How many points are needed from papal favor to get the victory? I am charlemagne and at about 100 and dominating everybody else there and I wanna know how close to victory I am.

Alright I got it. I can't believe nobody is talking about this scenario. This scenario was a blast to play. This Europe map is the exact map that should have been used for all European scenarios or just custom games (Needs to go a tad farther west in Spain).

I figured out that on chieftain I believe it was that you need 150 points in favor with the Papacy to win the game. Lots of fun. Became the Holy Roman Emperor after I burned a couple of peoples' cities, captured others and spread Christianity. Great scenario.

This one uses the advanced start rules didn't it. Since I'm a little lost on what to spend the points on so I have decided to wait with this until I'm a little more experienced with that. But a hint from someone who have played it on what works and what is good would be nice.

I was somewhat aggravated by the cost of settlers. Would you recommend building more cities with your initial points to offset the cost? I figured that technologies were way too expensive, and I want at least one worker at the get-go...

I was somewhat angered that the game didn't automatically place Constantinople in the right place--it looks like Athens is at least close, though.

I haven't tried this one yet, but I'm curious to why they decided to use the Advanced Starts feature in this one.

This is an historical scenario so all of the cities should already be there.

Well once I finished the game and was looking at the game recap I noticed that all the other civs just started with one city. Using the advanced start I had three initial cities in great spots as both Charlemagne and the Lombary guy. I put a worker in each city, a population increase in each city, a culture expansion in each city, an archer in each city, and then used the rest on things like wineries, mines, farms, pastures and the likes.

Fun scenario.

This has been my favorite mod in BTS (and I'm a FFH player who was greatly anticipating Age of Ice).

I played on Prince and as I recall, it took about 160 Papal favor points as Charlemagne to get that victory.

Charlemagne probably has the best starting position. I began with 3 cities with 2-4 pop, 2 workers, a few improvements (no more than the cities could work), some resources connected with rivers and roads, and some Chariots for exploration. It seemed to work well, as I was able to skyrocket ahead in points. Going for Papal favor is definitely a good investment, as the Papal Pikemen are very solid (8:strength: +100% vs Mounted, +35% City Defense, I think) and come pretty frequently. Also, having two Nonchristian civs on my borders (Saxons and Bavarians) allowed for some early warfare without angering the major powers or upsetting the Pope.

Most of the other civs (AI) built only 2 cities, and they seemed to use more points to increase their population, build improvements, and to build units. I'm not sure that this was a better tactic. I think the scenario would be more interesting if the AI was a bit more aggressive. I did give gifts pretty eagerly, but I never once had another major civ declare war on me, except when I accepted a vassal who as already at war.

I do have one major complaint: there is really no reason to research and build the Swordsman units, given how easily you can get Macemen and how much more that technology has to offer. I would have like to have Pikemen, Macemen, and Heavy Swordsmen all be uniquely useful. In the end you're going to prefer Macemen as Pikemen and Heavy Swordsmen are weaker and their bonuses are too circumstantial and small respectively to offset the difference.

I actually gave this a try today and it was pretty fun. First gave it a shot as Lombardi and didn't do so well, probably making only one city at the start was a bad idea.

I restarted as Charlemagne and started with two cities, I actually didn't start with any units and used the 10 turns of universal peace to make some archers. Luckily nobody took advantage of me although you can build archers pretty quick and they get bonuses due to Charlemagne's Protective trait.

I won by being declared Holy Roman Emperor and mostly was at war with Bavaria partly due to the fact they had a Relic (which they annoyingly kept moving from town to town).

Declaring war on Arabia when the Pope asks you to gives you huge favor points (and is almost completely safe because they never bother to come attack you). It almost makes winning the favour way too easy.

I just built one super city on Prince and had no problems as Charlemagne, as I was miraculously able to build cities at will from the start, growing to nearly 7 cities before I really felt the need to focus on my military. I built an archer, and a missionary to go with every settler, and quickly outstripped every one else in terms of papal favor. The capital city started with a barracks, a temple, two workers, and a mine. I hooked up the food resources and cottage spammed a good deal also to keep my economy growing.

I love the elite papal pikemen! There are many ways to have a great start, but I would think that two workers is the most critical thing to start with.

I started this one up as Lombardy, so far it's been fun. The main problems are that the AI is weak at Advanced Starts--and, as mentioned, it should probably be a fixed start instead. Also, as mentioned above, the unit balance may not be ideal, although the Papal Pikemen are, appropriately, really nice units.

Although I'm wondering if you can declare war on the Pope. I wouldn't expect it to help my Papal Favor, but come on, all he has at the moment is a couple of archers . . .

True, this game is far too easy to win without declaring war on your rivals, I'd like to see more events (some from the time maybe?) and more politics than it being a case to declare war on the arab, kill a non-believer and rise to victory!

Yeah you can stay at war with Saladin and he won't ever come to attack you and you get major points for it.

Lombardy has a great starting location if you put a couple cities there. Charlemagne probably does have the best spot but when I played at him I got ganged up on by about 4 civs and didn't finish the game.

And no, I don't think you can declare war on Rome or become vassal of his.

I actually gave this a try today and it was pretty fun. First gave it a shot as Lombardi and didn't do so well, probably making only one city at the start was a bad idea.

I restarted as Charlemagne and started with two cities, I actually didn't start with any units and used the 10 turns of universal peace to make some archers. Luckily nobody took advantage of me although you can build archers pretty quick and they get bonuses due to Charlemagne's Protective trait.

I won by being declared Holy Roman Emperor and mostly was at war with Bavaria partly due to the fact they had a Relic (which they annoyingly kept moving from town to town).

Declaring war on Arabia when the Pope asks you to gives you huge favor points (and is almost completely safe because they never bother to come attack you). It almost makes winning the favour way too easy.

I really like this mod. I was Elanor of Aquitaine and ruled Spain/ a bit of france. First, the relic appeared in Charlemagnes' cities. I decided too seige the city, but as it fell, the relic left, I chased it around with a swordsman ( I had no cavalry) and it escaped. My unit was attacked and the relic moved, and dissapeared. I never found it. I made peace and attacked the Saracens. My defenses in Spain were lax, as Europe was were most watrs were. The saracens appear with 10 camel archers, and take 2 cities before my papal pikemen took them down. By the time I fully recovered, all except the saracens were christain, so there was no one to attack. Gundonbad kept attacking me with massive armies, and Chilperic was captipulated by Charlamenge, who attacked me with Gundonbad. I barely survived, and was left with 2 cities.

A fun thing to do is declare war on the pope. Everyone attacks you. you can't attack him through normal ways, but Saladin will ask you to help him in the war. I went down to 2 points, adopted no state religion, and Byzantine attacked and crushed me. It was awesome.

I played as Lombardy on Prince, made 4 initial cities each with a worker and an archer (maybe skipped on a worker or two), and have done well so far. I'm attacking another Christian nation, trying to get his relic, leading in favor, and one of the strongest guys on the board.

I actually like the scenario. If nothing else, it's a good way to learn about the advanced start mechanics. It could use more random events to add some spice to it though.

Same, I give the 'thumbs up' to the Charlemagne scenario.

I played Charley but I'm looking forward to playing harder civs. Anyone played a hard one ?

I played the one in northern france (the one with Paris), I have forgotten it's name, while I was wondering where my horses where I was constantly (okey they took turns to make war against me) in war with all my neighbours (and beyond). Even though I was leading in points I gave up when they finally made war all at once and I still didn't got any horses.

great mod - lots of fun!
don't know what else to say...

I love this mod, though I wish it went just a little further east and west. I don't think I played this map all that well, but it was fun.

I started with 3 cities in great spots, and had lots of production. Though what I found was that I was always at war. This is probably because I didn't pop out enough military units right off the bat, and I didn't gift anything to anyone but the pope.

It was Bavaria, Saxony, and the Anglo-Saxons who kept pestering me. I was normally in battle with two of them at once during the whole game. The Anglo's landed a sizable army near the baltic sea that really surprised me, and then the saxons took my major production city. I almost quit (at war and down to 2 provinces) but I pressed on and have about 10 cities now, with around 120 favor points.

Justinian has gotten HUGE, he controls the entire right side of the map, from top to bottom, with huge armies and around 4 vassals (that are no slouch themselves). He just attacked me and I don't know if I'm going to be able to hold out long enough to get enough favor points! Seems so close!

I came here to see how many points I needed to win, because I don't think I can hold Big J off for long. I'm on Noble difficulty, here's hoping... wish me luck!

Dear Beld, you are going to miss one turn away or so. Which BTW is some sort of norm for in this game (I've noticed).

Just won as Lombardy--I needed 150 papal favor points to win on Prince (jumped from 149 to 152), although I randomly got another 10 at the end for a grand total of 162. Justinian beat up on me at the beginning, and then started vassalizing the eastern side of the map. Eleanor, after I was invading her, ran to Justinian as a vassal to escape doom, but I had enough cities to build Christian Temples/Monasteries/Cathedrals in to win by that point.

The key is to use those crossbows in your stacks--it is one of the best units in the game (heavies have 10 Str, 1 First Strike, +50% vs. melee). And, being that I led in papal favor all game, I had something like 15 Papal Pikemen by the end, which are awesome units (8 Str, +25% city defense, +35% vs. melee, +100% vs. mounted). Good diplomacy always helps...I got something like 20 favor points just by staying at war with the Muslims the entire time and using my caravels to pick off their ships. Not a real big investment for that much favor and free papal pikemen. :)

ya you can stay at war with the heathens the whole war and not actually have to fight him at all except the random ship in the Mediterranean.

One minor question that keeps bothering me, though...

Where are the "Greedy Ottomans"(according to the manual) ?

Anyone seen them? were they cut out at some point? Did someone mistake Saladin/Arabs/North Africa for the Ottomans?

Probably--I never saw the Ottoman Empire in my game. Unless, towards the end, they show up in the East and attack Constantinople. That would be pretty sweet, although Constantinople is never in the right place on this map.

I finally won this one, and it's about 160 to 166 papal points.
Charlemagne is pretty much the easiest civ to win though. Try Gundobad :crazyeye:

How many points are needed from papal favor to get the victory? I am charlemagne and at about 100 and dominating everybody else there and I wanna know how close to victory I am.


My own opinion on this scenario is to beeline Engineering (castles), then Guilds (crossbows), then Courtly manners. And never trade a tech except in the very beginning.

Gundobad should not be so hard so long as you utilize the advanced start correctly.

It's a pain when all the pagan players start converting. I was at war with Saxons, and was beating them, then they converted, and I started losing papal favour. I think christiantity should have a really slow spread rate, to keep this from happening, and encourage players to build missionaries. BTW do you get favour for converting pagans to chrishtianity.

Knights were largely unnecessary to win the game. I don't think I ever finished the Tech tree.

I played as the Cha/Exp Lombards, I think his name was Albion, although I might be wrong. I don't get why Charlemagne is easier...I thought it was nice that the Pope had my back (literally), and he wouldn't declare war on me. So that's one approach I didn't need to guard too much. I had only a Northern and a Western front for awhile, and for a brief conflict with Justinian an Eastern front.

I found Alboin and Charlie easy because they have good expansion traits, and have plenty of empty room to quick settle. With Imp, Charlie can easily blow the AI away in favor and points just by settling empty lands quickly and spreading missionaries simultaneously.

Gundobad is tough, being surrounded. Though I tend to play more passively against the neighbors. I don't start wars, just finish them. Eleanor has a lot of potential with AGG, FIN. For some reason though the AI dogpiled on me, including Justin and all the Saxons and Bavarians. All I did to them was deny open borders so I could settle Spain at my leisure. That made me realize the importance of beelining Castles to the front line cities.

I found that knights clinch the game very quickly. Charlie with a wolf pack of knights quickly took down the bavarians and saxons, so quick I wanted to attack Saladin, but I got crowned. Heavy Crossbow is pretty much the key until the knights, but I found them pretty slow for taking cities.

I just finished playing the Scenario for the first time and I'v gotta say, next to Rhye's and Fall it's my favorite of BTS. I played as Gundobad and being surrounded made the game even easier, since I was able to take out two of four papal favour opponents within the first 15 turns.

I had to take out the first one, simply because he was too close and then took out Paris because it got the first Relic and I wanted to keep getting the somewhat overly powerful papal units (for early rush anyway). From there on it was just too easy. Going with the "declare war against Saladin" strategy is a pretty good idea, because the only thing that happened during that "war" was one of his caravells destroying one of my fisherboats. Taking out Charlemagne was pretty easy too (beacause I had like 8 straight turns in which I got the papal units). I actually wanted to see if wiping out the papal favor opponents causes automatic win, but couldn't declare war against the Lombardy dude, becuase he chose to become Justinian's vassal. So I went along with wiping out the Saxons and the Bavarians for an easy papal favor win. One thing that bothered me, was the uselessness of the "special" units for this scenario. I didn't build a single one.

Anyway it was loads of fun, even though I'd really love to be able to play as the Pope or at least be able to declare war against him (which wasn't all that uncommon in the middle ages, so I wonder why taking out Rome and crowning yourself pope isn't a victory option).

I just finished playing the Scenario for the first time and I'v gotta say, next to Rhye's and Fall it's my favorite of BTS. I played as Gundobad and being surrounded made the game even easier, since I was able to take out two of four papal favour opponents within the first 15 turns.

I had to take out the first one, simply because he was too close and then took out Paris because it got the first Relic and I wanted to keep getting the somewhat overly powerful papal units (for early rush anyway). From there on it was just too easy. Going with the "declare war against Saladin" strategy is a pretty good idea, because the only thing that happened during that "war" was one of his caravells destroying one of my fisherboats. Taking out Charlemagne was pretty easy too (beacause I had like 8 straight turns in which I got the papal units). I actually wanted to see if wiping out the papal favor opponents causes automatic win, but couldn't declare war against the Lombardy dude, becuase he chose to become Justinian's vassal. So I went along with wiping out the Saxons and the Bavarians for an easy papal favor win. One thing that bothered me, was the uselessness of the "special" units for this scenario. I didn't build a single one.

Anyway it was loads of fun, even though I'd really love to be able to play as the Pope or at least be able to declare war against him (which wasn't all that uncommon in the middle ages, so I wonder why taking out Rome and crowning yourself pope isn't a victory option).

Saladin will ask you to if you have a good enough relationship.

It took me 168 Papal favors to win the game. I think it lingered at 168 for a while before I won.

Declaring war on Saladin is probably the best way to gain Papal points, since Saladin doesn't try to mount an attack on you.

I took over one of his cities, but end up having to just defend it because he sends wave after wave of catapults and camel archers at me. I don't think that I was doing anything to increase my Papal favor, but after a while he named me Emperor.

Probably--I never saw the Ottoman Empire in my game. Unless, towards the end, they show up in the East and attack Constantinople. That would be pretty sweet, although Constantinople is never in the right place on this map.


You'd probably need a 700-year scenario for that to take place, though other spots on the map were controlled by the Ottoman Turks well before 1453.

Having Varyagi, Bulgars, and/or Prussians on the map would be nice, but a cool scenario in any event.

Playing as Charlie on Emperor, I used the startup to build 4 cities (controversial!) and no military - just granaries and 3/4 workers. I was able to build baracks and libraries before I needed to build archers.

Just a tip to save people wasting money or turns on early military. :)

Fun Scenario, I need 160 points to be declared The Holy Roman Emporer