View Full Version : The Ancient Mediterranean MOD (TAM)


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thamis
May 27, 2002, 07:39 AM
Download (http://www.moddb.com/mods/the-ancient-mediterranean-civ3/downloads)

Install:

Conquests
Install it into your CIV3\CONQUESTS\CONQUESTS folder. You will get errors if you do not install it into this exact folder!

Play the World
Install it into your CIV3\CIV3PTW\SCENARIOS folder. You will get errors if you do not install it into this exact folder!

Plain Vanilla Civilization 3
Install it into your CIV3\ANCIENT MEDITERRANEAN folder. You will get errors if you do not install it into this exact folder!
Mac users click here. (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=2314430&postcount=233)

Other Stuff:

Justus II has compiled all the data you need to understand the MOD in one Excel file (http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=77284), as well as in a website (http://joe-s.home.insightbb.com/ancient_med.htm).

Ankhenaton wrote (http://cdgroup.org/forums/tbs/civ3/viewtopic.php?p=63026#63026):
"To all of the newcomers to the mod: This mod is incredibly well-balanced as it is the sum of a collaborative effort by dozens of individuals giving their input as to recreating a very accurate simulation of Ancient World interaction amongst the various civilizations. This mod is far superior to the unbalanced main game and it ranks up there within the top five civ mods for uniqueness and playability. I love this mod so much that even though I bought the Conquests expansion I have yet to play it. In my opinion the civ franchise should concentrate more on the Ancient World aspects of the game than it does right now. But if you must have an Ancient to Modern game then play TETurkhan's mod/scenario that is almost as good as TAM."

http://www.creative-hu.de/public/elamitetaurus.gif Proto-Elamite Taurus says:
Check out the various sections in this forum for all the information on changes in the MOD. You can learn about the new civilizations (http://www.jan.vandercrabben.name/civ3/civilizations.html), about the ages and technologies (http://www.cdgroup.org/forums/tbs/civ3/viewtopic.php?t=53) of the Ancient Mediterranean world, as well as the CIV-specific abilities (http://www.cdgroup.org/forums/tbs/civ3/viewtopic.php?p=67352#67352), which is a complete novelty in any Civilization 3 MOD! I also recommend that you read a few tips and tricks (http://www.cdgroup.org/forums/tbs/civ3/viewforum.php?f=46) on how to deal with all this new stuff. We've also compiled some Historical information (http://www.cdgroup.org/forums/tbs/civ3/viewforum.php?f=26) for you. And if you have a comment or you found a bug, feel free to post (http://www.cdgroup.org/forums/tbs/civ3/index.php?h=1&pf=21) it.

thamis
May 27, 2002, 09:13 AM
I think you might need version 1.21f to open the map.

Iulius Caesar
May 27, 2002, 10:32 AM
There were an Iberian leader called Viriato, in Spanish, who was murdered by order of Caesar, because he was still fighting against Rome.
He was killed by one of his men, bribed by the romans (well, in fact, he was never paid, when he went to take his money Caesar said "Rome doesn´t pay traitors")
I think his name in Latin could have been Viriatus, I am not sure
I hope this will help you.

thamis
May 27, 2002, 11:06 AM
Thanks, I'll use the Spanish name... sounds more "Iberian".

With the update I fixed some major bugs, mainly concerning units. Now I have the following problem: I am in 610 BC and at the beginning of my turn it says "The Greeks are building The Hanging Gardens". When I klick the message away, the game exits.

Does anybody else have problems with "The Hanging Gardens"? When someone built "The Colossus" all was fine... :confused:

Ad Hominem
May 28, 2002, 12:04 AM
This sounds like a very promising mod, but it still needs tons of work done. Actually there is a (rather large) number of inacuracies and errors, but I am glad somebody has the time and devotion to develop a mod I'd play like crazy if completed.

If you need more accurate information on some of the civilizations, you might check out the Apolyton Civ3 civilizations forum, there is a huge pile of info.

Anyway, I am glad you could start this off and if I may help you with historical accuracy (that would mean to change a number of units, though, and also leaders, names etc.) and the relevant civilopedia entries, just let me know.

My free time is sparse but I can work on 2-3 civs to provide you with accurate data, valid city lists, fitting units (not the animations, though) and other stuff. Just let me know.

thamis
May 28, 2002, 10:57 AM
Yes! Give me all the knowledge and ideas you have! :king:

I did quite some research, but except for Troy I only had maps and chose cities (or sites) that were in the region. I have no idea who built the Iberian cities, for example, and the names are Latin anyway...

Otter
May 28, 2002, 11:13 AM
Hey
there was a Roman rebel who led the Iberians against Rome and won many battles before tasting defeat at the hands of Mettellus Pius and Pompey.
His name was Quintus Sertorius. there is a picture of him on page 592 of Fortune's Favorites by Colleen McCullough.
And have you considered the Arabs? Their rise came a little later but I do believe they were always there Otter

thamis
May 28, 2002, 11:19 AM
Thanks for the leader. Can you scan that picture? I don't have that book... :love:

The Arabs... well, of course they were always there, but where would you place them? Into the arabian desert? Good starting position... :crazyeye:

thamis
May 28, 2002, 11:24 AM
We now have two threads at the same time. If you have any ideas or questions, maybe look at the CivFanatics-thread first:

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=51402 ;)

Exsanguination
May 28, 2002, 11:55 AM
Originally posted by thamis
Thanks for the leader. Can you scan that picture? I don't have that book... :love:

The Arabs... well, of course they were always there, but where would you place them? Into the arabian desert? Good starting position... :crazyeye:

Once the scenario editor comes out, I will being working diligently on an Alex the Great scenario (I was supposed to start it a while ago as a mod but I chose to wait until a scenario editor came around). Of course - the Arabs would be a pinnacle to any such scenario/mod. What I will be doing is adding several bonus recources like cactus/oasis/etc to just that one desert to give the Arabs a chance.

Also, try the Cretans or the Cimmerians as a civilization. Keep up the good work! :goodjob:

Harlan
May 28, 2002, 06:16 PM
Hi,
Nice idea for a mod. What year exactly does it start? Depending on that, I have some thoughts regarding which civs to include.

Given that you have stuff as early as the Minoans and Troy, you shouldn't have the Carthaginians. Carthage was founded about 800 BC by the Phoenicians. It became independent when the Phoenecians were conquered around 600 BC. So have the Phoenicians instead, but make them a very strongly water based civ so they tend to expand that way, and settle in places like Cyprus and Carthage.

Arabs: a must have. Place them in the interior of Yemen. Read up about them. Back in the day, the Arabs were one of the richest countries in the world because they had the only incense in the world. They had big cities in that area, and built a large dam to keep them watered. Alexander was planning on conquering them when he died. (The Arabs had fallen down pretty hard by the time of Mohammed because the rise of Christianity greatly reduced the amount of incense used, and the fall of Rome crushed trading generally).

Hebrews. I know that part of the world is crowded, but how can you leave these guys out, with their historical importance? Have the crowded parts of the world start more technologically advanced, to balance out the crowding factor.

Dacians. Not a lot of people know about these guys. They inhabited the Romania area. That area had incredible mineral resources, so a civilization sprung up there to mine and trade with other areas, even in 2000 BC or earlier, while all the areas around remained much more primitive. The Romans finally conquered them around 100 AD (note this is the only place on the other side of the Danube the Romans held onto, because it was the only rich and urbanized place worth holding).

Lydians. Another ancient civ that gets completely forgotten, cos history is written by the winners, not the losers. They had a very important and thriving civ until the Persians conquered them around 600 BC. It is also widely thought that the Etruscans decended from them, so give them naval power with the ability to settle places like Italy. You can also merge Troy into them - Troy was just one town. There's a good theory that a Lydian city was actually the foundation of the Atlantis legend (read Peter James' book Ancient Mysteries), but its hard to know because so much about them has been forgotten.

Romans. Romans go back to 800 BC at the extreme earliest. They remained an unimportant town for at least 300 more years. How do you figure having them in, 1000s of years earlier?

Huns also come way too late, and can best be represented as part of the barbarians anyways.

Welsh? Why just them?? Howabout Celts for the British Isles, and Gauls for the mainland?

The Trojan Horse unit? Please! Too silly - unless you have the "work once ever in the world and then everyone gets wise to it" flag on :).

The med seemed to change a lot around 800 BC. For instance, that's when the Iberians start appearing, with the city of Tartessos. I think you should either start then and skip the Minoans but keep later stuff like Carthaginians and Romans, or start earlier and skip the Romans, as painful as that may be. Civ3 just isn't set up for late starts, at least not yet.

Also, if you start around 800 BC, you could have more than one Greek civ. The Greeks conquered so much of the map (most of the north coast of the Med, including the Black Sea rim), that if your civ follows history at all, they will be too powerful unless they are divided amongst themselves (as they always were). Even though they may only have 1 town most of the game, the Spartans are so different they could warrant a civ of their own, for instance. And make the Greeks extremely naval like the Phoenicians: of the hundreds if not thousands of Greek cities founded, virtualy all were within 100 miles of the sea. A wall of mountains to the north of Greece could force them to go naval to expand.

You should make the Worker unit only come later on, and have some civs start with that already, and some civs not. That way, civs like Sythians, Celts, etc remain undeveloped for a long time. Also, give the barbarians the highest setting, and have barbarians effectively control much of the world.

I also have a bunch of new wonder graphics, many of which you may find useful. I'll post a separate thread about that soon.

Ad Hominem
May 28, 2002, 11:54 PM
Harlan

I'd stick with the Minoans and the Romans, if this is going to be representative of the ancient med they are both too important to leave out.

But you have right as for the "more Greek civs". There should be at least two of them (Athens and Sparta, respectively or Athens and Syracusae, it was the great Greek power of the west and had a quite interesting history until it fell under Roman rule) and probably a third would add more value to this mod (Macedonian Greeks is the prime candidate, I guess).

As for the Arabs go... well, their significance and impact outside their territory didn't started before the prophet, so I think we could dismiss them easily. So the Hebrews - their relative significance is the Bible and they are not even comparable to the rest of the civs we are talking about.


thamis

I'll provide you later or tommorow (depending on the workload today :D ) with leader-UU-great leader-city suggestions - civilopedia entry for the Minoan civ. In a couple of days (ok, more like three or four) and if you agree on removing the Trojans (they are not excactly one of the prime med civs you know) and replace them with another Greek civ and also add a third Greek civ (suggestion: Athens, Syracusae, Macedonia), I can provide you with the same data for all three.

And another thing, I'd have to agree on the "replace Welsh with Celts" notion made by Harlan. The Celts of mainland Europe are represented by the Gauls, so the Celts of the isles should be represented by a more generic term.

thamis
May 29, 2002, 12:43 AM
Harlan:

I am quite aware that the civilizations that I chose were not "on the map" at the same age. You are right that Rome comes very late, it was even founded (so the legend says) by the Trojan refugee Aeneas. I'm not trying to make a scenario. For me a scenario is bound to a certain era. But -as in the normal civ game- it should be possible to fully rewrite history.

In reality, Babylon, Troy and Persia were defeated before anyone ever heard of the Celts... It's not about "temporal parralelity", I think. In the normal CIV game you have the Babylonians (probably the most ancient civ) and the Americans... They "could" have appeared earlier, you know what I'm saying?

Trojan Horse - yea, you're right. Once it worked and never again. Someone suggested it and I think the "privateer" unit is cool. But if more people don't like it, I have no problem removing it.

I was thinking about adding the Dacains. I tried to find out some stuff about them, but couldn't find anything. It's a good spot, too, because there's a "gap" in the map.

The worker comes early, but it can't do anything in the beginning. You have to research Agriculture and Tools to have a fully functional worker. :-)

Oh, and I used your resource graphics, Harlan. Great work!!!

Exsanguination:

Cretans = Minoans?
I can put the Arabs in and place more Oasis around there. I'd really love to put the Dacians in, though, too. What civ to leave out?

General:

Celts = Gaul, Welsh, Irish, Cornish, etc.
The Celts is just a name for a mix of people who had a fairly similar culture and used the same pottery technique (don't know the name in English).

Okay, gotta go. I'll come back to this later!

thamis
May 29, 2002, 02:32 AM
Ad Hominem:

Yea, a Minoan leader/city list would be great! I only had a fairly old book of Crete with only a small part dealing with history... I just picked major sites and used them as city names.

I agreee that Hebrews and Arabs don't seem very important to me. Now we might think of them as important, but imagine how the emperor of Rome thought of them... ;-)

Okay, we can replace the Trojans. What part of the Greek Civ was in Asia Minor? This spot should have a civ. In my playtest the Troians really added to the balance.

Something else:
Does anyone have any idea for other ships? Bireme or something like that. Does anyone have an ani for it?

Ad Hominem
May 29, 2002, 02:46 AM
Asia minor? The Ionian... Alicarnassus (Herodotus came from here) was one of the prime cities. Lots of cultural stuff by the greeks in Asia Minor, but not much influence in the general Greek matters or the greek civ in political or military means. You could add a macedonian greek civ and place them in Thrace, close to Asia minor (to give them an expansion window there).

Making an "ionian" civ would be... well, not excactly fitting. I don't know. Anyway, check your pm too :D

thamis
May 29, 2002, 03:28 AM
Ad Hominem, Harland & Exsanguination, thanks for all the good comments!

After taking all your comments into consideration that's what I think:

I want this to be a mod with all the important CIVs of the ancient med. The mod will include all important CIVs that appeared (or were destroyed) between 4000 BC (Ancient Age) to 600 AD (Migration Age). That way the player can either replay actual history by choosing the CIVs appropriate for the time he wants to play in OR just play a normal CIV game with the usual mix of civilizations.

I also want to have a larger variety so that people don't have to make a whole new mod for their scenarios, but just make the scenario for this mod. So let's make it real good! :D

Therefore I believe we should use the following CIVs:

--Rome

--Egypt

--Babylon

--Germanic Tribes

--Goths

--Greece

--Minoans
I will leave Troy out. Both, the Greeks and the Minoans have the Coracle and will be able to expand throughout the Aegaean (sp?) sea very early on.

--Iberia

--Huns
The idea of using barbarians for the huns is good, but the barbarians are just too weak, even if they don't get any bonuses. I tried giving them good units but that just blasts every civ that starts out close to a camp away! Having a crippled civ is better, I think.

--Gaul

--Persia
Very cramped area with the Babylonians in there, too, but it might work, since there's fertile land around. Also, the Persians are supposed to expand north of the Caucasian Mts. Darius invaded Scythia (but was defeated...)

--Scythians

--Carthage
Yes, they are a Phoenician colony, but they played a more important role in history. This way you can replay the Punian Wars in the game!

--Welsh
We can agree on a different name, but not Celts, since that's a huge cultural group that was common in all southwestern Europe.

--Dacians
If anyone can provide me with city/leader details. I know where they live(d), but I don't have any info. I found a site, but that was in Romanian...

((--Thracians
If anyone can provide me with city/leader details. For them I could research in the Greek Sagas that I'm quite familiar with.))

CORRECTION:
-- Macedonian Greeks
If anyone can provide me with city/leader details. They'll start somewhere north of Greece. I'll try to see on old maps where exactly.

That should me 16 civs!

I decided against:
- Arabians: They might have been important, but not a large Empire as most of the other nations were.
- Lydians: Persia is already in a tight spot...
- Hebrews: Well, they moved around a lot, had a major cultural influence on our modern world but they never were a real "power".

With some tricks I could add more CIVs, but I'll only do that if you can provide me with the necessary information (a leader and at least 15 city names).

Whoever wants to help: First post on what you want to work on, so that we don't do double work!

For now I will try to work on bugs, mainly. I could do research on Thracia, too. :king::p

Ad Hominem
May 29, 2002, 04:00 AM
Err... Thamis, Thraceans are all but a significant civilization. The only thing they were famous for - before they became "hellenized", "turned-into-Greek-alikes", was their peltastes, a light infantry type of warriors, very sought-after as mercenaries in the Greek world.

So, just putting Macedonian Greeks to start in the Thrace area (which is not very innacurate, anyway, Thrace was one of the first conquered areas outside of the main kingdom of macedonia) would make much more sense.

Think of it: Mainland Greeks (plain: Greeks) with Pericles as a leader, hoplite and coracle as the UUs and the city list provided with Civ3 (plus some others). And Macedonian Greeks with Alexander as a leader, phalanx and hetairoi cavalry as the UUs and a city list I shall provide you with. Wouldn't that be lovely?

Dacians, OTOH, is a quite interesting civ, and their starting location should be in todays Romania. I got some info on them somewhere, but not much. I'll dig it up.

Ad Hominem
May 29, 2002, 04:32 AM
As promised, info on the Minoan civilization. I have posted the same stuff at Apolyton, during a (now dead and burried) project I was working on... Anyways, here we go:

Minoan

Leader: King Minos
Capital: Knossos

Unique Unit: Coracle seems fine as one of the UUs. Another one should be the Cretan Archer, or the Cretan Slinger. They had both the best archers and slingers in the ancient Greek world, heavily sought after as mercenaries since the Mycenean times well into the hellenistic era.
If you use three UUs, you should add all three of those. If two, the ship and the archer.

Civ traits: Commercial (that’s for sure) and probably Religious.

Great Leaders: Now, there is a hard one. By mythological sources we know of three (yup, only three) figures of some significance that could be called “Minoan great leaders”: Two men (warriors) Idomeneas and Merianes (or Meriones) are found in “Iliad” as the leaders of the Cretan force fighting the Trojans together with the other Greeks.

Also, we know of Ariadne, daughter of King Minos (mythology again) and also from the later Cretans (on the isle of Crete the Minoan civ flourished) we could add Nearchos, the admiral of Great Alexander.

City list

Knossos
Phaistos
Zakros
Malia
Gortys
Olus
Komos
Amnessos
Nirou
Myrtos
Arkhanes
Ierapytna
Vathypetro
Lindos
Gournia
Rithymna
Males
Rhytion
Miletos
Lycastos
Lindos
Tylissos
Helephthairna
Anopolis
Glamia
Dreros
Lato
Ierapolis
Katri
Grammion
Amphimalion
Istros
Ertaea
Dragmos
Petra
Illatia
Phalaserna
Myrina
Itanos
Keratos
Panormos
Pharai


OK, now you need only a civilopedia entry about the Minoan civ. Right?

thamis
May 29, 2002, 07:51 AM
Thanks for the Minoans!

I found a unit animation, I think it was called "British Longbowman". It's a slightly different-looking Longbowman. I'll use that one and make it the Minoan Longbowman. <g>

There's no slinger animation, so we'll just have to wait. ;-)

As I am very familiar with ancient mythology, I of course know of Idomeneas and Merianes. I'll use the greek -not anglicized- names: Idomeneos and Meriones. Ariadne is hardly a leader, because she went away with Theseus... Nearchos is good, though.

What's the link to your old stuff, maybe we could use some more?

Sodak
May 29, 2002, 10:00 AM
First, how about calling the Gauls the Gael? Gaul is a latin word. Small detail... As for the Greeks, does anybody contributing know enough about Dorian, Ionian, et al, to warrant having them separate civs?

How about Hittites or Assyrians? Both were quite important in the eastern mediterranean.

Whatever the final form, it looks to be an excellent mod! :goodjob:

Edit: O yeah, resource idea: MARBLE, olives (+figs, dates, very important foods)

thamis
May 29, 2002, 11:02 AM
Originally posted by Sodak
First, how about calling the Gauls the Gael? Gaul is a latin word. Small detail... As for the Greeks, does anybody contributing know enough about Dorian, Ionian, et al, to warrant having them separate civs?

How about Hittites or Assyrians? Both were quite important in the eastern mediterranean.

Whatever the final form, it looks to be an excellent mod! :goodjob:

Edit: O yeah, resource idea: MARBLE, olives (+figs, dates, very important foods)

Well, acutally "Gaul" isn't latin either but French/English. In Latin it's "Gallia". "Gael" is a good idea, but the only problem is that the city names are in Latin, too... Can you give the "original" names?

Ad Hominem already stated that the Ionians weren't a really important player in history.

The Assyrians and the Babylonians shouldn't be there at the same time, because they lived in the same area. And why create a new civ when you have one in the original game? ;)

Hittites were important, yes, but except for Hattussah I don't know any other city name, or leader name...

Olives... Yes, good idea. I don't have any picture, though, but I could make one. Harlan made a marble resource, I think? I'll check on that.

thamis
May 29, 2002, 11:14 AM
Dacia

--Leader: Decebalus
http://www.geocities.com/cogaionon/Large/l72.JPG

--Capital: Sarmizegetusa

--Cities:
Sarmizegetusa
Barbosi
Breaza
Pecica
Cugir
Piscul Crasanilor
Popesti
Stancesti
Cetateni
Capalna
Batca Doamnei
Zimnicea
Poiana
Patridava
Petrodava
Ziridava
Singidava
Piroboridava
Tamaridava
Dokidava
Porolissum
Apulum
Potaissa
Germisara
Azizis
Berzovia
Acidava
Napoca
Drobeta
Dierna
Sucidava

--Leaders:
Burebista
Deceneu
Dicomes
Dapyx
Zyraxes
Roles
Cotiso

--UU:
Apparently they were good riders, but I couldn't find any more info.

Info on Dacia (http://www.geocities.com/cogaionon/)

Exsanguination
May 29, 2002, 12:55 PM
Here is a link to the Ancient Macedon mod I whipped a while ago - here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?threadid=14722&highlight=macedon).

It's got city names/leaders/etc. The only thing is I stuck to keeping Alexander the Great as their leader (which I feel is their unalienable right - the Greeks don't deserve him!!!). If you'd like, Philip II is a worthy candidate for the Macedonian leader, but I say go with Alexander the Great - the REAL leader of Macedon. (not greece!!!)

Harlan
May 29, 2002, 03:33 PM
You shouldn't discount civilizations just cos you don't know much about them. The Arabs of the ancient world were quite different than the Arabs of Mohammed's day. The century just before Mohammed saw the conquest and near total destruction of this civilization (after a long decline), the great cities abandoned.

But prior to that destruction, Southern Arabia was the wealthiest part of the world, according to Herodotus. The largest city, Marib, had a peak of about 30,000 people, which made it one of the biggest cities of the time (the Alexander era, the one I know most about). They even had buildings up to 8 stories high! There were numerous cities there, and vast irrigation networks, catching water from the very high (and forested!) mountains. Queen Bliqis, the Queen of Sheba, would make a great leader.

You probably think more of the Arabs of the north, Mecca and Medina and all that. Even they did much better than in Mohammed's day, profiting from the trade passing through. A second Arabian power center developed around the city of Petra in the north (also to later crash with the decline of the trade routes).

Here's some stuff I grabbed off the web. I'll do the same for Lydians later (who by the way were nowhere near the Persians, you must be thinking of something else).


Sheba, region, Arabian Peninsula

biblical name of a region, also known as Saba, of S Arabia, including present-day Yemen and the Hadhramaut. Its inhabitants were called Sabeans. According to some passages in Genesis and First Chronicles, Sheba (the Hebrew spelling of Saba), a grandson of Noah’s grandson Joktan, was the ancestor of the Sabeans. According to other passages in those books, however, Sheba was a descendant of Abraham. The Semitic colonization of Ethiopia was established (10th cent. B.C.) from Sheba. In that century the biblical queen of Sheba (called in Muslim tradition Bilqis) made her famous visit to Solomon. Situated along the trade route from India to Africa, Sheba was known as a region of great wealth. Trade between Israel and Sheba is mentioned in First Kings. Elements of Sheba’s culture, which was at its height between the 9th and 5th cent. B.C., is evidenced by the dam (since collapsed) near Marib, the capital of Sheba, and by the many inscriptions found there. Written in Himyaritic, a Semitic language, the inscribed characters derive from Phoenician writing. Ethiopia conquered (c.525) Sheba. In 572, Sheba became a Persian province and, with the rise of Muhammad, fell under Islamic control and lost its separate identity.

The most prominent and celebrated figure of Yemen’s ancient history is the legendary Queen of Sheba (named Bilqis in the Arabic Tradition) , who visited King Solomon during the 10th century B.C. bringing with her a large retinue and an abundance of gold and spices . Challenging Solomon with riddles, she eventually had to capitulate to his wisdom and accept his God . This exotic story has sparked the imagination of countless generations and has found entry into three Holy Books: the Bible, the Ethiopian Kebra Nagast and the Holy Koran. Prehistoric tools and settlements have been found in various places in Yemen. Archaeologists recently discovered that irrigation in the Marib oasis dates back at least 5 millennia . The ancient South Arabian Kingdoms which started out as theocracies, all developed in the mouths of large wadis between the mountains and the great desert .

The kingdom of Saba with its capital at Marib was the most powerful, at times dominating all of the South Arabia . The great Marib Dam, built to harness and exploit the seasonal floods by means of an elaborate irrigation system , provided sustenance for some 30,000 inhabitants and was counted among the wonders of the ancient world. The Sabaeans were not only great builders and technicians, but also successful traders . The Greeks and Romans called the southern part of the peninsula "Arabia Felix", glorified by the fabulous wealth enjoyed by its inhabitants. Since the domestication of the camel (around 1500 B.C.) large Sabaean caravans moved north along the edge of the desert , covering in 60 - 70 days the distance from Qana on the Indian ocean to Ghaza on the Mediterranean sea. The trade route, which was protected by the kingdoms along the way, became famous as the "Gold and Incense Road". Incense was an item of high prestige, burnt in large quantities in the temples of the Mediterranean civilizations. It grows naturally only in the lower Hadhramaut.

Among the luxury goods supplied by Sabaean merchants were spices, ebony, silk, fine textiles from India, rare woods, feathers, animal skins, and gold from East Africa. To secure their trade monopoly , the Sabaeans kept the origin of their riches a secret. At the end of the second century A.D., a new power emerged in south Arabia : the Himyarites . They eventually conquered Saba and established their rule over all Yemen . But the first centuries A.D. were a time of great changes in the world, that eventually also led to the downfall of the ancient South Arabian civilization . The trade monopoly was broken when the Romans started to deal with India directly via the Red Sea and the Indian Ocean. The overland route declined , and social and religious structures began to disintegrate. Negligence caused the final destruction of the great Marib Dam in 570 A.D. which, according to Arab traditions , caused thousands of Yemenis to emigrate to the north and establish new Arabic countries. Judaism and Christianity spread among the people, and the old celestial gods lost their power . Eventually, Yemen became deeply involved in the Persian-Byzantine power struggle . In 530 A.D. a joint Himyarite and Persian army cooperated to free Yemen from Ethiopian colonists. The Persians remained in power until the arrival of Islam in 628 A.D.

Here are some pictures:

http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/2007/landmark.html

Ad Hominem
May 30, 2002, 12:01 AM
Exsanguination

Get a grip to reality, will ya? Or are you one of those who believe that Alexander is of... slavic origin? Historical evidence has proved beyond any doubt that the Macedonian higher classes were purely of Greek ancestry (Dorian/Doric) and the population under them if not of Greek origin (as were most) was later hellenized.

Plus Alexander conquered the world under the banner (and he was quite proud of it) of the Greek civilization.

So, what's your problem? The rivalry between southern and northern Greeks? If you know anything about history, you should know that the Greeks kept fighting each other much more than they did against others.

thamis
May 30, 2002, 12:42 AM
Harlan,

you are right about discrediting nations, but it's impossible to include anything I don't know about. ;)

Thanks for the info, now I also have a new Wonder: Marib Dam.

I think it is possible to include more than 16 CIVs, I'll find out how. Provide me with data. Having the Queen of Saba in CIV3 would be really cool! :)

One problem: Jemen is not on the map that I made. But I could put them in the southeasternmost point of the map (which is a little east of Mecca) and give them tons of Oases.

Harlan
May 30, 2002, 05:08 AM
Here's some scoop from off the web on the Lydians.

LYDIA

Lydia was situated in the Western part of Asia Minor, on the river Galis, with its main city Sardis. It was first mentioned by Homer already in the 8th century B.C. under the name Maeonia. It was celebrated for fertile soil, rich deposits of gold and silver. Lydia became most powerful under the dynasty of the Mermnadae, beginning about 685 BC. In the 6th century BC Lydian conquests transformed the kingdom into an empire. Under the rule of King Croesus, Lydia attained its greatest splendor. The empire came to an end, however, when the Persian ruler Cyrus the Great captured Sardis about 546 BC and incorporated Lydia into the Persian Empire. After the defeat of Persia by Alexander III, king of Macedonia, Lydia was brought under Greek - Macedonian control. Soon after that, Lydians were assimilated by Greeks, Greek language and Greek culture, and though Strabo in the 1st century A.D. talks about Lydians as an ethnos, they did not have much of their original language at that moment.

CROESUS

The expression "as rich as Croesus" comes from the legendary wealth of the king who reigned from 560 to 546 BC over Lydia in western Asia Minor. Gold from the mines and from the sands of the River Pactolus filled his coffers to overflowing. The Lydians in the time of Croesus, it is believed, were the first people to coin money.

The fame of the splendid court of Croesus at Sardis attracted many visitors. One of these, according to a legend, was Solon, the lawgiver of the Greeks. The king proudly displayed his treasures and asked Solon who was the happiest man that he had met. Solon named two or three obscure men who had lived and died happily. Croesus was surprised and angry and said: "Man of Athens, dost thou count my happiness as nothing?" "In truth," replied Solon, "I count no man happy until his death, for no man can know what the gods may have in store for him."

There was indeed great misfortune in store for Croesus. Cyrus the Great of Persia, extending his vast domains, was soon threatening the kingdom of Lydia. Croesus consulted the oracle of Delphi in Greece. The oracle replied: "If Croesus goes to war he will destroy a great empire." So Croesus went out to meet the army of Cyrus and was utterly defeated, he destroyed his own great empire.

The old story goes on to relate that Cyrus ordered Croesus to be burned alive. When Croesus saw the flames creeping upward to consume him, he remembered the words of the wise Solon and cried out, "O Solon! Solon! Solon!" Supposedly Cyrus was so moved by the story of how Solon had warned the proud king that he ordered Croesus to be released. Cyrus asked to Croesus why he shouted Solon's name, and Croesus asked him another question "what your soldiers are doing now?", showing the persian soldiers taking all the treasures and destroying everything; Cyrus replied "They are plundering your city"; then Croesus said "They are not plundering my city, it's your city now and your soldiers are destroying your city". After that short conversation Cyrus the Great stopped his soldiers.

----

Here you can read about the founding of the Etruscan civilization by the Lydians (the current general theory is that Lydians came and mixed with the local population, forming a hybrid group):

http://members.tripod.com/~Centime/Etruscans/history.html

Lots of other good Etruscan info there.

Here is some stuff on the theory that the legend of Atlantis was an early Lydian city. Probably the least exotic/ sexy Atlantis theory, so it doesn't get much attention. But it seems the most probable to me. Regardless, the text you can read here gives a good idea of how early Lydia existed, even though only bits and pieces of history can be found about it:

http://www.knowledge.co.uk/xxx/cat/james/

Someone else mentioned Ionia as a possible Greek civ. Lydia was basically the same area as Ionia, and many Greek cities, such as Ephesus, where probably founded by the Lydians and later Hellanized.

Harlan
May 30, 2002, 05:31 AM
By the way,
Regarding the problem of Yemen not being on the map - easy - make a new map! :) The map thumbnail in the Ancient Med map thread has a loooooot of problems. Obviously hand drawn. You should use LookANinja's program and have a map graphic converted into Civ3 format, so you know everything is accurate. At the same time, you could have some more of Persia, and put the Persians where they belong.

Just did a check - the map you posted in Troqulet's Ancient Med Mod thread is pretty much exactly the kind of map you need. Lots more of Persia in that one. Except you should tilt it, so that you get more of Arabia, and less of the Sahara and Russia areas (the northeast and southwest corners). Then you'd really have a great map!

As an aside, how did you make that map so wide? I thought maps had to be as wide as they were tall.

Harlan
May 30, 2002, 05:35 AM
Here's an example of a better map angle I was talking about in the previous post. This took me just a couple minutes to whip up, I'm sure with a little more work one could maximize the important areas better.

With LookANinja's program, you could get the very below image converted into a Civ3 map in an hour or two.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads/example_med.jpg

thamis
May 30, 2002, 06:03 AM
Sorry for the stretch... :P

Harlan:

You're funny... hand drawn! This is a 100% accurate conversion from a map, done by a program that was posted on Apolyton. The map is as wide as high, 140x140. I know it seems to be different. That's because civ3 maps are in a 3d-view.

I didn't make the map larger because I wanted the -in my opinion- most important parts of the ancient med to be large enough to look good. Italy and Greece are a real problem when the map is too small / the covered area too large!

Since this is not a scenario, but a mod, it's no problem to include several maps! I changed the civ3mod.bic, the rules are not in the map file... That's what I was aiming for: different maps with different civs! Thus we could make several maps with different foci. On huge one going up to Persia, the one I made concentrating on the Roman Empire, and one of Greece to Persia to replay the Persian wars or the Trojan Wars!

Also, we should include all civs that we can think of - more than 16. In each map we can allow / disallow the correct civs for the map and therefore have a really huge and good mod! We could even make different maps in different time periods (for those who want historical accuracy) that have different civs! :D

I attached the map it was converted from:

thamis
May 30, 2002, 06:07 AM
Oh, and the map that was posted in the Ancient Med MAP is not done by me!!!

Have you downloaded the mod and had a look at the current map (ancient world.bic). It's really good and really accurate! This is map which I posted the preview of in the Troquelet's thread.

thamis
May 30, 2002, 10:22 AM
Dacians: Civilopedia Entry


#RACE_Dacians
^The Dacians or Getae were a people that lived in the Carpathian-Danube territory of modern Romania. The Greeks often thought of them of northern Tracians, but the political history, the archeological findings and especially the little that we know of the two languages, prove that the Thracians and the Dacians are two distinct peoples, well individualized, that spoke two different Indo-Europeans languages, and that were only related to one another.
^Herodotus was the first to note the Dacians. When the persian Darius I tried to attack the Scythians he crossed the Bosporous with a vast army and continued north. The Dacians tried to stop him but were defeated easily. Later the Greeks founded colonies at the coast of the Black Sea (ca. 700 BC) and had contact to the Dacians.
^Dromihetes was the first king of all Dacia. When the Macedonians attackt Dacia in 300 BC Agatocles, son of Lisimah, the leader of the Macedonians was captured. After Dromihetes treated the prisoner nicely, gave him gifts and sent him back to his father, peace was restored. Dromihetes even married a daughter of Lisimah.
^In 82 BC Burebista became king of the Dacians. In several campaigns he captured northern Greek cities, which resulted in more wealth for Dacia. He also fought the Celts back who tried to invade Dacia.
^After Burebista's death Dacia split into several kingdoms. In the 1st century AD Dacia slowly adapts the Roman culture. The Romans expanded very close to the Dacian borders.
#DESC_RACE_Dacians
^
^
^In 87 AD Diurpaneus (Decebalus) fought the Romans at Tapae. He wins the battle and totally destroys the Roman legion. The war machines are captured. After the battle Decebalus ("The Powerful One") became king of all Dacia. One year later, there is another battle at Tapae, but this time victory is on the Romans. There are peace negotiations which result in a peaceful compromise. Trajan becomes emperor and Decebalus violates the peace of 89. After several years of planning the Roman armies leave in March 101 AD. They cross the Danube and besiege Dacia. Rome defeats the Dacians, and in 102 there is peace again - this time on bad terms for the Dacians. Between 102 and 105 AD both Trajan and Decebalus prepare for another war. In 105 AD Roman legions cross the Danube and victoriously fight the Dacians. In 106 AD all Dacian resistance is defeated. Now Dacia was a Roman province - the only province "on the other side" of the Danube.

Any suggestions?

thamis
May 30, 2002, 10:42 AM
Info on Macedonia:
http://www.anemos.com/Diaspora/macedonia/Macedonia_Index.html

Good stuff, I just couldn't find the location of Aegai, the capital...
Correction: Found it!

thamis
May 30, 2002, 11:41 AM
Okay, I added Dacia (see above) and Macedonia (with the data from Exsanguination's MOD). Both with Civliopedia entries.

Now we need:

-Lykians (everything) (Harlan?)
-Arabs (everything) (Harlan?)
-Minoans (pedia text for civ -done- and for UU) (Ad Hominem?)
-Dacia (UU) (Harlan?)
-Macedonia (UU pedia text)
-Coracle pedia text (What is a Coracle, anyway?)
-Goth city names (hard, they didn't build much, only on the Krim penninsula)
-Iberia (UU, pedia texts, leaders, more cities)
-Huns (cities, pedia text)
-Gallia (UU, pedia texts)
-Scythians (UU, pedia texts)
-Carthage (pedia texts, more cities)
-Welsh (UU, pedia texts)

We could replace the Welsh with a more general term for the British Celts... Ideas? Were the "Britons" a tribe?

Also, we need animations for the Leader heads. IMHO we don't need an animation, a static picture is fine.

I will do the new government types soon.

Isak
May 30, 2002, 03:40 PM
Thamis: I think you're doing the Phoenicians great injustice by saying that the Carthagenians were more important historically than they. Good thing they were peaceful merchants, or they would for sure have risen from their graves and whooped you for it ;)

Other than that, this looks like it will be a great mod, I'm looking forward to finding the time to play it soon. :goodjob:

Some more Carthagenian (pah!:p ) city names (just to give myself the impression I am helping out as much as I would like to)

Carteia
Mainake
Sexi (I'm not kidding - hope this doesn't get bleeped out)
Abdera
Lixus
Hippo Regius
Hadrumentum
Sabrata
Soleis
Motya
Tharros
Sulcis
Nora
Mago
Palma
Ebusus

Incidentally, they would all pass as Phoenician city names as well if the need should arise ;)

thamis
May 30, 2002, 11:41 PM
I have decided to include more than 16 civs. Therefore, the Phoenicians are welcome. My decision against them was only playability: I wanted all civs to have equal chances to expand. But I'll do as many civs as possible.

Thus, if you have stuff on Phoenicia - tell me! :)

Lares
May 31, 2002, 01:54 AM
Thamis, first of all, your mod is really great! Probably the best mod arround here! I like to play especially the Troians and the Carthagenians.

Some remarks and ideas: I found a small bug around 230 BC: The program terminated without any obvious reason. I used the Savegame-Editor to analyse the problem: The Welsh tried to build the Broadswordman, but the directory of this unit including all the files were named Broadswordsman. Renaming the files and there content solved the problem.

I think it would be a good idea to convert the map into a flat map. This should be no problem with the MultiTool.

I like the TechTree very much. I was annoyed by the late appearance of naval units and the tech necessary for exchanging world and territory maps at first, but this perfectly reflects the isolated development of the ancient civ. I hope the in-game TechTree and the civilopedia texts will be done soon.

Is there any way to restrict the computer players from settling all over the dessert? Playing the Carthagenians, I faced Egypt surrounding my territory by settling all of the sahara ... I read something about creating a new terrain type (Sand or something), which basically is a renamed jungle terrain. The settler are given a wheeled flag, so they are prohibited to enter the "sand" square.

I would like to see some kind of "wood" ressource. Many parts of the mediterranean were deforested in ancient times, for example Tunesia, Croatia or the Lebanon. The huge fleets of roman times were the reason for this. I think you should make the wood ressource a prerequisite for building naval units.

Is it possible to change the color of the Carthagenians? Grey is no good contrast to the mini map terrain ...
Thamis, continue your good work!

Ad Hominem
May 31, 2002, 05:46 AM
Here is the civilopedia entry for the minoan civ. Enjoy.


To find the roots of the Minoan civilization we'd have to travel through the mist of the late Neolithic era. The first inhabitants of the island of Crete seem to have arrived there during the 6th millennium BC. There is no clear evidence where they came from. Asia Minor looks like a good candidate, but it's not the only one.

The new inhabitants of Crete had already the knowledge of cultivating the soil and kept domesticated animals. They also knew how to make fine pottery. They also travelled to the nearby Cyclades islands in seek for obsidian, which they used to create tools and statuettes.

The Neolithic civilization was followed by the bronze age civilization, which is actually what we call today "Minoan civilization". This civilization lasted over 1500 years, from 2600-1100 BC, and reached the height of its prosperity in the 18th - 16th centuries.

Very little was known about Minoan Crete before the great excavations of Greek and foreign archaeologists that began about 1900, and the discovery of the palaces of Knossos and Phaestos, with their astonishing architecture and wonderful finds.

Its history had passed into the realm of legend and remained a distant memory in Greek tradition and mythology.

The ancient authors speak mainly of Minos, the king who had his capital at Knossos, and was a wise lawgiver, a fair judge (who therefore judged souls in Hades after his death, along with Rhadamanthys and Aiakos) and a great sea - dominator. Homer calls him "..companion of mighty Zeus..", and Thucydides informs us that he was the first man to hold sway over the Aegean with his fleet, and that he captured and colonized the Cyclades, driving out the Carians, and freeing the seas from piracy.

Plato speaks of the heavy tribute that the inhabitants of Attica were compelled to pay to Minos - the historical basis of the myth of Theseus can easily be recognized - and Aristotle attributes his thalassocracy to the geographical position of Crete.

This position was, in fact, particularly favorable, both for the Minoan domination of the sea, and for the growth and development of their wonderful civilization. It was the crossroads linking three continents, and the racial elements and cultural strands of Asia, Africa and Europe met and mingled here to produce a new way of life, a new philosophy of the world and an exceptionally fine art that still strikes one today with its freshness, charm, variety, and mobility

The mixture of racial elements in Crete is demonstrated by the different skull - types discovered in the excavations there.

In general terms, however, the Minoans form part of the so - called "Mediterranean type", they were of medium height and had black curly hair and brown eyes.

Their language is not known, for the written texts have not yet been deciphered, but it appears to have belonged to a separate category of the Mediterranean languages.

After 1450 BC when the Achaeans had established themselves in Crete, a very archaic form of Greek was used as the official language and gained some dissemination. This is the language that may be read in the Linear B texts that are already deciphered.
Homer was aware that the inhabitants of Crete were divided into a number of tribes, and mentions the names of five of them: the Pelasgians, the Eteocretans, the Kydonians, the Achaeans and the Dorians, adding that each spoke its own language. He also emphasizes how densely populated Crete was, with its 100 cities, and mentions some of them, such as Knossos, Phaestos, Gortys, Lyttos, Kydonia, and Rhytion.
Excavation has demonstrated the truth of Homer's comments, revealing a host of Minoan sites, four of which were "palace" centers, developing around a large palace. Those known today, apart from Knossos and Phaestos, are at Malia and Zakros.

The Minoan civilization had reached a point of great strength and power in the eastern Mediterranean, and they had regular contacts and trade with the Egyptian kingdoms of the same era. They also sailed as far as the British islands, according to some historical evidence.

In the height of the minoan civilization the Cretan ships were the dominant force in Aegean Also, Cretans had a great tradition in the use of the bow and the sling. That tradition carried over well into the ancient world, and the Cretan archers and slingers (along with their neighbours the Rodians) were sought after as mercenaries in the whole ancient world.

thamis
May 31, 2002, 06:23 AM
Lares:

I'm sorry to tell you that the Troians will probably be removed from the standard map. They're my faves, too, though. ;)

Thank you for telling me about the bug. I had the same problem and didn't know what caused it (I thought it had something to do with the Hanging Gardens). I didn't think of looking at it with the savegame editor. :eek:

In the next vesion there will be a wood resrouce that will be required for ships and maybe other units/buildings.

I will post the tech tree first, so that everyone can give his opinion before working out the in-game tech tree (which is quite a pain is the a... butt).

Settlers will have to settle the desert because we will include the Arabs - settling in modern Jemen. Also, the Carthaginians are supposed to build ships and conquer the coast of Spain... :p

The color of the Carthaginians is black. I know that CIV3 sometimes changes coulours for no apparent reason. Anybody an idea how to fix this?

Ad Hominem:

Thanks for the Minoans, I'll put it in. Good text!

I will post an update later this evening (CET).

Lares
May 31, 2002, 07:33 AM
Two more bugs: Building the Longswordman will cause a crash. The reason for this is the .ini file in the art directory. It should be named longswordman.ini instead of longwordman.ini -- well, this might be another greek unit with the tech of rhetoric as prerequisite ;-)

Another bug seems to be connected with the oracle, but I`m still working on this ...

If you`re doing another version, please allow a maximum of 16 civs! If you think that less civs are best suited for your scenario, you could give some kind of recommendation. But a restriction to, say 12 civs, in the scenario bic can`t be by-passed by players like me.

thamis
May 31, 2002, 08:20 AM
Yea, as I said the mod is still in testing phase... I'll correct both the Broad- and Longswordsman in the next update. I already fixed the Coracle, so don't bother. I will also allow 16 CIVs.

thamis
May 31, 2002, 11:54 AM
Version 0.2.3 Patch

Check out the first page of this thread for the new update. :jump:

Special thanks to all contributors, especially to Ad Hominem and Harlan!

thamis
May 31, 2002, 12:29 PM
The Tech Tree:

thamis
May 31, 2002, 12:32 PM
...

thamis
May 31, 2002, 12:33 PM
bla

thamis
May 31, 2002, 12:34 PM
This is not supposed to be the final tech tree (that's why I post it here first before doing the in-game one). If you think something is wrong and know how to do it better, tell me. <g>

last but not least

thamis
Jun 01, 2002, 05:08 AM
There's a bug connected to building the colossus. I don't know why, but I'll try to find out.

Lares
Jun 01, 2002, 08:46 AM
I discovered probably the same bug by building the oracle or the pyramids. It seems that only the human player is affected by this.

thamis
Jun 01, 2002, 10:13 AM
The Solution:

When you choose to build a wonder in the city view, you will notice that the icons are messed up. That's because many buildings are missing and it reads building per building, regardless the name. The Colossus, for example has the icon of the lab.

Now if you look at:

civ3\Art\City Screen\buildings-large.pcx
civ3\Art\City Screen\buildings-small.pcx

All buildings are numbered. Before, Colossus was #36. There it now is #21.

Now look at:

civ3\Text\PediaIcons.txt

The second-last section is called:
"#WONDER_SPLASH_ART begin"

All wonders are numbered, strangely enough starting with "30" (note that in the buildings-large.pcx the first wonder is #34. Difference of 4 - strange, but oh well...)

The game looks into the PediaIcons.txt for Colossus. In the buildings list it's the 21st (and not the 36th). Therefore the game would look in the PediaIcons for Colossus as #17 (remeber the difference of 4), but that entry doesn't exist.

Now if you change the numbers for the wonders in the PediaIcons.txt, it will work. In this case, 15 is Pyramids, 16 is Hanging Gardens and 17 is Colossus. It works!

thamis
Jun 01, 2002, 11:16 AM
Here's the updated file:

Lares
Jun 01, 2002, 01:22 PM
Here is one more bug. It took me quite a while to understand this one: Opening the city display of some cities connected by a road net caused the termination of the program. Other cities not on this road net were not affected by this bug. The solution: Thamis, you´re using some 13 or so luxury goods in your scenario, but civ3 supports only 9 luxuries. If any city is connected with a luxury ressource above the ninth place of the ressource table opening of the city view will cause the game to crash. Perhaps you could change some luxuries into bonus ressources.

I hope this will be the end of bug hunting ...

thamis
Jun 01, 2002, 01:55 PM
Hi!

Hmm, strange. This shouldn't be the case. I'm sure other mods have more luxury resources, too... I'll try to find something out about it, because I really don't want to have less luxury resources - that's what I like so much: every civ can trade with almost every other civ!

Here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=17371) might be the solution:

GIDustin: Has anyone looked at the Art\City Screen\luxuryicons_small.pcx file yet? This MAY beone of the reasons why resources are failing, however i rather doubt it :P

I'll work on it.

BTW: Another "bug". Iberia has a starting position with no grassland around. Therefore the city size doesn't go above 2 unless the computer researches Agriculture and irrigates. Apparently, there is a certain routine that tells the computer to build a settler in the capital for the first xx turns, afterwards it won't. Thus I had a one-town Iberian nation that had a superb city and tons of units (compared to only one city). They never built any settler, because they never irrigated!!!

thamis
Jun 01, 2002, 02:58 PM
Lares: I read like 10 threads on this topic and they all said there's no way to do it. I posted a crash-free update now (or so it seems...).

Check for the new update 0.2.6 on the main post!

Harlan
Jun 01, 2002, 04:26 PM
Did you see Gelvan's post on resources:

Only 8 Luxury Resources. They have to be placed on exactly the same position on which the original luxury resources are now. That means you can REPLACE luxuries, but you can't add or remove any of them. If you want to replace a luxury resource by another pic, you have to copy the new resource on the position of the luxury resource you want to kick out. In hard words: Do NOT use the "luxury"-flag of the editor.
Note: Replacement of the luxury-pic inside the city screen is possible by edding the luxurysmallicons.pcx.

Only 36 different pictures. You can only use the first 36 pictures of your resources.pcx. That means, if you want to use any picture after coffee (no 36), you have to copy and paste it, and replace one of the first 36 pics.
Note: In the EDITOR more than 36 resource-pics will be seen but not in the game itself. They are there (contributing food etc. to the tile) only they are INVISIBLE. You can use more than 36 pic, but you can't see them.

You can add as many strategic resources as you want (well, at maximum 28 (36 - 8 luxuries) ). If you have more than 8 strategic resources they won't show up in the city screen, but at least they cause no problems and work well with wonders and units.

Harlan
Jun 01, 2002, 04:46 PM
By the way Thamis,
I have a new version of my resources mod out, so you might want to check that out and include some of that. For instance, there's a new Olive Oil resource, which would be very appropriate to this time period.

Also, have you seen the maps on my website? Tons of good maps there to help you figure out which resources were important, and where they were located.

http://apolyton.net/haven/

I saw your map for the mod. Better than the one I thought you were using, but still highly flawed. The map you're basing it on is inaccurate in many ways. For instance, the vegetation for that map is based from around 500 AD, when there was a lot less forest in this area. I have a better map for you to base yours off of, which I will email you.

And given that there's absolutely no Jungle or Tundra in your map, I was thinking you may want to rename them and use them for something else.

I've been told that when one gives a terrain type a food value of 0, the AI will not build cities on it, except along the edges (or if there are big food resources in the area). So if you want to prevent cities in the Sahara, that should take care of that. I see your latest rules has Desert give 0 food- has anyone noticed if that has helped? Giving desert no Irrigation would also help I think.

Given that Tundra can have forest on it, I suggest you rename it Evergreen, and put only forest with the "pine" appearance on it. On all other forests, never use the pine appearance. So this way, all you have to do is change the underlying terrain graphic with something else and you have a new terrain type.

There are a number of different things you could do with Jungle. Sand is one, another good idea would be Swamp.

Harlan
Jun 01, 2002, 09:04 PM
Also,
Check out my recent posting on my wonder splashes thread. I have a new bunch there. Lots of those could fill the lack of pictures you have now, and you may be inspired to add some wonders after seeing pictures of them. for instance, why not have all 7 of the official seven ancient wonders in your mod?

thamis
Jun 02, 2002, 03:09 AM
Harlan:

Resources:
Yea, I figured it out. I'll work out a new distribution of resources with only 8 lux <sniff>. I will also change them - silk isn't a mediterranean resource, ivory will become strategic and named "elephant", gems seem not so important to me (the quantities are so little that you can't fill a trade caravan and travel from here to there...). Olives are great! I also downloaded a map from your website on resources. I'll use that for guidance. But please don't complain about "not realistic": I will give each civ three lux resources of one kind, so that everyone has to trade.

Map:
Yes, I will include other terrains, but in the next map. As I said above we should make many maps, so I'll make this one the "500 AD migration age map". Please tell me of the other flaws, so that I can correct them. And eMail me the other map (see pm).
BTW: On your website you placed my map, but when you click on it it's a broken link.

The AI still builds on the desert because there's oasis there. The cities don't get big, though. I think desert settlement is ok, and totally ineffective. <g> In some games the AI was better off because of resources, but I didn't put resources into the Sahara (except for Ahaggar Mts.).

Wonder Splashes:
Great thing! I will put those in. I wish to add all 7 wonders of the world, but not now. I will try to gametest and remove the current bugs first (adding stuff only causes more) and do more additions later.
If anyone is willing to do so, please put the new wonders that harlan suggested into the civilopedia.txt and pediaicons.txt. We also need city icons for them. I will not work on it right now.

thamis
Jun 02, 2002, 06:40 AM
There's a new patch with new resources and only 8 lux.

thamis
Jun 03, 2002, 12:35 PM
Strange bug:

The game just exits. I wanted to know what the bug is and used the savegame editor to find out. I revealed the map and found out that the game exits when a Persian catapult attacks some Egyptian unit (it's the catapult in the Persian city of Bampur). I looked at the civ3mod and found out that I didn't give the catapult and ranged attack animation and thought "that's it". I tried a new game with the civ3mod, gave myself a catapult and placed a barbarian 2 fields away and attacked - fine.

But now I still wasn't sure, so I tried something else: I game the catapult to myself (Rome) and attacked - everything's fine. Then I gave myself the city Bampur (I thought the units inside would belong to me, too, but they don't). Now the strangest thing: The catapult is still in Bampur, and it still attacks, but now the game doesn't crash! I am clueless...

I attached the two savegames (both with revealed map), one with Bampur to Persia and one with Bampur to Rome.

Oh, and in the next update the catapult will have "ranged attack animation", of course.

Harlan
Jun 03, 2002, 02:48 PM
Thamis,
I'd recommend making Amber a luxury resource, and Olive oil a bonus resource. Olive oil was more of a basic thing like wheat, whereas Amber was a truly rare luxury (and a huge part of the barbarian economy in northern Europe).

It may take me a day or two to get that map to you.

Lares
Jun 05, 2002, 03:35 AM
Well, I haven`t experienced your last bug, Thamis. but the oracle bug seems to be still there. I wondered why you`ve changed the Wonder_Splash_numbers in the txt file. Perhaps this is the reason for the game crash.

I`ve tried out four different civs in this scenario for now: The Troians (early version), the Chartagenians, the Minoans and the Egyptians. They all were nice to play and had their own "regional flavour". Especially the huge number of ressources contributes to this good game feeling. I think the game is balanced out quite well.

One idea: The Minoans have to research wood working to build the coracle, which means that they have to develope at least two techs to leave their one or to city island of Crete. I think this hampers them quite much. Perhaps they could be given the necessary tech at the start of the game.

Keep on your good work on this mod, Thamis!

thamis
Jun 05, 2002, 10:59 AM
Harlan: You're right about amber. I'll change it.

Lares: I sent you a PM concerning the Oracle. I'm just playing the Minoans and for me it worked out well. I went straight for wood working and sent out two coracles. I first built 3 cities on crete. But I could change them to commercial/industrious, so that they have tools from the beginning and just have to go to wood working.

Harlan
Jun 07, 2002, 09:47 PM
Thamis,
I tried sending you an email but didn't have your address. I sent you a private message instead, but maybe you didn't get that. What's your email?

I have something good to make a Med map out of, or I can even make a Med map. I've just figured out how to make irregular maps and am keen to try making one.

thamis
Jun 08, 2002, 02:37 AM
Harlan:

I sent you an eMail about that, but maybe you didn't get it. I'll send you another PM.

If you want to, you can make the map. I'll post an update today that will include amber as lux resource.

What do you mean by "irregular maps"? Different resources and bbn camps in each game?

thamis
Jun 08, 2002, 08:22 AM
The new update 0.3.0 is out! Here's a preview on the new era splashes:

thamis
Jun 09, 2002, 09:53 AM
Another interesting bug:

The game exits for no apparent reason in the middle of my turn. GOD! I want an error message! Anyone an idea?

Harlan
Jun 09, 2002, 01:06 PM
Check this out for some info on Troy:

http://www.bib-arch.org/bswb_AO/bswbAOFeature1.html

thamis
Jun 10, 2002, 01:10 AM
Interesting article. I remember the great discussions in the papers (I'm from Germany). This was a while ago, though.

What I find really interesting is that Troy supposedly is a vassal state of the Hittites.

I read the Illiad twice (once in hexameters, once prose) and to me it seemed like it was a city state, similar to the Greek ones. In the original (hexameter) version there's a huge list of Troian allies. Why would Troy ally with all different cities, tribes and nations if it was backed by the Hittites?

I believe in Homer (if he even existed is another question), or let's say in the Illiad.

Now for the MOD, I decided to re-include Troy (as a 17th nation) which will just be in the civ3mod.bic, but will only be available in a troian war scenario.

I'm just reading Herodot and will include the Lydians as well, since now I know more about them...

Do you know anything about Hittite cities or leaders? We could also include them... (YES!!!!! INCLUDE EVERY NATION OF THE WORLD!!!!! :crazyeye: )

Harlan
Jun 13, 2002, 01:46 AM
Hittites should definitely be in. You've been sending me all kinds of maps - you should have a good idea of Hittite cities and so forth, already.

thamis
Jun 15, 2002, 06:37 AM
Addition in the next update. Please correct if you know better. :)

CIV: Etruria

Militaristic & Commercial

King:
Porsenna

Leaders:
Lars Porsenna

Cities:
Caere
Volci
Gravisca
Tarquinii
Casa
Telamun
Vetulonia
Populonia
Volaterrae
Bologna
Mantua
Adria
Spina
Arretium
Cortona
Perusia
Rusellae
Clusium
Volsinii
Veii
Pompeii

thamis
Jun 15, 2002, 06:39 AM
Addition in the next update. Please correct if you know better. :)

CIV: Phoenicia (Cannot be used with Carthage in map)

Expansionist & Commercial

King:
Hiram

Leaders:
Hannibal
Hiram

Cities:
Tyre
Sidon
Ugarit
Berytus
Byblos
Arvad
Acco
Kition
Carthage
Utica
Malaca
Caralis
Panormus
Leptis Parva
Cartenna
Rusicade
Gades
Rusucurru
Girba
Leptis Magna
Carthago Nova
Oea
Tingis
Rusaddir
Alalia
Selinus
Himera
Akragas
Theveste
Saguntum
Carteia
Mainake
Sexi
Abdera
Lixus
Hippo Regius
Hadrumentum
Sabrata
Soleis
Motya
Tharros
Sulcis
Nora
Mago
Palma
Ebusus
Kinyps
Melite
Lilybaeum
Lucentum
Meninx
Acholla
Thapsos
Kossyra
Gaulos
Diarrhytos
Igilgilis
Kartaia
Kasios
Karmel

thamis
Jun 15, 2002, 06:41 AM
Addition in the next update. Please correct if you know better. :)

CIV: Hittites (Cannot be used with Troy in map)

Militaristic & Scientific

King:
Suppiluliumas

Leaders:
Mursilis
Muwatallis

Cities:
Hattusas
Kanesh
Malatya
Arinna
Konya
Pteira
Beycesultan
Chatal Huyuk
Carchemish
Harran
Purruskhanda
Karaoglan
Hacilar
Suberde
Can Hasan
Mersin
Sakchagozu
Arslantepe
Norshuntepe
Tepecik
Ashikli Huyuk
Acigol
Chiftlik
Cafer Huyuk
Gritille
Chayonu
Wilusa
Ilion
Gordium
Boghazkoy
Kultepe
Kolophon
Tarsos
Aleppo

thamis
Jun 15, 2002, 06:55 AM
Addition in the next update. Please correct if you know better. :)

CIV: Lydia (Cannot be used with Minoans in map)
Also representing Ionia

Commercial & Industrious

King:
Kroisos

Leaders:
Alyattes
Gyges
Jobates

Cities:
The last cities are Ionian colonies in the Black Sea
Sardeis
Miletos
Phokaia
Smyrna
Kolophon
Priene
Limnoion
Maiandros
Halikarnassos
Assessos
Pteira
Samos
Ephesos
Mytilene
Abydos
Knidos
Kos
Chios
Klazomenai
Abydos
Sestos
Lampsakos
Kyzikos
Kalchedon
Magnesia
Panionion
Didyma
Sesamos
Kytoros
Sinopa
Apollonia
Odessos
Tomis
Istros
Tyras
Olbia
Theodosia
Phanagoreia
Tanais
Pityus
Dioskurias
Phasis
Trapezunt
Kotyora

thamis
Jun 15, 2002, 10:22 AM
Addition in the next update. Please correct if you know better. :)

CIV: Kush (Nubian Kingdom)

Commercial & Religious

King:
Taharqa

Leaders:
Piye
Alara
Kashta
Tanuetamani

Cities:
Kerma
Napata
Sesebi
Kawa
Soleb
Kumma
Buhen
Faras
Abu Simbel
Beit el-Wali
Gerf Hussein
Tombos
Sai
Amara
Semna
Uronati
Dorginarti
Mirgissa
Kot
Aniba
Quban
Ikkur
Korsoko
Gebel Barkal

thamis
Jun 18, 2002, 02:43 AM
Check the new update - new CIVs, new units, and an easy-to-play system (only in the full version). Unzip it into the CIV3 folder and it should create CIV3\Ancient Mediterranean. There you can launch the game - it will back up your files, launch CIV3 with the MOD files and restore your files afterwards.

Warning for Modders: Existing custom units might be overwritten.

Sodak
Jun 22, 2002, 08:21 PM
Another tiny comment: If it is your preference to use it, the name Carthage is derived from the phoenecian name Kart-Hadesh, which literally means New Town.

(So Carthago Nova must be New New Town... :crazyeye: )

Cool mod. I'll download presently! :goodjob:

thamis
Jun 23, 2002, 02:29 AM
Yea, I heard of Karth-Hadasht before. But I prefered to use the "modern" name because otherwise people wouldn't understand. I mean, I don't use the old egyptian city names either (well, I don't know them, too...). But thanks for the comment!

Oh, and if you like the mod - rate it! :D

HarryS
Jun 23, 2002, 06:21 AM
Hi Thamis,

It's been a while since I checked out this bulletin board and I've just come across and downloaded yout Mod. It looks like it would be a fascinating version to play if I could work out how to get it running!

You say there are links in the "Ancient Medeterranean" folder to play the game but what do I do wth them? Which folders go into which CIV folder?

Also I use a Mac, will that be a problem? I have used other MODs before with few problems but your MOD seems quite different.

I'm looking forward to give your MOD a test drive.

Regards,

Harry

thamis
Jun 24, 2002, 12:36 AM
HarryS:

On the PC:

You have to unzip the file into your CIV3 folder. Thus, you should have a sub-folder named "Ancient Mediterranean" which also has sub-folders (Art, Text, ...) and files in there. The civ3mod.bic is in the /Ancient Mediterranean folder. The content of the folder mimics the folder structure of the CIV3 folder.

Then you run the links for launching the game or the PLAY.BAT and ANCIENT WORLD.BAT.

Mac:

Generally it should work the same on the Mac. I don't know whether batch files work on the Mac or not (acutally I'm quite sure they don't).

If they don't, you can copy the contents of the "ancient mediterranean" folder into your civ3 directory, overwriting the files. You have to back them up before doing so, of course. Then you'll have the mod firmly installed.

I'll check in the MAC forum how to make batch files for the Mac. :)

Ropes4u
Jun 24, 2002, 06:08 AM
Ok so I am stupider than I look.. I d/l file extracted to my CIV folder.. started with the Play Ancient Mod link and.... there is lincoln staring me in the face.. what the heck did I do wrong?

Thanks, John

ps I am new give me a break.

Lares
Jun 24, 2002, 06:32 AM
Ropes4u: Well, the Lincoln should be there, because the leader heads haven`t changed in this mod. But that`s one of the few things unmodified ...

Thamis: Is there any way to implement single picture leader heads instead of the animated ones? If this is possible I could try to help and find some graphics.

thamis
Jun 24, 2002, 11:42 AM
Lares:

Yea, I can do that and I was gonna do that. I can just make one FLC file with one frame, no problem. Someone even wrote that you can rename the pcx to flc, but I doubt that.

I already have heads for:

Hannibal (Carthage)
Taharqa (Kush)
Queen of Sheba (Not included yet)
Decebalus (Dacia)

I would also like to use ancient pictures, I mean reliefs of busts of the leaders. Made in ancient times. That also gives a feeling of the art of that civ and adds to the flavour! :)

God
Jun 24, 2002, 12:05 PM
Why is Mamaluk next to the Arab Horsemen? Weren't Mamelukes turks in the Medievel period? They weren't Arabs. IIRC they fought the Crusaders in some of the battles, and ruled over Egypt (slave dynasty). Kicked out their masters and took over the whole little empire in Egypt. They don't have anything to do with Babylon.

HarryS
Jun 24, 2002, 02:46 PM
Thamis,

Thanks for talking me through it I'll try again. I'm really looking forward to giving it a try.

Regards,

Harry

Ropes4u
Jun 24, 2002, 05:43 PM
Lares

Thanks for the help.

Ropes

thamis
Jun 25, 2002, 03:34 AM
God:

Yea, the naming is not correct, I admit. The Mameluck will be renamed to Camel Rider soon. It's just a flavour unit and replaces the Horseman (with same stats).

The Arab Horseman just refers to the typical southern Desert Riders (opposed to Knights and Mounted Archers). Arab just refers to the region, not the culture. I could rename them to North African Horseman, but that's kinda long...

Raw is War?
Jun 25, 2002, 11:13 AM
Sorry I only just got round to posting this:
A Brilliant, wonderfull and wicked mod! :goodjob: :goodjob: :goodjob: :goodjob: :goodjob: :goodjob: :goodjob: :goodjob: :)

God
Jun 25, 2002, 12:33 PM
Originally posted by thamis
God:

Yea, the naming is not correct, I admit. The Mameluck will be renamed to Camel Rider soon. It's just a flavour unit and replaces the Horseman (with same stats).

The Arab Horseman just refers to the typical southern Desert Riders (opposed to Knights and Mounted Archers). Arab just refers to the region, not the culture. I could rename them to North African Horseman, but that's kinda long...

Ok, i understand. I'm going to download this mod. Looks good! :goodjob:

Mongoloid Cow
Jun 28, 2002, 04:47 PM
I downloaded your mod, it seems good, but whenever I try to meet an enemy civ, civ 3 quits. It only happens sometimes, and with some of the civs. For example, I can meet the Iberians and then have it quit on the Romans, but other times I can meet the Romans and not the Iberians.

Am I doing something wrong in the way I am trying to play it, or is it because I am using a wrong version, or is it something else?

thamis
Jun 29, 2002, 02:29 AM
Mongoloid Cow:

I have had similar problems in earlier versions of CIV. With 1.21f this problem has been fixed for me. I'm playing with CIV 1.21f and AM 0.3.5 and all is wonderful. I've played many times and play-tested every civ. I have no idea what's wrong. Maybe someone else has encountered this problem?

Mongoloid Cow
Jun 29, 2002, 03:51 AM
But I've got V1.21f. I'll try again, but I'll report if I have the problem again

SCDARS
Jun 29, 2002, 09:07 AM
was my first thought when I "accidently" saw this thread.
This seems to be a very promising effort to create an ancient Civ3... :) And even one of the most respected pioneers of historical Civ2-design is assisting you, you're lucky :goodjob: Seeing Harlan here convinces me this will be a splendid mod. :)

Feel encouraged to present your project also on the German Civilization Webring Forum (http://www.civforum.de/).

Other Links:
I think you shouldn't miss the Scenario Ressources linked on Mathias Civ2-Page (http://buerger.metropolis.de/mathiashk/Ressourcen.htm), which obviously can also be helpful for Civ3 scns.

Originally posted by thamis
Addition in the next update. Please correct if you know better. :)

CIV: Etruria

Militaristic & Commercial

King:
Porsenna

Leaders:
Lars Porsenna

Cities:
[...]Ca. 3 years ago I started a scenario project about the decline of the Etruscans and did some research for it. I choosed to use Etruscan names and still have the city.txt file as well as lots of infos (most of the links I collected have found their way to Mathias Civ2 ressources page above).
If you're interested, I can post its contents here.

BTW, I rather would choose Volsinii as Etruscan capital than Caere (which is really too close to Rome I guess). Caere (etruscan: Cisra) possessed the important port of Pyrgi and its religiosity is supposed to be the origin of the word ceremony, but Volsinii (Velzna) appears to be the only city which ever came close to a "capital" of the Etruscan League of the most important 12 city states as far as this term can be used in that context.

thamis
Jun 29, 2002, 09:25 AM
It would be great if you could post the info you have. Matthias' page is so huge, it would take me forever to find what I need.

SCDARS
Jun 29, 2002, 11:08 AM
What kind of info could you need? Of course, Mathias list of links is huge, but it also has a wide coverage of ancient times ;)

Here's the list of cities with "etruscanized" names I used:

Velzna
Clusium
Curtun
Tarcxuna
Veii
Cisra
Fufluna
Aithalia
Perusia
Arratum
Velathri
Vetluna
Velx
Felsina
Adria
Spina
Mantua
Faesulae
Vada
Saisium
Nequincum
Tusculum
Montalto
Cusi
Graviscae
Tlamu
Suana
Suessula
Strium
Marzabotto
Pisae
Florentia
Rusellae


I also have one correction for the Carghaginian/Phoenician city names: Although I first made the same mistake, refering to my sources it seems that "Hadrumentum" actually was spelled Hadrumetum.

thamis
Jun 29, 2002, 11:58 AM
Leaders would be cool, too. :)

Isak
Jun 29, 2002, 12:31 PM
Originally posted by SCDARS
I also have one correction for the Carghaginian/Phoenician city names: Although I first made the same mistake, refering to my sources it seems that "Hadrumentum" actually was spelled Hadrumetum. You're absolutely right - guess I should turn on the light when reading through old notes ;)

I may be able to dig out some more leader names. Velthur Spurinna off the top of my head, but I'm sure SCDARS is way ahead of me already :)

About the capital - personally I would prefer Tarquinia/Tarcxuna - the first major economic power among the city states, but since the cities of Etruria went "up and down like the Assyrian empire", there really isn't an obvious choice, I guess.

Good to see the mod still coming along - haven't had much time to play it yet (due to some other project I'm involved in), but still following it closely.. keep it up, Thamis.

DecrepitSled
Jun 29, 2002, 02:01 PM
Help! Can't download.

thamis
Jun 30, 2002, 02:20 AM
try again. maybe the server was down.

Carthago
Jul 01, 2002, 07:47 AM
I like the idea of this mod but I was playing as Carthage and everytime my scout met up w/ a warrior from Egypt the game crashed. It seemed if either of us wanted to begin communications it cause a fatal error to occur.

How do I fix this?

hsoj23
Jul 01, 2002, 03:55 PM
I can't get the civs like the Trojans, Kush, Hittites (i think), Etruscans, Phoenicians to pop up in the area where you pick your civ. I think these were the ones you added last. Can you tell me what I'm doing wrong? They appear in the civilopedia.

Mongoloid Cow
Jul 02, 2002, 01:30 AM
I have also run into problems with Egyptians and communications :confused:

thamis
Jul 02, 2002, 03:14 AM
Carthago:

You need a) CIVIII 1.21f and the newest version of the MOD. If you only used the updates, maybe you should download the full version. That version is play-tested with all civilizations and it has always worked. (Remember: The full version should be unzipped into the CIV3 folder so that it creates CIV3\Ancient Mediterranean (sub-folder).) You can also try to download the diplomacy.txt for 31 civilizations (somewhere on Apolyton). It is included in the mod, though.

hsoj23:

Make sure you have the newest version of the civ placement tool. Also make sure that the civ placement file includes those nations. In case of doubt, download the full version.

There's a new update version 0.3.6 here (http://www.creative-hu.de/public/am_update_0.3.6.zip).

thamis
Jul 02, 2002, 03:30 AM
For the next two weeks there will be neither support nor updates, because I'm going to become very "uncivilized" and hike & camp in the Icelandic wilderness. :D

I will come back to all questions and problems as soon as I'm back, of course!

hsoj23
Jul 02, 2002, 09:27 AM
Nevermind, I got it now.

Carthago
Jul 02, 2002, 09:57 AM
i do have the newest patch for civ 3 and i thought i did download your most recent version of the mod. Is it the the one dated 6-17 and is 11.7 mb?

also when i do download the file and unzip it in my civ3 folder i get an Ancient Med folder but also get copies of the files that were in that folder intermingled w/ my orig civ3 files.

Is that normal?

hsoj23
Jul 02, 2002, 11:50 AM
Should the Sumerians be in this mod?
What do you think?

thamis
Jul 03, 2002, 07:07 AM
Carthago:
No that's not normal. Maybe some of your WinZip-settings are wrong. You have to check "keep folder structure" or something like that.

It should create an Ancient Med folder containing several files and directories, and not a single file should end up in your main civ directory. After playing for the first time, some new files will appear, but those files will not overwrite anything from your original game.

If you can't get it to work, unzip it into any new folder you create, then organize the files in there and copy them into the Ancient Med folder. That's the safest way if it doesn't work.

hsoj23:
It might be fun to include them. I still have a few civs left. If you can provide me with a city list and leader list, I will do so.

Allright, that's my last post before leaving!

Bugwood
Jul 07, 2002, 02:34 PM
Hi I just came back from the States where I bought too many books on civilizations and stuff, so I thought hey let's use this for Civ and wanted to build an ancient scenario but then found out it takes too much time but then I found you guys: great work!

OK I read about half of the threads and from what I've read, I can conclude that Mesopotamia is getting overcrowded. Thus, I would suggest not to include the SUmer, also because they are really really ancient. Rather include the Assyrians, also for convenience sake, as there is far more information on them than on the Sumer.

Anyway, I was also wondering if someone has a link to a guide or sth of how to create your own units in psp, for i really dont have a clue.
Maybe next time I have something more substantial to add.
Keep up the good work!

Mongoloid Cow
Jul 07, 2002, 06:00 PM
Bugwood - you'll need FLICster by Moenir to make units as the *.flc files are a strange kind.

Micaelus
Jul 12, 2002, 09:46 PM
You said you needed help with some civilopedia entries? Which ones yet...I'd be more than happy to help. This is an unbelievable MOD. Great work.

Latex
Jul 15, 2002, 03:55 PM
Huns are not barbarian!
Remember that Huns were defeated The Roman Empire and came to the Rome (452 AC - spring). Papa Leo implored Attila (emperor of Huns) for not to raze the city. Because Rome was the center of papacy, biggest city and culturel power of Europe. Then Attila decided to return to his home. But he could easily plunder Rome, cause Romans knew that they could not stop him. The Huns and Romans were fighted each other at Katalun with armies of both 200.000 warriors on 451 AC (21 June). The leader of Roman army was Aeitus and the leader of Hun army was Attila. Hun army was defeated the Roman army and Attila conquered Galya (which was the depot of Roman army at that time)... So on....
Attila was the ruler of both west and east between 434 AC - 453 AC.
So the Huns should be included but not as barbarians!

thamis
Jul 19, 2002, 06:23 AM
Micaelus:

Well, for all the new technologies I need entries, for the new resources, for some units and for some civilizations. Quite a lot, eh? I'm probably not going to do much of them because I personally don't use/need the civilopaedia, but maybe others (like you) are more enthusiastic about it and I'd be very happy if you could contribute!

Latex:

Huns... Barbarian... Just a question of definition. First of all, the "Barbarian" civs are just those civs that the Romans and Greeks called Barbarians. I know a lot about Germanic culture and it was not Barbarian at all. The only thing for the game is that the AI won't make use of all the possibilities. Back then, before these tribes conquered e.g. Rome, they didn't have a road system of libraries. For the game they were just nomads, or loosely organized tribes. These tribes also have the best terrain and would easily become more powerful than Rome or and other mediterranean nation. That shouldn't happen either.

And what you described the Huns as is just how I made them appear in the game - strong and aggressive. :)

hsoj23
Jul 20, 2002, 11:55 AM
why does it say missing file in text /pediacons.txt? now i cant play

thamis
Jul 20, 2002, 12:34 PM
hsoj23:

Something must have gone wrong. Check if you have a file named pediaicons.txt in your /civ3/text/ folder. If so, I don't know what's wrong. Check the spelling?

If not, go to the /civ3/Ancient Mediterranean/text directory, check if there's the file there. If not, I attached the file. If so, there shouldn't be anything wrong.

thamis
Jul 20, 2002, 12:35 PM
hsoj23:

Something must have gone wrong. Check if you have a file named pediaicons.txt in your /civ3/text/ folder. If not, copy the file from the Ancient Med/text folder to your civ3/text folder.

If that wasn't the case, go to the /civ3/Ancient Mediterranean/text directory, check if there's the file there. If not, I attached the file. If so, there shouldn't be anything wrong.

Isak
Jul 20, 2002, 12:52 PM
Thamis, I think hsoj23 has installed patch 1.29f and once that is done, the game starts checking if the Pediaicons.txt has references to the Tech Icons (as they have been moved out of the BIC) and produces an error if it doesn't find a reference to both the large and small icon for each tech in the game.

I can see that your Pediaicons.txt doesn't have that yet, so I think that might be what is producing the error (though the error description is a bit vague, it sounds familiar).

If you need any help, just let me know - I just had to go through the same thing for the DyP mod, and I would hate to think that people were unable to play my second-favorite mod for too long ;)

thamis
Jul 20, 2002, 03:40 PM
well, if you could help me on that i'd be really happy about it!

Isak
Jul 20, 2002, 03:54 PM
Sure thing - I will start right away, and give you an update as soon as I know how much needs to be done.

Isak
Jul 20, 2002, 05:47 PM
Thamis:

Ok, I think I should have it finished by tomorrow afternoon (that's sunday afternoon GMT - I have to root for Jalabert a bit too, but expect it late afternoon, at least. ;) )

You're going to have to start thinking about "placeholder graphics" soon, I think - I will just refer to some of the existing files but not everything will be nice and clean.

Please don't modify your BIC until you get an updated one from me - I have added in all the missing Civilopedia Entry names, and will do the update of the Pediaicons tomorrow.

hsoj23
Jul 20, 2002, 05:55 PM
.

sapon
Jul 20, 2002, 06:59 PM
Thamis, congrats on all the great work you've done. This mod has rekindled my interest in CivIII. I do have a few website's linking to Roman Army information: http://webpages.charter.net/brueggeman/table-of-contents.html

http://members.tripod.com/~S_van_Dorst/legio.html#Romarmy

The support troops don't really seem like a good unique unti for the Romans, perhaps Cataphractii or Pretorean Guard's would be more interesting? I also noted that the cost for Legions is the same as Elephant divisions...I would think the more powerful unit's would cost more to create? Also the Romans used a wide variety of infantry, artillary, cavalry, and arhers in their armies. They were refered to as Auxilliaries and often consisted of elite cavalry from conqured peoples, the lords and whatnot.

Just my 2 cents.

Isak
Jul 21, 2002, 01:10 AM
Ok, here is the Beta version of the compatibility fix for those who have installed Firaxis patch 1.29f.

Don't install this unless you are running version 1.29f

There might still be bugs, but only playing the game will show, so please report them if you find any.

Thamis:
Please just email (isak@privat.dk) me if you have any questions or comments or anything.

Unless you plan to change the Techs in the near future, I might just try and see if I can figure out how to set up the tech-tree screens (or is someone already working on that).

thamis
Jul 21, 2002, 02:47 AM
All right, great! I'm a little busy right now and depend on all the help I can get to get the MOD going for 1.29! :D

thamis
Jul 21, 2002, 02:52 AM
Sapon:

Thanks for the info. I'm still not very happy with the support troops. Maybe an auxiliary rider would be better? I'm just missing graphics here. :/

sapon
Jul 21, 2002, 12:19 PM
Thamis,

I wish I was an artist or I would jump at the opportunity to help you. Perhaps allow the legion unit more diversity? Legions were basically armies with combined arms and advanced engineering capabilities. They built cities, forts, roads and waged war's including sieges. They employed calvarly, artillary, heavily armed and armoured infantry (Legionaries) as well as light infantry, scouts and archers. All this was supported with a large contingient of slaves and servants to carry extra equipment. Make the Legion a do all multi unit...builds forts, roads and can form armies. Don't know if it's possible but it would be more realistic.

Mattius41
Jul 22, 2002, 05:59 AM
If you would like help creating a scenario, I would like to use your mod to create a scenario of ancient mediterrean around the time of 200 BC when Rome had unified italy and use Carthage, Gauls, selucids, ptolmeys egypt, Macedonia, greek city states, pergmantum(greeks in asia minor) and perhaps celto-iberians in spain, a tribe to represent barbarians in Germany and further east.
I would be happy to take care of cities and relative size, impovements and any civs that need to be added. I would need help with new units and improvements and their graphics.

One improvement that would need to be modified is the city walls thus making them far more effective. The tech tree that you use(if i remember right) is excellent.

Tell me what you think Thamis

thamis
Jul 22, 2002, 06:18 AM
I would love it if you would make a scenario for this mod. If you think city walls should be changed, we won't change it for your scenario but for the mod. And if you want to add units and improvements, we'll add them to the MOD. Of course! That's what the mod is for, for anyone being able to create scenarios with it.

I'm not sure if I have included this batch file to launch the editor with the mod in the last update, but here it is. Copy this batch file into your civ3/Ancient Mediterranean directory and execute it there and you'll get the editor for the MOD.

I won't be home for this week, so just go ahead and we'll discuss it next week!

Bugwood
Jul 23, 2002, 01:25 PM
OK, guess Im going through the same problems you discussed before - crashing a.s.
One question though: when you're discussing the tech tree, do you mean the one that appears in the game or just the layout, for my science advisor screen looks a bit messy, with several advances stacked in the upper left corner.
I must say, till it crashes, the mod is great!!!
By the way, when I didnt have a separate 'ancient mediterranean' folder, the new icons for resources appeared in the game, but now everything is in the folder, the icons are replaced by the regular civ3 ones :(

HarryS
Jul 24, 2002, 08:18 AM
Hi Thamis,

I posted a message a few weeks ago saying that I didn't understand how to install your MOD and you were kind enough to go through it with me. Well I finally got round to trying it and the game refused to launch.

I don't think it's a compatibility thing as I've used Korn 469's MOD quite happily for months now I just don't understand what it is I'm supposed to do with the files in the Ancient Mediterrenean folder.

Could you do me a favour and talk me through it again?

Thanks,

HarryS

Mattius41
Jul 26, 2002, 04:54 AM
Update on my scenario of hellenistic times...
Problems and issues galore, scenario creation on even the most basic level is not like the civ 2 days.
Having sorted out all cities units improvements, wonders I confidently expect to move on to playtestin my scenario....bollocks it simply crashes fatal exception red message. So mabye its a problem with civ mod.bic so i reinstall ...here we go the scenario file is no longer usable, not a valid civ3 file. Nobody warned me my scenario would become unusable. So I think the crash it had was to do with the fact most civs had culture borders with other civs but as far as the game was concerned it had never met any civ and it was 4000 BC. Ughh so how can i send you this file Thamis or even just meet in a chatroom to get some advice. Id hate to start again but i can if need be. Perhaps scenarios are not going to be possible on the Expected scale with 1.29

thamis
Jul 29, 2002, 12:49 PM
HarryS:

First of all, are you a PC or a Mac user?

Then, which version(s) and/or update(s) are you using. I recommend downloading the latest (full) version with the latest update. Send me a PM with you eMail address, and I'll guide you thru installation.

Thomas Davie
Jul 31, 2002, 10:09 AM
I download and install the 0.35 version, 0.36 update and the version 1,29 patch and the game bombs to the desktop. And then, pending a reinstall of the game, Civ 3 doesn't work.

Questions;


1) What files do I need to download for a COMPLETELY UNMODDED version of Civ 3 1.29?

2) Exactly where do I install them.

3) Exactly what file do I use to start the game and exactly how do I get back to an unmodded Civ 3 without backing up or reinstalling anything?

thanks for answering these questions if possible.

Tom

thamis
Jul 31, 2002, 10:20 AM
Hi!

For an unmodded CIV3 you basically have to install CIV3 and 1.29f. If you installed the MOD wrongly (you don't have an "Ancient Mediterranean" subfolder in your CIV3 folder), you gotta deinstall CIV3, reinstall and then install the official 1.29f patch.

How to install the MOD:
Unzip it into your CIV3 folder. Important: Do not overwrite any files! If it asks you, your ZIP program is not creating the "Ancient Mediterranean" subfolder. Then you have to create that subfolder yourself and unzip the downloaded file(s) into that folder.

How to install Ancient Mediterranean Updates/Patches:
Unzip them into the "Ancient Mediterranean" subfolder. If you are asked to overwrite files here, say YES.

Thomas Davie
Jul 31, 2002, 03:46 PM
I did install it exactly as you've outline. And then I went to run it using play.bat (correct?). Howq to get back to my defaulty Civ 3 install?

It did not work though; just crashed to the desktop.

thanks

Tom

(ps, assuming that I get this up and running, I bet I would be able to make a nice Punic War scenario with your mod)

thamis
Aug 01, 2002, 03:08 AM
When you use the play.bat file, it should not change your CIV3. All original files are restored.

Which CIV3 version are you using?
Which AncMed version are you using, and which updates?

Did you download a pre-0.3.5-Version and then update?

Thomas Davie
Aug 01, 2002, 10:14 AM
1) Completely uninstalled Civ3 and deleted any remaining files.
2) Did a full install of the game
3) Applied 1.29 patch
4) Applied your 0.3.5 version mod, and it created the appropriate folder within the Civ 3 folder.
5) Applied the 0.3.6 upgrade to the ancient med folder
6) Applied the version 1.29 patch fix

Then, using the play.bat file, the game starts and works. However, the science advisor screens are comepletely messed up, so I can't see what I am researching, what to research, etc. So I decide to quit the game, and it crashes to the desktop.

Running on Win XP Pro with the most recent drivers for everything.

*NO* other mods or changes to Civ 3 at all.

Tom

sapon
Aug 01, 2002, 10:58 PM
When the batch file get's restoring files...., it says file not found and lists the following: cities.anc, eraspash.anc, resources.anc, then when I start the scenario, it doesn't list the ancient civs. Using windows Me, says it copied 376 files etc...when i try to load a save file it says Load Error, Error reading file, missing entry in "text\pediaicons.txt" ICON_ then bombs to windows.

Any ideas?

thamis
Aug 02, 2002, 09:38 AM
Thomas:

The Science Advisor messed up is "correct". It's not done yet. You can see the tech tree in this thread (there's a link to it on the first post).

The crash to the desktop is definately not related to the MOD.

Sapon:

The missing entry in Pediaicons.txt is the 1.29f problem. Install Isak's patch, works fine.

The batch file errors have something to do with your directory structure. I can't see it from here, so I can only tell you what's needed. The Ancient Mediterranean directory that contains the play.bat has to be in the folder civ3\Ancient Mediterranean. Nothing else, or it won't run correctly.

What it does:
It goes back into the civ3 directory, then goes into the art directory, renames the cities directory to cities.anc, erasplash to erasplash.anc (etc) and then copies its own files over there. Then, after quitting civ3, it deletes the ancient med files and renames all .anc files to the original names.

If you right-click it and say "Edit", you can see what it does (it's plain text). Since I don't know what's wrong in your directory structure, that's all I can tell you. All works fine on my civ3, which is freshly installed with 1.29f and all AncMed updates installed.

Thomas Davie
Aug 02, 2002, 11:32 AM
When I say 'messed up' I guess I should have been more specific. Several of the techs seem to be placed on top of one another, or have portions of the graphic missing.


Thanks for all your help. It is appreciated. Just in case I've screwed somethign up (which is entirely possible), what is the correct order for installing 0.3.5, applying the patch and then the 1.29 'fix'?


Tom

thamis
Aug 03, 2002, 03:49 AM
Yes, I know what you mean by "messed up". The science advisor is not usable yet. Sorry about that. Just print out the tech tree on page 3 of this thread and don't use the advisor screen. Soneone (I think it was Isak?) wanted to do correct the advisor screen.

The correct order is exactly what you wrote:
- 0.3.5
- 0.3.6 patch
- 1.29f fix

Isak
Aug 03, 2002, 05:01 PM
Yes, I did offer to do the Tech Advisor screens, and hopefully after this weekend I will be able to do something about it.

Of course, if someone wants to beat me to it, feel free to do so ;)

Sapon: The savegame that caused the crash, was it started using a previous version of the mod (i.e. without the patch 1.29 fix) ??

sapon
Aug 03, 2002, 08:16 PM
Isak,

It appears so. The only way I can get the mod to run correctly is to install the files directly into my civ 3 file structure. If not the batch file appears to attempt to restore the backed up files while CIV 3 is still executing.

thamis
Aug 04, 2002, 03:48 AM
Here's a changed play.bat that does not restore any files unless you have finished playing the game (usually it shouldn't do it anyway, but what the heck...).

Isak
Aug 07, 2002, 05:03 PM
Finally got the Tech Advisor screens figured out, and with a bit of luck they will be finished this week, since I now feel like I am on a roll.... :)

Here's a sneak preview of the Ancient Age. A few of the boxes still need some adjustment and a few of the arrows have some minor graphic glitches - but heck, it's free.... ;)

Thomas_Davie
Aug 07, 2002, 10:11 PM
Keep it up (easy for me to say eh?). But it is appreciated, and that is probably what will get me to start playing this mod.

thanks

Tom

thamis
Aug 08, 2002, 02:30 AM
Yoo!

Great work! You finally did what I never wanted to do! :p
If we've finished that we can call this MOD version 1.0, I think! :)

Another idea: Can you put the cattle icon into domestication and the wheat icon into agriculture, maybe? Not a big deal, but would be cool.

protista
Aug 08, 2002, 04:57 AM
First of all, I wanted to thank you for all the effort, work and time you have put into this mod! It is an excellent idea, and one I look forward to playing extensively.

I have had one problem, and have three questions:

When I installed the mod, after running the 1.29 patch, when I clicked on the "play" icon, a window popped up which appears to be a DOS window, and a long series of files were displayed. After this, I was able to get to the main game screen. The screen was black, with the buttons visible, but nothing else? When I tried to run my original civ, the same black screen appeared. Reinstallation solved the problem, but I wondered what I am doing wrong?

The questions are as follows:

1.What is the DOS window/files manipulation doing?

2.I noticed a .SWP file in the Civ directory, and a large .SWP file in my DOS directory. They seem to take up a lot of HD memory, so I was concerned. Can they be deleted?

3.I am certain the file activity is related to backing up or changing files, which I understand, but wanted to make sure I could locate and recover any HD space taken up by the newly created files.

I am running WIN98SE, PIII 733, 512MB RAM

I want to emphasize that this post is in no way intended to be critical of this mod! The mod is an awesome idea/creation. I would appreciate any assistance as to figuring out what I did wrong in the installation process, and knowledge as to how to recover the lost HD memory space.

Any help will be greatly appreciated! We are anxious to run this mod!

thamis
Aug 08, 2002, 06:15 AM
The DOS window does backup your original files, copy the Ancient Med files, launch CIV3, then restore your original files.

The SWP files are windows' files. You can delete them if windows permits you to do so (it won't let you if they're important).

The black screen means that the files weren't copied correctly. Is the MOD in a sub-directory called "Ancient Mediterranean"?

protista
Aug 08, 2002, 08:17 AM
Thamis,

Thank you so very much for your very prompt reply to my posting!

I am going to attempt to reinstall the mod, and will be certain that it is in the general CIV directory. It is possible I had the mod in the Civ/Scenarios folder the last time!

One more question: From what you have just posted, the DOS backup/restoration process is completed before the actual mod begins. In other words, I will be able to play both the mod and my regular Civ games alternatively, if desired? This is my only remaining concern.

Thanks again for getting right back to my problem, and for all the time you are putting into this awesome Mod!

Protista

thamis
Aug 08, 2002, 12:27 PM
Yes, you can. If the mod is in the "Civ3/Ancient Mediterranean" folder, there's a "Play the Ancient Med MOD" link. If you launch that, you'll play Ancient Med. If you launch civ3 normally, you play civ3.

If the unzipping of the mod doesn't create the "Ancient Mediterranean" folder, you have to create it yourself and unzip it into there. Unzipping the MOD may !NOT! overwrite any files (the updates do, of course, and are unzipped directly into the Ancient Mediterranean folder).

Isak
Aug 08, 2002, 05:38 PM
Originally posted by thamis
Another idea: Can you put the cattle icon into domestication and the wheat icon into agriculture, maybe? Not a big deal, but would be cool. Sure thing - if you think of any other ones that need better icons (or if you think of an alternative for the Alphabet icon which I used as default for the new techs) just let me know.

Half-way through the Hellenistic Age now - will hopefully post a screenshot tomorrow.

Oh, and I noted that Rise Of Europe isn't set to an Era - is this an oversight or.....??

Thomas_Davie
Aug 08, 2002, 08:51 PM
If I right click on the techs in your science screens, will I get the pop-up or additional information that I would get in the default science advisor screens? Meaning that if I right clicked on tech 'X', I would be able to tell what other units I could then construct and what other techs were a prerequisite, etc?


thanks for any info.

Tom

Isak
Aug 09, 2002, 02:15 AM
Tom: You sure will - fortunately this is handled by the game, so I don't even have to lift a finger for it to happen :)

Some info will have to be added manually to the civilopedia though, like which techs allow diplomats, embassies, conscription, etc, but I can do that too, unless Thamis wants to do it.

Isak
Aug 09, 2002, 03:38 PM
Here is the Hellenistic Age.

Again a bit of nudging of boxes and arrows will take place before the final version, but this is close enough. Let me know if you have any Icon suggestions again, Thamis.

Isak
Aug 14, 2002, 01:02 PM
Still working on the remaining 2 tech screens, but got a bit tied up in work, so I may not have them ready until some time early next week.

Do you want me to release a patch with the 2 first era's or is it better to wait and just get the whole package later?

Thomas_Davie
Aug 14, 2002, 08:29 PM
I'll wait, although I can't speak for others.

Thanks again.

Tom

thamis
Aug 15, 2002, 03:00 AM
I prefer a full patch. Then I think we should call this MOD version 1.0 and I'll put it into an InstallShield.

thamis
Aug 15, 2002, 03:09 AM
Hey guys, you can rate this thread... If y'all love it so much, tell the world! ;)

Isak
Aug 15, 2002, 03:23 AM
I already rated it :jesus:

I guess I'm the other guy :D

thamis
Aug 15, 2002, 03:37 AM
Thx, dude! <g>

WiSe
Aug 18, 2002, 07:07 AM
I dont feel like reading throu all this thread, so I will just ask
Does this mod work? I have tried alot of mods and they almost always crash my game...and that my friends is not fun at all, so before I download are there any problems.

thamis
Aug 18, 2002, 07:34 AM
I suggest you subscribe for this thread and wait for the next update later this week. Then everything will be great.

Thomas_Davie
Aug 18, 2002, 08:52 AM
Mind you, this is on a completelt unmodded version 1.29 Civ 3

As of now, you must

a) Install 0.3.5
b) Install the 0.3.6 update
c) Install the 1.29 patch

An ancient mediterranean folder should be created in your Civ 3 folder for the 0.3.5 version, and then subseuqnet patches/updates go into this folder and overwrite files already there. You start the game by double clicking on the play.bat file in this subfolder. It takes care of backing up and restirong files so your Civ 3 is unmodded after finishing a game.

I'll issue a disclaimer though by stating I haven't played more than a few turns of the game because I can't stand to look at the as of yet (but very soon finished) incomplete tech screens.

Tom

thamis
Aug 18, 2002, 03:10 PM
Hey, just a question in advance:

I'm going to bundle the MOD in a InstallShield file. Is anyone able to do the same for the Mac?

thamis
Aug 19, 2002, 05:21 AM
Questions for the next update:

Should I use more generic unit names (i.e. "Elite Cavalry" instead of "Hetairoi Cavalry")? This way the unit can be used as a UU for more than one civilization (in this example it would be Macedonia, Lydia and Iberia).

Mac users out there: Is there anyone who could write the play.bat to work with the Mac? Can anyone make an Installer for the Mac?

Justus II
Aug 19, 2002, 09:43 PM
This may already have been discussed elsewhere, but I noticed a problem with my own scenario that I also had with this mod before, and I think I have found a solution. While playing this mod, when I first got a great leader, I had an error showing a missing file, and it dropped me out of Civ. I thought it was a graphics glitch and never thought much about it. However, I have had people playing my scenario get the same error, and I did not include any graphics files. I think I have figured out the problem, and it may help you as well. Civ has seperate unit art folders for leaders (and armies) of each era. When you rename the eras, it doesn't know where to find the leader graphics. However, it then defaults to a "generic" LEADER folder and .ini file. I copied the middle ages Leader and Army folders, renamed the .ini files without the era, and it seems to work fine. If you have noticed this problem, I have uploaded these folders as a zip file to the server, if you want to include them with your release version. You could do the same, or even create new ones for each era if you want, but make sure if you do you have one named exactly the same as each era. Here is the link to the zip file:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads/Leader_Army.zip

Justus II
Aug 19, 2002, 09:44 PM
BTW:
Isak, did you create the tech arrows yourself, or did you find a way for the program to recognize the links? I couldn't find a way to have them created automatically, those look great.

Isak
Aug 20, 2002, 01:04 AM
Justus: Thanks, I created them myself - if you look in the Art/Advisor folder there are some files called "Science_Ancient.pcx", "Science_Middle.pcx", etc.. - those are the ones I have modified and then I have to set the coordinates for each tech-box in the BIC.

If you want to try it yourself, check out this guide by Kal-El (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=21058). That's what got me started.

And thanks for the Leaderhead tip btw. That is very good to know :goodjob:

Edit: I mean Leader - not Leaderhead. :crazyeye:

thamis
Aug 20, 2002, 02:04 AM
I'll include the leaders in the next update. I haven't had a leader yet, so I have no idea if there's anything wrong. <g>

Vivojack
Aug 20, 2002, 07:34 AM
Originally posted by thamis
Questions for the next update:

Should I use more generic unit names (i.e. "Elite Cavalry" instead of "Hetairoi Cavalry")? This way the unit can be used as a UU for more than one civilization (in this example it would be Macedonia, Lydia and Iberia).

I would use the more generic names, but in the civilopedia entries, if and when you have a chance to do them, you can make reference to the unit they are based on. This will also help us more "historically correct name" challanged individuals to know what the heck the unit is before we build it :crazyeye:

Thanks,

Vivo

PS Great mod!

thamis
Aug 20, 2002, 08:48 AM
Good idea, yea.

Seabass
Aug 20, 2002, 03:13 PM
Great MOD. I can't wait for the next patch.
Now for my bug submission:
I have noticed that when I try and retire my game I get an error about the pediaicons.txt file having errors. To test this just start a new game as the iberians or whomever and go thru one turn and then retire. This is the only real bug I have noticed.
Most MODs are so screwy they crash all the time.

Keep up the good work.

Isak
Aug 20, 2002, 04:25 PM
@Seabass: Yeah, that's right - if you need any help fixing this Thamis, let me know, I'm already knee-deep in the Pediaicons.txt :)

And now for something completely different - the preview of the Imperial Age:

Again, give me your icon suggestions, and I will swap those ugly looking Alphabet icons for anything you like.

GIDustin
Aug 20, 2002, 05:52 PM
Isak:

You cannot work on two mods at once. It is against some rule not made yet, but will be :p

Actually, the two mods you are working on are the two I want to see completely finished.

Keep up the good work.

GIDustin

thamis
Aug 21, 2002, 04:06 AM
Isak:

Why are there two catapults in "Greek Fire"?

Icons:
You could take the Monotheism Icon for Religious Code.
Republic Icon for Imperialism.
Espionage has an Icon in the real game.
Map Making Icon for Exploration.

I'm not sure how much of a hassle it will be to add more icons to the tech tree, but I'm thinking about changing and adding some units:

- Kryten's Macedonian Phalanx as the "Phalanx" unit. This would not affect the science advisor.
- Change the current Phalanx (by JimmyH) to "Praetorian Guard", new Roman UU (take away the support troops), available with Republic or Imperialism (imperialism is better, but kinda late, don't you think?). This would affect the science advisor.
- JimmyH's Woad Rider as new graphic for Raider. (no sa change)
- Add Nahuixtelotzin's African Spearman as Spearman flavour unit for Carthage, Egypt and Kush. (no sa change)
- Add Ballista as Roman flavour units, comes with Ballistics. (might be a sa change)

I'm sure I can find more... but how the heck can you set the Icons in the 1.29f editor?!?

Seabass:
I think I know what the error in Pediaicons.txt is, but I'm not the person with much time at the moment. :-(
Still, this isn't a very bad bug I think (it's just when you want to end the game anyway <g>). Thus, Isak, finish the tech tree first, then work on it if nobody else (like me) has.

Isak
Aug 21, 2002, 05:19 AM
Thamis:

All the Icons for the units and improvements are handled by the program, so if there are two catapult icons, it's because there are two units made available by "Greek Fire" that use this icon.

If you think there shouldn't be, I'll check out what the extra unit is - I'm not at home now, but once I get back from work, I'll take a look.

And no need to worry about adding or changing stuff - I'm already prepared for that, so just throw in or change whatever you like - I'll redo the Advisor screens if necessary. And I'll look into the Retire bug too, no problem.

GIDustin: Oh no! You caught me :D

Isak
Aug 21, 2002, 05:23 AM
Originally posted by thamis
Isak:

I'm sure I can find more... but how the heck can you set the Icons in the 1.29f editor?!?Sorry - forgot to answer this.

For units you should still set the icons in the Editor, with the Icon selector, which reads from Units_32.pcx

Improvements and Governments need to have paths in the Pediaicons.txt.

Edit:Doh! - of course you mean the icons in the Tech Advisor screens - those are all taken from the Pediaicons.txt, including the ones for units.

Isak
Aug 21, 2002, 04:13 PM
Figured out the 2xCatapult icon thing - the other one is the "Greek Fire" Unit, for which I couldn't find a civilopedia icon when I made the 1.29f patch, so I just used the Catapult icon to fill in.

I'm no great big graphics artist, but I'll try and convert a few of the units that are in the Units_32 and see if they can also be used for the Civilopedia (and thus for the Tech Screens) - if not, it's a good thing that GIDustin is hot on this mod too, isn't it :D

Here's the last age - the Migration Age. Please note that I have an arrow going from Nationalism to United Defense even though the BIC doesn't indicate any requirement - I just went by the Era Preview's you posted earlier, Thamis. Let me know if I should correct the Tech Screen or the BIC.

Now will someone please answer this or I will soon earn myself a 3-day ban for vertical spamming ;)

Isak
Aug 21, 2002, 04:16 PM
I just seem to keep forgetting that previewing a message will remove the attachment....

Well, see y'all in 3 days... :rolleyes:

Thomas_Davie
Aug 21, 2002, 08:31 PM
I'm looking forward to being able to playing this one again and assuming a complete hegemony over the Mediterranean.


thanks *MUCHLY* to everyone involved .

Tom

GIDustin
Aug 21, 2002, 09:13 PM
Originally posted by Isak

I'm no great big graphics artist, but I'll try and convert a few of the units that are in the Units_32 and see if they can also be used for the Civilopedia (and thus for the Tech Screens) - if not, it's a good thing that GIDustin is hot on this mod too, isn't it :D


What do you mean by that? :)

GIDustin

thamis
Aug 22, 2002, 03:56 AM
Isak:

Yea, please correct the BIC. I probably just forgot it.

Icons:
Nationalism has an icon in the game.
You can take the currency icon for Decadence, I think.
The "Chivalry Shield" for United Defence is fine for me, too.

Isak
Aug 22, 2002, 04:47 AM
Originally posted by GIDustin


What do you mean by that? :) Oh, I just thought I remembered something from a different thread about making a selection of new tech icons available at your website :cool:

Thamis: Ok, I'll start right away and hopefully finish some time tonight - do you want me to send the patch to you, or should I modify the Play.bat as well and just upload it? I'm asking because I really haven't looked much at the play.bat yet, so I'm not 100% sure I can update it, but I'll give it a shot if you like.

thamis
Aug 22, 2002, 05:00 AM
No, please send the update to me (jan.vandercrabben@web.de). I'll do the play.bat. It doesn't need any changes as long as no new files have been added. So if you added anything, just tell me which files you added.

Then I'll create a Setup program that installs it with all the sub-directories (will only work for Windows users). I'll also post a ZIP for those who like doing things by hand and those fortunate ones who own a Mac.

Again: Is there anyone here who's able to create a setup program for the MAC?

Isak, again thanks a lot for doing all this work!

Verence
Aug 23, 2002, 05:41 PM
Just a small correction to an early post.
Viriato was Lusitan or Lusitano if you will
and if you were to trace his people to our days he would be portuguese, not spanish.

thamis
Aug 24, 2002, 05:25 AM
Verence:

Well, we the Celtiberians Spanish, anyway? ;-)
Isn't the gothic reign in Toledo and the Moorish reign in Sevilla shape Spain more than the celtiberians did?

Still, thanks for the correction. We are just working on adding the leaderheads, so if you have a good picture of him, send it to me or Isak. The one we have now sucks. :-(

Seabass
Aug 27, 2002, 09:27 AM
Have you considered marine skilled units for all civs? The problem I have run into is civs building cities on those one square islands. I have no way to attack them. My other suggestion to aid in attacking these would be to have the fire galleys be able to bombard cities. One easy work around would be to make all islands at least 2 squares and hope they keep all units inside the city.

I can't wait for the new update!

sapon
Aug 27, 2002, 02:45 PM
Is there a list of all the city Improvements and what they do or thier equivilents? Thanks

I also noticed that the Hun's have a modern city graphic in the migration era.

I'm not sure if this is just something I'm missing as I've never played against alot of civs but I cannot access certain civ's in the diplomacy screen. Thier heads do not appear. Furthermore the heads have modern graphics once they enter the migration era.

thamis
Aug 28, 2002, 04:08 AM
No, there's no list yet. I'll make one - no problem.

I forgot that the Huns have asian city graphics and I never changed them. Oops. Will be no issue in the next update.

There'll be an all-new set of leaderheads in our next update.

If you have more than n civ's (don't know the exact number) you can't see them all. Firaxis did something about it in the last patch, I don't know. There's a small button somewhere or something like that. Because I had a slow computer before I never played with more than 8 civs either.

thamis
Aug 28, 2002, 04:10 AM
Communication Trading

Don't you think that communication trading was a cool thing in SMAC but is totally unrealistic in CIV? I mean, in the ancient times you actually had to go discover the civ to have any relations, you couldn't just ring them up!

I'm thinking of removing communication trading in this mod. What do you think?

Copernicus
Aug 28, 2002, 07:22 AM
I think that disabling communication trading is a great idea - I had no idea you could even do that. This could have a huge impact on the game, slowing tech trading, luxury trading, etc. It would open up new strategies - like preventing your hated enemies the Romans from having access to the scientific advances of the Babylonians...

Unfortunately, I don't think there's a way to be a middle man with luxuries. Historically, controlling trade routes was a way for an otherwise weak nation to become powerful (e.g., Venice). If you could trade/purchase extra luxuries from a civ, then you could resell them to other civs...etc etc. Now that I think about it, that would be a fun feature.

Anyway, I'm excited about this mod, and I think your idea is a great one - I may start a game tonight and disable communication trading just to see what happens.

sapon
Aug 28, 2002, 03:15 PM
Thamis, your right ancient civ's didn't have fast access to technologies from other civ's unless they were in direct contact. However, there was significant trade among the ancient civs and they traded knowledge as well. I remember reading about maritime warfare and how the Romans used Carthaginian and Grecian ships as models since they had no naval warfare technology in the beginning. Furthermore I don't think each civilization always or even mostly independently developed it's technologies, but emulated what their people saw while trading and even studying in other civ's.

That said, I do think it's unrealistic for say Celtic tribes in Britain to learn masonry from the Egyptians in one game turn. I wish there was a way to allow tech trades only with civ's you border or set some timer so it would take x turns before the tech was tradable. I have no idea if this is possible though.

Keep up the great work.

thamis
Aug 28, 2002, 03:45 PM
Well, if you can't trade communication, then you can only trade one to one (at least in the early ages). You have to discover every civ yourself before you can trade. Therefore, Egypt can only trade with Carthage, Babylon, Phoenicia (etc), unless it either built a ship and sailed to Europe or took the long route over the Caucasian Mts.

Ad Hominem
Aug 29, 2002, 04:35 AM
Great idea, folks. In an ancient mod, disabling instant spread of tech via communication, is a must-have.

btw Thamis, when is the next update up? I really like it so far, but I would like to see what our feedback (and your creativity) has brought up in the last days.

You are doing a great job so far, keep it up :goodjob:

thamis
Aug 29, 2002, 04:48 AM
Ahh... Ad Hominem! Has been a while since I heard from you!

Isak & me are working hard on this update.

If anyone wants to play-test it, send me an eMail. Please only do so if you know what you're doing. I'm not going to support play-testing. Also expect some bugs. I think we'll send out the first (untested) version within the next 3 days.

Copernicus
Aug 29, 2002, 07:10 AM
Someone in another forum had an interesting idea a few months ago. (Unfortunately, I don't remember who, but let this be their due credit.) Their idea was to make settlers wheeled. For an ancient mod, I think this would be a great addition. Mountains and Jungles would become the geographic boundaries that they were historically. The extra time it would take to settle across jungles or mountains would be simulated by the necessity of constructing a road first.

What I really like about it is that it gives the scenario designer the ability to control the AIs and to provide varied starting positions for humans. For instance, it would be fun to play from a small, hemmed in resource-rich area, and then to play again from a large resource-poor area.

thamis
Aug 29, 2002, 07:37 AM
Hmm... interesting idea.

But, looking at the geography of this MOD, wouldn't it be too drastic? I mean, this would mean that it is impossible for Asia & Africa to settle in Europe at all... Well, actually, good idea! In my games I always had the problem that Babylon was f***ing strong because they settled into the vast areas north of the Caucasian Mts. (or is it Caucasus in English?). Yea, I'll do that.

thamis
Aug 29, 2002, 07:40 AM
Newsletter

If you're interested in getting a newsletter on new updates of this MOD, send an eMail to me.

Lares
Aug 30, 2002, 02:39 AM
Perhaps you could alter the map leaving some passes open in the mountain regions. This should give the game even more strategic possibilities. Think of an early conquest of this strategic spots by any minor asian civ, stopping "peaceful" Babylonian and Persian advance into this region.

thamis
Aug 30, 2002, 03:02 AM
Hmm... interesting idea! I'll do that.

realn
Aug 30, 2002, 04:30 PM
Man thamis you got a pretty big file going here! Im going to test this out after downloading it. And just to tell you, I have been away helping Exsanguination and Kryten on there Alexander the Great Scenario. It is going to rock and something to let you know is that Kryten is creating some very good ships! I dont know what is going on but I know between him and Smoking mirror one of them is going to finish them. So you would have so far these water units...
-Coracle (you have)
-Rowboat (you have)
-Bireme (new)
-Galley (comes with the game)
-Trimeme (new)
-Quetireme (new)
-Merchant (new)
http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?s=&postid=455195 (pictures(quick))

Now you have pretty much a good naval force when their done. They all are just imitations of the Galley but there pretty good. Look forward to it. Please consider my notice.
_________________

Your making an Important Mod/Scenario and you would want a website done for you? Ask me! realn

thamis
Aug 31, 2002, 02:41 AM
Realn:

I'm in contact with Kryten as well and follow every single step of his unit creation. :-) And I'm using many of his units by now and I will do so in the future. He's just the best for ancient units!

sapon
Aug 31, 2002, 01:34 PM
Thamis,

I misunderstood your idea about no communication trading to be no trading period. I think disabling contact trades and disallowing settlers to move over mountainous or jungle terrain are excellent ideas. Perhaps even a unique unit settler would be able to penetrate these obsticles, or would that be too unbalancing?

Regards

thamis
Aug 31, 2002, 03:22 PM
Well, what civ would have this UU, you think? I can't think of any reasonable civ...

sapon
Sep 01, 2002, 03:41 AM
Thamis,

Well, I think it would make sense to allow the northern tribes such as the Scithians and Huns this unit. This would allow for the historical pressures that these civ's put on neighboring civs by expansion. This would make either a deadly civ though if unchallenged in the north. Again this might be to imbalancing. I'll play test it with one of those civ's and let you know if it works out.

thamis
Sep 01, 2002, 03:58 AM
Well, the northern CIVs don't have to cross any mountains to put pressure on the mediterranean CIVs. I thought of the Goths, too, but they just don't need it.

realn
Sep 01, 2002, 01:36 PM
He's just the best for ancient units!

Exactly.

realn
Sep 01, 2002, 01:36 PM
He's just the best for ancient units!

Exactly.

sapon
Sep 01, 2002, 03:24 PM
Thamis,

Upon examining the map it appears that wheeled settlers wouldn't have much of an impact at all in gameplay. The only area it would affect is the Hun/Scithian border with the middle east.

Thomas_Davie
Sep 01, 2002, 06:25 PM
When playing as the Romans, shouldn't the leader name be Octavian, rather than Augustus? Augustus is a title, and not a name.


Thanks again, for all your hard work and looking forward to the final version.

Tom

(a good link is http://www.roman-emperors.org/auggie.htm)

Seabass
Sep 02, 2002, 11:16 AM
While we are nit picking hehe

I disagree with the history of the Macedonian Greeks. I don't believe Alexander was a drunk. He may have had wine at times but no more than anyone else at the time. Most of Alexanders bad press stems from Cassander who forbade all publications which praised Alexander and Imprisoned and poisoned Alexanders wife and Alex IV.

Just my brief opinion.
Suggested reading: Alexander the Great and His Time. Savill

thamis
Sep 02, 2002, 11:50 AM
Where did anyone say Alexander was a drunk?

Seabass
Sep 02, 2002, 12:15 PM
He would die in 323 BC
of a serious sickness in Babylon (this is debated, some argue he was poisoned or even relate it to his later habitual
drunkenness.

Thats copied from the Macedonian Greek civ description. I Don't believe he was a habitual drunk.

sapon
Sep 02, 2002, 12:59 PM
Is it intended that when you build a city on a resource that the city square does not benefit from that resource? For example I've built cities on wheat and cattle and have not benefitted from the extra food production. Furthermore it doesn't seem that the city square automatically irrigates as simple grassland only produces 2 food in my cities. However they produce extra shields, for example a plains will produce 2 food and 3 shields, what is going on? A grassland will produce 2 food and 2 or 3 shields depending on the bonus resource. The wheat and cattle don't seem to factor into either production of food or shields though. Anyone notice this?

On a seperate note, pollution at the later stages of the game can get out of hand. Perhaps a sewer system should be put in to reduce population pollution.

Regards

thamis
Sep 02, 2002, 01:59 PM
Seabass:

OIC. The civilopedia entry is done by Exsanguination. Feel free to rewrite it if you think you can do better. :-)

Sapon:
This is a setting that can be changed in the editor. I took the default settings from 1.21f. There it says "maximum number of food produced in a city square = 2" (or sth like that). I never noticed it to be an issue, I thought it is a standard setting.

Did you not experience it in normal civ games? I can change it, no problem.

Isak
Sep 02, 2002, 02:18 PM
Originally posted by thamis
Did you not experience it in normal civ games? I can change it, no problem. Actually, you can't - with 1.29f, Firaxis made it so the center tile of a city always produces exactly the amount needed to support one citizen. So the only way to change it, would be to make citizens consume more/less food, I'm afraid.

sapon
Sep 02, 2002, 02:40 PM
Wow, that sucks, city tiles are real handicaps now, I'll have to watch where I place my cities from now on. Thanks for the reply btw.

Any thoughts on reducing pollution due to population fellas? I was thinking sewer system but can it just be tweaked so people don't produce as much pollution? Historically sewer systems were vital in keeping large cities clean and allowing for healthy populations.

Isak
Sep 02, 2002, 03:23 PM
Originally posted by sapon
Wow, that sucks, city tiles are real handicaps now, I'll have to watch where I place my cities from now on. Thanks for the reply btw.Actually, it was a step forward - before 1.29f, the center tile always produced 2 food regardless of how much each citizen consumed - now that sucked :) - If you've seen cities with more than two food from the center tile before, I think the only possible explanation is that settling on a resource will affect the food produced. Not sure about that though, and too busy to test right now.

Lares
Sep 04, 2002, 03:15 AM
I started platesting the new version yesterday. It seems that some bugs are still in it. The game quites if a peltast is build by any civ. I think the graphics and the ini-file for this unit aren't included in any of your updates, thamis. Also the African Spearman has intransparent blue shadows instead of just darkening the background. But this is probably a problem with the unit graphics ...

Playing the romans on the original map is real fun. You have to get on the Etrurians quick or they will be really anoying! One tip: think of including Snoopys terrain mod. The combination of the ancient med mod and snoopys terrain is wonderful.

thamis
Sep 04, 2002, 04:14 AM
Peltast:

The Peltast Graphics are not included in any update, correct. I checked on that. :(

They are, however included in every full version of the game! :)

African Speaman:

Okay, not my fault. :-) I'm sure someone else has noticed so far and there's a new version of the unit. I'll check on that.

sapon
Sep 05, 2002, 01:49 PM
Has anyone noticed that contacted Civ's sometimes are not added to the diplomacy circle? This seems to only happen when I'm playing against 16 Civ's but I could be wrong.

Also several leader heads do not appear in the diplomacy screen like they should, for example Carthage has a question mark with the leaders name above it. It is functional to contact the Civ though. Any thoughts on this?

I've attached the save file for your viewing pleasure

Regards

thamis
Sep 05, 2002, 02:43 PM
The missing leaderheads should be fixed with the latest update?

Justus II
Sep 05, 2002, 03:51 PM
Also, if you shift-rightclick on a blank leaderhead, you will get the option to choose a different civ, and can click on the new civ.
I was able to add civs I had contacted that way.

Exsanguination
Sep 06, 2002, 12:41 PM
Originally posted by thamis
Seabass:

OIC. The civilopedia entry is done by Exsanguination. Feel free to rewrite it if you think you can do better. :-)


Hey! Now we're getting personal here! Did I really write that? I'm guessing its from the Macedon-civ mod I made ages ago.

Originally posted by Seabass
He would die in 323 BC
of a serious sickness in Babylon (this is debated, some argue he was poisoned or even relate it to his later habitual
drunkenness.

That should be reworded to say "or even related to his habitual drinking". Hewas a heavy drinker, no argument there. But what is controversial is how some historians believe he was just that, a drunk megalomaniac, which I emphatically believe he wasn't. I made that mod a little prematurely I admit, I didn't know much then.

BTW, Seabass, "Alexander the Great and His Time by Agnes Savill": :goodjob: EXCELLENT read. I've got it covered, bound, and all! I'm currently reading Politics (Aristotle), but I'm going to be reading Arrian's history and Curtius' history soon. Look like good reads themselves.

Sorry to interrupt Thamis. Just wanted to clear things up. And to be honest, I would like that civilopedia entry changed (if not too much trouble). I'm kicking myself for ever writing that.

EDIT: Ooh, ooh. I'm definetely gonna have to try out this mod when I get home. But I noticed a big big booboo :lol:. One of the Macedonian (and I think it should be Macedonians, NOT Macedonian Greeks :)) UUs is the Peltast. The Peltast was a Thracian unit and was only used by Alexander as mercenaries from Thrace. If you're gunning at accuracy, that UU is false.

Regardless, I find it surprising that you neglected the Phalangite (esp now that Kryten has posted a beautiful animation for it). The Phalangite was a formidable defender and capable of traversing any terrain (unlike the Hoplites). It was the backbone of the Macedonian army from Philip to after Alexander. I'm not sure what you've done with unit stats so I can't reccomend any just yet.

Expect to see me here more often, this mod has suddenly striken a huge interest with me. If you'd like, I could essentially lay out the Macedonian civ for you, I doubt there is much I don't know about them (esp during Alex's time). I'm obsessed with Greek and Macedonian history :).

--Ex

sapon
Sep 06, 2002, 02:47 PM
I've noticed that the Peltast is used by several civ's, Iberians, Dacians and the Mecedonian Greeks. There might be more but that's all I've noticed. How do the Peltasts pertain to the Celtic Iberian civ? They are very powerful early in the game so I hope they are kept to a minimum hehe.

Also is it possible to get a generic hore/cavalry unit for every civ put in? I enjoy playing the Romans but they lack any fast cavalry units after the quickly obsolete chariot unit.

Thanks for the time guys.

Regards

thamis
Sep 06, 2002, 04:19 PM
Exsanguination:

I can change your entry, no problem.

The Macedonian Greeks (or Macedonians) as well as many other civs will have totally different UUs in the next update. This update is complete, but not posted yet. It's not tested.

I am aiming for PtW compatibility. I am also trying to get rid of all copyright-violating units (all of JimmyH's units, that is).

The Peltast will no longer be a Macedonian UU. Here's a short list of changes:

thamis
Sep 06, 2002, 04:23 PM
UUs:

Rome: Legion, Praetorian Guard
Egypt: War Chariot, Libyan Mercenary
Greece: Hoplite, Coracle
Babylon: Bowman, Arab Horseman
Germanic Tribes: Knight, Berserk
Goths: Knight, Berserk
Minoans: Elite Bowman, Coracle
Iberia: Knight, Peltast
Huns: Hun Raider, Horse Archer
Gaul: Knight, Gallic Swordsman
Persia: Immortals, Arab Horseman
Scythians: Horse Archer, Raider
Carthage: War Elephant, Libyan Mercenary
Brittons: Coracle, Raider
Dacia: Peltast, Horse Archer
Macedonian Greeks: Hetairoi Cavalry, Hoplite
Phoenicia: Coracle, Merchantman
Lydia: Hetairoi Cavalry, Arab Horseman
Hittites: Hittite Infantry, War Chariot
Troy: Hoplite, War Chariot
Kush: Bowman, Elite Bowman
Etruria: Merchantman, Peltast

thamis
Sep 06, 2002, 04:26 PM
A few clarifications:

The Phalangite is now used for the Phalanx animation. The former Phalanx animation is used for the Praetorian Guard.

Raider, Gallic Swordsman, Libyan Mercenary, Hun Raider have placeholder graphics for now (similar unit graphics).

The Peltast unit stands for the typical auxiliary troop that the Romans used. Thus it has the name of the Thracian unit, but stands for a more generalized type of unit. So does the Hetairoi Cavalry and the Arab Horseman.

I'd love to put in one more riding unit, but I'm missing animations here. I prefer not to have too many units that look the same.

I'm also waiting for Kryten's ships! Just two (three) types of ships isn't what I want...

thamis
Sep 06, 2002, 04:27 PM
Oh, and don't expect too many updates after the next one until PtW is out...

thamis
Sep 06, 2002, 04:36 PM
Exsanguination:

If you can have a look at the Macedonian (Greek) civ for us, that'd be great. Especially the city list is pretty small. I made it, having no idea about them. I just found a map on the internet, looked which one could be considered the capital and copied all other cities. ;)

Exsanguination
Sep 06, 2002, 09:00 PM
Shoot, I lost my new Macedonia Civ Mod.

Well here are some goodies:

Cities:
Aegai
Argos Orestikon
Stageira
Mieza
Edessa
Veroia
Pella
Aeani
Methoni
Dion
Kyrros
Ichnai
Liti
Thermai
Idomenai
Olynthos
Leivithra
Heracleion
Poteidaia
Kalindoia
Arethousa
Arethousa
Argilos
Amphipolis
Galipsos
Thasos
Chalkis
Thessaloniki

Leaders:
Philip
Ptolemy
Hephaestion
Nearchus
Cleitus the Black
Antipater
Craterus
Perdiccas
Coenus
Parmenion
Seleucus
Leonnatus
Eumenes
Philotas

Title: Captain-General Alexander (or King)
Civ Color: Red or Dark Red

And please, please don't call the Macedonian UU a hoplite! :crazyeye:

btw, I just d/led the mod (took several hrs) and it looks great. But all the techs were screwed so I couldn't get very far... all the standard civ3 techs were in their repective positions, but all the new ones were stuck in a corner. Not sure why...

--Ex

thamis
Sep 07, 2002, 02:50 AM
Because you don't have the next update. :)

Here's version 0.4.2:

http://www.creative-hu.de/public/update_0.4.2.exe
(12.4 MB)

It's not tested, that's why I haven't placed it onto the main page yet.

This update fixes the Galley bug and restores your old galley as well. It also includes the Macedonia updates by Exsanguination and "that sentence" isn't in the Macedonian civilopedia text anymore.

leon236
Sep 07, 2002, 05:14 AM
i would really like to see some pictures before i download it. its 12 mb and my computers running because a little mouse is running inside a wheel. so naturally, it'll take me hours before i can finish downloading it. do you think maybe you could post some leaderheads, wonders, units, era splashes, etc. for those of us who can't download things in a heartbeat?

thanx!:crazyeye:

thamis
Sep 07, 2002, 05:45 AM
You can find era splashes in this thread on some page. You can find leaderheads in a thread by me in the customization forum.

This MOD doesn't change many graphics, so screenshots won't show you what it is like. The changes are in tech tree (graphics are in this thread as well), civilizations and units.

thamis
Sep 07, 2002, 05:49 AM
Oh, and it's not 12 MB but more like 22 MB. First install and update.

If you don't want to download that much, wait a little. This week I'll post a new full install, which will total to about 15 MB, I guess.

Lares
Sep 07, 2002, 12:47 PM
@leon236: This mod is worth some hours of download. In my opinion its simply the best mod for civIII up to now (well, the alexander the great mod is very promising, too).

@thamis:
1. You could change the colors of the Dacians and the Phoenicians, so the problem of two civs with similiar colors on the standard map is solved (Dacia/Etruria resp. Phoenicia/Lydia).

2. I think the peltast unit has too high ratings, its the best unit in the early phase of the game. And its only light (!) infantry. Consider to give it an attack rating of 3 instead of 4.

3. Don`t know, if you noticed it: Some of the leaderheads have colors shining through the picture, e.g. the Goths.

4. After playtesting two civs (Romans and Iberians), I think the Iberians are too easy and the Romans are to hard to play. Perhaps some change to the peltast stats will change this situation. Perhaps you could give the romans an aditional UU in the early phase of the game.

sapon
Sep 07, 2002, 05:30 PM
Heh,

Thamis: I have to agree with Lares, the Peltasts are just too powerful early in the game. Perhaps take out the extra movement or reduce the offence slightly to balance them out.

Lares: I've been playing the Romans frequently and havn't had much difficulty with the Iberians, Guals, Germans or Greeks. The only problem I have is that the Romans have no cavalry units ie Auxilliary cavalry. All there units are slow and underpowered until the late Imperial age. Perhaps move the Legion to the late Hellenistic age or earlier in the Imperial age. Rome started using the Legion tactics and formations during it's Republican stage which coincides somewhate with the late Hellenistic age.

thamis
Sep 08, 2002, 05:56 AM
Those changes will be included in the next update:
Please send feedback, if enough people agree with these points, I'll post the update.

Units:

- Praetorian Guard (A.D.M 1.5.1, 30 Shields)
comes with The Republic, which makes Roman cities very, very hard to get by until the late Imperial Age. That's very historical, because when the Migration Age started Rome was defeated.

- Legion (A.D.M 5.5.1, 60 Shields, Worker Jobs)
comes with Imperialism. It's a unit that's very hard to kill and is fairly good at defence. It's quite expensive and is not that good at attack, but can build fortesses and roads. (Well, and irrigation and all that other stuff that's really stupid for a military unit, but without the other actions the computer won't be able to use it.)

- Peltast (A.D.M 3.2.2, 40 Shields, Defensive Bombard)
It's not that great at attack anymore and the defensive bombard is now at a power of 3 as well. I think the 2 movement points make it really powerful, because it's hard to kill.

- Gallic Swordsman (A.D.M 4.4.2, 50 Shields)
I wonder if this unit is too strong as well. With defence 4 and 2 move it's almost impossible to kill for the normal Swordsman. Maybe I should give it defence 3? Then the total of points is less than those of the Longswordsman. But on the other hand, the Hetairoi Cavalry would be much better then. Maybe make it 60 Shields for both of the 2 movement units?

Colours:

- Macedonia
Dark orange. The former Phoenician colour. Exsanguination will like that! ;)

- Lydia
Baby blue. The former Macedonain colour.

- Phoenicia
Peach. The former Lydian colour.

Lares
Sep 08, 2002, 09:22 AM
I think the unit stats of the peltast are o.k. now, but the gallic swordsman is probably too strong. Defense 3 is quite much for an offensive unit. I like the other suggestions, but the color Problems concerning the Etrurians and Dacians is still there.

thamis
Sep 08, 2002, 01:36 PM
Well, the normal Longswordsman has A.D.M 5.3.1 (total of 9), the Hetairoi Cavalry has A.D.M 5.3.2 (total of 10) and the Gallic Swordsman has a total of 10, too.

I always made the values of the UUs total to one more than the standard unit.

Justus II
Sep 08, 2002, 10:22 PM
I like the worker abilities added to the Legion, that was an idea I was thinking about for my Roman scenario. But I would make the Legion available even earlier, before the Praetorian Guard (they were, after all, drawn from the legions initially). Maybe allow Legions with Republic and Praetorian Guard with Imperialism.

As for the Gallic swordsman, it will make them difficult to kill, especially since they can also retreat, but that might be OK, it would basically simulate them being 'pacified', but then rising up again once they regain their strength, in an area. City defense would be no better than a Phalanx.

Justus II
Sep 08, 2002, 10:28 PM
I have created a unit table based on the "civstats.xls" file by Nero Would, modified to show all units from this mod. It shows all units with the stats as per the editor of the most recent update, as well as upgrade paths and the required techs. Let me know if anyone sees any mistakes. This will hopefully make it easier to understand where each unit fits in the progression, and what they can do. It will also be very useful for people designing scenarios from this mod. I will try to also work on a similar table for Improvements/Wonders.

thamis
Sep 09, 2002, 03:05 PM
Version 1.0 is out. Check the first post.

Exsanguination
Sep 09, 2002, 04:27 PM
Originally posted by thamis
Colours:

- Macedonia
Dark orange. The former Phoenician colour. Exsanguination will like that! ;)

Dark Orange :lol:? I said DARK RED!!! Who is so much more important than the Macedonians that THEY deserve dark red? :lol: No biggy, dark orange is much better. Besides the hoplite and 'Greeks' part (;)) I like the new changes. I'll test it out sometime soon (first I have to d/l it on my slow 56k...).

--Ex

Justus II
Sep 09, 2002, 07:06 PM
Just noticed that in the version1.0 upgrade, the Ancient World scenario is set for only 8 players, not 16. It can be fixed in the editor (edit player properties), but should default to 16.

thamis
Sep 10, 2002, 02:56 AM
Uhh... damn. I knew I would forget something...

Where is Phoenatica, BTW?

thamis
Sep 10, 2002, 03:42 AM
Here's the Ancient World map for 16 civilizations.

danielhart
Sep 10, 2002, 04:10 AM
Hey, just saw your mod, and wanted to drop by and say great work. Also, I'd like to offer a few suggestions on your "Kush" civilization, as I'm.. yes, infatuated with that region.

Maybe change "Kush" to "Nubia", as Nubia comes from the old Egyptian word for gold, "Nub". Perhaps you should make the capital Meroe. This was one of the most important capitals in the country's history. Also, the UU is good, but I'd change it's name slightly to add a little more flavor to it. Since the main god of the Nubians was Amon, you could perhaps change the UU's name to "Amonite Bowman" or somesuch thing? Also, if you'd like, I could find you a more extensive city-list for them that's more accurate to the time period you're going for.


Just a few sugestions. Thanks for the hard work, your mod is great fun!

thamis
Sep 10, 2002, 04:46 AM
Danielhart:

Great suggestions, thanks. About the Bowman... I would have to make a new unit in order to give it that name. I try to keep the unit names a little more generic. But if you would want to write a civilopedia entry for the Elite Bowman, you could explain it a little better.

I'm not sure which one is better, Nubia or Kush. Nubia describes hte region and Kush describes the Kingdom, right?

If you could provide me with a better city list, please do so!

Justus II
Sep 10, 2002, 05:41 AM
Thamis,

Phoenatica was the name of our country from the Civ3 Demogame I, where Fox Nest was the capital. Need to update that, since Demogame I ended, and Demogame II has already been going for 2 weeks!