yes, but the fact of the matter is: unless you are seriously out-teching your opponent, that first defender *is* going to kill your first attackers anyways. You will not beat a city defender archer in a city on a hill with anything short of macemen or a few dead men. So, if you're going to take such a city, you can either:

A) Start your attack with a swordman. And lose him, but damage the archer(swordmen can get city raider, so this is a benefit to this approach).

B) Start your attack with a horse archer, which will at least survive half the time and damage the archer.

Both approaches will give you war weariness.

No ANY combat (wins more than losses actually), including taking/razing a city. (he biggest cause of WW is a massive conquest)

Maybe. But I've gone through whole wars without war weariness. And I always notice that I don't get any war weariness till I start dying.

And yes, Horse Archers are better softeners since it's nice when they survive.

Yes, but the fact of the matter is: unless you are seriously out-teching your opponent, that first defender *is* going to kill your first attackers anyways. You will not beat a city defender archer in a city on a hill with anything short of macemen or a few dead men. So, if you're going to take such a city, you can either:

A) Start your attack with a swordman. And lose him, but damage the archer(swordmen can get city raider, so this is a benefit to this approach).

B) Start your attack with a horse archer, which will at least survive half the time and damage the archer.

Both approaches will give you war weariness.

Isn't the best thing to start the attack with both the sword and horse archer selected? For that matter, barracks + stables can give the HA Combat 1 + Cover if you know you're going against archers.

Isn't the best thing to start the attack with both the sword and horse archer selected? For that matter, barracks + stables can give the HA Combat 1 + Cover if you know you're going against archers.

It depends really. If the odds of winning the combat are low, then don't *try* to win. You should try to survive but weaken the defender for the next attacker. archer = 3 str + 25% city + 25% hill + 20% city defense + ?% culture/walls - 35% (combat1+cover) = First attacker could very well lose. It's better if the loss doesn't really matter.

Mounted units can't get Cover.

Mounted units can't get Cover.

I was wondering about that... But a horseman with flanking 2 can be superior to a swordsman with combat 1+cover or city raider 1+2 in some situations too.

Yeah flanking is definitely the way to go with horse archers. Especially with the Keshik as that grants them Immunity to First Strikes which it starts without.

flanking ftw. give 1/2 of them flanking and 1/2 combat promos and away you go.

Just looked at the Keshik, it now starts with one first strike chance.

So if you go down the flanking route, you will have immunity to first strikes, fifty percent withdrawl chance, one first strike yourself and faster movement.

Shame normal style horse archers don't get a chance at frist strikes either.

Just looked at the Keshik, it now starts with one first strike chance.

So if you go down the flanking route, you will have immunity to first strikes, fifty percent withdrawl chance, one first strike yourself and faster movement.

Shame normal style horse archers don't get a chance at frist strikes either.

It starts with one first strike, not one first strike chance. And this isn't new, it has had same specs except withdrawal rate, Trebuchet attack bonus (there weren't Trebuchets in Vanilla) and flank attack since Vanilla 1.00.