The trade department has outlined our possible trades here. (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=23431)

I propose we make the following two trades and implement them at the end of this poll tomorrow. This will allow us to take a better look at our wonder building program. (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=23425) By making these trades before the turn chat we will be better able to fix and appropriate tax/science/luxury rate and get our cities back into WLTKD.

The trades are:

India:
silks <-> ivory, 100 gold

Aztec:
democracy <-> Iron (bad), 2 luxuries
1gpt + 37

We need to get the Indian silk imports coming in again in order to get us back to the level of WLTKD we had before losing the silks.
Trading iron to the Aztecs is not dangerous since theyalready have iron within their borders. (We pillaged their min in the recent war.:D ) This trade is a cheap way to get democracy and the 37 gold will help to off-set the cost of the silk deal.
The remaining 63 gold for the silk will be paid as follows: 23 from the domestic department and 40 from the current funds to be allocated. This will leave 668 gold to allocate for the next turn chat.

Since there was no turn chat schedule posted on Sunday I'm assuming we are using the old schedule and turn chats will be on Weds. and Sunday. This poll will close about 12 hours before the Weds. turn chat to allow us to make the trades and post the new save is approved by this poll.

The poll will be open for 1 day.

I fully support making the luxury deal with India, but I wholly oppose the deal with the Aztecs. I don't think there is any need to switch our government to democracy anytime soon, so it is unimportant whether we get the democracy now or later. And to give the warlike Aztecs iron to make their army better is definately not a good idea.

I'm fully for both. Getting Democracy will allow us a bit closer to Free Artistry. Being an aspiring artist/politician, I will benenfit greatly from this knowledge.

We would also be closer to being able to construct a great Theatre for our Culture-rich nation. Why would we want anyone else to have this magnificent wonder?

Originally posted by chiefpaco
I'm fully for both. Getting Democracy will allow us a bit closer to Free Artistry. Being an aspiring artist/politician, I will benenfit greatly from this knowledge.

We would also be closer to being able to construct a great Theatre for our Culture-rich nation. Why would we want anyone else to have this magnificent wonder?

Iron and two luxuries is an awful lot to pay for a tech that doesn't directly benefit us, especially when we are giving military resources to an enemy. We should try to get it from someone else. Obviously, the Aztecs do not fully realize the value of iron.

I am against both.

Silks, Smilks, who needs it when you can get Gems forever! :D

The price for democracy is too high and I agree with eyrei that we don't need to swich our governemnt right now. Does the AI still devalue tech with the 1.21 patch? We should wait until democracy is cheaper and then grab Free artistry as soon as its available. As for propping up the Aztecs, it might not be a bad idea to help prevent a rapid Babylonian or Greek expansion with the immenant collapse of the Aztec empire.

The reason for acquiring democracy (as Chiefpaco) has pointed out is to get us closer to Shakespeare's Theatre not to change governments. We are leaning towards a culture victory and have a little wonder building dillema. Buying democracy straight up would cost 655 gold from India (the cheapest on the market.) BTW, Ghandi would sell metallurgy for 825 gold. To get democracy without gold we only have to give up economics. We have 3 incense, 2 spice, 3 ivory, 4 horse, 3 iron and 2 saltpeter sitting around doing nothing for us. Even with iron the Aztecs are no match for us.

Buying silks from India does not preclude trying to get the gems near Tlaxcala. Having both will only help us. Getting the silks now will help us get back to WLTKD now and will help us to keep our tax rate up which will generate gold which will allow us to rush projects under CAP.

I am for both trades.

I guess donsig's points have prevailed upon me.

I would like to change my vote from "no" to "yes"

However, could we grab the world map from the Aztecs? Maybe they have the map that shows where the English are. Perhaps buy the map from the Aztecs first for like 25 gold and then get it all back from them in the democracy trade.

I still feel that rushing a temple for 220 gold in tlaxtalca would be better than the deal with india but I know the extra luxury will benifit us greatly. And we'll instanlty get the WLTKD and I'm not sure what the guarantee is on the Gems. So I am for both.

Please forgive my rashness is an ill thought out vote. :)

We can get the Aztec's world map in the deal if we forego the 1 gold/turn payment from them. This is not a bad idea but I hesitate to change the proposed deal since votes have already been cast.

We can buy their map for 5 gold (maybe even less)!

If we have so many idle resources I fully support the trade deal with Aztecs. Good to see our resources worth 700 golds.........wonder if we can sell it for cash:D

Getting free artisry is very important right now. Those Magellan's were Copernicus's! In case we can't hold Smith's or Newton's, we can cascade to the Theatre.(touch wood)

I just thought of the line you included, Donsig:

Trading iron to the Aztecs is not dangerous since theyalready have iron within their borders. (We pillaged their min in the recent war. ) This trade is a cheap way to get democracy and the 37 gold will help to off-set the cost of the silk deal.

And I have to agree. We severed their iron link. They will likely re-connect soon. This will be a short opportunity to scam them. And rightly deserved, after the way they treated us! We're not giving them something they don't have. Just something we took away from them temporarily.

Please keep in mind that this poll question includes making these trades before the turn chat and reposting the save game.

If there are any objections to doing this please post them!

India & Iroquios are the only 2 civs which have contact with English so if we want to know where they are, we should be going for the WM of these 2 civs.

Skywind: wonder if we can sell it for cash

This is the best we can do in converting them to cash-equivalent.

Wondering why we aren't in favour of switching to democracy at the moment. We are at peace and being religious allows us to switch back easily if war begins again.

I support the idea of rushing culture for gems because it now costs us 657 gold to get it from Greece!!

we're not religious.

d'oh! I think I've been playing too much Iroquois. Even then, democracy would speed up our research & increase our cash flow.

but Democracy would kill us if we go to war and there is a chance we will have another WW. but democracy leads to free artistry and shakespere's theater. so I would like to get democracy from the aztecs.

P.S. I didn't read anyhting in the thread so don't toats me if this has been said.

The deals are good, Donsig. We need the silk and we need Free Artistry after Democracy. Then we need to switch to Democracy after the FP is completed.

Why did you post your proposal with a poll procedure? You're asking for two different opinions here. Is your 0- turn chat going to be logged? Who will be doing it? I take it as an official posted this poll it's a binding poll. Is this in conflict with the other poll procedure poll currently posted? We need to look at how we are writing these polls.

EDIT: I just saw citizen's poll in the heading, Donsig. sorry

Originally posted by Zur
d'oh! I think I've been playing too much Iroquois. Even then, democracy would speed up our research & increase our cash flow.

It wouldn't speed it up at all, the only difference it has is that it has lower corruption, which would still do little to effect this, and a higher worker rate. tHis worker rate would be near superfluous seeing as we are already industrious and would be useless when we discover replaceable parts. to add to this it has an increased war weariness rate, and surely we don't need that, when war is being talked about. We only need it for Free Artistry which would enable us to build Shakespeares Theater, which at 8 culture is enough to make anyone happy, especially members of the culture club (Justus will have to support me on it's usefullness)

So basically, curufinwe, the only down side you see is the war weariness. With the silks, diamonds, Wonders, city improvements, and a strong financial grasp, war weariness would be little to none. So that means it's all good, right?

But I also say that the only increase is unneccesary and would be of very little help

Greece also has an extensive world map of Greece that they are willing to offer.

Originally posted by Cyc
Why did you post your proposal with a poll procedure? You're asking for two different opinions here. Is your 0- turn chat going to be logged? Who will be doing it? I take it as an official posted this poll it's a binding poll. Is this in conflict with the other poll procedure poll currently posted? We need to look at how we are writing these polls.

EDIT: I just saw citizen's poll in the heading, Donsig. sorry

I wasn't really thinking about a turn 0 turn chat for this. If there were no objections I planned to do it myself in the morning (about 12 hours before the official turn chat). I would post it in the 5/26 turn chat thread and also just replace the save in the saved games thread.

It's short notice but since the trade would go into effect immediately I could better present info on what our tax/sci/lux rate should be which would help us to decide which wonders to try to build where. Without knowing what the tax rate will be I don't know what our expected income is over the next fiscal period and that has the current budget allocation process on hold!:(

Should we make it a permanent fixture to do some trades and stuff like that before the actual turn? No advance int he turns, just deals. It should save loads of time during the actual gameplay and we are getting into the longer turn era.

There is a discussion about a turn 0 turn chat. It is here. (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=23306)

OK, this poll has been up for 24 hours and is closed. The result is 13 yes and 2 no. The dissenting replies only said they were against the trades themselves not against doing them now if the poll favored it.

So I will do the trades now and post the new saves.

The trades were made as authorized by this poll.

The new save is in the Save Games thread (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=23480) and the May 26, turn chat save and report thread. (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=23391)