DP order this term, if I did everything right

donsig
Hyronymus
Dutchfire
DaveShack
Falcon02
Joe Harker

Game Play Session Scheduling Initiative

Any game play session must be publicly announced in the CivFanatics Civ4 - Democracy Game II forum at least 24 hours before the scheduled start of said game play session. Said announcement must include:
The date and time the game play session will start
The Designated Player for the session
A link to the sessions's game play instruction thread
The purpose of the game play session


Section 1
During each regular election cycle, a separate thread will be created during the nomination process for Designated Player (DP) Candidates. Any citizen that wishes to be a DP must declare so in a post in this thread. When the election polls are posted, a separate poll, in multi-choice format, listing each candidate will be posted. Citizens will vote their approval for a candidate by selecting their name.

A citizen may run for an elected office and apply to be a DP in the same term. The DP Pool does not count as an elected office.

Each candidate that receives a vote from more than 60% of the citizens that vote in the poll will be accepted as a DP for that term. The Election Office will put together a list of the Designated Players, ordered by the number of votes in support for that term. In the event of a tie, the order of posting in the nomination thread will be used. All DPs that actually ran a game session in the previous term will be put below those that did not, regardless of the number of votes. This list will determine the order that the DPs will be used for game sessions. If there are more game sessions than DPs, start again from the top of the list.

The DP Pool Manager is responsible for organizing the DP Pool, and tracking the schedule of DP's. Should the DP pool be empty, the DP Pool Manager is responsible for determining who will be the DP for each game session, using any citizen to serve as DP. The DP Manager may also post a poll requesting that DP be removed from the pool. This is a private poll, lasting 4 days. If more than 60% of citizen vote in favor of removal, the citizen is removed from the DP pool immediately.

Members of the DP pool may exchange places as they desire, so long as all citizens involved agree.

Citizen's Initiative - The Playing the Save Act of 4000 BC

Section 1 - Instructions

All official instructions must be posted in the current game session instruction thread. Instructions must be clear and defined. All sessions, including special sessions, must have an instruction thread.

Officials must post their instructions at least one hour before the scheduled start of the game session. Officials may make changes to their instructions up to an hour before the session, so long as those changes are clearly noted. Officials that do not post instructions for a game session are considered to have given the DP complete control over their area for that game session, even should they be at the game session.

Citizens may post instructions based on the results of completed initiatives. These instructions must be posted at least one hour before the scheduled start of the game session.

If an instruction thread has not been created for a scheduled game session when a citizen is ready to post instructions, that citizen may create a instruction thread for that session.

Section 2 - Playing

The DP for each game session, including special sessions, must maintain a log of their actions in sufficient detail that another citizen may generally recreate their actions.

During a game session, citizens are encouraged to comment and offer advice to the DP. The DP may also seek comments from citizens. The DP is not required to do so, and is not required in any way to follow any such advice.

The game session may last for as long as there are relevant instructions, until a posted instruction says to halt the session or when the DP decides to end the session. Once a game session is over, the DP must post a summary of that session, a detailed log of their actions, and a save in the instruction thread and in the summary thread.

I'm thinking of adding this rule as DP pool manager:
"If the DP doesn't show up within 1 hour of the scheduled start of the session and hasn't posted anything about his absence, any other member of the DP pool can pick up the save and play it according to the instructions. This DP has to post in the TCIT at least 1 hour before starting play though. This session will count as a session by the original DP for the play order."

I was going to say can i go near the end, bit of a hectic month ahead, plus holidays :)!, but i am last so it's ok!

Wow, I'm first! Looks like there was a one turn session on the 29th. That was the last one and also the last one of the term? What would be a good target for the first session of the new term?


I'm thinking of adding this rule as DP pool manager:
"If the DP doesn't show up within 1 hour of the scheduled start of the session and hasn't posted anything about his absence, any other member of the DP pool can pick up the save and play it according to the instructions. This DP has to post in the TCIT at least 1 hour before starting play though. This session will count as a session by the original DP for the play order."

This would apply only to online sessions, correct? If not, then how does one show up for an off line session?

I don't think it should count as the original DP's session. The idea should not be to punish the scheduled DP. Throwing them to the end of the line effectively means they lose their chance to play for the whole month, since we have more planned DPs than likely opportunities.

A DP could post "playing in 1 hour" even for an offline session, no?

There don't seem to be any contentious issues in the game that haven't already been polled, so I'd ask that the next session be scheduled with just enough delay for the new officials to do their instructions.

I'm going to be away from civ from 8/10 thru 8/17.

There don't seem to be any contentious issues in the game that haven't already been polled, so I'd ask that the next session be scheduled with just enough delay for the new officials to do their instructions.

How soon after the scheduled time would you like it to actually be played? No need to give your answer in picoseconds. Days will do.

Yes, how soon, give us an answer now, do not ignore the citizen input.

Hmm, that's an interesting question.

I'd trust you to adapt the scheduled time to your RL schedule. I'd trust you to ask for a swap or skip if you felt an unreasonable delay would result. I'd be concerned for you if it went more than a day without any indication of progress, and I'd look to citizen input on what we should do if it continued to go longer.

do not ignore the citizen input.

:confused: I'm afraid I don't understand this at all. :crazyeye:

Instructions must be posted until 1 hour before the session's begin.
So, a 24 hours notice looks enough to me.
Best regards,

:confused: I'm afraid I don't understand this at all. :crazyeye:

This may be a "long shot", but everyone needs to "bow" to citizen input.

I see three issues of contention here...

A.) How long after the scheduled time does the DP have to actually play the save before another citizen can take over?

ie. Turnchat (online session) scheduled for July 27th at 1800 GMT, if the DP fails to show up can another DP in attendance play the session at 1900 GMT instead? Should this be allowed? and if so how much time should the original DP be given to start the session.

One issue with this I have though, is what if the original DP is unable to get access to the internet for a planned online session, so instead does an offline session (as far as I know there is nothing to legally prevent this). Then we have 2 different saves that were played, one from the original DP in an offline session, and another one by another DP who played their own version in an online session.


B.) Should the above "time" rule apply to Offline sessions as well?

Some have proposed a sort of 1 hour forum notification to allow it to apply, however that sorta ignores the reasons why someone would do an offline session. Sometimes you don't have internet access 1 hour before the session is played, and only have access for a short period after you actually have time to play it, thus requiring the offline session.

C.) Should the DP be Punished if he fails to show up in time (as described in A)

Should the original DP be pushed to the back of the priority list, essentially taking away their chance to play for the month? Or should their priority remain the same and they'll be able to play the next session.

What about the DP that took over for the original DP, and actually played the save? Should they maintain their priority? Should the session they took over count as one of their sessions, thus moving them to the back of the priority list.





If Online sessions were required, this would be a little easier to apply. We used to do something simular Civ 3 DGI and II when we had a chain of command system and online sessions were assumed. However, we shouldn't require online sessions if we're going to give everyone an opertunity to become a DP and play the save.

Also should it be instituted, DP's shouldn't be punished unless they make a trend of being late.

Of course then there's the question of what happens with those in attendence expecting the online session...

They decided to show up in the chatroom to watch the session and discuss, however the DP has not shown up to play the session or tell them he can't do it. Should they be able to take up the save at some point and have their own session since they showed up?

Part of me says yes as I think back to the old Chain of Command system where online sessions were assumed and if the primary DP wasn't there it would go down a chain of candidates.

But Part of me says no, because we don't have that system, and we don't want to have 2 theoretically legitimate saves at once.


In order for such a law to be implemented though all of the below must be satified in the law
A.) A DP officially announces if a session will be offline or online
B.) If a DP is unable to preform an online session (after announcing the session as being online) he may not start on offline session.
C.) Define exactly what point may another DP take up the save in the absence of the original DP
D.) Define hat will occur if the original DP does return in the middle of the other DP's session.

I think you need to check out my new initiative (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=235230), Falcon. Your first issue is dealt with there.

I am away from the 13th to the 22nd, with the possiblity of giving instructions on the 21st.

This may be a "long shot", but everyone needs to "bow" to citizen input.

In this case, I'm the citizen, which is why the joke fails. :mischief:

Wow, I'm first! Looks like there was a one turn session on the 29th. That was the last one and also the last one of the term? What would be a good target for the first session of the new term?




This would apply only to online sessions, correct? If not, then how does one show up for an off line session?

Target date: what about the 4th-5th?

About offline sessions, I think this covers it (although it definetly needs to be made clearer :)):
"and hasn't posted anything about his absence". If the session was scheduled as offline, than that explains the DP's "absence", as he's playing the save offline :p (by the way the DP still has to check the forums maximally 1 hour before starting to get the latest instructions), if the session was scheduled as online, and the DP can't go online, he shouldn't play to avoid double saves.

Shall I strike the rule about it containing as the original DP's session?

When I play an offline session, I post a "playing now" in the session thread. Almost all of the people who play offline do so because they don't like the chat, or because they can't run the chat and civ on their system. For the very few who don't have an internet connection on that system, they can post a confirmation on their other system that they're going to play. :)

Target date: what about the 4th-5th?

EDIT: Please note that I have revised the scheduled time of the game play session per the investigation settlement reached with Methos and the judiciary.

The session will be held at 8:30 pm on Monday, August 6, eastern US time.

It will be an offline session, I will be the DP and it will be a regular session.

1585 AD Monday, August 6 game play session instruction thread. (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=235361)

There's a question posted in the game play instruciton thread asking how many turns I plan to play. Back in the day 10 turns was standard uless something came up in game that the DP felt should be discussed in the forums. Is that still the rule of thumb we're using?

Depends on the person some people have played around 15 turns... but 10 turns is the standard rule of thumb in my book.

My usual practice as a DP is to aim for an event like a tech finishing if it's less than 15 turns, or up to the number of turns an official might request, as long as their are instructions for that long. On the low side I'd support your right to play fewer than 10 as needed, your choice. :)

The scheduled start for this session is Monday night (August 6).

I'm surprised at this Donsig, as you and I both know it's just calling for a JR. Here's an example:

Technically speaking Monday night goes up until midnight, which by that definition means I have until 11 pm (your time) at the latest to post my instructions. If say you play at 7 pm (your time), which also falls under "Monday night", you would not have my instructions, even though my instructions would have been posted within the legal time frame of your posted time.

I'm asking you to either state a specific time when you plan on playing, or state a specific time when instructions must be posted.

I think he is stating a point, with reference to the last legal case.

There's a question posted in the game play instruciton thread asking how many turns I plan to play. Back in the day 10 turns was standard uless something came up in game that the DP felt should be discussed in the forums. Is that still the rule of thumb we're using?

About ten turns is what we usually do, unless you hit a stop order earlier, or unless you previously announced that you were going to play longer (most of the time until a certain event like a tech finishing).

Play time: Monday Night :rolleyes:

Donsig, could you give us the earliest time the TC will start and the latest time it will end?

Donsig, could you give us the earliest time the TC will start and the latest time it will end?

I think he wants to state a point, since the last case ended as it did, and may actually call for case-law support by the precedence of law.

At least until a new "turnchat act" is ratified.

Donsig, could you give us the earliest time the TC will start and the latest time it will end?

Please note that I have revised the scheduled time of the game play session per the investigation settlement reached with Methos and the judiciary.

The session will be held at 8:30 pm on Monday, August 6, eastern US time.

It will be an offline session, I will be the DP and it will be a regular session.

1585 AD Monday, August 6 game play session instruction thread. (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=235361)

I expect to be done with everything posted by 10 pm eastern US time. The end time is a guess since it's been a long time since I've been DP. Not even sure I remember how to upload saves!

donsig - Got us Liberalism
Hyronymus - Up! Going to kill some Germans?
Dutchfire - Warming Up
DaveShack
Falcon02
Joe Harker

I love to kill some Germans :).

Well, kill of all them, and don't mess up. Max out the odds with promotions (Cover/City Raider)

I would like to request a special session be played in order to learn what great person we will receive. Can the DP play this single turn and if so, when would they be able to do so?

I believe according to our laws, this must be agreed to by our Chieftain.

Sounds decent to me, Hyronymus, do you want to do it? (1 turn for GP and positioning). It won't count as a gameplay session so you'll still be able to kick some German butt :D

hehe, and do not do a preturn ending up in a lawsuit :)

The key thing to avoid a lawsuit is to follow the scheduling initiative. In particular have at least 24 hours notice, and an instruction thread.

So, please, the instructions to be posted in the game session thread are for

the special one turn play?

Best regards,

Right, two different threads are needed, the one turn special thread containing only the instructions up to hitting enter and finding out what kind of GP we get, and the existing thread for the regular session.

So, please, the instructions to be posted in the game session thread are for

the special one turn play?

Best regards,

No. As Dave stated, the DP will create another TCIT for the special session only, so you'll have to post instructions for the special session in that thread and than your instructions for the full turn session in its thread.

The key thing to avoid a lawsuit is to follow the scheduling initiative. In particular have at least 24 hours notice, and an instruction thread.

Thank you for pointing that out. :D

Also, I'm not sure if everyone is aware but I was so tired during my session that once we got nationalism I stopped. I made no unit moves, nor did I pay close attention to what was being started in the cities that had just completed thier builds.

So, the DP should be prepared to move units and check build queues (and don't forget the granary in Berlin like I did!) before pressing enter and getting that great person!

I would like to ask the new DP pool manager to be removed from the DP pool during this term, or if you feel that the current number of DP's is too small, to be skipped for now.

I would like to ask the new DP pool manager to be removed from the DP pool during this term, or if you feel that the current number of DP's is too small, to be skipped for now.

I'm confused, was this a request to remove yourself from the play order or be skipped, or for the new DP pool manager to be removed?

I'll tentatively assume it was a request to be skipped, in which case I'd be up. We can fix things up later if this assumption was wrong.

donsig - played
Hyronymus - played
Dutchfire - skip requested?
DaveShack - UP assuming correct interpretation of skip request
Falcon02
Joe Harker

Allowing for 3 days of discussion and 2 of polling since the last session, the target date should be Wednesday, so...

The next play session is scheduled for Wednesday August 22, 10PM PDT (GMT-7). That's Thursday Aug 23, 0500 GMT. It will be an online regular session, planning for 10 turns, with myself as DP.

I fear I must leave the DP pool.

I find my interest in the current game has waned greatly, as can be gathered by my lack of posts recently. Work has also been taking up more of my time recently which hasn't helped either.

So Farewell...

I fear I must leave the DP pool.


donsig - played
Hyronymus - played
Dutchfire - skip requested
DaveShack - played
Falcon02 - dropped
Joe Harker - UP

I am away from tomorrow till Wednesday, so the turnchat is likey to be a week from Saturday (1st of September?)

Should be on Tuesday or Wednesday no? 5 days...

Can't, i am on holiday and i get back late on Wednesday, then i need to give at least two days notice for people to post instructions. So Saturday is the nearest possible time.

Saturday would be next term. Should we ask Donsig if he wants to play a session during the week to get one in before the term ends?

Perhaps a 2 turn session? :)

That could be done separately, by any willing DP. All we would need is a clear goal, an instruction thread, and 24 hours notice.

We need a firm decision on civics though, because Taj will finish. If we're going to switch it should be before the GA.

Forgot to ask dutchfire, do you want to play? It was never clear if the previous statement was a complete withdrawl from the pool or just a skip. If it was a skip request you'd be up before donsig's 2nd session.

Forgot to ask dutchfire, do you want to play? It was never clear if the previous statement was a complete withdrawl from the pool or just a skip. If it was a skip request you'd be up before donsig's 2nd session

:hmm: That depends, if we're going to do a 2 turn session, then I'm willing to do it. A full 10+ turnchat (probably with a lot of combat too) would be too much though.

I wish to have one more gameplay session in this term but the Designated Player for that gameplay session, Joe Harker, will be on holiday and unable to play anytime sooner than September 1st. Is there any DP available that can hold a gameplay session before the end of this term (end of August)?

I could but I will not nominate myself. I'm already interim-Chieftan and Governor of the Northwestern aimag, that are too many responsibilities and powers that be in my opinion.

I can squeeze it in, but would be hesitant to do so as it would give me 2 sessions in a row. Donsig is the logical choice as next up, if available.

Fair warning, if I don't hear by this time tomorrow that a session has been scheduled by some other DP, I'll be scheduling one for Thursday night Aug 30 at 10PM PDT = 0500 GMT Aug 31.

Fair warning, if I don't hear by this time tomorrow that a session has been scheduled by some other DP, I'll be scheduling one for Thursday night Aug 30 at 10PM PDT = 0500 GMT Aug 31.
What kind of session, for 2 turns?

Come on fellow DP's, speak up!

I can play one tomorrow morning. Here is the announcement, using the format in the current GPSSA proposal:

I (donsig) will play on Tuesday, August 28, 2007 at 1500 GMT (Which I hope is 10 am eastern US time.)

We have no provision for back-up players at this time so there are no authorized back-up DPs for this session.

We are currently on 1695 AD.

It will be an offline session, expected number of turns is no more than 10.

Starting save. (http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/26840/C4DG2_AD-1695_turn8.Civ4SavedGame)

Link to last session. (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=238984)

GPIT for 1695 AD. (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=240617)

Well, 1500 GMT has went and you didn't announce it officially so according to our proposal you cannot play at that time :P. Remember the 24 hours announcement period :P.

EDIT: nvm, I'm on GMT +2. If Daveshack doesn't reply before 14:55 GMT I'll grant the gameplay session to donsig. Please stick around donsig (and join MSN to help me remind).

You missed this? (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=240617)

You missed this? (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=240617)
Why are you asking? Does it fulfill you with joy to point me towards it :lol:?!

I think we have sufficient ability to post conditional orders on the GP usage that we don't really need the 2 turn session, might as well forge ahead with the regular 10.

Thanks Donsig! I didn't really want to play two sessions in a row. :D

Right, how good a governor I am will be illustrated by my next line :P. I went to a computer without Civ4. I have to pass on giving orders but maybe someone feels like impersonating me?!

Well, 1500 GMT has went and you didn't announce it officially so according to our proposal you cannot play at that time :P. Remember the 24 hours announcement period :P.


I announced it in the post right before yours! Remember, the game play scheduling initiative that is currently on the books merely requires an announcement in the forum and not a GPIT. (Though I would like to point out that I posted the GPIT before I posted the announcement that appears right before your post. :D

Yeah, being pampered by my mother severely damages my intelligence :P. I really should eat less too!

Well, I had to cancel the game play session this morning. I've patched to v1.74 but the save is unpatched. I can't reinstall vanilla since I'm on vacation and don't have all the discs with me. Maybe DaveShack can still get a session in before the end of term.

I hope, please tell us if you can, DaveShack.

I can play tomorrow and still give the required 24 hours notice.

Scheduled for Wednesday Aug 29, 10PM MST (GMT-7) 0500 GMT Thursday. Legally, I think officials will need to repost their instructions into the new thread. It won't hurt to do that anyway even if it weren't strictly required.

So, DaveShack, you've patched for the pbem - how will you avoid the same problem I had? Are we getting the save upgraded to v1.74?

I used a dual install. See the "Will of Binaria" thread in the government forum for info on how to have both patch levels active.

Upgrading the DG save is a problem because we decided to use "lock modified assets". In a PBEM you upgrade the save using the admin password, or to be more specific by deleting it. For a SP game, there may be a utility to remove the random admin PW that the game uses to lock assets. I haven't researched this in detail, just know what the technique would need to be if the programmers used the same method to lock SP and MP games.

It can be done, as I've had it done before, but do we really want to? This game is getting close to being over, so I hate to have the work done to "fix" it when we're this close to finishing. Seems like a waste of effort to me.

Methos
how long will the game go do you think, till Christmas or longer?

There is a new thread in the citizens forum on patching (or not).