GOTM 69 Final Spoiler

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So, how long did it take for your Russians to win this one? (Or did they?) Did you need the modern era to finish it, or was this game done earlier?

This was my second gotm (my first was cotm38). I have some experience with emperor so I choosed the open-class.

The start was not very good. I built a lot of granaries, because I could not spot out a proper settler factory. To the west my expansion was limited by a ring of mountains and the arabs. To the southeast it was difficult to expand, too. My farest city to the east was near to the silks. I didn’t want to expand farther to the east, cause I hate to settle in jungles and these cities would have been max corrupt. Moreover i had no idea how to protect these cities against the germans, so i left the free tiles unsettled.

After this early expansion phase i had no idea which strategy I should choose. I was very far behind in tech and my swordsman army would have been no match for the other civs, they all have been in the middle ages, and I was a lot of techs away from it. So i run on cash earning and did a lot of trades. After that I wanted to free the world from the germans, with a knight army. By claiming the german territory with knight, which I was producing right now, I should be able to protect my empire easily, due to the big lake in the east of the pangea map. While i was developing my plan, the arabs declared war on me and i choosed to change my strategy. I captured the arab cities to my west and the very weak japanese too, because of the sources of gems in their territory. Luckily I got a MGL which was used to build the FP left to the big lake.
After that i traded me to military tradition to get rid of the germans. It was a good strategy, because after accomplishing that I would have only to defend to the west (arabs, ottomans and egyptians). Then the stupid Egyptians declared war on me. I was very annoyed because it crossed my plans, but than I realised that I had a 18-turn ongoing 60gpt-agreement with them. How stupid the AI can be? I used the extra money to bring the strong ottomans in the game with a military alliance vs the Egyptians. Have fun with the Sipahi… lol. To the west I was defending against the Egypt, whose attack was very weak, due to the attacking ottomans. To the south I was fighting the germans with my Cossacks (they didn’t have horses and were very weak because of their war against the Egyptians). A golden ages came along, after I switched from monarchy to republic, which was my government for the entire game. I took the german cities and the Egyptian cities too in the german territory. It was a very bloody and dangerous war for me, but at the end i accomplished my goal. Now the whole eastern and middle pangea was mine. The german territory was dedicated for ics-cities, producing first workers and then wealth and giving me larger unit support. There was no other need for them because all had max corruption.

My fear was that the other civs were in the industrial age right now, but fortunately they weren’t. I traded some techs and was giving a lot of money to research, so I could be one of the first in the industrial age and profit from my extra tech. The ottomans and their sipahies destroyed the Egyptians, who have been the most powerful civ at once. Now the only remaining civs were me and the ottomans, and the two-city-arabs of course.

After entering the industrial age i RR the west-east axis first and later my whole territory. I developed my whole empire with my large stack of workers (there has been a lot of jungles in the near of my FP), who were built in the former ics german territoriy. This took me a long time, but it deserved well. I could built ToE and US, and I was able to get soon to motorized transportation. The ottomans were far behind in tech now, thanks to ToE. I made a strong defense line to my western border, by building civil defense and radio towers in the border cities and fortresses on the near mountains. At this point I had 61 Infantry, 28 Artillery, 35 Tanks and 21 Cossacks. The Military Advisor said, that my Army was weak compared to the ottomans. Then I declared war on them. They came with two Sipahi-Armies (I've never seen AI-Armies before), 30 Sipahi and 30 Infantry (estimated). After two/three turns I destroyed all of them, and didn’t lost even one single unit!!! Now the military advisor told me, that they were weak against me… lol.

The rest of the game was easy and gave me a conquest victory in 1788.
Civ-Score is 3979. I forgot the Jasons-score, but it was more than the Civ-Score.

I hope my english wasn't too offending for you.

Conquest in 870AD. I did it all with knights, as the AIs were weak for emperor IMHO. Thus no Golden Age (nearly).

Destructions: Arabs, Japan, Ottomans and (Egypt, Germany same turn).

Great Leaders (few) built Sun Tzu's, Leonardo's, army (for Heroic Epic), and Copernicus to trigger my Golden Age after I captured The Great Library. But that was only 4 turns before the end.

Well, the start was quite frustrating. I tried getting some granaries going and moving out to better land, but something just did not feel right. My scouts made it all the way around the whole place and met all our "friends" and once their trading back and forth got into full swing and left me behind I got upset and just quit. I KNOW, I SUCK. Oh well.

However, I wonder if I am not the only one. There was only one reply to the 1st Spoiler Thread, zero for the 2nd Spoiler and so far only two real replies to the final one. What is up with this GOTM? Anybody have any thoughts on this and if so should another thread be started? I hope this is not the beginning of the end for GOTMs for CIV 3 because I need them and the COTMs...I NEED THEM. Seriously, I have a 3 month old and they are my only escape.

CHEERS!

There was only one reply to the 1st Spoiler Thread, zero for the 2nd Spoiler and so far only two real replies to the final one. What is up with this GOTM?

These are the submissions so far:

AndySir 28 Jul, 07
archphoenix 17 Jul, 07
Chamnix 22 Jul, 07
donsig 18 Jul, 07
osi 23 Jul, 07
Più Freddo 18 Jul, 07
Schalke 04 26 Jul, 07
silversheep 28 Jul, 07
tao 30 Jul, 07
UB40 21 Jul, 07

It's summer, I guess. But where are the spoilers?

And where is COTM39?

I have a 9 month old girl, so I barely have time to play the GOTM's. Escpesially those higher level ones take sometimes too much time... (have to skip them).

Yeah, where is COTM 39? :rolleyes:

Domination Victory in 650 AD edit: open class

Seeing this is worth 10.000+ Jasons I should say the result is pretty good by my standards. But there is a lot of room for improvement, as I made terrible strategic decisions.

In retrospect I should have done it all with horsemen and without researching at all. Instead, I chose to research republic and go for cossacks. That plan was doomed to fail of course, since I piled up horseman while researching at snails speed. Just to avoid boredom and ridiculous unit upkeep I started conquering with horses and was – like tao - surprised how weak the AIs response was. So the Arabs fell in 110 bc, Japan in 50 ad, and even Germany in 310 ad. By the end of that last campaign I had even aquired my first and only GL, who constructed the FP in Baghdad in 330 ad. That helped a lot in increasing the science.
Having the Ottomans build Leo´s in 500 ad, a few turns before I would have, was a bit of a setback (I planned to upgrade some 70 horses to cossacks!), but I could trade for Astronomy and build Cope´s instead, which triggered my GA and hence made for a nice compensation. So when Military Tradition came in, I only upgraded a few units that took Leo´s and upgraded the rest afterwards. The Ottomans lasted only for 5 or 6 turns of war. With their destruction in 640 ad, domination was achieved.

I must say I liked the map, it was fun to play and an enjoyable comeback for me.

I chose to research republic and go for cossacks.

Don't say I didn't warn you!

A good performance I think. I settled cities at rcp 4, built the fp in one, and built a few more around this. All cities built barracks then horses continually. Destroyed Japan and Arabia. Entered GA by capturing colossus and building GL. Researched chivalry. With knights I destroyed Ottomons then Egyptians and finally left Germany with one city, surpassing the domination limit by almost 100 tiles.
Firaxis score 7690, Jason 9900.

Something interesting: I reloaded the game after submitting and tried destroying the final enemy and going over the domination limit in the same turn. Only the domination victory was acknowledged(perhaps the higher scoring victory condition for 890AD of the two).

I believe there is an order that the game checks to see if a particular victory condition is met. Domination would appear to be ahead of Conquest, in that case.

In earlier GOTM's some players, for fun, would set up a game such that they could win by multiple victory conditions on the same turn, and choose the victory they eventually got. Usually not the best result, but still fun to do.

Conquered Arabia, Japan, GErmany, Ottomans and had to take 2 cities off the Egyptians.

The arabs never left the game despite having no ciites. I traded world maps with them several times but it never revealed a city.

The arabs never left the game despite having no ciites. I traded world maps with them several times but it never revealed a city.

They had a Settler somewhere, most likely on a Galley.

They had a Settler somewhere, most likely on a Galley.

That makes sense. I was starting to think something was corrupted because I had other weird things happening.
I captured Sun Tzus giving me barracks everywhere, and late in the game a group of barbs menaced one of my towns. It had no buildings (other than barracks) so I didnt care if they pillaged. The barracks was reported destroyed by the barbs, but it was still in the city view, and about every 2nd time the barbs attacked after that, the game crashed. My reload count wont look pretty!

and about every 2nd time the barbs attacked after that, the game crashed.

I got that problem, but it seems like it only happened when the barbs were warriors. It was a bit of a wind up- I played one turn 3 times but eventually defended the city.

I got that problem, but it seems like it only happened when the barbs were warriors. It was a bit of a wind up- I played one turn 3 times but eventually defended the city.

Indeed they were warriors.
It took me a while before I killed them as it was 'all hands on deck' against the germans & ottomans. Eventually I got sick of reloading the autosave, rushed a knight and finished them off.

I played a half-milked space race game but tripped over the domination limit in 1300, while discovering Satellites. I'm submitting to increase the fading number of entries. But the score was around 9.8k, base score in the 7ks, so maybe there is a chance of a cow. The trouble started when I raised a corrupt gems town (after Internet). I rebuilt it and lost track of which towns would grow.

Another only slightly less severe mistake was letting Egypt squander ToE on Printing Press and Refining (which I had). This was caused by the idiotic decision to build Hoover Dam even though I never build factories. The Egyptians cascaded on to ToE and I never got any use of the damn Dam. Somehow I was still living with the bug from one of the earliest CivIII versions where you benefitted from hydro plants even though you didn't have a factory. I am after all a long since retired civizen.

I agree that the emperor AI was incredibly weak. Eg there was no declaration of war except for the alliances I bought. Even wonders were hardly protected at all. Maybe the terrain was too poor so that they never left their expansion phase.

My scout noticed a Japanese Chariot escorting a Settler in jungle early in the game. Japan has been weird for ages in GOTMs (like not building spears), but never noticed this before.

I tried to do a research game but gave up as I couldn't get any good research pace.

So here's how I fared after the middle ages. (For the beginning see the first and second spoiler.) As I said the successful war against Japan allowed me to catch up with most of the AIs in terms of tech as well as power. Only Egypt was a bit ahead of everybody else. Luckily I managed to get an alliance with Egypt, which I wanted to use to take out the other rivals one by one, hoping to catch up with Egypt on the way and then be able to attack them successfully, too.

However at first this plan didn't work out well: Egypt started the first war very soon, before I was ready, and worst of all, that war was against Germany, with whom I did not have a common border! So before I was able to bring a sufficiently large army into German territory, the Egyptians had already finished them off! And they were very clever here: they began with taking the northern German cities, that way driving the border even further away from me. In the end I didn't get a single German town, while Egypt turned into a super-power :mad: . At this time I judged my chances of still winning that game as very dim, considering that I was still on Cossacks and Muskets, while Egypt began showing the first Mech Infantries...

However, the next campaign was very successful again: the Osmans attacked Arabia, I joined forces with them and Egypt followed suite because of the alliance. The very first Cossack attack gave me a well-timed Golden Age, and I was able to conquer the main part of Arabia (including 3 Wonders), while Osmania and Egypt got like one or two towns each.

By this time I was back in the game. I had two very productive cores (the location I had chosen for my FP was great), had changed to Democracy and was turning out a new tech every four rounds. The only drawbacks: Egypt was apparently researching at the same speed, so I wasn't able to close the gap, and I didn't have any coal anywhere within my borders, so I had to pay 50 gpt for coal to Egypt :sad:.

Just a few rounds after the Arabian war I decided to keep going and take on Osmania as well: they had coal and incense, which would be very handy to me. Unfortunately this time the Egyptians were better prepared (probably the troups, which had arrived too late on the Arabian scene, were now ready to go). So this time they got a large portion of the booty as well. I think it ended up like 10 Osmanian towns for me, 6 for them. That wasn't too important, as those cities were too far away to be productive for both of us. It was only a bit unlucky that they got the incense!

So now (~1750) the situation was as follows: the only contenders left were Egypt and me, with Egypt ocupying about two thirds of the land and me one third. My population must have been higher than 34%, otherwise they would already have reached domination. The alliance between Egypt and me was still active (!), and as long as they didn't call it off, I surely wasn't going to either! After all, 3 gpt was a low price to pay for the insurance of not suddenly being attacked by them! (The first Modern Armor already showed up among them, and me best defensive unit was still Infantry.)

At that point I thought I still had a chance of pulling that one of. I had won from similar positions already. So I formed the following plan: at the moment, attacking them would be suicide. Even a Cossack Army is no match for a Mech Inf, and their Modern Armors would make mincemeat of my Infantry. But the Tech Tree is about to reach its end soon, and after that they can't get any more advanced weapons... So I'll just research the 10 missing techs that I still need to get Modern Armor, too, then concentrate a while on building a large force (while they will probably put their resources into the modern wonders and spaceship parts...) and then show them that the human military strategy is still superior to theirs...:D I only hoped I would be quick enough before they finished the spaceship. It never occured to me that culture was critical, too, after all I had built those cheap libraries nearly everywhere.

This plan seemed to work out well at first. I researched the last remaining Industrial Age techs at a 4-turn rate, build more Universities and Banks to increase my tech output for the Modern Age and also piled up a decent amount of Armies that would hold my Modern Armors later on... I had already a good stack of Artillery and I also started building Rardar Towers and Civil Defenses along the border. After getting the necessary tech I also started building Mech Infs and a few Tanks for later upgrading. All the time I kept the alliance with them in order to prevent unpleasant surprises...

And then, when I was only one tech away from Modern Armor, they suddenly reached the 100k culture victory! Arrrgh :mad:

But I guess, at that point there was nothing I could do to prevent it, anyway. I simply commited too many serious mistakes early on. After thinking about this game (and after reading a few of the articles in the War Academy) I think I made the following strategic errors:

Expanding too fast so that the outer towns were undefended too long. Getting a town burned down by some wondering German archers really hurts
Didn't use any forestry operations. (Cracker's article on this was a revelation. Got to try this in my next game.)
I never use pop rushing. But I guess pop rushing for an early granary might pay off in the long run?
Spent too much time in the expansion phase. I guess on a small map instead of building all those granaries and settlers for a peaceful expansion I should rather have tried the "swordsman strategy" to convince one of the neighbors that I can take better care of his empire...
Spent too much time in Despotism! Should have gone faster for Monarchy and should have changed to it right after I got it. Going for a couple of Libraries and Marketplaces first doesn't pay off.


(Any comments are welcome! After all, I'm trying to learn something here...)

These errors then induced more follow-up errors like leaving Egypt's rise to power un-opposed and letting them run away.

The following also hampered my game: first there was no coal in my empire (even after I captured most of the Japanese, Arabian and Osman territory!) civ_steve: how can you give us such a map??
And next I put too high a value on Armies and on Artillery. In C3C they are really useful, and as I didn't play a Vanilla/PTW game for ages, I was too used to the way they work in C3C. But not having the extra movement point as well as the slow healing rate makes Armies not so important in PTW! And it appears to me that Artillery is much more effective in C3C as well, is this possible? It takes ages to reduce a simply Infantry in a town from 4/4 to 1/4. Most of the shots are misses, the others mainly reduce the population or destroy the precious improvements like marketplaces, graneries, aquaeducts... When I finally capture a town, there's nothing left in there! So I guess for the next GOTM I have to rethink my military strategy... (Unfortunately I will definitely not be able to finish COTM39 on time, so I will have to go for GOTM70 again.)

But playing my first GOTM was really fun! I finally got to playing and finishing a serious and long-drawn Civ3 game again (with a full-time job, a wife and a two year old daughter it's not easy to get an undisturbed afternoon once in a while...:) ) and the people on this forum are really nice!

Hope I'll get enough time to submit GOTM70 as well
and see you all again then! :wavey:

I finally got to playing and finishing a serious and long-drawn Civ3 game again (with a full-time job, a wife and a two year old daughter it's not easy to get an undisturbed afternoon once in a while...:) )

this is spooky... are you me?

Hi neilmeister,
I've already noticed quite a few other civfanatics, who have young children...!

Just consider the following quote from reedmaster in the COTM39 Pre-Game discussion:

Gonna give this COTM a try. Not sure if I have the time to complete a game in a month or not. I know that sounds pathetic but working full-time, married, 2-year old toddler, baby on the way, and finishing the basement just doesn't leave much time. If you don't see me post a finished game, just assume I'm hanging drywall.

That's exactly me, too!! (Except that meanwhile I've given up on the basement and just let the chaos and the unopened boxes from the last move rest there in peace... :lol: )

Can it be that Civilization is just no longer the game of todays teenies and the only Civ3 fans left are the ones who played it during their student days and have now grown up? :confused:

And I guess, those kiddies that still do play Civilization, will rather be found in the Civ4 forums...!

Wow, Lanzelot, sounds like you had a very exciting game even if it didn’t have a happy ending :sad:. Some comments on your game:

I think I made the following strategic errors:
Expanding too fast so that the outer towns were undefended too long. Getting a town burned down by some wondering German archers really hurts

I don’t think there is any such thing as expanding too fast. I think you mentioned in your first spoiler that you refused to give Germany tribute – on Emperor +, you usually have to accede to demands early since they start with too many units. A few units is obviously a good idea, but usually you can either avoid war by giving in to demands or get peace before too much damage is done, but you can never make up for delaying expansion.

Didn't use any forestry operations. (Cracker's article on this was a revelation. Got to try this in my next game.)

Forestry operations are a lot better in Conquests than PTW because of the dramatically reduced time to chop. 10 worker turns is a lot to give up very early in the game, but it sometimes is worthwhile.

I never use pop rushing. But I guess pop rushing for an early granary might pay off in the long run?

Of course the answer to this is “it depends”. It is possible, but usually I find it is better not to pop rush in your core towns because you need them to grow, and the unhappiness forces you to increase luxury spending. However, I do often pop rush something like a galley every 10 turns in a corrupt town that I’m planning on keeping at size 1 for a while anyway, for example.

Spent too much time in the expansion phase. I guess on a small map instead of building all those granaries and settlers for a peaceful expansion I should rather have tried the "swordsman strategy" to convince one of the neighbors that I can take better care of his empire...

There’s certainly nothing wrong with expanding via the sword, but it depends on what you mean by “all those granaries”. Typically 1-2 granaries in your highest food cities are sufficient. Settlers and workers are always good though.

Spent too much time in Despotism! Should have gone faster for Monarchy and should have changed to it right after I got it. Going for a couple of Libraries and Marketplaces first doesn't pay off.

True that getting out of Despotism ASAP is almost always better than waiting. Typically, IMO Republic is better than Monarchy also (although you can find plenty of threads debating that). Finally, I noted you changed to Democracy later – researching Democracy and going through a second anarchy is almost never worthwhile (if you’re not religious). Pick Republic or Monarchy and stick with it.

And next I put too high a value on Armies and on Artillery. In C3C they are really useful, and as I didn't play a Vanilla/PTW game for ages, I was too used to the way they work in C3C. But not having the extra movement point as well as the slow healing rate makes Armies not so important in PTW! And it appears to me that Artillery is much more effective in C3C as well, is this possible? It takes ages to reduce a simply Infantry in a town from 4/4 to 1/4. Most of the shots are misses, the others mainly reduce the population or destroy the precious improvements like marketplaces, graneries, aquaeducts

Indeed, armies are not much use in PTW – I almost never build them. Great Leaders are much better used to rush Wonders (although if you were behind in tech, then that probably wasn’t an option :().

Artillery was changed between PTW and C3C. I think its “power” is the same, but in C3C it always targets units over improvements which makes it much more useful.

(Any comments are welcome! After all, I'm trying to learn something here...)

One other item I noted in your spoilers – you mentioned a couple times you were building Banks and Universities. You should almost never build both. Universities only help when your science slider is high, and Banks only help when your science slider is low so one of them is always useless. Either build Universities and not Banks and research like mad, or build Banks and not Universities and don’t bother with research – get your techs via pointy stick, purchasing, or stealing with all the cash you accumulate.

Good luck next month :)!

Can it be that Civilization is just no longer the game of todays teenies and the only Civ3 fans left are the ones who played it during their student days and have now grown up? :confused:

And I guess, those kiddies that still do play Civilization, will rather be found in the Civ4 forums...!

Hey I'm still a student. I'm 17. I probably should be getting out more or studying harder instead of civving though:p.

I tried civ 4 but it's hard to adjust and I'm just getting half decent at civ 3, so I'm still playing this one.

It's great that the rest of you manage to play despite all of your other commitments:crazyeye:.

Can it be that Civilization is just no longer the game of todays teenies and the only Civ3 fans left are the ones who played it during their student days and have now grown up? :confused:



I tried civ 4 but it's hard to adjust and I'm just getting half decent at civ 3, so I'm still playing this one.


I think these two comments probably sum up people playing civ3. They mostly started at civ1, 2 or 3 and did not like the way the look/feel changed so dramatically at civ4. I remember playing civ 1 until silly hours in the morning when I was 16. Like megistatos I tried civ4 once and I just hated it.:mad:

I don't want to risk that this turns into another Civ3 vs Civ4 debate, so here just one comment. It was the same with me: my brother-in-law bought Civ4 when it came out and I borrowed it and tried like two or three games and then got bored... Most of all I didn't like the way they changed some of the key features, like railroad, artillery, army groups, the government concept, some of the World Wonders and buildings. The new corruption concept is nice, though... And the idea of having different religions is interesting, too. But I hate it when the AI refuses to trade with me just because we have a different religion!

megistatos: good to have you with us! That makes me feel younger already... ;) And don't worry: like neilmeister I've been playing Civ1 for nights on end in 92-94 and still got my diploma... :old:
After that I had quit, though, and only got back to playing a couple of years ago, when my little brother-in-law had Conquests on his PC. I told him, I had already played this a decade ago. And at my next birthday he bought it for me as a present; since then I'm hooked again...

Ok, back to topic: A big :thanx: to Chamnix! I'll certainly try your tips in my next games! Here are a few more comments from my side:

You were asking about whether I had the chance to use a MGL for a World Wonder. In fact I did. But in this game WWs had simply been completely out of my attention. In some earlier games I had made bad experiences with being beating by one of the AIs by just two/three rounds and loosing 200-300 shields for nothing... Therefore I thought, ok, in a serious game like GOTM I just can't afford that risk. So I didn't compete for any WWs and intended to let the AI build them and then capture them. However that plan didn't work out: I did manage to get 5-6 of them, but all were quite useless: the Lighthouse (no ships needed in this game!), the Great Wall, Shakespeare's Theater in a totally corrupt town at the other end of the world, etc... I got three MGL in that game and used all of them for Armies. So that was probably quite stupid... Should have build at least two useful Wonders with them. So I guess neglecting the World Wonders was another big mistake of mine in this game.
Next I will adjust my Artillery tactics: I will keep a smaller size of them, which saves money, and then only use them defensively or for eliminating units standing around in the open countryside. Attacking towns really doesn't pay off: I had very low casulties, that's true, but by the time I captured them most towns had been reduced to size 1 and didn't have any buildings left.
What I didn't understand was your advice to not build both, Banks and Universities! In all of my games so far I have made the experience that I couldn't afford Libraries without Marketplaces (and Universities without Banks). And a similar "dualism" seems to exist between Labs and Stockmarkets. Let me explain what I mean: let's assume I want to achieve the optimum tech output. If I would build only a couple of Granaries, Temples, Aquaeducts and then lots of Libraries (in all cities with more than 6 beakers per round), then my expenses are so high that I can move the science slider to at most 20%. This means the beaker output in most cities gets so low, that the Libraries have almost no effect. (So they basically only waste money.) But if I add Marketplaces to those productive towns, it has two benefits: first it increases happiness, so I can set my luxury slider down to 0%, which means I can increase the tech slider by 10-20%. And secondly the extra cash pays for all my expenses, so I can increase the tech slider by another 20%. Now the tech slider is at 50-60% and my Libraries are really effective! Later in the game, when University and Banks are available, I usally have a similar effect: without Banks I'm never able to set the tech slider high enough for the Universities to be effective! So even if it may sound paradoxical: I use Banks (and StockMarkets) to increase my science output! Without them I've never been able to achieve a science rate of "4 turns per tech". Perhaps you should try this in one of your games and see how you fare with it? I always thought it was a good strategy.
Yep, keeping despotism for so long was a bad mistake. As to whether Republic or Monarchism is better, I think it depends. If there are close neighbours and lots of wars, Monarchy is probably better, because you can afford a larger military force and also save money by using "military police". However if there's a chance for a long period of peaceful development, then Republic is better because of the increased income. However, I always like Democracy best because compared to Monarchism it approximately doubles your income, and compared to Republic it's still 50% more. Combined with the University+Bank strategy this really rocks! In some of my more successful games I was able to keep up a 4 turn per tech rate and still get like 600-700 gpt, which could be used for investment in city improvements or for unit upgrade... So perhaps the best strategy is: get out of Despotism ASAP, then use Monarchy/Republic as a transitional phase and move to Democracy quickly. I think changing the government early on doesn't do much harm to your empire. In the current game I went to Monarchy too late and this had the side effect that my Democracy came to late, too. But the benefits of Democracy really pay off in the later stages of the game, when you have a big empire! The income is simply incredible, and don't forget about the fact that Democracy significantly reduces corruption and increases the Worker effectiveness!
Finally I have a question about culture. Obviously a big mistake of mine in the current game was to neglect culture. But I still don't quite understand it, because I had lots of Libraries (for a scientific nation like Russia they are so cheap...!) In some other threads I read about the "1000 year effect for Temples" and that one or two early Temples help with not falling too far behind in culture. What did they mean by this? How exactly does this work?


Ok, thanks again to all and have fun starting GOTM70!
Lanzelot

Finally I have a question about culture. Obviously a big mistake of mine in the current game was to neglect culture. But I still don't quite understand it, because I had lots of Libraries (for a scientific nation like Russia they are so cheap...!) In some other threads I read about the "1000 year effect for Temples" and that one or two early Temples help with not falling too far behind in culture. What did they mean by this? How exactly does this work?


1000 years after any building or wonder is built, it's culture output doubles. Generally temples are the only culture builings around early on, and if you can get them quickly, their culture doubles within a short space of time(I think the first 1000 years takes only 20 turns, but this steadily increases). Two temples plus the palace will eventually give 10 culture per turn, which should be enough to keep level in culture or even take a lead(depending on difficulty). I would guess that Egypt built a few early temples and continued to produce culture(Egypt beat me in a GOTM this way once), and your libraries came too late to make much difference.

60 shields can be quite a lot early on though, but it's definitely a good idea for religious civs.

Note that the culture only doubles once for each building.

Thanks a lot, megistatos!

Spain happens to be religious, so I'll certainly try this out in GOTM70... :)
Good that I didn't have time to start it, yet. (That has been postponed until the weekend.)

I think, inbetween two settlers we always need to build something else in order to let the town grow. Perhaps that's the best occasion for getting in an occasional Temple!?

Up to now I did not build early Temples, because early on I usually don't have a problem with happiness. So looks like I need to adjust in this regard as well...

Lanzelot

What I didn't understand was your advice to not build both, Banks and Universities! In all of my games so far I have made the experience that I couldn't afford Libraries without Marketplaces (and Universities without Banks). And a similar "dualism" seems to exist between Labs and Stockmarkets. Let me explain what I mean: let's assume I want to achieve the optimum tech output. If I would build only a couple of Granaries, Temples, Aquaeducts and then lots of Libraries (in all cities with more than 6 beakers per round), then my expenses are so high that I can move the science slider to at most 20%.

To me, that sounds like you must be paying way too much in unit support costs (and maintenance costs for Temples :)), or you don't have enough roads producing income. I don't know for certain without looking at a game, but I can't remember having to turn science down that low to stay solvent. Where is all your money going?

But if I add Marketplaces to those productive towns, it has two benefits: first it increases happiness, so I can set my luxury slider down to 0%, which means I can increase the tech slider by 10-20%. And secondly the extra cash pays for all my expenses, so I can increase the tech slider by another 20%. Now the tech slider is at 50-60% and my Libraries are really effective!

Marketplaces are a special exception - I usually build them also even when I am going for a science game because of the extra happiness.

Later in the game, when University and Banks are available, I usally have a similar effect: without Banks I'm never able to set the tech slider high enough for the Universities to be effective! So even if it may sound paradoxical: I use Banks (and StockMarkets) to increase my science output! Without them I've never been able to achieve a science rate of "4 turns per tech". Perhaps you should try this in one of your games and see how you fare with it? I always thought it was a good strategy.

Interesting - I've never been able to achieve 4 turn research unless my science slider was cranked up to at least 80-90% (often 100%), unless it is late enough in the game to have tons of scientist farms in which case you can pretty much win however you choose.

My typical approach is to have the AI finance my science. I'll keep the science slider at close to 100% and run a deficit - when I discover a tech, I'll sell it for all the cash in the world (and sometimes gpt) to finance deficit research on my next tech.

I understand the concept of building Banks to increase your science percentage to increase your science, but I'm surprised you can reach 4-turn research without cranking your science slider so high that your banks are useless.

However, I always like Democracy best because compared to Monarchism it approximately doubles your income, and compared to Republic it's still 50% more. Combined with the University+Bank strategy this really rocks! In some of my more successful games I was able to keep up a 4 turn per tech rate and still get like 600-700 gpt, which could be used for investment in city improvements or for unit upgrade... So perhaps the best strategy is: get out of Despotism ASAP, then use Monarchy/Republic as a transitional phase and move to Democracy quickly. I think changing the government early on doesn't do much harm to your empire. In the current game I went to Monarchy too late and this had the side effect that my Democracy came to late, too. But the benefits of Democracy really pay off in the later stages of the game, when you have a big empire! The income is simply incredible, and don't forget about the fact that Democracy significantly reduces corruption and increases the Worker effectiveness!

I admit it has been quite a while since I used Democracy, but I don't recall the income increasing by 50% over Republic. They both have the same trade bonus, Democracy has lower corruption, and they have different unit support (sometimes one will cost more, sometimes the other will - I usually find my unit costs are lower under Republic than they would be under Democracy).

The reduced corruption and increased worker speed are definite perks, the main problem is the second period of anarchy. By the time you reach Democracy, you are probably looking at 7+ turns of anarchy. When you consider all the shields and gold (and even food because the Despotism penalty returns for anarchy, and you often have to hire specialists since the luxury slider doesn't work) you lose during those 7 turns, even though Democracy may increase your output, it takes an awfully long time before you reach the "break-even" point in most games.

Finally I have a question about culture. Obviously a big mistake of mine in the current game was to neglect culture. But I still don't quite understand it, because I had lots of Libraries (for a scientific nation like Russia they are so cheap...!) In some other threads I read about the "1000 year effect for Temples" and that one or two early Temples help with not falling too far behind in culture. What did they mean by this? How exactly does this work?

Megistatos is absolutely correct about the doubling effect, but it still doesn't usually make it productive to build early temples. If you need to build something while waiting for your city to grow, a warrior for MP/barb fighting/exploration/making contacts, or a galley (if possible) for exploration/making contacts, or even a granary in a town that wouldn't normally need one are better choices than a temple.

It was unfortunate that you lost this game via culture, but other builds help your empire much more in the early stages, and early temples will not generally improve your game.

sometimes one will cost more, sometimes the other will - I usually find my unit costs are lower under Republic than they would be under Democracy
Simply, you would need to have over double the allowed number of Republican units for Democracy to have lower upkeep. This certainly can happen, but not I think in the situations in which you would have the option of switching to Democracy...
(a) when you recently switched to Republic and have a bunch of workers scurrying around, some explorers, a small standing army for barb control and invasion watch, and most or all of your towns are still < pop 6. But of course Democracy is not available at that time.
(b) late in a military game, when you have used disconnect/reconnect/upgrade to create far more offensive units than you could ever possibly need. :D But in that case, even if someone did research as far as Democracy, you wouldn't want to switch to it because it is so weak in the face of military casualties.

In some other threads I read about the "1000 year effect for Temples" and that one or two early Temples help with not falling too far behind in culture. What did they mean by this? How exactly does this work?
Ah, you noticed that over in the strat / general discussion forums, any thread that goes over one page in length inevitably degenerates into an argument over whether temples are worth building? ;)
Over there, they just talk about these things, but in the lands of GOTM and HOF, we actually have to sail our theories on the treacherous seas of competition!

Hi all,
I guess I have to clear up a terrible stupid glitch of mine...:wallbash:
For some reason I have been under the impression that Republic generates one extra commerce per square, while Democracy generates two extra commerce!! (I guess this explains to you, why I esteemed Democracy so high...) But you are right: this is not the case, neither in Vanilla nor in C3C!

Where did I get this idea from? Has it perhaps been that way in Civ2? Then that would mean I've been playing Civ3 for ~5 years without ever noticing that they changed the rules for Democracy :wallbash:
I rarely play Republic, my evolution is usually Despotism -> Monarchy -> Democracy. Perhaps that's the reason why I never noticed that Republic and Democracy are basically the same in terms of gross income...

Anyway, now the advice "go to Republic ASAP and stick with it for the rest of the game" makes more sense to me. The only significant advantage of Democracy may then be: if you get to it some time before Steam Power, you can build your railroad network very fast and this way boost your production!
That may still be an option worth considering.

To answer a few of Chamnix questions:
To me, that sounds like you must be paying way too much in unit support costs (and maintenance costs for Temples :)), or you don't have enough roads producing income. I don't know for certain without looking at a game, but I can't remember having to turn science down that low to stay solvent. Where is all your money going?
I can assure you that my first priority early on is to get roads on any square my citizens are working on... :) I also had only a small army and no Temples.
The only explanation I have: this was the effect of staying in Despotism too long and then using Monarchy instead of Republic?!

But once I got to Democracy, I was solvent again. Yes, I usually achieve a 4-turn science rate with my tech slider at 50-60%. And still have 100-200 gpt left for trading, rushing city improvements and upgrading. Even in my misplayed GOTM69 after the successful war against Japan, when I was able to catch up a bit and get my second core productive, I managed the 4-turns per tech for most of the Industrial Age. In the beginning at 40-50%, later on for the more expensive ones and for the first Modern Age techs at 60-70%. (At the end going 3 turns at 70% with a slight deficit and then in the 4th turn lowering the tech slider to 10 or 20%, which is still sufficient to finish that tech and gives me a 300-500 gold reserve that can be used to finance the 3 deficit turns of the next tech.) At the beginning of the Modern Age I had to lower the rate to 6-turns per tech, but I'm sure in the next couple of turns enough Research Labs would have been ready to get that up to 4 turns again. (I had already a decent number of Stock Exchanges and Commercial Docks in place.)

Lanzelot